← The Jim Acosta Show
The Jim Acosta Show
Anand Giridharadas on Trump betraying his own voters and Aaron Parnas on Trump's bullying tactics at Harvard.
00:57:33
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- [00:00]
Jim Acosta
All right, welcome, everybody, to the Jim Acosta show. It is Thursday. I like to call it Friday Eve. That means we're just getting the party started. Anand Girdhas is with us. He's back on the program. Anand, great to see you again. And I just want to jump right into this because this news on Harvard, I think, is hitting everybody like a two by four. I mean, Trump's war on his perceived enemies continues. He campaigned on revenge and retribution. He's delivering on that promise. Today, it's academia. New York Times reporting that the Trump administration halted Harvard's ability to enroll international students, taking aim at a crucial funding source for Harvard. And Reuters is reporting this. This is a wrinkle to it that I think is very disturbing. It is forcing. The administration is forcing existing students, this is, according to Reuters, to transfer to other schools or lose their legal status. This is according to the Department of Homeland Security. And now we should just jump right into this. I mean, this is what Trump is doing. This is part of his campaign of retribution and revenge. It's also about trying to make people afraid, put fear in people's hearts. What's your take on all of this?
- [01:08]
Anand Giridharadas
Well, a few things. I mean, first of all, you're right, we talk about Trump as an authoritarian. People throw around, as I have for some time now, words like fascist, but, you know, he's doing a range of things. And his, his budget is one thing and, and Doge is another thing. When you talk about going after one specific university.
- [01:28]
Jim Acosta
Yes.
- [01:29]
Anand Giridharadas
And revoking or threatening to revoke visas for students at that one university because that university didn't comply with you, and doing it not for people going forward, but so that people now in that university might be thrown out or arrested or whatever. That is authoritarianism. So if you are one of these people who's like, well, Jim's using that word too much, or Anand's using that word too much, or Ruth Ben Giott and Michael Cohen, whoever else is using that word too much. Well, here is something that is hard to think about happening. Can you just think about a moment where any American president has had any policy with regard to one specific university of any kind? Any kind of policy. Right. So just that this is, this is what authoritarianism looks like. Your family comes from Cuba. This is the kind of thing that is common in places like Cuba or North Korea, not common here. You know, and I want to jump.
- [02:24]
Jim Acosta
In and say to hell with these people who are, who are poo, pooing the idea all over the idea that this is Authoritarianism. Up yours. I'm sorry. This is what Donald Trump is doing. He's going after Harvard. A federal judge apparently has just blocked the administration from terminating the legal statuses of international students at universities across the U.S. we'll see if that affects or impacts the Harvard situation. But I didn't mean to interrupt, but that's what this is. You're absolutely right.
- [02:53]
Anand Giridharadas
The specificity, the kind of personal thing. I will say I am in this country because my father actually left India to go to Harvard as an international student. Wow. So to think about, by the way, he came here because of currency restrictions at the time, with $7 in his pocket because India didn't allow you to take more money than that. Could you imagine people in those kinds of situations? You know, Harvard, at one level, you think about Harvard, you think about a very privileged place. You think about, you know, people who maybe you don't need to worry about and cry over the way you might. People for whom Medicaid is being cut, for example. However, it is worth noting that when you think of international students at Harvard and a certain special role they play, which is that Harvard educates a lot of people from other countries who sometimes stay here and sometimes go back to those countries and play really important roles there, right?
- [03:56]
Aaron Parnas
Absolutely.
- [03:57]
Anand Giridharadas
So you think about the most promising scientists from Sierra Leone, right? Who? I mean, I knew someone like this when I was in grad school there. This guy was at mit, but he, um, you know, brilliant young scientists from Sierra Leone. Sierra Leone did a civil war. Lots of people lost their limbs. This guy was like, I'm going to invent a new kind of prosthetic limb to. Because my country's full of people who need this now. Sadly, he couldn't stay in Sierra Leone and solve that. He needed to have access to the labs and technologies of the most sophisticated universities in the world to solve a problem. Like lots of limbless people in Sierra Leone. So he came, lived in Cambridge, was at mit, involved in these. In these kinds of programs, goes back and does that, right? There are people who are in Parliament in countries around the world, in countries that are maybe have illiberal tendencies. They come here, they read Plato, and they go back to their country sometimes get, you know, so there's this disproportionate role. It's not, you know, just thinking about, like, rich kids or, you know, eating clubs or whatever there is when it comes to international students. You think about the Chinese send a lot of international students to Harvard. Now, that's an authoritarian country. That's been really hard to crack with liberal ideas. Well, you're, you have, you know, you have lots and lots of the Chinese elite coming here and they're reading, they're reading certain books, they're exposed to freedom.
- [05:26]
Jim Acosta
They'Re exposed to democracy. And then they go back and they take those lessons back.
- [05:30]
Anand Giridharadas
And lots of examples of that. We have lots of world leaders who've kind of had that experience. So it's worth understanding what's being done. But I will say a third thing, and I don't say this to build up President Trump at all. In a way, it's the biggest indictment. But he does have something that a lot of people on the political left lack, which is an actually shrewd understanding of the leverage points and pressure points of the American power elite. In a way, it's so insightful to go right at that thing of Harvard's international students. Right. If you want to even scare not just the American power elite, if you want to scare, scare the leadership of China, you cut off the ability of rich and powerful Chinese people to send their kids to Harvard specifically. Like, it is a great example of a really, in a way, small scale act on the grand scheme of the country that has this huge, huge demonstration effect. And so we need to understand his understanding of the power of symbolism and how he's working on these levels. And look, we need people to wake up and start fighting this stuff as the authoritarianism it is.
- [06:37]
Jim Acosta
Yeah. And it's time for college students to wake up. And obviously, part of why the Trump administration is doing this, part of why Trump is doing this, people like Stephen Miller, they're trying to intimidate kids on college campuses to not go out and speak their minds. These students need to understand that they are being challenged and bullied into silence, and they should not abide by that. It is time for an awakening, a reawakening on the college campuses to do some acts of civil disobedience. And I hope that we see that here in the coming weeks. Do it peacefully, do it respectfully, but make your voices heard. Don't be quiet, don't be bullied into silence. But I mean, Anand, you're absolutely right. And the other thing that comes to mind, and I've been thinking about this for some time, is it's clear in what Trump has been doing in this campaign of revenge and retribution. He thought about this while he was out of power. He thought about the targets he wanted to go after. And academia is one of those targets. And people like Stephen Miller and some of the people who work behind the scenes, they've clearly been crafting these kinds of areas of attack to bully and intimidate, areas where they know that there could be trouble for the administration when they try to carry out this authoritarian agenda, it seems like that's part of what we're seeing play out as well.
