BREAKING NEWS: The Latest in Killing of Charlie Kirk with guests Mary Trump, John Fugelsang and Mike Fanone

Summary

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The Jim Acosta Show: “BREAKING NEWS: The Latest in Killing of Charlie Kirk”

Guests: Mary Trump, John Fugelsang, Mike Fanone
Date: September 11, 2025
Host: Jim Acosta

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Overview

This special episode unpacks the political, cultural, and emotional aftermath of the assassination of conservative activist Charlie Kirk, which occurred on a university campus in Utah. Amid breaking news and murky facts, Jim Acosta speaks with Mary Trump (psychologist and author), John Fugelsang (comedian and commentator), and Mike Fanone (former DC Metropolitan Police officer and CNN analyst). The conversation explores the climate of political violence, the escalation of rhetoric, the weaponization of tragedy, and how Americans might pull back from an ever-steepening slope toward reprisals and division. The episode also weaves in reflections on September 11 and the vanishing vision of national unity.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. State of the Investigation and Known Facts

• Timestamps: [00:00]–[03:45], [38:50]–[42:45]
• Charlie Kirk was shot and killed at a Utah university; the FBI has released images of a person of interest but has announced no suspect or motive ([01:51]).
• The suspected shooter fled the scene, possibly a trained marksman given the single, lethal long-distance shot.
• Authorities recovered a high-powered rifle ([01:51]).
• The investigation is ongoing and in early stages ([39:14] Fanone).

2. Immediate Political Reactions and Rhetoric

• Timestamps: [00:37]–[06:22]; [39:14]–[42:45]
• Mary Trump highlights the split reaction:
  • Democrats uniformly condemned political violence and mourned Kirk.
  • Republicans and right-wing media instantly blamed "the left," stoking political divide without evidence ([01:51] Trump, [01:51] Acosta).
  • Figures like Elon Musk and Jesse Watters immediately claimed the left was responsible, ratcheting up rhetoric ([03:45], [05:19] Acosta).
• Mary Trump: “They are literally the ones who started the fire...we do this country a disservice if we pretend otherwise.” ([04:35]-[05:19])

3. Danger of Political Violence and Irresponsible Rhetoric

• Timestamps: [03:51]–[08:51]; [41:59]–[45:56]
• Mary Trump and Mike Fanone warn of the escalating “slippery slope,” where violence is both enabled and immediately exploited.
• Media (Fox News, specifically Jesse Watters) and Trump are singled out for calling for vengeance and declaring war on opponents, further fueling potential cycles of reprisal ([05:19]-[06:22] Acosta, [44:50] Fanone).
• Trump is described as a “man of grievances and vengeance”—a leader who escalates division and gives “people permission to be their worst selves” ([04:35]-[05:19] Trump).

4. No Justification for Violence

• Timestamps: [06:22]–[08:51]; [48:49]–[50:00]
• Both Acosta and his guests consistently reject any justification for Kirk’s murder.
• “There is no justification for what happened...To that degree, I don't care what Charlie Kirk stands for, what his rhetoric is.” (Mary Trump, [07:03])
• John Fugelsang: “Shooting Charlie Kirk makes you an even worse person than Charlie Kirk.” ([25:14]–[25:58])
• Mike Fanone: “I still harbor no ill will, nor do I celebrate what happened to Charlie Kirk...People like Jesse Watters, they don’t give a damn about Charlie Kirk...They care about monopolizing this moment.” ([49:01]–[50:00])

5. Worry about Cycles of Retaliation

• Timestamps: [09:40]–[11:17]; [50:00]–[52:08]
• The fear is that, rather than a somber national reckoning, this moment could trigger tit-for-tat violence or collectivist blame, with the machinery of government and media fueling the spiral.
• Acosta: “We could be facing a pretty dangerous moment...reprisals back and forth...the State Department warning foreigners against praising the death of Charlie Kirk.” ([09:40])
• Fanone worries Trump and surrogates may use this to justify repression or curtailment of rights: “Will they start arresting people...because they feel that language is insightful, and use this moment to legitimize their quashing...First Amendment rights?” ([51:05])

6. Charlie Kirk’s Role and Legacy

• Timestamps: [06:22]–[08:51]; [48:16]–[48:49]
• Guests acknowledge Kirk’s notoriety for divisive rhetoric, but insist this neither justifies violence nor should prevent honest discussion about the environment he fostered.
• “We have to be really honest about what's going on here. Not to excuse or justify it...but just so we can understand the root causes..." (Mary Trump, [11:17])
• John Fugelsang: The tragedy is Kirk (and his ideological movement) will now be “sanctified,” preventing any possibility of growth or redemption ([25:58]–[29:46]).

7. Weaponization of Victimhood and Martyrdom

• Timestamps: [17:27]–[18:56]; [25:47]–[29:46]
• Discussion of how Kirk’s death could be repurposed as fuel for further radicalization—"they're going to turn him into a martyr and seek vengeance" ([16:27] Acosta).
• “Now because of another faceless coward with a gun...Charlie Kirk’s never going to have a chance to grow beyond that… And now, because of this, his sins are going to be sanctified.” (John Fugelsang, [25:58]–[28:13])

8. Double Standards and Gaslighting

• Timestamps: [08:05]–[09:40]; [48:49]–[50:00]
• Killings of Democratic lawmakers, e.g. in Minnesota, quickly dismissed as “lone actor” events on the right when the perpetrator supported Trump; such benefit of the doubt is not extended when violence targets the right ([08:05], [17:27] Trump).
• Media calls and GOP officials immediately blame the left, even in absence of motive, and escalate tribal antagonism ([42:45]–[44:50] Fanone, [44:50] Acosta).

9. Rise of Christian Nationalism and Hypocrisy

• Timestamps: [24:27]–[36:51]
• John Fugelsang’s new book, “Separation of Church and Hate,” is discussed as it relates directly to the moment: misuse of Christianity by the right to justify intolerance or violence is fundamentally un-Christian and ahistorical.
• Fugelsang: “If your church is not saying love your enemies, but it’s saying who your enemies are, you’re not really in a church.” ([30:44])
• Fugelsang argues for reclaiming religion from authoritarians and aligning progressive Christians, non-Christians, and atheists against Christian nationalist abuse ([34:43]–[36:51]).

10. Trump’s Mental and Physical Fitness

• Timestamps: [19:51]–[23:03]
• Mary Trump (as psychologist and family member) observes Trump losing narrative control, visibly stressed, and potentially experiencing both neurological and psychiatric decline ([20:20]–[23:03]).

