A (2:21)

Yeah. I mean, you know, there's obviously the January 6th hypocrisy in all of this, which I mean is just out of control. I mean, there were MAGA mob people up on the Capitol that day assaulting cops. And he pardoned them. I mean, he commuted their sentences and pardoned them. And some of the worst of them all were pardoned.

B (2:41)

Yeah. And let me give you another January 6th tie in example here, which is one of the biggest things we had to fight against on the committee is this narrative, this talking point that Nancy Pelosi and The mayor of D.C. did not call in the National Guard.

A (2:56)

Yes.

B (2:56)

Now, I'm a Guardsman and I'm sitting here saying, look, first off, the speaker and the Mayor have no control over the DC Guard. And the problem is when you say they didn't call in the Guard, you're taking advantage of people's ignorance of how the guard works in D.C. which is very uniquely different than every other National Guard.

A (3:16)

Right.

B (3:16)

Which is the DC Guard is actually under the purview of the President. The President has shown just right now that in fact he could have, and he alone could have deployed the National Guard on January 6th. Now you could say that to somebody and they're going to be like, oh well, I, whatever. But that's the reality. And so that's, you know, the second part of the January 6th story that's effective here.

A (3:39)

No, it's true. I mean, they finally called out. The guard was at five or six o'clock in the evening. By then it was basically over, it was ending. And you know, here's the thing, and you and I were starting to talk about this before we got going here is it's exhausting to point this shit out.

B (3:54)

Yeah.

A (3:55)

And he said he lies over and over again. I mean he was talking today. It's just complete nonsense and bullshit, just nonstop and it's exhausting to point it out, but you have to point it out and you have to hope that at some point maybe it gets through to somebody. But I mean your, I mean you have a military background, your sense of just deploying the National Guard for basically a non emergency, somebody with doge gets assaulted. I mean there's crime all the time in dc. I'm not saying it's perfect here. The crime statistics show it was going down. But I mean just your thoughts on deploying the Guard, it just for law enforcement issue makes no sense.

B (4:32)

It doesn't. Well, first off, just real quick, there's something called an OODA loop and a few nerds on Here will know what that is. It's a military term and it stands for like observe. There's the other O decide and act. And that's how you come to a decision in a war. Right. And so as the, as America, we try to do what we call get inside our opponent's OODA loop. So we try to like keep them from completing that and they have to change. That's what you see with Donald Trump. There's so much stuff being thrown out there that by the time, you know, we come around with a coherent argument against it, we're on to the next one. And he's constantly shortchanging the ability to really make a case on each of these. So on the military itself, look, there's a couple points here.

A (5:12)

Yeah.

B (5:13)

First off, crime exists. Like it sucks, it exists. But. And you could, you know what? The United States could have, could get rid of every single bit of crime. Every bit of crime. I read the book 1984. There was no crime in 1984. Even thought crime was illegal because there was a guy sitting there looking through a two way TV at you the whole time. There were troops everywhere. We could have zero crime in this country tomorrow because you put you station one troop for every square mile. You could do that. But we have decided as a free nation that we don't want to live like that. You look at every time a dictator or an authoritarian comes to power, they come to power on the back of safety and security. Because on Maslow's hierarchy of need, that's the very bottom. That's like the base instinct. More than I want democracy, and I'm speaking as myself, more than I want democracy, I want my family to be safe. Right. And so they come in and they play to that. So the problem is you can, you can say the military needs to take care of DC and play with people. Yeah, we hate crime. But we are setting the precedent. D.C. is a specific, kind of unique case. We're setting the precedent in numbing people to American troops on American streets. A National Guardsman joins the National Guard to help his or her community. You know, they understand they may have to fill sandbags, they may have to help with floods. They might actually have to face down against the American people. But that's only in the case when there's basically insurrection or intense riots that can't be controlled by law enforcement. And they may have to face down the enemy. What they were not built for was to come in and be police officers on a whim. And so it's doing two things you're overtaxing the National Guard. You're turning the Guard against the community. And every member of the National Guard, you know, look, when I wore a National Guard uniform, everybody told me, thanks. I fear that's not going to be the case anymore. The other thing is each one of these National Guard members have a civilian job they're now being taken away from. Many of them are single parents, many of them have kids. And even if it's a two parent home now, you're stressing the other parent. And in a lot of cases, when they're activated, they take a massive pay cut from their other job. By the way, probably a fifth of the National Guard that's being deployed are police officers on the outside. So you're actually robbing from Peter to pay fault.

A (7:36)

That's a good point.

B (7:38)

Yeah. And so what you're creating here, you're numbing the American people to troops on the street. You're taxing the National Guard. And what you saw in LA was a whole separate case because the Guard was not put under title 32. I won't get too nerdy, but that's when the governor consents and they can do domestic law enforcement. The President activated them alone, which means they were no different than the 82nd Airborne on the streets of LA. And he sent the US Marine Corps only to intimidate. This is a chilling thing and the American people need to understand. And if you're a Republican, I would put yourself, imagine if Barack Obama's doing this, right, Or President Trump is doing this, you would be on the streets with your guns. And all we're asking is to say think about this. And that's where we're at.

A (8:28)

Yeah. And you and I have been around long enough to remember they used to have these conspiracy theories on the far right about the FEMA camps and everything. Obama's gonna put people in FEMA camps and so on. And you know, Trump is out there, you know, rattling people's cages in D.C. but he's not sending the National Guard to St. Louis or Memphis or, or cities in red states that actually have worse crime in Washington. I mean, so it's, it's absolutely ridiculous. And I mean, I think you're absolutely right. I, I have covered a lot of military issues over the year. I've been around a lot of soldiers and folks in the National Guard and they're great people. They, and they're put in such a terrible bind when they get deployed because they are putting their, their families in j. Some cases they're Putting their lives on the line to serve their country. And they deserve our thanks. And I hate that they've been placed in. I drove past some of them the other day down on the National Mall, and this is just ridiculous. There's nothing happening on the National Mall, you know. Right. It's a waste of resources. It's a waste of their time. And I have to think they're thinking.

