Dave Ramsey: "How To Actually Change Their Behavior"

Summary

The Jefferson Fisher Podcast: "Why Healthy Arguments Improve Your Life" ft. Dave Ramsey

Date: July 31, 2026
Host: Jefferson Fisher (Civility Media)
Guest: Dave Ramsey
Theme: Communicate with confidence to argue less, talk more, and improve your life and business through healthier arguments.

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the positive role that healthy arguments play in both personal and professional growth. Host Jefferson Fisher joins financial and leadership expert Dave Ramsey to dig into when to stand your ground, how to disagree productively, and why open, honest communication—even when uncomfortable—is transformative. The conversation is packed with practical advice on building trust, voicing disagreement, handling tough conversations, and the mindset shifts required to make arguments work for you rather than tear relationships apart.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Knowing When to Stand Your Ground

• Values vs. Preferences

  • Dave Ramsey [00:33]: Emphasizes the importance of aligning with core, non-negotiable values—things that define your identity.
  • Quote: "If you're surrendering what you believe to be true, you’re being insincere by quitting… But if you’re going to attack my family, then that’s a hill we’ll die on." [02:28]
  • Everyday disputes over trivial matters (e.g., carpet color) are not "hills worth dying on."

• Decision Matrix for Arguments

  • Consider the cost of walking away: “Does it fundamentally change who we say we are?” [04:10]
  • Distinguish between healthy peer debate and sacrificing a core value.

2. What Makes a “Wonderful Argument”

• Focus on the Problem, Not the Person

  • Attack issues, not each other. Personal insults derail healthy discussion.
  • Quote: "Healthy conflict is organizational conflict. An organization that does not have healthy conflict is not being well run." [06:07]

• Trust and Safety

  • Trust encourages open debate and ensures people feel safe to challenge ideas.
  • Quote: "You've got to build this extreme trust in the room… by the quality of humans you have in the room." [07:11]

• Embracing Diverse Perspectives

  • Value the input of people who are better than you in different areas or bring a different lived experience or culture.
  • Quote: “If everybody in the room is as dumb as me, how are we going to get a better solution than I could have got by myself?” [16:55]

• Welcoming Disagreement

  • Ramsey insists everyone in the room must be willing to argue, regardless of personality style.
  • “I respect people more when they argue with me.” [10:02]

3. Healthy Arguments at Work and at Home

• Practical Examples

  • In the Ramsey organization, collaboration and heated debate are part of the creative process.
  • Varied personalities—some more direct, some more process-oriented—all bring value to the table. [11:23]

• Diversity’s Real Value

  • Not "diversity for diversity's sake," but for the expanded perspectives it brings.
  • Quote: “If you grew up in that neighborhood thinking that way...that adds color to it.” [19:14]

4. The Art of Honest but Compassionate Feedback

• Directness Rooted in Care

  • Saying hard things is about serving the other person’s best interest, not just seeking relief for yourself.
  • Quote: "Grace without truth is enabling. Truth without grace is legalism." [29:19]
  • Clarity is kindness: “To be unclear is to be unkind.” [49:21]

• On “Tough Love”

  • True love means not enabling bad behavior—even if it means hurting feelings temporarily.
  • Quote: “I care more about your life than I do about your feelings, than your momentary discomfort.” [65:37]

• The Difference Between Kindness and Niceness

  • Kindness involves truth-telling and real service; niceness can often be cowardly avoidance.
  • Sugarcoating typically serves the teller, not the receiver. [48:54]

5. Building the Courage to Tackle Tough Conversations

• Who Is the Conversation For?

  • Ask: Is this conversation to feel better yourself, or to truly help the other person?
  • Quote: "If you can enter the conversation on how I can serve that person...how can I leave the conversation and them have been helped?" [47:13]

• Managing Delivery

  • Tone, volume, and timing make all the difference; directness is best when it’s paired with demonstrated care.
  • “You can’t correct someone you don’t have a relationship with.” [57:16]

• Practice Makes it Easier

  • The more difficult conversations you have, the easier (and more fruitful) they become—like acclimating to a cold shower. [67:41]
  • “To be better at hard conversations, you need to have a lot of hard conversations.” [72:20]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Value of Disagreement:
  “I love having someone that is just stone cold, lights out way better than me at something.” [15:41]

• On Motivation for Difficult Conversations:
  “I wouldn’t have the conversation if you’re doing it so you feel better...That’s not a healthy conversation.” [46:14]

• On Overcoming Fear of Disappointing Others:
  “They will be disappointed...Is the help more important than the disappointment?” [80:32]

• On Relationship & Correction:
  “You can’t hit somebody in the back of the head unless you have your arm around their shoulder.” [57:56]

• On Emotional Detachment:
  “I don’t care about your feelings. I care about your life. Your feelings are going to be gone by morning.” [62:05]

• On Avoidance:
  “The conversation you’re avoiding is the result that you’re choosing.” [75:45]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• When should you stand your ground? — 00:30–04:10
• What’s a “wonderful argument”? — 05:27–09:02
• Trust, safety, and disagreement at work — 09:18–16:50
• Embracing different talents and diversity — 16:50–20:50
• How Dave listens for what’s behind a caller’s words — 21:32–25:37
• Giving hard feedback and the evolution of tough love — 28:49–35:01
• Kind vs. nice, clarity & charitable motives — 48:54–54:50
• How to be direct but not mean — 56:07–59:30
• Setting up and surviving “cold shower” conversations — 65:20–70:48
• Practice, frequency, and the payoff of hard conversations — 70:48–72:45
• On disappointment & the courage to risk it — 79:40–84:03

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Actionable Takeaways

• Attack problems, not each other.
• Ensure trust and safety before inviting debate; make disagreement a requirement for team members.
• Appreciate and actively seek out perspectives different from your own.
• Say hard things for the benefit of the other person—not to relieve your own anxiety.
• Be clear in your communication—ambiguity is unkind.
• Accept that disappointment and discomfort are part of growth; your job is to be helpful, not just liked.
• Directness, when rooted in genuine care, is not only more effective but builds deeper relationships.
• The more difficult conversations you have, the easier and more productive they become.
• Let go of trying to control the other person’s feelings—focus on your motive, message, and delivery.

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Final Reflection

Dave Ramsey and Jefferson Fisher underscore: If you want meaningful, lasting improvement in your relationships and work, don’t run from healthy arguments. Instead, step in with honesty, courage, and care.
As Ramsey concludes, the best you can hope for is:

“You’re kind of pissing me off right now. But I think you got a point.” [84:01]
That’s real progress.

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For more actionable communication advice, visit jeffersonfisher.com or listen to future episodes every Tuesday.

Transcript

[A]

Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. Now I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills, but it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months or $180 for a 12 month plan. Required $15 per month equivalent taxes and fees. Extra initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes. Me slow when network is busy.

[B]

See terms.

[A]

How do you deal with somebody who think

[B]

like me? Well, I mean, obviously no one's always right, but to the extent you're aligned in my world, to the extent I'm aligned with scripture or I'm aligned with a universal truth of some kind, then that thing is always right. And so in that case, in that thing, I'm always right. But in terms of every situation or every single nuance in your life, no one obviously is. And so anyone that thinks that has psychological problems. And so there's a lack of humility or a lack of grasping. But I am not confused about why I've placed my values where I placed them and that they are the truth. That's different than Dave is always right.

[A]

Yeah. And that's, that's what I'm hearing of this. What I called unshakable a minute ago is you've said, okay, I'm putting this value in a box that it is in a glass box that is not to ever be removed. This is what I know to be true because this is in alignment with my value.

[B]

And I've got social proof, proof text in the marketplace to back it up for sure.

[A]

Is there a cost to being the person that wants to die on every heel?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I think that's the immaturity usually is what that is that lack of experience because you're gonna end up getting the snot beat out of you at some point if you do that. I mean, it's gonna be.

[A]

Life will do it for you.

[B]

Yeah, life's gonna teach you that that's not worth doing. And so how do you do that?

[A]

How do you not be the person? Well, let me ask, how do you know whether that hill is worth dying on? It's worth planting your flag in?

