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The Jim Acosta Show
Big Win in Push to Release the Epstein Files with Jess Michaels and Michael Fanone on Political Rhetoric in America.
01:03:55
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Foreign.
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Welcome to the Jim Acosta show. And a big win in the push to release the Epstein files. That's our top story this hour. Democrats won a special election for a congressional seat in Arizona. That could add the final decisive vote to force the release of the Epstein files. My first guest this hour to talk about this is Epstein survivor Jess Michaels. Jess, welcome back to the program. Great to have you back.
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A
Thank you for having me. Jim. Happy.
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B
Yeah. And this is the story in the Hill. For folks who aren't paying attention to this stuff, you really should because this was a big development. The former Pima county supervisor Adelita Grialva. She is the daughter of the late Raul Grialva. He, she easily won a special election last night, Tuesday night in Arizona's 7th congressional district to fill her father's seat. The importance of that is this. That win means lawmakers pushing for the release of the Epstein files now have enough votes in the House to move forward. Congressman Thomas Massie, Ro Khanna, they will clinch enough signatures on their discharge petition, if you're following all the ins and outs of this, as soon as she is sworn in. And Jess, your reaction to that, because that is big news.
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A
It is. And she said the first act she wants to do as a member is sign that discharge petition. So it was really good news because we've really been pushing for that now for the last three weeks and we hadn't really heard if Republicans had shifted at all in that committee and she clinched it to at least get it to a vote. So it's very exciting.
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B
Yeah. And I guess now we just have to watch that process move forward. But I mean, it's, it's a big, big moment. And I guess I, I'm wondering in the back of your mind, are you, you must be wondering, well, how is this going to get derailed this time? I mean, that thought has to occur to you. It's a, it's occurred to me that, you know, you just never know what's going to happen up there. I suppose you just have to have hope. What are your thoughts?
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A
You, you just said it. We have to have hope. We have to have hope that Republicans are going to hear our story. I mean, that's part of the, part of the problem that we're coming up against. And I've talked about it a little bit on my socials, that I've been doing interviews four or five times a week and yet I have not had a request from a single conservative news outlet. So they're not hearing our story. That's really disturbing because the reality is, is that a third of Republican women statistically have been sexually assaulted or abused. A third. And so if they could just hear our stories, they would relate to some of the pushback, the disbelief, the lack of credibility that we're facing and they would understand why some of us took a long time to ever say anything. That that's actually a really normal response to trauma. So we're really hoping to get to those Republican women and Republican senators to help and just.
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B
I don't want to race past what you just said there. Did you just say that, that you're not hearing from conservative media? They're not reaching out to the Survivor Network, by and large, to get their side of the story and to hear about this pressure that is being put on members of Congress?
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No, I actually had a friend that talked to somebody she was dating who happened to be more on the conservative side. And she said to him, because she's an advocate, she's like, so what have you been hearing about, you know, the Epstein files? And he goes, oh, I thought that was over with. Because they are not hearing anything. And that's part of the problem with how this problem has perpetuated, you know, for generations. It's because our stories are not being heard by the people that are making the, the laws and the rules.
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B
Yeah, well, I mean, a lot of this goes back to, you know, us in the, in the media. And I consider myself independent media. I don't consider myself part of the mainstream or legacy corporate media anymore. But my big concern is, is that the corporate media is going to let this story go. And it's that kind of media pressure, it's journalists doing their job, media outlets doing their job that will force Congress to do the right thing here. And I just hope that, you know, because I talked to Ro Khanna about this last week. He's one of the Democrats who's really been pushing hard for this, along with Thomas Massie, Republican. This is a bipartisan effort, bipartisan bill. And Ro Khanna has said that when this vote happens, it's likely to be a very huge, I mean, big majority in favor of this if and when they get to that point.
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A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And just so that, you know, I mean, I was on CNN on Friday, I was on MSNBC on Saturday morning, a couple other survivors, because we have a, obviously we've started our own, you know, group chat. You're rooting each other on when, when, when we go on national news media. So, so we are getting out there. There are Platforms that are, that are pushing our. Not pushing, but at least giving us a space on their platform to share, to ask questions, to educate audiences. So that. That does feel hopeful there. It hasn't been lost, and it hasn't been lost on social media, so tampered down. But I think that this might change things.
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B
And, I mean, one of the things that is happening in D.C. is the people are rising up and the people are making sure that folks don't forget about what has happened with Jeffrey Epstein, in particular his friendship with Donald Trump. And there was one big example right in front of the Capitol yesterday. I'm sure you saw this, Jess, just remarkable. Somebody, a group called Secret Handshake. We're not sure who those folks are. If they ever want to come on the Jim Acosta show, they're welcome to come on at any point. But they put the statue up there yesterday, was down there covering this. I mean, we saw a steady stream of tourists, of government workers, you name it. Anybody who was down on the mall, they wanted to come see this. And, Jess, I have to play this one piece of sound for you, because I did find a Trump supporter who went to check out the statue for himself. And this is what he said. This is what he told me. Guys are Trump supporters. You guys like Trump or.
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Yeah.
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You like him? Yeah, I like them. Why do you think he won't release the files? Because he's on it. You still like him, though, if he's on it?
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Probably not, no.
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So there you go. I mean, and this, I think, explains why Donald Trump has been standing. He's been the biggest obstacle to this the whole time. If this comes out and he's, he's mentioned in there in a damaging way, he's obviously going to want to prevent that from happening. And his own supporters seem to get that. Your thoughts?
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Yeah. I have conservative friends and family that this is their one issue, that, that they, they agree this is, this is absurd. Just, you know, as, as a family member said, just release the files and move on. Like, just let the chips fall where they may, just release them. Because this is, you know, I'm not just here for myself. I'm not just here as an advocate. I'm here because we need accountability for the past, but we need to make sure this ever happens again. That's what I'm doing as an advocate is making sure that we are not allowing, as the. Why, as Jasmine Crockett said, we don't want a Jeffrey Epstein 2.0.
