Psychotherapist: Should You Go No Contact?

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Podcast: The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Episode: Therapist Explains: Why Kids Are Cutting Off Their Parents
Host: Jefferson Fisher (Civility Media)
Guest: Matthias Barker (Therapist & Estrangement Specialist)
Date: August 7, 2026

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Overview of the Episode

This episode dives into the increasing phenomenon of family estrangement, particularly between parents and adult children. Host Jefferson Fisher and therapist Matthias Barker unpack the psychological, generational, and cultural reasons behind why adult children are choosing to cut off their parents. They discuss the emotions and misunderstandings on all sides, and offer actionable frameworks and compassionate strategies for initiating reconciliation and healing—especially for parents who feel lost, rejected, or uncertain about how to reconnect.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What is Family Estrangement? [01:00–03:10]

• Estrangement can range from “total cutoff” (no contact) to emotionally distant but polite relationships where conversations stay surface level.
• It’s increasingly common—according to a 2023 study, 1 in 4 people have cut off a family member at some point.
• Quote:
  "When you're cut off from a family member, that can be one version of it... But it could also be when there’s just a bunch of elephants in the room and you’re emotionally just walled off from them." – Matthias [01:52]

2. Patterns Leading to Estrangement [03:10–08:47]

• The path often begins with strained, exhausting interactions, boundaries being ignored, and culminates in no contact for self-protection.
• For parents, estrangement is almost always a surprise; the triggering event usually seems “trivial” to them but is the last straw in a long pattern.
• Quote:
  "There was a pattern of behavior that really created a lot of strain... The parent is focused on the last conversation, when really, it’s the history of the relationship." – Matthias [04:53]

3. Cultural and Generational Clashes [11:56–16:53]

• Generational and cultural differences (internet generation vs. offline upbringing, rural vs. urban) create hidden disconnects in values around accountability, authority, and emotional expression.
• Younger generations prioritize openness, apology, and authenticity; older generations may value endurance and not making a "mountain out of a molehill.”
• Quote:
  "There can be death by a thousand papercuts." – Matthias [14:57]

4. The Emotional Experience of Parents and Children [16:53–20:41]

• Parents often feel baffled and defensively compare their own hardships; children feel invalidated and unheard.
• Both realities can, and do, exist together.
• Notable exchange:
  "No two things can be true at the same time." – Matthias [17:02]
  "It’s not a but, it’s an and." – Jefferson [17:07]

5. How Parents Can Begin Repairing [22:07–29:30]

• First steps: Affirm (or grieve) your child’s experience without defensiveness or minimizing.
• Be specific: Vague apologies don’t land; cite concrete examples.
• Express regret & take ownership over your part, not over your child’s interpretation or narrative (don’t “own” the exaggerated label, find the 5% of truth).
• Repair Framework:
  1. Ownership (“I did that, that happened.”)
  2. Affirm the feeling (“That sounds frustrating.”)
  3. Express shared hurt (“What hurts you hurts me.”)
  4. Commit to changed behavior (“Next time, I will…”)
• Quote:
  "What they wish for is that their parents would see—and take accountability for—the pain they’ve caused." – Matthias [25:01]

6. Communication Strategies That Work [34:08–41:02]

• You can affirm someone’s feelings without agreeing with their story.
• When confronted with accusations, look for the grain of truth and acknowledge the need that went unmet, rather than invalidating or defending.
• Parents’ strong desire to prove they were “a good mom/dad” often sidetracks repair.

7. Dealing with Complex Family Dynamics (e.g., In-laws) [41:02–45:19]

• Parental blame is often placed on daughters-in-law or ex-partners as the cause of estrangement.
• Lies or manipulations only “take root” where genuine hurts already exist.
• The best move is to take responsibility for any real pain ("the hurt in the soil") and invite all parties into family counseling rather than direct confrontation.
• Quote:
  "Lies can't take root if there’s not hurt in the soil." – Matthias [42:18]

8. Methods to Re-Open the Door [49:49–57:01]

• Brief, sincere communications (voicemail, postcard) are more likely to be received than long letters.
• Content and tone matter: Let your child know you’re different by your emotional energy, not just your words.
• Avoid writing AI-generated letters—the authenticity is what counts.

9. Peace with What’s Possible [67:47–75:44]

• Not all estrangements can be resolved. The goal is “peace with what’s possible”—maintain openness without clinging to fantasy or certainty.
• Prepare your heart and life for reconciliation, but don’t stop living or put your happiness on hold.
• Quote:
  "Peace with what’s possible." – Matthias [67:53]

10. Common Traps to Avoid [80:17–82:16]

• Emotional dumping on your child (sharing your pain or guilt without processing it elsewhere).
• Letting resentment or self-pity dominate your interactions.
• Over-explaining, defending, or rehearsing your “good intentions.”
• Key advice:
  Find safe spaces (therapy, support groups) to process your pain, so you can engage your child with softness and curiosity instead of desperation.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "If you don't say it, they're going to have the conversation for you." – Jefferson [57:59]
• "I did my best and I love you." – Matthias, on what parents want their kids to hear [74:39]
• "I had some unmet needs in childhood that I wish you could just acknowledge. I'm not asking you to fix me… I just want to grieve some of the loss that was hard for me to go through alone." – Matthias [75:01]
• "Certainty is so much more comforting… The cost is your hard heart." – Matthias (citing Terry Real) [72:42]
• "You can't fake the energy in the room. You have to do the work inside." – Summary from Matthias [76:40]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Defining Estrangement – [01:00–03:10]
• Estrangement Patterns & Surprise Factor – [03:10–08:47]
• Cultural/Generational Disconnects – [11:56–16:53]
• Validating Both Parent and Child Perspectives – [16:53–20:41]
• Repair Framework Steps – [27:41–29:30]
• Affirmation vs. Agreement – [34:08–36:05]
• In-Laws & Family Systems – [41:02–45:19]
• Letter Writing & Communication Tips – [49:49–57:01]
• 'Peace with what's possible' Mindset – [67:47–75:44]
• Estrangement Traps & Community Support – [80:17–82:16]

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Practical Tools & Takeaways

For Estranged Parents:

• Don't defend, don't explain, don't dump emotion; ask questions about your child’s experience.
• When reaching out: Use brief, heartfelt communication (postcards, voicemails, short messages).
• Validate or grieve, even if you don’t agree. Find the “5% truth” and own it.
• Community is crucial: Process your grief elsewhere, not just with your child.
• Consider family therapy as a structured environment for mutual understanding.
• Peace with what’s possible: Stay open, but don’t put your life on hold.

For Adult Children:

• You’re not required to carry the parent’s emotions or guilt. Boundaries can be healthy.
• Longing for acknowledgment, not perfection or endless apologies, is at the core of most grievances.
• Repair is possible, but safety and authenticity matter above all.

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The Episode’s Core Message

Family estrangement is rarely about a single event; it’s the result of years of unaddressed hurt, mismatched expectations, and missed connections. Repair begins with honest self-examination, specific acknowledgment of pain, and an attitude of genuine curiosity and humility. There is hope for many families—sometimes in direct reconciliation, and always in finding personal peace with what is possible.

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For further support or to join the estrangement and reconciliation community, visit estrangement.com.

Transcript

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[Jefferson]

There seems like there are more broken relationships now more than ever, especially between parents and adult children. It's almost near epidemic level. What can we do to repair these broken relationships?

[Matthias]

There was this huge study that came out in 2023, thousands of people, and it found that one in four people had cut off contact with a family member and at some point in their life. And it's funny because, like, I specialize in estrangement. I'm a therapist. I have clinical practice. I have a group where we kind of have parents and adult kids in the same group. We work through a program for family conflict. And it's like, I don't know, when you first kind of hear about it, most people don't know what the word estrangement means. And then I.

[Jefferson]

How do you define it?

[Matthias]

Well, yeah, so when I talk to people, I was like, well, I specialize estrangement. They're like, what's that?

[Jefferson]

And I'm like, well, sounds strange.

[Matthias]

When you're cut off from a family member, that can be one version of it. Like, you don't talk to your mom, you don't talk to your dad, you don't talk to your brother. But it could also be when there's just a bunch of elephants in the room and it's kind of like you're emotionally just walled off from them. Like, maybe you see them at Christmas, maybe you see them at, I don't know, maybe you send like a birthday text. But generally, if you're in the same room, you're keeping it pretty surface. And it just feels like, gosh, I'm basically, we're family. So I see them when I have to, but I'm not putting in a ton of emotional energy into the relationship.

[Jefferson]

I'm with you. So, like, what I see it as, by the way, how we do the show is it really is just a conversation. So if you're curious about something, ask. If I'm curious about something, I'm going to ask.

[Matthias]

Cool, cool.

[Jefferson]

So I see it when you go, okay. If we're going to define what estrangement is, if somebody's not familiar with it, that they know what it feels like, it can either be a full connection as closed. They do not respond to my texts, they do not answer my calls. It is closed. Or you're saying there's also the same effect of estrangement, is you only see each other at the holidays and you really don't know each other. Whereas that's more of, like, what I would think of is it's strained.

[Matthias]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

Like, it's. We're there for it, but when we get there, we know this isn't real life. Like, this isn't. We're. We're. There's something, like you said, elephant in the room that has a. When people are talking to you about it, usually, what's the one that they're most struggling with?

