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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Welcome to the Jim Acosta Show. And it's another day that ends in Y and Donald Trump's assault on the free press and freedom of speech. And a perfect guest to that note is Don Lemon, the great Don Lemon with us. Don, great to see you. You. And I've been going back and forth trying to figure out a time to. To talk about all of this. How are you doing? How you holding up?
- [00:28]
B
I'm doing okay. And it's good to see you. It's good to see that you're still in the fight. You're still doing great. And I love the breaking news. I love the Jim Acosta show, the report. So I'm doing okay. It's. It's a lot, as you know. But. Well, maybe, I don't know. They took your press pass, but they didn't take your freedom. So it's a little bit different. Right.
- [00:47]
A
Is that like Braveheart or something? Is that like, what, Take away our press, remember that? They can take away our lives, but they can't. I know, whatever that was. Bad reference. Dated. Very badly dated reference. No, I mean, no, I, you know, my press pass thing is, I mean, no, I, I didn't get locked up. I thought my career was going to come to an end. But, you know, this is far more serious than what you're going through right now. And I, you know, I've been describing this as the jailing journalist phase of Donald Trump's authoritarian project, and he's playing for keeps. And I think this is not just a message directed at you, it's directed at everybody in this country.
- [01:30]
B
Yeah, I'm glad you, I, I'm glad you realize that, because this is. Yeah, look, I happen to be, you know, the central character in my part of the story, but the bigger story, this goes way beyond Don Lemon. And I think you would feel the same way if you, you know, if you, if this happened to you, because what they're trying to do is decide, and this is a very dangerous place to be in, what protests you can cover and what you can't. What, you know, and that would go to what wars you can cover and what you can. And, and, and I, or, you know, what stories you can cover and what you can. Just like what's happening at the Pentagon, as, you know, you gotta sign the thing if you wanna report on the Pentagon, that they have to approve it. So it's that. And then the other thing is, is that they're trying to decide who gets to be a journalist and who's not a Journalist. And I've seen, you know, some random stories of people going, well, is Don Lemon a journalist? And who's a journalist? Like, what. What the are you talking about? I've been doing this for 30 years, of course. Is that all gone then? Now that I'm independent and then I'm not with a news organization and I'm all of a sudden not a journalist? It's just ridiculous. I actually had to confront one of our old colleagues the other day on that.
- [02:35]
A
Yeah, well, and I hate that. I honestly hate that crap because, you know, there's a lot of professional envy and jealousy in our business, and it brings out the worst in people. But as I've been saying, and I've done a couple of hits on Ms. About this. Like, you know, we. We just have to support you in all this. And I, you know, I consider you a friend and a colleague and of course, a fellow fellow journalist. And what are we going to do? I mean, we're not going to support one another right now. Like, give me a break. This is the, you know, what's next? Closing down news organizations. Like, we just can't have that. That kind of thing in this country. But I. The other question, I mean, but really, Don, like, how are you doing? How are you feeling? Are you. Is this overwhelming? Are you able to deal with this? Like, what's it. What's it been like?
- [03:21]
B
Well, it look overwhelming, but not in the sense where I can't handle it. And I can always shut it down and say, you know what? I need a break. But I'm not going to stop. I'm still going to do my show. I'm still going to discuss what I can discuss about it. I'm not going to litigate it in the press. I'm not going to, you know, talk about things legally that I. For which I, you know, I can't talk about.
- [03:41]
A
But.
- [03:42]
B
And it's not going to, you know, this is not going to stop me, as it wouldn't stop you. And so, yeah, it's. It's a bit overwhelming. The attention is something that, as a journalist that, you know, is that you don't want. I don't mind people stopping me as they have since I've been doing, since I've been in this business, you know, for a selfie or for a picture or, you know, for. To say hello or an autograph, whatever that means. But this is quite different. People engage on a different level. And then, you know, the MAGA folks are. Can be a bit unhinged and violent. As we know from January 6th. And so that's concerning for me as well.
- [04:21]
A
Yeah. And. But, Don, I mean, to the point that you made earlier, and I, I don't understand why people don't get this. You, you say in the video. I've been pointing this out repeatedly. You say in the video, I'm here as a journalist. I'm here covering this. That's what I'm doing. We play the video. You, you say it, you know, not part of the group, photographing.
- [04:38]
B
I'm a journalist.
- [04:39]
A
I'm a journalist. Yeah. I'm here photographing numerous times. People not understand.
- [04:45]
B
I don't know. It's weird because they kept saying it even when I told them that I'm not. And I think they were looking at me. And. Because the bulk of the protesters were black, maybe they thought because I'm black then. And I kept saying, I'm not a protester. I'm here covering the protest. I'm not with them. And they were, you know, they just, for some reason, could not understand, and I had to keep telling them that I'm not part of the group. I'm just here for photographing. And I would say chronicling or whatever it is. And that's. That's it, Jim. So why they couldn't figure that out, I don't know. And you don't. You never. The only time you see me in that going or to anywhere up to anyone was when I went into the crowd to interview the other person, the. The protester, the woman who was leading the protest, or when I was going for the past. I'm not part of the group.
- [05:33]
A
I'm just here. I'm a journalist, anyway. Yeah, no, I mean, and even when you're talking to the pastor, you know, that did not seem like a. Like a heated confrontation or anything. You just. You're talking to him.
- [05:47]
B
It wasn't heated. He stood there and talked to me for a long time. And then. So, look, I will just say in this, the video speaks for itself. I mean, they can, as they. They can try to do as they did with Renee Good. As they did with Alex Preddy. They can try to get people to believe something other than what they're seeing with their eyes and hearing with their ears, and that's what they will try to do. But I think that. I think the video is. Tells you everything that I was there doing what I'm. I was there doing journalism, which is what I was supposed to be doing, which is what I went there to do. And that's It, Yeah.
