B (5:11)

Two important things I think we should keep in mind. First of all, the situation on the ground. Surprise, surprise, is deteriorating in Venezuela. The current regime, which is really the old regime mentioned. We have not heard back from Jim Acosta. All right, we're going to plunge ahead. We have seen a deterioration on the ground because the old regime is the new regime. All we did was take Maduro out of it. But everyone else is still in place and it's a repressive regime which is increasing the repression. Mobs are out on the street looking for people who may have betrayed the regime in some respect. So there's violence, there are disappearances. Now we don't know whether this regime is going to stick. We don't know what's going to happen to the opposition because the administration has no plan. And what are they going to have to do? I suspect they're going to have to put boots on the ground sooner or later. This Is Iraq, frankly, on steroids. And just as bad is the role of the oil companies. We are told, Norm, that they got a heads up, but Congress did not because this is a regime, I'm talking about our regime, the Trump regime of buy in for the oil companies. And what's even more ironic is the oil companies are very nervous about going back into Venezuela. Why is that? Because they're not dumb. They know that in a year or two their investment could go down the drain once again, that someone will get in there and snatch it. So they're not willing to go in, I predict. Norm, I know it's hard to believe that Donald Trump is going to have to, you can use the word subsidize. I would say bribe the oil companies to go back in to Venezuela to steal oil. So get this, our taxpayers funded a military invasion of another country. We're now going to bribe oil companies to go in, take their oil to then sell back to whomever. This is colonialism gone wild and it is absurd. It's wholly unconstitutional. Donald Trump doesn't get to direct where oil monies go. This is absurd. But this is where we are because we've had a Congress that has been asleep at the wheel.

A (7:48)

You know, I will say the deterioration of congressional oversight, the abdication of their clear constitutional article, one role over war powers, like going in and abducting and kidnapping the head of another government, however terrible he is, and he is terrible, that's for Congress, not the president, to decide. Donald Trump. But Donald Trump is exploiting a series of unwise abdications by Congress. Those push the envelope. He's busted through the envelope and run it through the shredder. The corruption, bringing, bringing it back, Jen, to the larger structure of what we've seen from the, from Donald Trump's administration. So many themes are present in this latest adventure. The sheer corruption. Remember it leaked that he told the oil companies that they should raise a billion dollars for him. They, their executive. He said this during his campaign in a closed door meeting because he will pay them back. I'm paraphrasing and summarizing. So this whole adventure of blood for oil. And I have a big essay coming with the Bush ethics czar, Richard Painter, myself and the Clinton ethics advisor, Ginny Cantor coming today. And actually a Trump Ethics Office of Government ethics official who quit in protest, came to work with us, is also joining.

B (9:43)

Right, Norm? Oh, we have Jim in our chat. Jim, I have called you if you would pick up on the live invite, you can join us. Hi, Jim.

A (9:56)

So if you can go to substack and you'll see. You have an invitation from Jen. Yeah, just click on that. Yes, Open your substack, exit out and redo. We miss you, Jim. We want you.

B (10:10)

Yes, this is live. We can't say it's live tv. It's live substack. As we talk about.

A (10:17)

Yeah, we're going to ask Jim about cbs. It's like the golden age of television when.

B (10:22)

Yes.

A (10:23)

Fell over.

B (10:24)

Exactly. So, Jim, hopefully you'll be able to join us. I have a message that says waiting for Jim Acosta and the little circles going around and around. So j. Try to join us if you can. All right. We will keep going until Jim finds.

A (10:38)

So. Yes. So this. So, yes. But even there, Trump is trying to get the benefits to the oil companies. But even there, Jen, he's so clumsy in his.

B (10:51)

I'm so sorry.

C (10:53)

Sorry, sorry.

B (10:53)

You made it.

A (10:54)

Apologize, Jim.

C (10:56)

I'm sorry.

A (10:57)

I got all your airtime, right?

B (11:00)

Jim, where have you been?

