Former Capitol Police Officer Harry Dunn and Researcher of Far-Right Extremism Jared Holt

Summary

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The Jim Acosta Show

Episode: Former Capitol Police Officer Harry Dunn and Researcher of Far-Right Extremism Jared Holt
Date: December 9, 2025
Host: Jim Acosta
Guests: Harry Dunn (Former Capitol Police Officer & Democracy Defender), Jared Holt (Senior Researcher, Open Measures)

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Episode Overview

This episode of The Jim Acosta Show tackles two urgent topics: the consequences of political violence and right-wing extremism in America. Jim Acosta interviews Harry Dunn, former Capitol Police officer and outspoken defender of democracy, focusing on recent attacks among Republicans, the ongoing impact of the “big lie,” and the personal toll of political threats. In the second half, Acosta is joined by researcher Jared Holt for an in-depth examination of neo-Nazi influencer Nick Fuentes, the dangers of platforming extremist voices, and the proliferation of far-right ideology in mainstream politics.

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1. Political Violence and Accountability – With Harry Dunn

Key Discussion Points

a. Trump’s Attacks on Marjorie Taylor Greene

• Trump has intensified public attacks on Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene, despite her own history of inflammatory rhetoric.

• Greene has received death threats and reports a pipe bomb was sent to her house.

  Harry Dunn: "You reap what you sow... I don't believe anybody deserves this type of hatred... But you're right; Marjorie Taylor Greene... she is a flamer herself—from 9/11 being a hoax to... attacks on anti-Semitism and, you know, January 6th." [00:46]

b. Cycle of Incitement and Threats

• Political threats have long affected not just Greene but others, including Liz Cheney, Adam Kinzinger, and Capitol Police officers.

• Criticism is leveled at Trump as a continual inciter of political violence.

  Harry Dunn: "Donald Trump is the biggest stoker of political violence that's ever existed... Exhibit 1A: January 6th, where he had to pardon over 1500 violent insurrectionists." [04:04]

c. Hypocrisy and Wake-Up Calls

• Greene's recent apology for toxic politics is discussed, with Dunn arguing it lacks sincerity or specificity.

• Dunn calls for personal apologies to victims rather than blanket statements.

  Harry Dunn: "You could still be dumb and be against violence, and I guess that's where she's at now. Beggars can't be choosers." [05:26]

d. Broader Impact of Threats

• Dunn recounts the emotional and personal costs of political threats, saying experience changes once it "comes to your front door."

• Accountability must apply to all, regardless of political affiliation.

  Harry Dunn: "That's the thing. The threat is still real. And you need people that are going to be truth tellers...​ Right is right and wrong is wrong." [09:57]

e. January 6th—Permanent Consequences

• The repercussions of January 6th are long-lasting for officers and the nation.

• Dunn expresses that holding Trump and his enablers accountable is now his mission.

  Harry Dunn: "The world would not know who I am and Michael Fanon are. They wouldn't know who none of us are if January 6th didn't happen." [11:08]

Notable Moments & Quotes

• Acosta on Greene's Reality:
  "She’s finding out what Liz Cheney went through, what Adam Kinzinger went through... A lot of people like yourself went through." [02:42]

• Acosta’s Note on the Big Lie:
  "If she still believes that the election was rigged... then you're still part of the problem." [06:38]

Timestamps

• [00:46] Dunn on Greene's history and rhetorical responsibility
• [04:04 & 04:46] Trump as the "biggest stoker" of political violence
• [05:26] Discussion on apology specificity
• [09:57] Dunn on lasting threats and accountability

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2. Far-Right Extremism & Nick Fuentes – With Jared Holt

Key Discussion Points

a. Why Discuss Nick Fuentes?

• Acosta and Holt analyze the dilemma of reporting on extremist figures without giving them undue attention or public platform.

• Fuentes’ proximity to mainstream right-wing leaders and media is concerning.

  Acosta: "Remember, Nick Fuentes dined with Donald Trump... he's a neo Nazi, a racist, he's a misogynist..." [15:37]

b. Fuentes’ Tactics and Influence

• Holt describes Fuentes as charismatic and strategic, targeting young men online and aiming for influence in Republican politics.