- [06:26]
A
And I mean, one of the things we should point out, I mean, Trump did respond to this and he claimed he didn't know anything about it, which I don't believe. And then he said about you, he said he's a sleazebag. Everyone's known that he's a wash up. But he said probably from his standpoint, the best thing that could have happened to him. I love when Trump does that. He sort of did that with my press pass thing. He was like, well, it wasn't so bad what Jim did, but it's probably been good for him. It's like, first of all, we know, you and I both know that Donald Trump was, I, I mean, or maybe you don't feel this way, but it seems to me he had some involvement in this. There's, you know, whether it's just griping about you, making it clear he doesn't like you, and then the way they sycophantically react to everything that he does. I mean, to say, oh, I didn't know about it, or, you know, I wasn't aware of it. It's just, come on.
- [07:14]
B
Of course he's aware of it. If he wanted to, he can tell them, look, don't do this, and they would do it. Right, right. And even if he wasn't aware of it at that point, he could say in this, and he didn't. So look, that's very telling. Look, Donald Trump is a compulsive liar, as we know, and if his lips are moving, he's probably lying. And so we know that. So why would you believe anything that ever comes out of his mouth when he has been proven to lie consistently on a daily basis? So do I think he didn't know anything about this? No, I don't believe that. Does he have some involvement in it? Of course he has involvement in it. He hired all the people who are going after me. Those are his hires. So he is involved just by simply being the President of the United States and their boss.
- [08:00]
A
And he's going after his perceived political enemies, the people in his, in his broken psyche, you know, that he feels like he has to lash out at and get revenge for whatever has occurred in the past. I have no idea. But he goes after Comey, you know, he goes after Tish James. He goes after all these people and, and his administration responds. The Justice Department is basically an instrument of.
- [08:23]
B
And look how those worked out for him.
- [08:25]
A
Well, and they didn't work out so well. And I think your case is gonna, is gonna fall Apart in the exact same way. They don't have a case. But, I mean, is there something to the fact that he's able to get away with this that should be chilling to every American? I mean, he can't. He can't put you in prison permanently, but he can harass you and make your life difficult, and he can continue to do this to other people.
- [08:52]
B
Well, as I said in my statement after the, the, the hearing that I had last week is that the process is the punishment. And so just by doing it, they think that that's enough because they want to embarrass you. They want. They want to send a message to the MAGA faithful. And it's. Most people see through it. The MAGA folks are like, oh, my gosh, yeah, get him. And other people are like, what are you doing? This is stupid. Most people, most sane, rational, thinking people understand there is a difference between a protester and a journalist. And they also understand when they've crossed the line from Democratic. A democratic administration to an authoritarian regime, which is the territory that we're in right now.
- [09:38]
A
Absolutely. And, and you said that you might have some important information to share, some new information.
- [09:42]
B
Well, no, I just said I didn't talk to you last week, but just things that I shared afterwards. And as you know, and from my attorney that we serve the. The prosecutors with two pages of demands for what they claim is evidence. Last week, we announced our intention for this case to have the grand jury transcripts released to show the charges are baseless. And we made it clear that we will move to dismiss the charges as violating the First Amendment. And so. And that's directly from my attorney. That's what I can share with you, and that's what has been shared publicly. And so, you know, that's where we are right now. So I am going to fight this.
- [10:29]
A
Good. Well, and, and with my press pass case, we had to go to federal court, and we fought this on due process grounds and First Amendment grounds. But the lawyer that we had at the time, Ted Olsen, the famous Ted Olsen, who was in the Bush v. Gore case and, and lots of other cases over the years, said that we had a better chance on. On due process grounds. But it sounds like you're going to fight this out on First Amendment grounds. I mean, I think there's also the element of vengeful prosecution, that the judge could just look at this and say, this is obviously a personal vendetta here.
- [11:03]
B
Look, you'll have to ask the attorneys about that. I think maybe that may be getting Ahead a little bit too much. I think the thing is, is to fight this one and see what happens next. But I have heard other folks say similarly. I've heard someone sent me a clip of Ellie Honig saying that someone sent me a clip of what's his name over on Midas, the one who, gosh, why can't I think of his name anyways, who is a, an attorney. And gosh, I forget. But anyway, he said he says something similarly. But, you know, that's what I'm hearing from them. I don't know that I'm not an attorney. And I think that, you know, if we get to that bridge, we'll cross it when we get to it, if we get to it.
- [11:41]
A
And I'm sure you saw the Colbert thing. I mean, they're going after Colbert. You know, look at James talarigo. He raises $2.5 million. Colbert gets more views on YouTube than he did on CBS. There's something about the way they're going about this that it's boomeranging, it's backfiring on them. It's. And it helped, it's helped you. It's elevated your platforms, which is wonderful. Grateful to see that.
- [12:07]
B
Well, you know, Donald Trump, I guess, says, yeah, he thinks that everything is all the press is good for him, but not now. I think he's lost it as it relates to what's going on. Knowing what's happening in the zeitgeist and having a feel of where public sentiment is. I think they, he and his administration have missed the boat on this one. And look, it's not just my algorithm. It's conservatives who tell me the same thing, like, we don't like what's happening. We don't agree with what they're doing. This is not I, I people all the time. Don, I don't agree with much that you say or that's on your show, but this is wrong. I'm a conservative. I'm a Trump supporter. This is terrible. This is not good for us. They don't understand it. And so I think that they have completely misjudged how people are going to feel about this, just as they completely misjudged how people feel and would accept those ICE goons on the streets rounding up people without due process, dragging women across the ice, across the ground. Nursery school, preschool teachers, parents who are in the pickup line for school, you know, kids, infants, they completely misjudge that, which is why they are rejiggering their whole approach to ICE now in Minnesota and beyond. And they're pulling people out to try to change public sentiment so that their poll numbers will be better. They've just missed the boat. And I believe Donald Trump does not understand that. I think that he is clueless as to what's going on and he has people in his ear who are telling him the exact opposite of what they should be telling him.
- [13:37]
A
Yeah, I mean, they're the ones that have the problem in Minnesota. Not, not you, Don. And the other thing is that Pam Bondi has bigger problems, it seems to me.
- [13:44]
B
But Jim, the Dow, the Dow, The Dow is at 50, 000. Why are you laughing, Jim? I mean, you're a good stock trader. Like I hear that. I mean, the Dow and then the Nasdaq is at 7,000. I mean, come on, they got to.