C (11:02)

I'll be here the rest of the day. Just, just.

A (11:05)

I'll tell the people. I. I was one of Jim's very first guests on.

C (11:11)

I know.

A (11:11)

First True. And what happened, Jim, You're.

C (11:14)

You're the one guy I can't stiff.

A (11:16)

Yeah, the cell phone fell over in the middle of our live broadcast. The premiere of the Jim Acosta Show. Welcome.

C (11:24)

Welcome, guys. Thank you.

B (11:27)

Well, I have to say, despite our little troubles, our production values are still higher than the CBS Evening News.

C (11:35)

Oh, my gosh. That's right. Oh, goodness.

B (11:38)

Oh. So since we have Jim, let's go there.

C (11:42)

Oh, boy.

B (11:43)

You know, cbs, not only did they spike that report on Seek God, they have now turned into a rooting society for Marco Rubio, among other people.

C (11:55)

I saw that. Oh, God.

B (11:57)

What do you make of what's going on over there? I mean, it's just unbelievable and must be so demoralizing for people who are actual journalists.

C (12:05)

Yeah. And my heart goes out to some of the real journalists who are there. I'm sure they. They have many. And, And Norm knows, you know, from dealing with folks in the industry. And, and you, too, Jen. And, and first of all, thank you, guys. My apologies. I owe you so many. I woke up with a slight cold this morning, and it's been a. It's been a snowball effect. But anyway, love means never having to.

A (12:28)

Say you're sorry, Jim.

C (12:30)

Thank you. I appreciate it. Well, mea culpa. Mea culpa, anyway. But no, I mean, over at cbs, you know, as much as I'm associated with My old place at CNN. I worked at CBS News in the 2000s and was a young correspondent there, wet behind the ears. And for some reason Dan Rather and Bob Schieffer were very tolerant of me and being so young. And I was always just in awe of the place. Working with the likes of Dan and Scott Pelley and Schieffer. I mean, there were just so many incredible, incredible people. And to see where they're at right now, it's an absolute travesty. And first of all, I mean, Barry Weiss, you know, we're on Substack. She ran a successful substack. That's fine. I guess we do too. That means we could run CBS News. She has no business running.

B (13:24)

You could, Jim, that's the point. You're an actual newsletter.

A (13:28)

You could.

C (13:29)

Well, she has no business running CBS News. She's there, obviously, because the corporate titans who are now running that network want to turn it into Fox News over the broadcast airwaves. And it's absolute travesty. And when I saw that clip last night, I thought it was something from Saturday Night Live. Yeah, I can't believe you would end your show with some sort of tribute to Marco Rubio. He's the Secretary of State. I've never seen a broadcast network ever do that. Even like after George W. Bush standing on the pile on 9 11. I mean, there were tributes to him, I suppose, from like regular citizens and stuff. But what Dan Rather did at that time was say courage at the end of a show. You know what I mean? Nothing like this. And so, you know, it goes way beyond the bounds of normal journalism.

A (14:21)

Journalism, even Newsmax doesn't do. I know, it was like North Korean state television.

C (14:28)

It was like out handed Hannity, you know, I mean, it was just right.

B (14:33)

But Bizarro World as a strategy, they're going to lose their entire audience. Small as it may be, no one who really wants this kind of stuff is going to bother with cbs. If you want the real stuff, you're going to drink right from the hose, go over to, you know, OAN or Fox or the rest of it. And anyone who's looking for anything resembling decent news isn't gonna bother. So what's the strategy for even keeping this thing on the air?