  Jared Holt: "He was developing this online cult following of particularly young, far right young men... and he was seeking to use that... to effect change in politics, especially in the Republican Party as it was remaking itself under Trump." [17:03]

• Despite platform bans and scrutiny, Fuentes’ profile has only grown—thanks in part to media attention and willingness of powerful figures to engage with him.

c. Neo-Nazi Label:

• Holt affirms that Fuentes’ public statements and attitudes justify the neo-Nazi and white nationalist labels, regardless of how the figure tries to rebrand himself.

  Holt: "I think describing him as a white nationalist at the very least is the most accurate. And there's a whole lot of other, you know, less generous terms I would use." [20:19]

d. The Dangers of Mainstream Legitimacy

• Recent interviews by figures like Tucker Carlson and Piers Morgan with Fuentes are discussed as normalizing and dangerously legitimizing.
• Fuentes’ misogyny and racism are explicit and often proudly asserted, shocking even seasoned hosts.

e. The Broader Problem—Not Just One Person

• Holt cautions against over-focusing on Fuentes as an individual—his prominence reflects a larger ideological shift and problem on the right.

• Antisemitism and misogyny may be more visible or prevalent in certain segments, and Fuentes’ influence is as a symbol rather than a uniquely powerful operator.

  Holt: "While Fuentes is certainly an important figure... I would caution your listeners to not spend too long fixating on him, but understand him as a vignette of a larger problem..." [29:51]

Notable Quotes & Exchanges

• Piers Morgan grilling Fuentes:

  Piers Morgan: "Are you joking or do you actually think [Hitler] was very fucking cool, the most genocidal monster of the last 150 years?" [22:10]
  Fuentes: "The thing is, my generation, we're just done with the pearl clutching..." [22:16]

• On Women:

  Piers Morgan: "Do you think [women] should have the right to vote?"
  Fuentes: "I do not. No. Absolutely not." [31:18]
  "See, basically you’re just a misogynist old dinosaur..." [31:26]

• Holt on broader influence:
  "If Nick is able to successfully book these appearances... the risk there is that somebody like a Kevin Roberts at the Heritage Foundation ... may start to factor in... do we need to cater to this somehow….?" [35:07]

Holt’s Reflections: On Motivation and Hope

• Why track these movements?

  Holt: "I started doing it because I thought somebody needed to do it... What motivates me... in their most extreme cases, [these] far right movements seek to do violence to people, to vulnerable people, and... to limit freedoms and access to all the good things in this world." [42:26]

• Message to listeners:

  "What keeps this stuff at bay is social accountability... It can be as simple as looking at your friend and being like, 'That's not cool. Don’t talk like that around me.’" [46:00]

Timestamps

• [17:03] Holt on Fuentes’ rise and influence
• [20:19] On labels and dangerous euphemisms
• [22:10] Clip: Fuentes on Hitler and generational “pearl clutching”
• [29:51] Fuentes as a symbol, not a root cause
• [35:07] Dangers of mainstream figures listening to/sympathizing with extremism
• [42:26] Holt on why he continues his work, and the need for social responsibility

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3. Closing: Democracy’s Defense, Social Responsibility, and Media Critique

Key Takeaways

• The episode exposes the cycle of political violence: how public figures incite it and how it reverberates onto both their adversaries and themselves.

• Extreme beliefs and figures are gaining more visibility—not only due to their own efforts, but because respected political and media institutions sometimes legitimize them.

• Accountability is championed as essential—regardless of political party or status—both for acts of violence and for the normalization of extremist views.

  Acosta: “We can’t put blinders on. We can’t close our eyes to the darkest of dark forces… this is not just some fringe figure on the far right. This is somebody who has dined with Donald Trump.” [50:00]

• Exposing such movements is a public service, but must be done responsibly; “social accountability” starts with individuals refusing to tolerate hate among acquaintances or leaders.

