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- [00:01]
Jim Acosta
Welcome, everybody, to the Jim Acosta Show. Thank you for joining me today. This is an important show. So I, you know, I really want you to pay attention to the guest who is joining me today. It's Jess Michaels. She is a survivor of Jeffrey Epstein. And I wanted to talk to Jess because I, I felt as though, you know, lost in the coverage and a lot of the coverage of Donald Trump and his spiraling over the Epstein files and so on is what has happened to the survivors. I mean, as, as we all know, and I've been talking about this every day, it's another day that ends in Y and Epstein gate. He's still dodging questions, still looking like a man with something to hide as it relates to Jeffrey Epstein. He's still not released the Epstein files as he and his people promised. We still don't know if he's going to pardon Ghislaine Maxwell, a pedophile just like Jeffrey Epstein, who was convicted of sex trafficking. But I don't want to do too much of a wind up here because I want to get right to Jess. Jess, thank you so much for joining me. I appreciate it so much. And you know, I guess first of all, you know, where should we start? Because, I mean, we saw that the family of Virginia Giuffre, who committed suicide tragically back in April, came out and spoke to the media saying that, you know, they can't believe that Donald Trump would even contemplate pardoning Ghislaine Maxwell. But your story is an important one because it tells us that the timeline that a lot of people think is the timeline for Jeffrey Epstein is not really the timeline. I mean, people think this started in the early 2000s. Your case goes all the way back to in the early 90s. And so this, this went on for a very long time.
- [01:37]
Jess Michaels
Yes, thank you. Firstly, thank you so much for having me.
- [01:40]
Harry Dunn
Yeah.
- [01:40]
Jess Michaels
Yes. And it's something that I actually put in, in my bio. I'm a 1991 Jeffrey Epstein Survivor and I say that because I want people to think twice about how long this has actually been going on. Shockingly, no one comments on, just gets missed. But I am not, and I'm not even the earliest survivor. Wow. I'm just the earliest publicly known survivor. So. So I will say that. And the big question that I get across social media and it's, and it's a fair question to ask because I think it's a great, it's a great way to educate people and start to understand why things happen. Why, why am I speaking up now, like, why am I talking about this now? Firstly, I'm not just talking about it now. If you go back to my old social media, I was really trying to express myself as an advocate first during the Ghislaine Maxwell trial, and then I was really struggling then. And then about six months later, I talked about it and I brought it up, but then I really struggled to continue because I wasn't ready. And I almost took all of those videos down because I. Now they feel cringy. I was like, oh, I was really struggling. But I leave them up because they're a reminder of how far I've come in my ability to heal that part of the brain that gets damaged when you can't speak about a trauma like this. So one of the reasons I'm speaking about this is because of it. For me, it's an achievement in how much I've healed, that I can. That I can sit here and I can talk with you about this. The other reason I'm speaking up right now is that as I went through my healing process and I. I really started to understand the degree of damage done to me physically, emotionally, intellectually, how much it destroyed my quality of life for 30 years. I didn't want that to happen to anybody else. And so. And because survivors can struggle to get to that level of healing with their words, being able to express that emotional experience, that physical experience, and us being unable to connect that, oh, wait, sexual assault is an injury first before it's a crime. Like, there's an injury happening, an invisible injury. Just because you can't see the blood doesn't mean there's not an injury happening. In that moment when someone shares with you that that's what happened. So that was really important to me. But, Jim, this is. This is the. This is the fascinating thing that I think people don't realize. One of the reasons PTSD thrives. And I don't know if you saw my. My Katie Couric interview where I really prefer post traumatic stress injury, but because everybody understands the word PTSD and that's what all the research is in, I'm going to say that word uncomfortably, but just know I'm talking about the injury after a traumatic event, not that there's something wrong with me.
- [04:43]
Jim Acosta
Right, Right.
- [04:45]
Jess Michaels
Sexual assault survivors experience higher rates of post traumatic stress disorder than any other tragedy.
- [04:54]
Jim Acosta
Wow.
- [04:54]
Jess Michaels
And that is across. We're talking about natural. Natural disasters. We're talking. We're talking about all. Any type of trauma that you can imagine. Sexual harm, that broken barrier is. Creates more Post traumatic stress disorder than any other injury, not because of the event. And that's what people don't understand. Trauma is not just the event. It's the absence of an empathetic witness.
- [05:31]
Jim Acosta
Wow.
- [05:32]
Jess Michaels
That's Peter Levine. He's a trauma researcher.
- [05:35]
Jim Acosta
Wow.
- [05:36]
Jess Michaels
So higher rates. That's across many studies. But where I found another study that was really fascinating because they went deep. It was actually the pentacles on Inspector General's managerial fiscal report of 2020. They. They share in this managerial report that women who are sexually assaulted in the military experience 45% post traumatic stress disorder. Men who experience sexual assault in the military experience 68%. 68% experience post traumatic stress disorder. Combat veterans, 38.
- [06:10]
Jim Acosta
Wow.
- [06:10]
Jess Michaels
So it is. Even among combat veterans, it is higher for sexual assault survivors.
- [06:17]
Jim Acosta
That. That's. That's remarkable. And I don't think people understand that.
- [06:21]
Jess Michaels
No, they don't. And they don't understand because they don't understand that. The other thing that happens in my comments is proof. We need proof. We need evidence. We need. You know you're lying. This. You don't need proof, Jim, for me to tell you I was raped. For you to sit there and be an empathetic witness and hear me. You don't need proof. You don't need details for me to tell you I was harmed. You can just believe someone when they're telling you they're harmed. Then we can worry about getting to justice. That was also another reason why I'm speaking now. And I started to learn what PTSD did to my body and the prevalence among sexual assault survivors.
- [06:57]
Jim Acosta
Well, and the other thing, Jess, that is important in all of this is that there are aspects of your case, what happened to you, the injury, the trauma that was inflicted upon you, and what took place with the other survivors and victims of Jeffrey Epstein. There's a. There's a bit of a through line. It's a different kind of through line. Ghislaine Maxwell did not recruit you? No, there was somebody else, but. But it does show that there's some consistency in many of these cases. Can you tell us about that?
- [07:30]
Jess Michaels
Yes. I was recruited by my roommate, who was a fellow professional dancer. And when I. When I came back from a contract, she had already been working for him for about six months. What I know about her is that she can. I found out through a mutual friend that she continued working for him at the very, like, potentially end of her career with him was 1998. But we don't. We don't know because we didn't hear from her again, like after. We don't know what she did after that. We don't know. No one has connected those dots yet. But that's eight years. Eight years of doing that. And, and she'd only been working for him for six months when she was already recruiting. And I found out from that mutual friend that was a roommate of hers afterwards that she had tried to recruit that girl, too. So there was a pattern of behavior that started way before Ghislaine Maxwell came along.