- [07:57]
Anand Giridharadas
I mean, the ridiculous asymmetry of American politics right now, and you've covered this long enough to know this intimately, is that the people who would wage war on our own people and our own institutions and our own ideals are unembarrassed about doing so. And those who actually want to help people and want to do good things for people are, like, shy about their own power and shy about, well, is that too far? Or, well, is that the right procedure? And so in this asymmetry where the people with good hearts who want to help people tie their own hands behind their back because they're not sure if it's been triple checked and fact checked, and all the lawyers at 52 agencies have approved, and the people who want to wreak havoc and slash Medicaid and gut food stamps, and I do want to get into that, have no fear, no imposter syndrome at all.
- [08:53]
Jim Acosta
I do want to get into that. The other, the flip side of this, though, is, and I talked about this with Ruth Ben Guillot the other day, is that coupled with the slow, creeping authoritarianism is the corruption that is what you see in these kinds of regimes around the world. And Trump is marching us in that direction. And tonight he's going to host this exclusive dinner at his golf club outside of Washington in Virginia. 220 of the largest investors in his meme coin are going to have this private audience with the President. A lot of these people bought these meme coins, made these investments on foreign exchanges and so on. And so, I mean, you can ask, you know, you want to raise questions about the Chinese sending their kids to Harvard. What the hell's going on with Trump meme coin purchases and the way they're being purchased around the world. But, I mean, Anand, you know, that to me is one of the hallmarks of what Trump is trying to do in this country right now is just this, this corruption that just seems, this, this, this, this corruption racket that seems to have no end, whether it's the Qataris with the plane and, and this crypto stuff, he's just doing it brazenly out in the open.
- [10:04]
Anand Giridharadas
You're a good friend and mine. Ruth Ben Ghiat and I had this conversation a few weeks ago. Also, and one of the things that came out of it was, and really helped clarify my thinking on this, is that authoritarianism enables corruption, which is sort of obvious, but it works the other way around, too. Corruption is part of establishing the authoritarian project, which is less obvious, which is to say, if I come home from work every day and kind of piss on your lawn, I'm demonstrating. And if nothing happens to me the first day, the second day, you don't do anything. You're too scared. Part of the power becomes the act. Right. So the status allows the act, but the act entrenches the status. And so he is not just profiting from his authoritarian attempt, but he is using flagrant instances of theft, unnecessary. You don't need to take this plane. It's so dumb. You don't need to do the meme coin. I mean, even he doesn't need the money in any kind of narrow sense. I'm not even sure it's actually for the money. I think it is about something actually much more dangerous, which is demonstrating and flexing impunity and the fact that it gets him rich also. He likes that.
- [11:21]
Jim Acosta
But I know, I like, I like that. I like that interpretation. I mean, I also talked about this with Ruth, and I also think it's about building out a corporate oligarchy in this country that will insulate and protect them and make it more difficult to dislodge them from power. I mean, I do worry about that, too, but I think people.
- [11:39]
Anand Giridharadas
The worse you treat people.
- [11:41]
Jim Acosta
Yeah.
- [11:42]
Anand Giridharadas
As a leader, surely you imagine in your head, no matter how powerful you are, how it could end. Surely it runs through your head, these pictures that we all know from history. Right. Your family would have known it from Cuba in the 50s of a leader fleeing in the middle of the night of a helicopter taking off, of not knowing where Ashraf Ghani is or not knowing where leaders in Iraq or Vietnam are. Right. Surely if you're a Putin or an Erdogan or a Trump or an Assad in Syria, surely it's on your mind that given how you have treated people, if you don't cling to power and if you don't have billions of dollars and lots of, you know, maybe your own plane, that it could end badly for you. And so it's this strange thing where the more powerful you, the more power you kind of amass and then use it to abuse people, the more of an anxiety of power you actually have. Right. If you think of an Obama OR A George H.W. bush, I don't think they were afraid the terrible, terrible thing that was gonna end terribly for them, that would end in mayhem and violence. But if you live the way Donald Trump has or Putin has or Erdogan has, it probably occurs to you that if you don't amass a kind of war chest of money and planes and cronies and places you could hide and land somewhere that some billionaire will stash you on, it could end really badly for you because you fear the tables turning.
- [13:19]
Jim Acosta
Yeah, yeah. He doesn't want to end up like Saddam Hussein in the spider hole, I guess. Is that. Is that what happened to Saddam? And we have to jump to this Saddam, because you brought up a couple of times, I mean, Trump wants to sign into law what could be the largest transfer of wealth in American history. The Atlantic writes that House Republicans work through the night. It's a massive piece of legislation that might, if enacted, carry out the largest upward transfer of wealth in American history. I do think that is something that people should be focused on, you know, this idea that they're going to give these huge tax breaks to the wealthy and to corporations, and meanwhile, they're going to do a reverse Obamacare. They're going to strip millions of people of their health care. Forget about the old days during the first Trump administration where they tried in vain to kill Obamacare, and then John McCain came out and gave the thumbs down. They're going to do this in a slow, creeping kind of way where they're just going to make it impossible to fund these programs because they've given so much money away to their buddies via tax cuts.
- [14:17]
Anand Giridharadas
Yeah. And what's really interesting about this is, you know, you and I know that Donald Trump doesn't respect you and me. He doesn't respect what we do. He thinks we're enemies of the people. Fine. I have no problem. What's interesting and revealed by this budget is that he deeply disrespects his own voters. His voters disproportionately live in rural America. If any of you are watching this, you. His voters disproportionately live in rural America. You know, therefore, that Medicaid, for example, holds up so much of the infrastructure of rural healthcare in this country, rural hospitals in this country, big time.
- [14:57]
Jim Acosta
He does part of Obamacare. Yeah.