On the State of the Economy (Brief Segment)

• Trump calls the economy “A plus plus plus plus,” which Acosta ridicules as disconnected from reality:

  “Nobody thinks the economy is an A plus plus plus economy right now. You must have been caught mid-nap…” [47:33]

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4. Memorable, Punchy Moments

• "You reap what you sow." – Harry Dunn on Marjorie Taylor Greene (00:46)
• “Donald Trump is the biggest stoker of political violence that's ever existed.” – Harry Dunn (04:04)
• “I'll take this Marjorie Taylor Greene over the one who incited violence... Yeah, she's still an idiot.” – Harry Dunn (05:26)
• “If Nick is able to successfully book these appearances...the risk...is that somebody...may start to factor in: do we need to adjust our messaging...?” – Jared Holt (35:07)
• “What keeps this stuff at bay is social accountability...little acts of saying no.” – Jared Holt (46:00)
• “We can’t put blinders on. We can’t close our eyes to these dark forces…” – Jim Acosta (49:53)

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5. Conclusion

The episode underscores the growing urgency for accountability—both in confronting the political violence sown by public leaders and in exposing the dangerous normalization of extremists like Nick Fuentes. Through candid conversation and expert analysis, Acosta, Dunn, and Holt shed light on the roots, reach, and risks of far-right extremism, reminding listeners that hope and democracy depend on collective truth-telling, courage, and everyday acts of resistance.

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Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

Show. And it's another day that ends in Y and Donald Trump's attacks on his political opponents. Today, he's once again going after Georgia Republican Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene. In a new interview with Politico, Trump goes off on Green. That's despite her comments to 60 Minutes a few days ago that these attacks are leading to death threats. Let's talk about this with Harry Dunn, former Capitol Police officer and democracy defender. Great to see you, Harry.

[B]

You too, Jim. How's it going, my friend?

[A]

I'm good, man.

[C]

I'm good.

[A]

It's, I'm so glad you're doing this. And I, you know, I'm calling this you reap what you sow because Marjorie Taylor Greene should know this is where all of this ends up. Your thoughts on all this?

[B]

Well, I kind of agree with you. You reap what you sow. I guess the difference between me and her and people like Donald Trump that kind of have a heart, you know, I don't believe anybody deserves this type of, you know, hatred or rhetoric or whatever as much as I hate and despise people. I guess I wouldn't say it publicly. Right. I would think it, but I guess I wouldn't say it publicly. But you're right. How can you become you're, you are when I say you are. Marjorie Taylor Greene, she is a, and flamer herself from, you know, 911 being a hoax to the, the Parkland shooting down in Florida being they called those crisis actors to attacks on, you know, anti Semitism and you know, January 6th.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

She owes so many Hunter, but she showed Hunter Biden.

Nude of him on the, on the, in a House committee.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

She owes so many people apologies. And for her now, like I'm glad that she's having a wake up moment because this is real people, people's lives are at stake and she is responsible for doing that. I'm glad she's finally seeing the light, I guess. But she's responsible for a lot of it, too.

[A]

She is. All right. Well, and let's, let's dive into this. Let's listen to what Trump had to say. I guess he was doing this interview with Politico and he wasn't even asked about Marjorie Green, but then he started going off on her. This is what she's dealing with now.

[D]

Let's play it Trader Green or some people call her Taylor Greene. Some people call her Taylor Brown because Green sometimes turns to Brown, which isn't nice. But I've watched her say that he spends too much time on foreign well, by doing that, first of all, it doesn't take a lot of time. I made one trip. I brought back trillions of dollars.

[A]

Anyway, that. That was basically it right there. Calling her Marjorie Trader Brown and all this stuff. Green turns brown. I just want to say he looks terrible and sounds terrible in these interviews, and lately, just. He does not look the same. We can talk about that, too. But anyway. But about Marjorie Taylor Greene, I mean, he keeps going after her, and this is now her life. She's finding out what Liz Cheney went through, what Adam Kinzinger went through. A lot of people like yourself went through.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, myself. I mean, Jim, I mean, I'm sure you can relate. Our friend that's been on so many times, Michael Fanon, you can relate. I mean, just look at our inboxes of. So, like, I mean, anytime. We can't get away from this guy, you know, I mean, I, I've been seeking accountability against him, for him since January 7, 2021, and that has come with a price. Marjorie Taylor Green has been against him for what, two months? And now she's like, whoa, this is absolutely too much. I mean, listen, I, I get it. Like, it's real. It's really scary. And when people are out there in the public arena trying to serve and run for Congress and being putting their name, their families, everybody at stake, it comes with a cost. And obviously she found out it was too much of a cost. I mean, death threats against her sons and to her. She got a pipe bomb to her house. None of this is okay.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