B (9:30)

That they hate it, too. I mean, we. Look, one of the things Hegseth talked about is, you know, oh, we have a recruiting crisis. And we do, actually. And that's factual. This is not going to help the recruiting crisis on the National Guard side. I mean, look, yeah, join the Guard. You may have to do sandbags. You're going to be trained as a U.S. army, as a U.S. army soldier. And you actually can take that skill and face down Americans. Because Donald Trump wants to, you know, intimidate. I mean, it's frightening, and it's not going to be. I mean, you have to think back to the Kent State, state massacre to understand that it's not completely unthinkable. That, again, human emotions. Donald Trump said, you spit, we hit. This could create a toxic stew where you could see the National Guard unfortunately, open fire.

A (10:14)

And, you know, and listen, I was joking around about the guy throwing the sandwich and earlier, and people are having fun with that. Don't bread on me. And I've seen some of the memes floating around out there, but this is what Trump wants, not a sandwich. He wants a spark.

B (10:29)

Yeah.

A (10:29)

He wants this thing to blow up into a larger issue so he can go in there and crack some skulls. And it's to. It's to cover up this Epstein stuff.

B (10:37)

It is.

A (10:39)

Go ahead.

B (10:39)

100%. Look, this is. So. I think this would have happened anyway in D.C. the question is, why is it happening right now? Is it because a DOE staffer named Big Balls, by the way, got beat up? No. Right. That was the impetus. It's because we're not talking about Epstein right now. Now, the good news is I think Epstein gets kicked off again when Congress goes back into session. But that's what this is. This guy is so desperate to change the subject that he made the timing right here. And. And that's intense. By the way, five minutes ago, the Republican Party believed in local governance, right?

A (11:16)

Yes.

B (11:17)

So if a big city has a crime problem, well, by the way, you should probably kick out the mayor. You should probably hire more cops. If a city wants National Guard help, they have every right to go to the governor and request It. We never believed in big federal government moving into small cities, but now, evidently, that's the new thing.

A (11:37)

Yeah. And D.C. i mean, they have taxation without representation, and I pointed this out on this show. They deserve statehood of some way, shape or form. I mean, this can't go on like this, where the people of Washington, 700,000 people more than Wyoming or Vermont, and they don't have real representative government. It's total bullshit. And it has to change. And, you know, forgive me if I sound like Mr. D.C. statehood Guy, but it's nuts. The other thing I have to ask you about, Adam, before I want to talk about Putin and Alaska, everything. Since we mentioned Epstein, is it your sense that the Republicans are going to give Trump a pass on and Ghislaine Maxwell? He moves Ghislaine Maxwell, who was a pedophile and a child rapist and a sex trafficker to a minimum security prisoner.

B (12:20)

Yeah.

A (12:21)

You're talking about pitchforks and torches. How does he get away with this shit with the Republican Party, it's like.

B (12:27)

I mean, listen, Jim, the thing you have to think about is over 10 years. So Trump's been in our life for 10 years in a political fashion, right?

A (12:35)

Yeah, don't I know it.

B (12:36)

Over that 10 years, I mean, if you think back to his first administration, there was still resistance, right? There was some normalcy around him. But, you know, you make Liz Cheney and I an example. You have all these members of Congress that don't run again that are replaced by sycophants. Eventually you create your own cult, and the cult leader can literally do no wrong. Here's the interesting thing. This, this supposed movement of alpha males, right these in. And by the way, they certainly don't know the definition of alpha males because they all have the same freaking picture on X with the fight, fight, fight thing on top. They're all each other, right? The, the sunglasses, selfie, flat build cap in the car, picture and self. But real alpha males would actually turn that energy to protecting the vulnerable. Instead, these beta fish have turned their energy to protecting the lead fish, Donald Trump. And Dwayne Maxwell is a rapist. She didn't just set up Rendezvous, which is bad enough, she participated. And yeah, they're gonna give him a pass. They are.

A (13:42)

God, man, that is depressing to think about. And I do like your take on. I mean, these are the heroes of the manosphere. Donald Trump, who is, I mean, an absurd amount of orange makeup on his face now. And he. And when he talks, he. He was speaking incoherently yesterday about Grasses and how he wants to fix the grasses of D.C. and I'm thinking to myself, how is this the hero of the manosphere? And then Don Jr. I mean, I shouldn't talk about his cup size, but I mean, you know, there was that the other day, that whole thing the other day. Anyway, look, we shouldn't go on and on like that, but. And Charlie Kirk, that's a whole other issue. But let's talk about Putin and Russia, because I don't want to squander our time with more dad jokes. But, I mean, this is a joke. That Trump is going to bring a war criminal to Alaska and again, getting a pass. I mean, Lisa Murkowski, where are you? I mean, shouldn't you just, you know, maybe I asked too much or Senator Sullivan or, or any of these others, but, I mean, this is. It sounds as though he may make some major concessions. I saw your. Your note on Substack this morning that Trump may open up fucking Alaska to the Russians. There's an article in the London Telegraph that Trump may offer Putin access to rare earth minerals in Alaska to end the war. Or in Ukrainian minerals. What the hell's going on?

B (15:00)

Yeah, I mean, look, and speaking of Lisa Murkowski, she actually did put out a statement, and the statement was basically, welcome to Alaska. I'm happy to share the bounty of Alaska with Vladimir Putin, an unworn criminal who murders Ukrainians every day. So this is. Let's say nothing happens tomorrow, best case scenario, I think let's say nothing happens tomorrow. Putin goes back to his people. It's a morale boost to a country that loses a thousand men a day, by the way, in this war, and it buys another few months because he's able to tell his people, look, the United States is on our side. We're working on this reconciling. And so you buy more morale. That's the best case scenario. We all know the worst case scenario because we Remember Helsinki in 2018, where Donald Trump sits with Vladimir Putin. And I've met. You've met Donald Trump a number of times. I've sat in the Oval Office a number of times. It's a guy that truly believes he's so narcissistic. He believes his force of personality always wins. He doesn't need to know anything. His force of personality. So in his zeal to make Vladimir Putin happy with him, he may give away the farm. Including the discussion is these minerals in Alaska, and that's actually the Bering Sea, which has about 15% of the world's oil Reserve that's untapped right now. Now, because I think, I think there's an agreement between the US And Russia that, look, we don't need to compete over this. Right. Because that could get dangerous. And basically, I think the offer is going to be Russia is welcome to drill in the Bering Sea and we won't challenge it, which underneath Alaska then steals our resources because, you know, oil is liquid. So best case scenario, we come out of this as an embarrassed country tomorrow. Worst case scenario, he gives away the farm. And Ukraine will be forced under a bad scenario to say, no, I think Europe will back Ukraine. But the danger here is that gives Donald Trump his impetus to say, okay, fine, Ukraine's not willing to come to the table. I'm lifting the sanctions on Russia. We're done helping Ukraine. And even more important than the weapons, the intel sharing we do with Ukraine could be shut off. And that's devastating.