- [15:00]
Anand Giridharadas
He doesn't respect you. He doesn't respect. Forget whether he respects Jim and me. He doesn't respect his own voters. And he is gambling his presidency and his life on the idea that his supporters are stupid. And I actually don't believe they're stupid. He thinks they're stupid. I actually don't believe they're stupid.
- [15:19]
Jim Acosta
No, I agree.
- [15:20]
Anand Giridharadas
He's lost a bunch of them already. I think people roll the dice with him. I think people are not ready to have airplanes stolen from the Pentagon. I don't think people are ready to have their VA benefits imperiled. I don't think they're ready to have their rural hospitals taken out. I actually think there's some Christians in this country who may not rely on food stamps themselves, who actually don't like the idea of food stamps being taken from others because they actually cracked open their Bible more than once.
- [15:51]
Jim Acosta
True.
- [15:52]
Anand Giridharadas
I would not bet on the stupidity of Trump's voters the way Trump seems to bet on the stupidity of his voters.
- [15:59]
Jim Acosta
Yeah, I was with him in 2016 after the Nevada caucus when he said, I love low information voters. I mean, he literally said that and he is counting on that. You're absolutely right. That's a very good insight. And I've said on this program a million times, and people who watch and listen are going to say, okay, Jim, said this before, but every, every Trump rally is within five miles of Walmart. It's almost, you can almost bet money on it that that's the case. Those folks who shop at those Walmarts, because as we all know, Walmart has cleaned out the downtowns of so many towns in America. You know, those folks are going to feel the impact of the tariffs and of the mass deportation roundups and so on. The other aspect of this is, and I've been to these rallies and seen a lot of elderly people. I mean, Trump's basis is very, you know, much in the, in the senior citizen demographic. And those folks are going to possibly feel Medicare cuts. I mean, he promised time, again, not to touch Medicare. It depends on how this thing is scored ultimately when it comes out of the Senate. But there may be, you know, sequestration mechanisms that go into effect that result in Medicare being cut back. And we know Medicaid, you know, a lot of folks out there may not understand the difference between Medicare and Medicaid. Medicaid, which is the procedure, healthcare program for the poor, is going to be facing major cuts. And you're absolutely right. Rural hospitals depend on Medicaid to stay alive in so many different parts of the country, in a lot of red states, big time.
- [17:25]
Anand Giridharadas
Here are, in a way, the two interlocking tragedies or ironies or ironic tragedies of this, of this Trump presidency. He is to be given some credit for identifying areas of American life where there was a kind of elite consensus on not telling people the truth. I think trade is an area where you could say that's the case. I think government efficiency is an area where you could say that's the case. I think foreign aid is an area where you could say that's the case. The first part of that tragedy is having identified those areas and built some support by saying things about those things that no one else would say, he entered those areas and just made all of them worse and made people's lives harder in the way he went about it. The second related tragedy is that he's a populist wannabe. Populist. Calls himself populist, kind of falls into the tradition of populism around the world, who has quite uniquely pursued and focused on incredibly unpopular things in these first four months. And that really strikes me as quite interesting and different. If you think about Narendra Modi and Indyar others, there's at least an attempt to say, look, I'm trying this authoritarian thing. I'm tough in all these ways. I'm going to do a bunch of, bunch of stuff that people love, that they see, that they see in their town. Narendra Modi is doing like village cleanups in India. Clean the toilets. People are like, wow, this country is like finally looking a little clean. They give them a little space to do some bad shit. Well, this guy, it's just fascinating. He's doing a form of authoritarianism that goes after the portfolios of his own supporters that threatens the cheap goods that they get from those Walmarts. Walmart alone, the company of Walmart's trade with China alone is more than most countries trade with China.
- [19:18]
Jim Acosta
It's true. That's right.
- [19:20]
Anand Giridharadas
So it goes after their ability to buy stuff at Walmart. He's going after their VA benefits. Right. Saving grace is not quite the right term here, but I do think at some level we may be spared the worst kind of history authoritarianism we've seen in history. Because this guy's so bad at it.
- [19:40]
Jim Acosta
He's bad at it. And the other thing too is in this big, beautiful blunder of a bill, you know, he will say, oh, well, we got no tax on tips and that sort of thing. If you look at the no tax on tips policy, okay, there might be some, some servers at restaurants who benefit, but the dishwashers don't. The guys in the kitchen cooking the food don't. They're worried about getting rounded up by Ice Agen and masks. And so his, his program Picks winners and losers. And that is such a Trump tell. And the other thing is, I mean I've often thought he's not a very good poker player because yesterday he picks a fight with the South African president, a race based, race baiting fight with the South African president because he knows that's what's going to penetrate on the evening newscast and that's what's going to penetrate on the cable newscast. Not this, you and I dissecting this mega bill that is basically a giveaway to the rich on the backs of the poor on, on, on the backs of Trump supporters.
- [20:42]
Anand Giridharadas
But he's doing in, in that way, he is absolutely tapping into something that will be red meat for a white, white meat for some of his base. But, but he, he's making a fundamental error, which is that if you look at how people have voted in the last several elections, there has been a repeated rejection of people and parties and leaders who seem consumed by a bunch of things that seemed really remote from what was going on in people's lives. Sometimes that hurt Republicans, sometimes that's hurt Democrats. Right. And having actually won an election because Democrats were perceived as being a little out of touch with some of those lived realities and getting into issues that were like eight steps away from those things with some truth to that critique, he's not doing the same thing.
- [21:34]
Jim Acosta
Yeah.
- [21:35]
Anand Giridharadas
Who is this for? Like Tim Walls asked us in the last campaign, like, who's this stuff for?
- [21:40]
Jim Acosta
I don't know. I don't know. A lot of it is to provide cover, I think for the corrupt authoritarianism. I think that's he designs this stuff and then he comes up with these gimmicks like the border wall, the no tax on tips because it sounds good in a sound bite, looks good on a bumper sticker, but it's cover for the ultimate goal, which is to push America into a place that it has never been before and to become a place that has never been before. I do want to get into some of the things you've been writing about on Substack Anon because I think it's so smart. It sounds like you want some more self examination and self reflection from Democrats, which they said they were going to do but they haven't really done. And you wrote after once was heralded as a wake up call. I saw instead in so many quarters human qualities that make reckoning all but impossible. Defensiveness and curiosity, touchiness, the inability to see oneself as others see you. Certitude in the name of so called moral clarity, smugness Condescension, blame casting, deflection, and a total rejection of introspection. Anand, don't beat around the bush here. Get right to it. What are you saying here?
