The Fear That’s Secretly Hurting Your Relationship with Dr. John Delony

Summary

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The Jefferson Fisher Podcast

Episode: The Fear That’s Secretly Hurting Your Relationship
Guest: Dr. John Delony
Date: September 16, 2025
Host: Jefferson Fisher / Civility Media

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the hidden fear of abandonment that undermines our relationships and communication. Host Jefferson Fisher sits down (in-person, in Delony's studio) with Dr. John Delony, best-selling author, mental health expert, and crisis response specialist, to unpack anxiety’s impact on how we connect with loved ones, why “leakage” happens in arguments, and the deep roots of trust issues. Together, they offer practical, compassionate strategies for having braver, healthier conversations—especially when anxiety or fear tempt us to self-sabotage or shut down.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Imaginary Conversations & The Anxiety Spiral

Timestamps: 01:39 – 04:08

• Most anxiety in communication stems from not having real conversations, instead playing them out in our heads.
• People often assign motives or intentions to others without discussion, leading to imaginary arguments—and our bodies process them as real.
• Delony: “Your body doesn’t know the difference whether we’re having a real fight or an imaginary one.” (02:54)

The Root of Anxiety: Fear of Abandonment

Timestamps: 04:08 – 06:40

• At its core, anxiety is often driven by the fear of losing connection—being abandoned and left alone.
• Dr. Delony’s marriage retreats reveal that simply stating “I’ll never leave” is profoundly moving for couples.
• Delony: “Anxiety at its root is a fear of: you’re going to be all by yourself.” (05:45)

Leakage: When Suppressed Feelings Surface Elsewhere

Timestamps: 07:57 – 09:28

• Suppressed emotions or resentment (“leakage”) show up in other conflicts—small arguments become proxies for deeper pain.
• These often manifest as disproportionate reactions to small annoyances: “your body will have to exhale all that stuff you shove down.” (08:23)
• Regular check-ins and communication prevent this build-up.

Family Dynamics & Relationship Patterns

Timestamps: 10:10 – 17:44

• Our communication style is deeply influenced by our relationship with our parents—unresolved issues (“unfinished business”) can shape whom we’re drawn to and how we relate.
• Many seek to fill gaps from parental relationships in romantic partnerships, often unconsciously.
• Dr. Delony on parent-child dynamics: “You marry your unfinished business.” (15:47, 55:59)

Childhood Experiences, Self-Worth, & Adult Insecurities

Timestamps: 16:33 – 18:32

• Even minor childhood experiences (“you look pudgy in that shirt”) can set up lifelong insecurities, driving us to chase external validation.
• Dr. Delony shares personal and family anecdotes about how these wounds manifest (e.g., wanting to be chosen over a parent’s interests).

Abandonment Fears in Adult Communication

Timestamps: 20:45 – 22:24

• Fear of abandonment makes people avoid hard conversations, believing one argument might spell the end of a relationship.
• “Proxy wars” replace direct communication—people argue about surface issues rather than addressing the core problem (e.g., fear of leaving).

Practical Advice: Clarity, Honesty & “Calm is Contagious”

Timestamps: 25:58 – 34:09

• In crisis response, staying calm is essential: “Calm is contagious.” (25:58)
• Directness is kindness: Being clear and factual, even with hard news, is more compassionate than ambiguity. “Facts are your friends.” (30:10)
• Good communication means stating intentions and feelings directly (using “I” statements), not expecting others to mind-read.

Trust, Actions vs. Words, and Relationship Health

Timestamps: 39:45 – 42:51

• Trust is built or broken more through consistent actions than words.
• If partners have significant financial secrecy or hide aspects of their life (like phone activity), trust issues need to be addressed honestly.
• Delony shares, “Behavior is a language.” (39:58)

Self-Validation, Identity, and Belonging

Timestamps: 47:23 – 55:45

• Both Delony and Fisher reflect personally on feeling like imposters in professional or high-profile settings, emphasizing that almost everyone questions if they “deserve their seat at the table.”
• Public praise (e.g., going viral or getting famous) can feel good but is “divorced from reality” and often heightens inner anxiety and loneliness.
• Everyone, no matter their status, struggles with these feelings.

Tools for Healing & Growth

• "You marry your unfinished business": Many relationship challenges stem from unresolved childhood wounds.
• Letter to your younger self: Imagine (or write to) your 9- or 16-year-old self, showing compassion for the ways they tried to cope/survive.
• Create margin: Building a life with emotional and practical margin (financial flexibility, supportive relationships, healthy boundaries) is vital for handling anxiety and conflict well.
• Seeking therapy isn't weakness: Even experts see therapists to uncover blind spots and continue healing.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Imaginary Arguments:
  “I have this imaginary communication that I never have. And then you’re just out there having coffee and I walk out and I am halfway through a fight that we did not even know we were in...”
  — Dr. John Delony (02:44)

• On Fear of Abandonment:
  “All this theater and all this build-up, is there gonna be a breaking of a relationship we can’t come back from? ... I think anxiety at its root is a fear of: you’re going to be all by yourself.”
  — Dr. John Delony (05:45)

• Leakage Explained:
  “It’s your body having to exhale all that stuff you shove down ... it will build and build ... but it will come out in addiction, it will come out some way.”
  — Dr. John Delony (08:23)

• Childhood & Self-Worth:
  “At that moment, I learned that my beauty is extrinsic. Somebody else gets to judge that and pass it on to me. And that just becomes a thing you chase.”
  — Dr. John Delony (16:35)

• Proxy Wars in Relationships:
  “Most of the time, we end up having a lot of proxy wars ... we fight at that surface level and never get to the actual issue.”
  — Dr. John Delony (21:11)

• On Calm in Crisis:
  “Calm is contagious ... if I show up running, I’ve just brought my crazy to this madness.”
  — Dr. John Delony (25:58)

• On Facts & Clarity:
  “Facts are your friends ... the music stopped, the lights are on, there’s no more dancing.”
  — Dr. John Delony (30:10, 31:40)

• Actions vs Words in Trust:
  “Behavior is a language ... it doesn’t matter what you say if, every time I walk in a room, you flip your phone over.”
  — Dr. John Delony (39:58)

• Imposter Syndrome Universal:
  “Very few people believe they are worth sitting in the seat they’re sitting in.”
  — Dr. John Delony (55:32)

• Self-Healing Exercise:
  “Just close your eyes and imagine your 9-year-old self ... what would you tell her? Right that kid a letter ... it’s being compassionate with the decisions you made when you were a kid.”
  — Dr. John Delony (56:18)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:39: Imaginary conversations and anxiety spirals
• 04:08: The core fear driving anxiety: abandonment
• 07:57: “Leakage”—why surface fights are about deeper pain
• 10:10: How our parents shape adult relationships
• 15:47 & 55:59: “You marry your unfinished business”
• 16:33: Childhood self-worth wounds
• 20:45: Fear leads to conflict avoidance
• 21:11: “Proxy wars” in communication
• 25:58: Calm in crisis: “Calm is contagious”
• 30:10: Honesty, clarity, and the kindness of being direct
• 39:58: Actions as the language of trust
• 47:23: Public scrutiny, imposter syndrome, and anxiety
• 56:18: Letter to your younger self: Compassion & healing

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Takeaways & Actionable Strategies

• Recognize when you’re engaging in “imaginary conversations” and seek real, honest connection instead.
• Understand that anxiety is often about fear of being left or alone—naming and facing that fear is the first step to healing.
• Regularly check in with yourself and loved ones to prevent “leakage” and resentment.
• Directness is kindness in communication; use “I” statements and get clear about what you feel or need.
• Trust is proven through small, consistent behaviors, not just words.
• Everyone feels unworthy sometimes, even (and maybe especially) those in high-status roles.
• Practice self-compassion by acknowledging the wounds and coping strategies of your younger self.
• Build emotional and practical “margin” to weather the storms of life and relationships.
• Normalize therapy and ongoing inner work—healing’s a lifelong journey.