[Matthias]

Depends if you're a parent or a kid. I mean, I think that most of the kids that I talk to start in the strained camp, they're just like, man, I feel really exhausted in my relationship with my mom or as a kid. Kid meaning not like young kid meaning in reference to the parents who. An adult. So an adult kid who's just, like, thinking about mom or dad. Maybe I'm in my 20s or 30s or 40s. I'm like, man, I just feel exhausted around my parent. I feel like I can't really tell them things. I feel like they jump in with unsolicited advice all the time. And I'm just kind of, like, nodding through it and I'm gritting through it, and then I talk to people kind of on that stage, and then maybe it gets to the point where it's just like, hey, to protect my mental health, to protect my peace, I think I need to set up some boundaries here. And then if those boundaries aren't engaged, accepted, maybe sometimes a parent jumps in and takes that as a gesture of disrespect or is frustrated, is intrusive anyway, then it can really lead to just no contact. And so that's the story I hear most from people maybe our age, you know, and, like, maybe people who grew up on the Internet.

[Jefferson]

I was, like, mid-30s.

[Matthias]

Yeah, yeah, mid-30s, 40s. I mean. And anyone can be estranged, but like for sure. Then on the parents side, I think the conversation comes mostly when that no contact is hit. Because for a lot of parents, really surprised. What's really interesting in the lit is like the thing that often leads to a cutoff. Estrangement is almost always a surprise to the parent.

[Jefferson]

Right.

[Matthias]

The parent. And it feels very small. So Carl Pilmer out of Cornell's talked about this. Kaidia Glies out of Australia, both researchers, they've talked about this a lot. Is like, is something like a comment

[Jefferson]

about your new tattoo or something you thought was a compliment? Yeah.

[Matthias]

Or just a trivial whatever. Or like, you know, you should probably make a budget, you know, even like a little piece of advice. And then the kid's like, I'm right. And then the parents like, what?

[Jefferson]

What was that?

[Matthias]

What was that like? And then what is often the case is there was a pattern of behavior that really created a lot of strain in the relationship that maybe the parent was aware of, maybe not. Often the parent's aware that like, well, I'm noticing my kid pull back. Like I'm noticing that they're giving me these one word texts or I have to call. Like, they're never initiating conversation. I'm always the one asked to initiate. I'm always one making plans.

[Jefferson]

They're pulling away.

[Matthias]

Yeah, I feel they're pulling away, but then they cut me off for this trivial reason and they're like, what, you're just discarding the relationship over that? Yeah. And then it feels like, oh, this must be some like cultural trend. This is because of TikTok. This is because therapists are kind of turning kids against their parents.

[Jefferson]

Right.

[Matthias]

And I'm like, hold on. When you zoom out and hear the whole story, there's often those elephants in the room and they all had to sit on the kid's lap. And then it just got bigger and bigger until the kid was like, I can't.

[Jefferson]

I see it when, for the purposes of our discussion, when we say estrangement, I want to use the definition that's just total cutoff. Like we're breaking things off. I cannot reach them anymore. I do find that when I first talked about it as kind of a trend, especially on social media, it's like it becomes a thing that is more accepted. Like there was a time when divorce was not as accepted. Yeah, I was extremely accepted. And there was a time when estrangement was not. And now whether the data shows that it's more often or not, it's certainly more verbal. You know, it's more out and about.

[Matthias]

Hashtag use more.

[Sponsor Announcer 2]

Exactly.

[Jefferson]

And so it's become more of like a this is what I'm doing for me and my health. And like, this is a thumbs up for you kind of trend that you're seeing in the data as you being an expert in this. Here's the question I want to ask because I think you raised a really good point. At what point does a parent know that estrangement is happening? Because my gut tells me estrangement doesn't begin at the last conversation.

[Matthias]

Yeah, there's two versions of this. One is where the kid pulls away and then just stops responding without an announcement, without like a boundary list, without like a mom, you got to do this or this or this or I'm going to cut you off. Like, there's no negotiation.

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Matthias]

There's no disclosure. It literally is just we moved. That happens sometimes I stop responding to the text or the text went green. Like I got blocked. And then the parent is really just left to try to make sense of a bunch of fragments of what happened. And that is disorienting and overwhelming for some reason.

[Jefferson]

In other words, there is a immediate, without announcement, exit.

[Matthias]

Yep, just exit.

[Jefferson]

So that's one avenue.

[Matthias]

Just enough is enough. That's one avenue. And then the second is there's some conflict. But like I said, most of the time it's over something small. And then the kid stops talking. And so then that's disorienting because it seems like, well, we were just talking about the new tattoo or they said, don't, you know, get presents for my kids for Christmas. It was just one thing. It was just one snow globe. Really. That's it. And so they're almost kind of focused in on the last conversation when really it's like the history of the relationship was it. And here's what happens in the mind of many adult kids is it's like, man, mom won't come towards me and hear me about the snow globe. She's not going to come towards me around this bigger thing.

[Jefferson]

Right.

[Matthias]

If we can't even have a good conversation around something trivial, why would I trust that she can handle the big things in my heart? And so it just feels like I'm just gonna say, hey, mom, you've been intrusive, or you kind of give me advice all the time, or you keep making comments about my weight, or you're really rude to my spouse, or you're critical towards my kids, or you make comments about cleanliness in my house all the time. And then I'M like, am I really gonna get anything out of that conversation? If I bring that up with mom, is she gonna be like, oh, wow, you know what? You're right. I find, like, I'm being, you know, so it's like, I guess I'm just gonna pull back because it's not worth it. And there's this feeling of I'm gonna be totally triggered, totally thrown off for the next few days because it's gonna turn into some sort of yelling match, and then she's gonna, like, call me ungrateful and disrespectful. It's just gonna be. So I'm just gonna pull back.

[Jefferson]

What I hear is, Jefferson, I already know how it's gonna go.

[Matthias]

Yeah, exactly.

[Jefferson]

Because based on my history, you know, when I can go back to my inner child of, like, it's like the

[Matthias]

first conflict we've had.

[Jefferson]

Yeah. At 8 years old, and she put me in my room and said, this is what's going to happen. And because I said so, in that element of control, I can't undo. She's not going to. She didn't hear me then. She's not going to hear me now or in any time. I want to make sure in this conversation, when we say she's not, it's also, he's not mom or dad. Mom or dad, any point in time. So if we're going. Because I really want to make sure that I give tools, that you and I both give tools for the parent who's listening as well as maybe it's the relative who's listening to brother or sister or child who's listening. So first in this pocket, I want to talk about parent. So what can a parent do right now who's listening? And goes, I haven't spoken to my child in three years. I want there to be something.

[Matthias]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

Usually when I hear from them, I bet when you hear from them, they're wanting something. They're wanting that door to be open, and they're just. They're at an absolute loss.

[Matthias]

Yeah. And they want to know where to start.

[Podcast Promoter]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

Because anything that feels like showing love or opening a door feels like, to the other person, control and not listening and shutting the door.

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[Jefferson]

How do you deal with that contrast? That's a great way of putting it. Is it normal for. And I know I'm asking multiple questions, I like it that I don't like, but this is because my brain's going somewhere else. Is it possible to be raised in the same house but have two different experiences?

[Matthias]

Yeah. Especially if you grew up on the Internet.

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Matthias]

I think it's not a small point. I think that if you grew up on the Internet, you have a different culture than your parent.

[Jefferson]

Tell me more.

[Matthias]

You know, bicultural families, like people come from a different country and then they come to the United States, for example, or Canada or something, and it's like the kid is raised in a Western world and then. But at home it's maybe, let's say traditional or collectivist values. And there's arguments that can happen there where both people are just talking past each other. It's not even necessarily that they disagree. They don't even really understand the conversation they're having.

[Jefferson]

Is this just. But can we put those as they're just from different generations?

[Matthias]

Perhaps. But then we ask, like, how. Like, what about the generational divide is the disconnect? And I think that cultural values has a piece of it. I can give an example. So, you know, on a. Accountability, it is very much the value of many millennials and younger that if, let's say there's some sort of flaw, there's something you did that was hurtful in relationship. Like the best thing to do is that we both kind of be able to be honest about our failings and our shortcomings, that we seek to have accountability and repair of trust. And what that includes is something like an apology and something like owning when we've made a mistake so that we can hear maybe the experience of the other person and how they felt and how that was hurtful. And part of that trust rebuilding process is that humility, that essentially kind of almost being eye level, being able to acknowledge we're both human, we both make mistakes, and how can we love each other better is not necessarily the cultural value of many people that didn't grow up on the Internet. Especially if you're from like a rural culture, like let's say that you didn't live in a big city, you were from the South. The expectation was that actually there's a bit more of a hierarchy between the parent and kid. Parent and kid aren't eye level. Parent and kid. There's some authority. Even for adult kids, there's some sort of authority. And the value of enduring and overlooking, let's say imperfections is a higher value than calling out every tiny little conflict. The old phrase of like, let's not make a mountain out of a molehill or let's kind of pick our hill to die on, it's very much kind of the cultural value of some parents where it's like, you know what, let's just kind of move past it. Let's move past it. And that's meant as a gesture of generosity, of not trying to, you know, make a huge deal out of every point of friction, trying to actually extend tolerance and, and kindness. When a kid kind of views that as well, that's inauthentic. That's like me faking and performing and, you know, pretending like we're just kind of going back to normal like water under the bridge. And then the parent means that as like, well, hold on, I'm actually trying to zoom out just from like this one conflict to the larger way that we see each other. Like, you know, you're my son, you're my daughter, we're family. Family's supposed to be able to endure past these trivial little things. The conflict that, you know, younger kids have with that is like, well, sometimes they're not always trivial. These aren't always just scraps and scrapes. Sometimes they're patterns. And you could say, well, that's just a paper cut, but, well, hold on. There can be death by a thousand paper cuts.

[Jefferson]

Oh, for sure.