- [14:00]
A
Get Pam on, on CNBC or something. But, you know, but, but here's the other thing. They, they've arrested you, Don. But have they arrested anybody in the, in the Jeffrey Epstein case? All these files, all these clowns that have, you know, been revealed and exposed as being pedophiles and freaks. Why aren't we rounding those up?
- [14:21]
B
No, and as far as I know, no one has been detained as it relates to the death of Alex Preddy, who was a, a law abiding, gun carrying person. Right. Who had the right to carry, or Renee Good. And, and just, just detained and questioned and investigated. So we, I'm not saying that they're guilty, but no one has been charged or investigated or brought in for questioning that we know about because they are, they are withholding the information from local authorities and even trying to get local people, not allowing local people to file charges against the ICE officers or to even investigate the ICE officers. And look at all the people who are mentioned in the Epstein files, including, and especially the President of the United States, who's mentioned more times than anyone except for, I believe Jeffrey Epstein and maybe Glenn Maxwell in, in the, in the Epstein files. They're not asking him, they're not hauling him down into Washington in front of a congressional or Senate subcommittee or any sort, even in front of a, someone to do a deposition of some sort. No one is asking him to do it, but they're asking Bill Clinton to do it. And Bill Clinton hasn't been president since what, the late 1990s.
- [15:33]
A
So, you know, hey, people can figure this stuff out. People can figure this stuff out. And I think when Donald Trump is in the Epstein files 38,000 times, there's got to be one of those times where there's a Problem. It just seems to me like. Do we know that? We don't know that for a fact, but it seems to me.
- [15:50]
B
Well, look, we're only left to our own devices if they're not being transparent about it. I mean, and if they're not offering context, if they're not. If they are. If they are redacting parts of the files that should not be redacted, how are we to know? And why should we believe them? Again, he's a compulsive liar. The fish rots from the head, so everyone below him falls into that, and they can just lie as well, and pretty much with impunity, as long as it's federal. That's why they don't want the. The local people investigating, because they can't, you know, they can't pardon those folks if they are found to be, you know, have to have some liability.
- [16:26]
A
That's right. Yeah. No, we need to release the Don Lemon files. While we're at it, we need.
- [16:30]
B
I want.
- [16:30]
A
I want to get to the bottom of the doc.
- [16:31]
B
That's what my attorney's asking to release the.
- [16:34]
A
You want the Don Lemon files released? We need those documents. We need to see what the hell's going on. Because, you know, Pam Bondi was emailing somebody at the White House. You know, you just know that they were doing I. When my press pass got taken away. You asked Miles Taylor, whoever the communications guy was at the time, the former Fox guy, Bill Shine, apparently went into the Trump Hotel in D.C. and was like, you know, touting the fact, oh, we got his press pass. You know, behind the scenes, they were with you. I just.
- [17:04]
B
They're not just doing it behind the scenes. They're on. They're doing. They're on, like, conservative talk shows saying that we're going to go to the ends of the earth to. This is not. They're. They're not. They're not hiding it. I mean, Donald Trump tweeted, I should go to jail for prison for 40 years. And then he called me, as you said, a sleaze bag. Now, as far as I know. Well, and not as far as I know. I know that I have not cheated on every wife that I've had because I haven't had any wives. I've only had one husband, not cheated. I have not slept with any. Or paid off any porn stars to that I have slept with. I have not, you know, and beyond that, another point star. I have not, like, cheated on someone when I had an infant child at home. I have not been convicted of 34 felony counts of anything. I have not been found liable in a. In a civil court for sexual abuse or sexually assaulting anyone. And he has nerves, the nerve to call me a sleaze bag.
- [18:07]
A
Sounds pretty sleazy.
- [18:09]
B
I mean, if you are.
- [18:10]
A
Potty kettle thing. I don't know. Yeah.
- [18:13]
B
If you look at the definition of sleaze bag, I think there might be a big picture of Donald Trump right next to it in the dictionary. I'm just, you know, I'm just saying.
- [18:21]
A
I think if you were to ask the American people who is the biggest sleaze bag in America, I think it would be Donald Trump. Is there. I mean, is there a biggest. A biggest sleaze bag besides Donald Trump? I don't think so. No, I don't.
- [18:34]
B
I don't think so. I mean, yeah, besides, you know, when he was alive, Jeffrey Epstein, But I think that's.
- [18:40]
A
Yeah, that's about it. He no longer qualifies. I want to let you go. And just the one thing I wanted to tell you, Don, is that when I first heard that this had happened to you, I want to tell you how terribly worried I was about you. And I was worried that you were in jail overnight and what that experience was like, because people don't deserve to go through something like that when they haven't done anything wrong. And it just seems to me it was another. The cruelty is. The point is the. Is the phrase that's often used about immigration. But I think they were trying to hurt you. And I think the American people need to understand how terribly and deeply and profoundly wrong that is. So, you know, I just want you to know you got a lot of support behind you, and maybe you don't feel all the time and you see people sniping and saying stupid shit, but you have a lot of support behind you. Don, thank you.
- [19:31]
B
Jim Acosta, thank you. I appreciate that. And at a more appropriate time, when I can share more about that experience, you'll be one of the first people I share it with. But I would just. Not all federal agents are alike, let's just put it that way. There's a difference between the career people who are committed to obeying the Constitution and the rule of law and protocol. And then those other people who are out there with 47 days of experience, those are not the same.
- [20:05]
A
And you had. So you had some folks who were decent, being decent, it seems.
- [20:09]
B
Yes, I did. That's good.
- [20:11]
A
What's next, Don? What do you. What do you got next? Can you focus on other things?
- [20:16]
B
Besides, I do Jim. So you remember when in being produced how much like I was produced a lot. When I did two hours a night, I would, I had to rely on my producers a lot because doing a two hour live show, as you know, is a lot of work. Right. And so I'm being produced right now. And so after this, you know, I have my, my pre show meeting, but I've already had the pre show meeting just before you. And then so just before the show I'm going over and then my, I do my five o' clock show live on YouTube and then after that I am at a, I have a sold out show here at city winery with D.L. hughley. And then. Yeah, and then I jump on a plane and go back to New York and then next week I'm in DC for the State of the Union. So you know, you know how it is.