11. Gun Violence as an Endemic Crisis

• Timestamps: [13:17]–[14:08]; [53:19]–[54:39]
• Both the Kirk shooting and other recent shootings are part of a larger epidemic of gun violence that is becoming normalized and, disturbingly, politicized to the point of desensitization.
• “We are in the midst of a gun violence crisis in this country.” ([54:47] Acosta)

12. Recalling National Unity — Lessons from 9/11

• Timestamps: [54:47]–[end]
• Acosta offers a moving reflection on the 24th anniversary of September 11, contrasting the post-9/11 sense of unity with today’s division, lamenting the loss and calling for self-sustained, grassroots efforts to recommit to tolerance and democracy ([54:47]-[end]).
  • “There have been moments in our history where we have come together... We've got to figure out a way to have just a little more faith in one another... It is up to us to pull back from this notion that you can have reprisals going back and forth. That is the future that I worry about. We're on the edge of a cliff right now, folks.” ([end])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Mary Trump:

  “They're not just pouring gasoline on a raging fire. They are literally the ones who started the fire… we do this country a disservice if we pretend otherwise.” ([04:35])

  “This is the slippery slope. As soon as you decide that somebody who doesn't support you... is open to be targeted in these ways, then how do you close that Pandora's box?” ([07:03])

• Jim Acosta:

  “We cannot go into this spiraling cycle of retribution and reprisals. I think it's just so dangerous for our country.” ([16:27])
  “There's no place for political violence in this country... But right now there is apparently a place for political violence in this country. And we need to confront that truth and we need to reject it at all costs.” ([end])

• John Fugelsang:

  “Shooting Charlie Kirk makes you an even worse person than Charlie Kirk.” ([25:14])

  “Charlie Kirk’s never going to have a chance to grow beyond that... Violence doesn’t work. What works, I find with Christian nationalists, is knowing the Bible, non-violence, humor, and showing up in much greater numbers on election day.” ([25:58]-[28:13])

  “If your church is not saying love your enemies, but it's saying who your enemies are, you're not really in a church.” ([30:44])

• Mike Fanone:

  “No one has done more to foster political violence...than Donald Trump. Unfortunately, his statements yesterday did absolutely nothing to bring calm in this moment. He did the opposite.” ([39:14])

  “People like Jesse Watters, they don’t give a damn about Charlie Kirk...They care about monopolizing this moment.” ([49:01])

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Timestamps: Important Segments

• [00:00] – [03:45]: Episode opens; facts about Kirk's shooting, the unknowns, initial responses.
• [03:45] – [08:51]: Rhetoric and figures blamed; discussion of political violence escalation.
• [09:40] – [14:08]: Reflection on Kirk, threats of reprisals, what is lost when debate turns fatal.
• [14:08] – [19:51]: Rise of Trump 2.0, fascist playbook, fears of rapid democratic erosion.
• [24:27] – [36:51]: Interview with John Fugelsang; on violence, Christianity, and reclaiming faith.
• [38:16] – [54:39]: Mike Fanone on police investigation, media exploitation, political incitement, normalization of violence.
• [54:47] – [end]: Acosta's 9/11 reflection and closing plea for unity and faith in one another.

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Tone

The episode is unsparing and somber, veering from analytical to urgent, but with moments of vulnerability, humor, and deep concern. The speakers are direct and, at times, emotional—especially about the normalization of violence, the cynical exploitation of tragedy, and the existential threat to democracy. Despite dark assessments, there is a throughline call to reject hate and rediscover national unity.

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For Listeners

This episode is essential for understanding not only the facts and political context surrounding the assassination of Charlie Kirk, but also the wider crisis of political violence, the dangers of unhinged media rhetoric, and the urgent need for Americans to resist cycles of division and revenge. Guests advocate for critical reflection, honest self-examination, and commitment to non-violence as the only meaningful way forward.

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Transcript

[A]

FOREIGN welcome to the Jim Acosta show and we are following the latest in the killing of conservative activist Charlie Kirk. The FBI is expected to hold a news conference at any moment with some new details on a possible suspect in the shooting. My big guest this hour is Mary Trump. Mary, great to see you. Thanks for doing this. You know, I, I read what you've been saying about what took place yesterday. You've been calling this the, the slipperiest of slopes and it feels like that's where we are right now.

[B]

Yeah, Jim, first of all, it's, it's really great to be with you. It's been too long and there has been so much going on and yesterday was a very dark day. Followed today by another one, the 24th anniversary of September 11th with just kind of mind blowing. I think that it's always understandable in circumstances such as this that people have a hard time knowing how to react. At least decent human beings do. And they want to take a beat and they, they want to make sure that they're assessing the situation properly. But we're seeing it immediately. We've got Democratic lawmakers to a person condemning what happened to Charlie Kirk, a man who was murdered for, for exercising his First Amendment rights, regardless of what you think about what he had to say, condemning political violence. On the other hand, you have the President of the United States of America and pretty much everybody else in the Republican Party blaming Democrats and their rhetoric for Charlie Kirk's murder, despite the fact that we know nothing about who committed this act of violence or what his motive may have been.

[A]

Yeah, no, I mean, Mary, we should say that at the start of this and for folks who may watch the recording later and so on, as of this moment, 4 o' clock Eastern in the United States, we don't know who this person is. We don't know if they even have a suspect or, or know of a suspect, what the motivation behind that suspect might be. I mean, I'll just give a little bit of details from this is According to the Associated Press, the FBI released photos of a person of interest in the shooting of Charlie Kirk as investigators are appealing to the public for tips. We have a picture of who they think is a person of interest. I suppose at this point, the suspect is believed to have jumped off a roof and fled into a neighborhood after firing one shot and has not yet been identified. Authorities said today previously they announced they recovered a high powered rifle that may have been used in the deadly attack. And, and Mary, there's some video we're showing this of what looks like somebody running across a rooftop. But, I mean, this was just also shocking to watch unfold yesterday. You know, we were all waiting there for about an hour or so to get the. The final news that he had died from this attack. This. This one single shot looked like it came from some 200 yards away. It must have been maybe a trained marksman, somebody who had sniper training. We have no idea. But, I mean, obviously, it would have to be a pretty darn good shot to do this in one shot. But, I mean, the way. Just to circle back to your comments on this, Mary, the way that the far right people on Fox seized on this immediately to make political hay out of it, I'm really worried about where we're going, the path that we're going down in this country. Like you said, there were Democratic politicians far and wide who came forward and said, we mourn Charlie Kirk. We're thinking about him, and so on. And Elon Musk is saying that the left is the party of murder, and it's just a massive disconnect, and it's disturbing.

[B]

The left is the party of murder, and we need to make the choice to fight or die.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So there's so much wrong with what's happening right now, and we're seeing the intersection of violent political rhetoric and the lack of sane gun policies in this country. But getting back to the violent rhetoric part, I. I don't think an objective observer would come to the conclusion that it's either a both sides thing or it's a problem entirely created by the left. I mean, I'm. I am on the left, so I guess in that sense, I'm not objective, but I can also assess the situation and see how. How much more violent the rhetoric has gotten, certainly since Donald has been in power.

[A]

He.

[B]

He is a man of grievances and vengeance. He gives people permission to be their worst selves. This has only escalated over the last few years, and we can say that right now, in this instance, people like Donald, who, you know, is an extraordinarily powerful person with an enormous platform. Elon Musk has 225.7 million Twitter followers. So this is. This is not equivalent anyway. But they're not just pouring gasoline on a raging fire. They are literally the ones who started the fire. So I think we do this country a disservice if we pretend otherwise.

