4p ET Update on Epstein-Gate! With Rep. Eric Swalwell and Stuart Stevens

Summary

The Jim Acosta Show

Episode: 4p ET Update on Epstein-Gate!

Guests: Rep. Eric Swalwell & Stuart Stevens
Date: November 12, 2025

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Episode Overview

This dramatic episode provides a real-time update on the political firestorm surrounding the so-called "Epstein-Gate." Host Jim Acosta examines the release of emails allegedly written by Jeffrey Epstein linking Donald Trump to Epstein's criminal activities, as well as the ongoing struggle in the House to force transparency around the Epstein files. Congressman Eric Swalwell discusses Democratic strategies and the implications for the GOP, while former Republican strategist Stuart Stevens offers a scathing reflection on what this scandal reveals about the state of the Republican Party and American democracy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Breaking News: Emails Link Trump to Epstein

• House Democrats have released emails, allegedly from Jeffrey Epstein, suggesting that Donald Trump spent significant time at Epstein's home with a "victim" (name redacted).
• A 2011 email between Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell describes Trump as "the dog that hasn't barked," implying Trump was an unexploded liability or secret.

Notable Quote

• “There seem—I mean, Donald Trump is all over these emails… the original email goes all the way back to 2011, April of 2011, before Trump was a candidate for president…”
  — Jim Acosta [03:33]

2. Congressional Maneuvering: The "Epstein Shutdown"

• Rep. Swalwell argues the extended government shutdown was engineered specifically to avoid a vote that would release the Epstein files. He suggests Speaker Mike Johnson deliberately kept Congress out of session to avoid accountability.
• Swearing in Adelita Grijalva (D-AZ) would provide the Democrats the key 218th vote required to force action on the files.

Notable Quotes

• “It was an Epstein shutdown... The only logical conclusion, Jim, was that if we were in session, he would be forced to swear in Adelita Grijalva, who would be the 218th vote to force a vote on the Epstein files.” — Rep. Eric Swalwell [01:40]
• “Every day that Johnson refused to swear in Adelita is a day that we should add up and refuse to swear in Johnson when we're in the majority.” — Rep. Eric Swalwell [07:04]

3. Republican Pressure & Fractures

• Trump and his White House are actively pressuring Republican lawmakers not to "defect" or open up the Epstein files.
• Specific Republicans like Lauren Boebert and Nancy Mace are under scrutiny, with Boebert identified as susceptible to flipping on the issue.
• The Democratic strategy is to push for transparency now, rather than let the issue fester.

Notable Quotes

• “You do not have to be an accomplice to child sex trafficking…you don't have to protect Jeffrey Epstein.” — Rep. Eric Swalwell [03:19]
• “She's the most likely to flip. She's the weakest, the least mature, the most susceptible to pressure from the White House. But look at. It's all coming out, Jim…” — Rep. Eric Swalwell [05:52]

4. White House Response

• Press Secretary Caroline Levitt dismisses the emails: “These emails prove absolutely nothing other than the fact that President Trump did nothing wrong.” [11:42]
• Jim Acosta points out the White House’s line—Trump allegedly “kicked Epstein out” of Mar-a-Lago—is contradicted by other documents.

5. The Broader Scandal & GOP Complicity

• Stuart Stevens reflects on the collapse of Republican “family values” and the party’s willingness to tolerate ever-escalating scandals.
• He draws historical comparisons (Clinton, Watergate, Access Hollywood) and laments the party’s refusal to act as a “circuit breaker.”
• Discussion of ongoing coverup efforts, the role of Cash Patel and others in the government, and the possibility future evidence will further incriminate Trump and party leaders.

Notable Quotes (Stevens)

• “My old party is the family values party…What’s a little pedophilia between friends, you know?” [16:21/16:47]
• “It’s a fascinating story: once you accept the unacceptable, it’s just a slippery slope down…” — Stuart Stevens [21:59]
• “The party never cared about family values.” — Stuart Stevens [27:46]

6. Moral Reckoning for the GOP

• Jim Acosta and Stuart Stevens muse on whether the Republican Party has any “off ramp” or is heading for electoral/self-destruction: “Is this now Thelma and Louise time?” [27:09]
• They discuss peer pressure, normalization of extremism, and the importance of personal and collective accountability.
• Acosta recalls historical figures (Howard Baker, John Boehner, Tip O’Neill) to highlight how far norms have decayed.

Notable Quotes

• “Once you begin to accept the unacceptable, where do you stop?” — Stuart Stevens [39:20]
• “This is a wake up call…Mayday, Mayday. SOS. Is there anybody in the Republican Party? Blink twice if you hear me. It is time to come home.”
  — Jim Acosta [42:13]

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Important Timestamps & Segments

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |-----------|--------------| | 00:00–01:15 | Jim Acosta summarizes the breaking news; Swalwell joins | | 01:15–02:54 | Swalwell explains the "Epstein shutdown" strategy | | 03:19 | Swalwell appeals to Republicans' morals: “You do not have to be an accomplice….” | | 05:25 | Grijalva's pivotal role and the push to release Epstein files | | 06:42–07:50 | Discussion of Grijalva being blocked from House, implications for 2026 | | 11:32 | Caroline Levitt's White House presser, deflection on emails | | 16:21–19:32 | Stuart Stevens rips GOP family values hypocrisy | | 21:59 | “Once you accept the unacceptable…”—on party’s moral slide | | 27:09-28:42 | Reflection on party’s trajectory and likelihood of accountability | | 33:39-34:10 | Rep. Grijalva finally sworn in—restoring legislative democracy | | 36:21–39:20 | Mobster management, Trump’s grip on loyalists | | 42:13 | Jim Acosta’s closing “wake up call” to the Republican Party |