- [20:59]
A
Good. Well, anytime you need me and I know you always reach out, I'm happy to help you out in any way that I can. I'm always here for you.
- [21:08]
B
Oh.
- [21:08]
A
Just wanted you to know that you are supported. We have you.
- [21:12]
B
Thank you, thank you. I really appreciate it and I thank you. I thank you for that support. Every time I call Jim, he's like, before I can hit send, he's like, yep, I'm there. And same for me, I've been a little bit late. I have been a bad fellow. No, no list. Because I just didn't, I didn't get to you fast enough. That, that I feel that.
- [21:30]
A
And as I said earlier, what I was going through when I lost my press pass pales in comparison to getting arrested. But I was losing my mind during that entire two week period. You know, there's just a lot.
- [21:40]
B
You had your phone. I don't have my phone. So people are texting me and I don't, you know, I haven't like I have to. They're like, I texted you. I'm like, I didn't see it. I don't have a phone. You know, so well.
- [21:49]
A
And I had Jeff Zucker saying, jim, I need to, I need to tell you something.
- [21:52]
B
Right.
- [21:52]
A
Do not this up. That was what was telling him. So I did have that added pressure of Jeff Zucker said, do not this up.
- [22:00]
B
I heard that from a lot of people like Jeff Zucker and a lot, a lot of people who have a lot of experience in this because they're like, just don't it up. And basically they're just like, just shut the upper.
- [22:14]
A
Yes.
- [22:14]
B
Yeah.
- [22:15]
A
Well, Don, I know you're not Going to it up. You're going to be great. But thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. I won't hold you up anymore, but best of luck. Anything I can.
- [22:23]
B
I'm proud to be your friend and I'm so proud of what you're doing as an independent journalist and everybody make sure you support Jim, make sure you are subscribed and you're a member and all of the platforms. Okay? So thank you, sir.
- [22:32]
A
Good to see you. Good to see you. All right, Take care, Don.
- [22:35]
B
All right.
- [22:35]
A
God bless. That's my friend, Don Lemon. And you know, this, this is what it's all about in, in this new world of independent media, you know, we, we just have to support one another. There's, you know, this cable news rivalry, you know, sniping and knifing people in the back and all that bullshit. That all has to go out the window. Ladies and gentlemen, right now. The stakes are too high. There's too much going on. You have the President arresting journalists. You have the president trying to shut down Stephen Colbert. You have them rounding up migrants across this country, little babies and children. I'm going to be talking about that in just a little bit with Senator Chris Van Hollen from Maryland. But I got to do sort of things in reverse during this hour in that, you know, usually I save the moments of levity for a little bit later on in the show. I want to do a little bit of that now in that we have to talk about this crazy video of RFK Jr are our so called Secretary of Health and human services. That RFK Jr. He of the Kennedy family, although they just want nothing to do with him anymore. Not that he. He's with Kid Rock. This is our, this is real video. RFK Jr. And Kid Rock working out together shirtless. They're in some. I don't know if they're at his. The Kid Rock ranch. I don't know what this is. They're in some sort of workout space and they're. There's Kid Rock working out. These are all images that I can't unsee now. And I feel bad showing this to the American people. But this video, if you have not seen it, it gets worse and worse. And you've heard these stories about RFK Jr. Working out in his jeans. Yes, there's RFK Jr. And Kid Rock and a sauna working out together. Kind of reminds me of some of those awkward scenes from the movie Challengers. But anyway. And there's RFK Jr getting into a plunge bath, a cold plunge bath in his jeans. Ladies and gentlemen, and I don't know, but RFK Jr must go through a lot of genes. He works out in them. He apparently bathes in them. And as the Chiron says, yes, this is an official government video. There they are playing pickleball and so on, having a good time on the taxpayer dime. But there's the. The person who's responsible for public health in this country. On that note, let's bring in our friend Dr. Rob Davidson of Paging America. There's Dr. Rob right there. Doc, it's great to see you. I'm sure you saw this RFK Jr business. You can't hear me? Nope. You can't. How about now? Rob, can you hear me now? We've experienced this before. He may have to jump out.
- [25:16]
C
I'm not getting any audio from you.
- [25:19]
A
Okay, hang on. Jump back out. Jump back in. We'll. We'll. We'll get you back in just a second here. But let's. Let's show that video one more time. And I want to just go over this one more time because this, you know, and. And this is part of RFK junior's thing about drinking whole milk and eating real food and want you to be healthy and all this other stuff. And, you know, my thing. My thing about RFK Jr. Is, is that he's just not a public health expert. He should not be in this position to begin with. And this is just the epitome of that. Dr. Rob Davidson, can you hear me now?
- [26:01]
C
I got you, Jim. Yeah, thanks.
- [26:03]
A
Okay.
- [26:03]
C
I heard you and Don having a great conversation. Then I lost you.
- [26:06]
A
But. Yeah, I know. It's okay. Sometimes it's a. It's a weird little funny thing that happens. Yeah, I guess you saw this. Creepy, strange. There's Kid Rock giving the middle finger, and then RFK Jr getting in a cold plunge in his jeans, which, I mean, honestly, I'd hate to be the person who got in that bath after him. It probably had to be sanitized. But, I mean, this is sort of the epitome of. Of why RFK Jr. Should not be in charge of the public's health in this country.
- [26:36]
C
I mean, it is a weird, nitpicky little thing to think. To look at him getting in an ice bath and jeans or playing pickleball in jeans. But it's weird, right? Right. He's not an expert. I mean, he's done such horrible damage, whether it's vaccines or the funding of research or just overall messaging or encouraging people to eat red meat, drink alcohol, all the above. But then just. Yeah, the weirdness of that, I don't get it.
- [27:02]
A
I don't get it.
- [27:03]
C
But good to be with you here on the right around the one year anniversary of him taking charge.