[B]

I think you never know 100%. I don't anyway. Some people do, maybe, but I don't what I'M assessing is that, you know, how far do you want to take something? How far against the wall do you want to push? This thing is, for me, it's based on what's the cost of surrendering that? If you're surrendering that, are you surrendering what you believe to be true? And so you're being insincere by quitting, you know, but if you're going, you know, I don't know if we're right or not, but feels right, you know, that's a different thing than, you know, if you're going to attack my family, then that's a hill we'll die on.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, that's a. That's a non negotiable, you know, attack my faith. I'm not going to back off on that. That's not. That's not a. That's a non negotiable. My freedoms as an American, you steal from me, That's a non negotiable. But arguing over which color of carpet to put in the bedroom or what type of wood floor to put down, this is an argument we might have had at the Ramsey house. That's not a hill worth dying on, Right? Yeah.

[A]

So if you put it like it at home or even at work and in your business, how do you determine whether something is worth sticking up for or saying, actually, you know what? I'm just gonna.

[B]

Well, does it change if we walk away from it? Does it fundamentally change who we say we are? If it does, then it was. We should have had that fight. We should have stayed in the fight. But if it's like, okay, there's three or four possible ways to execute this business model, and we're just arguing about which play to call to put the ball in the end zone, then that's a good argument. That's a healthy business argument among peers, and we have those all the time. And we respect each other, respect each other's intellect, business acumen, integrity, intent, those kinds of things, and our leadership team. And then we just sit there and have this wonderful argument to get to. Okay, are we gonna pass? Are we gonna hand the ball off? Which way are we gonna do this entree, leadership thing? Which way are we gonna do this? You know, this every dollar thing, all the products and things that we're doing in the marketplace, there's all kinds of things there. But if something's coming against us that fundamentally is asking us to surrender a value in order to go that direction, that one, you know, that's what your value system is For. It's what your core values are for. It's what your mission statement's for. Is you have to. It's describing not only who you are, but more importantly, it's describing who you aren't.

[A]

Oh, yeah, I hear you. I want to go because I like talking in the big theories. I also love crunching on, like, the very practical. Here's. If I could. If I could type it up, here's what we would do. You use this phrase, and I love it. How do you have a wonderful argument?

[B]

Well, we're arguing about the problem. It's not personal. If I have to hurl personal insults at you, then that, you know, we've lost the including. And you teach this. I've watched you beautifully.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Matter of fact, I've learned a lot from just watching your reels and stuff. And before we were friends even. And so. But that's the thing. It's okay. How can we navigate this situation in such a way that the people can retain their dignity that are in the argument? But healthy conflict is organizational conflict. An organization that does not have healthy conflict is not being well run. It's a bureaucrat. It's little robots following rules, and it's a cult, and you're not getting your best ideas out.

[A]

It's not healthy.

[B]

Yeah, healthy by definition involves conflict. It just good conflict. And good conflict is not a personal insult. Not questioning someone's personal value as a human being. Like, you're so stupid you can't breathe. Why'd you say that? That's not the kind of argument we have. Right. But this is like, I can say that's the dumbest idea I think I've seen this week. I can do that. And I have said that, and people have said that about my ideas, too. And we laugh and talk about it and, you know, but we trust everyone. You've got to build this extreme trust in the room, and you do that with time and with the quality of humans you have in the room in a leadership. And we do everything by consensus. We do everything by, you know, collaboration I think we call it today more than anything else. And so, you know, John Deloney, our mutual friends on our team. And so it's not unusual for me and Deloney and a couple of other big personalities and the leadership team and some of the content people be in a room and we're talking about, you know, a content piece or something, a talk we're building or a looking at a book someone's working on, and we just wear it out together. And no one walks away going, you know, my feelings are really hurt because it's like everybody understands we love you so much. We want that thing to work, and we're all going to give everything we got. And if you just keep putting the sandpaper to it, it'll polish.

[A]

What I'm hearing is it's a first. If you want to have an argument that improves, whether it's your work or your life, an argument that improves what you've called a wonderful argument. The first thing we want to do is attack the problem, not the person. The second one I'm hearing is you have to create an environment of trust. And that also means an environment of safety, that they can lock horns with you and have it out. And knowing that you want the best for them, you love them, you want the best, your goals are aligned. That's the only way that trust happens, is the goals are aligned. To say, hey, we're creating a sandbox here, and we're going to have different ideas and see different things, but this is in the good of not only each other, but the other. So I feel.

[B]

And when someone's as over the top in your face of personality as I am, I not only have to invite permission for them to lock horns, it's a requirement to be in the room that you have to be willing to lock horns.

[A]

Tell me more about that.

[B]

Well, because you have to push past that fear thing. Because, I mean, I love to argue, and it's a great way to get to a solution.

[A]

You're just sharpening.

[B]

But only if everybody in the room is safe and only if everybody steps in. Because if somebody sits over there and holds their stuff and they don't put it in the middle of the table while everybody else isn't beating stuff in the middle of the table, the best idea still hadn't made it out yet. And if they're holding it because, you know, like, Dave invited me to, like, horns, but did he really mean it? And, you know. No, I more than meant it. I require. I mean, if you can't come to the table and, you know, put everything you got in there, then you don't need to be in that room.

[A]

Do you respect people more when they argue with you?

[B]

Oh, absolutely. It's like I just said, it's a requirement. I mean, it's. And different personality styles are going to come at that. Different. And that's fine. You know, So, I mean, you know my daughter Rachel really well, and she more like in a. You know, the family is. Owns Ramsey, and so the family sitting in the operating board. And, you know, there's 10 of our top senior executives, including Rachel and Daniel and some of the family members. But she's the one. She's more like me than the other three, than the other two kids. And so, you know, she and I have some fabulous arguments, but we do not. I do not use my dad voice on her. And she doesn't roll her eyes like a petulant teenager. She's a grown woman that has very good business acumen and is unbelievably articulate. So she's fabulous to argue with.

[A]

Yeah. And how does that feel?

[B]

Oh, I love it. It means I'm a great dad, that I've built one of those. I mean, as far as I'm concerned. That's just incredible. I mean, she's confident, competent, poised. The other kids are too. They're just different styles. And so they're. You know, my son Daniel's a little bit more like. He's gonna be more like my wife. He's gonna try to make it your idea, make you think it was your idea instead of his idea. And Rachel's like, no, I'm right. You know, but the different personality styles around the room are the same thing. Not just the kids, but not just Gentoo Ramsey. But the. These are 40 year old people, so they're not children.

[A]

Yeah,

[B]

but the people in the room are the same thing. I mean, there's some of them that are real loud, like me, or gregarious or whatever, and then there's some that are very detailed and they want to sit and think they need more time to process before they do it. And that's not emotional fear. It's just their processors instead of reactors, that kind of thing.

[A]

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[B]

Yeah, I get the most value out of these. It sounds like some kind of knockdown hillbilly drag out or something. That's not what I'm talking about. But I get the most value out of one of these healthy discussions, these lively discussions, we can call it. Are they loud sometimes?

[A]

Are they spirited?

[B]

Sometimes it's good when someone believes something deeply enough that they become spirited about it, which makes you. That always gives everybody else their own pause and goes, that can move the room. I can tilt the room. When someone actually that just came out of your belly, not your head. That was good. I like that.

[A]

It came out of your belly. I like that.

[B]

And so that came out of who you are. And again, the longer we've walked together, whoever is in the room has walked together, the higher level this trust is and the higher level the respect is. And one of the things that I've loved about that situation is I've got folks in the room that have these particular. In this case, we're talking about business, but business talents. Like for instance, our cto. I mean, technical guy, right? And so he sees things through project management eyes. He sees things through working with developers for 30 years and software engineers. And that's A different mindset. And so anytime we get into something, that that type of thinking really adds value. This guy's really talented in that. And so it's like, I love having someone that is just stone cold, lights out way better than me at something.

[A]

Somebody wicked smart.

[B]

Yeah, wicked smart. And they. And their discipline, in particular, their thing. And they drop that in there, and they're almost intimidating because they're so stinking good about that thing. And then we land on, you know, the thing we're working on that adds value to. Oh, that's a sweet spot.