A (17:08)

Well, and then there's the prospect when Trump's talking about bringing Zelensky in for, for some of these meetings. Are you telling me that Zelenskyy is going to want to be in the same room with Vladimir Putin without choking the shit out of him? I mean, I, this is a mess. This whole thing is a mess.

B (17:24)

And the, and the, what is the real kind of undertone message here, which is we're returning to a world of empires.

A (17:31)

Yeah.

B (17:32)

We are going to the United States of America. Okay. I mean, outside of the fact that we've kind of helped Ukraine a little bit, we have no, like, ownership of Ukraine.

A (17:43)

Right.

B (17:44)

Russia, who has no ownership of Ukraine, but is trying to take it by force. So Russia and the United States sit down and determine the future of Ukraine on Ukraine's behalf. This hearkens back to a Pre World War II and even just post World War II, when the Allies carved up Europe and, you know, the Middle East. Right. This leads to more and more war. And I don't think there's frankly anybody out there besides the craziest people that want to return to a world of empires. Donald Trump seemingly does because he can now influence our own hemisphere. Give Russia Europe, give China Asia.

A (18:18)

And, you know, it's what led to the, it was what led to World War I and World War II. I mean, and, you know, my thinking on all of this is, is that he's just dead wrong. And the, the way they try to dress up his foreign policy maneuvers is that there's some high minded, you know, ideological or statecraft, you know, work going on here. It's all bullshit. He doesn't. He's improvising, he's ad libbing. It's all fly by the seat of your pants. Well, remember, or your Depends or whatever.

B (18:49)

Yeah, they were changing his intel briefs. Look, if I was president, the thing that I would guarantee I would read every day is the intel brief. They were having to change his intel brief right into a Fox News show. Yes, they were producing a Fox News show for his intel brief because they.

A (19:06)

Had to dumb it down.

B (19:07)

Stupid.

A (19:08)

But here my question is, doesn't it make more sense to let the Russians just twist in the wind, Just why are you even bringing them to the table? Are they making that many gains where it's like, oh, well, we better get to the bargaining table with them. If anything, let them just, you know, linger for 10 years. 5. 10 years with just being this. With this. Being this monkey on their back. Like Afghanistan 2.0.

B (19:34)

Completely. Completely. So think about this. Russia has lost a thousand men a day. We lost, you know, 4,000, whatever it was in Afghanistan. So in four days, they're, you know, doing what we did in Afghanistan. When Russia invaded Ukraine, initially, they occupied 33 to 35% of Ukrainian territory. Today, that is 20, because the counteroffensive pushed them out. And now they're very slowly gaining back territory. But it's so slow that if Russia was to stay at this pace and actually take over all of Ukraine, it would take 150 years and close to 50 million lives, or 150 million, whatever.

A (20:15)

It is a meat grinder.

B (20:16)

Yeah. And. And their economy is a war economy. Now, that's teetering. I think in six months, if the United States actually doubled down on sanctions, continued to support Ukraine, you would see 1991 Russia all over again. If we stuck to it, because they're on the. They're teetering on that. But you know what? America, as we do so often and particularly under Trump, we have our boot on their neck, and right before they take their last breath, we bring in the ambulance and resuscitate them.

A (20:45)

Yeah, yeah. Victory from the jaws of defeat. And, I mean, the other issue here is that Trump, you know, claims that he wants the Nobel Peace Prize, which. I laugh at that headline every time it's out there. The White House talks about it or his allies talk about it. He wants to pressure the Norwegians into giving him a peace prize. That's all he cares about here. He just likes that he has them over a barrel and he can do this to him. I do want to ask you your thoughts on what's happening in Texas and the, you know, this midterm redistricting, I guess Gavin Newsom announced just a short time ago he's going to do it in California. He's going to seek basically a, a measure that will be put before the voters of California to allow them to essentially, you know, respond in kind to what they're doing in Texas. I mean, it sounds like Trump may get away with getting these five congressional seats in the long run. I don't know, it may go to court, who know. But your thoughts on all of that? It could make the difference. They could hang on to power, the Republicans in the House.

B (21:51)

Well, I think it's going to happen. It's going to be successful. The U.S. supreme Court made it pretty clear a few years ago in a decision that states can do what they want, and that includes mid cycle redistricting. I live in Texas now. It's crazy. I'll tell you what I usually hate. I'm not one that usually says we need to match bad things with bad things because I think then democracy falls apart. But this is an exception. I mean, you cannot allow them to do this without firing back, particularly when they're trying to steal a majority. And so I think Gavin Newsom's doing the right thing. I got redistricted out of a district twice, by the way, in Illinois, and that was Democrats coming after me. And there's, so there's, honestly, there's no juice left to squeeze in Illinois. I think it's down to three Republican districts out of like 18.

A (22:40)

But, you know, is there a part of you that says, hey, you know, look, if you play this game, it can end badly in ways that you can't really?

B (22:48)

Yeah, totally. And their numbers in Texas are based on Hispanics voting at the same rate that they voted for the presidential election, which may not be the case right now. There's a little bit of a turning on this. So look, I think California has to do what it's doing there, but I think it's disgusting. And let me say the last thing what the Republicans are doing is making it very clear they will not and cannot compete on the field of ideas. Right?

C (23:15)

Yes.

B (23:15)

They cannot convince the American people. Now, to my Democratic friends, particularly those in a, in a position of messaging, what the hell is your message? I'm sorry, Jim, I haven't heard it. I feel like the Democrats are way out of their league. We basically built the Tea Party on the Democrats passing a stimulus and a health care bill. This big, beautiful piece of shit bill was way worse than all of that. And I didn't see the Democrats hammering on that. I hope that changes, but I think it's important to call that out.