- [27:08]
A
Well, and just the other day he said something that was so incredibly bizarre and shocking that made just about everybody in America sick to their stomach when he admitted he said this on a podcast, that he had snorted cocaine off of a toilet seat. And you know, I guess this is so obvious. It's like Captain Obvious saying this stuff. But how in the world is he in charge of the Department of Health and Human Services? What it says to me is that Donald Trump does not give a rat's ass about public health. He didn't during COVID until it it was a, a threat to his political survival. That was when he started to care about it and then he it up anyway. But it just seems to me that this is why we have problems with containing measles in this country. This is why we have a real vaccine hesitancy problem in this country now. And that this may come back to haunt us, that the seeds that are being laid now could be 10, 15 years from now could really boomerang and hit us in the face badly. Yeah.
- [28:10]
C
I mean, the reason he's in charge, and we talk about it in our podcast on Paging America, it has nothing to do with health or his views on health. Some components of the Maha movement do have to do with people wanting to seek healthier options for food or additives or what have you. But Maha for RFK Jr. And for Trump is about coalition building. Right. It's about a political movement being pulled into MAGA to allow Donald Trump to win the presidency. And the reward for that is RFK Jr getting to do. And he said it. No other president would let me do some of the things that I've been doing. You know, he said that what we all have seen, obviously out loud, but it's I think just simple electoral math. In 2024. Now heading to the midterms, it's a little more tricky because, you know, the shine is a bit off now that he's done the crazy and awful things that he's done. But Maha is still a coalition within a political movement that they're trying to manage. And RFK is ahead of that.
- [29:10]
A
Yeah, I mean, it seems to me that, I mean, it's not just me, but I mean, they are putting some real unsavory characters, some real questionable characters in some pretty important roles. And, you know, these are all folks who are kind of cut from the same cloth from a standpoint that they just sort of believe in conspiracy theories more than they do science. And I just, you know, there's a subscriber right now. Can we ever get back the eroding trust that, that we are all experiencing right now because of the, these anti vaxxers? And I don't, I think the answer to that is we don't know the is we don't know the answer to that. Just because you put somebody four years from now who is a, who is pro vaccine doesn't mean that people are going to start getting vaccines again.
- [29:58]
C
Yeah, I mean it's going to be generational. Right. We're talking about a decades long project to rebuild the trust. But, but I think, you know, lessons learned from COVID lessons learned from, from his ascendancy and sort of this embrace of, of kind of anti science and conspiracies is that whatever we start to build in four years, hopefully three, four years has to be sort of radically transparent. And like communications, I think Biden learned this with the accomplishments they had, Obama even, you know, when they, when they enacted policies that are of benefit to people. That isn't enough. Right? Just doing the work isn't enough. Saying the thing, it's how you communicate it and it's doing it in all the channels now that are available to people. It's what they're doing, it's what they've been doing. It's what people see through Facebook and Instagram all the time. That's how they've, they've penetrated this world. So well, before he took charge and now he's just take it to officialdom.
- [31:00]
A
And I gotta ask you about this, this whole milk thing because you know, when I was a kid we had whole milk in the refrigerator and you would drink it and so on. But then over time health experts said, you know, you really can get the same benefits from milk if you drink milk that is not as fatty. 2% milk, which is still pretty fatty, or even skim milk and you can get some of the same health benefits. What is it seems to me it's very weird that they're pushing whole milk. It's like they couldn't push raw milk because people get.
- [31:31]
B
Yeah, right.
- [31:33]
A
And so they're pushing whole milk instead. But it's very fatty. Do we really want, when we have this obesity problem in this country and people are, are signing up for all these prescription medicines to deal with obesity that they wanted people, that we want people to drink whole milk doesn't seem like good public health policy.
- [31:50]
C
It doesn't. And it's, it's this weird. I, I guess he has a weird fixation on it, on, on the full fat milk and how that, I mean, for, for, for, for little ones. Yes. Right. You know, as, as they're developing, as they're growing. But as adults, you know, our older kids, it doesn't make sense. And it doesn't make sense to have Mike Tyson on the super bowl ad talking about his challenges with obesity and how it made him feel and why he chose healthy foods, and then in the next breath, promoting saturated fats, red meats that contribute to obesity, and also heart disease and other diseases. Like everything else he's done, it doesn't make sense. And it has to be either some weird corner of his brain that the worm is controlling or possibly of some, some part of the coalition that he's trying to keep together to keep the Maha movement strong.
- [32:42]
A
Yeah, I mean, I, you know, the thing about getting in the cold plunge with the jeans, I mean, it is kind of like he, he is the grossest secretary in the cabinet. I think that that is pretty clear. Like, I just don't. Why are we doing this in, in front of, in front of the American people? But when you do, I, I wonder, Dr. Rob, if you hear from folks from time to time who say, well, I do like what they're doing about maybe we should have so many additives and foods or maybe we should have less processed foods and that sort of thing. I don't have a problem with that. That's fine. But it doesn't replace vaccines. You know, it's sort of like the kooky ideas that he has about preventing measles, you know, that if you just use the right, you know, vitamins, and that's where, you know, sure, fewer additives, healthier foods. Why not?
- [33:32]
C
Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's part of the problem. Right? There's a little nugget of sort of reasonableness in what they're talking about. And then to be a part of the movement, though, you have to kind of take it all in. He made some ridiculous comment about how he was anti mercury and fish, and no one claimed he was anti fish back in the day. And yet he's part of an administration that's promoting policies to burn more coal, to add mercury to the environment, which is how we get mercury in fish. Right. We don't get mercury through vaccines. Like they at one time and honestly continue to sort of promote that potential idea. We get it from the environment.
- [34:11]
A
Right.
- [34:12]
C
And we put it into the environment, burning coal. But that's part of the problem. They'll say something semi reasonable, right? Like, sure, would it be good to have less additives? Absolutely. Right. Are eating whole foods? Is that a better idea? Absolutely. But it doesn't substitute taking, you know, taking a trillion dollars out of Medicaid for tax cuts for billionaires. It doesn't substitute the over million people who lost insurance because of the loss of ACA subsidies. It doesn't substitute all the mercury they're putting into the environment by burning more coal instead of switching to renewables as they had done in the previous administration. And so like, that's the challenge, right. Accepting some of those good ideas. The ama, I feel, fell prey to this when they came out and said, yes, we want to work with this administration on healthier foods. And yet, you know, they gave money to a bunch of members of Congress who voted for the trillion dollars in Medicaid cuts. It's hard to understand, you know, how to, how to support anything they're doing when the totality is so damaging.