[A]

Yeah. Makes me think of the value of having a voice. Like, you need resistance not only in your life, but also in the decisions that you make of. I know what I'm good at and what I'm not great at, and that's what Sierra does for me. Like you. I mean, I have a counterpart that she thinks three times my speed. I mean, before I could get out a word, she's already thought out eight different scenarios of what I'm about to say. I need that kind of voice. And to where if we want to talk about an argument that improves. Of having voices that are different and are more talented than yours.

[B]

That's exactly what I'm saying. Yep. Exactly. How have you seen a better way of phrasing it? Yes.

[A]

How have you seen that work out?

[B]

Oh, fabulously. Because if everybody in the room is as dumb as me, how are we going to get a better solution than I could have got by myself? Right. So it's got to be some people smarter than me. And that's not hard, really, in a lot of areas. I mean, I don't know anything about the technical stuff. There's two guys that work for me that all they do is fix all the computers I break. So it's like, oh, my gosh, I'm zero talent in that area. Details. I'm not a detail person, but reading room, people skills, those kinds of things. Yeah, that. These are things that I've answered questions live on the air, you know, for 40,000 hours or something. You know, a lot. I've got. I've got a lot of. A lot of. Made a lot of mistakes, but I've also had a lot of experience sitting there listening to, oh, they paused too long. That's not the truth.

[A]

No. Yeah. Before we get into. I want to talk specifically in your mindset, in these calls, the show that it's been running how long now?

[B]

30 92. So whatever that comes out. 34 years.

[A]

Long time. I. I want to make sure that we kind of cap this. I love the phrase having a wonderful argument. I hadn't heard that before. And so is the attacking the. The problem of the person being able to create that element of trust and three, appreciating voices that aren't yours, being able to see those as the asset rather than the deterrent. And I think that's a wonderful model.

[B]

And you know, I'll add one to that. That is it's not only someone has business acumen or an experience level in a particular discipline, but sometimes it's someone that came from a completely different culture or mindset or, you know, race. Sometimes they got a completely different view on something that I have zero empathy for because I had no idea it existed.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and it's like, wow, that's a whole new way of.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That's a different door of the barn. We can try and go in that door. I never thought of that. And that adds tremendous value too. So, you know, I think diversity has been destroyed and worn out and all of that kind of thing. But diversity in the room is a good way to get the best ideas. Not for diversity sake and not for woke or not for political correctness or any of that, but just because if you grew up in that neighborhood thinking that way with that group of people, and I grew up in this neighborhood, you know, I'm a hillbilly from the south, that's a redneck. And that doesn't mean I'm dumb, but it just means I don't know about. If you grew up in the ganglands of LA or something. I don't, I don't even. My brain doesn't function that way. Or, you know, or you grew up in Argentina. You know, my brain doesn't think the same way.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so it's, it's that adds some, that adds some color to it.

[A]

Yeah. I think, no pun intended. I think it's, um. I think it speaks to the idea of being willing to listen, to understand that you can have, you can, you can still believe what you know to be right in your heart and also know when to say that you're wrong. You know when to. When to be able to not just say that you're open minded, but practice what it is to be open minded. And that usually is.

[B]

Well, and it's, you know, understand the value of that. It's not just for the sake of virtue signaling or something like that. It's like this is actually valuable.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To my life and to the other lives we're trying to help when you

[A]

go into these calls and you've been running your radio show for forever, I feel like almost as long as a little bit older, more than I've been a lot is. What's your mindset when you first listening to this person? Because you don't see them face to face, you hear them. And that to me is different because you get to kind of paint in your mind what they look like, who they are. You get those very quick snapshots. What, what's the first thing that you, where does your mind first go to when you hear their voice?

[B]

You know, you know, the fact that it is audio only, it's almost as if you've like if you lost your sight, right? You know, you have to. You don't have the disadvantage of judging their shoes, their rings, their makeup, their clothing, their facial expressions, or, you know, you're not misled by or properly can. The disadvantage is you can't. Body language is obviously more powerful than verbal. We all know that. But the, but you don't have the disadvantage of this. So you have. The advantage is you have to hone in on the speech pattern and the. I didn't know I was doing it for a long time. I've thought about it a lot though, since I've been doing it a long time. But for a while I was just listening and answering the question, listening, answering the question. And I went to a Bible study and the guy gave me a Hebrew word which I have now forgotten. Shema or something like that. But it means to get behind the words. What's really going on behind the words. Cause they're giving you, they're presenting almost like their social media version of themselves with these words, which is not a true picture of what's really going on. Because they're trying to give you the best side of their argument, so to speak, or their question present themselves in the best light. But what's really going on in these words? And then when I ask a follow up question is usually where we start the dance and it's like, okay, you know, did they just tell me the truth or the way they phrased it? They're passive aggressive and they're, you know, they're really not, you know, you've told me four times how your sister stole money from you. Okay, I got that. But we seem to be stuck there and we can't even get back to the thing you actually ask about because you're camping over there. And so that's telling me something else is going on here. And so we're just trying to get behind the call, get behind the words. Get behind the words. Get behind the words. Trying to find out what's really happening here. And so, you know, simple example, very simple, is a guy will get on the air, and this happens almost every week, and he starts in great detail, giving me every stinking. I mean, precision detail of his financial situation.

[A]

Surgical.

[B]

So this guy is obviously a detail guy. Right. He's obviously an engineer, accountant. You know, what do you do for a living? I'm an engineer. No kidding. I'm shocked. You know, and so he's obviously that guy. And then he starts telling me how good he is at saving money and how he can't get his wife to go along with his plan, you know, to get. He can't get his wife on the Ramsey plan because he's trying to get me to take up for him and tell him how to fix his wife. And I'm like, your wife's not the problem. You're just so completely anal and such a tight wad that she doesn't have a voice in this discussion. And until you give her a voice in this discussion. And so it ends up being marriage counseling. Right. A little light version of marriage counseling.

[A]

Everything kind of comes back to that.

[B]

Yeah. Until you. But all I'm doing is listening to his speech patterns and his information systems that he's using to throw at me. And you pretty quickly go, this is a good guy. But he sees the world through a very detailed lens, and it's very hard for him to sit down and come to agreement with someone who sees things differently. It's his way or the highway. And if you don't save every dime and if you spent more than 14 cents on something, he's gonna lose his mind. And so his wife actually just. Just wanted to buy food and that, you know.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Come on, dude. And that. We get that call all the time, but all we're doing there is, again, we're listening. The nuance of the language, the pausing, the style, the. The. What kind of a personality is he putting forth? And then we go, hey, dude, you. You know, and sometimes I just say back to him, when you said that out loud, that it sounded crazy to you, as it did to all of us that heard you say it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like no one ever thought about it. But that's just. That is kind of crazy, you know? It's like, okay, there you go. You.

[A]

You're somebody who is certainly known to be somebody who isn't afraid to tell people how you see it, I think especially on some of the calls, I feel like even at the time, I think I was on one time somebody and I was with you there at the desk and somebody called and he said something along the lines of he's like, they had said something kind of like, I don't know, what should I do? And you're like, yeah, that's a terrible idea. And you were just like, I mean, you weren't afraid to punch that. And they didn't. They took it and they were just like you said a minute ago of being able to use some of these words, that they appreciate the directness. And I'm saying this because I think it's a strength. And there are a lot of people out there who really struggle to say the hard thing. Before we get going, I want to take a moment to tell you about AG1. I don't know about you, but summers can be just kind of weird. Some nights everybody is in bed early. Others we say forget it and we're staying up late, we're traveling a lot, or you got crazy jet lag. Like me. Nutrition is where things start to fall apart. I have been taking AG1 now for several months. Brought it with me when we were over in Australia. Why? Because it fills in all the nutritional gaps for me. It helps with my stomach, your gut biome. It helps my brain, gives me energy. It says, hey, I'm doing good things because I'm putting good things in me. And that feels really good. And one thing I really appreciate about AG1 is that all their stuff is clinically research. Check this out. AG1 Next Gen is backed by multiple gold standard clinical trials and is clinically shown to fill common nutrient gaps, improve key nutrient levels within three months, enrich the gut biome and key nutrients in AG1 were shown to be quickly and easily absorbed into the body. For me, it's really just one less thing to worry about the taste. I'm not going to say it tastes like candy, but I will say it tastes. It tastes good enough if I. If I am taking it, it tastes good. Visit drinkag1.com chocolate jefferson to get a free morning person hat. Hey, I need one of these hats and free AG1 flavor sampler in your welcome kit with your first AG1 subscription. That's an $82 value. So that's drinkag1.com Jefferson and now let's keep going. How does someone become a person who isn't afraid to say the hard thing?