- [08:25]
Jim Acosta
And, and it's almost as though he had a system.
- [08:30]
Jess Michaels
There was a system. There was a system. And yeah, there was a system. It was purposeful to use young women to make someone feel safe. When people talk about post traumatic stress disorder, what they don't understand that happens in the body is a lack of safety. One of the easiest ways to manipulate someone is to show safety. Look, I'm a fellow female and I'm a safe person. And look at how lucky you're going to be to be in this environment with this very wealthy person. Luxury and money are used as tools to get someone to do something that you want them to do.
- [09:16]
Jim Acosta
Yes.
- [09:16]
Jess Michaels
And it was never safe for them to leave. I didn't go back. I want to also clarify. I never met Ghislaine Maxwell. I, I didn't. I didn't meet any of the powerful men except Jeffrey Epstein. But that pattern of behavior started long before what we heard about in 2006. And Maria Farmer was the first one to be a whistleblower in 1996. She did the right thing. She actually called the authorities and no one listened to her.
- [09:48]
Jim Acosta
And that, and that is also another thing through line in all of this is that it happened to you, it happened to so many other people. People didn't want to listen. People didn't want to act on these stories. People didn't want to seek justice. And that is a prevalent problem with this crime. Authorities don't want to deal with it. They, they almost want to stay away from it.
- [10:10]
Jess Michaels
Yeah, there's a really great opinion. There are a couple of really great phrases. There's. There's a difference between institutional courage or institutional betrayal. Institutional compliance. I call it institutional cowardice. That's what we're dealing with. We're dealing with institutional cowardice that doesn't want to deal with the lack of safety in their workplace, in their college, in their high school. It takes a lot for someone to say no. We actually choose to be a safe place for young people and children.
- [10:43]
Jim Acosta
And we're seeing that institutional Cowardice now in that Trump and his people, they promised to release the Epstein files, and obviously they were doing this for political purposes when they were making these promises to release the Epstein files. And now we're seeing lawmakers who supported this idea and so on just now. Their lips are sealed. They've zipped their lips. They're not clamoring for this anymore, and it is cowardice. And I guess, what are your thoughts on all of this? You know, this. This issue of releasing the Epstein files and, you know, the. This question of pardoning Ghislaine Maxwell and so on.
- [11:21]
Jess Michaels
I think what we're seeing here is, on a national level, an example of what happens every single day in. In every town, in every state in our country, that. That this issue is not considered an injury. There's not any responsibility taken for this issue. There is negligence on every level. And we're seeing it like it's. It's no longer us. Survivors are. Are just being dramatic.
- [11:55]
Harry Dunn
We're.
- [11:56]
Jess Michaels
No, it's actually happening right now. So it's not, you know, Epstein survivors are devastated where. Feels like a slap in the face to the women that came forward so bravely so many times, so many times since 1996. But it's. It's proof that it was never us that was the problem.
- [12:17]
Jim Acosta
Right. And I guess when you hear Trump, you know, the other day saying that the reason why he severed ties with Jeffrey Epstein is because Jeffrey Epstein, he says, stole an employee from his spa at Mar a Lago. And he. And he says, yes, I think that that's Virginia Giuffre. Let's play a little bit of that clip. And I just want to get you to react to that.
- [12:40]
Jess Michaels
Yeah.
- [12:43]
Jim Acosta
We took people that work for me, and I told them, don't do it anymore. And he did it. And I said, stay the hell out of here.
- [12:50]
Jess Michaels
Did one of those stolen, you know, persons that include Virginia Nephrey, I don't know.
- [12:59]
Jim Acosta
I think she worked at the spa. I think so. I think that was one of the people. Yeah, he. He stole her. When you hear that, that, that line, he stole her, what goes.
- [13:23]
Jess Michaels
It's an example of how humans are treated like property, which is the exact example of sex trafficking. Right. Like, it is. It is the very definition of sex trafficking, human trafficking, treating human beings like they are property and a thing, and it is devastating to the family. And I stand with that family 100%. I think Virginia Giuffre was a warrior. I think Maria Farmer is a warrior. The four women that testified against Ghislaine Maxwell. Although the women that spoke out for Julie K. Brown's article and then in the documentaries to try to get attention to this and at this stage, decades later, to still just call women property in 2025 is. It would be laughable if it weren't so painful.
- [14:30]
Harry Dunn
Yeah.
- [14:35]
Jim Acosta
And the sad and tragic thing in all of this, Jess, is, you know, I was watching that Netflix documentary on this and these young girls were treated like property. They, they were, they were treated like sex workers. They were sex workers. And sickens me because what, and this takes me back to what you're saying at the beginning of this. Just the, the injury upon injury upon injury that comes with this. It, it's, it's just brutal. There were girls recruiting girls and you know, you hear from these, these, these young ladies who eventually become women and are struggling with this, the trauma. And it just seems to me what. One of the, one of the really penetrating things in all of this is, and just horrible things in all of this is you're not getting justice if they're contemplating pardoning people and if the files are being suppressed and if the truth isn't getting out. I just, do you know what I mean? It just feels like justice denied.
- [15:46]
Jess Michaels
It's, it's justice denied. It's. This doesn't matter. Yeah, these, these, these people don't matter because do you know what's in those files in addition to all the evidence? Our victim statements.
- [15:59]
Jim Acosta
Yeah.
- [16:00]
Jess Michaels
And, and, and it's, it's saying, you know, when I think when he said, oh, this is boring stuff. Yeah, that was harsh.
- [16:11]
Jim Acosta
Or that it's a hoax. He called it a hoax.
- [16:13]
Jess Michaels
Yeah, that was, oh, because it's including our victim statements. The, the, and I, I don't, I don't know how it felt for the other survivors right there, but it took me a month to sit down and painstakingly write a three page victim statement. It was so hard to put pen to paper and actually come up, like, explain how, you know, at that time, 25 years of trauma felt and so to have it ignored and discussed as boring and then saying there's nothing to investigate here. It's another example of protecting the people that caused harm and ignoring the, the survivors. I mean, it's. Every time we're just here in multiple ways, survivors voices aren't being heard here. Thank you very much for having me. It's, it's awesome. I'm happy to be here. Thank you for listening to my voice. But, but, but they're not even interested in the, the, the American people hearing our stories and, and as far as I know from the people that I've talked to, and we're, we're okay. We're okay with, you know, you can re. You can redact the identifying information about me.
- [17:36]
Jim Acosta
Yeah. You want it out there?