- [35:12]
A
Right. Never bend the knee to somebody who gets in a cold plunge. And blue jeans. That should just be a good rule of thumb.
- [35:18]
C
There you go.
- [35:20]
A
Dr. Rob Davison, great to see as always. Let's keep doing this. Always love it when you come on. Really appreciate it.
- [35:25]
C
All right, thanks, Tim.
- [35:26]
A
All right, thank you. I do want to switch gears and talk about something that, you know, that I talked about on the show yesterday. I want to talk about it again today. And it has to do with the case of two month old Juan. As I talked to you about on the show yesterday, he was in detention with his mother at the notorious Dilly detention facility in South Texas. He had respiratory distress. He was taken to the hospital, brought back to Dilly. This is my understanding in terms of the chain of events. And then was deported out of the country with his family. This is a two month old child who was going through respiratory distress and had to be taken to the hospital because of it. But this is a cautionary tale because it raises this issue of these detention facilities that they want to build all around the country. Doesn't matter if you live in a red state or a blue state, you can live in a stay with all Democrats, governors, senators, congressmen, you name it. The Department of Homeland Security is going to try to put one of these things in your neighborhood. They're probably trying to purchase a warehouse in your community as we speak to make this happen. Somebody who's been trying to Fight against. This is Senator Chris Van Hollen of Maryland. Senator Van Hollen, great to see you.
- [36:38]
D
As always, Jim, it's good to be with you. And thanks for shining a spotlight on all of these outrages, including the two month year old. I also put that out on social media. I think you and I got the same response from the Department of Homeland Security, like, well, his parents wanted him to be there, like, you shouldn't have babies in prison, period.
- [37:00]
A
That's it. Why are we in the business of jailing children and babies? And I, and we should just jump right to this because you're right, they responded to you in the way that they responded to me. And we could put this tweet up on screen and dissect it. I mean, I wrote, you know, you're jailing children. This is not family separation. It's family devastation. I believe that. But the Department of Homeland Security said the mother chose to take her child into custody with her. The mother chose to enter and remain in the country illegally. The mother chose not to take 2,600 and a free flight home. Senator, what do you think of that? I mean, when they're saying the mother chose to enter, remain in the country illegally, I guess they're saying that's all she did wrong. And for that we put you and your two month old in prison.
- [37:43]
D
Well, that's exactly right. And this is the big lie that Donald Trump and this administration have been telling the American people for a while now, which is that they're going after the so called worst of the worst when what they're really doing is sweeping up all sorts of people who have deep roots in our communities, who pose no threat to public safety whatsoever in the overwhelming number of cases. And they're looking, as you pointed out, for more and more places to warehouse these people, including in our state of Maryland, where we've been fighting against this. We have some important success stories to tell. Just last night in Baltimore county, the council passed unanimously legislation prohibiting these private prisons. In Howard county, again unanimously, the council passed that very quickly. But then in Washington county, despite, you know, hundreds of people joining some of us on very cold days to protest the possibility of a detention center there, they were successful ice at purchasing a facility that could take up to 1500 people. And so they're, as we speak, they're purchasing these facilities to warehouse people all over the country. So don't believe what they're saying. Watch what they're doing.
- [39:14]
A
Exactly. And it seems to me, even if you live in a very blue state like Maryland, there's not a whole lot that you can do in some of these instances other than protest and raise hell. And I think what you're saying is absolutely right in that. I mean, this is a concerted effort to terrorize Latino people. It seems to me in this country, and it is almost, it reminds me of the family separation policy to some extent from the first administration, that the policy is intended to be a deterrent, that if you make it so nightmarish in this country that people will just self deport. But in the case of the lady with the two month old, people have a right to due process. People come to this country with legitimate asylum claims. That's what America, I thought was supposed to be all about. What do you think?
- [39:58]
D
Well, that's right. Look, this is an administration that is, you know, attacking our Constitution daily. I mean, we've seen their attacks on free speech, we've seen their illegal impoundment of government funds, and we're seeing every day they're trampling on people's due process rights. I mean, you know, one of the biggest cases really happened a big, a little over a year ago right here in Maryland where they snatched Kilmar Abrego Garcia right off the streets. They admitted in court that it was, quote, a mistake, Right. But then they sent him to the Gulag in El Salvador and planned to have him rot there forever. Then we had the public uproar. We finally got a 9 to 0 decision from the Supreme Court, pretty rare these days. And so they were sort of forced to bring him back, even though they swore they never would. But they're still continuing a vindictive political prosecution and persecution against him. But that was just a textbook case of depriving him of his due process rights. I mean, the courts had specifically said you can't send them to El Salvador. And so they send him to El Salvador. But there's so many other cases, Jim, as you know, where this administration is just ignoring people's due process rates and it's hard for the courts to keep up. I mean, the federal district courts, federal district courts overall have been upholding the rule of law, but they're swamped. And then the administration just, you know, they lie all the time. They lie, lie, lie.
- [41:35]
A
And what do you think is the correct response in the Senate? I know that you've held up funding for dhs. I mean, the Republicans control the House and the Senate and the White House. They, they could propose things like, well, we'll regulate masks and not have masks. And they could try to extend the olive branch and get something passed if they were to do those things. But they're not doing those things. What's the correct approach in your view? Is it, is it to hold firm here and try to hold out and see if you can get something out of them? Because it seems to me there's so much DHS funding in the so called big beautiful bill anyway that they can do a lot of this stuff. It's, it's been approved. But it seems to me you do have some leverage to, to drive a hard bargain to some extent. What, what's the, what's the right approach, do you think? So?
- [42:19]
D
Look, my, my view is not one more penny for this lawless operation. If they're willing to make some meaningful changes, then obviously we're open to talking with them. But they don't really appear to be doing that. I mean, so for example, one of the things we want is to make sure you have an independent investigation of wrongdoing.
- [42:42]
B
Right.