[B]

Well, I think if you pulled up tapes from the early days in the show, I would be. You'd find me dancing around a lot more than coming straight at it. And so something you've learned. Yeah, I already knew in my head what I wanted to say, but I was a little bit more sweet tea Southern and just passive aggressive and dance around, pull it out. And sometimes that's not a bad idea. Still, I need to maybe not be quite so forceful today.

[A]

Bless their heart.

[B]

But, yeah, it's just kind of bless your heart. And it can mean a lot of stuff in the south, folks, but the. Grace without truth is enabling. Truth without grace is legalism. And so I'm usually not always. And I make. We make mistakes on there. We do live three hours a day. So, I mean, we make mistakes and I still make mistakes. But the. I misjudge, in other words, the situation. But if I can, through the information they're giving me, figure out that they've been with us a while and then they called. Well, they've heard me have these other interactions hundreds of times, maybe, and then they walked into that exact situation. So that tells everyone there, whether you realize it or not, that they trust me, that if I'm going to tell them something that's hard, that I'm not doing it for entertainment value. I'm doing it to help them, trying to help the person they call. And anybody that's listening has got the same situation. I want to tell them the truth. And so if they call up and go, you know, my girlfriend told me to call and she listens to you all the time. And I don't even. I'm sorry, but I don't even know who you guys are, I'm gonna solve that one. I'm gonna put a lot of padding on that I'm not gonna punch with a brick, you know. But if they call up and they go, you know, Dave, I've been listening to you for seven years. And, you know, my family's been through Financial Peace University, and I'm thinking about leasing a car. And I'm like, what are you. That's so against everything you just said. Those two things don't even go in the same sentence. Yeah, how could you possibly ask that dumb a question, you know? And it's like. And they know that then. I mean, intellectually, but they still. I guess they just want to hear somebody else say it out loud. So there it is. They already know that truth, and I'm just putting it back on them. You know, there's some little voice in their head that's going to sound A lot like mine. And then when I say it out loud, they go, yeah, no, but I just had to ask. I had to get it out of my system because I'm tempted, and that helped me wash it away. But I'm like, I'm aghast that you call me and you tell me all this stuff, and then you go do that, or we're working your system. And then they start telling us what they're doing, and they're going, you're not working. Yeah, you're working your system. And, you know, so we've changed then. But again, we'll soft pedal it there or put a little softness to it to the extent we need to persuade rather than go straight at it. Then the second thing that goes with that is, you said, how do you get over the fear? You need to decide what's helpful. Because your show, my show, the thing, the content pieces we put out are not for entertainment value.

[A]

Right.

[B]

The compelling parts of them is that they're helpful, that it helps me with my life. I'm better if I have these tools in my belt because I follow Jefferson. I'm better if I have these tools in the belt because we're doing the Ramsey stuff. And so to not give them clarity on that piece of information is cowardice. It's not helpful to them. And my reason for sitting in that seat, I don't need money. My reason for sitting in that seat is to be helpful. That's where I get my income from, is being helpful. So I cannot. And the other thing you have to remember is there's a billion downloads. So there's. On any given time that that microphone's on, there's 40 or 50 million people listening. And so it's not the caller that's the problem. It's that I gave all of them permission. Also, if I handle this wrong and if I don't tell the truth. So that's tremendous cowardice at that point. And so it's like my duty then to be helpful, which means I have to tell the truth, and I have to do it in such a way. The third piece that goes with it is we will. And all the Ramsey personalities have been taught this. And if you listen carefully, you'll hear them do it because I taught them to. I learned it is I will come at someone about three times, and the third time they argue with me. Each time I turn up the heat and the bluntness and the. Even the volume sometimes of the voice. First time is, okay, I'm gonna try to persuade you. And Talk you through this, give you all the reasons and so forth. The second time I'm gonna go, look, this is what we said, and I'm gonna lean in a little bit harder. The third time, I'm gonna pound it and drop the call because I'm not arguing with you. If I wanted to argue with you, I'd do a different show. That's not the show I'm doing. You called and ask us how to help be helpful. We told you how to be helpful, and that's what we think. If you want to do something else, that's okay. It's your life. You can do something else. But this is what we said, and we're not really going to change that by having this long discussion with you unless you give us a new piece of information or something in the call. But if you come in and we have the information set, we have the data set to make the make a judgment call on it, then after that, it's just, you're asking me to put a. My Dave Ramsey certification on your stupidity, and I'm not doing that.

[A]

Yeah, you have good phrases. You think there's more to that. When somebody is calling, knowing full well what you're going to say, they just, they need to be told it by somebody, even though they, they're fully aware. Is there something to that where somebody has to be told what they already know to be true?

[B]

There's so few places in our life, in today's society that we can actually have faith in the person's character that we're interacting with. In the, quote, old days, you could look and say, that person is a person of character, that person. And you could talk to your pastor, you could talk to whatever, you could talk to your boss, boss, you could talk to whoever. And your dad and mom were somewhat functional, you know, those kinds of things. In today's world, more people grew up without a dad in the household than grew up with a dad. And so they've never had anyone in a lot of cases that they could ask. Nobody taught them about buying a car, Nobody taught them about whatever. And so single parent household, and that's not to shame the person that did raise them. Single moms are warriors, they're heroes. But the point is, there's just a vacuum in our culture today of who you can trust. And the more time you spend on millennials and Gen Zs, the more time they spend with screens, the more they realize how untrustworthy most of these sources are, because they're not. And they go, I can't trust that. I can't trust that. These are shallow. This is not, you know, these are just influencers. They're not people of substance or character. And so who's the person that's got some depth spiritually, got some depth emotionally, psychologically, got some experience? Who's the. You know, they didn't sit at their grandpa's feet growing up because grandpa didn't live next door.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so they didn't. They never learned how to whittle and they never learned how to talk to grandpa because grandpa would tell you stuff. I mean, he'd get on. If you had a grandpa like that. I had one like that. He'd get it. He'd get up in your business. You know, mine did. I drove up in a Jaguar one time of mine and he was, you know, a product of the Great Depression. And he didn't say a lot. He's kind of a quiet guy. And he said, what is that? And I was making all this money in the real estate business right before I went broke losing everything because of debt. And he said, what's that? I said, that's a Jaguar, Grandpa. And he goes, really? That's a good looking car. He goes, well, what'd you pay for that? And I said, told him. And I was like, I don't remember at the time, like 30 grand or something back then, which would be 130 now or 200. But he said, what's that thing going to be worth in 10 years? And I said, well, it's going to go down value. And I said, but it's a good investment. He goes, honey, my investments go up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They didn't have that guy.

[A]

That's awesome.

[B]

If they didn't have that guy. A lot of times, whether I'm. I'm not grandpa.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But. But I'm feeling I'm the guy that they trust that they can bounce it off of or the Ramsey personality. The Ramsey show is the place you can trust. It's a trust brand.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And we've earned that trust by being consistent. We haven't changed.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And by proving that one of the consistency is we prove we actually love you and we love you enough to tell you the truth.

[A]

I think that hits the heart of it right there. Of. Do you love this person enough to tell them the truth? Because that. To do the opposite would suggest you don't love them.

[B]

And I've picked up one. I've stolen one from Deloney that is in that same thing. He asked permission.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Can I tell you something? Hard.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Can I. Will you give me permission to love you tough right now, right. And just get up on you. And 100% of the time they say, yeah, because they always. They want to know, right? They're curious. Even if they're not going to do it, you know, they still want to hear what he's going to say.

