Transformation: Jesus & Saul Part 1

Summary

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The Jesus Podcast – “Transformation: Jesus & Saul Part 1”

Host: Zach (Pray.com)
Date: October 30, 2025
Episode Theme:
A riveting, dramatized retelling of Saul’s violent persecution of early Christians and an in-depth reflection on the radical transformation Jesus brings. This first part sets the stage for Saul’s (Paul’s) conversion by emphasizing his zeal, cruelty, inner struggle, and the unstoppable advance of the Gospel amidst suffering.

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1. Opening Reflection: Grace for the Broken

[00:01]

• The episode begins with a prayer themed on mercy:

  “We thank you, Lord, that you do not hold our past sins against us... We are not defined by our mistakes or failures, but by what Christ has accomplished for us and what he will accomplish through us.”

• Introduction to the day’s story: Saul the persecutor and his soon-to-come transformation.

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2. Dramatic Retelling: Saul, the Harbinger of Persecution

[02:07 – 05:25]

Key Event: Arrest and Interrogation of a Disciple

• Saul commands a raid on a Christian family’s home:
  • Angry, forceful commands—“Open up!” ([02:07])
  • A man comforts his terrified family as Saul drags him away.
• Inquisition scene:
  • Saul denounces the Christian:

    “You have been seen professing the blasphemy of the Nazarenes. I'm here to escort you to the hall of Congress Stones for questioning.” ([02:29])

  • The disciple boldly proclaims:

    “I'm not blaspheming against God, for I've witnessed and testified that Jesus is in fact the Messiah we've been waiting for.” ([03:16])

  • When Saul accuses Jesus of casting out demons by Satan, the disciple replies:

    “A house divided against itself cannot stand.” ([04:12])

  • The Sanhedrin condemns the man. Saul orders: “40 stripes!”—beatings as an instrument of fear. Children witness their fathers flogged.
• Saul’s relentless cycle:
  • “Find followers of Jesus. Drag them to court. Give them 40 lashes. Repeat. This had been Saul's ritual for months.” ([04:38])
• Personal enjoyment in persecution:
  • Saul’s zeal turns “sinister”—he begins to derive pleasure from inflicting pain.

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3. Host Reflection: The False Paths of Self-Righteousness

[06:30]

• Zach addresses the source of righteousness:

  “Where does your sense of righteousness come from? ... When it comes to our spiritual life, there's only one way that leads to righteousness. Jesus is the only way.”

• Introduces the episode’s spiritual focus: “Part one of two that takes us through the life of Saul before he encounters Jesus.”

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4. Escalation in Saul's Persecution

[07:08 – 09:40]

• Saul’s anger intensifies:
  • “Imprisonment is not enough... As the high priest said before, they must be killed.” ([07:08])
  • Direct quote justifying murder:

    “These filthy Nazarenes deserve to die for their crimes against God.” ([07:39])

  • When challenged about Roman law, Saul’s Roman citizenship becomes a means for more power.
• Tipping into brutality:
  • Targets families, publicly flogs, tortures Christians, drives many to renounce their faith.

    “Renounce Jesus and you will be spared.” ([09:40])

  • Weekly executions: “Saul was the grim reaper. Weekly the stone of execution was repainted with the blood of Jesus disciples.”

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5. Unintended Consequences: The Gospel Spreads

[09:44 – 12:33]

• Persecution fuels the movement’s spread:
  • Fleeing disciples carry Jesus’ story to Samaria, Asia Minor, and beyond.
  • “Persecution was like the wind to a wildfire for Jesus’s message—the more violent the persecution, the stronger the Nazarenes became.”
• Relentless campaign:
  • Saul seeks to expand his reach:

    “The synagogues of the north are being corrupted by this message of Jesus and if we don’t stop it soon, we’ll lose all influence in the more influential trade cities.” ([12:01])

  • Maps strategic expansion: begins with Damascus, receiving written authority for capture or execution.