But you know what the common denominator is? It's Donald Trump stoking it. Donald Trump is the biggest insider of. Everybody talks about Democrats and the left and antifa. Donald Trump is the biggest stoker of political violence that's ever existed because. Insert exhibit 1A, January 6th, where he had to pardon over 1500 violent insurrectionists.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In his name. And he's lauding them as American heroes. So Donald Trump is the number one stoker of political violence. I don't give a damn what no study says. I was there. We lived it. We lived. And they were all sent there at the Capitol on January 6th because of Donald Trump.

[A]

No, you're right. And, and, and the other thing we should say about Mar. I just want to point out, on November 10, she was still an election denier. She was thanking Trump for pardoning the alternate electors. For the folks out there who remember the alternate electors, remember, these are the ones, you know, they didn't want to go with the Legitimate electors that were part of the process and counting the votes after the 2020 election, the Republicans like Donald Trump were trying to put forward these alternate electors. And apparently some of the people who are part of that scheme were pardoned by Trump recently. And Marjorie Taylor Greene put out a tweet. This is on November 10th. This is not even a month, about a month ago. She's thanking Donald Trump for doing that. So, I mean, as far as I can tell, she's still an election denier.

[B]

Well, Jim, you could still be nuts and be against violence. Like she's nuts. Like she's nuts. Nobody will ever give her the title of being a, the, the, the sharpest knife in the drawer or whatever the saying is. Nobody's ever going to give her that title. But she, she's realized that, you know what? Maybe. And then she, I think she was on with Dana Bash and when she issued an apology. Now, I, I would argue that that apology needs to be a little more tailored and very specific. You need to pick up the phone and make personal phone calls to people, people like Biden, people like the Capitol Police officers, people, people like our friend Fred Gutenberg, David Hogg. There's so many people that she owes personal apologies to instead of this blanket that she does. So, listen, you could still be dumb and be against violence, and I guess that's where she's at now. And I guess beggars can't be choosers. But I'll take this Marjorie Taylor Greene over the elect, over the one who incited violence, who stoked it, who championed it, who applauded the people on January 6, who called the insurrection a hoax. I'll take this version of Marjorie Taylor Green over that one. Yeah, she's still an idiot.

[A]

What was that last thing?

[B]

She's still an idiot.

[A]

Yeah, I, I mean, I, I'll go with it. She's not the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree, but, you know, at least she's starting to say some of the right things. And I think that's a great point, that you can't just apologize for being part of toxic politics, like she's done, without getting into specifics, like, what do you mean about toxic politics? Because if she still believes that the election was, was rigged for Donald or for Joe Biden over Donald Trump in 2020, then you're still part of the problem. Like, that's still the big lie.

[B]

And, and Harry, speaking about part of the problem, Jim, a lot of people that run for Congress, that should be in Congress realize that it is broken, realize that There are problems there, and that's why they want to go to solve those problems, not just throw up their hands and just say, I'm tired of this swamp, this system. No, you actually go there and try to make a difference and try to fight it. So, I mean, like, I mean, that's why I ran for Congress. I mean, like, who in their right mind would. Wants to be in Congress? Because they'd be like, oh, it's a cool job. No, you go there to fix problems, to solve problems. And Marjorie Taylor Greene, instead of that, is running away. And I, I really. That's why I really believe that those threats really got to her. Like, it's nothing. It's. It's nothing about when, when it really comes to your front door, Jim, when it comes to your front door and you're faced with it versus just hearing about it or just hearing somebody's sob story or like.

[A]

I agree. Different.

[B]

It's scary, as you know. You've been there.

[A]

I've been there, too. But, you know, I wanted to. When I saw her make those comments, I wanted to put out a tweet, you know, of Bruce Willis and Die Hard saying, welcome to the party, pal. Because, you know, there's some of us who've been dealing with this for multiple years now. Yeah. And this is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Two months, a month in, maybe, something like that.