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Memorable Quotes

• “You may have signed up for a lot, you know, with how far you're going to go with Donald Trump, but you don't have to protect Jeffrey Epstein.”
  — Eric Swalwell [03:19]

• “It was an Epstein shutdown… The only logical conclusion, Jim, was that if we were in session, [Grijalva] would be forced to swear in … to force a vote on the Epstein files.”
  — Eric Swalwell [01:40]

• “This is some wild shit.”
  — Stuart Stevens [17:03]

• “The party never cared about family values.”
  — Stuart Stevens [27:46]

• “Once you begin to accept the unacceptable, where do you stop?”
  — Stuart Stevens [39:20]

• "This is a wake up call…Mayday, Mayday. SOS. Is there anybody in the Republican Party? Blink twice if you hear me. It is time to come home. It is time to come back to America."
  — Jim Acosta [42:13]

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Additional Takeaways

• Escalating Stakes: The next 48–72 hours could see a Republican defect, triggering release of the Epstein files—or still more aggressive White House stonewalling.
• Legal & Political Ramifications: DOJ compliance and further leaks are imminent flashpoints. The episode suggests the scandal is “just beginning.”
• Normalization of Extremism: Both guests warn of the danger in gradual normalization of legal, moral, and democratic breaches.
• Call to Action: Acosta urges Republicans to break with Trump for the survival of party and country.

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Tone & Language

The conversation is urgent, impassioned, and, at times, darkly comic, reflecting both the seriousness of the revelations and the exasperation of those chronicling them. Swalwell is direct, pragmatic, and forceful; Stevens mixes sarcasm with gravity, while Acosta maintains his signature blend of incisiveness and incredulity.

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This summary was designed to orient listeners to all major topics, memorable moments, and the authentic voices of those involved in this pivotal episode.

Transcript

[Jim Acosta]

Foreign, everybody. Welcome to the Jim Acosta show. And it is breaking news. We've been covering it all day long. We were with you earlier this morning. We're going to bring it to you live now. Once again, the breaking news in Epstein Gate. Democrats in the House of Representatives released a small batch of emails allegedly written by Jeffrey Epstein that claim that Donald Trump had, quote, spent hours at my house, referring to Jeffrey Epstein's house with a, quote, victim whose name was redacted in one message. In the same email purportedly By Epstein In 2011, the child sex offender wrote to his longtime accomplice Ghislaine Maxwell, that Trump was the, quote, dog that hasn't barked. Joining me now to talk about this, Congressman Eric Swalwell, Democrat of California. Congressman, I mean, let's just jump right into this. You're, you're heading back to the Capitol now as we speak.

[Eric Swalwell]

Just, just landed. Yeah, I was in California this morning. Just landed. And no surprise here, right? I mean, it was always about Epstein. That's why the government was shut down. That's why people were not paid for 40 plus days. That's why our economy came to a screeching halt. And here we are.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah, well, and that was something that you heard from the White House, the Republicans, that it was Democrats who shut down the government. Even though you're not in the majority really anywhere in Washington you hope to be in after 2026. But I know you've made this case on several occasions that you believe Mike Johnson was very instrumental in this and that Congress was shut down. The House in particular was shut down to avoid releasing the Epstein files.

[Eric Swalwell]

It was an Epstein shutdown because I've been in shutdowns before. And whether it was a Republican speaker or Democratic speaker, one thing was always true. Congress was in session every day of the shutdown to try and force a deal. Because when you're in the press and you're around your colleagues and you're working and you're interacting with them and you're held accountable by the press who are asking, like, what's the deal going to be that forces a deal? And you know what the stakes are of the people who are suffering here. Unlike any other shutdown in the past, Johnson just went on vacation for 50 plus days. Congress was not in session. And the only logical conclusion, Jim, was that if we were in session, he would be forced to swear in Adelita Grijalva, who would be the 218th vote to force a vote on the Epstein files. And everything I've heard from My Republican colleagues is that protect them from taking that vote. But if that vote is public, they absolutely are going to vote to release the files. So she's going to be sworn in today. That vote's gonna be public imminently. And my prediction is that almost every single Republican is gonna vote to release it, especially in light of what we just learned today.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah, and they're freaking out over at the White House. Trump put out a truth social post that was basically warning Republicans, don't defect, don't be part of this. This attempt to distract from the public. It says there should be no deflections to Epstein or anything else, and any Republicans involved should be focused only on opening up our country and fixing the massive damage caused by the Democrats. I mean, with an exclamation point, to.

[Eric Swalwell]

My Republican colleagues, I would just say you do not have to be an accomplice to child sex trafficking. Like, you may have signed up for a lot, you know, with how far you're going to go with Donald Trump, but you don't have to protect Jeffrey Epstein.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. And I mean, some of these revelations are just. I mean, they're just damning. And there seem. I mean, Donald Trump is all over these emails. There are text messages between. We were showing this earlier this morning, apparently between Epstein and Steve Bannon. Some of these were going on in 2019. The email, though, the original email that I wrote or that I read at the beginning of this, goes all the way back to 2011, April of 2011, before Trump was a candidate for president, before he was really involved in politics. That much, I guess he was spreading the birther conspiracy may back then, that sort of thing. But Epstein and Maxwell are talking about this and. And she says, I've been thinking about that, the fact that Trump is not the dog. He's not the. He's the dog that hasn't barked yet.

[Eric Swalwell]

And we always knew, Jim, that they were connected, that they were friends. You know, it felt like there were more, more photos of Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein than Donald Trump and anyone in his family. And it now makes a lot of sense as to why Mike Johnson and everyone else who has access to the files, like Cash Patel, worked so hard to take the shovels out and bury this evidence so far beneath the earth, because it was not going to look good when we learned how close they are, how closely they are connected. And by the way, this is a movement of his own doing. Like, he is the one who for many years, almost a decade, promised that there.