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6. Saul’s Ambition Meets God’s Plan

[13:02 – 14:01]

• The high priest gives Saul a mandate:

  “You are our man... They will be your license to capture the Nazarenes or kill them if necessary.” ([13:29])

• Prophetic narrative:

  “This will mark the end of Jesus and the people of the way.” ([13:54])

  • Narrator’s transition: “They were painfully wrong. Saul thought he was pursuing Jesus, but Jesus was pursuing him.” ([14:01])

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7. Spiritual Reflection: The Nature of True Transformation

[14:15 – End]

• Zach’s core insights:
  • Paul’s zeal and religiosity were “bringing him further from God, not closer.”
  • Early church grew rapidly because of persecution—Jesus’ gospel is unstoppable.
  • “What Paul thought was a mission to eradicate the sinful Nazarenes was actually part of Jesus’ plan to eradicate the sin and pride in Saul’s heart.”
• The radical change in Saul/Paul:
  • Once proud and cruel, Paul becomes famed for humility and selflessness.
  • Direct quote, highlighting the change (Philippians 2):

    “Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility, value others above yourselves, not looking to your own interests, but each of you to the interests of others.”

• God’s redirection of Saul’s gifts:
  • The same intellect and spirit used to persecute the church would “build it up.”
  • “All the gifts, all the potential, are right there in people. They just need a change in motivation. They need a change in heart.”
• Grace for the outcast:
  • “There is no one too far deep in sin who cannot be pulled out and rescued by Jesus.”
  • Preview of next episode: Saul’s radical conversion.

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8. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You have been seen professing the blasphemy of the Nazarenes. I’m here to escort you...” (Saul/Paul, [02:29])
• “A house divided against itself cannot stand.” (Disciple, [04:12])
• “Find followers of Jesus. Drag them to court. Give them 40 lashes. Repeat. This had been Saul’s ritual for months.” (Narrator, [04:38])
• “Saul was the grim reaper. Weekly the stone of execution was repainted with the blood of Jesus disciples.” (Narrator, [09:40])
• “They were painfully wrong. Saul thought he was pursuing Jesus, but Jesus was pursuing him.” (Narrator, [14:01])
• “There is no one too far deep in sin who cannot be pulled out and rescued by Jesus.” (Host Zach, [End])

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9. Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:01] – Opening prayer and introduction of Saul as persecutor
• [02:07] – Saul’s raid on Christian home and brutal interrogation
• [03:16] – Disciple’s testimony and “A house divided…” quote
• [04:38] – Saul’s cycle of persecution
• [06:30] – Host Zach’s first reflection
• [07:08] – Saul pushes for executions
• [12:01] – Saul’s plan to expand persecution to Damascus
• [13:54] – High priest: “This will mark the end of Jesus and the people of the way.”
• [14:01] – “They were painfully wrong… Jesus was pursuing him.”
• [14:15–End] – Spiritual reflection on Saul’s transformation and God’s grace

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Summary

This episode blends intense drama with theological reflection to lay bare Saul’s early violence, self-righteous zeal, and the stealthy working of grace preparing for his transformation. The story starkly contrasts Saul’s merciless pursuit of Christians with the unstoppable, ever-growing movement catalyzed by persecution. With cinematic storytelling and clear scriptural reference, the host leads listeners to ponder the power of transformation—no one is ever too far gone for Jesus. The episode closes by inviting listeners to stay tuned for Saul’s conversion and the hope of redemption for every outcast.

Transcript

[Narrator]

Although I used to be a blasphemer, a persecutor, and insolent, however, I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. Heavenly Father, we stand in awe of your grace and mercy, especially as we reflect on our past sins and shortcomings. We thank you, Lord, that you do not hold our past sins against us. In your eyes, we are not defined by our mistakes or failures, but by what Christ has accomplished for us and what he will accomplish through us. Thank you for the transformative power of your love, which takes our broken pieces and crafts them into a beautiful story of redemption. Help us to live in the freedom of your forgiveness, embracing our identity as your beloved children called and equipped to do your will. May our lives testify to the depth of your grace, encouraging others that no past is too marred for your healing touch. In Jesus mighty name, we pray. Amen. Thank you for praying with me. Today you're listening to the Jesus Gospel stories retold to capture your imagination and invigorate your faith. Today we dive into the story of Paul the Apostle. Before his encounter with Christ, he was the Grim Reaper and harbinger of persecution for the church. Listen now for part one of his dramatic conversion story. Follow this podcast on whatever platform you're listening to. Doing so will keep you updated, but also help us get discovered by more people. We want the story of Jesus to be known throughout the world. Thanks for making that possible.

[Saul/Paul]

Open up.

[Narrator]

Paul shouted, pounding the door again, and yelled, come out.

[Saul/Paul]

We know you're in there.

[Narrator]

Paul gestured for the temple guards to break open the door. A man stood at a distance with his wife and children behind him, cowering in the corner. Saul ignored the tears and snarled at the man.