[Matthias]

And it seems like it goes in one direction more often than the other. Feels like, well, there's a disproportionate amount of times I'm supposed to put water under the bridge, but then when I have something, it's viewed as disrespect or it's viewed as me being ungrateful for the sacrifices you made. There's an asymmetry in that. So you can see already, like, there's kind of different cultural ish values, even though they're minor, that both people are almost trying to express love to the other person through their worldview, but it's being totally missed. And I'm not saying they're equal or they're relative. Like, I think we do need to take accountability. And then I think there's also times when we need to be understanding that someone doesn't have to be exactly like us or acknowledge every tiny little thing for us to be close. We can be compassionate. Do you have an opinion on that? Do you have thoughts around that?

[Jefferson]

Well, what I see is, you know, if we're going. What they say in therapy, like, the hardest thing about parents is that they had parents. And so we're not talking just even cultural values or generational values. It's also the household in which they grew up in. You know what I said? Why would I? Nobody did anything for me. Why would I do something for you? Nobody apologized to me. You know, you think that's hard? We're comparing the experience of that. You think.

[Sponsor Announcer 2]

You think.

[Jefferson]

Like, what I hear a lot is, and I can remember even my mom doing this. She was like, you think this is yelling? This isn't yelling. You know what I mean? If you had heard what I grew up with, you'd see how nice I am, how good I am, how. You know. Because she's comparing that experience, which doesn't mean that it's invalidated. It just means that what you said, there's that asymmetry of alignment. And so what can that do? That is if we're saying, all right, we're in this box of adults,

[Sponsor Announcer]

what

[Jefferson]

could be leaving adults in more of like, a. I don't know what. What in the world I did is because they're seeing it through the lens of how they were raised in their culture. Yeah.

[Matthias]

I gave you a world that was ten times better than what I had.

[Jefferson]

Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you know how, like, how much more I do and they're telling the truth. That's the point.

[Matthias]

That's the point.

[Jefferson]

Yeah, yeah, they're, they're. That's not to be invalidated.

[Matthias]

No two things can be true at the same time.

[Jefferson]

Right, Exactly. So it's not a but, it's an and. And your child's experience doesn't mean that all of a sudden I see how amazing of a parent you are. I can still have this experience that was affected by me. So what I'm hearing is, you know, how do you know when estrangement has happened? It's not the last conversation. It's something generally that happened weeks, if not years before that. This was just the camel that broke

[Matthias]

the straw's back. Yeah, yeah, that's a brutal camel.

[Jefferson]

Yeah, that's. Yeah, that's. That's rough. That's rough on the straw. Oh, and you know, we're deal with. Here's the point. For adults, both perspectives are true.

[Matthias]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

The minute you go, that's, that's stupid. Well, that's, that's you being childish. That's breaking the connection more than you can. Repairing the connection. And I do want to talk about repair. I want to first talk perspectives. So that would be something from the adult of going, I'm totally baffled.

[Matthias]

Can I, can I add to that? Come on. Is like the, the both end is hard because so often the experience of the kid is like, every time I try to bring up a complaint, the conversation immediately gets deflected onto, I had it worse.

[Jefferson]

Or you always. Or you always.

[Matthias]

And oh, you have a problem with everything. You're always. All you do is focusing on my failures, my faults. And so, like, when we say, like two realities at the same time, we're also not saying I need to almost kind of like minimize or downgrade the actual complaint that I'm feeling. It's like, it's hard to hold two things at the same time. Both parents and kids need to do that. It's not just the kids being asked to do that. I think the parent needs to hold that. Yeah, I, I did. I had it way harder. And that doesn't mean my kid didn't experience hardship.

[Jefferson]

Exactly.

[Matthias]

You know, like, I never had anyone apologize to me, so how am I supposed to know how to apologize to my kids in all these, like, fancy therapeutic ways? I didn't have any of these parenting books when I was growing up or when I was raising them. I didn't have anyone. Be all, like, kind and gentle parenting, whatever, yada, yada, yada.

[Jefferson]

Yeah, the world's lost their mind.

[Matthias]

Yeah. Like, I'm supposed to be, like, passing this test I never got the study guide for.

[Jefferson]

Right. And everything's soft now.

[Matthias]

Everything's soft.

[Jefferson]

Everything soft and emotional and, oh, and

[Matthias]

you're fine to complain with everything. Everything's trauma. And so I'm like, here's the thing. I don't care to dispute any of those lines.

[Jefferson]

It does no good.

[Matthias]

I'm just like. Because in my mind, that doesn't actually matter. It's almost beside the point. I'm like, there's some hurt in their heart. Are you curious to know what it is? And then can you grieve with them? That's the word I actually think makes the most sense. We talk a lot about validation. Validation is hard because it's like, well, am I agreeing with them? Am I, like, validating their negative narrative? The word I think is actually closer to the center is like, for example. Mom, I never really felt like you encouraged me a lot as a kid. You were always really hard on me about grades, and I just felt like nothing was good enough for you. It's like, in my mind, I'm thinking, I was just trying to help you. I was just trying to help you succeed. What do you mean I didn't love you? What about all the times that I cooked for you and I cleaned for you and I was at every game? It's easy to go down that path of defensiveness, but then to back up and be like, can I grieve that there is something they desired from me? There was love they didn't experience from me that they wanted to experience. That doesn't mean I didn't express it. I might have expressed all the love I had had in my heart, but they didn't receive the love experience, the love that I had in my heart and the way that made sense to them. And so I can back up and I can say something. Not like I'm agreeing with all their negative, like, oh, you're right, honey, I never loved you. You're not saying stuff like that. What you are saying is like, tell me what it was like when I was really getting on you about grades and you just really needed my encouragement. What were some of the things you really wished you could could hear from me in those moments?

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Matthias]

And then kids like, well, I just wish I was good enough without having just to perform for you. Oh, honey, I clearly did not do a good enough job of making sure you knew how proud I am of you. And that's powerful because you didn't acknowledge some negative thing like, oh, I wasn't proud of you. Yeah. You're not undercutting your love. You're not getting defensive. And you are acknowledging that just because I had it in my heart, it doesn't mean just because I sent the mail doesn't mean they received it.

[Jefferson]

Yeah, you're not putting the. But what about, you know, getting defensive,

[Matthias]

like, well, and I tried to do this. I tried to do this.

[Jefferson]

So let's put it in. I want to put in a really digestible package.

[Matthias]

Good.

[Jefferson]

Specifically for the adults who are going, Jefferson Matthias. We feel lost. And how do I first have this kind of perspective into the adult kids that are listening? We're going to get there, too. So this is. This is just really with adults because there's been some kind of disconnect. And I find that I hear more from parents complaining and concerned and really hurt about estrangement than I do the adult kids. Adult kids are more like. It's just.

[Podcast Promoter]

It is what it is.

[Matthias]

And that's because the parents are surprised. Right. That kind of goes back to point.

[Jefferson]

So there's a lot more hurt. There's a lot more hurt. So how do you keep an open door with this? What we've heard is, let's say, one, you need to validate the experience. You agree with that?

[Matthias]

Yeah, I use the word grieve, but validate, same thing. Sure.

[Jefferson]

Okay. And so when we say grieve, what's going to come to my mind is that I need to be really sad. I don't feel like I should be really sad because I have a hard time accessing sad that happened years ago. And we're talking about something years ago. So when we say, I think grieve is the right word.

[Matthias]

Yeah, I guess my definition for grief is responding authentically to reality. Meaning if there is sadness or shame or fear, if there's brokenness, I'm letting that reach my heart, and then I'm responding authentically to how that makes me feel. So that might be sadness in some cases. In other cases, it might be, I think, shame. But we gotta be careful with shame, because if we, I don't know, indulge that too deeply, then it turns the attention back on us. I think there is some times to, like, connect to our kids. Sadness. That's what's underneath all the spiky anger. Because what we feel as parents is like, gosh they're so angry at me. And then what I'm trying to show actually is there's a lot of sadness under there. And if you can connect to that, that's actually going to let it kind of almost like process through and then you can get to the calm and to the peace and feel connected again.

[Jefferson]

I heard this saying once that it was something along the lines of, I sat beside my good friend anger, and anger responded. My name's not anger, it's grief. That's what I mean, that angry. I'm just so mad at them. But really underneath it, it's really a lot of brokenness and sadness.

[Matthias]

We have anger too, because we feel as parents. The parents I talk to feel how

[Jefferson]

many injury, by the way?

[Matthias]

Three. Yeah, three little ones.

[Jefferson]

I got two. You're crazy for having three. I got two.

[Matthias]

Well, and I'll just say, like, that doesn't make me an expert on this because my kids are young. You know, it's like, I'll learn my own lessons in this.

[Jefferson]

Yeah, but your insight comes from the thousands of people in the same way that we've had. We hear from a lot of people because we're in a position to hear from a lot of people. So if we're going to give them a breakdown, it is one instead of defending, you need to validate or let's say affirm or grieve the experience. Which means it is tell me how you experience this. And when they tell you it's not fighting it, it's what?

[Matthias]

Yeah, I think it's grieving it, it's engaging it.

[Jefferson]

So you have a conversation starters.

[Matthias]

Yeah, sure, sure, sure. So I think what this often just practically to get really concrete is like what this often starts is some form of a text or a letter. Usually when you're cut off from a kid and they're not speaking to you, you're either sending a text, you' letter, if you don't have their address or something like that, we can talk about those particulars. But you're saying something along lines. I actually have a step by step process, like a template that I teach parents of these certain steps. And these steps aren't just like, say this here, say this there. ChatGPT could do that for you. But like what I did is I asked actually 40,000 adult kids, what do you wish your parents would say in a letter? If you have a hard relationship with your mom and dad, what do you wish they'd say? And so we built a template out of those responses.