- [17:38]
Jess Michaels
Yes. Yeah, I want it out there. And I want the victims to be kept as safe as the, as the perpetrators are being.
- [17:47]
Jim Acosta
Yeah, that, that is such a great point.
- [17:50]
Jess Michaels
Like that. There's no, there's, there's, there's, there's. All of the attention and protection is on the, the, the glamour of the Epstein world and the, the wealth and the, the power. And we have to really navigate that. And no one is taking the time to navigate or understand the depth of the injury that has happened because of this.
- [18:16]
Jim Acosta
That is such a great point, because you're absolutely right. More care is being taken to protecting these rich and powerful.
- [18:24]
Jess Michaels
Yes.
- [18:25]
Jim Acosta
People. And I use that term loosely because some of the people who obviously were involved in this were monsters. Like, to me, Ghislaine Maxwell is a monster. I don't, I don't, I don't. I, I don't even know how. It's a live question as to how he could even contemplate pardoning her at this point.
- [18:42]
Jess Michaels
Do you know? I, you know what I think is, is the hardest to watch as well, is the constant enabling of perpetrators. Like, you are not, you are not preventing this from happening in the future. You. This, this body, this institution, the government, FBI, the Florida Attorney General's office, like everybody ignored protocols, like the level of negligence for decades, completely ignores survivors experiences. It's. It's horrific.
- [19:22]
Jim Acosta
What, I mean, what will your response be if Donald Trump pardons Ghislaine Maxwell? I'll just put it like that.
- [19:35]
Jess Michaels
I think it will be a turning point in our country that we can never recover from. That's. I have, I am, I am, I am an optimistic human. I'm optimistic in life. I believe in, you know, good over evil. But when you even consider pardoning a convicted pedophile sex trafficker of minors over protecting survivors of sexual harm, you, you have stated to the world who you are. And I had mentioned even in Katie Curry's inter. Katie Couric's interview, there was, there's an opportunity where there could have been a lot of heroism here, where people, somebody could have done the right thing around this one issue. You know, I'm not going to agree. Like, there are a lot of wrong things going awful in this administration. I'm not going to talk about that, yeah, it could have done one good thing. When I, when I saw the binders, I even had it, I was like, well, the whole world is going to be on fire. But maybe this one that gave you hope when this, like maybe there's a moment here where they're actually going to do something for the first time. After decades of survivors sharing their stories over and over and over and over and over again. Tiny bit of hope to then have it squashed.
- [21:01]
Jim Acosta
Yeah, I mean what they're doing right now is just pulling the rug out from under the survivors and the victims families, people like Virginia Giuffre's family. I mean and they, they have made it very clear what they, what they believe in all of this. And you know, their, their sense of it right now is that this would just be the ultimate betrayal.
- [21:26]
Jess Michaels
Ultimate, ultimate betrayal. And when we're talking about post traumatic stress disorder and we're talking about the damage that is done, it's not just, oh, it's a slap in the face to survivors. Like it's not just that. It's another layer of betrayal and isolation and stigma that gets laid on the survivors. Yeah, it's a deepening. It's a deepening and it's like it deepens the wound and it throws a bunch of toxic bacteria in it so that it just festers and gets worse and worse and worse. So it's really hard to heal when you don't have an empathetic witness. Right. Like as I explained from, you know, trauma is not the event, it's the absence of an empathetic witness. Well, closing, closing the files and releasing a pedophile is the exact opposite of empathetically witnessing what's happening.
- [22:22]
Jim Acosta
And will it make life difficult for you? I have to assume that you will feel this all these years later all over again.
- [22:32]
Jess Michaels
Yeah. Just feel like, yeah, it won't matter now. I will tell you one of the other things I've seen in my comments is why aren't survivors banning together collectively and doing something? And I want to say I am joining Maria's claim of notice against the government, as are many other Epstein survivors. Because the negligence is beyond just this not releasing of the files. The negligence has actually gone on for three decades on multiple fronts. So the COVID up is huge. And the only way we're going to get to any change in this country or anyone to even feel safe if there are sexual assaults forever. Let me ask you a question. How, how many sexual assault survivors do you think are going to be able to come forward Safely. If a pedophile is let out of jail, a convicted pedophile.
- [23:33]
Jim Acosta
I think that's a great question. And I have to tell you, I think the message that will be sent will be devastating because there are so many survivors of sexual abuse out there who will say, here is the ultimate example of why I should just keep this to myself.
- [23:50]
Jess Michaels
Yeah.
- [23:50]
Jim Acosta
And not say anything to the authorities and not come forward. Because look what happens. You know, this has been going on for 20 or 30 years, and the most powerful person in the world has just freed a pedophile. I mean, I think that's what I think. There'll be so many horrible lessons learned. And it's astonishing. Go ahead.
- [24:09]
Jess Michaels
Survivors did everything right. They went to the authorities. They. Maria called in 1996. And then when. When in 2006, you know, a young girl's mother. It started because a young girl's mother said this was happening. Like everybody has. The survivors and the families have done everything right.
- [24:32]
Jim Acosta
And it also. And it also says that.
- [24:35]
Jess Michaels
And. And what we're told to do, what. What. What society is told to do. Why didn't you report? Well, it is. It is unsafe. It is unsafe to report. And my question to your audience is, who is making it unsafe for sexual assault survivors to report? Because that's the problem. Reporting is not safe. I thought when I first got into advocacy, I thought, oh, we just have to make it easier for people to report. And reporting is not safe. It is not safe on the local level. It is not treated as an injury. It's treated as an interrogation. I mean, it. I think one of the hardest. I could barely watch any of the documentaries. I don't. I don't follow a lot of Epstein stuff.
- [25:17]
Jim Acosta
Yeah, it's hard to watch. No, it's hard to watch.
- [25:20]
Jess Michaels
So somebody kept telling me about the movie Victim Suspect. Have you seen that?
- [25:25]
Jim Acosta
I haven't seen that one. No.
- [25:26]
Jess Michaels
It's. It's a hard watch. It's an important watch because it talks about and shows in documentary formats police interrogation techniques against sexual assault survivors. Wow. Horrific.
- [25:39]
Jim Acosta
It's horrific because they're just. They don't know what they're doing. They probably. In many cases.
- [25:45]
Jess Michaels
Yeah. They need training in trauma informed techniques to understand that that person sitting in front of you is internally bleeding. And you wouldn't interrogate a person that was just in a car crash. They're sitting there and their chest is crushed, their head is bleeding, their arm is broken. You wouldn't start interrogating them in that moment as to what happened. What Car went. And how did it go? You would never think of that. But that's exactly what happens when someone goes to a police station and, and, and tries to report and, and the.