- [22:45]
Anand Giridharadas
This is why I became a writer. Look, you know, it occurred to me a couple weeks ago, I was actually on a long flight back from London where Tina Brown had this journalism summit and thinking about the summit and these conversations I'd had among a bunch of journalistic leaders, and on the flight back, I realized it's been exactly six months that week. It was exactly six months since Trump's victory. And that got me thinking, okay, six months ago, where were we all? And it suddenly came back to me that that week, that month, there was suddenly, okay, well, this is a terrible. People want to funk. And then after the funk, there was like, okay, we got to rethink some things. This Democratic Party's got to rethink itself. I heard a lot of my, you're in. My friends in the media say we in the media are missing big parts of reality. We got to figure out how to cover this guy better than we covered him the first time. There were so many promises in those opening weeks of, okay, we got to become adequate to this moment in a way, we weren't the first time. Lessons learned the first time. Let's look within. And I, over the last six months, as I'm sure you have been, have ended up in the room or in conversations with people privately, sometimes publicly, who were engaged in the kinds of spaces where that reckoning was like attempting was allegedly occurring. Right. I've been, I've gotten calls from DNC people being like, what do you think we should do? As I'm sure lots of people have, I have been in progressive movement further to the left, progressive movement gatherings about how do we rethink the movement, how do we build a commanding majority. I've talked to individual Democratic leaders. I've had conversations, as you have with press people. And I was sitting there on the plane thinking, if I really think back to all those rooms I was in, all those conversations, I was in the overwhelming impression of this six months of promised reckoning was the reckoning that wasn't. No one reckoned everyone.
- [24:45]
Jim Acosta
Where's the reckoning?
- [24:46]
Anand Giridharadas
Where's the reckoning? That list of characteristics and, and not to put too fine a point in it, but what if, you know, as you may have heard in that list of traits, it struck me that whether it's a Democratic Party that refuses to look at itself or a press that refuses to look at itself, or a progressive movement that refused to look at stuff. They are. You. One becomes Trump, like, in one's opposition to Trump. That's the risk, right? The risk of era like this is that you become, like, the thing you oppose.
- [25:16]
Jim Acosta
Yeah, it's a great piece, and it's so smart. One of the things that I fear is that the reckoning that people had was done pretty, you know, I don't know, on the fly and not really well thought out. And the lesson that was, you know, learned and I guess manifested itself in the early days when Trump came back into office was that people in the press and the Democratic Party should just roll over. I mean, the press, you know, bending the knee and paying these ridiculous lawsuits and, I mean, give me a fucking break. I mean, honestly, it is just like, come on, this idea that we need to. We, Gosh, we need to figure out how to cover this guy better and so on. He's a liar. He's a bullshit artist. He's an authoritarian wannabe. End of story. We've known this for some time.
- [26:11]
Anand Giridharadas
And his attempt to ravage this country depends on powerful and influential people believing that he is who he says he is. And actually, if you don't believe it and don't participate in the charade of his power, it diminishes his power. If you told me when I was, you know, starting out in journalism and dreaming of nothing but a big job in a big place, you know, if you told me that you and I would be sitting, an ex CNN anchor, ex New York Times guys, sitting, talking on our phones, and that I would feel freer and more emboldened.
- [26:49]
Jim Acosta
I do, too.
- [26:50]
Anand Giridharadas
To say what I think in this form, I wouldn't have understood what you're talking about. I would have asked what an iPhone is. But it's incredible that we're now living in this moment in which these big institutions are too big, too scared to be bold, in a moment when boldness is the only thing that might save us.
- [27:08]
Jim Acosta
Yeah. And there are people in the Democratic Party who are pushing back and are putting on a hell of a show right now. And I think there's a lot to be admired with some of these folks. I really like the way that Chris Murphy has been taking people to the woodshed. I mean, there are just some people. I don't want to. If I start naming names, I won't name enough names, and people will be mad. But I. I do think there's some of that out there, and I think that they just want people to. I think Folks just want us people in the media, people in Democratic circles to have some goddamn balls and to have a, have a goddamn spine if balls don't count. James Carville used to have a line that if, you know, Hillary Clinton gave one of her balls to Obama, she'd still have two, you know, so there. And I know maybe Hillary Clinton's not the best example and James Carville is not the best example. You know, people are a little fed up or whatever. I, I still like James. But you know, there's a point there in that, you know, this weakness, this sort of weak, need, weak tea, weak sauce approach is not going to do, is not going to do anything and it's just going to embolden him and it's just going to make matters worse.
- [28:18]
Anand Giridharadas
So think about what you just said. You're absolutely right. There have been these examples. Chris Murphy, AOC and Bernie's fighting oligarchy. It's not about ideology. Right. There's some progressives like AOC and Bernie have done really interesting things with this fighting oligarchy tour. And the progressive end, Chris Murphy, more of a historic moderate, but now saying some more progressive things, he's doing it there. You've had Cory Booker, definitely more of a moderate guy on a lot of policy issues, but really galvanizing people with that incredible filibuster performance.
- [28:45]
Jim Acosta
Yeah.
- [28:46]
Anand Giridharadas
But what's interesting is, has the party noticed any of that? The way we all noticed that and said, okay, let's be nimble, you're now in leadership tomorrow. Cory Booker, that was an extraordinary moment. You're in this job that you didn't have before. This person is no longer in leadership. You know, Senator Booker did vote for.
- [29:06]
Jim Acosta
Kushner to be the ambassador of France. I mean, wonderful, wonderful. Not to, I don't want to start stuff, but I'm just saying, like, no, it's real.
- [29:15]
Anand Giridharadas
Look, I mean, this week we had a piece today in the ink by Amanda Lippman, who started Run for something. And she pointed out, she said this week, where we have the Biden book, that's obviously very controversial, you have the cancer diagnosis. It's very sad. And then you had this news of Representative Connolly from Virginia dying in office. One of the like several Democrats die in office. So she pointed out that aoc, by any stretch of imagination, the most impressive, dynamic, connective Democrat of the last many years, had made an attempt, had made an attempt to get a leadership position on the Oversight Committee, had run against this guy Connolly. And Democrats chose this 70 something year old guy who'd Been there forever. No one says, this guy's an exciting guy. No one's interested in this guy.