- [42:43]
D
How can we trust the federal governor, DHS to conduct an independent investigation, honest investigation of the killing of Alex Preddy or Renee Good when they called them domestic terrorists and yet they've refused to share the information, allow Minnesotan authorities to participate. We want to make sure that when they go after people, it's on an individual basis. They have a probable cause to believe that particular individual has committed wrongdoing rather than these sweeps. And we think they should be held to the same use of force standards as police in our communities. So these are some pretty basic requests. And if they're not going to honor them, you're absolutely right. In their so called big beautiful bill, which we should remind people, they gave permanent tax cuts to billionaires, they cut health care and Medicaid funds, they cut through nutrition programs. But in that bill, you're right, they funded ICE at $70 billion. That's seven times its annual appropriations. But Jim, they're asking for another 10 billion. They want another 10 billion this year.
- [43:52]
A
70 billion is not enough.
- [43:54]
D
70 million is not enough. And so my view is no. If you're not going to make meaningful changes, yes, you have money, but you're not getting another 10 billion. And by the way, we also need to shut down the conduits that they're using from other agencies for money for these facilities. So for example, the Navy, if you look at their budget, they have transfer authority that they've been using in some of these cases for facilities. So you know, wow, ultimately we're gonna have to claw this stuff back. In my view, when we when we're in a position to do it with a majority. But for now, you know, I. I can't vote for, you know, 10 billion more without any sort of significant, meaningful changes. I'm not. I don't like the idea anyway.
- [44:41]
A
Yeah.
- [44:42]
D
Because they don't need it. But my view is. So. I don't think they're serious anyway. I think they're just talking.
- [44:52]
A
And I'm curious what your thoughts are on the future of ice if it should just be scrapped, go back to the days of the ins. I mean, you're just gonna. Does something else need to be created? And I guess the other question jumping off of what you were saying is, what does this country look like if we get to a point where we have one of these detention facilities in every state in the nation? Or just about every state in the nation, or multiple detention facilities in every state in the nation? I mean, it seems to me that's a very different place than the country I grew up in.
- [45:27]
D
It is. Look, with respect to ice, I think we need to strip it down to the floorboards, and it needs fundamental reform and reining in. Obviously, there's a function there with respect to, you know, people who are here. If they've committed violent offenses or crimes, we need some entity to go out and, you know, apply the law.
- [45:54]
A
So.
- [45:55]
D
But. But the vision that we're seeing coming out of this White House is this terribly dystopian vision. And, you know, people like Steve Miller really have this view of America as sort of this, you know, white nationalist place.
- [46:15]
B
Right.
- [46:15]
D
I mean, if you listen to the way he talks and people around him talking about, you know, protecting the heritage of this country, they're not talking about the heritage of the Constitution. Right, right. That's really the true heritage of our country. The Constitution, the Bill of Rights, free speech. These are things that you can come from all over the world. And if you sign up to believe in these principles and values, you're an American. That's not Steve Miller's vision of what it means to be American. He has this blood and soil approach, which is very scary. And really, Secretary Rubio, when he was at the Munich conference, he said it in prettier language, but he said the same thing that Vice President Vance said. He said it with a little more sort of sugar coating. And I think a lot of the people who apparently got a standing ovation, I think a lot of people, when they actually listened more carefully to what he said, realized he was just as bad as all of them because he's Throwing out the idea of an America and American foreign policy, however imperfect we are. And we are imperfect, but he's throwing out the idea of one based on these sort of fundamental human rights and principles in favor of one, you know, based on what Stephen Miller's conception of, you know, the. The heritage. So it's a very dangerous place. And as you say, it's simply un American.
- [47:52]
A
Yeah. And it's not who. It's not who we are. And who elected Stephen Miller? I mean, the last time I checked, he wasn't elected. But maybe it's. I don't know, what's your sense of the president and his. I mean, when, when Joe Biden was in the White House, people would talk about, you know, if he got a word wrong, you know, that there, there was this, you know, we had to all go into a panic, a state of panic of Joe Biden said something wrong. Donald Trump does this all the time. And, and it seems to me Stephen Miller is very much in charge of over. That's my observation.
- [48:24]
D
I think you're. No, I think you're absolutely right. I think Stephen Miller is pretty much in charge of domestic policy. Certainly has this portfolio when it comes to immigration and trampling over people's rights. And then they're extending these same ideas into our foreign policy, which undermines our position around the world. But you're right, Donald Trump, you know, he's on social media an awful lot, obviously, but he. He seems to have surrendered a lot of the power he has to, to people like Stephen Miller. And, you know, let's not, you know, Donald Trump also. We know, we know what he stands for ultimately. Right. I mean, you know, we saw what he did when he. When he reposted that horrible racist, you know, video the other day. So, I mean, we also know who Donald Trump is, and it's. It's a really. It's a really dangerous moment for our democracy. And I will say that what gives me hope, and probably you hope, too, I know, was, are the people in Minneapolis literally blowing the whistle on this wrongdoing? And, you know, we all need to be whistleblowers. That's our job.
- [49:44]
A
No question. Well, Senator Van Hollen, I really appreciate your time. Thanks for coming by. And we'll. We'll stay on top of this detention facility that they want to build up by Hagerstown. I just can't believe that something like that would be built in the state of Maryland. But it's just. It just seems like they're not giving people a choice. And, you Know, whatever happened to states rights? I don't know. I mean it seems to me that conservatives used to believe in that, but I guess not anymore. Yeah.
- [50:10]
D
In the Washington County's case, you had the Washington County Board of Commissioners which decided to, they didn't. Okay. Because it was a private purchase, but they essentially said it was okay with them. So look, we've got a lot of work to do in Maryland and all over the country. You know that. So it's good to be with you. And, and, and thank you for raising the alarm on this. And thank you and, and this and the state of our democracy. We, we all got to hang in there and fight back.
- [50:44]
A
No question about it. Well, thanks, Senator Van Hahn. Really appreciate the time. Hope we can do it again sometime soon.
- [50:49]
D
Will do. Thanks a lot.