[Jefferson]

What was the number One thing that you heard from these kids, I wish

[Matthias]

that they'd see my pain. That's what they say generally. What they mean concretely is a bit more specific than that. Tell me, what they mean specifically is that they would take accountability for some of the pain that they've caused. In some ways, that ownership, that they would acknowledge some of the pain that I've been through and that they would see some of the current patterns that are real boundaries in our relationship and take those seriously. There's not a demand that you have to agree with everything that I agree with or you have to change all these sorts of beliefs. But it is like we have to have a negotiation over what it looks like to stay and be close. And if the expectation is that I just let everything kind of go under the bridge and then I just kind of get on the page with however you want this relationship to feel and look like I'm not open to that. So it is. Pay attention to what matters to me and listen to what hurt me. That's the deeper thing. And we've seen just through my group, because I have probably about 2,500 adult kids and parents in this program that we go [e-mail] and we've watched parents attempt that in different ways because I think a lot of parents want to. A lot of parents want to see their kids pain and attend to it. But there's speed bumps and snags and they say things one way and their kids hear it another way. And so what we found is there's really specific ways that kids can ingest it and hear it that are really helpful. The first way is if you can take a specific regret and then talk about what you wish you did different. So instead of, you know, son, I'm sorry if I ever did anything that hurt you. That doesn't go very deep because it's so general, because it's so global and sweeping, it doesn't penetrate the heart very closely.

[Jefferson]

So affirmation, whenever you're validating somebody's experience, you need to be specific. More specific the better, probably.

[Matthias]

More specific the better. And you're using it as an example, meaning like, you know, honey, I remember when the divorce happened, we sat at the table and we were just quiet at dinner that night. And then you went off to your room. I should have checked on you. I was really. Yeah, I could have checked on you. I was really overwhelmed that night. But man, you were a kid. If I was overwhelmed. I'm a grown up. You must have been even More overwhelmed with what was happening.

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Matthias]

I didn't know the words to say, but I should have tried.

[Jefferson]

If I could go back and do it differently, I would.

[Matthias]

Yeah. I wish I had knocked on the door. I wish I asked questions. I wish I had. And it's not just, oh, I wish I knew what to do or I wish I could have. Da, da. It's more specific. It's like, I wish I kept trying. So much of the time is the language that lands better.

[Jefferson]

So I have a framework that I've been teaching on how to repair after eruption.

[Matthias]

I want to hear it.

[Jefferson]

And estrangement is definitely a very big rupture. And so I want you to critique it for me now that I have my estrangement expert with me. Okay. First is there has to be ownership. You have to take accountability. Say I did that, that happened. Which is really hard for some people. It's not mean. It doesn't mean you're right or I'm wrong. It's that happened. So you have to have that kind of ownership of it. Second is affirming the feeling. That sounds frustrating. That sounds hopeless. I hear you. I hear all of that. It's like you are simply just how you feel is absolutely okay to feel. It's not trying to tell them to feel a different way about it. And third is what hurts you hurts me.

[Matthias]

That's good.

[Jefferson]

Meaning I hate that I've caused you this much pain and I had no clue about it. I hate that I have. You need to show that your pain makes a difference in how I'm currently feeling in the present, even though it happened in the past. And then last is next time. Meaning if I could do it differently, what I would do is it's some kind of action step. Or what I hear or what I've learned is that I'm not going to bring this up anymore. This is something that we're going to leave, and I own that. I used to bring that up hearing you. I'm not going to do that anymore. And when you package it that way without a single but. What about but? Yeah, but. Or beginning with that's not. That's not true. That's not what I said. That's not what happened.

[Matthias]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

That kind of stuff, you know, your best efforts got you here.

[Matthias]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

All right. And so what are you going to do about it? You can't say that all I did was perfect when you're. When you're right here. So I need the Matthias.

[Matthias]

I love it. The one sub point I put under Your first step of own it is. You're owning the facts, not their story.

[Jefferson]

Okay?

[Matthias]

Meaning if they come to you and say, you never loved me, I'm not owning that I never loved them. All you care about is yourself, and you just love me. If you can control me. You're not owning their label. You're not owning their negative narrative. You're owning the facts. And the facts of the matter is sometimes there were ways that we could have expressed love in ways that they could have received it better. Meaning, like, take the one of, like, you only love what you can, you know, if you can control me. Like, honey, I feel like there were so many times that we got in arguments and I was trying to fix the situation when I should have slowed down and just make sure you felt how much I loved you and I should have been more present with you. I'm so sorry. It's like trying to find those little nuggets, those little places where there is a grain of truth, even in the negative narrative. Because even in these hyperbolic, exaggerated accusations of even something intense like, mom, you're a narcissist. To be able to slow down and say, like, you know, honey, I bet there were times where I remember when the divorce happened, I was really overwhelmed and focused on my own pain. That that season where there was addiction, that season where there's lots of different people that I was dating that were coming in and out of the house.

[Jefferson]

I was. I was absent, I was not around.

[Matthias]

I was absent, I was not around. I was focused on myself. There was things I missed with you that were really important. You're right. So notice we're owning the pain, but we're not owning the label. We're not owning the narrative. So many of us get stuck at the beginning of this process because we're like, well, we have to get on the same page on the story first. And then I can take accountability once we're being reasonable. But then it's like, well, you can actually dodge the label. You can dodge the narrative and just go right for the heart. How would you explain that?

[Jefferson]

Well, I want to make sure I don't misunderstand. You said you would own. To me, it would make more sense that you own the feelings, but you don't own the facts. Or do you. Do you flip them?

[Matthias]

I flip them. But tell me what. How you see it. Maybe we're saying the same thing different

[Jefferson]

ways, because sometimes I don't. I don't agree with the facts. You know what I mean? Like, I don't I don't agree with.

[Matthias]

Can you give me an example?

[Jefferson]

Yeah. So let's say somebody goes, you were never around and you're like, what are you talking about? Yeah, I was around. I. I did this. I did this, I did this, I did this. Look at all the facts. Exactly.

[Matthias]

Right. So, yeah, that's. So we are. We're using different terms for saying the same thing. Right. That's a story. That's a label. You were never around.

[Jefferson]

Right.

[Matthias]

So that's not factual. So then what are the facts? And can I own that? Even if it's 5% true. Can I find the 5% and own that?

[Jefferson]

I like that a lot better. Let's find. Let me find the 5% and own that. Because we won't. We're not going to reach there in the 95.

[Matthias]

It's not all or nothing.

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Matthias]

Were there times I wasn't around?

[Jefferson]

Probably, yes. Could you have been around more?

[Matthias]

Sure.

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Matthias]

Or was I just not around as much as they wanted?

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

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[Jefferson]

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[Jefferson]

Because we don't really do sodas, but

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[Jefferson]

I think what we're both saying, which

[Matthias]

this is, by the way, it's cool. Putting frameworks together and yeah, by the way.

[Jefferson]

Yeah, this is like, we're such nerds about.

[Matthias]

We're in the laboratory.

[Jefferson]

We're in the lab right now. That's what they.

[Podcast Promoter]

What.

[Jefferson]

What do y'. All. What did they say? We're cook. We're cooking.

[Matthias]

We're cooking.

[Jefferson]

We're cooking. What are those kids saying? Yeah, we're cooking.

[Matthias]

We're chopped.

[Jefferson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We're not in our 40s yet. We're still kids. So. Okay, the. The a bright line rule that I'm hearing is affirming their feeling has nothing to do with agreeing what they're feeling.

[Matthias]

Bingo. Yeah.

[Jefferson]

Like, you don't have to. You don't have to agree with how they feel to validate how they feel. So what are some. When you hear when somebody goes, you never cared. You never showed me love. You never did this. And what I want to hear from you is instead of this, I want you to think of saying this.

[Matthias]

Yeah. Instead of doubling down on your good intention, instead of doubling down on what you tried to do, you're going to look for that 5% that could be true. And often that has to do with what they desired, what they experienced, how they felt. And what you can say, and often is something like, there were times that I wasn't there. There were times when I was harsh. There were times when I was controlling. It sounded like you needed blank from me, and I didn't do enough of that. Even if you did a lot of it. I mean, so like an accusation of, you never encouraged me. You could think. Well, I doted over you. What are you talking about? I encouraged you all the time. You could think, oh, okay. Well, I didn't encourage them as much as they desired or in the way they desired or enough. That's okay. We can't mind read. We're not over here with some standard that we were supposed to be perfect. But what we can acknowledge, and that's what I mean by grief, when we grieve with them as we connect to that. Oh, there was a part of their heart that wanted to feel more encouraged, wanted to feel more affirmed. Their personality, their temperament. Maybe it's different than my personality and temperament. They needed more verbal affirmation. Okay, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I didn't do that. There were so many times that you were questioning how I felt about you, that as a parent, that's on me. Not because I can control everything or read your mind, but because my job as your parent is to make sure you know how much I love you.

[Jefferson]

Right.

[Matthias]

How would you boil that down into something more concrete?

[Jefferson]

So what my mind says is, instead of the I didn't care enough. What are you talking about? I didn't care enough? What do you mean, I didn't love you? Do you know how much I provided for you? What do you think your grandmother did when I was, you know, instead of that, which is all defending why? Because the complaint by the child, the adult child would say, you're not a good mom. And so that's what you're hearing. And so you're feeling that I'm not a good mom. You go, I'm not. And so the scripture, the story that you're fighting against is that you're not a good mom. And you're like, of course I am. Do you know what kind of mom I had in my life? You know, you think, if I'm a bad mom, what do you think I have? And so when the child is saying that, what the mom is hearing or the dad is hearing is, you are not a good dad, you are not a good mom. Which is spiking the very fear that, like, hits on the. They're going to get flooded, they're going to get defensive. Because I find that those are types of things when we talk about, I didn't get enough love, attention, all the needs in my life. It's what is really a bid for connection. They hear as criticism or like highly sensitive of criticism.