C (15:00)

Well, let me tell you what I think is going on. And I've heard this from a number of corporate executives over the years in television news and that is, hmm, maybe we should be more like Fox. And if we're more like Fox, then some of those Fox viewers will come over and start watching us. It is a fool's errand. It's never going to work. The people who watch Fox, they want to watch Fox because you know of what Roger Ailes and you know, what they created over there, which is basically a Republican House organ. And those viewers are baked in. The people who watch this is what somebody, this is what a producer once said to me when I started at. And if I may use an explanative, I will. When I started at CBS News back In the early 2000s, the people who watch the CBS Evening News are smart fucking people. And they don't want propaganda, they don't want government sanctioned news. And this is the problem. This is why I say our media system is broken in this country and that we have state compromised media. Because you cannot have the government with its thumb on these major news organizations. And the people at home, they can figure this out, they can sniff it out and they're going to say, we're not going to watch this, we're not going to go along with this. You know, we're just going to go to different places. And that's why independent media is flourishing.

B (16:22)

Right. That is what has happened, obviously at my old place, the Washington Post, which I left one year ago today on January 2005, and they just ran an atrocious editorial praising Trump for going to war unilaterally, illegally, unconstitutionally against Venezuela. They have some to, you know, frankly, at this point, in many, on many days, the editorial page of the Wall Street Journal, which is horrible, is actually more credible than the Washington, Washington Post.

C (16:59)

Yeah, their coverage has been good.

B (17:01)

They occasionally analyze Trump. Jim, we want to get back to your expertise because first of all, you're a Cuban American and secondly, because you have your finger on the pulse of not only the community here, but communities in Central and South America. What's been the reaction to the Venezuela episode? Are people further alienated from Trump because now he's not only rounded them up on ice and threatened them here, but invaded country? Or is there a contingent that's happy that he knocked out Maduro?

C (17:38)

Yeah, and before we get into that, kudos to what you said about the Washington Post. I canceled my subscription, which I, you know, I thought was something that people, people maybe shouldn't do. But I, when they supported bulldozing part of the White House, I said, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna pay for this newspaper anymore. But anyway, putting that to the side on Venezuela, one of the things that has been happening, I kind of wondered whether part of the motivation for Trump and Rubio and his bunch and what they did with Maduro was the politics of Florida. And I think they were starting to lose the Venezuelan community. They were starting to lose the Cuban American community down in Miami with these ICE raids and, you know, rounding up Abuela and all of this stuff. And I, you know, if you look at. Flash forward to the last couple of days, you know, people are jubilant down in that part of Miami. But I think I've seen Mike Maduro shouldn't say Mike Maduro, Mike Madrid, the guy, I think, with the Lincoln Project, who looks at Hispanic politics and sort of looks at that demographic. You know, the Latino community is not a monolithic community. Cuban Americans don't vote the same as Mexican Americans and so on and so forth. And even down in Miami, the Cuban American community is not a monolithic group. And so, you know, I think they were starting to see that sort of flare up as an issue for them. I don't know if it was the overarching issue, but I think it was. It was something that was flaring up for them. I don't know how much it really changes the Latino vote in this country to their benefit. Because, listen, if you look at the way they've gone upside down on immigration, a lot of that is driven by Latino voters saying thumbs down. Hell, no. They're really furious with Donald Trump across the board, no matter which slice of the Latino community pie that you're a part of. And this ICE policy has been an utter debacle for them, politically speaking. It may juice their base. I don't even know if it works on Fox anymore. I mean, people are just absolutely disgusted and appalled by this. And it's all driven by Stephen Miller, who has this sort of nationalistic, fascist zeal that is so un American, it makes everybody sick.

B (20:00)

Right? I mean, he sounds like, you know, Germany in the 1930s. We need more territory, we need land, we need their resources.

A (20:08)

Jim, what's. What's the connection between the two topics that we've broached here? On the one hand, you see increasing illegality and adventurism on the part of Donald Trump, by the way, increasing failure in every area, right? He said, I'll write eos. I'll use the power of the pen and the power of the purse. I'm gonna abuse Grant. He's been stopped by the courts. He says, oh, then I'll prosecute my enemies. He stopped there in Comey, and James, he says, fine, I'll deploy the National Guard, even the Supreme Court says you can't deploy the National Guard, so now he's gone over to Venezuelan. In the international scene, you have Donald Trump running amok at the same time as traditional media is coming undone, but independent media, which the three of us represent, getting stronger. What do you make of the connection between these transformations in the media landscape and Donald Trump's adventurism? Does it make things more dangerous that mainstream media does not provide as much of a check and even CBS is bowing down, or does independent media make up for it?