- [26:17]
Jim Acosta
Thing that, that I really struggle with when I think about this. And if I, and if I spend too much time thinking about it, you know, as a father, I get, I get emotional about when I think about it. It's, it's the, it's the aspect of stolen innocence too, for these young girls. And that. That's where I lose it. I, I start to. I just, Even now, just thinking about it, it makes me want to lose it.
- [26:43]
Jess Michaels
Yeah. Yeah.
- [26:44]
Jim Acosta
And it, and it makes me sick that these rich and powerful guys can get away with it.
- [26:48]
Jess Michaels
Yeah. I've had a lot of people ask, well, you were an adult at 22 and you could have made different choices. And to which I say, tell me you don't understand the definition of rape without telling me, because it has nothing to do with anything I did at all. But my life was taken. My sense of self, they call it a, A soul death, like I heard it called it, like a soul. Like, like my, A part of my sense of being in the world was destroyed at a pivotal moment in my life when I was just launching into the world, gaining my confidence, developing my ability to be successful in the world. And it was crushed, absolutely crushed.
- [27:38]
Jim Acosta
You lose a piece of who you are and.
- [27:41]
Jess Michaels
And it stayed.
- [27:42]
Jim Acosta
Can you get it back? Can you get it back? I guess, yeah.
- [27:45]
Jess Michaels
Yes, I think you can. I. In fact, that's what I would say has been some of the greatest moments of my healing experience of me developing a sense of self and self awareness of, of how I feel because I've been so disconnected from my body. The, the symptoms are long dissociation from your body and the numbness that you're walking around with is not evident right away. It took me getting to a place where I finally started to recognize, oh, I have a body. Like, like how I'm. I don't feel good right now. I'm not just going to push through and ignore it. I'm actually going to listen. Took a lot of practice. Seven years of trauma therapy. I've been in trauma therapy for seven years. When people say to me, you're brave for speaking out now, that's not. Was. That's not the brave part. Seven years of trauma therapy has been. Is the bravest thing I ever did was sitting in a room with someone that helped me dissect safely the things that happened. And then for me to take that home and develop and practice coping skills and fail and fail miserably and then go back again the next week. Like, being able, the way it's like being able to look at the things that raise the hair on the back of your neck and get through that in therapy is the strongest thing I've ever done, the bravest thing I've ever done.
- [29:07]
Jim Acosta
Wow. Well, Jess, I think you're so brave in what you do, and I notice that you speak to universities and you speak to different groups, and I think that, that, you know, I, I'm a firm believer in that things don't happen for a reason. People say, oh, things happen for. I don't know if that's, I don't think that.
- [29:28]
Jess Michaels
Agreed.
- [29:29]
Jim Acosta
I, I, you know, and maybe it's for people who go through traumatic events, you know, I, to make sense of it.
- [29:35]
Jess Michaels
They, I think people try to make sense.
- [29:37]
Jim Acosta
They try to make sense of it. Yeah.
- [29:38]
Jess Michaels
And I don't agree. I don't agree at all. I agree.
- [29:41]
Jim Acosta
And I think, yeah, I was just going to say that I don't believe in that. I don't believe in things happening for a reason, but I do believe that things can happen to you and they can give you purpose.
- [29:53]
Jess Michaels
Yes.
- [29:53]
Jim Acosta
And that. That may be the gift that you give.
- [29:56]
Jess Michaels
Yeah.
- [29:56]
Jim Acosta
And I think that's what's special that you do.
- [29:59]
Jess Michaels
I, I feel like I'm. Because I love language and I love to educate. That's who I am at my core. That going through this and recognizing and learning over seven years. Oh, that's what my. I wasn't broken. That's what my body did. And being able to then convey that creates a sense of relatability and understanding. That's what I've seen in my comments. Can I tell you one last story that I want to share this with you because this was really impactful to me. And it goes back to the idea of what needs to change. I think one thing that needs to change is going through filing this lawsuit with the government. They need to be held accountable for their negligence. That's the only way we get institutional change. That's one way we get institutional change. But, but we have to change our culture. So I, I saw this incredible TikTok by a teacher and he was, he was, it was that teacher point of view. And he's talking to his class and he says, okay, what is the, what is the main cause of rape for women aged 18 to, say, 24? And the, and the group of kids is giving thought flashes like, well, the brain isn't developed before, before 25. They're, you know, they're drinking now like so they're not making the best choices. And they're going through all these really thoughtful responses and says no. The main cause of a, of a young woman getting raped is a rapist.
- [31:28]
Jim Acosta
Yes.
- [31:29]
Jess Michaels
And the frustrating part about that is that that TikTok got millions of views because it was such a light bulb moment for everyone. That's how much our culture has to change. That there is, there is no clear. Everyone focuses on the survivor's guilt and the, and the perpetrators innocence.
- [31:48]
Jim Acosta
I think that that's, I think that's remarkable. And we all get those moments of epiphany. And that is a good one too because. And it goes to the heart of what we're dealing with right now. The people responsible for this need to be held accountable.
- [32:06]
Jess Michaels
Exactly all we're asking.
- [32:07]
Jim Acosta
And the survivors are there bravely trying to make that happen. So we as a society have to rally behind the survivor. I don't know. I don't know why this is a difficult concept for people.
- [32:20]
Jess Michaels
Yeah. It's because they still blame, they still blame victims for it. That's why accepting. I think that there's some movement with this issue. That's why it's, it's a, it's a really incredible moment. It's devastating. At the same time, that's a really beautiful moment where people are finally listening and asking to hear sir survivor stories. But three weeks ago, four weeks ago they weren't. Everybody was so into Epstein and the files and the politics of it all. But I have to ask your audience a question. Who would want Ghislaine Maxwell in their neighborhood?
- [32:55]
Jim Acosta
Bingo.
- [32:57]
Jess Michaels
Nobody. Want nobody.
- [32:59]
Jim Acosta
Nobody my backyard.
- [33:01]
Jess Michaels
Would you want her as your neighbor? In.
- [33:03]
Harry Dunn
In.
- [33:03]
Jess Michaels
In.
- [33:04]
Jim Acosta
In course of how I. I 100 agree with you and I think that's what's lost in all of this. And they think that they can kick the can down the road and delay dealing with this. And I suppose he may not do this right away. He'll wait until an opportune moment when maybe the public is focused on something else. But there needs to be accountability.
- [33:26]
Jess Michaels
Yes.
- [33:27]
Jim Acosta
If this happens, in my view.
- [33:28]
Jess Michaels
But 100 I agree with you. Yep.