[Matthias]

Sometimes it comes out spiky.

[Jefferson]

Well, yeah, it's going to. It's going to be messy. And it's like, how do you get past. How do you have the mindset of, just because my child needs something from me does not make me a bad mom. It's like, you can. There is enough grace. What would it look like if this conversation had enough grace that I can acknowledge the pain that my child or the experience my child had and still know that I was a good mom? You know, of like, both things can be true because I did the best I could with, you know, with.

[Matthias]

With.

[Jefferson]

With what I had. So that's usually of like the zinger that just rings the bell for a lot of parents.

[Matthias]

I think there's a lot of fear.

[Jefferson]

I'm a bad mom or I'm a bad dad. And so they fight really hard against that one. Really, it's right there in front of you of just affirming of. I. I hear that if that was. If that's how that came across or if that's what you felt, I don't blame you for feeling so frustrated and hurt and all that. I hate that that's how you feel, that I would never have wanted that. And knowing what I know now, what I could have done, what I should have done, what you needed from me more is, you know, I love everything you said.

[Matthias]

That makes total sense to me.

[Jefferson]

I love everything you said.

[Matthias]

Thanks. I was just like nodding along. I wasn't even thinking of my three step thing. I was just like, man, you're vibing.

[Podcast Promoter]

I.

[Matthias]

Okay, well, one thing I'd add to it is like, if we're going to try to treat this conflict with our kid as the determiner of whether I was a good mom or dad, like if we really do put that aspect of our identity, this is really good.

[Jefferson]

I think this is it.

[Matthias]

Right?

[Jefferson]

Well, to me it's like my brain's spinning on that. So keep telling me.

[Matthias]

Yeah, if we're gonna put that in their camp, we're gonna be desperate in litigating and defending and arguing and it's gonna be completely sideways from what the kid is hoping for.

[Jefferson]

You gave me that word, litigating.

[Matthias]

You're a lawyer, you love that.

[Jefferson]

Yeah, yeah, you gave me that. Made me tingle.

[Matthias]

It's just I heard that word. It's a different conversation.

[Jefferson]

Yeah, let's not use that word. Let's try to use that word. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matthias]

So, okay, it's a different conversation. It's not even a bad conversation. Like so much of the time I hear parents like, when do I get to actually talk about the pain I've been through or the hardship or when like my mom was 10 times worse or my dad was 10 times worse? And I often say it's pacing. It's not that you never get to have this conversation. You just need to swallow your experience and just fall on your sword or grovel or anything. It's pacing. And if you're in a highly tense circumstance with your kid to the point where they don't even want to speak with you, we have pace. It starts most often with attending to their pain, with grieving their losses and unmet needs. And then as trust is built, you have the foundation, the kind of the nest to be able to hold the relationship. You can talk more about your experience.

[Jefferson]

Here's one thing I did want to mention to you. I wanted to ask you to do this. What do you do? What do you tell specifically mothers whose son has married and they have a daughter in law now who has cut their son off from them. In other words, this daughter in law for good intentions, bad Intentions. All the above has said I'm the person who's going to say all the experience of what you are to think and I'm going to cut everything else off. One, is that something you see? And then two, what do you tell these mothers?

[Matthias]

There was a study by Josh Coleman and colleagues. He's a friend of mine, he interviewed a thousand mothers and 80% of them, when you ask them what's causing the estrangement sided either most often a daughter in law but the their child's spouse or their ex partner as essentially sabotaging or pointing. Yeah, an ex husband. Right, exactly. Pointing their kid against them. And only 16% of those mothers thought that their behavior had something to do with it. And so this is so, so common in particular with mothers in particular. And I don't really have an agenda trying to say like, well no, it's not that the daughter in laws are fine or you need to look at your own stuff. Like it can totally happen. It can totally happen. Where you marry into a new family, there's a totally different culture, totally different milieu. The daughter in law has a negative experience of the mother and then starts to have conversation and that kind of starts to feed into like a negative view of the family or of a parent. Totally happens. My thing that I always ask parents to look at is like lies. Let's say it's a lie. Lies can't take root if there's not hurt in the soil. So for example, I don't have a dog. Do you have a dog? You don't have a dog. I don't see any dogs. I don't see any dogs.

[Jefferson]

I mean, I'm not against dogs, but we're just. Yeah.

[Matthias]

Can you imagine the hate we'd get if we just announced we were Jefferson and Matthias are against dogs.

[Jefferson]

Yeah. Oh my goodness. That would be. That would be the downfall. That would be the last podcast we ever do. Yeah, yeah, no, we love dogs.

[Matthias]

Okay, so golden retrievers. Let's see.

[Jefferson]

This episode is sponsored by dogs.

[Matthias]

Yeah, Pedigree, let's say that, I don't know, someone's trying to convince you that your golden retriever hated your guts.

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Matthias]

You know, like this buddy, the dog actually hates you. You would laugh because there's not even a kernel. There's no possibility that's true. There's no context for that lie to even take root. And so what I know, and this is also true in parental alienation, is that if a lie is taking root, then my first question is what is the hurt in the soil. If you take accountability for the hurt in the soil, the facts in the soil, the lie starves and can't take root. Here's an example of it. So I was talking to a dad. This is kind of reversed from moms, but I was talking to a dad where went through a hard divorce, his daughters moved to a different state with his ex wife. And the ex wife was like, your dad didn't follow us here because he loves money more than you.

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Matthias]

And he's like, I'm trying to get a job. I actually want to move up there and be near them. But I have to, like, it's not just as easy as, like, you know, book the moving car. Like, I need to work on this, that and the other. So it was six months before you could get over there. And then the daughters by that time are like, like, nope, mom said that you basically don't even care about us. It's all just about money.

[Jefferson]

The ex I hear typically is the ex has been whispering in their ear.

[Matthias]

Yeah, I mean, that happens. Men and women. Like that can happen all sorts of places. It's very similar to the daughter in law dynamic. And so then what? I told him it's just like, what does it look like for you to take responsibility for the hurt that's in the soil? And he's like, well, what do you mean? And I'm like, what would it look like for you to tell your daughter? You know what? You're right. There was six months where I wasn't here. What was it like for you to go into a new school, to go into no more friends? I bet that was kind of overwhelming. And you didn't have your dad. What was that like for you? And that's what I mean by grief. Because she might say it was overwhelming. I was lonely, I was sad, I was confused. And you go, honey, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry that happened. When that happens, the walls soften and then the narrative is more open to editing, and then you can have conversations not to litigate again, but I just find that if you get to the hurt underneath, the lie becomes way less relevant. So in the daughter son dynamic, it's like instead of debating whether you're controlling or you secretly hate this or you're narcissistic that, it's like, what is the hurt in the soil? And what can I take ownership of, even if it's 5%? Because the more I do that, the more it infuses. Health, positivity, truth, understanding, and creates more room for conversation. That's not to say we can control the outcome of that. We can't control another family member or a daughter or son in law or an ex into. And sometimes there's deceit and propaganda that's beyond what we can do. But that's our first move.

[Jefferson]

What do you say to the parents, the mom who could be listening going, yeah, I've done that. I have owned what I've owned and I can't help that this daughter in law is spreading lies. She's gaslighting, she's walling me off. And my son is in a no win situation. If he starts reaching out to me, he's going to have hardship at home, you know, and if he takes her side, it's going to be hurting the mom. You know, what do you. Has there been any advice that you've given to these?

[Matthias]

Yep, here's how I phrase it. You're going to the play I think makes the most sense is to try to get into family counseling. And you can do that through letters or if you have the opportunity to do phone calls. And here's how you phrase it, you say, hey, you know what? I'm realizing that there's some patterns in our family, like just through I think our dialogues. I've realized there are maybe some patterns of unhealth in our family that have kind of come to light, I guess, just in our conversations. I want to know what those are and really work on them and take ownership for my part in it. I want you to feel relaxed around me. I want your wife to feel relaxed around me. And I'm grieving that there's been so much hurt and so many elephants in the room. Here's my idea. If we could go to family therapy together, I think that therapist would really help me stay on track to pay attention and understand the hurt that you're holding or some of the patterns that you're realizing might be making it hard for us to feel close. My goal is that we can feel close and relax together. That you get to be completely honest about what you're feeling and that you can trust that I'm really listening to you. I know that's a mouthful, but something in a text or a letter like that has had so much more success than trying to convince the son that she's being unreasonable or trying to go directly to the daughter and have a big Facebook DM back and forth argument with her.

[Jefferson]

Don't DM on Facebook when you have

[Matthias]

that third party that's interfering. I really feel like you need to get all the parties to the table. And often having either a therapist or someone that can help slow everyone down, keep a good pace and make sure that criticism or talking over each other doesn't happen is your best move.

[Jefferson]

When I think of the situation, and I mean, like you, I've had moms just crying saying I can't reach out to my son, which is heartbreaking. What I try and give, because that's such a huge thing is the understanding

[Matthias]

of

[Jefferson]

if you've already reached out and really you're focused on trying to heal the family rather than fix her, you know, if you can purchase from that mindset is not the what if, but it's the even if instead of what if they never talk. What if I don't. What if they don't answer. Even if they don't. Even if you never talk to him for three more years, even if it is like what are you gonna. Because there has to be such a proportion, like unproportionate amount of now that this person is removed. Who I carried, who I, you know, gave to is now gone and does not no longer needs me. Like that's a huge element of loss of identity. Like who am I if I can't.