[Saul/Paul]

You have been seen professing the blasphemy of the Nazarenes. I'm here to escort you to the hall of Congress Stones for questioning.

[Narrator]

The man knelt down to his family and reassured them that it would be all right. Saul and the guards dragged him out of his home to the hall. There, Saul bombarded him with questions as he had with the others.

[Saul/Paul]

You're aware that professing another God besides the Lord and gathering followers against him is a crime against our people and punishable by imprisonment and torture.

[Narrator]

Paul spat. The disciple did not seem worried. Like many people who stood in court before him, he seemed excited about the opportunity to talk about Jesus.

[Disciple/Christian]

I have something to argue in favor of my innocence, he said boldly. I'm not blaspheming against God, for I've witnessed and testified that Jesus is in fact the Messiah we've been waiting for.

[Narrator]

The Sanhedrin stirred in their seats. Paul stepped closer to him and yelled, liar.

[Saul/Paul]

You have been corrupted by the same foul doctrine as the others. Renounce his name or face the consequences.

[Narrator]

I met him myself, the man said proudly.

[Disciple/Christian]

I was one of the 70 that followed him to Galilee and then back to Jerusalem. I traveled with him. I heard him teach from the law and the prophets, and I witnessed him heal the sick and open the eyes of the blind. He even cast out demons.

[Saul/Paul]

He could only cast out demons because he was one himself, paul said aggressively.

[Disciple/Christian]

Why would Satan cast out Satan?

[Narrator]

The man asked calmly.

[Disciple/Christian]

A house divided against itself cannot stand.

[Narrator]

Like many of the Nazarenes, this man was very familiar with the teachings of Jesus. Many of them spoke with such firm convictions, it was as if Jesus himself was speaking.

[Saul/Paul]

We have heard enough, saul said.

[Narrator]

He turned to the high priest in council, saying, you've heard it yourself.

[Saul/Paul]

40 stripes are the only way to keep this man from spreading more lies.

[Narrator]

The council agreed. The temple guards beat him to the ground and then dragged him away. Paul spat at him and he left. Find followers of Jesus. Drag them to court. Give them 40 lashes. Repeat. This had been Saul's ritual for months. He had spent the greater part of a year breathing threats against the Nazarenes. He had leveraged his Roman citizenship to condemn them to corporal punishment. Day after day, he led prisoners to the flogging beam. Crowds surrounded them as Saul ordered men to be lashed to pieces.

[Saul/Paul]

40 stripes.

[Narrator]

He shouted, following the sound of screams.

[Saul/Paul]

40 stripes.

[Narrator]

He yelled as children watched their fathers flogged. But these Nazarenes were like cockroaches, refusing to die. No matter how aggressively Saul hunted them. The movement continued to gain momentum. Thousands were added to them daily, and the ones they called apostles continued escaping imprisonment. Saul's religious zeal was mutating into something far more sinister. He was taking pleasure in their pain. With every flogging, beating and stoning, Saul sought to kill his conviction. He wasn't aware of the war that was being raged within his heart. Like Cain murdering his brother Abel, Saul's violence was aimed at people. But his actual target was the Creator. He wasn't raging against the men and women. He was raging against God.

[Host (Zach)]

Where does your sense of righteousness come from? Is it your work? Your personal life? Your health? The things we do well? Or make us feel good about ourselves? When it comes to our spiritual life, there's only one way that leads to righteousness. Jesus is the only way that leads to righteousness. Welcome to the Jesus Podcast, a year story showcasing the depth of Christ's love through storytelling and the glory of God's truth through honest reflection. I'm Zach, Your host from Pray.com Today's episode is part one of two that takes us through the life of Saul before he encounters Jesus. Follow the podcast so you don't miss out on any of it.

[Saul/Paul]

Imprisonment is not enough.

[Narrator]

Saul shouted to his fellow Sanhedrin. His hands were shaking from pent up wrath.

[Saul/Paul]

As the high priest said before, they must be killed.

[Narrator]

Like their leader, the Sanhedrin had learned to follow Saul's lead in the persecution of the Nazarenes, but they were trepidatious about taking such extreme measures. Since killing Stephen, nothing seemed to change.

[Saul/Paul]

Have you all lost hearts so quickly?

[Narrator]

Saul scolded.

[Saul/Paul]

It is as David wrote. Do I not hate those who hate you, O Lord, and hate those who are in rebellion against you? These filthy Nazarenes deserve to die for their crimes against God.