A (23:49)

And I will tell you, there's a new poll out today, Pew Research Center. I mean, you know, all these polls are flying at us fast and furious, but Trump is down to 38% approval in that poll. 61% of Americans disapprove of the tariffs, 46% disapprove of the tax and spending laws, as it's called by the AP that wrote this, the big beautiful bullshit bill. And it says 32% approved, 23% say they are unsure. So I'm not, not too surprised that those numbers are where they are. But it's very unpopular. His agenda is extremely unpopular. And so you're right, the Democrats should be able to capitalize this. But there have been some recent polls that show that the Democratic approval numbers are also in the shitter. So that tells you right now they got to amp it up and, I don't know, maybe go dump some fucking tea in the Potomac river or something and have your own goddamn Tea Party. Because to me, what they're doing right now, it just isn't cutting it. And people were pointing out, you know, like Eleanor Holmes Norton, bless her heart, she's 88 years old, and she hasn't really been out there in front of the cameras during this whole invasion thing. Like, the Democratic Party just needs a little bit of turnover here and some fresh blood and fresh legs.

B (24:59)

It seems to me it's what the Republicans did way better than the Democrats, which is we elected our people into various leadership positions, whether it was chair of a committee. And we usually elected based on who raised the most money and who was the most effective at communications. The Democrats tend to revert to seniority, and that's led to much older leaders and frankly, keeping people in office for 30 or 40 years. And there's nothing wrong with somebody being in office that long. But I think at a point, at a moment like this, when you need effective communicators, it's something to think through.

A (25:35)

Yeah. And am I allowed to put you on the spot and ask whether you, you haven't become a Democrat or have you thought about leaving the Republican Party? Where are you right now? What are your thoughts on this? It's almost better maybe to be a free agent.

B (25:46)

I don't know at this point.

A (25:48)

Your thoughts?

B (25:49)

Yeah, I consider myself, like, look, honestly, the last two election cycles, I voted straight Democratic. So if you go by that definition, that's what I Am. But I also recognize that I'm way more effective going after Maga as a Republican. I serve 12 years as a Republican member of Congress. So while that affiliation may change down the road, as of now, I still maintain it. But I haven't voted for a Republican in four years, so that's tough.

A (26:16)

It's tough. Well. And have you thought at all about what you might be doing moving forward? I mean, we're having fun on Substack. I mean, we are. As you and I have conversed, this is a lot of fun to just. I mean, I don't know, people might say, well, Jim, you're very opinionated now, but I. I don't give a shit. Like, I mean, it's. It's bad right now, so I guess, you know, all bets are off.

B (26:35)

That's right. It gives you a chance to do that. Look, I mean, I've made the decision that I will stay engaged in the political function, I guess, at least until 2028. Right. It's just. There's too much at stake, and I'll be 50 in 2028. So it's kind of a good time when you decide, you know, I know it's going to be.

A (26:54)

I'm a little bit more than that, by the way. So anyway.

B (26:57)

But that'll be the moment where it's like, you know, do I run for office again? That question, you know, do I fit somewhere to even do that, or do I move on? But I will stay engaged in the political sphere, at least for the next number of years, because the fight's too important.

A (27:11)

I mean, we could mount a run for mayor of D.C. and really give Trump a heart attack. I mean, I know I'm just. It's just a free idea. I throw it out there.

B (27:19)

I know. I love it. I love it.

A (27:21)

Well, Adam, a lot of admiration for you and everything, all the stuff you've had to put up with, and you're still out there fighting the good fight and doing events and talking to people. So good for you and glad everything's going well with you and your family and everything else, but thank you for doing this. Appreciate it.

B (27:34)

Of course. Back at you. I appreciate it. Thank you.

A (27:37)

All right. Good to see you, Adam. All right, take care. All right. I promise I wouldn't hold him up too long, and I try to keep my promises. He. I, you know, Adam is, you know, I should say Congressman Kinzinger. He's told me to call him Adam, but he is, I think, to me, the prototype for what we need going forward. 50 is not that old. I will tell you, you young whippersnappers out there, and I just, you know, I just would love to see some fresh faces and some fresh thinking on the national level. I know people say, oh, you can't win as an independent candidate. None of those things can happen, and so on. I don't know. I think, you know, could Adam Kinzinger run as an independent for president? I mean, I think maybe he could. I, I don't know. Why do we have rules anymore that say you can't do this and you can't do that? Donald Trump is a felon and he's president. So, I mean, I think all bets are off and all these preconceived notions are out the window. I'm going to try to bring in my buddy Miles Taylor here because Miles pinged me today with an exceptional column that he's written for Substack about Alligator Alcatraz and the connections between Alligator Alcatraz and the first term Trump administration immigration policies and some of the cockamamie ideas that Trump expressed at the time. And, and, you know, my sense of it is, is that, you know, we're going to see, you know, there's a lot, it's a busted fire hose of just craziness that that's happening right now. And it's hard to keep track when Donald Trump is invading D.C. with the National Guard and federal agents and so on. It's, it's hard to keep track of, you know, where everything is. And Miles is pinging me and saying, you'll be with us shortly. But one of the issues that we can't lose sight of is the immigration issue. I mean, it is, I think it goes to the very heart and soul of this country how we treat newcomers who come into the country. And I'm just going to read a little bit from Miles's piece as he just messaged me and said he's getting ready to get going here, which is terrific. But Miles, of course, writes for Substack with his substack called treason, aptly named because he's Trump went after him, accusing him of treason. But he writes this. New court filings allege that detainees at Florida's controversial Alligator Alcatraz immigration facility are enduring squalid conditions, including disease, flooding, lack of basic hygiene and food, and coercion from staff. The reports revive memories of Trump's bizarre fixation, one that he says he witnessed firsthand on using alligators as part of US Border security policy. So we're going to talk about that with Miles when he jumps here in a few moments. But we should note it was reported earlier today that Florida Governor Ron DeSantis is now working on building and establishing another. Exactly. Somebody has chimed in, a deportation depot. That's the new site that's being proposed in, I believe in North Florida, northern Florida. And it's basically going to be another one of these sort of domestic migrant gulags. And, you know, for people who say, oh, the El Salvador seacot prison was a gulag, it is a gulag, no question about it. But if we're building detention facilities in the United States, establishing detention facilities in the United States where people are enduring squalid conditions, where they're dealing with disease, flooding, lack of basic hygiene, food, I mean, there have been reports that, about detainees, migrant detainees only being fed twice a day, some of the conditions involved. If you're making a stink about your immigration case, you might be treated in a negative fashion inside your facility and so on. And it was just reported today, staying on the immigration front and talking about D.C. this is in the Washington Post. D.C. police officers may now assist federal immigration enforcement by sharing information about people not in custody and by transporting Federal Immigration Agency employees and their detained suspects. So now that Donald Trump has D.C. over a barrel with his invasion of Washington, D.C. he has coerced the Metropolitan Police Department, the Washington D.C. police Department, into cooperating with their immigration enforcement efforts. And there's Miles right there. Miles, great to see you. I'm so. Hey, exactly right back at you. You're not going to throw a sandwich at me, are you? I just want to make sure before we get going.