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This episode delivers deep empathy, professional wisdom, and practical advice for anyone ready to move past fear and build healthier, more honest relationships—starting with their next big conversation.

Transcript

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Packages by Expedia. You were made to occasionally take the.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Hard route to the top of the Eiffel Tower.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

We were made to easily bundle your trip Expedia made to travel flight inclusive packages are atoll protected.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Welcome to the Jefferson Fisher podcast where I'm on a mission to make your next conversation the one that changes everything. If you feel like this looks a little bit different, because it is a little bit different. My family's up here around Nashville, checking out the area, saying hi to some friends. And while I was up here, I, I contacted one of my very best friends, said, hey, why don't I just come and talk to you in your own studio? It is the one, the only Dr. John Deloney. What's going on, man? Have you ever been on this side of the chair?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I've never been on this side of the chair. This is fantastic.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, this is awesome. So we're recording in the Dr. John DeLoney show studio, which is way cooler than mine, I gotta say. I really, really like it. Your team's incredible. So it's been great to sit here and be with everybody. In case you're not familiar with Dr. John DeLoney, not only is he a very good friend, he is somebody with two, not just one PhD, two PhDs, he is a best selling author. He is a mental health expert.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You're kind of a stretch.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Well, expertise in crisis response.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

There you go.

[Jefferson Fisher]

And all things related to navigating anxiety. How'd I do there, man?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah, you rattled that off better than I did.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. Well, man, thank you so much for just sitting down with me for a little bit and having a conversation. So. Biggest thing that you know in my podcast and my, my whole area is communication. So one of the things I'm most curious about or what are some of the things that we do in communication that make our anxiety worse or better.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Good question. Probably we don't communicate at all. We hold it and then we imagine a thing happens. I get inside your head and decide why you did what you just did or why you didn't do what you, what you should have done, what I think you should have done. And I have an imaginary interaction with you, and then I have a physiological response to that fight or that discussion we just had that we didn't have.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And so as I've traveled across the country, I hear this the most, that people have that imaginary conversation in the shower. It's, it's the only time. There's no phone, there's no nothing, and they're in there. And the hot Water's shooting down their back. And they think to themselves, man, Jefferson didn't even call. He's like, that dude never calls. And he. And then I'm off to the races, and so I have this imaginary communication that I never have. And then you're just out there having coffee and I walk out and I am halfway through a fight that we did not even know we were in, that you're like, hey, man. And I'm like, don't hate me. And it's all off to the races.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right? I definitely, I have those conversations in the car. Mine are in the car. If it's quiet in the car, you kind of just have that argument out in your head and you're like, oh. And all of a sudden you kind of get worked up how you're going to respond.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That's the thing I didn't know is your body doesn't know the difference whether we're having a real fight or an imaginary one. It just starts to respond. And so you get to work and you're fired up, and then maybe your wife will text you and be like, have a great day. And you're like, oh, have a great. Right. You're already off to the. Off to it.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, yeah. Do you find that when people are having anxiety, like in that moment when they're coming to you and they're like, I just feel. I mean, your book, Building a Non Anxious Life, you wrote all about this. It's a wonderful book. For anybody who has not listened to this, I grabbed it. You need to get it. When I first had my. I've shared. When I first had my panic attack, you're the one of the first people that I reached out to, like, what is this? What is this feeling? I don't know what's going on of that. In communication especially. What I have found that builds a lot of anxiety is when we not only, like you said, have these assumptions of we're doing the thinking for them, we're already assuming. But also it's the fear of the unknown, of, I don't know what's going to. To happen. I'm doing everything wrong. What do you find in your expertise and the people that have come to you that when they're in that state of anxiety, what's the number one thing that's on their mind? Like, what do they need fixed?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So I think I answer it this way. I don't think outside of a bell curve. Right. There's way over here and way over here. But I think most people assume that if I'm anxious, there's something wrong with me, and I don't operate that way. I think usually your body's right to answer that question at the deepest level. Whenever we do a marriage retreat, one of the things I always do halfway through the thing is to have everybody look directly at their spouse and say the words I say. Only say this if you mean it. I will never leave. And beneath, like the how to fight and how to. How to repair relationships and sex and money, all those things, I'll never leave. Without fail, it's just a room of sobbing people. Because I think beneath that, that layer is my boss is going to fire me. My son is going to turn his head and walk away. My wife is. If she knew, she's going to leave. And so all this theater and all this build up, is there gonna be a breaking of a relationship that we can't come back from? And so there's something powerful about having a stake in the ground. I'm never gonna leave. And when you're tethered that way, when your boss is like, I'm never gonna fire you when you're tethered in now we can actually do that thing right. Which is have that interaction.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Because the. The stake in the ground, that's. That's where their mind goes in the.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Anxiety, that's where your body is solving for. If you say what you really need, if you say what you want, if you say what you're really frustrated about, they're. Because maybe dad did when you were a kid, or maybe mom did. Or maybe mom was there, but she just scrolled the day away.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And so she was present, but she was gone. And there's this sense of they're gonna leave. And I think anxiety at its root is a fear of you're all. You're gonna be all by yourself. And if they're gone, they're gone. And so we create all this stuff.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

All this theater around that to protect.

[Jefferson Fisher]

That, to protect that, to really stop from being alone.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Right.

[Jefferson Fisher]

I find that in conversation a lot of times when people, especially in relationships, it could be a surface level, little conversation, a little argument, but it's very deeply rooted in a trigger and an insecurity that has to do with abandonment, that has to do with I'm not enough. It has to do with they're going to leave in their mind, even though their body's saying the very worst possible outcome, which is being alone. But that's not what their mind is saying in that moment. Their mind is saying, this is all your fault. This is all that's happening to you. Do you find. I mean, does that resonate with what you see?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Well. And yeah, if you're a kid and mom is scrolling. The biology is your body's trying to solve. What's more. Why is that thing more beautiful than me? Why does that thing have more value than me?