[Jim Acosta]

Was.

[Eric Swalwell]

He ran, described if this was like Baked cake files are the fly. It's a ingredient of the movement coming home to roost because his supporters were promised they would learn who are in those files. And we're learning that Donald Trump is closer than any of us even had imagined.

[Jim Acosta]

Right. And apparently there's this for folks who are just tuning, we came on a little early because Congressman Swallow was available. Apparently there's an effort going on to try to convince some of these Republicans in the House, people like Lauren Boebert, Nancy Mace, to see if they'll switch their votes. Apparently, Nancy Mace has come out and said that that's not going to happen. But Lauren Boebert, I mean, the White House, I believe, did confirm that they have been putting pressure on Lauren Boebert.

[Eric Swalwell]

Yeah, she's the most likely, frankly, I know all of these characters. She's the most likely to flip. She's the weakest, the least mature, the most susceptible to pressure from the White House. But look at. It's all coming out, Jim, like that. That's what we're learning here. It's all coming out. We can either do it through a congressional subpoena or the Epstein estate will continue to provide it, or we can be in the majority in a year and it'll come out. But also, just so your viewers know, in about a month, we are going to swear in another Democratic member of Congress who is going to fill the Sylvester Turner seat from Houston. So we're going to have that 218th vote. And so it's better for the sake of transparency and just owning up to it, for the American people to do it now rather than to try and again, keep this buried.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. And I mean, the effort to keep Adelita Grialva out of the House of Representatives, I mean, it's what, six?

[Eric Swalwell]

Never seen anything like that before. Yeah, never seen anything like that.

[Jim Acosta]

She gets elected in a special election and. And they just flat out don't swear her in. And apparently I heard from one of the Epstein survivors today that some of them are going down there to attend her swearing in. This is going to be a big moment.

[Eric Swalwell]

I'll be there shortly. It's going to happen imminently. I'm going to head into my office, change and head over to the floor. But it's a long time coming, frankly. I've told our leadership that every day that Johnson refused to swear in Adelita is a day that we should add up and refuse to swear in Johnson when we're in the majority. Like there has to be consequences for what he did. Here, and they should not think it's so easy to do this. And I also fear, if I'm being completely honest, that this is a little bit of a dry run for not accepting the results of the 2026 midterm election. And they were essentially trying to see what was the pain tolerance of our caucus and the country to not swear in a legitimately elected member of Congress.

[Jim Acosta]

And I know you got to run, but very quickly, just your thoughts on the shutdown. Apparently, it's going to come to an end, I guess. I guess the Republicans will have enough votes because they're in the majority to pass this thing. What took place in the Senate with some of those Democrats crossing over. What do you think of all that?

[Eric Swalwell]

Well, we need stronger leaders in times like these. You know, the voters and our constituents, they were counting on us to be champions for lower health care costs. And they knew that Democrats, that we were fighting to reduce the cost of health insurance. Republicans weren't willing to open up the Congress. And now we know why. In part to protect the President from the Epstein files. And so you could even say they were for the files and we were for the food. They chose files. We chose the food. We had the high ground. People were with us. There was a midterm election or a off your election in the midst of all this, and it was a wipeout for Republicans. So I don't understand why anyone's interpretation would be. Well, when you hold all of the cards, that's the best time to fold. So, you know, those are. Those Senate Democrats have a right to explain their vote, but I also have a right to share my piece. And that piece is we need stronger leaders. And times like these, they reveal two things. Who should lead and who should leave.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. No, and I mean, and. And just very quick. I mean, imagine how much more leverage you would have today if they had just held out a few more days with. With this Epstein stuff coming out.

[Eric Swalwell]

That's absolutely right. That's absolutely right.

[Jim Acosta]

Even more leverage. Congressman Rex. Well, it looks like you've arrived at the cap.

[Eric Swalwell]

I'm at the Capitol.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. Live in the car, sort of. There you go. There it is. We'll let you get to work. I know exactly where you're parked right now. It looks like you're in between canon and one of the other.

[Eric Swalwell]

That's exactly right.

[Stuart Stevens]

Great.

[Eric Swalwell]

You still got it.

[Jim Acosta]

I still got. Still. I kind of have it, but I know you still got it. Thanks a lot.

[Eric Swalwell]

Thanks, Jim.

[Jim Acosta]

Congressman Eric Swalwell of California. And you know, there was A I'm gonna have Stu Stephens coming up in just a few moments with the Lincoln Project, Lincoln Square, former Republican strategist, author of some great books on this current moment that we're in right now. And we're going to get Stu's, you know, takes on all of this in just a few moments. But we have to point out, and I get a chance to talk about this with Congressman Swalwell because he, he was running over to Adelita Grialva swearing in. That's going to be happening any moment now. She is the Arizona congresswoman elect who was voted in by her constituents in that district six or seven weeks ago. And House Speaker Mike Johnson refused to swear her in because he knew that she was going to be the decisive vote, the 288th decisive vote to go on this discharge petition, a legislative maneuver to force the release of the Epstein files. Now, of course, if and when that happens, the question will become, does the Justice Department turn it over? I, I, I Again, Donald Trump does not listen to if another, if one branch of government says they have to do something, he does not listen and they don't listen. So that's one piece of the drama that we're gonna have to keep our eyes on. But another piece of the drama played out in the White House briefing room earlier today where the press secretary, Caroline Levitt, you almost feel sorry. I did not feel sorry for, I'm just going to state, from the very beginning, I did not feel sorry for her. But you almost do because she had to go in there and take some questions. And she barely took any questions from legitimate news outlets as she took questions from the, from the ringers, the sycophants, the apologists that they've stocked the White House briefing room with these days. But she was asked about some of these emails and let's play a little bit of what she said.