[Narrator]

One of the council members raised his voice in objection, saying, the Romans were.

[Saul/Paul]

Not pleased when we took action against Stephen. They will not want us taking such measures outside their authority.

[Narrator]

Have some faith, brother Saul encouraged.

[Saul/Paul]

I am a Roman citizen and can find the right papers to persecute them.

[Narrator]

To what aim, Saul, another member asked.

[Saul/Paul]

Did not seem afraid to die.

[Narrator]

Saul paused. He felt a brief moment of shame in what he was about to say, but quickly pushed against it. Like an ox kicking against the farmer's goad, he pushed against the conviction deep within his heart. He doubled down on his hatred and.

[Saul/Paul]

Declared, once they start dying, they will wake up to the severity of their sins. I can procure the right papers from the Romans to send the Nazarenes running.

[Narrator]

Torture and imprisonment had not worked, so death was the last option. The Sanhedrin were content to let Saul loose. Like a rabid dog, he stormed out and began the preparations for public executions. He entered house after house and dragged men and women into the streets. For most of them it was flogging. For many it was imprisonment. Paul threatened death, but he had not yet had a license. Paul threatened death, but he did not yet have the license to kill. Eventually, some of the Nazarenes began to succumb to Paul's relentless barrage of threats. After hours of torture, they bent their knees to Saul and begged for mercy.

[Saul/Paul]

Renounce Jesus and you will be spared.

[Narrator]

He said with gritted teeth. Some of them renounced the name of Jesus and cowered away like wounded animals. But some, despite being tortured, would not relent. No amount of flogging imprisonment or torture would quiet the anthem of Jesus. For those few who who refused to waver, the punishment was death. Saul was the grim reaper. Weekly the stone of execution was repainted with the blood of Jesus disciples. Saul's conscience remained unmoved. Even as women wept over their husbands bodies or children screamed as their mother was drugged to prison. Saul's wrath was not halted. As the winter months approached and the cold wind howled from the hills, the persecution of the Nazarenes heated. The intense violence scattered the disciples abroad in the escape of Saul and his minions. They left the region of Judea into Samaria and Asia Minor. Some even went overseas, back to their homeland. At first, Saul was pleased that they had left Jerusalem. Until he received reports from abroad. The Gospel of Jesus was like a contagion. Wherever the Nazarenes fled, the news of Jesus life, death and resurrection spread. Word came from the north that followers of the Way were multiplying abroad even faster than in Jerusalem. Persecution was like the wind to a wildfire for Jesus message. The more violent the persecution, the stronger the Nazarenes became. Despite this, Saul persisted like a mighty wind raging against the fire.

[Saul/Paul]

We must expand our reach, Sol declared.

[Narrator]

To the rest of the Sanhedrin.

[Saul/Paul]

The synagogues of the north are being corrupted by this message of Jesus and if we don't stop it soon, we'll lose all influence in the more influential trade cities.

[Narrator]

Jerusalem was a golden city of religious thought and power. But he knew all the money and influence resided in the Roman port city. He needed to extinguish the Nazarenes before everything unraveled. The high priest leaned over his seat and stroked his beard.

[High Priest]

Our influence does not go far, Saul. We must tread lightly so we do not perturb the Romans.

[Saul/Paul]

I agree. The Romans would not want us to.

[Narrator]

Be a disturbance, Paul said with a nod.

[Saul/Paul]

However, we still have a good amount of self government in Damascus, Phoenicia and Antioch. The local governors are lax and allow us to punish our own people, especially with the right bribes.

[Narrator]

Saul rolled out a map and placed a finger on his intended target.

[Saul/Paul]

I say we begin with Damascus and drag every Nazarene we can find back to Jerusalem on a road. If they refuse, then we discreetly execute them there. They need to know our reach extends beyond these borders. The Nazarenes can't escape God.

[Narrator]

The high priest looked to the other council members and then back to Saul.

[High Priest]

You are our man, he said. We shall write letters to the local synagogue demanding they cooperate. They will be your license to capture the Nazarenes or Kill them if necessary.

[Narrator]

Saul smiled and bowed his head. The high priest raised his hands to God and struck a pious pose.

[High Priest]

This will mark the end of Jesus and the people of the way.

[Narrator]

They were painfully wrong. Saul thought he was pursuing Jesus, but Jesus was pursuing him.