[Jefferson Fisher]

That's great.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I remember when Hank, my son, when I moved in Asheville, the one gift I bought myself was. Was major league ticket to watch the Astros. Lifelong Houston Astro fan, obsessive. That's the one thing I bought myself. And I would get home from my new job, and it was too much, and it was just. I'd never been the chief officer at a place like that big. I was get home and I would collapse. And so we went from being in Texas, we played baseball all the time. Him and I were always playing catch, whatever, to watching it.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And one day, he's five or six. There's no manipulation here at all. He just said, dad, do you love me as much as the Astros? And I just went. Turned it off. Like that's it. Because he was just asking. We used to do these things together. We're not.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yes.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I wonder. What is this awesome? Why is this awesome? And his body's asking, why is that more important to your father than to me? Because, ex, a thousand years ago, that meant you're on your own, and kids can't be on their own. And I have. I have taken that with me all the way till I'm 40 years old, 50 years old, 60 years old.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Is that. If there's a fracture in relationship, it's because I'm unlovable. I did a thing or I'm not as good as. And, man, I will fight you for that. I will cuddle up next to you. I will squash myself for 30 years, any of wants and desires, whatever. I'll squash all that just to be in a relationship with you. And eventually it explodes. And counseling, we call that leakage. It will find a way out. And usually it's.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Can you define that for the listeners what leakage is?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah, it's this sense. It's. Your body will have to exhale all that stuff you shove down. And so if you're scared about finances, it will come out yelling at somebody for leaving the cereal bowl out. Pick up your stuff.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Like, right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

It's nothing to do with it. Or it will build and build. I'm going to overgeneralize it here. But it's often the wife of 35 years who worked a full time job and took care of 100% of the housework. And every time husband came home from eight hours at the golf course and was like, hey, I'm going to move all of our money out of this 401k into this investment. My buddy's got it. Like all that comes out in this.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And then he's like, what are you so mad about? The shoes are by the door. And it's like, you know, and it all comes out.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And so if you will be diligent about checking in once a week, if you do those things to have exit straight. I mean I, I think of it like a steam engine. Like if you have those check in points, if you have those connection points, it doesn't build and build and build, but it will come out, right? Yeah, it'll come out in addiction. It will come out some way.

[Jefferson Fisher]

I can definitely see that. Like my, my own mom, she was a type that her mother didn't give her anything. She was the type that if her mother lent her A$92, she better come back with A$92, you know, where are my pennies?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Right.

[Jefferson Fisher]

And so she would have two to three jobs. She paid for her own wedding, her own wedding dress. I mean, she did everything. And so I can see that now as an adult. Like that comes out in so many different ways of managing. Always having to be very. I would say she would, she would agree that sometimes it would be overbearing. It was always very tight to keep that. So that resonates with me on this, this element of leakage, of never feeling like she was getting support.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And it comes out in weird ways.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, in very weird ways that I didn't appreciate back then, but now I do. I'm curious with, I want to talk about parents now, like adults, our parents, to where. How do you feel that we communicate? Let me rephrase this. How does our relationship with our parents impact how we communicate now? For better or for worse, and let's take it in the worst category, if you don't have a good relationship with your father, for example, there might be somebody listening who didn't have a good relationship or didn't really have a father or a bad relationship with their mother, really didn't have a mother, how do you find that, that now when you're talking to them and they come to you and they have those kind of, what would it say, the mom issues or the dad issues, how do you find that that resonates in their life?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I mean, it ricochets through every square inch of their life. You go looking for a maternal figure or a father figure in all kinds of ways. And really, underneath that, you try to find people to plug that gap that you can anchor into. And so now I say this flippantly, but it's. It's. I say it because I have to, because it's. It's devastating. We've created the loneliest generation in human history. We all connect. Like, that's a big. Like, that's why I call you. Or I'll like, hey, let's see each other in person. Because otherwise it can get real quick that we just text. That's it. And that's just our life. And so your body will anchor into a political party now. Your body will anchor into a sports team. Your body will anchor into anything. Desperately seeking that one, that one call. Hey, John, I just want to let you know I'm really proud of you. Yeah, I had. There's a psychiatrist. I was at a business event, and she was. She had managed to stay open during COVID and she basically gobbled up all the other business. And so when Covid lifted, she had, like, her practice was crushing, and she had hired several new people, and she was. Well. Then a few years later, she said, hey, we're making more money than we know what to do with. And we've got this. I've hired this many new psychiatrists. We're crushing this way. And I just interrupted her. And I'm going to be honest with you, I was throwing spaghetti at the wall just to guess, right? It's not like I'm a savant. But I said, he hadn't called yet, has he? She looked at me and I said, your dad has not called and said, hey, I'm really proud of you. And she just started sobbing. And it was this. This engine chasing this thing, right? And the thing that we don't do well as a culture is grief. Like, put a period at the end of that relationship. We don't do that well. And so we will chase it and chase it and chase it in all kind of ways, or we'll stay angry about it and frustrated about it. How many times. I want to ask you this. I'll tell you. How many times have I shown up to Thanksgiving thinking, this is going to be the different one, right? This one will be different, right? Every year it's the same, right? It's the same exact. The dynamic is the same. The exchanges are the same. My mom ending up in tears is the same. Me and my Sister making inappropriate jokes and my brother trying to. It always ends the same. And so 25 to 30% of every call that comes into my show is about fractured adult relationship. We cut our parents off, they cut us off. That's. That's. It's an. It's wild to me. And also you. We. We talk a lot about the. That boomer generation that's starting to age pretty quickly. They've accumulated all this stuff. They don't want to hang out with us. They don't. Right. They don't want to be a part of this life. And to their credit, like, this world doesn't make sense.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You have to attach this device to your car so that you can get to it. The whole thing is just too much. And so it's easier just to. And to surround yourself. And then everything is pumped into their mind as it's all coming down. You're gonna die, you're gonna die, you're gonna die.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So I get that. But there's just this wild fracture. And so for me, for the people I talk to, it's often making peace with this is your parents or lack of. And you have to put a period at the end of that, and you have to be sad for a while. And then you have to go do the hard work and say, who is going to fill what person?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Not group that you're trying to anchor into what person. What people are going to fill that for you? Is that a local church? Is that your neighbor? I. I live 17 hours away from my parents now. I've got a couple of surrogate older men in my life that serve that for me. Right. And surrogate older women in my life, they're never going to be my mom or my dad. I don't want them to be, but, man, I got to have some presence. Right. That will say, you did a good job on that.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, I definitely, in my own life, I have one set of grandparents that. They'll never come visit you. If you want to spend time with them, you got to go up to them. And kids can only be around for a little bit. And it's just. That's. That's it. That's the way it was. And I look at his life, and he was sent off to a boarding school when he was like, eight. And Harley saw his parents and he just never really had that. And you can see even now, he never really grew up with a lot of that father figure stuff. And so he never. He didn't pass that down. And that's where it went. But I. What I find in communication, a lot of the questions that I get, that same type of thing where somebody, it's usually a spouse will put the other spouse on like a pedestal to where they want, how they wanted their dad or their mom to be. And then when they communicate, it's. They're almost talking to the parent, always to their parent, not really to the spouse. It's them, they have like this, this gold standard that their spouse can never meet. Could never.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Because it's not real.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly. And it's all in their head of what they wanted their dad to be or their mom to be.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

It's in their nervous system. It's. It's called the old marriage counseling phrases. You marry your unfinished business and say that again. You marry, you marry your unfinished business. And it's not an adult in your head kind of thing. It is a 9 year old kid saying, what was it about me that was less important than your job? What was it about me that was less important than your beauty regimen or whatever or. And it can be as benign as this. And it. We way overuse the word trauma. So I don't want to do that. But if you were 9 years old during the low fat era, right, when the only thing that mattered was that you were skinny, that was it, right? That was it. And Jane Fonda and the, the leggings and the cardio fast 20.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yes.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everyone was on a diet 24 hours.

[Jefferson Fisher]

My mom had all the tapes.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Oh gosh, never watched them. Videos, tapes, the Walkman, right? Everything. Tab D Cab, all that stuff. But you're a nine year old girl and you walk down the stairs and your mom just looks at you and goes, oh, honey, you look pudgy in that shirt. Let's go change that shirt, right? We want the boys to like us. We want the boys think you're cute, right? And you're nine and you're like, yeah. Then boom. At that moment I learned that my beauty is extrinsic. Somebody else, somebody else gets to judge that and pass it on to me. And that just becomes a thing you chase. And what you end up doing is you marry somebody who is like.