[A]

Yeah. And I do want to get to that and how we should respond to it. My personal view is that we can't fall into the trap. We can't fall into the trap of responding to hate with hate, as, as infuriating as it is, as much as we want to be angry and want to respond and, and that sort of a thing, I mean, we should call this stuff out. There's no question. I mean, Fox's Jesse Waters was saying, we're going to avenge Charlie's death. They're at war with us, whether we want to accept it or not, everyone's accountable. We're watching what they're saying on television, and who's saying what. And then Trump, you know, for his part, obviously, he never misses a moment, to miss a moment, and he's just never going to be that kind of consoler in chief, that uniter that this country needs. And he says radical left political violence has hurt too many innocent people and taken too many lives. You know, he's calling this radical left political violence before we even know what it was. It's just so irresponsible.

[B]

Well, that plus the threat to hunt everybody down. Who's implicated in this? And what does that mean? Implicated how? Because we. We speak ill of Donald Trump or we speak ill of Charlie Kirk? And I mean, this is another issue that is definitely uncomfortable for people. I think we do need to be honest about what Charlie Cook stood for, Kirk stood for, and the kinds of rhetoric he engaged in, not. Not as a justification. There is no justification for what happened to him. This man was murdered in cold blood. I. And to that point, I don't care what the motive was.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And it. And to that degree, I don't care what Charlie Cook stands. Kirk stands for, what his rhetoric is. However, we can't separate the two things. Again, he's not responsible for what happened to him, but he was a significant part of how the right has been approaching the divisiveness of the American people, how the right has been, again, with Donald at the lead, approaching the view that Democrats are the problem, that Democrats are the problem, the fascists, that Democrats are not worthy of protection. And that's. That's the slippery slope. Like what? As soon as you decide that somebody who doesn't support you or, or stands up against you is open to be targeted in these ways, then how do you, how do you close that Pandora's box?

[A]

I agree with you. And, and listen, I mean, Trump, Jesse Waters, all these folks, Elon Musk, they're overlooking what took place in Minnesot earlier this year with the targeted killing of a state lawmaker there and her husband. And it was at that time that Trump refused to call Tim Walls The Governor of Minnesota saying it would be a waste of time. And he called Tim Walls a whack job or something like that. And I. To me, Mary, we just cannot. We're just never going to be able to count on Donald, as you call him, to be that kind of a leader. He's just never, he, it's just not in him. It's not who he is. He's. He's practiced this art of pushing our buttons and dividing us for what, I mean, almost this entire century.

[B]

Yeah, well, I would say, you know, probably for his entire adult life, but it matters more now, obviously. And no, he will never change. He's been the same person for decades, and quite frankly, he's been rewarded for being this person. So it is a fool's errand to suggest that he will ever change. I see people still giving him the benefit of the doubt, and it is mystifying to me, because how much more evidence do we need, really, that this is who he is and this kind of behavior benefits him, just as the divisiveness he is largely responsible for stoking in this country over the last decade benefits him and protects him.

[A]

Yeah. And, you know, this, this whole situation, I mean, you know, I, you don't want to blame anybody for it. And I certainly don't blame Charlie Kirk for what happened to him. I, I'm very sorry for what happened to him and, and his family. And I, I, I, I'm working on a substack as we speak that I might put out tomorrow. I want to think about, I want to think deeply about it. But, you know, first of all, I wish he were here to be there for his, his wife and kids. And second of all, I wish you were here, because it's better to have him here, to have that kind of debate in person, person to person, and something is lost when we see acts of political violence like this. It takes us down a path that I think it, you know, it really is. I think it's destabilizing for this country. And I think what we all experienced yesterday was we all sort of took a breath and realized we could be facing a pretty dangerous moment in this country where we just might see reprisals back and forth. I mean, the State Department was warning people earlier today. Did you see this, Mary? A top State Department official said that they're warning foreigners, quote, foreigners in the US against praising the death of Charlie Kirk, as if anybody's going to do that besides people who are just out of their mind. And to me, this person said I want to underscore that foreigners who glorify violence and hatred are not welcome visitors to our country when the state, when our own government is putting out warnings to people. Watch what you say about Charlie Kirk. I just think that it's a disturbing and worrying sign.

[B]

It's extraordinarily disturbing and worrying, especially since it's so complicated. I mean, that. How many. How many amendments of the Constitution are they going to go after? My goodness. So now we're not even allowed to express an opinion. And you could say that one of the reasons this happened was because Charlie Kirk was exercising his First Amendment right in the context of eight culture of, Of a. Of a society that is increasingly preferencing those who engage in violent rhetoric. Again, not to blame him, but we have to be really honest about what's going on here. Not, not to excuse or justify it, because that is. That's another slippery slope, quite frankly. But just so we can understand the root causes and, you know, we can go back to what happened to Paul Pelosi, Nancy Pelosi's husband, when she was still speaker of the House. He was viciously attacked in his own home by a man wielding a hammer. And the right, including one of my cousins, glorified in it and mocked Paul Pelosi for having almost been murdered by a madman, essentially.

[A]

Yeah. So Donald Trump used to make jokes about it. He used to joke about it, remember, ad on the camera.

[B]

And so. So that functions as a way of sort of normalizing it. And that's another danger here is. Is it. It's like school shootings. There was a school shooting yesterday that got no attention.

[A]

No attention. I did it on my show, but.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, right, exactly. But nobody else would have paid attention to it either because not enough people were victimized by it or something.

[A]

Well, and it should be noted, what happened to Charlie Kirk yesterday was a school shooting.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

It happened on the campus of a university. I mean, and so, I mean, we're continuing to see that. And we should have that conversation about gun violence. We need to talk about that. And as a viewer is saying right now, we still don't know why he was murdered. We don't know. We just don't know. We don't know what. We don't know. And Mary, we. I booked you to come on, and I've been begging you for a long, long time, and you're very busy and all that stuff, and I'm so glad that you're here, but I did this before all of this took place. Yesterday. And one of the things I wanted to talk to you about while I have you, is what has been your assessment of Trump 2.0? Because I covered Trump 1.0 at the White House. I was face to face with him and so on. I think this is sort of why you and I have a little bit of a connection, because we got to know, we know him pretty well. Not as. I don't know him as well as you do, but we got to. To know him pretty well. Yeah, it's, it's much more dangerous this time around, I think.

[B]

Oh, without.

[A]

Is that your sense, too?

[B]

Oh, without question. I said back in 2020 and thinking that, you know, Donald was only going to run in 2020, wasn't going to run ever again, that if he got back into the White House, it would be the end of the American exper. Experiment. And here we are five years later, and it took, it took about four years to find out if the insurrection he incited against his own government was successful. The answer is yes. So not only are we dealing with the fact that 74 million Americans decided that it was a good idea to put an insurrectionist and essentially traitor to his country back into the Oval Office. His, the people surrounding him had four years. Actually, they started, probably started planning this in 2017, so almost 10 years to plan ahead. And we are seeing the fruits of that labor in the, in the fulfillment of the promise, if you want to call it that, of the fascist playbook project 2025. And you know, Jim, I think you and I have known this for a long time. Donald Trump is a symptom of a much larger problem. I mean, yeah, he's problematic too, of course, but he is surrounded by people who actually know what they're doing, who to whom he has ceded enormous power so that he can enrich himself or keep the loyalty of the base or whatever his motives might be. So we are seeing the systematic playing out of their, their dream for a unitary executive, a country that is white supremacist, white nationalist, Christian nationalists, a theocratic apartheid state, whatever their version of, of an American paradise, which of course would be the end of our democracy and the end of our constitutional government. So I knew this was coming, as I think anybody who's been paying close attention over the last year knew would know that if he did win in 2024, this is what would happen. What has alarmed me, and I'm a little embarrassed to say I, I didn't, I, I wasn't prepared for just how quickly everything would be dismantled.