[Host (Zach)]

If you want to get anywhere specific in life, you have to know the path it takes to get there. Paul had spent his entire life striving down the path he thought would lead him to righteousness. Little did he know he was headed in the opposite direction. His zeal and religiosity had formed a life of pride and selfishness that only brought him further from God, not closer. After Jesus death, his gospel message took off and thousands were being saved by the day. What the Jews thought would be the end of Christ and his mission was only the beginning. The way to eternal life had been opened up and there were so many people choosing to take this path. But Saul was wholeheartedly opposed to it. He was determined to stand victorious against this perceived attack against the law of Moses. But what Paul thought was a mission to eradicate the sinful Nazarenes was actually part of Jesus's plan to eradicate the sin in pride in Saul's heart, Saul sometimes referred Saul, who we later on know to be Paul the Apostle is one of the most influential figures in Christendom. In the course of 13 years of ministry he traveled over 7,000 miles and planted at least 14 churches along the way. He single handedly authored more books than any biblical author and and is considered a key figure in the early church. But this wasn't always the case for Saul. He wasn't always the faithful apostle and church planter. Before his conversion, Paul was an enemy of the church and someone to be feared by those who followed Jesus. He threatened the well being and lives of many on his road to personal glory. Looking at Saul's life gives us a radical idea of the transformative power of the Gospel and reminds us that no one is too far gone to be saved by Jesus. Before salvation, Saul is self consumed, conceited and concerned only with work that gives him a sense of self righteousness. As a Pharisee and member of the Sanhedrin, he had much to boast about. And as the early church began to flourish, it made him vulnerable to lose everything that he had built up. He had built this name for himself. Taking a closer look at the actual persecution caused by Saul is terrifying. Civility had been thrown out the window as he stood by to watch men and women dragged from their homes to be put on trial. And punished. There was no tone of remorse as children wept in fear. All that remained in Paul's heart was a devotion to his plans to maintain power. Saul wasn't only willing to hurt others to accomplish his goals, he was happy to do so. He's content leaving tragedy in his wake on his mission of self righteousness. In order to maintain self righteousness, we must all focus on ourselves. Pride needs to be stoked and fanned like a well tended to fire. If we want to feel like we're number one, we have to make ourselves number one and each day choose selfish decisions. While this was Saul at one point in life, we see a drastically different picture after he's saved. Once a man ruled by selfishness, the new man Saul would become Paul the Apostle Paul. He would preach humility, selflessness and devotion to Christ. Saul would write this to the church in Philippians. Therefore, if you have any encouragement from being unified with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in his spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, then make my joy complete by being like minded, having the same love, being of one spirit and one mind. Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, rather in humility. Value others above yourselves, not looking to your own interests, but each of you to the interests of others. This is a far different perspective on life than what we see in Saul the Pharisee. All because Jesus transformed his heart. As a member of the Sanhedrin, the Jewish ruling council, Saul played a major part in defending Jewish law and exacting the subsequent judgment against Jewish Christians. While Paul said that he was defending God, we learned in our study of Malchus that God doesn't need us to defend him. In reality, Paul was defending himself and his power. He was defending an institution that was against the movement of Christ. He was defending everything that he had built his life upon. He was defending a false sense of righteousness. The irony is that what he was doing to supposedly defend God was having the opposite effect. But God saw the potential in a powerful man like Saul. Once he was converted, Saul would become a force of nature for the gospel. God used his incredible intellect for a greater purpose. The same mind and resolute spirit that drove Saul in persecution of the church would be the same tools God would use to actually build it up. Saul would transform to move the gospel forward. This is a beautiful example that the gifts we use to build ourselves up when submitted to the Spirit of God can be used for a greater purpose, used for the movement of God, the Gospel, and to make the world a better place. Oftentimes all the gifts, all the potential are right there in people. They just need a change in motivation. They need a change in heart. Everything Saul previously did in the name of righteousness was all a facade for a deep anger in his heart. Anger at the influence of Jesus, anger at perhaps a loss of power, anger at the people who he couldn't control. Anger over a movement that threatened to rob him of his sense of righteousness. But once his heart was turned, once hatred was converted to love after his encounter with Jesus, he would never be the same. He would be a force of nature for the gospel. God's love changes lives. There is no one too far deep in sin who cannot be pulled out and rescued by Jesus. We're going to continue to learn that in Saul's life in our next episode as we conclude this series on Jesus and the Outcasts. This is an I Heart podcast.