[Jefferson Fisher]

You.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Can wear that, right? And you want that nine year old girl to someone to look at her and go, you are the most beautiful person I've ever seen. And you, you'll never find it, right? Because you expect that person. And by the way, you got to say it in a way that makes me, quote, unquote, feel. And nobody will feel that, right? And so you're chasing this feeling, this feeling. And nobody, like you said, nobody can ever match that. And so it's about exhaling and saying, this is the person I'm. This is the person I married. They can't fill that gap. I got to go do that work and let that little nine year old girl go play. For God's sakes. Wear whatever shirt she wants to wear.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You were at my house last night. My daughter has worn the same sequin shirt for probably 17 straight days.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And she wears it backwards. She wears it backwards.

[Jefferson Fisher]

I loved it. I mean, my daughter does the same thing. My daughter's five and I.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

We're in a restaurant the other night and the waitress was awesome and I go, man, will you solve something? Me and my daughter on a date. And I said, is that shirt on backwards? And I saw the. It ticking. And she said, is there a tag? And my daughter looked and she looked up and smiled. There was a tag.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And I was like, you know what? You can wear that shirt backwards all you want. And she was like, yeah, you know, it was like this awesome victory. But that could have been the moment where, like, nobody's gonna like you if you wear your shirts backwards.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I said, dude, you're nine. Wear your shirt however you want to wear.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Everyone, for my daughter, it's her frozen. She has these frozen slippers, shoes. She. Every outfit she wears. Oh, just say it's like, hey, does it work? Absolutely, it works.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And that's it. And. And I think the differ how we're parenting and how we are parented is we will. That's. That's not a hill I'm going to die on.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. Right before we keep going. This episode is brought to you by Cozy Earth. One thing that I love about Cozy Earth is their bed sheets and their bath towels. I am officially at the age where I really care about that kind of stuff. I care a lot about what I'm sleeping in and when I'm traveling. It's. There's nothing worse than knowing that that's not your bed. It's not how it feels. The sheets aren't great. I've never had to worry about that with Cozy Earth. Once we put them on our bed sheets at home, on every single bed. It's been a game changer. So if you're like me and you enjoy having cool cozy sheets, I'm going to encourage you to go to cozyearth.com Jefferson for 40% off. That's an entire 40% off. Y' all cozyearth.com Jefferson. Use the code Jefferson. That's the key. Use the code Jefferson. For 40% off, they have a 100 night risk free trial. So what Stop. Next up is a little song from Carmax about selling a car your way.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You wanna sell those wheels. You wanna get a CarMax instant offer so fast. Wanna take a sec to think about.

[Jefferson Fisher]

It or like a month?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Wanna keep tabs on that Instant offer with OfferWatch?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Wanna have CarMax pick it up from your driveway?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Get it done.

[Jefferson Fisher]

So want to drive Carmax pickup not available everywhere. Restrictions and fee may apply. Yeah, go to Cozy Earth. How do you see the fear of abandonment come up in communication or at least manifest? I know we talked about leakage, how it spreads throughout everything, specifically the fear of abandonment. I see that a lot in emails that I get of people saying, I want to argue, I want to have a conversation. But they're always that. They make this conversation feel like this is the very last one they're ever going to have. And they feel like this is either life or death kind of conversation. And I. It prevents me from having the difficult talks with them because they feel like if, if there's any kind of struggle, any kind of conflict, they want to avoid it. Why? Because if we actually talk about it, he's gone, she's gone. Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Well, and I think one of my core tenants is you have to choose reality. If that's true, if they're actually going to leave, then y' all need to have that conversation because they're already gone. Yeah, they've already left you. They're just staying on the couch. Right. Most of the time. We end up having a lot of proxy wars. You don't make enough money. I don't like the way you dress. You're always on playing video games. Those are all proxy wars. And we fight at that surface level and never get to the actual issue.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Define proxy wars.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

It's a, it's a proxy war in a household is. I mean, they happen at the global level too, right? But it's a battle over here. China and the US if they got in a fight, everybody dies. So they're going to fund this little country to fight that little country. They're going to check out each other's technology. They're going to see what are you all doing, how do you respond to this? But we're not going to fight you because that fight is too cost. Little battles, that's little battles all over the place about silly things or dumb things or even big things. Right. But most of the time, those things are fought over here. There's a little tiny. There's. There's peace, and then we go on about our life. And so if you really think honestly, if you're honest with yourself, and I suggest people write this stuff down, get that out of your head. Because most of the time, you write down like, he's not gonna leave. She's not gonna actually leave. If she will, then she's already gone. And y' all need to have that conversation. You don't want to, but you need to have that conversation. And there's a real cost economically, there's a real cost relationally, there's a real cost spiritually, that's real. But you're having it anyway. The other side of it is sit down and actually have the true conversation. And you know this better than me, but almost, not 99.9% of time, whatever you're about to enter into start with I statements.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Instead of you. Because the moment you say the word you, we're. We're at war. And I have to defend myself, Right?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yep. Every time.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Every time.

[Jefferson Fisher]

When you hear somebody say, you ask them how they are, and they say, I'm fine. I'm fine. Now, with your two PhDs, how do you see that situation when they say, I'm fine? Yeah, but they're anything but fine.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I have two. Well, it depends on if I'm in a close relationship with somebody.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Let's say it is. Let's say you're in a.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

If I. If I saw you, we were hanging out, I was like, you doing good? And you're like, I'm fine. Yeah, I would know. No, you're not. And so I would have a good enough relationship. You and I would say, dude, you're not. We have to talk about it. But you're not. And if you want to talk about it, we can.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Well, that's an important point, though, of not forcing the conversation, but just knowing.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I see and the door is open. I'm not going to drag you through that door.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And I think in. Especially in romantic relationships, one partner tries to just drag the other person through that door. We're talking. Right. And you never want it.

[Jefferson Fisher]

It's the worst.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Right. So I'm not going to do that. But I would need you to know. I see that if I don't know you, I almost never ask the question, how are you? You. Because that's such a. You don't want to know. Right. That my mom's got cancer. You don't want to know that I might lose my job. Right. So I try not to put somebody in that position. The same as my dad was a homicide detective. Right. So when I'd get in trouble as a kid, come home late, it was like, so tell me about last night. Right? Like, it was. We were sitting in an interrogation room.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And it was on. Right. And now it's me versus my dad. If I can beat my dad, I'm pretty good. Right?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I don't do that to people. Like, if I have an employee and I know they stole something, say, hey, there's $500 missing, and you're the last person that had that. We can't steal at this company. And so I'm not going to be like, so did you take the. I'm not going to do that. And so same with those kind of questions, like, how are you? How are things going? Almost it. When I ask you, how are you doing? It puts me in a lifeguard stand above you. And I tried. I tried.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Still breathing?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah. If it. Well, it. It adds a power hierarchy. Like, how are you? You know, I mean, if you don't know the person. If I don't know you, like, how are you?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And so I like to. And I don't know somebody. And this sounds strange. I like to get underneath that power hierarchy, give you the, like, lift you up. Dude, tell me about your day, man.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Like, you look fantastic. I want to elevate you the best I can.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And let you know I'm with you. I'm not trying to. Well, how are you? Well, how are you?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right, right. I think that's right. The. What we've talked about, too, is you try to use phrases that instead of our evaluation, like, how are you?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

It's a very Jefferson way, using more action.