[A]

Yes, I, I agree with you. And what makes what's happening right now all the more worrying is that, I mean, we've already seen over the last seven months they've learned their lessons from the first term. And, and we're seeing that, you know, in the way that they've conducted these ICE raids, the way they have sent the National Guard into American cities with plans to send more, more National Guard troops into other cities. And the way he's talking about getting retribution for Charlie Kirk now with the way they've been conducting themselves, I think that should worry every American that, you know, they're going to turn him into a martyr and seek vengeance, as Jesse Waters was saying, and go after Americans and use the instruments of government to do so. You have the State Department already warning so called foreigners to be careful about what you say about Charlie Kirk. I mean, this should concern every American. We cannot go into this spiraling cycle of retribution and reprisals. I think it's just so dangerous for our country.

[B]

Yeah. And I think that's why it's so important to keep the context in mind. You mentioned the Democratic lawmakers who were targeted. One actually was assassinated and her husband was murdered in their own home. As soon as it was discovered that the assassin was a right wing religious extremist, there was no discussion of that anymore on the right. He was a lone actor and had nothing to do with anybody else. It didn't matter what he believed. It didn't matter that he supported Donald Trump.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You do not have. That will not happen if we find out that the shooter in this instance was politically motivated from the left, that it will be used as an excuse to unleash horrors. And I think it is. That's one of the reasons why it's a little troubling to see people, There are people out there who are celebrating this and it's, and it's got to stop because that doesn't help. It doesn't help anybody. And it just, it says volumes about who you are as a person. But you know, in terms of reply, the reprisals are all going to be at the hands of the people who actually have power now. And it will be officially sanctioned because the person leading the movement of grievance and vengeance is Donald and he's sitting in the Oval Office. So that, that is deeply alarming to me as well.

[A]

Yeah. And Mary, I gotta ask you, what do you think about the Epstein files? Have you ever seen Donald, as you call him, in the jam that he's in? I mean, just today The UK had to get rid of its ambassador to the US over his links to Jeffrey Epstein. Apparently he had written some emails to Jeffrey Epstein saying, I think the world of you. I feel hopeless and furious about what has happened. Your friends stay with you and love you. I mean, these emails I guess were published in the sun newspaper and they were sent to Jeffrey Epstein after Jeffrey Epstein was indicted by a grand jury in 2006. This is all according to National Public Radio, but I mean it's just, it just goes to show you that the tentacles of this, of this scandal are far reaching and we're still learning new details every day. And I, I personally have never seen him in a jam like this and I think he's, he's freaking out.

[B]

Oh yeah, I, you're, you're 100, right? He, for the first time perhaps in his life has lost control of the narrative and his usual tactics of stonewalling or lying or throwing a tantrum aren't working. And, and the fascinating thing about it to me is it's not because people like you and I aren't letting this drop, which we're not, because it's important and the American people deserve to know what's in those files. It's because of Donald's base won't drop it.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

They feel betrayed, they feel lied to. He promised them, he made it part of his platform that he was going to release the Epstein files because it was going to expose the globalist and the elites at the upper echelons of the Democratic Party. And now he's just saying nothing to see here move along and, and they're not buying it and nobody's buying it. And he has painted himself into a corner. This is a debacle of his own making. Much like, you know, the fact that he's single handedly taking our economy and he can change the subject and it's probably driving him crazy.

[A]

Yeah. And I, and the other thing I have to ask you about is his health. I, he does not look good to me. I don't know what's going on. When he vanished for those four or five days, whatever it was, and then the bag went out the window and they lied about the bag back about.

[B]

The, it was, it was AI apparently.

[A]

It was so strange. And they were showing some video this morning, I guess during the 911 remembrance where he didn't look so hot there. I, it does not look great to me. I, maybe, you know, he needs a nap. Maybe he just needs a cookie, I don't know.

[B]

But Pacifier would be good.

[A]

Maybe.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I. I've seen speculation from people who know better than I about these things that the. His right fa. The right side of his face is sagging. And that could be indicative of TIAs, like, I guess, sort of. That presented sort of mini strokes. You know, we know that he has edema, swelling of his ankles. That is indic of other things. So I think there. There are potentially three. Three things going on, some neurological issues. And, you know, my grandfather had very bad Alzheimer's that for at least 10 or 15 years. And he was around Donald's age when he. His condition worsened rapidly. Might have been a little younger than Donald. We also know that he's not a healthy person in general. He doesn't exercise, he eats, has a horrible diet. He definitely has some kind of sleep disorder because he drinks like a dozen Diet Cokes a day. I'm not speculating about any other substances, but caffeine addiction is a thing, and it disrupts sleep. And the one thing I can speak to is that he's somebody who for decades now has had undiagnosed, untreated, and severe psychiatric disorders. And when you don't treat something, it only worsens over time. And some of the things that make such disorders worse are massive amounts of stress, for example, plus other comorbidities, you know, whether it's physical or neurological problems he's having.

[A]

Yeah, well, Mary, I. I wish we could just go on. I don't want to hold you up because I know you've got a show to do and it's been hugely successful and everybody should check out Mary on Substack. It's kind of wild that you and I are both on Substack. We should do this more often.

[B]

You really should. I'll have to have you on my. My channel. Next up.

[A]

Happy to do it anytime. Just ask. And it's such a thrill to get back connected with you and really just excited and thrilled to see you doing so well and thriving on this platform. So it's a great place. I mean, you know, independent media is a wonderful place to be right now.

[B]

I think it. And it's the future, so I'm glad we're here now. And, Jim, it's wonderful to see you. I apologize it took so long, but I kind of went into hiding for a little bit. But I'm back.

[A]

I know. I know every. That's okay. Everybody got to take a break every once in a while. Take a little mental break. Whatever you want to call it. It's it's okay to do, but.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Yeah, we'll do it from time to time. But Mary, let's do it again soon. Thanks a lot.

[B]

All right, thanks so much, Jim.

[A]

Take care, Mary. Thanks. That's Mary Trump. She and I have had so many great conversations over the years at my old place and hopefully we'll do it again at my new place. And speaking of somebody I really enjoy talking to is John Fugal, saying I want to bring him in if I can. John is the author of an exciting new book that just came out. Everybody knows John. He's a comedian, he's an actor. He's. He's here, he's there, he's everywhere. And now he's on this program. John, great to see you.

[C]

Hello, Mr. Acosta. Thank you so much. What a pleasure.