C (21:33)

Well, you know, maybe all of the above, Norm. I think, to some extent, you know, independent media is. It sort of reminds me of the line from Jurassic park, nature finds a way. And I think we're in a moment right now where if the corporate media is just going to fail us and not meet the moment, then you're going to see sort of the evolution of a new media in this country. You know, I had a town hall last night over at the National Press club with the January 6th police officers. Mike Fanone, Harry Dunn, Akalina Gannell, Daniel Hodges also had Adam Kinzinger and Heather Cox Richardson. And Heather Cox Richardson, the noted historian, she pointed out that in the late 1800s, as Teddy Roosevelt was coming in, it was sort of a new progressive era, busting the trusts, reforming Americ, you know, through going after the barons and so on. That actually, at that time, independent media, a new kind of media, rose up in that moment. And so it does, she said, and she was pointing it out this way. It's sort of a. It can be like a reflection of the times, historically speaking, for this country. And we're sort of going through that era right now. You know, sort of like Edward R. Murrow reporting during World War II and how that brought about the rise of network news. We may see this continue to grow and prosper and thrive, simply because our corporate media overlords completely shit the bed in this moment. I mean, they just completely. They've just let us down totally and completely. And so that's why folks are coming here. They're going to YouTube. They're going everywhere else.

B (23:16)

Exactly. Jim, I wanted to ask you about that phenomenal January 6th really program that you did. What struck you most about that, both positive and negative, about how we have dealt with the legacy of January 6th.

C (23:33)

You know, I'll tell you a little bit of how this took place. So Harry Dunn came to me and he said, jim, this is about a month ago, Jim, he says, we've hardly gotten any media requests. We've hardly heard from Anybody in the corporate media come to us and ask us to comment on January 6th. And, I mean, I can't believe it. And I said, well, let's just go do something ourselves. And that's how we started this whole thing. And we got it going. And my sense of it is, is that it is an absolute, I mean, just crying shame, a national shame, that our nation's news media did not do more to honor these police officers who stood up and defended our democracy on January 6th. I mean, and I said this last night during our event at the National Press Club, a real president of the United States would have had those officers over at the White House putting his arms around them and saying. Or her arms around them and saying, thank you for what you did for this country. Thank you for saving our Capitol. Thank you for saving our democracy. Can you imagine what would have happened that night if those rioters, those insurrectionists, those thugs had been able to just take over our government in that moment? And how many dead lawmakers, we would have. I mean. I mean, it could have been Armageddon in this country, and those police officers saved the day, and they are still dealing with the consequences of it. And I will tell you, you know, Mike Fanone, I think he said it best last night. He said to all of you in maga, I ain't going anywhere. And these officers, I were, you know, I keep in touch with them. And when Trump got reelected and he pardoned those rioters, they really got depressed. They really got defeated. They felt bad about what was happening in this country. And Mike Fanone says, hey, I feel betrayed. I was betrayed. And he's right.

B (25:30)

Yes.

C (25:32)

But as Harry Dunn was telling us last night, they have developed a new sense of purpose. They are now driven by this feeling, the spirit that has been instilled in them that we have to save this democracy. We have to save this country. The way they were on the front lines of the Capitol, they are now on the front lines of this democracy. And it's really inspiring. And the long story of what we're going through right now, I think they're going to figure prominently in it. And my God, these media guys, I do this almost every day. I feel like my abuela, you know, like, holding her head and making sure it's still there, saying, dios mio.

A (26:18)

What.

C (26:18)

Has happened to our news organizations? Why is it that last night on the. It was on the CBS Evening News that the anchors said, well, on the one hand, Donald Trump blamed Nancy Pelosi, and on the other hand, Hakeem Jeffries says it was because of the rioters and insurrectionists. And I'm thinking to myself, no, we're not gonna both sides. What we saw with our own eyes and what we know to be true.