- [33:31]
Jim Acosta
Jess, I feel like we could keep doing this over for hours. Let's. If we could. Let's continue the conversation and I would love if you could come back when we need you to come back. It would be amazing because I think you're an advocate and you're an articulate, forceful advocate. And I think that's what we need right now. You know, I can ask politicians about it and stuff like that. That's okay. But I think we need more of you, if that's okay for me to say. But thank you.
- [34:00]
Jess Michaels
I appreciate that, Jim. And you call me anytime. I've got, you know, I've kind of turned into a neuroscience geek, so I'm really excited about talking about, like, the brain and the nervous system and how this actually impacts all of us, and because I think that's also the only way it's going to change is if we really start to believe that there's an injury.
- [34:17]
Jim Acosta
Yeah. Thank you, Jess. I appreciate it. It's such a powerful message.
- [34:21]
Jess Michaels
Thank you, Jim.
- [34:23]
Jim Acosta
And make sure you check out Jess online and we'll put up some, some info for where folks can find you in social media and so on, and so they can hear your message. Thank you, Jess. Appreciate it.
- [34:35]
Jess Michaels
Thank you.
- [34:35]
Jim Acosta
All right, Good to see you. Wow. I mean, Jess, you know, we need to hear from people like Jess Michaels. You know, what she has to say is, is just absolutely powerful. And I think she makes an amazing point that what's been lost in all this are the survivors and their stories and what they've been through and the injury, as Jess puts it, the injury that they've been through. I want to switch gears and, and talk to my, my buddy Harry Dunn, and because I want to get into something that's just deeply important to me and that is this attempt that's going on right now here in Washington to erase history, to whitewash history, in particular, what took place on January 6th. Yeah. If we can bring in Harry, let's, let's bring in Harry. And there's just an incredible story in the Washington Post today. I want to talk to Harry about. Harry, how are you? Good to see you, my friend.
- [35:40]
Harry Dunn
Hey, Jim. How's it going, my friend?
- [35:43]
Jim Acosta
Well, I, I, I, I have to tell you, I was just speaking with this wonderful person, Jeff, Jess Michaels. She's a Jeffrey Epstein survivor. And I know you were listening to a bit of that.
- [35:55]
Harry Dunn
Yeah.
- [35:55]
Jim Acosta
And I, maybe you can relate to some of this because of the trauma that you went through and how you're trying to get justice.
- [36:07]
Harry Dunn
Jess was so powerful. I, and I, I did catch a lot of that, and she was absolutely fantastic. And he said it's hard to switch gears. It's hard to. Because obviously that's, it's everything that's in the news now. It's everything that's been plagued. And listen, I don't like, to do comparisons on trauma. And now, of course, you know, if we're. We're. If one person's messed up, then that we all should feel for that person, regardless of the gravity of what we think their trauma is. I mean, some people, you know, that were police officers at the Capitol on January 6th are unaffected by what happened that day. They go around. They. It doesn't bother them. So to treat everybody that experienced something that you did, not to try to compare traumas is just very silly to me. And, you know, if somebody says I hurt, then we shouldn't say why or how much. Like, we should just say, hey, what can I do for you? So I appreciate, Jess, and like you said, to close that interview. We wish we had. There should be a lot more of you out there. Because when you put victims in real life, people, faces, names, like, people thought the Capitol Police was just. It was just the Capitol Police, but once you actually saw, hey, there are real people there. They're human beings. Their fathers, mothers, husbands, wives, brothers, sons, mother. All those. Those are people. It's not just the Capitol Police. They were real victims that day. And once you start putting faces and names with victims. Excuse me, with. Instead of just saying, like, entities or whatever.
- [37:49]
Jim Acosta
Yeah.
- [37:50]
Harry Dunn
And it hits. It tugs at people's heartstrings and, you know, imagine a. A Republican or MAGA loyalist trying to say, you can't say Epstein victim. You could say Jessica Michaels. Like, it's not Epstein victim now. It's Jessica Michaels, who is a. A daughter or, I don't know, you know, her personal mother, wife, whatever. But she's a person. She's a human being. Exactly. Not just, quote, Epstein victim. So, great, great job with that.
- [38:20]
Jim Acosta
Thank you. No, I appreciate it. And. And I. I have been trying to not just do Jeffrey Epstein stories. I mean, I do think it is kind of incredible to watch Trump in this situation that he's in right now, because he's trying everything possible under the sun to distract us to move on, but he keeps saying things. Things keep popping out of his mouth that don't look good for him.
- [38:45]
Harry Dunn
Yeah.
- [38:46]
Jim Acosta
And I, you know, I don't know if we want to talk about that all that much. I definitely want to talk to you about what I. I asked you to come on. To talk about, which is they're still trying to whitewash history. But I mean, just before we do that here, what's been your reaction to this whole Epstein thing? Because, you know, a lot of times I've. I used to call Donald Trump, you know, the Catch me if you can President. Because he always seems like he is one step ahead of the law. And he's just, you know, and he's, he's just trying to outrun the law. That, that's his life. That's been his life. It's been his presidency.
- [39:16]
Harry Dunn
It is.
- [39:17]
Jim Acosta
And I think that's what he's in the middle of right now.
- [39:19]
Harry Dunn
That's exactly what it's doing right now. It's everything. It's like, dang, just technicality this, technicality this or this and that. And, and now if you look at what he's doing with trying to stack the chords and the administrations and trains, these institutions that will favor him. He's, he's, he's playing chess, honestly. And, you know, I, I despise the man, you know, and I hold him personally accountable for what happened to me, my co workers and everybody else that was affected on January 6th. And not just January 6th. Everything that he's done to dismantle all these immigrants and USAID and the veterans benefits, it's Medicaid and just so the list goes on and on and on.
- [40:04]
Jim Acosta
Well, and the fact that he would even think about pardoning Ghislaine Maxwell and, you know, it wasn't that long. It's only been five. What, five or six months. Six months since he pardoned all the January six criminals.
- [40:14]
Harry Dunn
Yeah.
- [40:15]
Jim Acosta
And I mean, that to me is still. I mean that, that, that is, that is one of the more most horrific things I think I've ever seen a president do.
- [40:23]
Harry Dunn
The lack of moral compass by him. Well, you know, first and foremost, we don't expect Donald Trump to be a good person. Like.
- [40:32]
Jim Acosta
Right.