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Yeah, right. And what did you think? I mean, Just your general reaction to seeing that, that statue, I mean, that. Pretty creative.
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Yeah, it's pretty creative. And that's, you know, I thought about the amount of time and effort that it took to put all of that together, the plaques, every single piece of it. And I was really appreciative of a chance to laugh when something is so painful.
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B
Yeah, no, I mean, and they were friends. I mean, Donald Trump talked about it. We've seen all the video of it. I still don't understand. I mean, you and I haven't spoken in a while, but when they released the Epstein birthday book, I still for the life of me do not understand their denials and how they're trying to say that there was some sort of hoax or forgery of his signature. I mean, this birthday book apparently came from the Epstein estate. It was turned over to the oversight committee. I don't understand how somebody 22 years ago would have fraudulently forged all of this and slipped it into this birthday book to embarrass him all these years later as president. Like, what did you make of all that stuff? Because, I mean, that was just bizarre to me.
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A
It was bizarre. And the birthday book had some particularly painful points for me personally. There was a cartoon in there of Jeffrey on the lounge chair and there were the four girls massaging and one at the head, one at the feet, one in the middle. And that exact joke. I don't know if you can show it here. Do you know which?
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We know which one. I know what you're talking about. If we can find it, we'll show it.
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A
It's the one where it shows 1983 and he's giving balloons to little girls. And then 2003, these, there's girls massaging him. So when I had gone to what I thought, to my trial massage, as I was hoping to be, you know, to become a masseuse by training with him, he actually said that as a joke. He's like, you know, in other countries you have three masseuses. You have one at your head, one at your feet, one in the middle. Hahaha. And that was like the start of the, that was really how the conversation devolved and became sexual. And, and so it was really, when I saw that cartoon, it was very jarring. It was really, it was painful because, because it took me right back to that day and the, and the blame I felt on myself and I felt terrible. Blame, self blame. And, and I was wrong. Just so we're clear. I was wrong. But, but it, it definitely hurt. And I, I Know that people can look at it now and they can find the absurdity and the, the, the vileness of it. And what people need to remember is that people were celebrating this. They were celebrating this book.
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Right.
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Celebrating him and this lifestyle that he had made for himself and what he had really done as a master manipulator is every single person around him was groomed. Every single person around him was groomed to just go along with it and normalize it. Or they were participating like these men were participating in it and applauding it and laughing at all of us, pretty much laughing at us.
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You know, you're absolutely right. And that, to me, is what struck me about that birthday book, is that it seemed to be common knowledge in his friend network that this is what he was up to. And there were people making light of this. And the drawing. You're absolutely right. The one that shows. That's it right there.
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Like, that was devastating. And I happened to not be sleeping. It was the week after DC and I'm scrolling through my phone at like 4 o' clock in the morning. And so I saw it and I just started sobbing because my experience was from 1991, him telling me this joke. So to see it in a birthday book in 2003, this was a pattern of behavior. I had a criminal behavior analyst say to me, she said, Jessica, at 22, you were no match for him. At 22, you were just. Were no match for him then, you know. Yeah, it was just so devastating when I, when I saw it.
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B
But the other thing about this is, you know, if there had not been all this pressure, had, had this not gotten, you know, spun up into a big scandal for Trump over these last few months, we would have never found out about this.
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Exactly.
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And these disclosures, I mean, these other. I mean, again, this is another one that, to me, it's. This is Bas saying this was common knowledge among. Among his friend network. And there was the other one that showed the, the phony Trump check that indicated that there was some knowledge of this friendship between these two men.
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A
Yeah. Purchasing a woman.
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Purchasing a woman. That's right. And, you know, it just tells me that this is why you have to release the files and this is why you have to keep the pressure on, because you have to assume there are other disclosures that they don't want to come out.
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A
Yeah. And I, there's something that I keep seeing in my comments. People are like, release the file, Release the file. Release the files. You know, you guys just do it. And I think what people don't understand is that it is not safe for us to do that. We need Department of Justice to do their job. We need law enforcement to do their job. We need politicians to do their job and keep the pressure on and to do votes like this for the Epstein transparency bill. We need everybody else to, to form around us a protective shield.
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B
Yes.
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A
In order for this to happen. And I, and I, you know, when I came on the show last time, I really wanted, I, I always share a tidbit of knowledge with wherever I go. And I, I really wanted to say this because I think everyone needs to understand. I know right now that if a third of your female audience has been a survivor of sexual assault or abuse, a fifth of your male audience statistically has been a survivor of sexual abuse. What I also know is that 48%, and I fall into this, 48% of childhood sexual abuse survivors are then abused as adults. I talked with a woman who is an expert in like sex trafficking and, and the sex, sex work and she said she interviewed one hundred and fifty sex workers, prostitutes and that were, that were also, that were trafficked. And she said out of those 150, all of them but three had experienced childhood sexual abuse. There is a theme here that children are, are being used and abused and then that is negatively impacting on every level their future as adults. Decision making, relationships, career trajectories. And I know that the people listening right now know exactly what I'm talking about. And part of it is that when you are abused as a child, it negatively impacts your nervous system and your ability to make choices in the future. Your ability to, your inability for talking about what happened for a really long time.
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Yeah.