B (26:46)

Exactly. It really is pathetic. You also had some lawyers on last night. What was their take in terms of the legal legacy, not only because of the Supreme Court's decision to essentially remove any threat of criminal liability, but because of sort of the reign of legal terror that he has enacted since then. Were they optimistic, depressed? Did they see any green shoots there?

C (27:15)

Well, you know, we had Glenn Kirschner there and you know Mark Zaid, the famous attorney who defends a lot of the whistleblowers, he was in the audience. We were so appreciative that he was there. But you know Glenn Kirschner and we all know him and love him, he's wonderful. You know, he, you know, he made the point, and we've all talked about this, that what the Supreme Court did under Chief Justice John Roberts, it has changed. It has fundamentally changed this country. And we're now seeing the impacts of that. Donald Trump thinks he has a blank check to do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, however he wants. And this is what we all warned. This is what Norm warned, this is what Jen warned, this is what everybody warned, that Donald Trump would go back. It is supercharged with jet fuel, his dictator like ambitions. And Glenn was saying he still has a feeling, though, that accountability can be had. We're only, you know, a quarter of a halfway through this story and we just don't know what's gonna happen on the other side. Might we get a new president? Might we get new Supreme Court justices? I know people might go crazy and panic when I say this, but, but do you have a new progressive movement in this country that insists on, perhaps on expanding the court?

B (28:36)

Yes, exactly.

C (28:37)

And putting new justices in there and say, Mitch McConnell, if you're still with us, you packed the court, you stack the deck. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. We're going to have more justices on the court to bring balance to the court and a new rational court where the justices take their MAGA hats off and put the American flags back into the chamber. Can you please revisit some of these issues? Because, and you guys could explain this better than me, the Supreme Court has had moments of honor and shame throughout our history. And separate but equal and so on. You know, these are concepts and principles that don't stand the test of time. And go ahead Norm?

A (29:25)

Yeah, Jim, there are landmarks that you're pointing to. The Dred Scott case, upholding the fugitive slave laws, Plessy v. Ferguson authorizing Jim Crow, and Trump v. United States, saying the president has the power even to dispatch the Delta Force to commit murders if it's in his official capacity to. That has to change. I will say before we talk about what we're looking forward to.

C (29:55)

Yeah.

A (29:56)

I will say that to offer a slightly different perspective on the past year, broader lens. What the Roberts court has done is reprehensible, but they were sniffing the wind. It was a political judgment, much like big media, much like big law. They said, oh, this authoritarian. We must bow down to the authoritarian regime. And now they're seeing the weakness of Donald Trump. And with that, I believe we may be coming to a point they deserve no plaudits for it because like the political bow down, the political resistance that's coming is not the role of a court. Their court is to up. Their role is to uphold the law. But with that National Guard decision, you're seeing a turn that is coming. I think Trump is going to lose on tariffs, where we represent conservatives. In that case, powered by contrarian paid subscriptions. I think he's going to lose on Birthright. That's another one of our cases that's up there at the court. And you're going to see a series of losses. On the more foreboding side, Jen and I have been talking about this a lot. There's a opinion going to be announced on Friday and it's either going to be the tariffs case, which we're hopeful about. It could also be the Calais case, the redistricting case, which they wipe out. Further to your point, they wipe out up to two dozen black and brown congressional districts, plus countless state legislative, not just federal legislation, legislative seats, but state ones. And they reinstitute Jim Crow. So Jen and I are tracking very closely which Supreme Court are we going to get on Friday morning. Anyhow, over to Jen to ask what we're all looking forward to.

B (32:01)

Absolutely. So let's start with you, Jim. What are you looking forward to?