[A]

It's a pleasure to be with you. And I want to, I want to plug your book because it is so important. And, and I was just saying to Mary, we did the booking before everything that happened with Charlie Kirk. Same with you. But I do want to talk about the book Separation of Church and Hate. A Sane Person's Guide to Taking Back the Bible. It's such a timely idea for a book right now, considering what you're seeing on the, on the right right now. The rise of the Christian right. And I do want to get into that. But I guess your thoughts on Charlie Kirk. I saw you posted on X. Do these idiots even realize that shooting Charlie Kirk makes you an even worse person than Charlie Kirk? We should dote. We don't know what happened in terms of the motivation behind the shooter and so on.

[C]

And that was posted before Charlie had died as well. I posted that when I knew he had been shot, but before I, I knew he had passed. It got equal hate from the far left and the far right.

[A]

Yeah, no, I hear you. And, but the point behind it is, and I think there's something to it is we got to get a hold of ourselves, you know, and, and there's just no point. You know, people on the right, they can do what they are going to do. And, and we can't stop the Jesse Waters of the world and the stuff that they spew and so on, but we can control what we do.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And to me, I, I just, I, I think there's just no, there should be no tolerance for political violence whatsoever in this country if that's in fact, indeed what occurred out in Utah. But your thoughts on this?

[C]

Well, I was raised by an ex nun who had worked as a Nurse with lepers in Malawi and an ex Franciscan brother who, who taught history and non violence and worshiped God and Dorothy Day and Dr. King. And I was raised to believe that Christianity was about the teachings and commandments of Christ which centers around not using violence to solve our problems. Now we don't know anything about the ideology of this murderer. And on the one hand you've got people canonizing Mr. Kirk, who I had my dealings with and he came at me, I, I, you know, I tossed with him and, and, and then folks on the left who seem to think he somehow deserved being murdered for his corrosive ideology, you can say all the things he said. And I don't need to go into Charlie Kirk's long litany and resume of, of racist and anti woman comments. They're out there. And now because of another faceless coward with a gun, Charlie Kirk's never going to have a chance to grow beyond that. Charlie Kirk is never going to have a chance to open his heart, to grow as a person, to open his mind. He's not going to get to lose some debates and watch Trumpism fail. He's not going to get to suddenly have a gay friend or a black friend who expands his perception of this world. Charlie Kirk's never going to have a chance to be a better guy than the ones some people are rejoicing is gone right now and we've witnessed it. Jim, my book's all about how to use the Bible with a right wing Christian, with a nationalist, with a fundamentalist. Because hate doesn't work, violence doesn't work. What works, I find with Christian nationalists the only thing that works is knowing the Bible, non violence humor and showing up in much greater numbers when it's time for election day. That's how you beat them. And if anything, this proves that violence doesn't work, Mr. Acosta, because we know that Charlie Kirk's racism and his sins are going to be sanctified now. They're going to become marble statues now. It's going to become immortal and he'll be considered a hero to many and his hate and the, and I just hope that maybe some of our friends on the right will finally realize, oh, now that gun violence has happened to someone I love, maybe I should join the movement to try to reduce the shootings and stop the next mass shooting.

[A]

You know John, that is such a boy. If I could bottle what you just said there and sell it in a store, I would. I think that was terrific. Honestly John, what you just said there about, you know, Just nullifying the possibility that Charlie could have grown as a human being and understood maybe the errors of his ways. And now that could have been a teachable moment for not only himself, but for the movement that he's a part of and so on. I think that's, I think that is so smart. I think that makes so much sense. And we all have that kind of personal growth in all of our lives.

[C]

All of us, including those smug woke liberals who figured it all out. We also have. That's true. I mean, I wrote this book because we've all witnessed it ourselves. In the last 30 years, how many of us have talked to our parents and our grandparents out of so much homophobia that they thought was Christian? But it's actually. No, you don't. Charlie Kirk used to invoke Leviticus that defend killing gay men. Yeah, follow Leviticus, Christians follow Christ. And Jesus commands you to treat gay people the way you treat him, including those trans people who are this year's convenient scapegoat. I've seen so many hearts change. And I've seen, I mean, look, look at the amount of conservatives who are so right wing pre Trump and he crossed their decency line. And we've seen so many people expand their minds, expand their hearts. And so this tragedy above all proves that violence doesn't work and it's not going to achieve any goals.

[A]

Yeah. Boy, that is so wise. I appreciate you saying that. And let's talk about the book, because I think it's a perfect segue to the book in the way, and I was getting into this a little bit with Mary, Mary Trump, but you know, Trump 1.0. There were so many examples of just total hypocrisy on the part of the Christian right when it came to Donald Trump. And you would see those images of Christian conservatives in the white and the Oval Office laying hands on him. So to the point that now Gavin Newsom pokes fun at it with his own images of Hulk Hogan, laying hands on him with Tucker Carlson and so on Kid Rock and. But, but there's a real serious commentary here and that is he has been deified by Christian conservatives in the way that perhaps Charlie Kirk will now correct. And you've dedicated a book essentially to saying, you know folks, you need to wake up here, you know, there this sort of flies in the face of what's in the good book.

[C]

This book is the most mainstream thing I've ever done. This is book for believers of all faiths, for atheists, for agnostics, for sane conservatives. For anyone who's going to have to deal with one of these right wing fundamentalists who thinks violence is okay if our side does it, who believes that God likes me better, so I'm not going to negotiate with Satan. If you're against me, you're against God. This is the essence of fundamentalism and it's what's ruining Christianity and Islam and Judaism. Young people aren't leaving the church in droves because of the teachings of Jesus or because of God or Santa Claus or Noah's Ark or the Bible. They're leaving because they're turned off to the hostility, the cruelty, the prejudice and the hypocrisy of so many Christian leaders. If your church is not saying love your enemies, but it's saying who your enemies are, you're not really in a church. And I wrote this book because I wish someone had given it to me at age 17 when I was raised to believe Christianity was this movement of peace and love and empathy and lifting up the least of these. And I turn on the TV and see the Jerry Falwell's and the Pat Robertsons and all of these ex segregationists and blow dried televangelists preaching about welfare moms and AIDS patients and wondering how am I the same religion as these people? I think a lot of people in this country were raised religious and they now consider themselves spiritual because they're turned off to all this hypocrisy. And this is a book about what Christianity started out as, what it turned into, and why the teachings of Jesus are still worth fighting for and still very threatening to authoritarians in power.

[A]

Yeah, and I think about the immigration experience here in America and the way Trump is going after immigrants in a way that it's not just un American, it's, it's not Christian. It is just not, you know, mass ICE agents without uniforms that have insignias on them throwing people into vans taking off and we don't know, they might get deported off to a country they're not even from. In what world is that, Is that Christian?