[Matthias]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

If I can't do that. Yeah, that's because there's. Sometimes there's just. The truth is we can talk about this for as long as we want. It's not going to make that husband or daughter not be who they are to cut off your child from you or to open that door back. Because I know it's been. I have somebody who. It was his younger brother who got married and she hates the whole family and has cut him off from everybody. So what do you do? You have to make sure you're leaving the door open more than you are. We are closing it. One thing I'm picking up on is when you're going into the mode of like explaining and talking, your voice gets really quiet. So if we're going to say this, how do you. What does this kind of stuff sound like? If it's in a text or a letter or, you know, anything that is a very text based transaction, you're not going to be able to whisper. Right. So I do think less words is better.

[Matthias]

Yeah. Yeah. Be brief.

[Jefferson]

What would you say to. I like a voicemail. If they'll allow you to have a voicemail, that's a good idea.

[Matthias]

I don't think about that as much. Yeah, I'm gonna use that and incorporate that. I think when you can Hear someone's voice, you hear the emotion in their voice.

[Jefferson]

Correct. That way they won't, you know, you hear pain.

[Matthias]

Ah, Jefferson, I'm taking that you can't read pain. I'm frustrated. I didn't think of that. No, it's good. You're right. Voicemail. Yeah, that should be at the top of the list.

[Jefferson]

Yeah, you can. And you can check out my profile on estrangement.com for further tips.

[Matthias]

Yeah, that's good.

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[Jefferson]

I firmly agree when they say how do I in repair language if I'm going to be in the act of repairing. Regardless of the rupture, you have to be able to lower that voice because

[Matthias]

the softer it is, you're approaching with tenderness, softness.

[Jefferson]

And it's really hard to be soft sometimes when you're, when you're flooded, it's almost. To me, it's impossible really, for me, when I know I'm getting defensive and being really hard, It's. I don't I don't want to be soft. I don't want to have a soft voice. But I know when I am regulated it's a lot easier to reach those feelings. And. Yeah, and softness because it's, it makes a big difference when you're able to lower your voice in a way that's going to make them feel like you really mean it.

[Matthias]

Well, something that we found really helpful in our group, we have kind of like a group forum where people can post the letters that they're writing to their kids.

[Jefferson]

I like that.

[Matthias]

And then you can actually get feedback from other adult kids or other parents. Which is pretty neat because kids write letters too. Sometimes it's like you're writing a boundary letter. Like here's kind of like what I hope can maybe provide a structure so we can have a healthy relationship. Other times it's like a request. Like, I'd really love to invite you to therapy or something. For parents, what's cool is you can write your letter, maybe taking ownership over a specific regret or something like that, and then you can post it and the kids will be like, ah, well, you're wording here. If my mom said that, that would kind of trigger me here. Or maybe just like you talk a lot about your experience in therapy and how much it's changed your life, but we don't need three paragraphs on that. That almost kind of draws the attention back onto you. If you just kind of like summarize that a little shorter and then get to their experience, that's always better, you know.

[Jefferson]

So it's best not to bring your up your experience at all.

[Matthias]

Two sentences is great, but like, yeah, I mean, and again, we're just talking like strategically what we've been shown to open the door. And I think that a letter helps you sit and think and then really kind of go over it a few times. I would recommend writing it out first and then doing the voicemail. Not necessarily that you need to read the letter on the voicemail, but something about writing does help you organize your thoughts and really reflect.

[Jefferson]

Yeah. Hands down. I think writing is an excellent idea

[Matthias]

and even getting feedback on the writing because what you don't want to do is just grovel and just try to say the right words and say the script in order to get things backwards. That doesn't work in the long run and you don't want to come off defensive or accidentally slip in even stuff that feels overly self critical towards yourself. This is kind of a tightrope. And so being able to slow down and take it at a good pace and even get some feedback on it. I've seen produce better letters. Here's another thought. This is pro tip. Postcards are more often received than letters. When we say received, meaning the kid opens them.

[Jefferson]

Yeah. Yeah. Because they'd have to.

[Matthias]

I can tell a personal story. My dad, when me and my dad were estranged. I haven't mentioned that yet, but me and my dad were estranged for three years. We reconciled and stuff out. Yeah. Yeah.

[Jefferson]

How long ago was it?

[Matthias]

It was seven years ago.

[Jefferson]

Okay.

[Matthias]

Yeah. He's given me permission to share pieces of this, but there was an affair that came to light that he was having and then there was a stint where he was in rehab for an alcohol addiction. And it was just a lot of pain and hurt. And then my mom came and lived with us kind of in the fallout of that. And so there was just a lot of tension as they were navigating their divorce. And so I took it a break from contact for a short amount of time. And then it was like a three year ordeal kind of off and on, but it was like painful. He sent me a letter once. I was very thick. I remember getting the letter. The envelope was just. I could tell there's a lot in there. And I was like, gosh. And I set that letter on my mantle. Sat there for three months. I was just waiting for enough emotional energy to open it. I was like, oh, this is going to be a big long. I don't know. I don't know what it is. Maybe it's him laying into me. Maybe it's him like a pity party. Maybe it's like victim. I don't know. I had all these ideas in my head of what was in that letter. You know what it was? Stickers for the kids. That's all it was really just princess stickers.

[Jefferson]

What'd you learn from that?

[Matthias]

That sometimes when you send an envelope, the kid builds a story of what's inside that envelope. They're making a decision whether to open that or not before they even know what's inside. And they're determining that off their past experience with you. You not holding in mind your reflection or your personal growth or your process. They don't know that because that's what's inside.

[Jefferson]

Right.

[Matthias]

And so what we found was when parents started sending postcards or texts or emails where you can kind of get like, you can almost kind of get a little like flash of the first couple sentences and skim a little bit to see what we're in for, so much higher response Rate. So just a funny little technical metric thing that I also think that people just.

[Podcast Promoter]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

Well, I think it's a powerful story. Thank you for sharing that with us, because that's not a small thing.

[Matthias]

Well, and another thing. Another letter. This is funny. My dad sent me another letter, and I could tell it was written by ChatGPT. And I stopped reading that about halfway through, and I was like, all right, never mind. So any parents who think that's the best call, kids can usually sniff it out. And even if they can't, I had someone in a workshop once be like, hey, I sent a letter written by AI to my. My daughter. She loved it. She was in tears. She said, this is everything I hope to hear from you. But I didn't actually read the letter. I kind of just sent it without even reading it. We're going to a coffee date. What do I do now?

[Jefferson]

Oh, that's. Reminds me of. We both have kids. I'm like, that reminds me of Aladdin. You know what I mean? I have to keep up with the prince. She's not gonna want Aladdin.

[Matthias]

I refer to it as. It's kind of like lying on your dating profile. And it's like, I'm six three, and you show up and they're five, seven. And it's like, but I'm a nice

[Jefferson]

guy, six foot, and I'm five' nine.

[Matthias]

And it's like, of course. Course, of course. And you started with a lie.

[Jefferson]

Well, I mean, that's the thing with. I think AI is great at giving you tools to say, this is what it could look like. But AI cannot connect for you. It cannot repair for you. It cannot build your character. It cannot restore and repair the way you can. But it's great at, I think, pointing holes and what the other person might be feeling or thinking and using that kind of as a sounding board.

[Sponsor Announcer]

I.

[Jefferson]

When I think of, like, the letter. Right. Of not wanting to open it. And I think that's a very good point of if you don't say it, they're going to have the conversation for you.

[Matthias]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

And it's not going to be flattering. Right. You know, if you choose to go, well, it just is what it is. You know what? I could call them, but I'm not. What I say is the conversation you're avoiding is the result that you're choosing. So, like, you're able to.

[Matthias]

Like, that's what makes you the best. That's so good.

[Jefferson]

Yeah, that's. But, like, that is. That's what's happening is if you don't, if you don't call them, if you don't reach out, I assure you the outcome set. They're going to be saying it for you.

[Matthias]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

They're going to be assuming and saying it all in your head and it's not going to be what you want. I want to go, we talked about moms. I want to talk about dads like you. I hear from a lot of dads who go, yeah, my wife and I divorced. I work, you know, and I born to my work and I didn't want to come home. And yes, I was emotionally unavailable because she was home and I didn't want to do this. And it left me away from my kids. And now my daughters or my sons are. Now it's been 10 years and they hate my guts and I don't know how to respond to that. And they feel like I'm the one paying for things and trying to do stuff and, and it's all the more even when they've had like I talked to dads who've, they've remarried.

[Matthias]

Right.

[Jefferson]

Or they have other kids or they're taking on step kids and yet they cannot reach their own biological children.

[Matthias]

Yeah.

[Jefferson]

Does that, do you see that so common.

[Matthias]

Yeah, it's more common than mothers. I mean, so when you look at the data. So like Rexak and colleagues showed that like a fourth of the population is estranged from a parent. 26% is estranged from fathers. Only 6% are estranged from mothers.

[Jefferson]

I wonder how many is of how many fathers are wanting to come back. Are those that just like, want to do nothing with him and left the family and, you know, just ran off.

[Matthias]

Well, here's what I see more often is like there's so much pain and dad doesn't know what to say and so he chooses to be silent. And not because he doesn't care, not because he's stubborn.

[Jefferson]

Right.

[Matthias]

But because he doesn't want to make it worse. And so it's like, how do I reach out to you? How do I make this right? How do I do this? And so some common avenues is like, I try to financially provide, I try to do gifts, I try to show up and do acts of service. Like, I try to like be there in some of those ways.