[B]

Yeah. Jim Wood. It's been for myself, personally, in the public eye. We're going on five years of being on the front lines of personally attacking, going after Donald Trump, you know, and, and just in the news world, there's a lawsuit that Donald Trump is. Is fighting now to Capitol Police officers that were injured on January 6th have sued him. And now in the news recently, he. He's moving to have some of the discovery not available due to the Archives act or whatever. So there are people that are still on these front lines going after him and not shutting up and not being quiet and refusing to back down. That's why I'm, I, I give myself a pat on the back about it, honestly. And, you know, I. A lot of people call you hero and all this stuff, but I give myself a pat on the back for still staying in this damn fight, even when it looks bleak, impossible that he'll never seek accountability. Jim.

[A]

I know, and I'm glad you're still in it. And you. And I've talked about this a lot of times. You can't, you can't walk away from this, even with his setbacks. And, and, you know, he's back in The White House, and he's acting like a lunatic and everything. And here's the other thing that we have to keep in mind. This just happened last week. Harry, the man charged with planning two pipe bombs near the DNC and the RNC right before January 6, told the FBI he believed the conspiracy theories about the 2020 election. I mean, that NBC, I think, had that scoop first. So, you know, I mean, this just goes to real.

[B]

It's still.

[A]

It's still real. That's right. That's right.

[B]

And that's the thing. The threat is still real. And you need people that are going to be truth tellers that are going to, oh, listen, I didn't care if that pipe bomber right there, I didn't care if it was Nancy Pelosi, as some of the radical right has said. I don't care if it was a Democrat. I don't care who it was. They need to be held accountable, period. The same thing. Like when we talk about the Epstein files, Republicans would be like, well, some Democrats on it. I don't care. Hold them accountable too. Right is right and wrong is wrong. And I feel like that's the difference with Republicans and a lot of Democrats. A lot of Republicans and Democrats, if they can't get to their thick head, we don't care who it is.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Nobody is above the law, which apparently doesn't exist in MAGA world because Donald Trump could do whatever the hell he wants, according to them.

[A]

That's it. And they were trying to, you know, put out this conspiracy theory on conservative media that, you know, it was an ex FBI person or an FBI or somebody in law enforcement who did it. And that just was. It was somebody who believed the big lie and Donald Trump's about the 2020 election. I tell people all the time January 6th would have never happened if Donald Trump had just been a man and accepted lost the2020 election. That's it. End of story.

[B]

No, nobody. Yeah, exactly. January 6th would not have happened. The world would not know who I am and Michael Fanon are. They wouldn't know who none of us are if January 6th didn't happen. And you know what? I would have been okay with that. I mean, I lost my time being a police officer, being a public servant and serving the community, the country. I loved it. I enjoyed it. But now, now the shit. The fight has changed. It shifted. And now it's like holding Donald Trump and anybody who supports him and empowers him accountable.

[A]

That's right. And you know, another thing That I want people to know about you, Harry, is you and I have a special bond. And that is we are both Dukes from James Madison University. Harry's a little younger than me, but get this. In case everybody didn't know this, Harry played football for the team that won the one double A championship back in 2004. There's Harry in the purple and gold.

[B]

That guy's a stud, man.

[A]

Still is. What about JMU making the College Football Playoff?

[B]

I, I am, I could not be more elated and proud of those guys, proud of that program. You know, I, I, I, I thought that our best days at JMU were in 2004, winning the one double A national Championship. And I'm still proud. I'm still proud of that. Like, that is one of the biggest accomplishments of my life. So proud of that. But who would have ever imagined within these. And also, you got to think about it, the coach prior to JMU is Kurt Signetti, who is now coaching at Indiana.

[A]

Incredible.

[B]

And I mean, James, it's something special about jmu. It's something in the water down there. But I'm just, I'm just really proud to be a. And also one of the things currently giving back to the program, there's an alumni, I mean, a mentorship program or former players get to mentor current players. And I'm proud to have a mentee that I support and that I just show up for. I, I can't go to the game in Eugene, Oregon, because I absolutely will be there. I have some previous engagements, but those dudes. What a great, what a great time to be a sports fan, man.

[A]

What a great time. And Notre Dame's complaining. They're not in it. And JMU is, I'm sorry. Come give me a break.

[B]

Notre Dame, I guess all they had to do is win one more game and it would have been all right. Right?