[Stuart Stevens]

Emails that have been released by House Democrats. Separate from why you believe the emails were made public, can you address their substance?

[Caroline Levitt]

Did the president ever spend hours at Jeffrey Fc House with a victim? These emails prove absolutely nothing other than the fact that President Trump did nothing wrong. And what President Trump has always said is that he was from Palm beach and so was Jeffrey Epstein. Jeffrey Epstein was a member at Mar a Lago until President Trump kicked him out. Because Jeffrey Epstein was a pedophile and he was a creep.

[Jim Acosta]

Sure. So there you go. That's been the White House line for some time now. For folks who follow this very closely, you will know that that's, that is what Aid after aid spokesperson after spokesperson for Donald Trump has said repeatedly that, you know, this is why Donald Trump kicked Jeffrey Epstein out of his club. Now, there's some question as to whether or not Epstein was in fact a member of the club. There were some other documents and emails that we were looking at earlier today where it was indicated Jeffrey Epstein was saying that he was not a member. So that, I mean, there's a, there's a lot to sift through. I was talking with Congressman Robert Garcia earlier today. He is the ranking member on the House Oversight Committee. And he was saying, this is why we need Galaine Maxwell to testify. Galaine Maxwell, the longtime, confident confidant of Jeffrey Epstein, she's now currently a, in a minimum security prison in Texas. She got that little housing situation from the Trump administration after she, after she told Todd Blanche, top official, Justice Department, exactly what he and Donald Trump wanted to hear. She basically said, oh, Donald Trump didn't do anything wrong. Can I get out now, please? Was essentially the gist of her comments. And now, of course, we have these emails. Here's the one from April 2nd of, of 2011. Very important email. I want you to realize that the dog that hasn't barked is Trump victim, redacted name, spent hours at my home with him, at my house with him. He has never once been mentioned. Police Chief, Etc. I'm 75 there. And then she says, I have been thinking about that. Now, what you just heard Caroline Levitt say a few moments ago was that the email actually exonerates Donald Trump, which it does not, does not do that. It absolutely does not do that. And this is the jam that they're in right now. The jam that they're in right now is that they need you, the American people, people around the world who are watching, to not believe your eyes and ears. To not believe what you're reading in an email that goes all the way back to 2011. This is before Donald Trump really got involved in national politics. He was somebody who just yapped on TV from time to time. That's true. He was not a candidate until 2015. And there are emails from that time period as well. There was an email From December of 2015 between the author Michael Wolf and Jeffrey Epstein, allegedly in which it is claimed. And there it is, right there. There's the Michael Wolf email. December 15, 2015. Now, this is five, six months after Trump has announced he's running for president. I hear CNN planning to ask Trump tonight about his relationship with you, either on the air or in a scrum Afterwards. And then Jeffrey Epstein, if you have. If you didn't watch our coverage earlier today, I'll go over a lot of this again. Jeevacationmail.com if that's not a disgusting email address, I don't know what is. And Epstein responds to Michael Wolf. If we were to craft an answer for him, what would it be? And Michael Wolf goes on to say in that email, I think you should let him hang himself. If he says he hasn't been on the plane or to the house, then that gives you a valuable PR and local currency. You can hang him in a way that potentially generates a positive benefit for you. Or if it really looks like he could win, you could save him generating a debt. Of course, it is possible that when asked, he'll say Jeffrey is a great guy and has gotten a raw deal and is a victim of in a Trump regime. What's important about all of this is that Michael Wolf appears to be. And I'm just going to say it, you know, Michael Wolf might disagree with this characterization. He's welcome to come on if he wants to. Michael Wolf is basically coaching Jeffrey Epstein on how to handle all this. Let's bring in our friend Stuart Stevens from the Lincoln Project, Lincoln Square, author of some great books on this current crisis that we're in. Stu, good. Good to see you again, man. What a day.

[Stuart Stevens]

I just want to take this opportunity to remind you that my old party is the family values party. Just don't, don't ever. Don't ever, man. Where was, as Peggy Noonan famously wrote about Ronald Reagan, character is king. So, you know, we haven't drifted away from that at all. It's still right there at centerpiece to everything that Republicans believe, you know, no kings, though.

[Jim Acosta]

No kings.

[Stuart Stevens]

What's a little pedophilia between friends, you know, man, oh, man.

[Jim Acosta]

But, and, and, I mean, these emails, you've been in politics a long time. You've covered a lot of this as an, as an observer and a writer and so on. This is some wild shit.

[Stuart Stevens]

This is some wild shit. Yeah. Look, the thing that I go back to about Trump, it is the most depressing is we knew so much before we elected him the first time.

[Jim Acosta]

Yes.

[Stuart Stevens]

You know, and we certainly knew a lot before we elected him the second time. And, you know, I really blame the Republican Party for this because parties in our system have to be a circuit breaker. And this party should have come forward and said, no, we're not doing this. If it means we lose an election, we lose an election. There's Something more important than that. And, you know, I don't listen to the Senate, listen to these members of. How many senators are going to say Republican senators are going to say anything about this?

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah, that's a good point.

[Stuart Stevens]

I think very few. How many Republican governors out there are going to say, this is outrageous?

[Jim Acosta]

It's like the sign on the factory wall. Days without an accident. Days without a comment from a Republican criticizing Trump.

[Stuart Stevens]

It's really extraordinary. And I think it's just a collapse of a party unlike anything that we've seen, I mean, certainly in modern history. I'm not sure going back when there's been as much.