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And so we have to stop this. And the only way we're going to be able to stop it is if we do this together. So I want people to remember that when we're talking about this, we're not just talking about Trump. It's bigger than that. We're not talking about Republicans versus Democrats. It's bigger than that. It's our children. Me, the five year old girl that was sexually abused as a child by her grandfather, which caused me to freeze when I was with Epstein. It's, it's, it's the people that worked with him that nine times out of ten I know, you don't even have to tell me they were sexually abused as children. You don't even have to tell me. And so we need grace and compassion, but we have to do this together or no one is safe to do it. And that's why I really appreciate you having me on. That's why I really appreciate what the politicians are doing. We're going to keep doing what we're doing, but we need public pressure. Yes, public pressure to continue and to not give up. Not give up on us, not giving up on themselves. We know we're. I've had a lot of people say, you guys are representing me as a child that was sexually abused, you know, at 12 years old, at 7 years old, at 5 years old, at 2 years old. You're representing us. We are doing that and we need you to keep up pressure.
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B
Yeah. No, you're so right. And what you said there was so powerful. I, I just, I, I could see some of the comments coming in and, you know, it resonated with me. You know, I'm sure it resonated with so many people because you're, you're so right. There's so many people who have been through this and they've been holding it inside of them. Maybe they haven't confided to a loved one all these years and it just tears them up inside. It just absolutely tears them up inside. Because. And we've heard this time and again that in discussing what happened with your situation and, and all of the other survivors is. There's. It is such a journey to get to a point where you let yourself have a break, let yourself off the hook. It's not your fault. You didn't do anything wrong. This was done to you.
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He was a. He was masterful in 1991. Predators know their prey.
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Yeah.
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He did not choose people who would say, no, he didn't. He. He looked for weaknesses. And a lot of people think, like, situations that I hear even about, like domestic violence, for example, you know, why didn't people leave or why did they go back? Right. That's a big question. People think that choosing to leave was as if they were choosing safe and unsafe, and that's not true. It's. It's still a lack of safety, whether it's financial or like, there's still a lack of safety and a lack of agency over their body versus being unsafe. But known like the devil, you know, beats the devil, you don't. Yeah, right. Yeah. We always feel like it's our fault and it is devastating to our psyche. And it takes a lot of therapy and a lot of time. And I will, I will tell you. We were going to talk about Acosta, right?
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Yeah. I was just about to ask you about that. I always say no relation. Please. I'VE done extensive research on this Alex Acosta. He testified. Well, he went in there and he gave some closed door testimony. I mean this is one of the things that really bugs me about what happens up on Capitol Hill. In particular, the way the Republicans have tried to shield Trump in all of this. And you know, Alex Acosta is a former U.S. attorney. He should have been out there in front of the cameras testifying all this. That's my personal view on this. And according to some of the reports that came out is that he was, he was fairly unapologetic for the deal that he cut. And he did, apparently did not take into consideration the, the victim statements, the survivor statements, as much as he should have. That standard operating procedure. What, what, what was your reaction to some of the reports coming out about this? Because I, you know, I, I almost wanted to change my last name when I heard about this. Honestly. I mean this, what's. This guy's a turkey.
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I love the common turkey. That's funny. So, so I'm gonna. The heart. You asked me how I'm doing.
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B
Yeah.
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The hardest thing that I've or I, I really, I should say I realized a coping skill that I had was by not knowing all the details of this case. I didn't go down Epstein rabbit holes. I was like, Oh, I was 1991. I wasn't part of that deal.
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B
Makes sense.
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I, I was really siloing myself and since DC and I met all these other survivors and I'm hearing their stories and, and every week it's something even more egregious that I learn about this case and it, and it's gotten really painful and really personal. And what I didn't know was that when the 2006 investigation happened that federal, federal officials identified 36 underage witnesses. I thought, and that's not, that doesn't show up in the case. Right? That doesn't actually show up. I think there were only three or four that were listed. And then he only got two counts of like prostitution. And when I thought there were 36 underage witnesses. 36 underage witnesses that his lead prosecutor said, oh, we've got a case here. We've got, we've got. I think she had 35 counts of sex trafficking in right. 52 page indictment and 36. And he never looked at the victim statements and he never ever bothered to even. He just made, made the call and, and said the word non credible, which is the same thing said and Cash Patel said, oh, if we have new information, they haven't even they haven't even interviewed all of the survivors. I know that I talked to a survivor who she spoke to the Web, the FBI for seven years, and they have never interviewed her. Seven years.
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Wow.
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Never interviewed her. She's been in documentaries. She's, she's.
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And this has happened throughout this whole saga. I mean, repeatedly.
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People are not being heard. And I'm going to go back to what I said earlier, that I'm. I'm here and I speak because I don't. I don't want Epstein 2.0, that if we don't start learning all of our stories, and I'm not just talking about my episode, but what led to that. Meaning childhood sexual abuse is what leads to someone being able to weaponize someone's weaknesses against them and their vulnerabilities against them to do their bidding. If we can't talk about those, we are never going to change this.
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You're absolutely right. There's. There's no question about it. I mean, this has to change, and the way we talk about this subject has to change. And I mean, to me, you know, the question I have is, anybody at the White House been willing to listen to the survivors? Because that standard operating procedure in a case this big, the White Democrat or Republican White House should be listening.
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A
So I know that the meeting with the House committee was very powerful. And even survivors, the way they described it, I don't know if you heard how that went down, but they had survivors. Did you hear that? They put them in chronological order. So it was a brilliant move because even the survivors were weepy. They said, we didn't know each other's story. We hold our stories in chronological order. And one of the lawyers was saying, usually in these types of testimonies, you know, people are going in and out. It can be a little chaotic. She said you could hear a pin drop. They shared what was going on, and they just shared all the way from 1996 to 2008. And the overlap was sad and profound and scary. Scary. So we know that was really powerful. And we know. I know that there are efforts right now that we will get in. And because. Because what happens now after the bill, the dispatch petition is. Is approved, I believe it has to just go through the House and then it has to go to the Senate.