[Jefferson Fisher]

What's going on? What's happening this weekend? What are you excited about? Things that you don't have to get on the subsurface of. Tell me all your wants and fears and dreams.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That's it.

[Jefferson Fisher]

You know, let's just talk about the.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Because that one person. There's always that one annoying person that's like, do you really want to know? Yeah, I've got raging hemorrhoids. Right. And like, no, you don't want to know. Yeah. Like, I'm like, I don't want to put you in that position if I don't know you.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, I know. I think that's. I think that's right. With your experience in crisis response, I want to go there for a Little bit. What have you seen Shake out or for our listeners, if there's something that they could take away of. When you've gone into these crisis situations, communication wise, what is kind of your first priority when you're dealing with crisis management? When you're dealing with. There's. This is a bad situation, how do you. How do you start to break this apart? How do you start to break it down? What are you really looking for?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

For me, the. The most important line I was ever given by the guy who trained me, Dr. Young trained me. Calm is contagious. If I'm showing up to a scene or to a situation and I go running and I'm like, what's going on? I've just brought my crazy to this madness, right? And so one of the rules was if at all possible, walk. Walk to the scene and bring a calm presence. And it just has a contagion effect to everybody. Exhales and then maybe the one person isn't exhaling and that's the person you want to go sit with.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Can you. I want to make sure that. That my audience understands the significance of the things that you're walking into. So can you define for them? When I say your crisis management, your trauma, that kind of.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I've walked into an active shooter situation at a college, at your school. I mean, that we were both at. Right. I've walked into rooms where somebody has a child who's passed away in the next room right there. I mean, this is. It's bad. I've walked into a room where there is blood and guts and it's been wild stuff. And there may be police officers in there who aren't. Who aren't breathing or EMS folks who are like got their hands on their knees. Right. So it's not just the victims and it's not just the. It's a mess. Right. And if I walk in and I don't bring the temperature of that room down as much as possible, I just bring more. It's. Everybody just tenses up.

[Jefferson Fisher]

So you. You get brought in to solve the. The what to help just lower the elevation. When you say I go in as I'm part of the crisis management, is the goal to get everybody to kind of lower down or are you solving for a particular equation?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

It's my job usually in those. And when I was doing that with the police department, was I. It was my job to make sure a parent did not go into that room where their kid was. It was my job to make sure. Because here's what happens. You have a 6 year old who passed away or a 19 year old that just died by suicide in that room and you're going to go in there and hug your kid.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And you can't, it's against the law. You can't touch a body. And now the policeman's got to get in between you because it's a crime scene until it's not. Right. So police will show up and work at homicide back. That's just, that's just the training. And so you can't, you can't go in there, touch anything. Well, if I walk into a house and my 6 year old's in there, I'm going in that room, right?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And so what happens is police officer has to get in front and then somebody's going to hit a police officer because that's my kid.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Correct.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And they're doing it.

[Jefferson Fisher]

All of us better bring more than two.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Right? Yeah. And nobody wants to arrest. Right. So my job was to meet somebody in the front yard or to meet somebody in the living room.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And compassionately say geez, you don't go in that room. And it would be a heavy. Oh right. Or it would be talking to a college student who's like I want to be dead tonight and say we're not going to do that. And there's a presence. I'm not going to let you do that. And so you knowing that's not going to happen even if you think it is, there's a steadiness and a calmness to. That's not, that's off the table.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So now what we're solving for is not that we're solving for what's the best place you can go get the help and care that you need. And most people in that situation need, want something to anchor into. And so there's a calm and a steadiness. Right.

[Jefferson Fisher]

I don't, I don't think as many people know about that part of you as I wish there were. I think more people need to hear of your experience there just as your, any of the stuff that you put out.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

I think you really need that kind of stuff is, is huge.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I appreciate that. But, but also like the, it's now I don't, I don't run around police officers anymore. But now it's hey, we just found out our 4 year old has a terminal brain cancer. She's not C5. And in that moment you have two parents or one parent who are just every tether to reality just got clipped.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And so I'm gonna come here and be as present as I can.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And give them something to hang on to so that we can get to the reality of. Here's what's. Here's what the next year is going to be like.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And I'll be here.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Calm is contagious. I love that.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And the next one is facts are your friends.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Facts are your friends.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And so tell us about that. That would be showing up to a door and there was just a car wreck and a husband passed away. Right.

[Jefferson Fisher]

And you got to go tell.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

We got to go tell mom. We got to go tell his wife. And we show up to the door and there'd be some fumbling, some. Ma', am. It was raining and. Right. So she opens the door and there's somebody in a full uniform or three guys.

[Jefferson Fisher]

What's happened?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

It was raining outside. You open that door, they already know. Ma', am, there's a car wreck and your husband has died. I'm gonna say that. And then we will. I'll be here sturdy to catch that jet blast. And usually there's two or three. Like, somebody collapses, somebody starts screaming, somebody says, no, no, it didn't. Right.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And whatever their problem solving is. Is separate.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

But there's that phone call you make. Your son has passed away.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Right. And. Or your son's on life support. Your daughter's on life support. I need you to get on a plane tonight and get here as soon as you possibly can. What? Your daughter's on life support. I need you to get here as soon as you possibly can. When you arrive, I'll. I'll clue you in. Or when I would call parents in the middle of the night. And I've probably done this, gosh, 100 times, 200 times. Call a parent and say, this is Dr. John DeLoney from whatever university your child is living and they are safe. That's how I would start that conversation.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Because that's what they want.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Now they're in prison or they have been in a wreck and they've broken both legs and you'll need to make your way here. You can get here tomorrow. But. But it's always, the facts are your friends. I'm going to tell you the truth. And so take that out of that wild situation. To a marriage.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yes.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Like, I'm considering leaving this marriage, not any of this dancing around. And I've reached a point where you've cheated on me for the last time. I've contacted an attorney. I'm planning on leaving the. This marriage that the, the music stopped, the lights are on, there's no more dancing. Right. It's getting to that. What's that thing. And usually for people in a marriage to get at that level of clarity, you either have. Have to spent some significant time journaling and writing this stuff out. So, you know, you filter through all the feelings, all the.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

All the. You're. You're trying to solve it all. Here's what I want. Here's what I know to be true. Or you got to go spend some time with a therapist to help distill that down. Where are you? Those are hard, man.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Before we keep going, I want to take a second to tell you about a sponsor of this podcast called Peak. P I Q U E. And they make some of the best teas I've ever had. I'm now a tea guy in this part of my life. Sparkling water and carbonation just does not go well with me. And so I like flavor in my water. And here comes Peak. The reason I like it so much is because their flavors, the way they do it, it's not like I have to have a tea bag and it's hot, I can just rip them off. They're tea crystals. And you can pour it into your water whether it's hot or cold. And so it's really easy for me when I'm on the go. And each one of their flavors has some kind of additional health benefit. Whether it's for your. Your digestive or for your gut. Whether it's for calm, for energy, or maybe even your face. It has all these additional health benefits. And prebiotics, there's all kinds of antioxidants. And so it's, it's not only that it tastes good. I know it's also good for me. And right now Peak is giving my listeners 20% off for. For life. Plus this free electric frother that's really cool. And a glass beaker. When you grab their tea bundle, it's backed by a 90 day guarantees, which is pretty cool. So go to peak life.com remember, that's P I Q U E life.com jefferson and get 20% off for life. Clear gut, clear head, clear conversations. And now back to the episode. Man. Yeah, I don't think enough people know of just the tools that you just talked about right there. A lot of the stuff I know.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You know, it's innate.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, it was the. The calm is contagious.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Right.