C (32:08)

Oh, Jim, if we were there, if I was there with you in person, of course I would throw a sandwich at you. But just to give you a bite to eat, man, I think you're looking too skinny.

A (32:16)

I need, I need to put on some. I did have a Shake Shack today. I was with my dad, took him to the doctor and we dined on some Shake Shack afterwards. So. And that's not an advertisement. I don't do advertising here. But yeah, there was this guy last night who threw a sandwich at a federal officer. And it. Adam Kinzinger, who was just on said don't throw a sandwich at the federal officer. I agree with that. But he has become some somewhat of a hero, pun intended, here in Washington, D.C. you know.

C (32:44)

Well, you know, I was just on with our friend Reed Galen, who was one of the co founders over at Lincoln Project. And, you know, we were talking a little bit about this, you know, we didn't talk about the sandwich thrower. And. And for, you know, listeners who are just joining us, of course, you know, this was the guy who. Maybe he'd had a couple drinks. I don't know. I just kind of looked that way from the video. But, you know, he threw a sandwich at. At. At one of the police checkpoints, at. At one of the officers, and he's now being charged with a felony.

A (33:11)

If you're eating Subway at that time of night, you probably have had a couple of cold ones, I'm just gonna.

C (33:16)

Say, you know, for sure.

B (33:18)

But.

C (33:19)

But, you know, what was really jarring about the whole thing and I was talking to Reid about this is the places they've set up these military and police checkpoints in Washington. I mean, these are. These are areas where Washingtonians go socialize. I mean, people who come to Washington to serve, whether it's in a Barack Obama administration or Donald Trump administration, this is where the young people go out. This is where they socialize. And it's evident to me that they're picking these places to create checkpoints to send a message. I mean, you know, it doesn't seem like they're going into the most dangerous neighborhoods of Washington, D.C. they're going to the places where reporters. They're going to the places where, you know, government civil servants go out and socialize to project a message of power. And it's very unusual to say this about the streets of the United states and Washington, D.C. and the last time I felt like the streets of D.C. were this eerie was the night of January 6th, after the insurrection. If anyone was in Washington or you watched news coverage of it, it was the strangest night on the streets of our town because there was a curfew and there was just a cold wind blowing. I mean, it was cinematic, but in the worst way. It felt like an East European capital during the Cold War. And I think that installing National Guard troops in Washington creates that feeling again. But unlike the night of January 6th, the very brief, you know, time where they put those curfew restrictions in place, this seems, Jim, to be something that is going to be quasi permanent.

A (35:06)

Yeah. And I remember, you know, the next day I was there, out on the streets that night. I was at the White House that day. And I remember how they all scattered like cockroaches in the West Wing. You couldn't find anybody to talk to. But, you know, that night, it was extremely eerie. Right. And then the next day. I will never forget this. Not to go off on a tangent, but I Remember seeing all of these people in MAGA hats outside of their hotels, smoking cigarettes, cooling their heels, waiting for their ride out of town and that sort of thing. And it struck me as just absolutely insane that there were. These are probably people who were at the insurrection and weren't arrested. Remember, a lot of them were not. Many of them were not arrested that day. They had to go and find them after what they did. And for Pam Bondi today, going back to the sandwich guy saying, if you touch any law enforcement officer, we will come after you. They beat the shit out of police officers on January 6 and her boss pardoned them. And I know we get exhausted pointing out these hypocrisies, but it drives me bananas.

C (36:05)

Yeah. And I don't think that we can point that out enough. And you get this question all the time, Jim, when you're just engaging with folks when you're out and about in the country and they say, how do I communicate this, you know, to my friends and family? How do I break through? And it's examples like that that are really important to give to them. I get that there's a tendency to want to sit down over a hamburger and say, don't you see he's doing things a dictator does? I get that. But that's not likely to break through to someone who's skeptical of these claims of autocracy. The things that do break through are when you present them with these conundrums, when you present them with hypocrisy, and especially if you present them with questions. Just like, just like that example, Jim, is when you're sitting down with those folks and say, you know, instead of saying, he's being a dictator, look at them and saying, you know, I'm really frustrated. Why would Donald Trump pardon these people who abused cops? But then at the same time, when it benefits him, say that they're gonna prosecute people who attack cops. Why would they do that? You gotta give them those elements of hypocrisy. So they themselves run the math and say, yeah, that doesn't add up, that's not right. And there's a whole hell of a lot of those so far in this second Trump administration.

A (37:25)

Yeah. And then the issue, and I was just talking about this with Adam, the issue of calling in the National Guard willy nilly because, you know, big balls got assaulted late on a Saturday night or whatever it was, and he, he couldn't get, he failed to get the National Guard. He didn't want to get the National Guard there on time in a timely fashion on January 6th. He got there until five or six o' clock in the evening, after it was basically over. I mean, again, another. And I think you're absolutely right, presenting that kind of information in that fashion. I think. I think you're right. I think that's a very good point to make, Miles. And it frustrates me that people will just, you know, they could just sort of look at what's happening in D.C. right now and say, oh, you know, that's D.C. sorry.