[Jim Acosta]

And part of it is, Stu, is we're watching, watching this in real time. So we don't know where this is going. I had Robert Garcia on earlier today's the ranking Democrat, very aggressive on the House Oversight Committee. He said there's more coming. There's more coming.

[Stuart Stevens]

Well, look, I mean, yeah, at a certain point, you know, you have to say, just give me a break. What do we know about Donald Trump? Yeah, this is a guy talked in public repeatedly about dating his own daughter.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah.

[Stuart Stevens]

Okay. I mean, this is a guy who, you know, has pictures of himself with models everywhere. You know, a guy who, I mean, the following is a true statement. Donald Trump had sex with a porn star four months after his youngest son was born to his third wife, who he met while married to his second wife and while they were still married to second wife, talked to the New York Post about how great sex was. And this was after his first wife, he had an affair with with his second wife. So, I mean, that's who Donald Trump is. And the guy that, you know, and Miss Teen Universe contest, you know, I mean, he's a total sleazebag.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. And you would think that, I mean, the Republicans, you know, they go along with Access Hollywood. He gets an office. I mean, and some of these emails, by the way, that were reported on today, occurred in 2019. So, I mean, this is, you know, some of these emails are when Trump is a candidate in 2015, when he's president, 29. I mean, you know, some of this stuff, it's, the timeline is wild, but every step of the way. You're absolutely right, Stu. Republican leaders have stomached this, have gone along with this. Here are some texts between Epstein and Bennett allegedly in 2019. This is months before Epstein allegedly committed suicide. And Bannon says to Epstein, can't believe nobody is making you the connective tissue between himself and Donald Trump. And, you know, they've just gone along with it every step of the way. Mike Johnson, the House shut down.

[Stuart Stevens]

You know, if we put a picture of Steve Bannon up there, and you would say this guy was texting with Jeffrey Epstein, you wouldn't say, no, he doesn't look the part at all.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah, that's true.

[Stuart Stevens]

You know, these are just horrible people. And, you know, the stuff that we used to say in the party that go back to when Clinton and the Monica Lewinsky thing, you know, when William Bennett was writing the book of virtue, when there was this sort of universal outcry that the reason this is important is because the White House, the Oval Office, is more than an executive position. It is the heart and soul of the country and embodies something. And I can tell you, Jim, you know, all the ads that we made in the Bush 2000 campaign, all those ads we raised, the ones pretty much only that worked, were the ones where George Bush was saying he would restore honor and dignity to the White House.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah.

[Stuart Stevens]

And that really resonated with people, and that's ultimately why Al Gore lost.

[Jim Acosta]

I remember when Bush called Clinton the shadow, didn't he call him the shadow? The shadow hanging over. And then you work for somebody who was. Who I think is one of the most decent human beings I've ever covered in politics, Mitt Romney. And, you know, there's a tragedy here, there's a tragedy through all of this.

[Stuart Stevens]

There's no place for a Romney in the party. There's no place for a Cheney in the party. You know, I think it's a. It's a. It's a fascinating story that once you accept the unacceptable, it's just a slippery slope down, you know, from going from the outrage of Access Hollywood to accept supporting him, which people did within days, if they spoke out, that is a barrier, an exit ramp and gateway drug to saying Donald Trump won the 2020 election. Because once you're willing to say things and embody things you know are not true, you know, are in some way evil, then what's another? You know, you just keep saying it. And you know what? I think one great truth that Donald Trump realized about the Republican Party is that if he would give them power, everything that they believe, they would go against everything they said they believed, then that was the deal, the ultimate Faustian bargain. And he was right. And I think that's why he ran as a Republican, not as a Democrat. I mean, he'd been a lifelong Democrat, and he realized the Democratic Party, they wouldn't accept this. But I could do this in the Republican Party. And you know, if you go back to 16, Donald Trump has always benefited from the inability to imagine Donald Trump. All of those candidates, I mean, you covered this brilliantly. Were up there, those 15 other candidates beating the crap out of each other because all you wanted to do was get to be one on one with Donald Trump because the party was not going to vote for a guy that talked about dating his daughter. Don't be ridiculous. A micro casino guy, you know, and.

[Jim Acosta]

Then Trump just completely said, I'm not even going to participate in the debates in the 2024 campaign. And the party let him off the hook on that every step of the way.

[Stuart Stevens]

Yeah, I, you know, the reason I wrote this book called it was All a Lie.

[Jim Acosta]

You know, great book.

[Stuart Stevens]

No, there was a group in my world of Bush world when Trump first emerged and won that they wanted to say that Trump hijacked the party. I never got this because like the hijacker is not popular on the plane. Nobody goes like, hey, we're not going to go to grandma's, we're going to Cuba. Fantastic. Great beaches. Wait, you know, and Donald Trump was wildly popular. And there's nothing today that stops any of these people from going in front of a microphone and saying, no, enough. This is it.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah.

[Stuart Stevens]

And you know, you have a situation where the Vice President, United States, just think about this, is sitting around in his office, 2900 pages of, of just the most awful, horrible, ugly, anti Semitic racist chats between, you know, human beings in their 20s and 30s. Right. These, you know, old enough to be elected to the Senate. I mean, you know, these are not children. These are not just a bunch of kids. This isn't a dorm room discussion, you know, while everybody's like drunk or stoned. These are adults, some office holders. And so what's fascinating about this, not that that happened, but that J.D. vance was sitting around his office and said, you know, somebody's got to stand up for Nazis and I'm going to go be the guy. It's incredible.

[Jim Acosta]

And you got the Heritage foundation sticking up for Tucker Carlson.