[Jefferson Fisher]

If you can walk.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

But. But that's your masterpiece. That's what makes you such a great Attorney is the, the other side's whole job is to get you stirred up.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Sure.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Right.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, yeah, that's, that's all they ever want.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You can't have that.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, no, you can't. And the same thing, the facts on your, your friends. When you open that door, be as direct as you can be. Why? If you open that door and go, okay, we need to talk, it's over, it's over. Same thing in a text message, same thing with a phone call. If you have the hard news to deliver, if you have something sensitive to talk about, the last thing that you want to do is send the we need to talk. I mean that's just not going to happen. And so that's same thing in. Of course not near as significant and deep as the things you're having to deal with. But the, the truth is still the same. When you can get very direct. It's also very kind. It would be unkind.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Clear is kind.

[Jefferson Fisher]

That's right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That's right.

[Jefferson Fisher]

It would be unkind of you to open that door and the mother see you with the two police officers and you're just like, hey, you doing good? How's everything?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah, how's the day going?

[Jefferson Fisher]

This weather's crazy, right? Yeah, they didn't say it was gonna rain.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And that's. If you're, if you're a boss and you call somebody afternoon at 4:00 and you're like, hey man, so do I like those shoes? And do you that the person you just brought in, their heartbeat is at 1:75, like they're not listening to a word you're saying. They want to know, am I fired? Am I fired? Am I fired? Am I fired? And honestly, like talking about anxiety, that's why it's such a big deal to me to take care of on a day to day basis. All that other stuff, right? All your life stuff, you can have that conversation, which I've had with a, with a boss. If you swear at me again, I walk out that door and I don't come back. But I can only say that if I don't owe anybody any money.

[Jefferson Fisher]

That's true.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Right. I can only say that if me and my wife chose to live in a 900 square foot rental house for a long, long time and we drove comically hilarious, cheap, ridiculous cars that barely started for years. So that because it's cool to act all like tough, like bottom line, right?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And there's some data on when women just draw the line and they leave, his net worth goes up and hers falls off a cliff for a season. Right? And so there's a. There's realities to it that make it cool when I'm like, you just need to. All right, man. There's a cost to that. And your body would be failing you if it let you sleep all night knowing that's the cliff, right? And so anxiety is like, Can. Can be a great. It's just the lights on your dashboard, man. It's the smoke alarm in your kitchen. It is a way to get your attention to say, hey, I'm recognizing here that you're not stable. You're not. Okay.

[Jefferson Fisher]

That's a good point to make that the. And I remember you telling me this when I was having my, you know, my introduction to it. Anxiety is not a inherently bad thing. It is. It can be very much the signals on the dashboard of letting you know your meters, of how it's just a reflection of how your body's doing, Right?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So think about this like if we just back up and go a thousand years. If you are a successful husband, father, and tradesman, a professional, right? Whether you're making shoes or you're. You're an attorney or you're a roofer, and suddenly 2 million people are bombing you with all sorts of. Your body would be failing you if it let you sleep all night. Because that's not normal, Right? And I think our. The current ecosystem is. Let's shut down that body as soon as possible so we can get on to whatever we want to do. And you can do that for a season, but eventually your body will say, okay, you're not getting that message. I quit. Right? I'm out. And I think, for me, I want people to go as far, farther, as far up river as you can. That's why, dude, I'm past. I've been married forever. I'm past, like, trying to look like Brad Pitt. That's not gonna happen. I mean, if I squint, I mean, that's right in the dark. I exercise now so that I can hang out with my kids, and they're active. And so one day, if I have grandkids, I'll be able to roll around with them.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And so if the day comes I have a heart issue or I get cancer, I've given my body the best chance it can to recover, right? And it's the same as, you know what? I'm going to drive this crummy car so that I'm going to. I am going to not have a house full of clutter so I can Give my space, my brain space to breathe. So that when my parents are like, come get all your crap from high school and they drop it off.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

We got some closet space. Right?

[Jefferson Fisher]

It's.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

It's. I'm going to give my life some margin. And right now, in our culture, I think margin is seen as insanity. This episode is brought to you by Corona. When you're on a beach with an ice cold Corona in hand, how can you not feel centered? But did you know you can get that vibe anywhere? That's because whether after work, at barbecues or at a bar with just a squeeze of lime, Corona brings you La Playa mentality. Because while we all want the beach life, paradise doesn't always have palm trees. Corona La Playa awaits. Get [e-mail] Relax responsibly. Corona Extra Beer, imported by Crown Import, Chicago, Illinois. It's just, you're. It's insane if you have margin when.

[Jefferson Fisher]

You are in conversation with somebody. I'm just curious of your take on what are some ways that we can inherently hurt the trust that somebody puts in us. Is it really the words that can drive it? Sometimes you find it's the actions. There are people who say actions speak louder than words kind of thing. I'm just curious of your take on. Are there certain things that we might say in conversation that have the tendency to break someone's trust? Is it promises that you've kept and didn't keep?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Man, that's a great question.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Just curious on your take on trust. Trust in a relationship. When you have the people who call into your show, Dr. John DeLoney Show. It's great. It's great the way you handle people.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Off the show, the hours and the professional people, like the brilliant minds that the months we spent in a room to come up with. That was the title of the show, right? Dude, it was good. Yeah. I think a core tenet for me is behavior as a language. And that's a good one. Like, I. It doesn't matter what you say if you're like, I love you, though. And every time I walk in a room, you flip your phone over.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And we've been married for four years or for 15 years and we have three kids together. And I don't know the password on your phone.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

It's clear.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. What are you doing?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Like, yeah. Right. And so I'm a big advocate and I know this will make everybody. This is like the ultimate trigger if we're married and we have created humans together.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And we don't share a checking account. There's trust issues that we need to talk about. Like, no, this is my money.

[Jefferson Fisher]

That's for good or for bad.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

For.

[Jefferson Fisher]

There are trust issues.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Let's have a conversation. Right. And it may be. Yeah. That your dad took money out of your account when you're a kid or you were in a previous relationship and it was very financially abusive. And the only way I can breathe is knowing that I've got this safety.

[Jefferson Fisher]

They can have good motives and good reasons always. That doesn't mean it's not a trust issue.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That's it. It. That's it. And I think the. What I have to wrestle with, and this has been my demon for years, is I have an older sister who's a savant, like, comically smart.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

My little brother missed two questions on the Act 2. And I played Texas high school football.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And so for my whole childhood, I've been desperate for people. I don't have two PhDs because I'm smart. I was a desperate attempt. Seriously. Like, am I smart now, Mom.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And she's like, I was Dr. DeLoney before you. That's cute. Right. And so it's been a desperate attempt. Well, how does that play out? Every time I. For years, when I was on a new diet, I was the guy that ruined every party. Like, somebody would be like, oh, let's get some. Let's get some bread for the table. Well, you know, man. And just. But it came from a desperation for people to walk away. Like, that guy's really smart. And it came away. It came off as. I don't hang out with that dude. He's so annoying. He won't shut up.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

It was a desperate attempt to. But to. To be liked, to be loved, to connect. And it wasn't until I learned to begin to unhook that from. I don't need that. I've got a core crew that's like, yeah, if you blow your life up, you can come stay at our house.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

We're gonna laugh at you, but, like, we'll sit with you in court if you blow it up. But. But. But once I unhooked from all that, then it's a. It's this freeing thing.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

It's a. It's a spirit of freedom. Now I can sit here when you're, like, having whatever you're eating at dinner, and I can be glad that you enjoy it. And I could know it's probably killing you. And I can also know I'm probably wrong because I've been Wrong. Every time I've, like, come up with the diet or the workout plan or the. Yeah, whatever.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Eggs.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

It's a human.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Good, the better.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That's right, man.