C (38:09)

Yeah, you're absolutely right. And, you know, I've got to say, in the immediate wake of January 6th, I was saying to a lot of folks that it was so evident to me that the President wanted the insurrection to happen and he wanted it to succeed. And it's tough to transport yourself back in time, but that's not actually what the popular conversation was like. I mean, we hadn't shifted to the conversation of Trump's complicity yet. Everyone was just in shock that this had happened. But it was so evident to me because I've been in these moments with the president where there's a national emergency and you can go deploy US Forces. It doesn't take hours. It doesn't take hours. You can get this president very, very quickly and say, Mr. President, here's all the different tools at your disposal to make this happen. And in fact, what was shocking to me is it takes a lot of effort if you are the president.

A (39:03)

Yeah.

C (39:04)

To avoid all of your lieutenants who want you to go do the right thing. And that's apparently what Donald Trump did on that day, is he sat in the dining room adjacent to the Oval Office and basically locked the door and drank Diet Cokes and sat on his hands and refused to make those phone calls. And friends of mine who were in the White House who were trying to get to the president to say, we've got to do something. People like Matt Cottinger, who was the deputy National Security Advisor, were denied access to the president to make these things happen. People couldn't get a hold of him. He wanted this to happen. And then, like you just said, the moment that one of his DOGE employees, you know, gets punched in the face, boom. The next day, two days later, we've got military checkpoints all across Washington, D.C. that is hypocrisy at a national scale.

A (39:58)

No question about it. And speaking of times when you've been behind the scenes of witnessing up close and personal, some of the lunacy that can go on inside his administration, you were writing about this, and I Read this to folks earlier from your substack. Earlier today, looking at the conditions at Alligator Alcatraz, what the detainees there are going through. And it reminds you a lot of what you saw personally up close and personal with Donald Trump as he was throwing out one of these crazy, cockamamie ideas as to how to treat migrants in this country.

C (40:35)

Jim, I hate to say it, you and everyone who's an American listening to this need to realize you have a president that has a reptile fetish. And that sounds real weird. Maybe it sounds a little funny. And I mean every word of it. You have a president that have a reptile fetish. What do I mean by that? I found this out in the most bizarre way possible. And if you want to read the whole story, it's over on the treason substack. But, you know, the long and short of it is one day I was briefing the Secretary of Homeland Security on a pretty serious threat stream that we were dealing with. We had just finished the Secretary's daily intelligence brief, and we were going through some pretty alarming things. And the president called in to the secretary and from the White House, and he basically had a request. He was really frustrated by the images he was seeing on Fox News of migrants crossing the border. And Fox really, obnoxiously was always running this B roll all the time, you know, of migrants crossing the border. And they knew it just shot his blood pressure through the roof. And he said to the Secretary of Homeland Security at the time, you know, Kirstjen. It was Kirstjen Nielsen. He said, I want you to look into something for me. I want to know if we can dig a giant moat at the border and fill it with alligators and snakes. And Kirstjan's listening to this, and I see her face contort, and she puts the thing on speakerphone as we're sitting there and brings me into the conversation with the boss. And we, you know, we basically ask him to rerun what he's just said. Yep, we heard it right. The president wants to know if we could dig a moat. And just keep in mind, the southern border is almost 2,000 miles long. President of the United States wants to dig a moat because in his mind, that doubles the height of the border wall. If you dig it down as high as it is, it doubles the height. But then he wants to put two different types of reptiles in that moat, alligators and snakes. And not just for show. The president made clear in that conversation it was evident that he wanted migrants to fear that they would fall into that moat and be attacked or eaten alive. It would be a real weird thing, Jim, if this was you over beers proposing to me that we with reptiles in it. But this is the President of the United States in the middle of the morning fantasizing about a man eating zoo stretching across the border. And here was the thing. I mean, you know, Kirstjen and I weren't laughing about this as the President was saying it, because we knew it wasn't a joke coming from him. And incredibly, what we had to do to get him off of this insane idea was not appeal to Donald Trump's morality, not appeal to his humanity, because that is not the type of thing that can dissuade him from doing something deeply immoral and likely illegal. It was to appeal to his penny pinching nature. He is a famously cheap man and we knew one, that this was impractical and insane and all the things that anyone would know in hearing that proposal. But the only way to get Donald Trump to stop bringing it up was we had to go do back of the envelope McKinsey math to say, all right, how much would it actually cost to dig a gigantic moat and take care of alligators and snakes so they could gobble up innocent people if they fell in? Well, the answer, it turns out, is billions and billions and billions of dollars.

A (44:01)

Right?

C (44:02)

And we know, where are you supposed.

A (44:03)

To find all these alligators?

C (44:05)

Where do you get them? Who takes care of them? What agency is responsible? Do we put border patrol in charge of taking care of alligators? And, you know, we ended up taking him the billions number and he said, you know, oh my God, that's too expensive, you know, and, and he shot down the idea. Now, it came up several other times, and as I later found out, you know, he raised it in front of other people. But here's why it's so worrying, Jim, is stories like that after the first term of Donald Trump were sort of quaint, bizarre anecdotes of this man. To me, they were something much different. They were a preview of what you were going to get as America. If you got a Donald Trump second term, you wouldn't have people trying to persuade him not to do those insane things. You would have people trying to find a way to make them reality. And that is what has happened in the second Trump administration. No, he has not yet built a moat with alligators and snakes, but he has been so fetishizing reptiles to attack migrants that he did bring to fruition a Florida prison camp in the Everglades surrounded by Alligators that it's called Alligator Alcatraz. And unsurprisingly, we have a report this week from the Wall Street Journal that that place is a nightmare. Migrants are living in squalor. They're being denied the opportunity to brush their teeth. They're being denied the opportunity to bathe. There are reports that women who are menstruating are not being given hygiene products and are forced to sit in their blood while they are in detention. This is sith. This is un American. And unfortunately, it was very, very foreseeable. And there's about a million more of those stories of a Donald Trump who wanted to do crazy things in a term one and has maybe not yet had the time to implement them. So, anyway, so I'll get off my soapbox, Jim, but that's the reason I wanted to bring it up today is we are seeing these things, these bizarre fantasies. The President had come to life and there were few that he had more frequently than cruel ways to punish migrants.