[C]

Not in this world. Look, it's really simple and one of my goals with this was to when you're debating with your, your right wing loved one or co worker, don't debate them, make up, make them debate the Bible. Because the God of the Hebrew scriptures is unambiguous. He commands the Israelites to welcome the stranger, commands them to never take advantage of the alien and treat the alien as one of your own. Jesus goes one step further in Matthew 25, the judgment of nations where he says that individuals and nations will be judged, heaven or hell, based on how they welcome the stranger. And you'll never see the right fighting to put Jesus quotes like that on a courthouse wall or a classroom wall. But the reality is God commands us to welcome the stranger. Jesus says nations will be judged by how well they do it. So your question to your bigoted uncle should be, why should I listen to you and Donald Trump and not God and Jesus? Please tell me now. I'm not saying that we shouldn't have standards over who comes into the country, but it's the criminalization of migrants and asylum seekers. Calling them illegals. They're. They're Christian refugees. Call them that, it'll irritate the right people, and it's much more accurate. They're allowed to hate refugees. They're allowed to go ahead and persecute asylum seekers. They're not allowed to pretend they follow Jesus when they do it.

[A]

Yeah, no, you're so right. And I. I'm so glad. And there's a viewer there saying it's the most unchristian crap ever. I'm so glad that you have come to this. And it sort of reminds me a little bit of what we're seeing now from James 10 Calarico, who is a young kid. I shouldn't call him kid. He's younger than us running for the Senate in Texas. And he sort of comes at this from the same standpoint, which is, you know, I'm gonna win him. I'm gonna win him over, not just at the polls, but in the pulpit.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And there's, you know, Jimmy Carter taught Sunday school. It's okay for progressives to be, you know, kind of not wearing it on their sleeve. If you want to wear it on your sleeve, wear it on your sleeve. But, I mean, to talk about this stuff, why not talk about it?

[C]

But. And again, like, the right doesn't own religion, and religion doesn't own spirituality. Religion doesn't own God. Religion doesn't own Jesus or belief. But for far too long, we've seen our Democratic friends seed spirituality to the right, like they've ceded the flag. And yet there are so many committed Christians, or at least people who don't identify as Christian, but they. They like the teachings of Jesus. And this is a time when progressive Christians have to align with non Christians and with atheists, because the entire history of Christianity has been this struggle of authoritarian Christianity. And then the Christ followers who resist. I mean, you had the Crusades, and St. Francis said no and renounced all violence and protested it. You had doctrine of discovery, colonization. Columbus is slaughtering people in the shadow of the cross. And the Catholic priest on his ship, Bartolomeo de las Casas, the first white person to ever do an act of protest in this hemisphere, wrote to the Queen to protest how the indigenous people were being treated. Christianity propped up slavery, and Christ followers like Frederick Douglass and Harriet Tubman and the Quakers pushed back. Christianity propped up segregation. And a Baptist preacher from Atlanta used scripture to shame white America with their own holy book. There's a great history of Christian activism in this world, and Christian activism has always, always manifested itself in resistance to Christian authoritarianism.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I, I was kind of. I mean, I, I learned growing up that Jesus was kind of a radical himself. I mean, I, you know, I don't know if that's a, A radical notion, but that's, that's extremely. That's the one I learned about, you know, growing up.

[C]

He still is.

[A]

He still is.

[C]

He's. He still is. I mean, anti death, Anti death penalty. Forgive those who oppress you. Pay your damn taxes. He says we'll all be judged by how individuals and nations care for the poor, care for the sick, welcome the stranger and are kind to those in prison. I mean, you can see why this guy is threatening. And in his story, it was a few extreme conservative, authoritarian, religious combined with imperial power that killed Jesus. That's the same coalition we're battling now.

[A]

Wow. Well, John, the book is extraordinary. Let's show it one more time to the viewers. I can't wait to. I'm going to get a hold of this because I want to read this Separation.

[C]

I'm getting you a copy.

[A]

I'll take a free copy, but I will. Happy to buy one too.

[C]

Can I take a second? Can I take a second, Mr. Acosta, to thank you as a fan of actual journalism, in a world of prompter monkeys and a world of shills, to thank you for actually putting the bringing the truth to the American people above everything else. I host the primetime programming on Sirius XM Progress. And, and your work is an inspiration. Thank you for all you do.

[A]

Oh, I'm happy to come on anytime. And I'll. I'll do what I can without a prompter. I ditched the prompter to do this thing and I, I tell you, I don't miss it. I don't miss.

[C]

Nah, you don't need it, right? You forget. You forget right away.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

And it's more interesting in your words, too.

[A]

Yeah. And. And we're talking about religion. So I don't want to quote Bill O'Reilly, but he had a thing about saying effort and do it live.

[C]

But, you know, you're making it look easy.

[A]

Thanks, John. Great to see you.

[C]

Thank you, sir.

[A]

All right. Really appreciate it. John Fugal saying. And he has an exciting show on Sirius as well, in addition to this great book. All right, let's bring in Fanon. Fanon is here. I want to bring in Fanon because he's been waiting patiently. Mike, good to see you, man. It felt like we were in Sunday school there for a few minutes. I. I don't know if that's an unusual environment for you to be in, but good to see you.

[D]

That was an altar boy, man.

[A]

Is that right?

[D]

Yeah, I was boy at St. Mary's in Alexandria. I haven't been inside a church since. Since I got married, but, yeah, it's been a minute.

[A]

It's been a minute. It's been a minute for lots of things, man. I, you know, I, one of the things that I wanted to talk about, obviously, is Charlie Kirk, you and I jumped on the phone. Sometimes I feel like our phone call should be the show instead of what we do on the show. It's actually, I think it's better content, but I don't know. We can't record it, like, instantaneously or we haven't figured that out, but yeah.

[D]

Yeah, we'll get there.

[A]

Yeah. But your thoughts on all this? I mean, we still don't know what happened. I mean, you, you come from a law enforcement background. There's been a whole hell of a lot of speculation as to what took place. We still don't know. We know he was, he was shot. He's. He's. He was killed. It's a tragedy. But we don't know the who the suspect is, the motivation. We have a picture of a person of interest and not much else.

[D]

That's right. I mean, you know, this investigation, it appears, I mean, from, you know, from what law enforcement has shared with us, is still in its infant stages. You know, they haven't released any information about a suspect. Like you said, we. We have absolutely no information about motivation. But, you know, unfortunately, many in, you know, both politics and the media have taken this opportunity or this tragedy really to take the opportunity to point fingers and really continue to proliferate political violence and the threat of political violence in this country. You know, I was on yesterday and, you know, I did. I was doing Don Lemon show for the breaking news, and we were talking about how Or I talked about how no one has done more to foster political violence and the threat of political violence in this country than Donald Trump. And unfortunately, his statements yesterday did absolutely nothing to, you know, bring calm in this moment. He did the opposite. And, you know, you had people like Jesse Waters going on Fox News, which we all know has a tremendous amount of influence over the MAGA sphere and point the finger at the left and say that the left has declared war on MAGA again, before knowing anything about this shooter, before knowing anything about the motivation behind this, you know, tragic incident. And obviously you can imagine what the social, social media sphere looked like over the past 12 or 24 hours.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[D]

And yeah, it's, you know, as someone I know who, who occupies a similar space as I do, who, you know, has spoken out against this administration also calling for an end to political violence. It's, you know, it doesn't look like our leaders, at least within the Republican Party and within the right wing media sphere are interested in bringing calm to this moment.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, the conversation right after this occurred and into the evening last night was we need to tone down the political rhetoric, we need to turn down the temperature and so on. Jesse Waters didn't do that. Elon Musk immediately said that the left is the party of murder. And then Donald Trump, sort of following those same talking points, said what he said last night, which essentially that this is because of the radical left and so on. And the things that they say when we, first of all, when we don't know what took place. And then they tick off all of these examples where they say people on the right have been targeted and they conveniently ignore things that have happened to people on the left or the fact that Donald Trump incited an insurrection on January 6, and so on and so on and so on.