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Exactly.
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And so we have. We have 10 Republican women to talk to. We. I. I want to say something. I cannot even put my story in chronological order. That is the very definition of trauma. That's actually called my therapist. That's how she knew how bad it was.
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B
Wow.
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Skipping around that is the very definition that your brain has been damaged.
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B
Wow.
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Memory loss, inability to put things in chronological order. That is proof that it was trauma.
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B
Wow.
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I just had to respond to that.
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Amazing that you saw that viewer comment and then responded to it. Thank you, viewers, for sending in your comments. It's so important.
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Yeah. So. So what we're. We are planning to hopefully get to speak to the Senate, to the women there.
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Yes.
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There are 10 women, and a reality is one out of three of them have been sexually assaulted. And so what we need is everyone to look at this as a nonpartisan issue. We need Republicans to be behind us on this. And so we're hoping to talk to anyone that will listen. I know that there's a concerted effort to first reach out to assistance and then see if we can get meetings.
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B
Yeah. Well, I think you have to take it one step at a time, and I think it makes sense to take it to the Senate next. And I think it would be. They would be out of their minds to have any opposition whatsoever to the effort that you got that you're bringing forward. What's that?
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A
It would be telling, wouldn't it?
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B
It would be very telling. And I believe Joni Ernst, the senator from Iowa, has spoken extensively on this subject. I think she herself has said that she was a victim. And there. You're absolutely right that there has to be other members who have been through this, I would think, and certainly members of the Senate who have staff members who have been through something like this.
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Exactly, Exactly. Exactly. And this is what, you know, what I'm hoping from this moment is that we all are starting to talk about this a little bit more easily. Find the safe people to talk to. Find your safe person to just be able to say, look, this happened. And I need you to just hug me. I need you to just hear me. I need you to just see me. Don't ask me any questions, don't pry. And I want to give you what I feel comfortable giving you at this moment. I can't. I can't say anymore. But just know, you know, it happened to me and I just need to feel supported because one of the things that I'm trying to change is that this is viewed as an injury, not just a crime.
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B
Yeah.
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If we treated it like an injury, we would act different. We would treat each other different.
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B
Yeah.
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When we understood that it's an injury that is a brain injury and a nervous system injury, and it ruins our defensive system and the ability to make Decisions. So I hope everyone that's listening, that has experienced it, has a little bit of grace and passion and finds their safe people to talk to.
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B
And I hope folks who are listening to you understand that there is hope. And I think that part of the journey is, you know, expressing yourself and talking about it and finding people to talk about it. I think it's been safe.
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A
Safe.
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B
The safe people. Yes, that's right. That's right. There's. There is a difference. But I. I can just tell from looking at the viewer comments as they're coming in that as you're speaking, you are having an effect, such a positive effect on the folks who are listening out there. Jess, I, you know, I think it's important. I really do.
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A
Thank you.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Thank you for having me. I really thank you. I'm honored. Anytime anybody asks me to come on. And this is my second time with you, so I really appreciate.
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B
Of course. And I. And when we talk, I. I'll say, like, hey, Jess, can you come on? You'll say, well, you know what? Today's not a good day. Yeah, today, maybe next day or next week. And I could. Because they're good to be good days and bad days. And it were. Maybe the previous day you were on another interview. And folks need to understand when you and the other survivors talk about this, it. It's. You're pouring your heart out. It's not easy.
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A
It's a level of. I call it a vulnerability hangover. So I'm sharing, and I'm here and I'm present with you, and I want to listen to everything you're asking me, and I want to make sure that my words are right and that they resonate. And what happens is the amount of energy that's going out at the end, and the vulnerability is exhausting at the end of it. And it's what I feel really called to do, and I know this is the moment to be doing it. So even though it's hard, I think it's important. And I wouldn't. I wouldn't do it if I didn't want to. That's why I sometimes say, no, that's okay.
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B
No, no, no. People say that to me all the time, so it's totally fine. Yeah. And talk about not getting the right words. That story of my life, you know, I. I struggle every day with that. As somebody who tries to be good with his words. It just doesn't happen all the time. But I think every time you come on, it's just. You hit it out of the park every time. And, and it's just amazing. So I appreciate what you do.
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A
Thank you, Jim. I appreciate you.
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B
Thanks, Jess. All right. We'll stay in touch as this thing moves forward. And I hope, I hope this discharge petition or whatever the heck they call it does happen because you know what, and that this vote in Arizona is the, is the, the clincher here because people have waited long enough. I mean, it's, you know, we, people have to put a statue in front of the, the Capitol to shame these lawmakers and Trump and everybody into just letting this just, it just needs to happen. It just needs to come out.
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A
It's 30 years in the making. Maria came out in 1996, talked to the FBI. I mean, it's, it's 30 years in the making.