- [30:10]
Jim Acosta
Right. The democrats in the D.C. area, I will say, hell of a lawmaker in the D.C. area and knew how to bring home projects and serve as constituents. But go ahead.
- [30:20]
Anand Giridharadas
I don't like they literally chose over AOC a guy who then shortly thereafter died in office. Right. We wish his family well. Yeah, but I. I don't think the only way to be old when you've had a blessed career in public life is to cling and die with a gavel in your hand. I think it's actually more important to die with some remove from life, to go up the mountain to spend a little time with your grandkids, if you have them. Your children.
- [31:00]
Jim Acosta
Well, that's Potomac fever. You know, the previous congressman before Gerry Connolly or one of the previous congressmen before Jerry Connolly was a guy named Tom Davis. I only know this because I grew up in that district. I'm a Fairfax County, Virginia native. And Tom Davis used to have a saying that the only cure for Potomac fever is embalming fluid. And, you know, there is some truth to that, and it's. It's a truth that's stood the test of time. I mean, it's a tale as old as time here in Washington. But I do think that this moment is sort of calling for a changing of the guard. You know, as Kennedy said, you know, the torch needs to be passed to a new generation. And I think we're just seeing that happen in real time now. And maybe it'll happen organically, and maybe it's going to be messy, maybe it's going to be bumpy, but it needs to happen, because otherwise the folks at home are saying, I, I, you know, you're not giving me an alternative here. You know, I'm just going to go with the guy who tells stupid jokes, you know, and. And makes wisecracks that, you know, are probably better suited for the end of a. A bar somewhere.
- [32:04]
Anand Giridharadas
Yeah, I'm not a. I'm not a. I'm not a political scientist, but I, But I. But I do believe deeply that boring the living fuck out of people is not the actual secret to winning in general, not the special sauce defeating populist authoritarianism in particular.
- [32:22]
Jim Acosta
Well, Anand, great to talk to you. Really appreciate it. I'm gonna get to Aaron Farnas, because I've got to get to. I want to get the youths involved in this. Unfortunately, we used to be the youths. We're not the youth anymore.
- [32:34]
Anand Giridharadas
I know. My hair. My hair stopped being the youth like, 15 years ago.
- [32:38]
Jim Acosta
As somebody who thinks I do an okay job with my hair, it's just I. Whenever I have an undone, I'm like, you know, God damn it. The hair is just. It's just.
- [32:46]
Anand Giridharadas
Don't worry. It has a lot of haters. So can we tote it?
- [32:48]
Jim Acosta
Can we tone it down just a little? So I. I can't compete. This Cuban hair is trying again.
- [32:53]
Anand Giridharadas
I get hair hate mail literally almost every day.
- [32:56]
Jim Acosta
Oh, that's not right. Yeah.
- [32:58]
Anand Giridharadas
So it's always from Baldman.
- [32:59]
Jim Acosta
You're. Oh, yeah, of course. Well, you could donate some and probably, you know, win some. Yeah.
- [33:04]
Anand Giridharadas
I believe in redistribution. Yeah.
- [33:06]
Aaron Parnas
All right.
- [33:06]
Jim Acosta
Good to see you. Thanks.
- [33:07]
Anand Giridharadas
Good to see you. Thank you for having me.
- [33:09]
Jim Acosta
All right, Great to see you. All right. Great conversation. Anand is always great. I'm gonna bring in Aaron Parnas. Aaron is, you know, I tease a little bit when I say the youths, but he is the youths. And my God, if we. If we don't have young influencers like Aaron, you know, holding us accountable here, even guys like me, we're not getting the job done here. And there's Aaron right there. Hey, how you doing, Aaron?
- [33:36]
Aaron Parnas
Hey. Doing well. How are you?
- [33:37]
Jim Acosta
Good, good, good. I was just talking to Anand, and Anand and I both thought we were hot shit when we were your age, and now we're just. Now we're old. Now we're just old, beat up shit. But you're.
- [33:46]
Aaron Parnas
You're not old. You're not old.
- [33:47]
Anand Giridharadas
You're.
- [33:48]
Aaron Parnas
You're a youngin. Jim, I'm.
- [33:50]
Jim Acosta
I'm trying to hang in there, man. But listen, there's so much going on. I mean, there's a couple of things I want to get to. I talked about the big beautiful bill blunder, whatever you want to call it, with Anand. I do want to ask you, Aaron, I mean, do young people care about the deficit? I actually cared about the deficit when I was your age. And this is going to add $2.4 trillion over 10 years to the national debt, which already exceeds $36 trillion. Because of these debt worries, mortgage prices are going up, borrowing costs are going up. That affects guys like you. You want to buy a house, your friends want to buy their first house, buy a car, it's now more expensive. I mean, what gives? What do you think?
- [34:33]
Aaron Parnas
Yeah, I mean, Jim, I think the basic answer here is they don't care. And the reason why is because you're talking about buying a house. Right? We can't afford to Buy a house, Right. Because wages have remained stagnant for the past 30 years. Our student loans are out, are insane right now. People can't afford to live. Young people can't afford to get a good paying job or purchase their first home. So honestly, when they, when you talk about the deficit to a young person, they're like, what the hell is that? Because at the end of the day, we've been talking about this big boogeyman that is the deficit for years and, well, no one's done anything to change it, right? Like we talk about the deficit during the Obama years, then during the Trump first, then during the Biden years, and every single time it's like, well, vote me in because I'm going to fix the deficit. And while no one's fixing the deficit and the country still seems to be operating, so young people don't really care.
- [35:23]
Jim Acosta
Yeah, I get that. I know Bill Clinton, when he was president, he actually balanced the budget and it was historic and it was a big deal in Washington. He did it by raising taxes on the wealthy. I will say for folks who don't remember that little nugget. And what's Trump doing right now? He's exploding the deficit and cutting taxes for the wealthy on the backs of working class Americans. And Anand made a very good point earlier. It's almost as though Trump doesn't really give a shit what his base thinks or what they're going through or what they're about to go through, because they're gonna take a hit when it comes to their healthcare. They're gonna take a hit when it comes to inflation and borrowing costs on top of that. I mean, that's real stuff. And that is why there are people even inside the MAGA base who are saying this is going to sow the seeds of their political destruction come next year during the midterms.