[A]

Well, yeah, when you, when you don't catch him off guard and they know it's for their. In their interest, I think they're willing to do it and go into that with you and more. It'd be a collaborative team thing. I do think there is something too, though, people want to be told, you know, I. It's something I wrestle with this idea of, you know, the, the things I talk about. Nothing new. I'm not coming up with some new things theory, right. And so I'm not coming up with my name. Is it added to some new mathematical theorem out there? I'm just telling them things maybe in a way they haven't heard or maybe they just need to hear it. And that does something to. To people. And I feel like you're certainly a living example of that with this radio show is they know that they need to not have debt. They know that they need to be having better habits. They just feel better when you tell them to. What do you think that is?

[B]

I think the truth, your content and ours, is that the heart, even if your heart is. Even if you've been abused and even if you're struggling with finding your way to some kind of psychological, spiritual normalcy, even in those damaged situations, but for sure, people that are in a more normal bell curve, the heart recognizes truth when it hears it. There's a tuning fork that it's like, oh, that's on tune. That's the right note. I feel it. The heart recognizes that. And so truth does that. It rings a bell for you. And so when we say something like that, even if they've never heard it before, yeah, I think that's true. That light bulb comes on and that's with what you're teaching them. They're like, yeah, maybe I don't need to come at that verbally this way. Maybe I need to just take a half step back and breathe and let's do. You know, you go, that's just so wise. And you go, huh? That's wisdom. And your heart recognizes truth, recognizes wisdom, and it gravitates towards that. And then the more times someone like you or our team does that, the more trustworthy you become to where even if you come at them with something later, after you've built a rapport with them, even though you never met them, but you built a rapport with them over the platform. The more you. Then when you come at them as something, even if it doesn't ring the bell enough other things have that they will still listen to it. They'll still go, yeah. All the other stuff he told me was right. So I gotta. I gotta really consider this one, you know. And so the example of that is I don't get into politics very often, but I get into a little bit here and there, particularly when it's around taxes and stuff or around the free enterprise system or those kinds of things. Freedom. But I have a. I'm a politically conservative. That's no secret. Everybody knows that. But I have a lot of listeners that are extremely left side of the political spectrum and they know where I am and, and on that. But we're not having this conversation about that. So it's. It doesn't really enter into it. But I often get comments or emails come in over the years ago. You know, I really disagree with you on everything. But when you start talking about that, that's the truth. So even though there's this barrier, this thing, this divisive thing, political differences, we weren't discussing that. We're discussing whether or not to, you know, finance a car or, you know, whether or not to be in agreement with your spouse on money. That's apolitical. It's not. Doesn't ran into it. So they, they can. They still listen to the show. Yeah, but they don't listen to a political show. That's opposite.

[A]

I like to tune fork. I like that tuning fork idea.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Of. Because we are. We're all listening. We're trying to tune into the same frequency everybody else. And so whether it's scrolling, whether it's listening to a show, we're waiting for that moment that goes. I hear that. You know, and I think. I think that's what you do. Before we keep going, I want to take a moment to tell you about Monarch Money. We are now in the summer months and that means you need to be spending time, not worried, all about the budget and finances and where everything's going and all the flow of everything. You need to be focused on family, summer getting sunshine. And Monarch is here to make that happen. What I like about Monarch is that you can see everything in one dashboard, right on your laptop or your phone. And so it takes all of your accounts and is able to help with budgeting. Help know where everything is coming in and how everything is coming out. And you can see it all at one glance, which is really nice. And what it's like is almost having. Honestly, it's like having a financial advisor right there in your pocket. Because with AI now they have an AI agent that is able to answer questions specifically about your finances and where you can might cut stuff and how you can create a budget. And these are just tools that, you know, we didn't learn in school. And so Monarch is a great way of giving you financial peace, which is something I think we can all need a little bit more this summer. So. So if you're like me and want to be focused on getting some sunshine and working on that tan rather than being cooped up working on finances, you can go to monarch.com, use the code Jefferson for half off. That's 50% off your year subscription. That's only $50, I think. In fact, half off your first subscription. Use code [e-mail] and now let's keep going. I want to speak right now for the person who. There is somebody who needs to have a very difficult conversation that they've been avoiding tomorrow. How do they work up the courage to say the thing that needs to be said?

[B]

Well, the first thing is, I wouldn't have the conversation if you're doing it so you feel better.

[A]

I like that.

[B]

Because you're gonna be disappointed.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's not gonna work because you're not gonna feel better. You know, if your mom's being difficult and you think you're gonna explain to your mom to not be difficult anymore, and you think you're gonna leave that conversation and your mom's not gonna be that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You're gonna be disappointed.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So if you think you're gonna go in and correct someone and them gonna accept it or set a boundary, and they are boundaryless people, and they're suddenly gonna love that because you had one tough conversation, but you're gonna feel better. I got it off my chest is what people say. Right. That's not a healthy conversation. You're doing that for selfish reasons.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So if you can enter the conversation on how I can serve that person on the other side, how can I serve them? How can I leave the conversation and them have been helped.

[A]

I like that a lot.

[B]

Then your job is to build a persuasive case. Your job is to form your words in such a way that they're helpful, not just you feel better because you puked on them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and I've done both in my personal life or in a business setting or whatever where I'm just going to throw up on you, but I'll feel better. And then the person was not helped. So why did I do. I mean, nothing changed.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, the guy's a crook. He's still a crook. When I finish talking to him, he's still a crook. Why am I, why am I telling him he's a crook? It's, it's, it's of no value. No value. And you ruminate about. People ruminate about these conversations in their head over and over and over and over on the walking trail. I've done it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm going to say this. I'm going to say this. And then I go, why am I. What's the purpose of this conversation? Is it for me? Is it for them?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And if I get my purpose right, then, you know what I end up doing? I end up not having some of the conversations.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Because it's for me and it's not going to end up. The actual practical outcome is not going to be valuable.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so I find that with.

[A]

Sometimes people go, I just have to. Look, I just have to say my first thought is, no, you don't. You don't have to say anything.

[B]

Exactly. It's free.

[A]

It's not for the other person. And I find that that often is. You know, here's my thoughts, and I'm curious on your thoughts on this idea of like sugar coating. Right. Sugar coating is not for. To make them feel better. It's to make you feel better. What's your policy on that?

[B]

In the, you know, we're. I always say we're from the south with sweet tea. Right. And so we're required to be nice. And it took me a long time, especially as a leader, hiring and leading people to realize that being nice and not telling the truth because you're quote, unquote, being nice, air quotes is not nice.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so we've got a phrase around Ramsey that we use in our leadership team all the time in entree. Leadership I talk about all the time is to be unclear is to be unkind. And I had to teach myself that because I was like, well, and sugar, sweet tea and pecan pie. And here we go. And then we leave the meeting and no one knows what happened because no one said anything. There was a lot of words, but no one said anything of substance. Nothing changed from the meeting. Why did we do this? It's like, well, I don't. And then I would become like, for instance, someone's not doing their job well. Well, maybe they don't know it right. You know, don't do that that way. Here's the way we do it. Do it this way. That's clarity. But like, well, I wish he'd, you know, then I get, as a leader, young leader, I would get progressively increasingly frustrated with the person and they don't even know they're doing anything wrong. Cause I didn't have the backbone to tell the truth in the name of being nice. I was like, well, they'll figure it out. No, they won't. You gotta help them. You gotta train them. You gotta say, honey, don't do it that way. We do it this way. I've done this for 25 years. You're 25 years old. This is how you do it. It's like, there's one way to do this. And at Ramsey, we do it this way. And if you don't tell them, then you lose the right to be frustrated.

[A]

You see a difference between being kind and being nice?

[B]

Yeah. Oh, definitely. Kind tells the truth. To be unclear is to be unkind. So clarity requires. Kindness requires clarity. And that's a form of truth.

[A]

So for the person who goes, dave, I gotta have this. You understand. I have this conversation that I know I gotta have with my brother in law or at work or whatever, what I'm hearing you say, what they can take from this is one, be rigorously honest about your motive. Is it for you to feel better or is it to serve them?