[D]

I mean, there's been countless examples of, of people utilizing this moment to stoke, you know, fear and, and, and violence amongst their supporters. I mean, I, I was just before I came on with you. Yeah, I was looking at a, you know, an interaction between Congressman Derek Van Warden, I don't know if you saw this on the steps of the Capitol in which he interjected himself into an interview that was taking place with another member and several reporters interrupted the interview and pointed at each one of the reporters and said, you are responsible for Charlie Kirk's death. Each and every one of you is responsible for Charlie Kirk's death. And you can imagine, I mean, one of those reporters sent me some of the posts and comments that they received after that, which were obviously incredibly threatening because now Derek Van Orden has placed the blame on journalists who are simply doing their job and creating this environment in which people feel justified to use violence. It's exactly the same environment that resulted in January 6, 2021. Exactly the same. You have, you know, people in positions of authority, members of Congress, elected officials, media personalities with tremendous influence spewing hateful, angry rhetoric, unjustified rhetoric, and directing it at their political opponents, the political opposition, and, and creating an, a justification in the minds of their supporters and their followers to commit acts of violence.

[A]

Yeah, and, and when you have Jesse Waters on Fox, you know, saying that they're going to avenge Charlie's death, they are at war with us, whether we want to accept it or not, everyone's accountable. We're watching what they're saying on television. And who's saying what? The politicians, the media, all these rats out there. This is what he said. This can never happen again. It ends now. I mean, that is some crazy over the top. And nothing happens to Jesse Waters. And Matthew Dowd says what he says on MSNBC gets, he gets immediately canned. And I'm not, you know, what Matthew said is what he said. But it is a far cry from what Jesse Waters said, for Christ's sake. I mean, I will just, I will say that Jesse Water is completely out of control in what he said and Fox will do nothing.

[D]

Yeah, I was listening when, when Dale made those comments. And I mean, it was a stupid thing to say. It was a stupid thing to say, but he certainly wasn't, he wasn't calling for people to commit acts of violence against fellow Americans.

[A]

Right.

[D]

Which is exactly what Jesse Watters was doing.

[A]

That's exactly what he did.

[D]

You don't have to read between the lines. He was telling, you know, his viewers that we are going to avenge. And obviously when he says we, he doesn't mean he, he means you go out there and avenge. Just like when Donald Trump said, I'm going to march with you to the Capitol, fight like hell if we don't have a country. It's the same insightful, hateful, hate filled, angry, violent rhetoric. And you know, I, I listen, I could be wrong, but I feel like I'm pretty tuned in at this moment. And I certainly didn't see anything other.

[C]

Than.

[D]

Condolences and balls for an end to this type of violence from politicians, leaders, you know, clergymen, people who, you know, are identified with left wing politics, left leftist, you know, that was it. That's all I, you Know, and it's just, wow.

[A]

I completely agree with you. I mean, you know, listen, I mean, there are folks on the left who, who made stupid comments after what happened to Charlie Kirk. There's no question about it. I'm not, I'm not going to ignore that. I'm not going to gloss over that. But Jesse Waters has a pretty prized perch over at Fox. He's the host of the Five, and he has the Jesse Waters prime time or whatever they call it. And he's saying things like, we're at war with our fellow Americans. It's absolutely. It's disgusting and, you know, but I hate to even devote any time to it. But again, this is another example of Fox just being absolute poison when it comes to the political discourse in this country. And, you know, it, It. How does this even honor Charlie Kirk to engage in that kind of rhetoric? Charlie Kirk, I mean, he said a lot of, you know, insanely hateful things from time to time, but he at least preached free speech and said, hey, come and come and disagree with me on a college campus and so on. I mean, I mean, listen, he wasn't. Go ahead.

[D]

Yeah, I'm not going to sugarcoat, you know, who Charlie Kirk was.

[A]

Yeah, no, me neither.

[D]

And I'm saying, you know, like, this is a person who espoused hateful, violent rhetoric. And to the extent that I would even, you know, classify him as a First Amendment advocate, I mean, I think he, he certainly advocated for his own First Amendment.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

And, and the First Amendment, you know, rights of those who, who are politically aligned with him.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

But, you know, when this happened, as a father, my first thoughts were, you know, of his, his children and his wife. And that's where my mind went.

[A]

And I'm.

[D]

Listen to, you know, I'm somebody who has, you know, almost lost their life to individuals in which, you know, Charlie Kirk has aligned himself with. I'm somebody who has, you know, and experienced vile threats almost on a daily basis for simply speaking out and talking the truth. And yet I still harbor no ill will, nor do I celebrate what happened to Charlie Kirk. And that's what leads me to believe that, you know, people like Jesse Waters, they don't give a. About Charlie Kirk. They don't give a. About what happened to Charlie Kirk. They certainly don't give a. About Charlie Kirk's family. They care about monopolizing this moment and using it to energize their base and their viewers. And, and, and they don't really care what, what harm they cause in doing so.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, there's, there's exploitation going on of, of his death. And it, it's happening on the right and it's, it's absolutely disgraceful and it, and it's sending us down a course where more people are, are probably going to get hurt. And I, I mean, that, to me is, that's where I kind of held my breath yesterday, is that I think we're now in a moment, and there's not a whole lot you and I can do about this. Mike, you and I can talk about this until we're blue in the face or red in the face or whatever. There's not a whole hell of a lot we can do to stop what is now, I think, happening, which is we're going to be in this eye for an eye moment. People on the far right are going to use this moment. You already have the State Department earlier today saying that quote, unquote, foreigners need to watch what they say. And Trump is talking about retribution. I mean, if you read between the lines of what he said last night, you know, screw just Jesse Waters and what he said. You read between the lines of what Trump said last night. He's talking about revenge and retribution.

[D]

Oh, no doubt. I mean, my, my concern when I watched his remarks was that, I mean, if you've noticed, he's said recently that it's the left's terminology, the use of words like fascist and authoritarian and into, in describing this administration, which I think are completely appropriate terms to describe Donald Trump and his administration. But how will they, how will they interpret that language? Will they start arresting people or, you know, coming after people that describe them as such because they feel as though that language is insightful and use this moment to legitimize, you know, their quashing or, you know, of the certain individuals. First Amendment rights.