- [36:14]
Aaron Parnas
Oh, for sure, 100%. But I will make one interesting point is that most people. I'm 26, right. I was born in Clinton's, I guess last year of his term. I don't remember the Clinton presence.
- [36:24]
Jim Acosta
I just had a heart attack. So did you. Have you ever watched the West Wing? Do you watch it on like.
- [36:30]
Aaron Parnas
No, I could. I. I can't watch old.
- [36:32]
Jim Acosta
Is it too corny?
- [36:35]
Aaron Parnas
It just doesn't work. But most people my age.
- [36:38]
Jim Acosta
Go ahead.
- [36:39]
Aaron Parnas
I don't even remember. The earliest presidential memory I truly remember was the First Trump election, 2016. Anything pre2016. Most folks my age don't remember and don't know. So when people are like, well, Bill Clinton balanced the budget great. I don't even remember. I don't know where I was on 9 11. That's just the truth of the matter. So, yeah, I mean, ultimately, I think this will spell the demise for Republicans in 2026, because I think that this will do what the health care battle in the first Trump administration really did to them when they try to cut the Affordable Care Act. I really think this is kind of the second coming to that. Right. They weren't able to do it then, but here I do think, I mean, for better or for worse, they will get some Medicaid cuts through once this passes the Senate. It's just a foregone conclusion. They have the votes at this point. So I think this will do. This will spark a real big uprising. And I really think that everyone talks about the blue wave every two years, but I really think 2026, you may actually see the blue wave that everybody's been waiting for.
- [37:41]
Jim Acosta
No, I think that's absolutely right. And it may start this fall. Abigail Spamberger, running for governor in Virginia. And so, I mean, the bellwether elections are coming. There's no question about it, for sure. I wanted to talk about the killing of this Israeli couple in Washington. The New York Times saying the slang of two Israeli embassy aides on Wednesday outside a Jewish museum in Washington was an extreme example of what law enforcement officials and others call a global surge and anti Semitic incidents that emerged after Hamas terrorists killed more than 1200 people on October 7th. If you see the pictures of this young couple, they are absolutely. They were absolutely beautiful people. Sarah Milgram and Yaron Leshinsky. Forgive me if I'm not getting those names correct or 100% correct. He was planning to propose to her until after the couple, they were killed by this gunman in Washington, D.C. aaron, you've been following this all day. I saw you do some reports on this earlier. Your thoughts? I mean, I think about all the young people who come to Washington who want to change the world and work on a particular interest or, you know, a side of the political debate that they want to work on. And it, when it ends in tragedy like this, it absolutely breaks my heart.
- [39:00]
Aaron Parnas
Yeah, I mean, it breaks my heart, too. And I think it hits personal for me. I mean, these two were part of my community. I live in Washington, D.C. i've met them. I've been in the same room as them.
- [39:09]
Jim Acosta
Really?
- [39:09]
Aaron Parnas
Yeah.
- [39:10]
Jim Acosta
Oh, I didn't know that.
- [39:11]
Aaron Parnas
They used to come to my synagogue for a number of events. They come around so I've seen them before. I know they were an integral part of the community. And I will say this. I mean, I think it was an atrocity. It was horrific. And I think unfortunately, a lot of people just don't really know the facts around it really that well. Right. I mean, yes, they were two staffers of the Israeli Embassy, but they were attending an event at the Capitol Jewish Museum, an event that had nothing to do with Israel. The event actually focused around humanitarian efforts in Mena in the Middle east and North Africa. And the gunmen seem to just go there and just target anyone who was at this event at the Capitol Jewish Museum. He wasn't targeting Israeli officials. He didn't even know Israeli officials were there. So it really is a horrific act of antisemitism. I think it really highlights how anti Semitism has spread in our nation, around the world. I mean, I think in the same vein, I mean, no one is discounting what is happening in Gaza or in the Middle East. Right. Two really don't have anything to do with each other here because this was an act of anti Semitism here in America. And I think it needs to be condemned unequivocally. And I'm really glad to see that folks across the political spectrum, from the left to the right and everywhere in between have really come together here. And he was actually, the gunman was actually just indicted by authorities a minute ago on multiple counts of first degree murder. So we'll see what happens.
- [40:36]
Jim Acosta
And so you would see them at synagogue. Can you say what they were like? They just look like lovely people. I know.
- [40:44]
Aaron Parnas
Yeah, not really. I mean, I didn't know them well. Like, I've seen them in passing. Right. I mean, they were just part of the overall Jewish community, but it really definitely hit hard. I mean, tonight we're going to have a vigil in front of the White House at 8pm so if anyone's in Washington D.C. feel free to come out. I'll be there just to kind of mourn their lives and remember them. Because it's. I think it's a murder. It's a tragic murder. And at the same time, it doesn't just touch the two of them, it touches the 15, 16 million Jews around the world. Because this is something that we've been saying for a long time that anti Semitism is on the rise. And if you don't stop it, if you don't call it out, it's only going to get worse. And here we are.
- [41:25]
Jim Acosta
Yeah. Their names were Sarah Milgram and Yaron Lashinsky. And you're absolutely right, Aaron. They are the latest victims in what has been a wave of anti Semitism around the world, and it must be strongly condemned. Hate should have no home in the United States or anywhere else around the world for that matter. It just broke my heart when I saw their story and their photos this morning and what happened here in Washington. It just absolutely breaks my heart. And I think people need to do some soul searching to make sure that these kinds of feelings of hatred are not creeping into their heart, because it just takes us to a bad place. There's just no question about it, Aaron. The other thing I do want to talk about is what took place at Harvard earlier today. Your response to that? Because what seems to be happening, in my view, is that Trump and his people are trying to suppress any idea, any notion that young people should be able to rise up in this country and protest. Obviously, people should be able to protest peacefully. They should be able to do it and respect other walks of life, other people from other walks of life, and so on. But to punish Harvard in this way and say, you know, no more international students, and those international students, by the way, need to transfer. I mean, this is going after academia.