- [50:51]
A
Thanks, Senator. And he's, he's right. I mean, and it is a constant theme on this show is that, you know, we are all in this together and we're going to have to fight this thing. And you just heard from the senator right there that, you know, you can come from the bluest state in America, they can put one of these detention camps in a community near you. And that little Juan Nicholas is just the beginning, this is just the beginning of Donald Trump warehousing Latino babies and children in this country. And for folks who think that this sounds hysterical or hyperbolic, you're, you're not paying attention. I mean, you can just look at the tweet that the DHS put out there responding to me. You know, they, they like to say over there that, oh Jim, he's no, no longer at CNN anymore. You know, good riddance. But yet they have time to respond to, to my sorry ass about this. But I asked the question, why is a two month old baby detained by ice? Are we going to have some standards of decency as a country? Do the people in power hate Latinos that much? The answer to the final question is yes. Stephen Miller. And I should just address this to Stephen Miller. He and I have tangled before. It goes back nine years now when we tangled in the briefing room over the Statue of Liberty. He has powers now that that young former Hill staffers could dream of. He basically remote controls the President of the United States. He is basically in charge over at the White House right now. He and Marco Rubio are running the show. J.D. vance is an afterthought, I think inside the administration. He's basically seen as not viable for the White House and is kind of just a, an annoyance from time to time. But the Heavy hitters behind the scenes are Stephen Miller and Marco Rubio. Marco Rubio, as the Senator said, went overseas, spoke at the Munich Security Conference and tried to put lipstick on the pig. Tried to, to let the allies know that America's kind of there in a pinch, but we're also kind of with the dictators. That was, that was basically the message from Marco, Rupert, so try to sort that out, world. But, but as for Stephen Miller, I mean, I do ask the question, why do you hate Hispanic people so much? Why do you hate Latino people so much? What happened to you? What was it that happened to you that makes you hate these little children so much? Little Liam, little Juan, a two month old baby that apparently had respiratory distress, had to be taken to the hospital, gets out of the hospital, they deport him. A two month old baby. And it just raises the question, who are we as a country? This is supposed to be the United States. I've talked about this many times. I'll talk about it again. My dad came to this country from Cuba, 1962, three weeks before the Cuban Missile Crisis, showed up in Miami, ended up in Virginia, met my mom, they had me. Here I am. When my dad came to this country as a Cuban refugee, there weren't people locking up migrants and putting them in detention camps. And that was the 1960s, ladies and gentlemen. You know, my dad tells me the story about the Presbyterian Church in Vienna, Virginia, that gave my family, my dad and my grandmother, coats and sweaters so they could be warm during their first D.C. winter. They weren't locking them up and trying to deport them before they even have a chance to say why they're here, why they fled to this country, why they came to America, which is supposed to be the greatest country on earth. Who are we as a country when we are locking up 2 month olds? Why are we jailing babies? A baby, Stephen Miller is a father, has children. I mean, can he look into his children's eyes and say that he would be okay with, with somebody doing that to his own children? I mean, of course not. Nobody would. And to me, this is a moment to search our soul as a country. Who are we going to be as a country? I mean, are we going to become Donald Trump's America? I mean, we're fighting like hell to make sure that that doesn't happen. But if they can put one of these detention facilities in Maryland, one of the bluest states in the country, make no mistake, they can put one of these detention facilities in a neighborhood near you. And I was writing the substack today about this. I put this online because I wanted to talk about the social media people coming after me. And I want to read you something that that was said by. This was apparently the, the director of ICE said this last year, Todd Lyons, the director of ice, said he wanted to see a system in this country that operates like Amazon prime, but for human beings. Literally said this, this is in the Guardian, April of last year. He said he wanted to see a deportation process that was like a business quote, like prime, but with human beings. My God. People are not packages. Human beings are not items that we order over Amazon Prime. But it seems to me what has happened in this country is that we have dehumanized Latino people in this country, we've dehumanized immigrants in this country to the point where it is somehow okay for the director of ICE to speak about other human beings in that fashion. And it seems what I see happening in America right now is we have a policy, a national policy of racial profiling and ethnic cleansing. Look at what the definition of ethnic cleansing is. It is basically to take elements of the population that are not like the majority of the population and eliminate them. And that is what is happening right now. They are rounding up anybody with brown skin, anybody who speaks Spanish, anybody who looks Hispanic, and they're putting them in these detention facilities. You could be non violent, as in the case of the mother of two month old Juan. The Department of Homeland Security said she came into this country illegally. She had a choice. Are we going to have the conversation, Are we going to talk about the fact that the reason why people like Juan's mother come to this country is because there are jobs in this country that people here don't want to do. There are jobs in this country that a lot of folks don't want to do. And these migrants come into this country and they do those jobs. And a lot of businesses benefit from that. A lot of businesses benefit, including Donald Trump's businesses. He has benefited from that over the years. He has employed undocumented people over the years. It's been established over and over again. Total rank hypocrisy. And so it seems to me we, we're going to have to sort this out as a country because you can't have business on one end, encouraging people to come into this country illegally because there are jobs that Americans don't want to do. And then Stephen Miller and his ghouls and his sadistic ghouls are grabbing brown skinned people and Latino people and people who speak Spanish and putting them in. In concentration camps and gulags. We cannot become that country. We need to sort out which one is it. And it seems to me that we're going to be the country that continues to be a place where there are folks who come to this country because there are jobs that Americans don't want to do. And America has been just fine because of that. But America won't be fine if these detention facilities like the one in Dilley, these are no places for children. They are not suitable for little kids and babies. If these facilities can come to a neighborhood near you, it's not who we are. It's not America. I want to thank Don Lemon for joining me today. I want to thank Dr. Rob Davidson and Senator Chris Van Hollen of Maryland. Remember to support independent media. It does matter. It does support. The work that we do here on the show keeps the lights on, keeps the cameras rolling. And I think it makes a difference. I think it makes a big difference. And if we weren't doing it, would we be talking. Would our. Would our corporate media people be talking about this? I don't think so. And so we need to be there for one another in this. In this hour. And as Chris Van Hollen was describing it earlier, a dangerous moment. We are at a dangerous moment in this country, ladies and gentlemen. So hang in there until next time. Still reporting from Washington, I'm Jim Acosta. I'll see you next time.