[A]

Yeah, no, there's no question about it. And I mean, and again, it needs to be said. We don't know what happened. Yeah, we don't know exactly what happened. And I should know right now. And Mike, this is happening as you and I are speaking. And this is according to local news reports in Boston. There's been apparently a large police response after reports of shots fired at the University of Massachusetts in Boston. Don't know what has happened there yet. Apparently the shots were fired at 3:45pm this is according to WCVB in Boston, which is one of the affiliates there. One of the other affiliates w HDH is reporting something similar large police presence at UMass Boston. The other part of this, Mike, I mean, we Had a school shooting in Colorado yesterday. This, this Charlie Kirk killing was a school shooting. It happened at a university in, in Utah. I mean, the gun violence, the mass gun violence that's taking place in this country right now is totally out of control.

[D]

Absolutely. I mean, you know, and it's, I mean, there's so many components that go into, you know, what happened yesterday. But, you know, when, when you break it down, you know, to its most fundamental, it's, it's an example of the same gun violence that's been plaguing this country now for, for decades.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

And you know that it's just I calling for some type of action on, on behalf of Congress. I mean, it just, it's almost like, why waste your breath?

[A]

Yeah, no, it's pissing into the wind. Yeah.

[D]

And, and it's sad that, you know, even, even when someone like a Charlie Kirk, who is a prominent figure in right wing politics can't inspire other Republican politicians to at least open the conversation about, you know, common sense gun legislation. Common sense gun laws, no question.

[A]

No, it's not happening. Yeah, it's not going to happen. No. Yeah. Mike, good to see you, man. Really appreciate it.

[D]

Yeah, thanks for having me on, buddy.

[A]

All right, thanks. Talk to you soon. Yeah. And there's the, the picture right there. The FBI has a person of interest that they're looking at. This was released by the FBI Salt Lake City field office. They were supposed to have a news conference earlier in the afternoon that was apparently postponed. Waiting to see, you know, what the authorities have to say. They were looking at that video of what looked like this, the suspect in Charlie Kirk's murder running across a rooftop there at that university in Utah. And they don't. I mean, we'll see if they have somebody and, and, and if they can find somebody. You remember the healthcare CEO that was murdered that took a few days to unravel and, and for that suspect, Luigi Mangione, to get caught. But, and perhaps something will, like, will happen like that. In this case, we'll have to wait and see. But it bears repeating that we are in the midst of a gun violence crisis in this country. Just now, reports of shots fired at the University of Massachusetts in Boston. This is a UMass Boston tweet. Police incident in or near residence hall east building avoid area. More information to come. So don't want to extrapolate too much from that. Sometimes these things don't turn out to be what it looks like in the initial report. So we'll wait to see what happens. But the Other thing that we have to mention is Today is the 24th anniversary of 9 11. And I covered the aftermath of 911 as a very young reporter. I. That was one of my first assignments working for CBS News. I worked for their affiliate service. And one of the things that, one of the first things that they had me do was to go down to ground zero and report from ground zero. I've talked about this before, I'll talk about it again here. But I used to do, I was doing live shots at the time above the pile, about 30 floors up, I believe it was in the Woolworth Building, I believe is what it was called on Broadway, right there by Ground Zero. And they picked that building because it could look down into the pile. And I'll never forget, you know, doing those live shots and seeing the forklifts and the construction workers and the first responders on top of the pile. And the other thing I will never forget is when I was done on those days, I would go down to the ground and walk around and I would see the ATM machines that had the pictures of the victims. Initially there was, there was a time period where people just didn't know what happened to their family members and people just vanished. And they were taping pictures of victims onto ATM machines. I remember that. I remember seeing people, you know, people think we only saw a mask on, on folks faces during COVID I remember down in that area of lower Manhattan there were people wearing the hospital masks walking around. And I, I to this day cannot get out of my head those images. And you know, working in New York at that time and going past fire stations that would have tributes put up to the firefighters who lost their lives. And just walking up and down the street in New York, you'd go past a open air restaurant cafe and you would just catch little glimpses of conversations. You would, little snippets of conversations. People talking about 9 11. Oh yeah, I was there that day. I was. I had to walk 60 blocks to get home. You couldn't get a cab and I was covered. And so, I mean you would hear these conversations all the time. I'm relaying all of this because these thoughts always come back to me on 9 11. I always think about that day. And I, because of the personal connection and experience that I had then. But I also think about it because of the way this country came together. People might not like George W. Bush and so on, but when he was down on the pile down at ground Zero and he had that bullhorn, that bullhorn moment and he talked about going after the people who, who attacked America on that day. And there was a sense of unity. There were people, I remember the firefighters and the first responders who were coming from all across the country to volunteers who had no training, you know, staging and trying to help in the ways that they could, you know, rotating in with the first responders that had been decimated in New York to help dig whatever remains they could find in the pile and so on. And it was such a moment of national unity. And it's one that I remember. It's one that I remember. But it's one that people Charlie Kirk's age and younger have no recollection of that young. These young Gen Z ers and young millennials barely have any recollection of. And it's sad and it's tragic that there are so many young people in this country who don't recall a moment when there was national unity, when we had that brief shining moment of national unity in America when we all felt like Americans and we all felt like we were in it together. And yes, it was complicated. And yes, the Bush administration, yada, yada, yada, when it came to 911 in the aftermath, I. I get all of that. And people not wanting to give Bush any credit whatsoever for any of that. I'm not trying to go down that road. The road I'm trying to go down. And it sounds, and it sounds trite now, I suppose to some people, and it might sound quaint and Pollyannish, but there, there have been moments in our history where we have come together and we were not as bitterly divided as we are right now. Where you have people celebrating the death of Charlie Kirk or trying to explain it away or say that there's a reason why there's political. To hell with all of that. I say it's not right. And people on, and people on the far right trying to justify this and exploit it for political gain. It's just going to pull us even farther apart, folks. And I'm not both sizing this. I am not both sizing this. But we've got to figure out a way. We have. And I, I wrote about this in my book. We've got to figure out a way to have just a little more faith in one another. We've got to find a way, and I get it, that the guy in the White House right now doesn't want any of that. He's profited and he's rode a wave of this hate and anger and hostility into the White House. There's no way he's not riding to the rescue. He's not going to bring us together. I don't really foresee that ever happening. But it is on us to avoid what we are on right now in terms of the road that we're on right now. It is up to us to pull back from this notion that you can have reprisals going back and forth. That is the future that I worry about. That we're on the precipice of that we're on the edge of. We're on the edge of a cliff right now, folks. We're on the edge of a cliff. There is no place for political violence in this country. That thing that is true, that should be true. But right now there is apparently a place for political violence in this country. And we need to confront that truth and we need to reject it at all costs. We need to reject that notion at all costs that there's a place for it. And we need to figure out if there's a way on this 24th anniversary of 9 11, next year will be the 25th on the 250th anniversary of our country. If there's a way, even without the guy in the White House, for us to be a little bit more of one people, one country. I know that sounds pie in the sky, but it's something I'm thinking about on this 9 11. I hope you do, too. My thanks to Mary Trump, my thanks to John Fugelsang, who's got a great new book out and always my buddy Mike Fanone. Well, I had to get on the show, as always. Enjoy talking to him. Thanks everybody for watching. Please take some time to do some deep reflection. Think about how we can get back to that place, being together as one nation. Good night.