- [42:49]
Aaron Parnas
Yeah. I mean, 100%. And I think it's interesting it's going after academia couched and going after antisemitism. Because if this is truly about antisemitism, he wouldn't have just barred Harvard from enrolling Israeli students, which is exactly what he just did. Right. It targets every single country across the globe. It doesn't just target Middle Eastern or Arab countries. And the reason why the justification for this, according to Kristi Noem, was simply because Harvard wouldn't give up disciplinary records of undocumented students to the Department of Homeland Security so that they can deport students faster. And, well, here's the thing. I think Harvard will win in court. I think if you go up against Harvard, get ready for a legal battle. And I'm pretty confident that this is just yet another unconstitutional act, another unlawful act in a string of unlawful acts. But I will say this. If Harvard gives in, that is a very dangerous situation. That'll open up Columbia, nyu, all these other top universities to do the same and to face the same kind of pressure from the Trump administration. So I really just hope Harvard holds strong here.
- [43:51]
Jim Acosta
And Harvard has been holding strong. I mean, they have been standing up to Trump, unlike some of these other universities. And what has taken place in Trump's war on academia since coming back into office is that he has been successful in bullying a lot of other universities into submission. And a federal judge earlier today did block the Trump administration from terminating the legal statuses of international students. The immigration component of this is a huge part of this. And I was talking about this with Anan earlier, and please feel free to weigh in. I mean, this is the best kind of advertising. Some of the. It's like usaid. It's some of the best advertising that the United States has, that you have these, these gold standard universities in this country where people from around the world want to send their kids to get their education. And then they go back and they talk about what America is all about. And I mean. I mean, what America's all about these days is, right, maybe not the best, best advertisement when, when Trump's in power, but, I mean, we still have a democratic republic at this point. And when these students come here, they were immersed in that.
- [44:56]
Aaron Parnas
He doesn't care is the issue. At the end of the day, he doesn't care. And it's not just about Harvard. It's not just about going after universities. You know this as well as I do. He's going after the free press. He's having the gold standard of the press capitulate to the White House. He's having the gold standard of the law firms in America that are some of the best law firms, not just in America, but around the world capitulate to the White House. This is a blatant attack on just the fundamental institutions that make America great. And if he wants to make America great again, he's really doing a bad job at it because he's dismantling everything that already makes America the greatest country in the world. So I think it's a very dangerous kind of path we're on. I don't see the end, though, as the unfortunate thing, because we're now just four months into this administration. We still have three years and eight months left. What's next? And there will be something next.
- [45:47]
Jim Acosta
That's absolutely right, Aaron. And it's so perceptive. And it brings me back to something that you said earlier that I want to peel back the onion on, which is you said that basically Trump's presidency is the first presidency that you kind of remember.
- [46:01]
Aaron Parnas
Right.
- [46:02]
Jim Acosta
And that took my breath away when you said it. I wanted to save that thought for the end of this conversation because that worries me greatly. And this has been on my mind for some time, that young people who are coming up in this world, their base of knowledge when it comes to the American presidency, is this dictator Wannabe. And that is not what America is all about. That's not. I mean, you know, we've been through a lot in this country. We've had presidents that we don't, we shouldn't be very proud of, but we've had some damn good ones. And we've had people who put the interests of the American people first. And when you mentioned the West Win, I mean, I don't want to recommend any viewing, you know, for something that goes back to yesteryear. But Martin Sheen playing Jed Bartlett is kind of what it's all about. And that was. He was portraying a president. He was basically portraying a modern day John F. Kennedy. But putting the interests of America and America leading with the idea that. Right. Makes might. I mean, that is what I think of when I think of American greatness. And it pains me to hear you say that. What you know about the American presidency is Donald Trump.
- [47:15]
Anand Giridharadas
That's good.
- [47:15]
Jim Acosta
Yeah.
- [47:16]
Aaron Parnas
I mean 100%. I mean, it's actually, I have a funny anecdote about the West Wing. I got invited when during President Biden's term to the White House to celebrate the West Wing for a celebration. And I went up to the actor that plays Jeb Bartlett and I asked him who he played because I had no idea.
- [47:30]
Anand Giridharadas
Wow.
- [47:31]
Aaron Parnas
So that was an interesting moment. But I will say it's.
- [47:35]
Jim Acosta
And we love Martin Sheikh.
- [47:36]
Aaron Parnas
Yeah, yeah. But I see a lot of comments about this, about how what we're living through right now is not normal. But folks, what we are living through, young people are living through is normal for us. This is our normal. Right. We don't know anything different. When people tell us, oh, we're just going to get back to normal. The pendulum is just going to swing back to the center, it's going to swing back to the left, it's going to be normal again. No, you can't tell us that and expect us to believe you when we don't know anything different. And I think moving forward, we need to live in this new normal and compete in this new normal to make it a better version of what we're living through. Because what we're living through. Yeah. It may not seem normal to many, but it is normal to us. And it, if we don't, if, when, when you're messaging to young people, if you don't recognize that, then you're not going to break through to any. Anyone my age.
- [48:23]
Jim Acosta
Yeah. I mean, two things. I mean, one is John McCain used to say that, that young people need to be inspired to be a part of a cause that is greater than themselves. And I think that he was absolutely right about that. And Joe Biden, who has been beaten up in the press and so on, I personally think it's way, way, way too much and way over cranked, way overboard. He has a thing that he has said in the past that you don't get to choose the time in which you were born. You can choose how you respond to it. And I think that's one of the best Biden isms that I've heard. I think that's terrific advice to young people. And I hope that you don't lose, you know, your sense of what this country can be in folks your age, because it can be so much better than this.
- [49:18]
Aaron Parnas
I tell everyone I'm not. I'm not going anywhere, right? No matter what they throw at me, no matter what they throw at folks my age, we're not going anywhere. We are some of the most energized and excited people. When it comes to voting right now, when it comes to protesting on the streets, when it comes to making our voices heard, it's all about having leaders in office who will champion our, our voices and our message. And I think there are a lot of good folks out there. And I. I don't count Gen Z out yet just yet.