[Stuart Stevens]

Tucker Carlson, a 911 truther, a Russian shill. And so why does J.D. vance do that? You know, J.D. vance is nothing if not a crafty opportunist who is willing to remake himself as whatever he needs to be at that moment. He thinks to advance himself when it was convenient to be, you know, this, this self invented Appalachian hillbilly. Fine, I'll be that. Better to be a global tech advisor with Peter Thiel. Fine, I'll be that. You know, I'll live in San Francisco. I'll be that. Now. Now he's this moves back to Ohio. I'm going to be this. The reason he did it is because he felt without some good cause that he could advance himself in the party by defending Nazis, that the litmus test in the party had become who can be more transgressive. I'm going to say more and more nasty stuff and no enemies to my right. And I'm not going to have any sense of shame. I'm not going to have any sense of decency, any sense of, of what this says about me. And this is how you, and you know, is anybody in the, in the Republican Party going to really speak out about this? And I, I don't. I really wonder.

[Jim Acosta]

And that leads me to this question, which is, is there an exit ramp for the Republican Party or is this now Thelma and Louise time? Yeah, they're going off.

[Stuart Stevens]

I mean, look, there are thousands of hours of video and thousands of photographs that the FBI seized with Epstein. And I do think there's some possibility that if one of those was so undeniable and so grotesque, and I'm sure they existed at one point, then that might be enough. But short of that, no, this is what the party wants to be. The party never cared about family values.

[Jim Acosta]

Well, yeah. And that's what you've written brilliantly about in your book. It was all a lie. Was that, is that, that, that in particular was one of the biggest lies.

[Stuart Stevens]

Yeah.

[Jim Acosta]

At the foundation of it all being a lie. And you know, the question that, that comes to my mind is, you know, there, and you know this as a strategist, campaign strategist, when you don't have control of the information, when you don't have a lid on what could come out. When I was talking to Robert Garcia earlier today, he was saying there's more coming out, that they had to go to the Epstein estate to get this stuff, the stuff that was brought out today. And so there are other avenues for investigators to retrieve and obtain information other than going through Cash Patel and Pam, Bonnie and the corrupt people over at the FBI, the Justice Department, which is a terrible place to be if you're the White House. If you're somebody who's hog tied himself to Donald Trump. It's a terrible place to be.

[Stuart Stevens]

Yeah. And you know, can we just pause for a minute and think about this? The President's personal criminal attorney, just President United States has a personal criminal attorney who, you know, think about that. You Know.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. And Blanche, we're talking about Todd Blanchard.

[Stuart Stevens]

You know, who lost 30, who lost 34. Case in which his client was convicted of 34 felonies, gets on a plane, flies and meets with the most notorious pedophile alive today. Maxwell.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah.

[Stuart Stevens]

And when you read that transcript, it is just sickening the way that he is. It's. I, I don't understand. This is like so clearly coaxing a witness, not loading.

[Jim Acosta]

Leading the way, romancing the witness.

[Stuart Stevens]

Yes, yes. And yeah. What happens? She gets to move to a club fet where she can take yoga lessons and have a dog. So this is part the party is protect. It's. And, and she's clearly negotiating for pardon.

[Jim Acosta]

Right.

[Stuart Stevens]

And she clearly knows stuff that is negotiating for pardon. And you know, what was Donald Trump's reaction when she was arrested on the record at the podium in the White House? I wish her well.

[Jim Acosta]

I wish her well.

[Stuart Stevens]

I mean, you know, it is one of these moments that we've, we've known over and over and over again where you look at it and you go, why didn't this end it? Why didn't it end it when he made, you know, mocked a disabled reporter. Why when he, he said that John McCain wasn't a hero. Why when all of this stuff.

[Jim Acosta]

Insurrection. Yeah.

[Stuart Stevens]

And then the most egregious is the insurrection. And this is what you end up with. And it is a. But people forget, you know, about Mesotopheles is not only takes your soul, he doesn't deliver. And that I think is what, you know, you began to see last Tuesday where Trump can't save these people. And he's pushed the party to a point where who is the politics takes a message and a messenger. What is the message they have that is appealing and who is the messenger? I mean, they were, they did have immigration, but they've just taken it to this point with this sort of comic book ghoul of Stephen Miller where, you know. Yeah, I, I, you know, I really don't think you could go to the reddest county and at the, at the Kiwanis Club, they would feel good about watching video of mothers being dragged from their cars and children being zip tied.

[Jim Acosta]

That's right.

[Stuart Stevens]

You know, with, by masked men.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah.

[Stuart Stevens]

And I think that's right underwater on immigration.

[Jim Acosta]

And look, I, and how is that video going to feel five years from now, 10 years from now, if Trump blows himself up, as we now see it, potentially happening, maybe sooner rather than later. And, and they look at this video of all of these horrendous things that he talked the party into doing, like, you know, pepper spraying babies in the face. Like that happened the other day. And, and driving off with the kid in the car that happened the other day. How is all that going to feel? How's that all going to go down?

[Stuart Stevens]

You know, this has been one of.

[Jim Acosta]

My great.

[Stuart Stevens]

Questions I've asked because, you know, I know I helped elect some of these people. You know, getting elected to the US Senate is a real pain in the ass. You have to go through a lot of degrading stuff, meet a lot of people you rather not meet. You have to beg for money. Okay. Finally you get elected. And what do you. You're there so you can do whatever Donald Trump tells you. Really? That was. Made it all worthwhile. And you know, most of these politicians, they have.

[Jim Acosta]

Being a center is supposed to be cool. You're not supposed. It means you're kind of above that. Yeah.

[Stuart Stevens]

You know, what's, what's the reward here?

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah.