[B]

Let me ask you something. Because with what you teach, does that ring true? With what you teach, does that not change the verbiage automatically?

[A]

Yeah, it immediately puts it in. Instead of trying to serve my own interests, which means words will reflect that, I think. Yeah. Oh, and it will. You know, what if what they talk about, what's that quote, I think it's Abraham Lincoln of, if you want to find the bad in someone, you'll surely find it, you know, and if I want to find a flaw in your way of thinking, I can find that too. So if I go exactly what you brought up of, how can I be of service to this conversation? So that changes immediately the mindset of, oh, it's almost like a release of a pressure valve. I don't have to prove that I'm right. Instead I can say, how can I serve this moment? Meaning how can I share perspectives rather than trying to prove my point? How can I be more interested in understanding them rather than trying to make them understand how wrong they are, you know, to try and push and push. And usually it's that whole mentality of it's not the closed fist that's going to get the result. It's usually the open hand of how can you be able to make space for both sides in the conversation? So what I'm hearing is we first have to ask the question, is it for you or is it for the other person? If it is for the other person, meaning something collaborative, you next want to think about the goal. I mean, what's. What's the intended goal of why are you. Why are you wanting to tell them this? And then three, what I like is what's the kind thing? Because the whole that's not nice isn't going to work. I absolutely agree with you of the kinder thing is usually the thing you don't regret later. It will, I think it will always be the harder thing.

[B]

If you get angry in the delivery, that's not kind. You say the same thing the wrong way. Right. Or if your volume is wrong, or sometimes even your pacing, your timing is wrong, all of those things indicate it's about you.

[A]

Do you find that you are more effective when you are the Dave that's loud and animated and almost to the point of, let's just say, anger? Or do you find that you're effective when you can slow it down and have a little bit more of the not softness? Because I think you can be kind and still be incredibly firm.

[B]

But it's a soft voice. Yes, maybe. Well, the data tells us on our show based on viewership of certain clips or certain particular episodes or whatever of Dave, I'll just use myself only is that if I'm loud and animated and passionate at an individual, I get real negative feedback. They want me to tell them the truth. The viewer does.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. But it feels mean to them if I'm doing all that. And so when I'm individual to individual, if I'm sitting on the couch with having a private conversation with someone, that's going to sound completely different than a rant about a concept, right? That's just stupid. Angry Dave comes out and I can do all. I can, go crazy about that. And those things go through the roof. You know, you've lost your mind, you know, all that stuff, right? And those things go, but. But what I'm doing there is passionately. That's passion, telling the truth. It's the same exact piece of information, but it's not delivered directly at an individual. It's delivered at a problem Or a societal thing or a cultural thing. This is just out of control, you guys. Come on. You know, and it's like. And everybody's like. Cause nobody thinks that's them, then.

[A]

Yeah, it's always.

[B]

That's not right on their nose. It's not right in their face. And so. But if you're nose to nose with somebody, there's no option. It's, you know, and now it's just yelling at somebody.

[A]

All right?

[B]

And that. That doesn't. That doesn't work. And if you think about it for 30 seconds, it doesn't. Doesn't work. I mean, no kidding. Hello?

[A]

Yeah. How can you be direct with somebody and not be mean or rude?

[B]

Again, I. Tone matters.

[A]

Volume.

[B]

Volume matters. Those things matter in the delivery of that. Because that's how it's interpreted. Establishing a rapport ahead of time, that the reason we're here is to be helpful. And if at any point this becomes harmful instead of helpful, then this conflict is no longer valuable. You might not say it that way, but I mean, we're establishing that there's that level of trust in the relationship. And so, you know, back in the, whatever, the 90s, there was the Promise Keepers movement, right? And accountability men being accountable for their behavior to other men. And men's groups, all this stuff popped up. Accountability, accountability, accountability. And everybody in churches started forming accountability groups with people they'd never met before. That just does not work because of abject failure, because you're not accountable to someone you don't have a relationship with. And so you can't correct someone you're not. You don't have a relationship with. Yeah. And so we were leading Financial Peace university groups. Over 10 million people now have gone through those groups. So we had the small group discussion after the lesson for accountability and for clarification of the information. Right. And the small group leader's job was to hold people accountable, getting on a budget, following the steps, and to the extent they're not doing that, point it out to them in the small group discussion. And. But in. But you're in. And you're in that class for nine weeks. So once a week. So that. That accountability thing sounds completely different in week five than it did in week one. Because, you know, what we would teach them is you can't hit somebody in the back of the head unless you have your arm around the shoulder.

[A]

So the person who says, I'm having a really hard time because there are people who really struggle with being direct, what I hear you telling them is not only do we need to bring down our volume. People respond to, more often than not that softer but firm energy. And also is the reasoning, which resonates with me because I like to tell people a very easy intro into saying something direct is, I'm telling you this because most of the time, it's like opening up the newspaper. And their point is, you still have to go to see page C8, you know, to get to the point. But if I start with, I'm telling you this because I care about you. I'm telling you this because I know you can handle it. I'm telling you this because we're going to grow stronger from it. It. And I'm going to be here with you people. It helps get right to the. The thing. Get to the point rather than the. Okay, do you remember when the other day we were, you know, talking about this and people go, I don't.

[B]

Who won the Super Bowl?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, God, yeah. Look at this weather. This weather. And all that is. Is we're not clear and. And we're afraid still. You're exactly right.

[A]

That's fear.

[B]

Yeah. And the fear is overcome by love. And so you have to set yourself sitting down in the meeting. Do I love this person enough to have this conversation? Otherwise you're having it for yourself.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Again, back to motive. Right. And so I have. And so now what does involve. What does love involve here? Okay, I have to. Son, you're six years old. You have to brush your teeth. There's several reasons. One is your breast stinks. Two is you're gonna need the teeth later. So I'm your dad, and I'm requiring that you're gonna brush your teeth. Then this is the truth. And this is. I don't have to be mean. I'll yell at you. Get upstairs and rest your teeth.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Yeah. It's not that, but it's just. And it isn't for me. I don't need those teeth. He does. So it's like, why are we having this conversation? It's for his good. And so the funny one I get in this regard is that's kind of the polar opposite of the question you're asking is people will say, you know, Ramsey, you're just all about tough love. And I'm like, no, that's just love. It's not like there's a tough love and a not tough love. What does not tough love do?

[A]

Right.

[B]

Not tell the truth, not be helpful.

[A]

Right.

[B]

What does not tough love look like? Well, it's not tough love, but people. Because it's especially in the south, you know, we're like, you know, anything where you tell something very directly, even if you said first that, you know, we're going to grow because of this and, you know, I care about you and, you know, the reason we're having this conversation is for you and for you. I want you to win. And for you to win, you need this piece of information.

[A]

There's a mindset I want to tap into because I think what you do is special. When you're about to say the thing, that's the difficult thing, the hard thing, where does your mind go in terms of how you're going to handle their feelings? I can tell you, my dad would tell me when I would say, they're going to be disappointed if I say that. He said, yeah, they will be. They get to choose what to do with that after. And so he would always like, you can't carry other people's feelings for them.

[B]

I was going to be a little bit more crass.

[A]

I would love to hear it. Let's hear it.

[B]

I don't care. Yeah, about your feelings. I care about your life. Your feelings are going to be gone by morning. Whoopee. About feelings. Everybody's all worried about their feelings. You hurt your feelings. Good. They probably need their feelings hurt. They're really doing cocaine. They need to stop.

[A]

Yeah, they need to do it.

[B]

I really want to hurt your feelings. That's my goal here. I really want you to be really pissed off by the time we finish this conversation. This is my goal. Because that's when you're going to quit, put down the cocaine. You know what I mean? I'm not concerned about your feelings. And so that's the crass way of looking at it. But again, are you there in the conversation to make them like you, which is their feelings, or are you there to help them?

[A]

That goes back to the subject.