- [29:49]
B
Yeah. Thank you, Jess. Really appreciate it. Good to see you. Thanks so much. Let's see my friend Mike Fanone. He is going to be coming on in just a moment here. He has a few things to say about rhetoric in this country. That is, that has been top of mind today. I'll walk you through a couple of headlines on that subject. I mean, one of the things that we need to talk about is, is what took place in Dallas today. The, the shooting in Dallas aimed at a ICE detention facility is the other big story that has been happening today. And of course, as you can imagine, and I'm, I'm sure as you've all noticed, there were, there were some folks who were already hopping on this immediately and trying to score political points with it, even though we don't have all the information at this point. But the Associated Press is reporting right now that a shooter with a rifle opened fire from a nearby roof onto a U.S. immigration and Customs Enforcement location in Dallas earlier today, killing two detainees and wounding another before taking his own life. Fox in the New York Post reported just a short while ago that the shooter's name, the shooter is identified as 29 year old Joshua John. Apparently he is from Texas. And the exact motivation of the attack is not immediately known. The FBI said at a news conference that ammunition found at the scene contained anti ICE messaging. And the FBI director, Cash Patel released a photo. We've probably all seen this on social media that shows a bullet containing the words anti ICE written in what appears to be marker. So some sort of Sharpie or something like that was, was used to write anti ICE on one of the bullets. And of course, we're gonna have to wait and see what the investigation, you know, tells us. And all of this, I mean, one of the Things that we have to keep in mind. And I've said this again. I said it during the Charlie Kirk tragedy. I'll say it during this one. You have to wait for all the facts to come in before you draw conclusions. Drawing conclusions at this point. That is what, that is what the bad faith actors do. And it's really, it's, it's really disappointing when that happens, I believe. Do we have Mike in the studio now? Could we bring Mike in? Is Mike with us just yet? Maybe he's not with us just yet. Is Mike with us? Maybe he's not with us yet. Okay, we're still waiting on Mike. All right. Do I have to call Mike? I might have to call Mike. The other big news that's happening and when, when Fanon hops on, I'll get him on this because he's going to join us at any moment. I thought I saw that he was in there, so that's why I asked if he was here just a short while ago. MSNBC's Kendallanian reporting that former FBI Director James Comey, who has for years been the target of Trump's ire, is expected to be indicted in the coming days in the Eastern District of Virginia, where a prosecutor who opposed bringing the case was recently fired. This is according to three sources familiar with the matter, telling MSNBC Ken was reporting on this, as well as his colleague over at msnbc, Carol Lennox. Ken also says the full extent of the charges being prepared against Comey is unclear, but the sources believe that at least one element of the indictment, if it goes forward, will accuse him of lying to Congress during his testimony on September 30, back in 2020 about whether he authorized a leak of information. Here's the clincher here, folks. Here's, here's the key. The five year statute of limitations on that charge would lapse on Tuesday. That's according to Kendallanean. And so, you know, here we go again, folks. Another situation where Trump is going after his perceived political enemies. I will remind everybody that it was during the first year of the Trump administration. I was there covering it. Donald Trump fired James Comey, who was the FBI director at that time. He was part of that intelligence community that had gone to Trump and said the Russians might have compromising information on you. And then Trump admitted in an interview on NBC News that the reason why he fired James Comey was because of the, quote, Russia thing. So let's bring in, oh, I think we have Mike now. Let's bring in Mike Fanone. Let's talk about Some of this stuff. Mike, how are you, man? Good to see you. I'm good.
- [34:21]
C
How are you?
- [34:21]
B
Good, man. Hey, a lot to talk about, but first of all, your reaction to Trump apparently is going to, they're going to indict. I was going to say Trump's going to indict James Comey, but basically that's what's happening is that James Comey is about to be indicted. And obviously this is something that Trump's wanted for a long time.
- [34:39]
C
Yeah, I mean, no surprise there. I don't know the circumstances. I haven't seen the charging document or any. I don't have any information about what to do specifically. They believe that, that he lied about under oath.
- [34:50]
B
Yeah.
- [34:51]
C
But again, this is something that Trump has telegraphed for quite some time that, that he was going to go after Comey, which, you know, may play well for, for the former FBI director, you know, in the, in that trial.
- [35:10]
B
Yeah, yeah, I suppose. I mean, his defense attorneys can just show all of the times that Trump has gone. I mean, you can't probably physically can't show all of the times Trump has gone after Jim Comey, but you could show those things to demonstrate that there's obviously some malice here. And if somebody could be indicted for lying, I mean, Donald Trump, he would have been in jail a long time ago. But anyway, that. I don't want to take cheap shots here. But, Mike, the other thing that we should get into is this ICE facility shooting. I'm sure you saw this. As somebody who's been in law enforcement, what's your reaction to that? Because, I mean, Cash Patel put out this picture of a bullet with anti ICE on it. As I was saying just a few moments ago, we still don't, we don't have all the details. So drawing conclusions at this point is, is not a great idea. But already J.D. vance, Ted Cruz, a bunch of others have hopped on this. But anyway, what, what are you taking from, from this incident so far?
- [36:06]
C
Well, first, I mean, I, you know, it goes without saying that any type of violence directed at law enforcement or, or anyone for that matter is, is wrong. It's important. And, and we should, you know, immediately condemn it, which, you know, as a former law enforcement officer, I certainly do. I think that, you know, what we're seeing in this investigation is similar to the, you know, the investigation into the murder of Charlie Kirk. Cash Patel and his desire to tweet real time information as they receive it and how reckless that is. I mean, obviously in doing so, he is helping right wing media outlets with a narrative that would suggest that this shooter was, you know, affiliated with, with the left and making it political before we know anything about the shooter, before we know anything about the motivations of the shooter. And, you know, again, that's not doing anything to tamp down the, the temperature in the country. Yeah, I, I fear that situations like this, the way that they've been utilized in the past is that anyone who can, who criticizes ICE as an agency, criticizes the policies of the administration, compares them to, you know, that of the, the Gestapo or compares them to, you know, fascists, that this administration will go after them much in the same way that they went after individuals who said the same things about Mr. Kirk. And I think those are two separate conversations. As a former law enforcement officer, I feel very comfortable talking about how uncomfortable I am with ICE as an agency. Their lack of accountability to the American people and many of the incidents and behaviors displayed by specific agents that I find repulsive, cruel and inappropriate. I mean, it is, you know, about the, the best language that I can come up with to, to describe that.