- [40:32]
Harry Dunn
He showed us who he was a long time ago. And I guess the only hope that I had, I say had in the past tense, because the Republicans, members of the Senate in the House and these institutions, they had the opportunity to stand up and show this is not who we are. And they showed us who they are. So that was where my hope was. You know, I mean, you know, Senator Thom Tillis and when he was able to, you know, reject the pardon attorney that he wanted, that Trump wanted to install or where he buck Trump on this and that, but he's still done a lot of work. Crucial bad things that are devastating. So I mean, you know, even broken clocks are right at least twice a day. And you know, Collins and, you know, I, I'll talk this. And this will tie into what we were talking about. Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski voted against Mo Bove, who is and this goes into the rewriting the history part. He just got appointed a lifetime appointment. Was he 44, 46, something like that? A lifetime appointment to the Court of Appeals. And. Yeah, so just think about that for a second. A second. So these, these institutions that are the courts are doing their damnedest their best to, to tie on, hold on to those, these fibers of the checks and balances and the, the demo. Hold on to this little thread of democracy that's left that's dwindling. And you just put a judge that is a Trump's personal attorney, a Trump loyalist, a maga.
- [42:05]
Jim Acosta
It's almost like he's trying to reward these guys who, who got him off the hook, you know, helped him, you know, outrun the cops.
- [42:12]
Harry Dunn
Yeah.
- [42:13]
Jim Acosta
And he's putting them in some primo positions. I mean, Emma Bovet is now going to be a federal judge. His other personal attorney, Todd Blanche, was down in, in Tallahassee talking to Ghislaine Maxwell.
- [42:23]
Harry Dunn
But what it is, they have in common, it's all to serve Donald Trump.
- [42:28]
Jim Acosta
Yes.
- [42:28]
Harry Dunn
These are the people that can, these are the people that can actually bring down, so to speak, Donald Trump. Those are the people. So if he puts people in those positions that won't bring him down, then this is all about Donald Trump. It's not rewarding mobove. This is all about Donald Trump. It's not rewarding Todd Blanche. It's just keeping the people that he can control.
- [42:50]
Jim Acosta
It's insulating him.
- [42:52]
Harry Dunn
It's insulating. It's all about Donald Trump. It has nothing to do with rewarding. I mean, Bova is a scumbag and, you know, and Todd Blanche is a scumbag and Donald Trump says, hey, they're just like me. Let me, let me put them around me to keep them. So that. Exactly. Birds of a feather. So it's not about rewarding them. These, it's this. Everything that Donald Trump did, done, and will do is only about him.
- [43:16]
Jim Acosta
Well, and, and to that point, I mean, let's talk about this because I, if I wake up and I read an article like this, I can't go back to sleep. Yeah, I, my, I, I hit the roof. I'm just going to confess this out loud right now. It pisses me off when I read the story in the Washington Post at the Smithsonian, remove references to Donald Trump's two impeachments is according to the Washington Post, remove references to Trump's two impeachments from an exhibit display. This happened at the Smithsonian's National Museum of American History. I'VE been going to this museum. I grew up in this area like you did. I've been going to this museum since I was a little kid.
- [43:52]
Harry Dunn
Yeah.
- [43:52]
Jim Acosta
And they removed references to his two impeachments from an exhibit display. A person familiar with the plans who was not authorized to discuss them publicly said to the Post that the change came apart, came about as part of a content review that the Smithsonian agreed to undertake following pressure from the White House to remove an art museum director. After the story published, the Smithsonian said a future and updated exhibit will include all impeachment. So, I mean, Harry, one of the reasons why he was impeached was because of January 6th. He incited correction to attack the Capitol to overturn election results. He did that. That's what he did.
- [44:31]
Harry Dunn
Yeah.
- [44:32]
Jim Acosta
And I've had these debates and conversations with these Trump people all the time, and they, oh, you know, it was just a mob that got out of control. If he had accepted his loss like a man, which he didn't, there would have never been a January 6th.
- [44:46]
Harry Dunn
Correct.
- [44:47]
Jim Acosta
And anyway, your thoughts on this. I don't. Again, I, I don't want to get you as fired up as me. I, I, I, I love how you're very Zen about things now, Harry. Forgive me for, for getting you. No, no, no.
- [45:00]
Harry Dunn
You're good, man. Real quick. You said that keeps you up at night. One of the things that keeps me up at night that lately, this is why I have one ear on. Because I. My air condition went out and, you know, in D.C. it's kind of damn heat wave. So I actually have a repairman downstairs now in my basement fixing it. So I have one ear. So if I have to break, that's okay.
- [45:23]
Jim Acosta
Hold on.
- [45:24]
Harry Dunn
Or something. But I got to get this damn. So that, that's to keep me up at night. But also this story, it's insane, man. This is the literal definition of rewriting history. And it's really even more disappointing because I didn't tell you this, but shortly after January 6th, and you know, we testified and you know, the four officers, Canal Aquilino, Daniel Hodges, Michael Fanon, myself, we got contacted by the Smithsonian American History Museum, and we donated some of the things that we wore on January 6, I donated a signed copy of my testimony from the January 6 committee to the Smithsonian. In fact, Nancy Pelosi, when she went over to Rome, had rosary blessed by the Pope given to us for officers that we gave. And I donated that to the Smithsonian American History Museum. So that's amazing. It meant a lot to me and you know, I have receipts for it and they sent me a nice little letter that this will be preserved in American history and we'll do displays about it and this type of stuff, you know, and one of the quote and I'm, this isn't about the specific individual because obviously one individual doesn't make up the Smithsonian. But he said this is how we learn about our history and we continue to grow is by learning what happened and how we preserve it. And this is the, the definition. Joe Biden used this word hyperbole all the time. This isn't hyperbole. This is literally rewriting history and the Smithsonian. Listen, this first sentence that you read from that article after pressure from the White House or Trump administration, whatever the wording was, that's what makes it bad. Now if the pressure. Listen, I understand that exhibits change all the time, but it's kind of coincidental that right after you get pressure then the exhibit changes. And that's, that's blasphemous. It kind of like the, the, the, the mint, the U. S. Mint. Earlier in the year when Trump got, when he was sworn in, the U. S. Mint took down the January 6th gold Congressional Gold medal off of their website and only after outrage by. It was brought to our attention by a couple of journalists and Daniel Hodges wrote a. I think, I don't know if he did an op ed or something but it got a lot of traction and it was right back up a couple weeks after the outrage where, you know, so many of your listeners and my followers and support. Thank you all for that. But it was right back on the website. But they try to quietly do this type of stuff and Donald Trump goes down in history as the greatest leader ever instead of being the, the 34 time convicted felon insurrectionist. I'm trying to do my Nicole Wallace rant where she's. How she introduces liable for sexual assault, 34, disgraced, impeached twice. Like, I mean, I like when she does that too. It's fantastic when she does it because she's calling. I mean she's not lying.