A (45:58)

Yeah, no, I mean, you know, I'm tempted to Compare him to Dr. Evil with sharks with lasers attached to their heads and he ends up with ill tempered sea bass. But that put that to the side. There he is his most cruel when it comes to the issue of immigration. And it is not surprising to me that he would fantasize about the mauling of human beings and especially migrant human beings. And that, I think, should give everybody a great deal of pause. And it also shows, I mean, I was talking about this the other day, I think it was with Olivia Miles, about Trump asking whether they could shoot the protesters after George Floyd, remember Mark Esper, the Defense Secretary, said that that had happened. And this is somebody who has sociopathic ideas, it seems to me, when he repeatedly brings up ideas that involve the torture of human beings and he's the President of the United States. And it makes me wonder, based on your experience, Miles, what is it? Because there are people who say he's crazy, he's nuts, he's lost his damn mind. He's, he's old and he just says crazy. He just says crazy stuff because of that. Or is it something more sinister in that? He, There's a, there's a sociopathy here. There is something, there's something seriously wrong with him and it warrants our attention.

C (47:28)

Just as you're saying that, Jim, I'm trying to think of all the different ways I heard the President or his lieutenants describe punishing migrants. And off the top of my head, I heard plans to slice them zap Them, gas them and shoot them.

A (47:44)

They wanted to paint the wall black, right? So they would burn their hands. I remember that one.

C (47:49)

Let's add burn them in. And so putting aside the alligators and snakes and moats, what I mean by slice them is, you know, the President wanted the wall. He probably told us a dozen times, he wanted the wall to be black. He wanted it to be black because in the hot sun, it would burn the hands of migrants if they touched it. And I remember we were on an Air Force One flight, and we were summoned to his cabin because he wanted to talk specifically about the way he wanted the spikes to be shaped, because he wanted to be certain that it would impale someone who tried to climb over the wall. So, you know, think for a second again, you know, you're in the President's cabin on Air Force One, and you're listening to a man describe the possibility of an impaled human body on that wall. And it needs to be bloody and it needs to be gruesome because the other migrants need to look up and they need to see that person dangling by their hand that's gone through that sharp spike. That's the slicing. The zapping was. There was a conversation inside the Trump administration about using this new technology that had been developed at the time that sends, I think it's short burst microwaves towards crowds to create crowd dispersal, but it creates the effect of making your skin feel like it's been lit on fire. And there was a conversation about whether these devices could be purchased and given to Border Patrol to make these people. And keep in mind, it's like a lot of women and children coming across the border. Okay? Imagine the United States of America making little children feel like their bodies have been lit on fire because the President so badly wants them to turn back the other direction. That's the zapping, the gassing, when there was a point at which there was a run on a CBP station at the southwest border, and I remember they had to use tear gas for crowd control. And the President saw this on Fox News, and he thought it was a conscious decision of the Secretary of Homeland Security to just start gassing migrants at the border. And I think we were on the way to Tucker Carlson's studio when we got that phone call. And the President says to the Secretary, this is fantastic. It's amazing what you're doing at the border with the gassing of the migrants. And we were sort of confused what he was talking about, because that's not a decision the Secretary makes. If there's a threat at a location to disperse the crowd. But the President's impression was there was this plan to start gassing them at the border, and he loved that, and he wanted to see more of that. And then, of course, the last thing I mentioned is shooting migrants, is I was there for the conversations when the president said, okay, well, if you can't, you know, he was told, Mr. President, we don't have the right to engage migrants who are unarmed by shooting them. That's illegal. And he said, well, shoot them in the legs. Shoot them in the legs. Again, we're talking about a lot of women and children that are crossing that border. That's just a quick survey of his thoughts is, you know, slicing, burning, zapping, gassing, and shooting migrants at the border. And that's just what I heard, Jim.

A (50:37)

Yeah. And to tie it back to what's happening in Washington, D.C. right now, I mean, I don't know if he really sees the people of Washington, D.C. as fully human. And I sense that he's looking for a spark, he's looking for a provocation so he can unleash holy hell on the people who live in Washington, D.C. or at the very least, the protesters who may come out and protest what's going on here. And I do think that it is very alarming what he's capable of, and it needs to be called out. And so I'm glad you wrote this piece, but it needs to be called out. And I'm just wondering what it's going to take for the Republicans to finally listen to their souls in all of this.

C (51:25)

Well, look, he is a cruel and dangerous man, Jim. And just those anecdotes that I provided, of course, on multiple occasions, Trump's lieutenants have said, that's bullshit, that's not real. Those things haven't happened. Well, guess what? I've got the receipts, and I put a lot of the receipts out there, and I'd be delighted one day in a deposition to name all of the people in Trump's orbit who also were present for these types of conversations. And I'm sure at some point I'll have that opportunity, and I'd welcome them lying under oath about the types of things the man has said. But you don't even need to tell those stories from behind the scenes, because Donald Trump says those things himself. Right. The shooting of the migrants is the thing that he went from talking about in private to talking about in public. And so he implicates himself even when his own advisors want to defend them, to your Question about how do we wake people up and how do they grow a conscience while they're watching this? I hate to say it, but, you know, really, sadly, these anecdotes that we just talked about with migrants clearly haven't shocked the conscience of a lot of these people in my former party, in the Republican Party, I would hope that these types of things happening to Americans might wake them up as well. And as Donald Trump is deploying American forces on US City streets, making US City streets the front line in a new, you know, effective war on the home front, that that would be alarming enough to them. And yet, if it's in a Democratic blue city like Washington, D.C. they seem very willing to turn their heads the other direction. And I don't want to know what that breaking point looks like, because I fear it's a very ugly scenario. And we can go back to where we started part of the conversation, which is January 6th, you and I both felt like after January 6th, how could Republicans possibly continue to stand by this man? It was so shocking. It was so galling. It was an attack on the seat of American government, and the barbarians were right there at the gates, right? They almost stormed the House floor where they could have put members of Congress in mortal danger. They were that close. And I think we all thought, well, I mean, there's nothing more powerful than this to wake up the party to the danger of this man. And yet, within days, many of them had convinced themselves that Donald Trump wasn't responsible for this, and they were right back in his camp. And so I worry it takes something more visceral than a January 6th to be able to have that effect. And unfortunately, I'm not sure that's something that our republic can handle.