[B]

It goes all the way back to again. I just keep. We keep looping back. But I mean, for me, I have to do that. I have to go, you know, this guy's not going to like this. And this. He's probably going to. Based on the conversation we've had for the last four minutes on the air. When I do this, he may even hang up the phone, and sometimes they do, you know, and. Which makes great radio, but it's not a great conversation. But everyone out there listening goes, it's exactly what the guy needed. The listeners all nodding in their car. They're going, yeah, somebody actually said out loud that that is moronic. You know, someone said that to the guy who's being moronic, you know, you are destroying your life with this. You've got to stop it, man. This is crazy. I mean, everyone that's listening to this right now is looking at you going, I mean, seriously, man, the way you're even forming yourself, I mean, I'll do this on the air with them, but it's all a pleading with them to hear it for their change. And it's not because I need the entertainment value of it. And it's not because I got in a reality TV thing for about 30 seconds. Thank God it didn't work. But they, the producers were all about making clowns out of the person I was there to help. And so I was supposed to be the shiny expert is the way they were performing it. And it was the early days of reality tv. And so.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But the, the wilder and dumber and crazier the person I was helping could look, the more they thought the TV was good, you know? And I finally was like, guys, when this comes out, those people are going to be destroyed.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And so your only purpose here is to mess them up for entertainment value. I'm out.

[A]

I want to.

[B]

It's not fun for me.

[A]

No, I think you're right. And that you. Is it, is it, is it at the expense of something greater? I want to use a scalpel here for a second because I hear you on the. I don't care about your feelings. I know also that's a, that's a more one way on the spectrum way to even say it. So I know deep down you do care. You have to care at some extent about their feelings. So I want to, I want to better define that sentence of now.

[B]

That's pretty blunt. Yeah, well, no, it's pretty. It's not a scalpel, but it's a. It's a. I mean, that's a hammer.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, for sure. You took a sledgehammer and. But I think that's. There are some people who appreciate I'm

[B]

less concerned about your feelings than I am your quality of life. After we have this conversation.

[A]

Here we go. It is that you don't care is that right now I'm having to care more about your life than I am about the current feeling in a culture

[B]

that is more worried about your feelings than telling you the truth. So I'm going to be different.

[A]

Right. Because if I, if I truly, if I went to the other end of the spectrum, said I only care about your feelings, most likely I would Never say the thing. That's where we get caught up in the.

[B]

That's enabling.

[A]

It's enabling. Yeah, that's exactly right. It enables that kind of behavior if you're not the grindstone on somebody else and when it's from a right place. So I hear you on the. To the extent of I care more about your life and I care more about you right now than I do

[B]

about your feelings, than your momentary discomfort.

[A]

That's a great way of putting it. I think that puts. It makes a condition on the timing of knowing that there is going to be something. I wanted to share something with you because I want to get. It's like my time to get your opinion on something. I like to talk about this method that I have, I call them cold shower conversations. And this is when I need to have something like a heart to heart moment. And I know it's going to be. It's not going to feel good. I know I'm not going to feel good and they're not going to feel good. It's like a cold plunge or that cold shower, I mean we're going to be arching our back because it's not going to be fun. But after a while you get used to the temperature and you start to. Your nervous system starts to catch up and start to regulate itself. And so sometimes I'll say I need to have a cold shower conversation with you which is informing them of it's not gonna be comfortable for a little bit, but I'm gonna be in it with you and we're gonna get through it. Do you find that that's. Is that something that is Dave approved?

[B]

Absolutely. Yeah. Because what happens is your brain trains yourself. The more of those you have, the

[A]

more of them you'll have and the easier it is to get them.

[B]

You didn't die from it, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You thought you were going to die. There's a part of your lizard brain that says you're going to die from this. You're not going to die. And actually good things happen versus if you don't deal with it right, bad things happen. And so that, you know, it's. It builds your faith, you know. And so, you know, I got a cold plunge and decided I was going to do all this stuff because all you cool people are doing it. And so I'm not one of those cool people. It's cold, man. And so yeah, I'm at 4 minutes at 48 and my son in law's laughing. He says I'm a wuss at that.

[A]

But hey, yeah, my respect.

[B]

Anyway, the. But the first time I did it, I thought I was going to die. That's funny.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Four minutes at 48. And now I'm like, whatever. You know, it. Just because your brain says you're not, you didn't die. And guess what? You do get all the dopamine hits and all the stuff from it, all the benefits of it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And you come out feeling better. And cold shower moment, you come out awake, awakens you up and you're stronger. The same thing's too. Yeah, the same thing's true when you have these conversations. So when we decided we were actually going to start having a conversation and adjusting behavior with a team member that was offline, they were out of line in some way, either the execution of their job or their behaviors or their, I don't know, whatever it is that I need to help them get better at in order for them to stay. You know, it was like I had to kind of work up to it, and I was like, I had to get myself ready and. Yes. All this stuff and. But now that I've had 80,000 of those conversations and 30 years of leading people, I just like getting in the cold plunge in the morning. It's just not a big thing. Yeah. But because I see the benefit, I didn't die from it. And the benefits far outweigh the discomfort. And so I just keep doing it more and more and more and more. And now, again, you have to abide by the rules. And so in those situations, one of the rules is I'm doing it for them, not for me. It ends up being the Bifrot product is for me because the work gets done and I'm paying them. So that's good. The goal is reached, but the goal is reached. But I'm doing it for them, not for me. In other words, I'm not in here. I don't want to feel better because of the conversation. That's a bully. In that case, when you're the leader having an uncomfortable conversation, we call them. And so I like that, though. The second thing is you start to see the fruit that this builds out, and you just go, I need to do that more often. And when I didn't do it, everybody lost. And so really, it becomes my only option to have an uncomfortable conversation. And of course, in those cases, the other rule is, not only is it not for me, but it has to be in private. We're not going to call you out in front of your peers or something like that on something that you're being that a corrective thing is being done. Yeah.

[A]

Unless they're calling into your show.

[B]

Yeah. No, I mean that. Well, they. That's the format.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

But I'm saying if I've got a team member working for me, I don't have, you know, an uncomfortable conversation. And I think your thing where you said, let's set the table as we enter this, while we're doing this and we do one of the things one of our guys teaches, and I picked it up from him, is, okay, so, and so this is going to be an uncomfortable conversation. No one's getting fired today. But we have some things we need to deal with. And so here's what's going on and here's how we need to see that corrected. And I'm on your side of the table. We're going to walk together on this. I'm not across the table from you. I'm beside you. And if we can walk together and get this corrected, I get to stay on your side of the table.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And be your cheerleader. If you don't correct it, I'm going to end up on the other side of the table or have another one of these conversations and it's going to get more uncomfortable.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so. And that's kind of the format he uses. And it's a great format.

[A]

Well, I like that. It's. It's immediately eliminating the worst case possible scenario for the other person. The worst case scenario.

[B]

Not sitting down here to fire you.

[A]

Yeah. Which is. Eliminates that anxiety. And when I hear you saying, I'm

[B]

not asking for a divorce.

[A]

Right. Yeah. You're having to.

[B]

To eliminate upset about this. Exactly.

[A]

What I hear you saying is to be better at harder conversations, you have to have a lot of harder conversations

[B]

and end up seeing the benefit of them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's not like they get easier because you become calloused. They get easier because they work.

[A]

Yeah. Well, you get to, like you said, use the word fruits of them. To be better at hard conversations, you need to have a lot of hard conversations. And the first one is going to be hard. It's meant to be difficult because there's only. That's the only way through to reach the truth and the. The bond and the strength and the everything else.

[B]

And it's a different kind of thing. But I remember the first time a thousand years ago that I had to fire somebody.

[A]

I mean, how did you feel?