- [48:40]
Jess Michaels
So.
- [48:41]
Jim Acosta
Yeah, you know, and, but I, I think part of the reason why they do it, Harry, is because they're ashamed. Yeah, they're ashamed of themselves. And maybe Donald Trump is not ashamed of himself, but I do think there are people who work under him who are ashamed of themselves.
- [48:57]
Harry Dunn
They're going to have to live with this. I mean these younger people, I mean, you know, going back to these Epstein files with Dan Bongino, the, the, the mess that he Stepped in and, you know, he's posting all these cryptic messages and stuff where I can't believe the stuff that we're on. Okay, then why can't we see it? Yeah, like. Okay, share. Like, that's the thing. Like, everybody would say, oh, now the Democrats care. No, listen, this is what y' all said. Y'.
- [49:25]
Jim Acosta
All.
- [49:25]
Harry Dunn
This was y' all promise.
- [49:26]
Jim Acosta
They said they promised this.
- [49:28]
Harry Dunn
So what's up? Keep your word. What's up? Also, not only that, we're waiting on lower egg prices. We're learning on lower groceries. Like what? All the stuff that you said you were going to do, we're waiting. And that's the thing. So.
- [49:42]
Jim Acosta
Yeah, well, the only promise.
- [49:43]
Harry Dunn
They were lying.
- [49:44]
Jim Acosta
The only promise they want to keep is. Is the. The what they're doing to Hispanic people in this country and rounding them up and deporting. That's the only promise that they want to keep.
- [49:55]
Harry Dunn
That's the only. And that's not even the promise that they're keeping because they said that they were going to go after criminals and that their hotel workers. They're my field workers. Or, you know, anybody that does not even just. Let's not generalize. Just non criminals. They're putting. Anybody that doesn't look like a white man or white woman, they're kicking them. They're doing their best. I mean, did you see the story in Maine where the police are. A police officer was arrested and detained by ICE because they thought this is a run.
- [50:28]
Jim Acosta
They're running out of us to sweep up. They're starting to arrest one another.
- [50:32]
Harry Dunn
And. And it's all based on identity, the way you look. Not identity politics. Identity based on your physical appearances.
- [50:40]
Jim Acosta
Yeah. It's racial profiling.
- [50:41]
Harry Dunn
Racial profiling.
- [50:42]
Jim Acosta
It's racial profiling on a massive scale. And I. I did see, Harry, that you posted a comment about Kamala Harris.
- [50:50]
Harry Dunn
Yeah.
- [50:51]
Jim Acosta
And I guess before. I know, I need to let you go so you can go deal with your air conditioning. But Kamala Harris, I had the same reaction you did When I saw what she said on Stephen Colbert. She would have been a good president. She would have been just fine.
- [51:04]
Harry Dunn
Yeah.
- [51:05]
Jim Acosta
You know, was she. Would she have been perfect? No, but she would have been. Not this. You know what I mean? And. And to me, the. The thing that stood out to me about what she said was she said that she thinks politics in this country is broken.
- [51:18]
Harry Dunn
Yeah.
- [51:19]
Jim Acosta
And I think that there's a lot to be said for that. And she's writing a book about it. And I'll just say, right now if she'd like to come on, she can come on, but absolutely.
- [51:26]
Harry Dunn
We could have rowing, that'd be great.
- [51:28]
Jim Acosta
Harry first but, or we could do it all. But I mean you, you said something nice about her and I was just curious what your thoughts were on the whole.
- [51:35]
Harry Dunn
Well, I think the world of her and I always have, even before vice president, when it was Senator Harris is when I met her at the Capitol and she was so friendly and just so kind. It wasn't an act, it wasn't a facade that she put on because the cameras are on and she would stop and talk to us officers five, ten minutes before she even went into the building because, you know, the offices, you know, you've been up to the Capitol many times and the officers are the first person people you when you go into the building and they would come out there and she would talk to us and she would have conversation. So I just think the world of her.
- [52:09]
Jim Acosta
I, I, she was one of the politicians who would actually be nice. She was to the cops up there. She was. Says a lot.
- [52:16]
Harry Dunn
And you know what, that I'm not even gonna go off of the tangent on that real quick, but some of the people that are the nicest ones don't vote the way that they portray themselves to be nice out there because there's a very nice people who, members of that, you, whatever they, it's a, that's a facade or whatever.
- [52:35]
Jim Acosta
But anyway, yeah, I hear you.
- [52:36]
Harry Dunn
I, I think the world of her and I, I, I glad that she said that politics was broken. And I'll try to draw this comparison real quick because some I saw some comments to say, oh great, now she says that it's broken. Well why did she go? Because, because you want to be part of the solution. And you know, when the Black Lives Matter riots and the George Floyd's riots were going on, a lot of people were calling on me to leave the institution of being a police officer and saying, wait, the police are broken. And you know, why aren't. What are you doing? You can't stand with them. No, listen, we need police officers, but we need good ones. So I want to fix it. I know I can't do it alone, but if people that want to fix it don't participate, then where are we just conceding that we're just going to accept the way that it is? No. So I look for how, hey, how can I be helpful? How can I be useful? So I became a training officer in the, in light of all of the stuff that was going on and hopefully that my training and I think before I left the department, I trained close to about 200 officers. And I hope that something I did would rub off on even just one. And that's the change. And I like what she said, how she's going to go out there and talk to people, people not wanting something but not wanting their vote, but to actually just want to know what's going on with them. And I think that's what we need to continue because obviously when you're campaigning, you're out there asking for a vote, you're asking for something. Quid pro quo. Literally, quid pro. Hey, talk. Hey, will you please vote for me? But she. I'm not asking for anything. I just want to know what's going on with you.
- [54:09]
Jim Acosta
I think that's important and that there's a whole lot.
- [54:12]
Harry Dunn
It's very important. You got a lot. And that's the thing. I'm glad that she's able to acknowledge, hey, we got, we, we messed up. We got some learning to do. We got, we have work to do. And it seems like she's really ready to put in that work. So I'm excited for her, I'm happy for her. And I'm just rooting for her peace, first of all, because all the, in 107 days, all the scrutiny and the level of attacks and it just racist misogyny. Like, I'm just rooting for her peace right now.
- [54:41]
Jim Acosta
That's true. There's a lot of racist, sexist people in this country. And I'm sure that affected the outcome of the election. I mean, that, that hurt her in the election. There's no question about it. And I mean, people just need to remember that when they assess Kamala Harris. Because, I mean, when you say 107 days, when she says that's gonna be the title of her book, I think that's perfect because, my goodness, how are you supposed to pick up, you know, Biden's broken campaign and win an election at that point with that short amount of time? I mean, you know, people don't understand.