- [38:45]
B
Yeah, and it is, it's been, it's been repugnant. I mean, the way that the White House and dhs, they try to dunk on these migrants who are being deported, in many cases, they're mixed status families, so the parents might be undocumented, but the kids are citizens. Families are getting ripped apart. And the way these ICE agents have been behaving, wearing masks, not being in unmarked vehicles, being plain clothes, in many cases, it is terrifying to people. And the fact that they're being directed by Stephen Miller to go about these quotas just to scoop up as many people off the street as you can. Of course, people are going to be furious about it. And you can't take away the, can't take away the people's right to say that they're pissed off about it.
- [39:31]
C
Correct? Yeah, but, you know, again, that's my fear. I mean, that's how this administration, that's what they're supposed to react in these situations. But again, you know, I will continue to criticize, you know, specific actions of the administration and, and of the agency itself. And again, the lack of transparency and the lack of accountability that we see, you know, displayed by ice.
- [40:01]
B
Yeah, well, and there's no consistency on their part either. I mean, let's listen to what J.D. vance had to say about this. He said he was talking.
- [40:08]
D
Politicians incur doxing when they encourage us to unmask ICE enforcement officers. What do you think is going to happen when the mayor of Los Angeles encourages violent protesters to get in the face of our law enforcement, what do you think is going to happen? What's going to happen is political violence. And political violence has gotten out of control in this country. We got to stop it, we got to condemn it. And that starts, unfortunately, at the very top of the Democratic Party. If you want to stop political violence, stop attacking our law enforcement as the Gestapo. If you want to stop, stop political violence, stop telling your supporters that everybody who disagrees with you is a Nazi. If you want to stop political violence, look in the mirror. That's the way that we stop political violence in this country. And we got to do it.
- [40:57]
B
Yeah, I mean, Mike, I mean, it's just dripping with hypocrisy there. It's not dripping, it's a gusher. I mean, didn't he once describe Donald Trump as America's Hitler? I mean, he did do that. And of course you are, you were the victim, Mike, of political violence that was inspired and incited by Donald Trump, correct? Yes.
- [41:19]
C
But, you know, I, I also look at, like, let's look at why it is that Americans are referring to ICE as Gestapo. Why are they comparing them, you know, to, to the, you know, to Nazi Germany and to, you know, these secret police? Well, they're unaccountable to the people. They wear masks. You can't identify them. They're not identifying them to the public. We've seen countless actions taken by individual ICE agents that are brutal. You know, we saw, I mean, I'll just, just give you a couple of examples. You know, we had this member of Congress or not a member of Congress, but she's running for Congress. She's, you know, 20 something year old young woman from Chicago. She's running for Illinois's 9th district. And you know, I saw her, she was protesting in an ICE facility. She was doing what protesters do. She was sitting down in front of the entranceway to the facility, trying to block the vehicles from leaving. Not an aggressive act. She was not, you know, actively resisting any officers. She was passively resisting those officers.
- [42:35]
B
Right.
- [42:35]
C
And an officer chose to pick her up and remove her physically and then body slam her to the ground a number of feet away. And I'm going to tell you, you know, why this is not normal. In a normal set of circumstances, a law enforcement agency, you know, would address, you know, the, the protesters or protester, they would give them three verbal warnings, as you know, is directed by law. If at the, you know, conclusion of those three warnings, the individual doesn't comply with the law enforcement officer's orders, then they place them under arrest. And, you know, there's a varying degree of minor charges that can be associated with that, from disorderly conduct to impeding what. Whatever the case may be. Yeah, but that's the normal set of circumstances. Not get out of the way, pick them up, throw them to the ground. And then there's no, no report done, nothing done after that. It's just, you know, move on, carry on with your business. And the other, you know, and these are just recent headlines. The other day there was, you know, a nice standoff where, you know, they had pursued an individual, you know, assuming, based on his immigration status, and were able to apprehend his five year old autistic child. He made it back into the house and then they held that child as sort of, you know, leverage to try to coax the man to come outside, refusing to turn the child back over to his parents or her parents. And, and the American people are seeing this play out in real time. And it's disgusting. Yes, disgusting behavior. It's inhumane. And I, you know, I, I think that when you have a visceral reaction to that, that's the appropriate reaction to have.
- [44:25]
B
Yeah.
- [44:25]
C
You know, even as a cop, you look at that and it's like, what? Why?
- [44:31]
B
Yeah, that's right.
- [44:33]
C
No, there's no justification for that.
- [44:35]
B
No justification. And ICE has been totally out of control and, and, but you can say they've been totally out of control. At the same time, there's no cause for taking a shot at an ICE agent or getting violent with the police officer for political reasons or any other reason for that matter. But the thing that I, that pisses me off, listening to this debate over rhetoric and this conversation about rhetoric and so on. Everybody's saying, let's turn down the temperature. Can we just turn down the temperature of the rhetoric in this country? And so on. And look who's the President of the United States. He just said the other day at Charlie Kirk's memorial service, I hate my opponent. I hate my opponent. And he is the one who incited what took place on January 6. He is the one who said, let's go fight like hell or you're not gonna have a country anymore. Then he said that it was a love fest and he pardoned all of those people. So he has created to me the environment that we are in right now. He's the architect of it.
- [45:40]
C
Yeah, I agree. I mean, I say it all the time. Anytime I talk about political violence. I mean, Obviously, I was there on January 6th. I experienced it firsthand. You know, what this administration, what Donald Trump and his surrogates are capable of. I have moved from, you know, no one has done more to incite political violence in this country than, you know, Donald Trump to no one has done more. No American politician has done more to advocate for political violence. And the reason that I've changed my tone is, you know, he used insightful language in the weeks and months leading up to January 6th. He used insightful language throughout his first term. But on January 20th of this year, Donald Trump pardoned more than 500 violent felons who assaulted law enforcement officers, myself included, on January 6th with no, absolutely no justification. I mean, these are people that committed violent crimes. They, most of them pled guilty, some of them were found guilty, but regardless, they were held accountable and they were sentenced. And, you know, Donald Trump went against J.D. vance, he went against many, many, many members of his party when he offered this blanketed pardon to all of these violent criminals. And the message that he sent was, if you commit acts of violence on my behalf, I will absolve you of all criminal culpability. And that, to me, is advocating for political violence, not just inciting it. He's advocating for political violence, you say?