[B]

I was sick.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All I knew Monday morning, this guy's gone. Right. And all weekend, I mean, my digestive system. I mean, I was up half the night sick because I didn't want to hurt them. But there was no way the decision had been made. I just had to pull the. I had to do it. And I walk in, I sat down with the guy, and I said, look, the decision's been made. Today's your last day at Ramsey. And he's like, I told my wife this weekend that probably Monday was my last day because you've been talking to me about this. And I figured that that's where we were. And he goes, I want to thank you for how you handle it. I'm like, oh, my God. Where were you all weekend while I was throwing up? You know? Yeah, but that was the first one. And. And. And now I don't. In a situation. I don't personally deal with that anymore. At Ramsey. Our organization's too big for that. But the. But today, if I'm involved in something like that, I don't spend the weekend upset because I know that they're not going to die. As a matter of fact, they really suck at this job, which means they probably got something else for them to do that they can actually be prosperous at. And so this could be a learning experience. And so we fired people because they had an alcohol problem, and they went naa. And got help. And the firing was the bottom that allowed them to change their life. And so, you know, a lot of times when, you know, we release someone, it's as if they've been a captive. And so good things have happened. So it's a little different. But I've now had the experience of people leaving our organization against their will over the years and going on to do much better somewhere else. So we did them, not metaphorically, literally, a favor. And so it makes it easier. That's the parallel. The difficult conversation is you have this conversation, and at least you know you love them. Well, even if they don't change, you did all you could do. Yeah, and I can't do anything else. And I'm not gonna hound them about it. I'm not gonna wear them out in a interpersonal thing on a team member. I'm gonna. They have to. You wanna change option, you're gonna change, but in a personal thing, you know, your mom's misbehaving, she's probably not gonna change. And, you know, but at least you loved her enough to tell her the truth. And then the next time it comes up, we can have a reasonable boundary. Remember, we talked about this, Mom. This is where we are. And you Know, you don't have to be. You don't have to revisit it every time. But you can have these conversations because you know you love them well and you many times get to see them do better and prosper because of the conversation, which will encourage the cold showers.

[A]

I agree. There's a phrase that I like to use. The conversation you're avoiding is the result that you're choosing.

[B]

Yeah. And get what you tolerate.

[A]

Exactly. And if you, however you're feeling by avoiding that conversation, that is, then you're making that you're making that choice. I.

[B]

And let me ask you this. Do you think that people experience. I just occurred to me when you said this, said that, because it's a beautiful insight that when you're carrying the entire weight and they don't even know it's there, that it's probably 10x as bad as if you just sat down and then it's gone.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It just evaporates. Yeah. But it's 10x worse. And the longer you carry it, the heavier it gets.

[A]

Yeah. The more you become separate from yourself.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When it be, it's like, how do I. The way I see it is how do I shorten if I know? Without a doubt. Like, how do I know to let something go or keep it or address it? It's. Am I thinking about it the next day? If I'm thinking about the next day, that tells me, okay, I may not. My hands might be cool right now and open, but inside I'm still grabbing onto it. So I got to find a way to not do that. So how do I shorten the amount of time that I'm sharing it? Because the longer I hold it, the more heavier it gets and the more hidden resentment I have and the less I feel like they know me. And then what does that do? That. That is meaning there is now a space between us that you didn't put there. I put there. And now there is this inability for me to be authentic. And now there's an inability for me to be vulnerable because I am much more concerned about that weight. And yeah, I think.

[B]

And when you 10x20x when you stack those up in an individual, the individual has tremendous anxiety. It has not. They're not offloading this stuff.

[A]

Right.

[B]

There's the. Their peace. The level of peace goes down. If it stacks up too high, it becomes just psychological disorder. Eventually, without a doubt. They're never offloading. They're never cleaning that. They're never cleaning the table. Kitchen table just keeps getting more dirty dishes on it.

[A]

Yeah. It's like. It's as if you. I haven't thought about this way before. You know, when you skip the gym once, you realize all of a sudden it's three months before you go again. Or maybe you. You forget to clean out, delete that, just even archive that one email, and all of a sudden it's three weeks later and you have 300 emails that you haven't even addressed. If it doesn't become part of the rhythm, the rhythm of your life, of saying, I'm feeling this, therefore, with that, automatically, my process is, I'm now saying it. If it serves. If the framework is right, that it serves you more than it serves me, and all that's there. And that's a beautiful insight. Thank you for calling that out. I want to wrap us up by this idea of there's somebody who's afraid to say something, and you hit on this a minute ago. I want to look at it a different way. There's somebody who is afraid to say something because they are deeply concerned that they're going to disappoint the other person, and they are not sure how in the world they can face that kind of disappointment. What kind of message of hope? First, I want to know, how do you. How do you get over that feeling? That fear may ask it differently. How do you get over the fear of disappointing someone? And second of all, what's the message of hope that you have for them?

[B]

Well, I don't know if you ever get over that fear. It's limited. The more that you value the help that the person receives, is the help more important than the disappointment is the. You know, again, we can use an extreme example. You're, you know, your high school buddy, your friend for 20 years of doing cocaine. So, you know, how concerned am I about him being disappointed in me for saying, dude, you killing yourself, you've lost all your relationships, you lost your job, you lost your wife, you're doing cocaine, You've got to get some help. And when you get to. Sometimes if I extrapolate something out to an extreme like that, that's an extreme situation.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Then it tells me I'm not really concerned about a disappointment. My fear of him being disappointed, I'm pretty much guaranteed he's going to be disappointed.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No one likes to be confronted in their drug use. I've never met anybody, though. I thought that. Thought that was wonderful. Oh, thank you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I've never heard of that happening. You know, there's an intervention and everybody and the druggie Just loved it. Never, never heard of that happening, you know, so 100% chance they're going to be disappointed. So. But I'm much more concerned about them and their life and their than I am their disappointment. So I think first is I got to accept that there's disappointment. And number one is it's going to happen. They will be disappointed. They will be disappointed.

[A]

There's no gal.

[B]

How much do I care, you know, versus they're doing cocaine or. Versus the situation I'm addressing. Right. And so the situation I'm addressing has to trump the disappointment and minimize my concern about it. And that's helpful. The other thing is, if you haven't had a lot of these cold showers, then you still live with this mythology in your head. I did in the early days that somebody was gonna finally just say thank you and they weren't gonna be disappointed. Just go ahead and get rid of that one. It's not gonna happen. It's gonna happen. They're not gonna understand, they're not gonna be self aware, they're not gonna get it. You're gonna have to plow through some messiness. They're gonna be disappointed, their feelings are gonna be hurt, they're gonna be angry, they're gonna be sad, they're gonna lose their mind. You know, it's all gonn. Just go ahead and expect all of that. And the secret to happiness is low expectations. Right. So it's back to the golf motto. Okay? That's a given. What your dad was saying. Count on it. Now, is the trade off worth it?

[A]

Right.

[B]

Am I more concerned about their disappointment or their cocaine use that's so extreme that it kind of becomes a duh. Of course I'm not concerned about their disappointment, even though it's guaranteed. I'm more concerned because I love my friend and they're killing themselves and I gotta help them. And their disappointment is part of the equation. And. But I used to think, well, maybe they'll be not disappointed and they'll change and no. Yeah, they're gonna be disappointed. Yeah, it's gonna, they're not gonna, they're not gonna like this. It's not gonna be happy.

[A]

And the only way to get over that, that fear is to know that to me, I think fear a lot is the unknown. Well, we can eliminate the unknown by saying it is going to happen. It will be known. You can't expect it. And they also have the agency with what to do with it.

[B]

They can decide how they want to. Well, they want to spend all their energy Being disappointed or angry or whatever the thing is, or. And continuing to be lacking in self awareness, which is what we're talking about. Really. Or are your dad's right? Are they gonna decide this guy really does love me? I think I can hear at least a little bit of this and I need to think about it.

[A]

And that was a variable that you can't control anymore.

[B]

No, no. I mean, the most healthy response I've ever seen, practicality is they look at me and they go, you're kind of pissing me off right now. But I think you got a point. You know, that's about the best one you can hope for.

[A]

Dave Ramsey on the. That's about a nutshell.

[B]

That's about the best you can hope for. Coming back at you, Dave. You know, you really hurt my feelings. I'm kind of mad at you right now, but I need to do. But I think. I think. I think you might be right. And I got to think about this. Yeah. Because I know you love me and that's the biggest best you can hope for. But to expect them to go, oh, no, thank you. I've been considering this for four weeks. And God sent you. No, he didn't. No, that's not how they're going to feel.

[A]

Sometimes you need a kick in the pants. Dave, thank you so much for coming on.

[B]

I'm honored. Honored to be with you, brother.

[A]

Appreciate it.