[Stuart Stevens]

And the most politicians have really big egos, which. It's great. I mean, so do. God knows, writers do. So do, you know, athletes, artists. We haven't shot anybody all day for that. But go to the point you say, why is it that their ego checks in? How is this going to be seen? And it's not just Epstein, it's all of this. It's the denial of the election. It's the horrible ice mass thugs out there. How is this going to be not 10 years from now, but how is it going to look? And you know what I've said to the few people that will still talk to me, an ever decreasing number is this is segregation. And you know, nobody remembers Mississippi Senator Jim Eastland, my former senator, for, you know, the roads that he built or that bridge. They remember him because he was a segregationist.

[Eric Swalwell]

Yeah.

[Stuart Stevens]

And that they are going to be Trumpist and that's what they're going to be remembered for.

[Jim Acosta]

And we should note just the last few minutes, Adelita Grialva, she has been sworn in as a member of Congress. She's now a member of Congress.

[Stuart Stevens]

It's shocking. She won.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. Six or seven weeks ago. I know. It almost seems like we're reporting on the, like a former Soviet Union.

[Eric Swalwell]

Yeah.

[Stuart Stevens]

This is a news item.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. It's like, wow, democracy has come back to America.

[Stuart Stevens]

You know, we're like, they got to be sworn in.

[Jim Acosta]

Wow.

[Stuart Stevens]

I know. That still happened.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. God, you're right. It does sound bizarre world.

[Stuart Stevens]

It goes to the normalization here that, that we slowly Began to accept. You know, Joyce Vance just published a brilliant book where she talks about this. How the decline of democracy becomes normalized in these smaller, small steps. And, you know, I think about my dad, he was an FBI agent. The idea that he would go out of the house and put on a mask and run around and zip tie children and to have a boss like Cash Patel, I mean, Cash Patel, you know, I mean, and Cash Patel. We forgot about Don Bongino because Cash Patel is so bad. Yeah, Don Bongino. I don't understand how the guy gets through tsa, all the alarms, like, what a weirdo. Wait a second. Come into this room and let's have a conversation.

[Jim Acosta]

Well, and, but, you know, I've talked about this before. The reason why Trump has these people there who don't belong there is because they'll do his bidding. And he needs those. They're so damaged goods. They can't get these kinds of gigs and in any other way unless they go work for him. And when they get there, he's got them.

[Stuart Stevens]

It's a greatly, you know, he had to be inside the party. But all, all these people around Trump, it's not like they woke up in 2015 and said, you know, it'd be interesting to get involved in presidential politics. They all wanted to before. We just wouldn't let them in. I mean, Kellyanne Conway, really, You don't kill anything, really? No, I don't think so.

[Jim Acosta]

You know Corey Lewandowski?

[Stuart Stevens]

Corey Lewandowski, you know, I asked, you know, once, you know, a few years ago, he said, well, you know, I know Corey. I go, what? How do you know him? And he goes, well, he was a part time Marine officer in New Hampshire and he had to inspect my boat. I said, well, what did you think? And he goes, well, he pass my vote. That's Corey Lewandowski, who was famous in political circles when he was a staffer at New Hampshire Republican Party. He had the brilliant idea of debating a cutout of a Democratic gubernatorial candidate. And the consensus was to cut out one. And Steve Bannon, Steve Bannon, I mean.

[Jim Acosta]

He wears those three shirts with the three pens.

[Stuart Stevens]

You know, he wanted to be involved in the making of films that we did for the Bush campaign. And all of these people, Gorka, they're just, you know, they're just freaks. And he let them in and they know that they can't have any other, like, position. It's a, it's a mobster management theory. Yeah, that, you know, get in my mob and, you know, you'll get what falls off the truck. And otherwise, you know, you'd either be in jail or you'd be working some minimum wage job.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. And I think in getting back to the here and now, the next 48, 72 hours are going to be so interesting. Does a Republican go by the wayside and doesn't go along with this discharge petition? What is this process going to look like if it does pass? Does the White House say, you know, we're not going to give you that anyway? Well, you know, this is this. If it starts to feel a little Nixon, end of days.

[Stuart Stevens]

Yeah. You know, if I was advising Democratic elected officials, I would say I would load up a plane and I would fly to Louisiana and I would stand in front of Mike Johnson's church and demand that he help reveal who. The greatest pedophile scandal of our time. I mean, this is someone, his wife works for this church as a business there. This is someone who this, you know, confront it, make them see it, make them eat it. Because there's not really anybody going to that church that wants to protect pedophiles except for Mike Johnson. And Unreal, you know, stick it, make them eat it. And it's.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah, there's really no other choice at this point but to rub their noses.

[Stuart Stevens]

In, rub their nose. Like, this is who you are.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah.

[Stuart Stevens]

And if you accept it, you're not. I think it would be effective because I, I still think that there's an element of peer pressure. You know, there was that case where, you know, the head of ice, Tom Holman, in the small town, he lives in an upstate New York ICE went in, grabbed a guy who was a much loved member of the community, and his neighbors, and this is a small town, were outraged by it. And this guy was released. You know, he has to live in that town or wants to live in that town. That's where he grew up. And I think these things matter. And you have to really personalize this stuff because these aren't big policy questions. This isn't like, you know, should capital gains be 32% or 28% or 50 year mortgages? Yeah, 50. These are fundamental issues of right and wrong. I just.

[Jim Acosta]

It's about what Joe Biden used to talk about, the soul of America.

[Stuart Stevens]

Yeah, it is. It is. It is the soul of America. And the idea that this, it's what, you know, the Guthrie family saying, you know, this isn't a political issue. This isn't about one party or the partisan issue. How could it be a partisan issue? And I don't know, you know, I mean, I've known John Thune since he was executive director of the Republican Party in South Dakota. Great guy. You know, he wouldn't have let Jeffrey Epstein in his house, you know, and yet he's going along with this, really. So I think it's a moral parable. And there is a great lesson for us, and that is, once that you begin to accept the unacceptable, where do you stop?