C (32:07)

Well, I'm looking forward to, I think this is, you know, the 250th anniversary of, of this incredible experiment. And I know people are down in the dumps. I said in my closing thoughts last night that 2025 was the year of bending the knee. To Norm's point, I think this is the year when America stands tall. And I think that what we're starting to see, what we're starting to feel this energy, the spirit that we're all starting to feel is America coming back. And we saw some of this during those gubernatorial races in November of last year where, you know, gosh, Mikey Sherrill, you know, she might lose this race. This is what the conventional wisdom from the media was. You know, folks, I feel like Donald Trump sometimes complaining about the media now, which is, I'm, it's like an out of body experience. But I am going to complain the media, but the way, you know, when they're like, oh, you know, Mikey Sheryl, she might, I don't know if she's going to make it. You know, she might. And then she wins by 13 points. And Abigail Spanberger wins by 15 points in Virginia. And even the unfortunate, you know, attorney general candidate in Virginia who was supposed to lose because of these crazy texts that he put, he even, he wins that race. And you know, in Tennessee, there's the Afton Bain running for Congress in a district that was 23 plus Republican. She only loses by 8. So one of the things that's happening right now is an awakening. And there are Americans, this is my sense of it, that people are picking themselves up off of the mat. They're dusting themselves off. And people are hopping mad. They're hopping mad, not just about what Norm was talking about. They're mad at the Supreme Court. I saw people saying, 13 justices. Why not 15 justices? If somebody wants to clip this and put this on fox, you go right ahead. We're in a moment right now. People are not gonna settle for the half loaf. They're not gonna want Obamacare with no public option for the nerds out there who remember that debate, people are gonna, they're gonna want the full Monty. And into this year, going into 2027, mark my words, there's going to be a voter revolt in this country. It has already begun. And you know, look at what RFK Jr is doing with public health and childhood vaccinations. It's absolutely bananas. And think about all of the swing district soccer moms who are like, what the hell is going on? And yes, they brainwash. There's maybe 5 to 10% of the moms at the soccer game who've gone cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs and believe this stuff now. But the great vast majority of us do not believe this stupid nonsense. And that is just one tiny segment of what has people so outraged right now. And it is just beginning. So buckle up, fasten your seatbelts. Donald Trump is gonna get crazier and crazier he's gonna try to invade other places. And we need to tell our NATO allies, don't freak out and dissolve NATO if he puts boots on the ground in Greenland. Just hang in there. Everybody just has to hang in there until support comes, until the cavalry comes in early 2027. And people might say, jim, you know, what did they put in your coffee this morning? You know, what was the. You know, was it 100 proof? Was it 200 proof?

A (35:44)

What are they putting in? Yes, Jim, it. It is like the Tea Party with much more caffeine.

C (35:50)

But I'm telling you, I think it is happening.

A (35:53)

It's happening so far.

B (35:55)

Exactly.

A (35:56)

Well, I can't, Jen, I can't improve on that for what I'm looking forward to. So. Looking forward to everything he said coming to pass, right?

B (36:06)

So, like, I'll have what he's having, right? You know, for my sake, for my point of view, I am looking forward to a vote in the House on the extension of the ACA subsidies, a complete repudiation of Donald Trump and Republicans who wouldn't touch this. And that's why we had the massive shutdown. And lo and behold, there may be a compromise in the Senate to do not a three year, but a two year with some other little bells and whistles. If they can do this, this would be a gigantic win for Democrats. A complete repudiation of maga, of Donald Trump. And by the way, we will have a new tagline about the shutdown, and that is, Democrats won, Republicans lost, you get your health care. And I think that may be where we're headed. A sign of the times and a sign that just because Donald Trump goes attacks, invades, kidnaps a foreign leader doesn't mean that he gets any more political sway back home. And in fact, his power may be ebbing. So thank you. Thank you, Jim. We're so glad to have you.

A (37:19)

We love you, Jim.

B (37:21)

We love you, Norm. Take care. Drive safe. And contrarians. We love you. See you later.

C (37:27)

Thank you, guys. Bye, guys. Great conversation. Good to see you.

A (37:41)

Sam.