A (54:05)

No, I think you're absolutely right. And the piece that you wrote is an excellent piece that ties into all of this. Really appreciate it. Miles, as always, great to talk to you. Let's keep doing these conversations. I think they're making a huge difference. And I mean, part of the thing that I do with my substack is I bring my experiences, the stuff that I witnessed, and. And it helps, I think, tell the story of what's happening to all of us now. And you had these experiences, too, and I think it's. It's so healthy and it's so productive that you're sharing your depth of knowledge, your wealth of knowledge with everybody. So thank you. I appreciate it, man.

C (54:38)

Well, let me leave you with one thing, Jim, which is to say this to folks, is. And you've Heard me say this before, but it's easy to feel like, as one person, you can't have an impact on this stuff. But I'm telling you, as someone who was on the receiving end of the anger and the angst across this country during the first Trump administration, I am telling you, it worked. When there were policies like family separation that should never have been put into place, that got put into place. The outcry from across the country rocked Trump's lieutenants. It rocked Trump himself. They were scared shitless. Not necessarily. Not because of Jim Acosta, although they were scared of Jim Acosta. They were scared of you. They were scared of the listener. They were so scared that you guys were crowdsourcing your anger with this administration. Doing that in this second term will work. Make sure they hear your voice. And, Jim, thank you, as always, for continuing to shine a light, my friend. I appreciate you, man.

A (55:36)

You right back at you. And you keep doing what you're doing because it is invaluable. And I think you're absolutely right. We have to keep the pressure on. We have to keep spotlighting this stuff and not let it, you know, crawl under a rock like Stephen Miller probably does every night. But anyway, Miles, as always, my man, thank you so much. Really appreciate it.

C (55:55)

Thanks, Jim.

A (55:56)

Good to see you. Miles Taylor. I mean, please check out his substack. Subscribe. He just does phenomenal work there. And I do want to say that I think one of the reasons why Trump is doing what he's doing right now in Washington, D.C. is because what he did in LA failed. He tried to invade the second largest city in America, send in the Marines, send in federal agents, try to instigate people there in Los Angeles. And the people of LA did not take the bait. They did not take the bait. And it did not blow up into the inferno that Trump wanted so he could crack skulls. And I think they saw the polling information to Miles point about immigration. They saw the polling information inside the White House, and we've all seen the polling information as to how deeply unpopular his immigration policy is now, the way he treats children with cancer, deporting them out of the country, sweeping people up in restaurants and in Home Depot parking lots. They said they were going after the criminals. They said they were going after the gangbangers. It was a lie. They lied. They absolutely lied. And they continue to lie to this day. And now the public sees right through it. They understand all too well what is going on with the immigration raids that are taking place in this country. They know all too well, what is taking place in some of these detention facilities as Miles was talking about at Alligator, alcatraz, and now DeSantis, because he wants to get back into the good graces of Donald Trump and maga. He's gonna continue to build these facilities in Florida. There's a report out today. He's gonna do another one in North Florida. But it is deeply unpopular with the American people. The American people do not want a policy of cruelty toward migrants in this country. And so what does Donald Trump do? He sends the National Guard into Washington. He wants to say, okay, maybe this is the kind of distraction, maybe this is the kind of brutality that the American people will adopt and make it their own. And as I've written before, Donald Trump wants his cruelty to become your cruelty. Donald Trump wants his inhumanity to become your inhumanity. Donald Trump wants his brutality to become your brutality. And you have to reject. Is your duty, in my view, as a good American, to reject it, because it is not who we are. And I was. Earlier today, I kind of raced in here to do today's show. I was taking my dad to get surgery on his eye. He's getting cataracts taken care of. And we showed up for his appointment. He accidentally ate some food this morning. They said, hey, we can't do the surgery right now. Come back in a few hours. My dad, because of his eye issues, had not seen the movie Superman, so we went to go see the movie Superman. This is all happening earlier this morning over in Northern Virginia, and he hadn't seen the new Superman yet. And I just keep thinking about this scene that's in the movie. And again, I know I shouldn't. I'm a grown man. I shouldn't be talking about comic books where Superman, who is played brilliantly by this new young actor who plays him, talks about good in the world, protecting good in the world, saving good in the world. And Lois Lane. I'm not saying this verbatim, but Lois Lane at one point says, that's not how the world works. You see everything as good versus evil. You see people and you think they're beautiful. And Superman says, well, maybe that's the new punk rock, meaning maybe that's what's cool now. And the disconnect between that sentiment and the reality that we all face today is pretty staggering. I. I will grant you that. But in my view, the way we get out of this, the light at the end of the tunnel, is to keep embracing good, is to stay on the side of good. Maybe you shouldn't throw A sandwich at a police officer, that might be stretching things a little bit. Don't bread on me. Assault with a deli weapon. I'm going to use those lines one more time. Not the hero we ordered, but the hero we got. But anyway. But I do think there's something to that concept. And as simple as it sounds and as Pollyannish as it sounds and as comic book Hollywood as it sounds, it's what I'm going to hold on to. As Donald Trump is trying to come up with all of these different ways to divide us, he's trying to come up with all of these ways to make his cruelty our cruelty, as many ways as he tries to make his inhumanity our inhumanity. The way out of this is to hold on to what is good. And that doesn't mean we're all perfect. Me, far from it. No question about it. Last. I'm last in line in that regard. But it's something to keep striving for. And I will tell you, having been up close with Donald Trump, and I think Miles will agree with this, having been up close with Donald Trump and Adam, who's also been up close with Donald Trump, he hates goodness. He hates good. The idea of good versus evil, brutalizing and inflicting cruelty upon migrants is evil. All of the ways that Miles talked about that Donald Trump has talked about brutalizing immigrants is evil. We are in a fight between good versus evil. And I say the way out of this is to remain on the side of good. As frustrated as we get, as exhausting as it is, as much as he tries to distract us from Jeffrey Epstein, and it's maddening at times, there's no question about it. But the way that we all keep our head on our shoulders, keep our sanity and not descend into that dark world that he inhabits is to stay on the side of good, truth, justice and the American way. All that, too. My thanks to Adam Kinzinger and Miles Taylor and to all of you for watching. Really appreciate it. Thanks for hanging in there, everybody, as always, and consider subscribing and even becoming a paid subscriber if you want to support the work here. But appreciate all your time this afternoon. Thanks for tuning in. Still reporting from Washington, I'm Jim Acosta. Have a good evening. Good night.

B (63:35)

It.