[Jefferson Fisher]

What I'm doing, I don't know.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah. And so it's a. There's a humility to it, and I think when you meet somebody for the first time. Last night, I ran over to the local comedy club, did 10 minutes on a. On a showcase night. There was 15 comedians crammed in this little bitty room. It's hard not to, like, kind of size people up and what have you done and who you.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, what are you doing?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah. And there's this. If I walk in that room and know that those hundred people, those 200 people in the audience, like, they don't get a vote in my life, right? Like, I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna hand them my identity and self worth and say, do I value? Do I value? And these new folks I have, I don't. They don't like me. That's fine. Like, I've got. My wife likes me, my kids usually like me, my friends do like. And so that frees me to just say, hi, my name's John. And what I found is it's a presence that people flop to like a moth to a flame. They're so desperate for a sturdy, stable person who's not so desperate, like, grabbing this. What do you think? What do you think, man?

[Jefferson Fisher]

You like my hair?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Like, it's like, hey, man, what's up? You know what I mean?

[Jefferson Fisher]

No, I do. No, I'm right there with you.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And there I go saying, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, do you like me still? Am I smart? I'm right smart.

[Jefferson Fisher]

And you are smart. I've known you long enough to know you're very smart. I want to take a moment to tell you about a sponsor of this podcast I'm really excited about, and that is momentous. I'm excited because I use them every single day. I use them long before this podcast. They are not just a supplement company. They are a better health and life company. They make supplements and vitamins and things that you can put in your body that you're not going to get. Probably most likely, if you're like me in a traditional breakfast, lunch, and dinner. My life with kids in the stages that I'm in, we're running a gun all the time, picking up kids, dropping off soccer, traveling, all that stuff. And so what do I need? I need to make sure that my nutrition is always in Check. And that's where Momentous comes in. Their lineup that they have is awesome. I take their magnesium, L threonate, I take their creatine, I take their whey protein, I take their omegas. I have a whole sleep stack that they have that helps me go to sleep and I know that it's good for me. And the best thing about it is that it's third party tested, NSF certified and it's designed for people who actually care about what goes in their body. And I know that's you and if not, it's about time that you do. I don't have time to overthink supplements and that's why Momentous makes it really easy. And their stuff is clean. I know it's good, I know it's trustworthy. There's a million supplements, supplements out there and Momentous is truly the, the real stuff. Go to livemomentous.com and use the code Jefferson and get 35% off your first subscription. That's live momentous. Code Jefferson and get 35% off momentous. When your moment matters, make it count. And now let's get back to the episode. I want my listeners to hear something they probably have never heard. Now I have made a video about my panic attack. And again, you were one of the first people. I was like, hey, something's not right. I had a panic attack really about two years ago. And since then I wouldn't say at all. I've battled with anxiety. I'll have these peak moments of it's like alarms in my body of I can feel a lot of tension, I'm not able to release it or all of a sudden I can tell and I know anybody who's had a panic attack and know this feeling of like you feel like you're about to go down the roller coaster and you're. It's about to all get loose. I'm curious just between me. No cameras, just between me and you. So I, I had my panic attack on when I was really starting to get a lot of followers on social media. I make these in my car. I'm from a small town. I'm not used to all this. And so I'm very curious. This is, this is selfish for me, John of how do you, when you hear that kind of thing, you've written a book Building the non anxious Life. What caused that for me? For me I would say it's a place of feeling like I was alone. I guess is something you said a moment ago that resonated with me of Nobody in my small town could relate to what's going on. It happened when my panic attack happened when I was like 1am alone at the. For whatever reason. Nighttime is worse. I don't really get them in the day but at night they're. They're terrible. Yeah. And I don't. What do you just hearing that from me. What kind of comes to mind? Because I'm going to take this in as help for me. Yeah. This is. This is my unsolicited session.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I mean probably the. Yeah. One is your body knows you're all you got and when you. When it start. When it happens real fast.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

It feels real good. It feels awesome. And it. It's easy to. And I've had the same experience, man. I know. Social media five years ago. Right.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And I had nothing. I had none. And so it feels good when you say it. This people saying I like you.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Oh yes. Okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Or you're really good looking or you're the husband or the brother. I didn't.

[Jefferson Fisher]

You're talking about when you're gaining the.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

When it's happening.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

It feels so good.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And if you're like me. I don't know. But like my wife and I have a routine and that my wife would die for me and she doesn't tell me I'm great and wonderful every day. And Now I have 5 million people telling me I'm great.

[Jefferson Fisher]

It's also your biggest critic.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah. Because she also sees correct. Bro. She's been gone for five days. This is true.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yes.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Did you know this morning I. I dried my underwear with a blow dryer because I. Oh my gosh. I needed clean clothes.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Right. And we have a very egalitarian marriage. Like but it's. It just was a thing and a thing and I don't. Can I have a snack? Hey. What are you for breakfast? Hey, dad. You don't have any coffee. Like.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And here I am.

[Jefferson Fisher]

And your wife's incredible.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

She's amazing. Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And I'm not a bumbling like husband. Like, where's my son? That's not our marriage at all.

[Jefferson Fisher]

No, I know that.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

But here I was. Right.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And so a. It feels good. And this is a personal belief of mine. It's divorced from reality. Your body knows those aren't. There's a thing we have right now.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Right. You can feel me in this room. Right on. Electronically. It's divorced from reality. And the other thing that I think is true is there's always this question. Am I right? Am I Good enough for this?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Like, I'm pretty good, but I'm not worth 5 million people.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Who am I? And there's the assumption that these, like, other successful people feel a certain way and they don't. They're just as insecure.

[Jefferson Fisher]

That's a great point.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Right. And Oprah's talked about this, that everybody, from a president to famous authors to, like, world leaders, whatever, as soon as their interview's over, they go, is that good? Is that good? Like, last night, there was comedians that are great comedians that walked back and were like. They're just looking like, was that good? You know? I mean.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Oh, yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

To a room full of. Yeah, yeah. It's this innate sense of, am I enough?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And when you're getting that, especially electronically, but you get that anywhere. I grew up with not very much money. Like, money was a huge thing in our house. And the first time I crossed a financial threshold, I didn't realize this, but growing up, my family culture was those people have that. And now suddenly, am I one of those people? I'm not one of those people. Oh, you know what I mean?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Are you living in the. The perceptions of what you've always thought?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Right. And so now. But it's this loss of identity, and your body just says, I'm sounding the alarms. Let's go back to where it's safe.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And so anybody that makes a leap professionally, personally, this can be that moment when you're like, oh, I'm falling in love. And your body knows. Hey, we remember love. Mom left.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Sound the alarm. Go back to where it's safe and we've all broke up with somebody, and you go home. You're driving home after the breakup, you're like, why don't I just do that?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

But it's like, I feel comfortable here. Your body's always solving for homeostasis. And the moment, even if it's great and wonderful and good, when you break home, you lose 30 pounds, you'll put 40 back on. Your body is comfortable where it's comfortable at. And so, man, it's. It's just knowing this is part of the ride. This is the. This is the ride I'm on in the moment I stopped trying to go to war with my body. The moment some of those panic attacks start to.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, you gave me the recommendation. The body keeps a score.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah. It's a great book.