- [47:19]
B
What gets you off the hook? Yeah. Right. And.
- [47:20]
C
And now, now JD Vance and, and all of these, all the other sycophants who are vying for, you know, Trump's, you know, good graces are. Are doing so in turn. And no one, not one politician on the right seems capable, with a few exceptions. We had Thom Tillis the other day. You had the governor of, of Utah in the aftermath of, of the, you know, Charlie Kirk murder. But no one else seems capable of simply denouncing political violence full stop. It's. We denounce political violence, and it's being caused by people on the left, Democrats, these demonic, disgusting, you know, human beings that. And. And then. And we hate them. And, you know, we're going to, you know, Stephen Miller speech the other day in which he, you know, conjured up his best Joseph Goebbels and, and saying that, you know, we are going to bring essentially the full force of the federal government down and destroy our enemies.
- [48:32]
B
Yeah.
- [48:33]
C
What does that do to lower the temperature?
- [48:36]
B
It's batshit crazy. It's actually crazy. Yeah.
- [48:40]
C
To say it's disingenuous is the understatement of the millennium. I mean, it's just, it's. They.
- [48:46]
B
They're saying, well, they want to point the finger. They don't want to take responsibility for what they've done. And they carry that shame inside of them. I suppose some of them. Not Stephen Miller, he's not sure he's quite human. Although I saw his, his wife the other day said he's a sexual matador. I don't know if you saw that on Fox. Apparently she described. And I, I wanted to vomit right then. But anyway, I, I think they just want to point the finger because they know they're just guilty as hell of this.
- [49:15]
C
I, I, I don't, I can't even begin to surmise like what, what, what is inside their, their minds. I, I think that, you know, I think there are some, you're right, that, that are, they feel a tremendous amount of guilt. I think there's others that, you know, this is all done by design. Yeah, I think that, you know, with a Stephen Miller, you know, this is, this is by, by design. I mean, this is a person who really is a sick individual who, you know.
- [49:51]
B
There'S something wrong with him, lives.
- [49:53]
C
With a great deal of, of hate and, and has no ability to, to empathize.
- [50:03]
B
Yeah, he's a true believer. I mean, they're, this is, this is a, this is a game for them and we're all just, you know, pieces on the, on the chessboard. And I, to me, the more they try to demonize the left for political violence, I, I think that what they're trying to do is they're trying to set up a scenario where people on the right can then act out in retaliation. I think they're right now in the process of creating this permission structure for the right to seek revenge for this stuff. And I think there's some of them who want us in this sort of tit for tat, back and forth violent scenario because they see it as a way for them to accumulate more power. I mean, that to me is, is the scenario that, that worries me.
- [51:01]
C
Yeah, no, I, I mean, I see that with, I mean, that's my biggest fear with, you know, the escalation and the escalatory behavior of, of law enforcement in this country under this administration. I mean, you see it with, you know, the mobilization of the National Guard into American cities onto American streets. And I see that, as, you know, at the administration level, you know, insightful tactics in which they are waiting for an opportunity. They're waiting for protests to turn violent.
- [51:36]
B
Yes.
- [51:37]
C
So that they can, you know, in turn justify even more escalatory behavior. Declaring martial law, you know, removing power structure from locally elected officials like they did in Washington, D.C. yeah. You know.
- [51:55]
B
Yeah, yeah. I was gonna say, Mike, before you go, we gotta. Let me ask you about Kimmel because you saw he was back on the airwaves last night. This is what Kimmel. This is one moment that I really liked, and it fits into our conversation.
- [52:09]
C
This show is not important. What is important is that we get to live in a country that allows us to have a show like this.
- [52:23]
B
I mean, you know, I score one for the legacy media. I guess, you know, for once somebody did not get their ass canned for telling the truth. I. Mike, you often like to say that the best way to separate yourself from a job in legacy media is to tell the truth. Kimmel. Kimmel got back. Kimmel got back in there because of people power, because people said, I'm gonna cancel my ABC or Disney plus or Hulu plus and all of those things. But what Kimmel said is very important. And, and it goes back to what you're saying earlier. We need to be able to criticize these turkeys. I mean, if they take that away from us, then we're completely screwed.
- [53:04]
C
Yeah, I, I couldn't agree more. And I mean, there's, there's so much more in that monologue.
- [53:10]
B
It was great. Yeah.
- [53:11]
C
I mean, Jimmy Kimmel is such a class act and, and I have a tremendous amount of admiration for him. I don't watch late night television. That's way past my bedtime.
- [53:20]
B
Me too.
- [53:21]
C
But the clips are good. Just watching that. As somebody who, you know, has experienced criticism from the highest levels of our government, Donald Trump once called me a. In response to my testimony about, you know, my experience and the experience of my colleagues on January 6th, and then you can imagine everything that ensues after that. And, and all of the, you know, the threats and the criticism and the things that I'm sure that Jimmy Kimmel has endured, but to still be able to come on there and handle things in such a classy way with so much compassion and even empathy for, for his critics. That's something that I struggle with, you know, every single day. And we need more of that. You know, we need, we need more of that, you know, more people like that who are able to, to rise above, so to speak. Because at some point, you know, I say it all the time, like, at some point this country is going to need its Kumbayo Kumbaya moment in which we can all come together. It just unfortunately, you know, I'm not going to be the one spearheading that. That effort.