- [49:44]
Jim Acosta
I'm not, I'm not. I'm not gonna. We thought that, you know, Gen Z was going to come out there swinging in the last election, but, you know, the Trump people were very smart. They were very adept in how they played to the podcaster audience, the new media, independent media audience. I think that paid dividends for that. But I think Gen Z is now saying, oh, wait a minute, you know, and I'm not talking folks like yourself, but on the, on the right, I think. I think in that community, you're saying buyers remorse. Yeah, a lot of buyers remorse, a lot of buyer's remorse. But speaking about trying to inspire young people, I mean, that's one of the reasons why I'm doing this. Live town hall in D.C. coming up on June 2nd with Mike Fanone and Olivia Troy. I know, Aaron, you said you would like to be there. I hope you can be there, be a part of it, maybe even participate in it a little bit. Ask a question, say something. It'd be great. Because what you've been able to do has been absolutely fantastic.
- [50:37]
Aaron Parnas
I wouldn't miss it. And everyone should come out to dc. It's going to be an awesome event.
- [50:41]
Jim Acosta
Yeah, it's gonna be great. It's gonna Be at the Lincoln Theater on June 2. I did not mean to rope you into a plug for our live. It just sort of happened organically because of what you were saying. But I do worry about this because I worry about these young people, like, who play in, you know, the orchestra at the Kennedy center and work at the Smithsonian here in Washington at the African American History Museum and just see Trump or work at the nih. And to see Trump just go through like a bull in a china shop on meth, you know, it just, it pisses me off. It pisses me off to no end, in part because of what it is doing to young people.
- [51:19]
Aaron Parnas
Yeah. I mean, and I think more even one step further, the young people that were in the AmeriCorps. Right. And the people that were actually, I mean, they're getting paid minimum wage, if that, to go work in a third world country and help people, and now they don't have a job. And that's. And we're not funding that. Those are the young people that I, I am thinking about. And it's. It's a very tough, tough situation. And I will say this, A lot of people are having buyer's remorse. I talk to people every day who voted for him, who are having buyer's remorse. It's kind of the same way, like I tell everyone in 2016, a lot of not young people who couldn't vote. A lot of older folks bought into the idea that he was this change maker, that he told it how it was and he was going to do amazing things for the country they bought in. And then they had buyer's remorse. Then we got Biden. Now this time around, all the young people kind of bought in on when he was on these podcasts and on TikTok and doing all these things, they showed up and voted for him thinking that he was going to be good for them. And now I think they're having that same buyer's remorse. So we'll see what happens in November. We'll see what happens next November. But ultimately, I have hope.
- [52:27]
Jim Acosta
Good, good. I. I'm glad to hear that. Aaron Parnas, great to see you. Thank you so much for coming on today. And I'm so glad you texted this morning and said, hey, what's this thing you're doing? And I was like, hey, man, come on today. And so we'll keep talking as we get closer, but really want you to be a part of it. So thank you so much.
- [52:44]
Aaron Parnas
Really appreciate it. For sure. Thanks so much. And I hope everyone has a great night.
- [52:47]
Jim Acosta
All right, you too. Thanks, Aaron. Really appreciate it. All right. And we need. We. We need the youngs.
- [52:52]
Anand Giridharadas
We need.
- [52:53]
Jim Acosta
We need the youths, as Joe Pesci said, and my cousin Viddy. And listen what Aaron and I were talking about there at the end. And I hope he does go and watch the West Wing a little bit. And it may be a little corny for me to go off on the West Wing, but I'm going to go off on the West Wing for a little bit because I'm feeling. I'm feeling a rant coming on. I'm feeling a. I'm feeling a closing message coming on. And what I loved about the West Wing, you know, and this. This came out when I was in my 30s, is the idealism that was sort of woven into the story that was being told by that show. And it came out during a time where there was a lot of pessimism in this country. You know, not as. Maybe not as much pessimism as there is today, but it was a show that said you can count on the people in Washington, that you can count on the person in the White House, the person in the Oval Office, the person behind the Resolute desk. We don't have that now. We don't have that now. We have a person in the Oval Office who wants to bully college students, who wants to intimidate and bully college students. Donald Trump is no Jed Bartlett. Far from it. There's no question about it. And we need Jed Bartlett. We need leaders like him now more than ever. We don't need a bully, somebody who's running an intimidation racket. Bully Harvard during the day and then go dine with your crypto bros at night. People who are lining your pockets because they're buying your bullshit meme coin. That's not what the President of the United States does. That's not what Jeb Bartlett would do. Wasn't there an episode where they. They talked about God bless Jed Bartlett? I think it was something along those lines. And I just. Or I believe in Jed Bartlett. Maybe that's. That's what it was. Can't remember. But we need that kind of leadership today to inspire the young people of this country. The young people of this country. People like Aaron. He grew up with Trump as president. That's his sense of the presidency, of the presidency of the United States. Somebody who bullies college students and sells the White House out to crypto bros. Give me a damn break. That's not what America's all about. That is not American greatness. That is his brand of corrupt authoritarianism that he is trying to sell to all of us and to our young people. And I talk all the time about preserving and protecting the American way of life on this program. Part of preserving and protecting the American way of life is making sure, ensuring that it's still there, that what we grew up with is still there for the young people, for people like Aaron, for the people who are coming up in this world. They're counting on us. They're counting on us to find the next Jed Bartlett, whether that be a man or a woman the next time around. We need something better than what we have right now in the West Wing. A bully, a corrupt bully. So maybe pour one out for Jed Bartlett tonight. That's what I'll be doing. Thanks, everybody, for watching. I want to appreciate or send a shout out to my. My buddy Anon for coming on. I feel like he and I are becoming buddies in part because his hair is. I mean, I will say that I don't brag about much, but I think I got decent hair. I think it's okay. It's not bad. It used to be better, but it's not bad. Anand takes it to the next level. Definitely want to send a shout out to Anand. Thank him very much. And also my thanks to Aaron Parnas because, you know, you can say, oh, the young influencers. Yeah, I want young influencers on this show. Why? Because they're influential. And I want to reach young people to make sure that they understand that there's more to this country than a bully who has a bag out for his buddies, for his cronies. We're better than that. We're more than that. Watch the West Wing tonight. All right? In the meantime, pour one out for Jeff Bartlett. Still reporting from Washington, I'm Jim Acosta. Have a good evening. Good night.