[Jefferson]

Sometimes that's cut against them. It's like all they do is just send a gift and they think a gift is going to get them in.

[Matthias]

Yeah. Because it's interpreted by the kid. Most often it's almost like bribery or trying to buy my way back. And that's not how the dad means it. It's just that's a common way it's experienced.

[Jefferson]

What are the other avenues?

[Matthias]

Well, I think that it's helpful to know that there's some data that shows that sons are more often to find, let's say, kind of some of the points of conflict, some of the friction in the relationship. It's more common that sons feel frustration over dad's politics. And it's more common that daughters take more issue with dad's religious or lack of religious belief, that some of the actual arguments can cut differently depending on sons and daughters. Daughters are often more likely to try to pursue their fathers and stay in connection with their fathers. Sons are more likely that if the conversation's not going well or we grade against each other on principle or on beliefs to kind of cut ties. And so I think that the strategy that you take as a dad to try to reach out to your kid can be nuanced. Depending on sons and daughters and some of those general examples, every family is different. But let's take these examples as if they kind of held. It's like with a daughter, I'm really trying to see, like, what are the deep values that you try to, like, build your life around, whether it's your family, whether it's your religious beliefs, whether it's how you engage the world, what matters to you? And I need to express that those things matter to me too, or find the ones that do. Maybe if we don't agree on everything, fine, but find the things that really matter. And I need you to see the tender parts of my heart and then to be able to express my regret, not in a way that is overly shameful on me, like, oh, I'm such a bad dad, or I screwed up, or I'm sorry I ruined your childhood, or these big kind of sweeping statements. But really just in getting really good at asking questions about things that matter to your daughter, that's the skill you want to double down on. How do I ask questions about things that matter to her? For his son, it's going to be a little bit different. It's going to be more so on finding the things that really matter to him, as far as whether it's his business, his reputation, principles, things he believes, and showing that you respect and that you honor it. You're not trying to push it down or condescend to it most of the time.

[Jefferson]

When I hear from fathers who are estranged from their kids, it quickly turns to the mom, right? The ex or whatever of their Poisoning the will. You know, they're saying things that aren't true. They're cutting me off. And now my daughter is just like her mom, you know what I mean? And so there is a lot of feelings there that she's just like her, that my wife's ruined. In other words, there's no coming back from this because they're too far gone. They think everything that. Because the mom's been feeding them this misinformation or whatever it is. I mean, do you find that. Does the research show any difference in like, that surprised me of that there's more men, actually. Fathers are estranged. Is there anything else that you see in the data?

[Matthias]

Six times more.

[Jefferson]

Yeah. What? Say that again.

[Matthias]

Six times more people are estranged from a father than a mother.

[Jefferson]

Yeah. That's incredible to me, I guess.

[Matthias]

Well, you know, here's my guess why it's incredible because the moms are usually the ones who are trying to fix it. And so, like, when you are doing your Q and A's, or I'm, you know, doing my events or whatever, it's moms in the audience.

[Jefferson]

I want you to say that again. So tell me the reason why it's six times. Why do you think six times? Yeah. How does it say six times? What do you see?

[Matthias]

I think that it really. Well, okay. There's lots of theories we actually don't know, but I'm more interested on why the dad stays silent. Because there is kind of this feeling of like I failed them or they don't want me, or they're just like their mom. There's some narrative that really reinforces for the data of like, this is basically impossible. Or it's often they take insult because for the dad, it's like, I tried to provide for you. I tried to be there for you. I did reach out. You shut me down. What else can I do? And a lot of that emotional language and the empathy and the grieving with them and the taking responsibility, a lot of that stuff feels a lot more out of reach, feels less native. It's not necessarily anything anyone's ever shown to me. And so it feels like, wow, I'm being held to these impossibly high standards, no understanding or respect being thrown my way. And I'm supposed to just kind of grovel and. And roll over to your demands? No, thanks. I was talking to a guy on a plane. I sat down and then I had a guy sit next to me. Korean dad. You're Matthias Barker. You're the estrangement guy. And I'm like, oh, yeah. So we had the whole flight to talk, and he's like, my daughter basically just wishes I was dead. I was like, tell me about it. Tell me what's going on. I was like, well, she was mad that I. She said that I criticized her about her grades, that nothing I did was. Or nothing she did was ever good enough for me, that I basically only care about money and performance. And then I'm like, what do you wish she understood? I was like, well, that I grew up poor, and we worked really hard to be able to get here. And I watched my mom. You know, he had a story of immigration where, like, mom really suffered and worked really hard, and this was, like, a really deep value, that providing for your family and being able to secure economic stability was survival. And then as I was talking to him, I'm like, how have you tried to express that to her? I was like, well, she's not open to hearing anything I have to say. And the big message that we talked about for, like, an hour and a half on the flight was, it's not that what you're saying is not important to them. It's how you're saying it is not hearable by them. The language that you're using, the approach that you're using needs to shift. And that's not because they don't think you're important. They want you dead. So much of the time, it's because what you're sending, they're not receiving. You're putting the wrong postage on the mail. If you're curious to understand the language that adult kids can hear, that daughters can hear, that sons can hear, there is hope you might have in your head. Well, they're just like their mom. They're just like this. They're ungrateful. They want me dead. They have no gratitude. They're just going to see me as the bad guy. Yeah. Those are the walls around your heart that feels hurt and often has tons of grief. No dad wants to be separated from their kid. And I'm like, if you're willing. If you're willing to be humble and just learn how to say what you really feel in your heart. In a different way, there is hope.

[Jefferson]

I find that most people who don't know what to say in conversation, it's not because they don't care. It's because they don't know how to repair.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Yeah.

[Matthias]

And they don't want to make it worse.

[Jefferson]

Yeah. They don't know the right method, the right way to go about it.

[Matthias]

There are methods.

[Jefferson]

There are definitely methods, which we've talked about, because they feel like anything I say or do makes what, everything worse. And so they would rather not approach it at all than risk the pain.

[Matthias]

And that's been their experience. That's the truth of it, is that they've tried, it hasn't worked, and it's made it worse. And so they're like, gosh, it just feels like I'm walking through a minefield and I don't want to make it even worse than it already is. And so they feel trapped.

[Jefferson]

What do you say to those parents who go, I've tried it all. They don't want anything to do with me. I hear you saying, I need to acknowledge and address the 5%. I hear all this soft whisper, matthias, but that ain't doing it. So what do you tell them in terms of a mindset?

[Matthias]

Our [e-mail], i say it over and over and over, is peace with what's possible.

[Jefferson]

What does that mean, peace with what's possible?

[Matthias]

I don't know what's possible with your family member, I don't know what's possible with your kid, I don't know when reconciliation may or may not come, but I want you to be experiencing peace as you're on your way to figuring out what's possible. Estrangement family conflict is a roller coaster. And it doesn't just end when you start talking again. Oftentimes, even if there's been a period of estrangement, a year, two years, five years, 10, you get back into contact and then it's a long road of trying to find a way to feel calm and relaxed around each other again and connect. Oftentimes, what we see in the data is there's multiple estrangements. Sometimes you talk again and then you're off, and then you hang out for a bit and then six months go by, you don't hear from them. That's more common than not. This is actually a longer journey, not just one objective, which is get them to start talking to me again.

[Jefferson]

How does someone know whether they should give up from that estranged family member or whether they should hold on for hope?

[Matthias]

Well, we need to accept what's true today and then hope for what's possible tomorrow. But how you hope is going to determine if it's suffering for you or if you can live a full, meaningful life in the meantime. If you think of hope like a pull up bar, like you're just like straining to keep your chin above it and your muscles are shaking and it's like, I hope they call, I hope they text. Christmas is here, my birthday's here. Are they going to text me? It's going to feel exhausting. You're going to feel hopeless. You're going to get self critical. It's going to be miserable. I think of hope like keeping the porch light on and even with the door locked, it's not like they can come barging in at any time. But I am willing to come to the threshold if they're willing to have a different conversation. If they come knocking, then I'm willing to go look in the peephole and see what conversation is there. That kind of hope doesn't keep me standing at the window looking at the road, wondering if they're going to come. It's a hope where I can be in the kitchen making food, having friends over, involved in my community, playing pickleball, doing my life with just the reality of they might have a change of heart. We don't know. People have health crises, people have religious experiences. People have all sorts of things that give them a change of heart that we can't predict. It feels safer to just say they're never coming back. I'm just going to essentially mourn them as if I'm never going to see them again. That's to resolve ambiguity because ambiguity is suffering.

[Jefferson]

You're searching for clarity, you're searching for certainty.

[Matthias]

And the reality is there is uncertainty about the future. That's reality. I would so much rather build your peace on reality than on some fantasy. Even if it's a harder fantasy that you can accept.

[Jefferson]

Yeah. What I often like to tell people is sometimes you have to live out the conversation that you wish you would have. Like you, I wish I could tell you I've changed. You're not giving me that chance. So I'm going to live it out, you know, and that's. That is sometimes that I think that goes to the piece of what's possible. What's possible is what would it look like if I'm never going to be able to talk to them again? How can I still honor, you know, my part of that conversation, regardless if they ever come to the table? So I think that's something that

[Matthias]

practically it doesn't really matter much if you think that they're never coming back or if they're coming back in six months or a year. Your question is, what are you doing today? All you have is today. Today could be your last day. So it's like, am I going to be standing at the window thinking about all my regrets and ruminating? Or am I going to go live my life in the meantime or work on myself and learn that language so that if they do come knocking, I'm not shooting from the head hip. I'm actually prepared to speak in a new way to own different things because I've been doing my grief work in the meantime. And that's what actually enables you to have not just good conversations but to have peace in the meantime. It's like I'm engaging in self forgiveness. I'm owning my stuff, not just even about my kid, but just within my past. And what that's going to do is it's probably going to give you a better marriage if you're married, it's probably going to make your other relationships more fruitful. It's probably going to make you just a better member of your community or an employer and everything else. So there's really nothing to lose by learning about yourself, by learning about yourself and learning how to communicate, communicate with people in different ways that are native to you. It's really only to gain is by doing this work. Although it does feel laborious, it gives you more energy than it takes in the long run.