- [54:37]
B
Yeah. And we might have to wait until, oh, 2029 before that happens. But, yeah, Mike, I'll be joining, I think, in about an hour on your show, so I better let you go so you can prepare. But, hey, man, always great to talk to you. I knew you were perfect to talk about this, so thanks. Can't wait.
- [54:51]
C
All right, buddy, I'll see you.
- [54:52]
B
All right. Thank you. Soon. I'm coming up on Mike Fanone show coming up a little later. He's on substack. He's on YouTube. He's here, he's there, he's everywhere. So I'll be talking to Mike. I'll be one of his guests coming up in about an hour. So don't miss that. In the meantime, I do want to say I got to show you one more thing. And this was. This was over at the White House, the colonnade. The famous colonnade over at the White House. It's. It's no longer the West Wing from the TV show anymore. It's now what I call the worst wing. When Donald Trump is in the White House, this is along the colony, they lined up all of these pictures of all the presidents, and then in Joe Biden's place, they took out his picture and they put in the auto pen. And then there, of course, is Donald Trump once again. But, okay, this, this. Could this be any more juvenile? This is. These are the people at the White House right now. These are the people running the free world right now. These clowns who, I guess they do this. Somebody came up with this idea. Maybe it was Trump who came up with it. There are all the presidents, and then there's the auto pen picture. Can somebody get arrested for defacing the White House is the question that I had ever since Donald Trump got back into the Oval Office. You know, he's turned the Oval Office into Liberace's wet dream. He's got the. The tacky gold everywhere in the Oval Office. It looks like something out of, you know, Versailles, if you're on crystal mass. He's got the car dealership looking. American flags around the White House. I mean, talk about overcompensating. You know, we. We. Okay, we get it. You like to hug flags. We don't need giant flags all around the White House to let us know that you're a patriotic person, which, by the way, I'm not even. I, I could do another Jim's take on why I don't think he's a patriotic person. Because if you love America, then you love the America that we are today. The Diverse, multicultural, opinionated, vocal, free speech loving. That's the America that we are. And Donald Trump, since coming back into the White House, they're also building this cockamamie ballroom. Is anybody in charge in this town? Or is everything. Do we have checks and balances anymore? Or is just everything been seated over to this washed up reality TV show host? Everything, all of the authority is just now in his. In his possession. He can do. He can do whatever crazy shit he wants to do to the confines of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, and nobody's going to do anything about it. He can line up all of the pictures of the presidents and then put a picture of an auto pen in Joe Biden's place. And you know, the implication there, of course, is that Joe Biden wasn't really president. This is the stupid shit that they do on Fox. Joe Biden wasn't really president. He wasn't really signing things. He was just using his auto pen and that sort of thing. He was. Yes, he was old. We get it, we get it. You've said this a thousand times, Fox. You said this a thousand times. Jesse Waters and Greg Gutfeld and all of the other goofballs on the right who have talked over and over again about Joe Biden was old as shit. Yes, we get it. We understand. Point taken. But is anybody going to have a real conversation about how Donald Trump is old as shit, too? He's old. He's washed up. He's obviously implicated in the Epstein files. You know, we have a statue. The whole world saw the video of the Donald Trump Jeffrey Epstein friendship statue in front of the Capitol. And so, you know, I don't know if we want to show that video. Can we show that video again for illustration purposes? But, you know, what is stopping the next president of the United States? There it is right there. Oh, we look at that lovely statue dedicated to the friendship of Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein. Ain't that a peach? Ain't that something? And then, of course, they took it down because they were so. The National Park Service was so pissed off that they had to take it down, even though the people who were behind that statue had a permit saying that the statue could be there for several days, but they took it down anyway. What is stopping the next president of the United States from saying, okay, yeah, okay, you want to have a whole line of presidents along the colonnade and then put an auto pen where Joe Biden's face used to be. I have an idea for the next Democratic president who I think will be coming into office in January of 2029. Just keep that same line of faces of all the presidents and keep the auto pen there for Joe Biden if you want to. Everybody can get their yucks from that. The Joe Biden auto pen can be there for them. But instead of Donald Trump, instead of that bug shot looking picture of Donald Trump being there for 47. I have an idea, I have an idea for what that picture could be at the end of all of that. Before you put the picture of the next Democratic president there, I think you should put a picture of Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein. I think the next Democratic president of the United States when he gets to or she gets to Washington D.C. should take every picture of Donald Trump in the nation's capital and replace that picture with a photograph of Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein. It should be the next president of the United States should say as a Democrat, if we still have elections, that any photograph and this could be an executive order. I hereby decree by executive order that any photograph of Donald Trump that ever exists in the United States of America in a federal building, that that picture should be a photograph of Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein. I, I am dead serious. I think that's what the next president of the United States should do. The next president United States should decree, since we're going to be in the business of decreeing, that all photographs of Donald Trump from here on out Post January of 2029, they must be a picture of Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein signed. And then you can use an auto pen. I, you know, maybe the next president should say everything should that picture. That would be a perfect picture. That would be an absolute. And especially the Donald Trump with the, with the giant Joe Pesci eyebrows. Remember the film JFK when Joe Pesci plays Jack Ruby and he has the giant eyebrows. That's what Donald Trump has, these giant Joe Pesci eyebrows here. But anyway, I digress. That picture should replace every photograph of Donald Trump after January of 2029 when it's President Newsom or President Jasmine Crockett or whoever becomes the President of January 2029. Free suggestion from your pal Jim. Subscribe and join the conversation. Make sure you, you keep watching. Jimmy Kim will make those ratings go sky high. Apparently the ratings were sky high last night for Jimmy and, and thanks everybody for watching. My thanks to Jess Michaels who is always wonderful when she comes on this program. And my thanks to Mike Fanone as well. Still reporting from Washington, I'm Jim Acosta. Have a good evening. Thanks for watching.