- [55:12]
Harry Dunn
How short 107 days is.
- [55:15]
Jim Acosta
That ain't much.
- [55:16]
Harry Dunn
It's not long at all. Like, that's crazy, man.
- [55:18]
Jim Acosta
Like, yeah, that's less time than I've been doing this, you know, in this new thing, you know, And I still don't have it down.
- [55:24]
Harry Dunn
We still don't have it down, man. But you are rolling, man. I'm proud. Shout out to you, Jim, you're doing a great job out there.
- [55:29]
Jim Acosta
And I'm okay.
- [55:31]
Harry Dunn
You know. Yeah.
- [55:34]
Jim Acosta
And I love that, that town hall that we did. I want to do more of that. I, I want to collaborate even more. I've been trying to. I, you know, when I ate up all your time and, and the rest of the guys's time at that in D.C. which to me, just one of the best things.
- [55:48]
Harry Dunn
I gotta interject real quick because even though you ate up, we ate of our time, you made up for it. And we had. We ate for real afterwards. So you. That's made up with dinner.
- [55:57]
Jim Acosta
So we ate really good. We did.
- [56:00]
Harry Dunn
No, I will say, like, I, I love the town hall thing. I love. I, I. Last weekend I was in Iowa and I was in Nebraska, out there talking to voters, talking to, Getting people encouraged. And when I do these talks out there, I, I try to provide a message of resilience. Not just, not necessarily hope. But hey, you know what? I don't gaslight people. And everybody says, hey, we'll get through this. We're going to be okay. I don't know. I don't know. None of us know if we're going to make it through this. None of us know. We hope. But I do know that if we do not stand up and do something, then we absolutely will not make it through this. So we have to keep fighting and we have to keep showing up regardless of what we feel and how it looks. I mean, now, if you're. If you just accept things the way they are, then fine, throw your hands up and give in. But I always tell people, look, I have been through hell so much to the fact that Joe Biden felt the need to give me a pardon to protect me from this unhinged man in the White House so much that he gave me that. So I've been through hell and I haven't quit. And I'm just asking you, don't quit either. The day you see me quit, y' all can quit. Spoiler alert. I'm not quitting, so.
- [57:19]
Jim Acosta
And I. I'm glad to see it. I'm glad to see it. And like they say, when you're going through hell, keep going.
- [57:25]
Harry Dunn
Absolutely. That. Keep going. That's it.
- [57:27]
Jim Acosta
Keep going.
- [57:27]
Harry Dunn
Yeah.
- [57:28]
Jim Acosta
Harry, thanks a lot. Appreciate it. I'll let you take care of other matters, more important matters.
- [57:32]
Harry Dunn
I'm starting to sweat, man.
- [57:34]
Jim Acosta
You gotta stay cool. You got to get cool. And it's actually it. It took a break from the heat today, so.
- [57:38]
Harry Dunn
It did. It did.
- [57:39]
Jim Acosta
But, Harry, best of luck to that. And. And let's keep doing this, man. I really appreciate, always enjoy being in touch with you. And, and also go Dukes, Go Dukes, man.
- [57:48]
Harry Dunn
Go, go, jmu. Take care, my friend.
- [57:50]
Jim Acosta
Thank you, buddy. Thanks, Harry. Take care. Wow, what a great closing message from Harry Dunn there at the end. I think it ties back to what we were hearing from Jess Michaels at the beginning of this as well. There is something to be said for resilience. I, that's just, what a great word to end the week on Harry's message of resilience. I do think now I'm a big believer in hope. And I, as I like to say, you know, I don't say it, it was said in Rogue One because I'm a Star wars nerd and I know this all rebellions are built on hope, but they're also built on resilience. And Harry has, I think, hit the nail right on the head at the end of this week. I hope you are being resilient. I hope you understand what resilience means. Means that there are good days, there are bad days. There are, there are some days where it's two steps forward and one step back. And there are days when it's one step forward and two steps back and it's not all moving in a straight line. And there's that line about the, you know, the long arc of history bending towards justice. That takes time. And so in the meantime, you have to be resilient. You have to show resilience. And I think that that ties back to, I guess, Jess's message of what she was saying earlier on in the program, what the survivors of Jeffrey Epstein have had to endure, the families of the victims of Jeffrey Epstein have had to endure. And I did want to close out, I was thinking about just challenging our lawmakers in this country to, to just, and, and, and maybe this is asking some of them to go against the nature of being a politician. But ask yourself the question this weekend and please confront this, this reality over the weekend. The American people are now on to this, whatever this situation is that, that Trump has gotten himself into with Epstein gate, he is trying to extricate himself from something that he cannot extricate himself from. And the question that, that I think is being posed now to the lawmakers who are on their August recesses and they're off to the beach and the mountains and Europe or wherever the hell they're going. Maybe they'll have some town halls in between. But I think they have to ask themselves question, are you going to make this situation that Donald Trump is in the middle of right now your situation. I mean, it's, I think it's an important question to ask. And are you going to take another hit for this guy? I mean it. When they're trying to erase the history of what took place on January 6th from the Smithsonian Museum of American History, what has happened to this country? What has happened? Are we allowed to teach, are we still allowed to teach people the truth in this country? Are we allowed to teach people the history of this country of what took place on January 6th? Harry just told us a few moments ago that he was asked to donate some of his items to that very museum, to the Smithsonian, so there can be an exhibit and display to remember what took place on January 6th. That display must be presented to the public unvarnished, not whitewashed. We have to make a commitment as Americans right now that we are not going to allow this guy, this guy who is in this tremendous jam right now, he's in such a fix. His foot is caught in a bear trap called Jeffrey Epstein, and he does not know how to get that bear trap off his foot. And that same person is just trying to whitewash the history of this country. We're not going to let it happen. We're not going to let it happen. And I asked these lawmakers who they think that, they think they can, they can do the same thing that Donald Trump is doing. Donald Trump, I've called him before the catch me if you can president. These lawmakers are thinking they can play the same game. Catch me if you can. You're not going to outrun it. Can outrun the truth. You cannot. You can outrun what you've done. Donald Trump. You can't outrun it. You think you can. You can't, in part because we are resilient. Want to thank Jess Michaels for joining me today. Want to thank Harry Dunn. As always, best of luck to Harry to for getting his air conditioning fixed. I hope everybody out there has some air conditioning, although it's cooling down a little bit here on the East Coast. But I hope everybody's having a great summer, having a great August so far. Really appreciate everybody watching. Thanks again for tuning in. Still reporting from Washington, I'm Jim Acosta. Have a great day.