[Jefferson]

Right. I like that imagery of. Looking out the window, hoping they'll come and forgetting to live and not taking care of yourself. So I think that's taking care of yourself is part of that conversation. I think 100% both. I find like that's kind of the trend here is both things can, can certainly be true. And I do like the. I very much like it feels safer to say really bad things about them and make it a thousand percent true in your mind.

[Matthias]

Certainty is so much more comforting. Terry Real has this line, he says that self righteous indignation which is like feeling like, oh, like they're so bad, they're so evil, they're the bad guy, I'm the good guy. That self righteousness, he says, is a mild form of grandiosity which is feeling kind of like I'm puffing out my chest. And the cost is your hard heart.

[Jefferson]

Oh, that's a good one.

[Matthias]

Oh that's so good. It's like when we hold onto those negative narratives, like we were just talking about dads a little bit ago of the like, well, she's just like her mother. They're never going to talk to me. I've tried the da da da da da. That gives us peace for a moment because we're not constantly chewing on it, ruminating on it. The cost is it hardens your heart.

[Jefferson]

Heart, yeah. So, yeah, I think that applies to a lot of what we're saying here is got to keep your heart soft. That's really hard because that means you're going to feel pain.

[Matthias]

Well. And if you forgive yourself first, then there's really no ammunition they can have in the tank that can truly injure and harm you, because you've owned it. You've owned the part of it that's true. And so then when they come with the accusations that are false, they can glide off you because that's probably more actually reflective of their pain and their stuff than has anything to do with me. And when they bring a true accusation that is reflective of something you did wrong, you've processed it and grieved it. And so you can turn the attention not to how hurt I feel, but what was the hurt that you're holding. And I'm actually emotionally free to apologize, to pay attention to your feelings, because I'm not drowning in my own stuff. I've actually digested my own stuff. I've already done that. I did that before this conversation so that I'm grounded in peace. I'm not trying to repair from my hurt. I'm trying to repair from peace.

[Jefferson]

What do you. When you hear from these parents, what's probably the number one thing they wish their child could hear?

[Matthias]

I did my best and I love you.

[Jefferson]

For the the parents that are estranged from their adult children and all of the adult children you've heard from, what's the number one thing that the adult children wishes the parent would hear?

[Matthias]

I had some unmet needs in childhood that I wish you could just acknowledge. I'm not asking you to fix me. In some cases, I want an apology. But more than that, I just want to grieve some of the loss that was hard for me to go through alone. The hardest part wasn't that you weren't perfect. It wasn't that you made mistakes. We're human. We all do that. It's that I had to go through that by myself. And I actually want to invite you in to those places. I felt lonesome and had to hold the hurt by myself so that we could hold that together. That's what allows me to relax around you, is to feel like you get it. And that's going to actually build the foundation for the trust and closeness we can have in the future. If you're willing to do that with

[Jefferson]

me, I need you to own it. And to do that, I need you to sit in my grief with Me?

[Matthias]

Yeah. It's messy, it stings, and we can get through it.

[Jefferson]

Something that's coming to mind of sometimes the conversation's not going to happen. They're not going to answer your text. They're not going to do this. And so sometimes you. You can only speak by the actions that you take. So how do they know that you're different? Right. You insist. To me, it's your learning about yourself, which is going to be therapy. Going to get help, going to read books. I don't know how many people have gone through all kinds of trauma and they just don't read. There's books right there on it. They don't want to read it. And so are there any other types of. When you know the conversation is not going to happen, any actions that somebody can take that is signaling to the other person, and I'm different than who I was before?

[Matthias]

Well, I think that ultimately the thing that's going to speak most powerfully is the energy you hold in the room. And that energy can't be faked or performed. It really has to come from the inside. And so I think about it tactfully from what actually creates that totally different feeling in the room when I'm in it. A slow pace, a kind atmosphere. I'm not just talking gentle. Sometimes I try to resist that word because I'm like. What I mean by that is calm and intentional, not angry.

[Jefferson]

How about that?

[Matthias]

Regulated. Yeah. Safe.

[Jefferson]

Not yelling.

[Matthias]

And I think at certain moments I need to be vulnerable and emotionally available. And then at certain moments, I do need to put my guard up because you're being harsh and I have to stand and set some boundaries and not be treated as a punching bag. Yeah, That I think is done by the information, the books and everything else. I also think that's done in community with other people. Some people get that through their faith community. Some people get that through group therapy or kind of maybe community centers that have support groups. That's why I did estrangement.com was to have a community of adult kids and parents, not from the same families, but both demographics of people that get on calls together, go through the journey together, read and learn together. Because then in the moments when you're just like, overwhelmed on Mother's Day, you have somewhere to go. I think that's so much, especially on the parent side and on the kid's side, but on the parents especially, you don't want to dump your grief and spiky emotions on your kid. But that doesn't mean you're just Supposed to swallow them. You do need someone to witness you and hold space for you. That could be a therapist. Like I said, that could be someone else.

[Jefferson]

Yeah, that's a good thing.

[Matthias]

Someone else doesn't need to see it. And so you shouldn't be using your

[Jefferson]

kid as like, I also want you to be my therapist. I'm going to give you all the problems that I have with what you've been doing. Like, he need to go talk to somebody else.

[Matthias]

And it doesn't work to just try to suppress it. You do need to share it. Yeah, you need to share with others. And what's really helpful is to share with other people who get it, you know? And so because you try to talk to other people that don't have any experience with estrangement, they just look at you weird, like, oh, what, your kid cut you off? What'd you do? You know?

[Podcast Promoter]

Or.

[Matthias]

Or as a kid, oh, you cut your whole family off? Like, what? Like. And it's just, you're. There's shame no matter where you look. So the community aspect, I think actually is probably one of the bigger levers.

[Jefferson]

I think how you respond to the moment that you have entered into estrangement with as a. Either a parent or as an adult child is going to either, like the approach you take is either going to confirm all of the patterns and fears in history that they have, or it's going to set you on a different approach that is going to say, I'm interested in healing and doing something different. Because if you have like a child who goes, goes, you know what, Mom, I feel, or dad, I feel like you just care about everybody else's opinion except ours. Everybody on the outside the house knew that we're so perfect, right? We went to church and we're so perfect. And we don't talk about drama and heaven forbid that people think that we actually have things to go through. And yet on the inside, we're actually crumbling, right? And if as that adult, you're going, okay, don't tell anybody about this. They don't need to know. But like, you're just, just feeding that right there. So I think they're. That falls into the. There's some traps of what you don't want to do when you can see that estrangements taking place. One of them, I think, is what I said is affirming already the pattern that's been happening. What have you seen in some other traps of when you see that estrangement's taking place? The areas to absolutely. The pitfalls to avoid.

[Matthias]

Yeah, Emotional dumping is a big one. A lot of people don't think of that one first. But it's so common that when I have regret or I'm really nervous or I'm scared, I pour out my worry, I pour out my concern. I feel like you're pulling away from me. Like, I really want us to be a family again. Like, listen, I've really tried. And that's what leads to the explaining. That's what leads to the defensiveness is justification. I'm terrified that I'm gonna lose you. And I just. It's almost like I bubble up with all of that and it just pours out. So you could think, like, there's two errors. There's the error of, like, resentment and getting angry and defensive and frustrated and argumentative. But then there's also the error of, like, dumping out all your emotions and kind of spiraling. Because then the kid feels like, oh, I gotta take care of you. I gotta be your therapist. And like, yeah, here.

[Jefferson]

I gotta take care of my parents again.

[Matthias]

I can't tell my mom anything because every time it just sends her into a spiral. They can't handle it.

[Jefferson]

But there are some parents that are like, you would say the child is. The adult child is more emotionally mature far and above than their parent because they had to. To be.

[Matthias]

Yeah, it's both.

[Jefferson]

Yeah.

[Matthias]

And so the tightrope is something like, hey, those deep emotions that kind of bubble up, I've actually processed that with other people. It's not like I just shove those down. I just have my therapist or I have my group or I have my men's group or whatever. Like, I have a place to put that. I'm not going to put that on them. And then instead of taking the resentment path, I'm going to really do some exploration of what can I own? And then can I forgive myself for that so that then I can pay attention to what my kid needs from me? And then if they throw insults, if they're spiky, if they're sharp, if they're walled off, I can experience peace with what's possible. I can engage and hold space for them. And then I can mourn the obvious grief that comes up. And that's not grief, I don't think is something that is not part of the equation or something we need to fix. Grief is just part of our human experience. Obviously there's going to be grief and we have a place to hold that with other people.

[Jefferson]

Man, it's so good to see you and have you here, Matthias, and I just appreciate all the things that you're doing for the people that are out there hurting on both sides of it. And I think what you're doing is giving a bright light of saying if there is any kind of desire at all by either side, that's a win. And so for those who haven't had that light yet, I think what you're doing is guiding them in a beautiful way. So thank you for sharing that with my audience, man.

[Matthias]

It's a gift. Thanks for having me on. Jefferson. Thanks. Love it.

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