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah, that's right. And when you mentioned John Thune, it makes me think of Howard Baker, who famously, he was the one who went to Nixon and said, it's. It's over, it's done.

[Stuart Stevens]

Lost it. Yeah. You know, you go back and you look at that and you look at those hearings which actually did the other day. It's. It's like artifacts from a lost civilization. You know, it's like watching the Mayans or something, like, go through rituals. Like there really were people like this in both parties that would do this, that, you know, cared enough. And I. Those days are. Those days are gone.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Stuart Stevens]

But, you know, I hope, I hope, I hope the truth will come out here and that enough Republicans can keep enough pressure. You know, self preservation is better than anyone. Covering a million politicians is the ultimate motivator in politics. And to the degree that they have to defend this.

[Jim Acosta]

You know, usually they're behind them until they're not.

[Stuart Stevens]

Yeah, exactly.

[Jim Acosta]

And we all get to watch. We all get to watch. Stu, great to see, as always. I wish we did it every day. Day, but that would drive you nuts. But it means a lot that you come on.

[Stuart Stevens]

And I love hanging out. I love what you're doing. I watch it all the time and keep it out there, man.

[Jim Acosta]

Thanks, man. We'll do it.

[Stuart Stevens]

All right.

[Jim Acosta]

Good to see you. Thank you so much. Stuart Stevens, Great. Stuart Stevens, author of the book It Was All a Lie. And, and he has others, too, folks. And, you know, Stu is an important guest in this moment. And, you know, Trump and the Republicans, they go off on the, the never Trump Republicans. And, you know, I used to hear this in corporate media. You know, you guys don't have enough Republicans on. You should have more Republicans on. I, I say I have Republicans on. They just happen to not like Donald Trump. And I have Republicans on all the time on this show. They just happen to not like Donald Trump. They happen to care about this country. They, they happen to care about the Constitution. They happen to care about our democracy. And it wasn't that long ago Stu was talking about watching the Watergate tapes as if you're looking at a different civilization. And that, that, I think that is true. But it should also be pointed out that Barack Obama and John Boehner, for example, had a pretty darn good relationship. People don't realize that we were told this after the fact. They would fight like hell in front of the cameras. But then. But they were friends. They got along with one another. Ronald Reagan, Tib o'. Neill, another famous relationship across partisan lines. Republicans and Democrats can coexist. And I know it sounds insane to hear those words coming out of my mouth. Modern day Republican Party can take a hell of a lot of work for us to get back to that point. But when one party gets behind a wannabe dictator, a wannabe authoritarian who is morally bankrupt, who is now surfacing in emails in the most ungodly ways possible, this is a wake up call. This is a wake up call to anybody. Mayday, mayday. Sos. Is there anybody in the Republican Party? Blink twice if you hear me. It is time to come home. It is time to come back to America. It is time to come back to the real world. It is time to leave Donald Trump's side. It is time to come back to America's side. And the question that you have to ask yourselves in this moment, at this critical time is do you want to attach yourself to the Titanic? I was. The Titanic was on tv. I turned it on for a few minutes and I watched. And I'm thinking to myself, my God, these poor people. Republicans right now have a choice. They don't have to board the Titanic. They don't have to figure out whether or not there are enough lifeboats. They don't have to figure out whether the water will be warm enough. Won't have to worry about any of that. They have time to not board the Titanic. Some of them. We all know. We all know who they are. They're gonna get on that goddamn Titanic even if they know it's going down. But one has to think there are enough of them. Goes back to what Stu was saying about self preservation. Who at least think about it from their own standpoint and want to save their own ass. And do you really want to go down with this guy? Do you really want to go down with him? Because this ship sure as hell looks like it's going down. May not be right now, but when the email from 2011, I repeat, the email from 2011 says that the dog that hasn't barked is Trump. Victim spent hours at my house with him. He has never once been mentioned. Police chief, etc GHISLAINE maxwell, I have been thinking about that. The White House tried. Donald Trump is going to try. There is no way to make this work for him. Go through the other emails, go through the other documents, the birthday letter and go, it goes on and on and on. And look at what they're doing today. CAROLINE levin oh, no, no. This shows that he didn't do anything. And yet the White House is trying to talk Lauren Boebert into not going along with the discharge petition at some point. It's as plain as the nose on your face. It's, it's as plain as the Titanic sitting at the dock, the foghorn going off, the signal going to the masses that it's about to pull out to see who's going to get on board because that ship sure as hell looks like it's going down. My thanks to Congressman Eric Swalwell, my thanks to Stuart Stevens. My thanks to all of you. A programming note and 30 minutes from now, we're going to do another special edition of this program, but in coordination and in partnership with my friend Miles Taylor, who has started up a very important organization called Defiance, he is brought to bear for this effort some very important people, including acting legend Robert De Niro, who I spoke with. And we're going to play a little bit of that conversation. And Miles has some other terrific guests lined up. We have former Congressman Joe Walsh, we have former Congressman Dick Gephardt, lots of others lined up to speak with us. That's in 30 minutes from now, 5 o' clock Eastern on all of our channels, substack, YouTube, etc, and so however you watch us, make sure you tune in for that. But in the meantime, thanks everybody for watching earlier this morning during our special live coverage with Congressman Robert Garcia, Katie Fang and Ryan Lizza. In the meantime, still reporting from Washington, I'm going to go to Drink of Water, Pet Duke and take a break. I'll see you in about 30 minutes from now. Still reporting from Washington, I'm Jim Acosta. See you soon, Sam Sa.