[Jefferson Fisher]

That was the recommendation. You're like, you need to go.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And I also have given that recommendation a lot. And then I reread it recently. And it's like, this is a really dense science book. It's not. Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

I mean, let me be honest. I got through the first, like, few chapters and I went and looked at the summary.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Well, I need to quit doing that.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Like, it was good.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Seven articles. That's so nerdy. But I think there's a. It's not going to work. My own body. And then I've got to go back and ask, am I using this as a proxy for how's my marriage?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

How's my relationship with my friends? Do I have any friends?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Have I tied all of my, My self worth to my net worth? Have I? That's like.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Like in our culture, we answer that question, what are you worth? We end up with a number. That's insane.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right. It's pretty wild.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

It's insane.

[Jefferson Fisher]

It's not. I don't think that's why we were put on this earth. Oh, yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Like, the answer to the question, what are you worth? Is who do you love and who loves you not?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

How many vacations did you not take? Right.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right. So how are you serving? That's. That's a much better measure.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Right, Right. Who are you helping?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And so the, the, the, the question, if anyone's feeling anxious, if anyone's feeling. Starting on that man and panic attack is scary because it feels like you're being betrayed by your own body.

[Jefferson Fisher]

I went to the er.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

That night.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That's it.

[Jefferson Fisher]

I mean, I, I thought I was dying because I was like. When they asked her like, do you have stress or anxiety? And I was like, no, I don't have anxiety. That's for the, that's for the weird.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I just have 3 million people checking on me every day of my life.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right. Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And commenting on my car, my hair, my clothes, my everything. You don't look happy today. You're like, right, right. All the same. All in one minute.

[Jefferson Fisher]

And this little phone of, like, it's just a pixel on a screen of. So I've always had a healthy relationship with it. I've always. I don't feel like I've ever taken what they say is my worst.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Sure.

[Jefferson Fisher]

But in terms of, I think the amount of eyeballs at once when you never expected this, never wanted this, I think that made me feel very. My body was like, nah, something's not right with how you're processing this.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Well. And you had people, and we won't put them on, on the show, but you had very famous people reaching out.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yes.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And suddenly I've had this Feeling I don't belong at that table.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Oh, yeah, I still struggle.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I need to be in this room. I remember I walked into a speaking event, and they had speaker gifts for everybody lined out, and there were. There were these really insanely nice, like, leather bags. They were awesome, but they had the names on them. And I walk in, and it was Coach Saban was one Jocko, Jay Leno, Dave Ramsey, John Deloney. And I was like, I'm leaving. Like, you know, I mean, I was like, I don't know. No. Best coach ever, right? Best comedian of all time. I'm out. I'm a Navy seal, for God. I'm out. Like. And so there's this sense, like, I don't belong at this table. And what's fun for me is when you sit down with not all of them, but many of them, nobody feels like they belong at that table. That's the big scam of it all. And if you do, you're like, this is my table. You probably need to see somebody. Right?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Because everybody's just a person.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That's right, man. And that sounds so trite and silly, but.

[Jefferson Fisher]

But it's. It's. It's. It's very much the truth, because you. You expect, like, oh, how. How's that person doing it? Because they look so cool. They look so.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Take it off of real famous people. Yeah, I had that same exact thing when I was assistant dean. And, yeah, my supervisor was like, hey, we're gonna go have a dean's meeting. You can come with the big deans, the real ones. Oh, the big. And I'm like, bro, I don't need to be. Yeah, I'm walking into this room. Or you're the assistant director of the mail room, and suddenly you get to go to the leader of the communication meeting, and you're like, I don't belong. You know? And every alarm I can remember sitting.

[Jefferson Fisher]

In my first partner's meeting at a law firm.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I got my partner.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, it couldn't have been any cooler. And then you sit in. You're like, this is not nearly as cool as I thought it was.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Or if you get together with a mom's group and you've just had your first kid, and everyone's on kid two or three, it's easy to be like, I don't. I don't fit in here. I don't belong here. And it goes back to that original, like, I. I don't believe I have a right to sit at this table.

[Jefferson Fisher]

So let's put it. Pull it back for the, our. For our listeners. What are, what are. Let's put some takeaways with it. One, everybody's trying to figure stuff out.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah. Two, very few people believe that they are worth sitting at in the seat that they're sitting in.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. I think that's almost everybody in a.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Marriage, in with your kids, with, at church, at your job, at whatever. Very few people believe they're worth sitting where they're sitting. I think that's.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, that's really well said too. I want to end with the calmest contagious that I really liked. Three is it was this great line that you, you said it's kind of a principle of therapy of you marry your unfinished business.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. Or really you even get into relationships with your unfinished business.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Almost always you take jobs that solve your unfinished business.

[Jefferson Fisher]

You.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

We, we. I always want people to go back to and just sit with like. And this is an exercise I have people do all the time.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Just close your eyes and sit in a chair and give yourself 30 minutes. If you can't find 30 minutes, that in and of itself is an issue. But find 30 minutes and close your eyes and imagine your 9 year old self or your 16 year old self right in front of you.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

What would you tell her without.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. Can you. I don't know if anybody could do that without crying.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I often will tell people, right. That kid a ladder and your 16, 17, 18 year old self who was drinking, give that kid a high five and a hug because that kid was doing whatever he could to survive. If the 16, 17, 18 year old you that slept around too much that like you're ashamed. Dude, give her a hug. Because she was trying to find somebody that said I see you. Even if it was for three minutes, you know, I mean like I see you and it's, it's being compassionate with the decisions you made when you're a kid and treating yourself, that former self with respect and dignity. And then the hard work is all right, now I gotta go do the next right thing, which is I gotta find some people. I gotta go get counseling if I need to. Dude, I see a therapist and I do this for a living. I see somebody and just the last session I was in, I was like, dude, how did I miss that one for my whole life? Right?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And so you're always uncovering things. And then there's those daily principles of I gotta treat my. I gotta be a good steward of my body, I gotta be a good, a good steward of my wife. I gotta be a good steward of my kids, of my job and it just unhooks all this extrinsic stuff.

[Jefferson Fisher]

So good man. Thanks for sitting down with me. No, thanks for in your own studio.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Thanks for inviting me to my own house.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. First time on your other chair. I know. I feel like I've. I'm sitting in like your favorite lounge in the living rooms and go sit on the couch.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

No, I'm just. I'm just glad you texted me and said, hey, let's wear the same shirt, bro.

[Jefferson Fisher]

You like that? Yeah, it's good if you never know what to wear. For guys, we always wear blacks. And why is it always works? Cuz, man.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Covers up all of our insecurities.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. All of our problems.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So we're going to go get tattoos before you leave?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm going to get some sleeves.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You're in.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. I'll have to ask a few people.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

But yes, a few people.