[A]

Exactly. That's right. If you don't make it, there's, there's always next year. But Harry, great to see you, man. Go Dukes. We'll be talking between now and when they play Oregon. I might be watching the game like this, watching them play Oregon. We'll see that.

[B]

That's it, man. Thank you, Jim. I appreciate it. Thanks, everybody.

[A]

All right. Good to see Harry. Thanks a lot. Really appreciate. Had to sneak that in there a little bit just in case folks up there did not realize that we have a bona fide football star in the roster of frequent guests here on the Jim Acosta Show. Harry Dunn, a former Duke of jmu. I want to switch Gears now, but in a way stay in the same, in the same spectrum that our side of the spectrum that we've been dealing with, and that is the far right. Nick Fuentes I've been struggling with. How do we talk about Nick Fuentes on the show without platforming him, without elevating him, without puffing him up? I don't want to do that. It's not my thing. But it keeps coming up as the subject keeps coming up as an issue on the far right. And I think if we're going to understand where we are right now as a country, what's happening in our politics, we have to talk about them. And you know, there was the Tucker Carlson interview that happened about a month ago that started up a huge controversy inside the Heritage foundation when the, the president of the Heritage foundation defended Tucker Carlson interviewing Nick Fuentes. And then just in the last day or two, my old colleague Piers Morgan interviewed Nick Fuentes. And there was a lot of, of information that came out of that interview. But it's something I think we need to chew on. And the way to do it in, in my view, is to do it with an expert, somebody who is a journalist and has studied the far right and understands where Nick Fuentes fits in in all of this. Remember, Nick Fuentes dined with Donald Trump. He is somebody who people on the far right look to, people in MAGA look to, despite the fact that he's a neo Nazis, a racist, he's a misogynist, and so on. Let's bring in Jared Holt. And this is somebody who was recommended to me. I've known Jared in his work for some time, but Juliet Jeske with Decoding Fox News was saying, you know, you need to get Jared on your show. But Jared is a senior researcher at Open Measures and Open Source Threat Intelligence and Social media research platform that organizations use to identify and track online harms like extremism. He's also a co host and producer of a weekly news podcast called Posting Through It. Jared, great to see you. Thanks so much for coming on the show.

[C]

Yeah, it's good to chat with you. I mean, I remember watching you during the CNN years and just thinking, man, they've really given that guy a hard time.

[A]

Yeah, there was, there were some interesting moments. There's no question about it. Got a little heated, got a little testy at times. But now I'm here and, and you're in independent media too, which is terrific. And I think that this world of independent media, the fact that it's growing and thriving in in all kinds of great ways is. Is good for democracy, it's good for this country. And thank you for the work you do. But let's get into this. You heard me, sort of, I guess, do some, you know, do I do some deep thinking there in terms of laying out why I want to talk about Nick Fuentes without platforming Nick Fuentes. This is the problem with dealing with these kinds of figures. This has been going on for some, whether you're talking about David Duke, the Klan, neo Nazis. You don't want to give them any fuel, give them any energy. But you have to talk about it because it is a. It is a very toxic force in American politics. What is your view of where Nick Fuentes fits in with the Republican Party, with maga? I mean, he's dined with Donald Trump. This is somebody who is. You can't ignore them.

[C]

Yeah. And when I first started covering Nick in my career, I would go back and forth on these questions. I mean, this was 2017, 2018. Do I even write about this guy? Do I cover this guy? But ultimately, at the time I finally made the decision that I should be writing about this guy, because even in the white nationalist movement that he was a part of, he stood out. He was young. He was, for better or worse, charismatic on camera, which is a lot more than his, you know, colleagues in that movement could say. And he was developing this online cult following of particularly young, far right young men, mostly.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And he was seeking to use that online following to effect change in politics broadly, but especially in the Republican Party as it was remaking itself under Trump.

So, you know, as much as I debated in those early days whether or not I should even cover this guy, unfortunately, I think my gut feel was correct there. And over the years, despite, you know, massive deplatforming, all kinds of scrutiny, his star has seemed to just rise and rise.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Things that would disqualify virtually anybody else. You know, whether it is praising Hitler or fantasizing about doing violence to women. All kinds of. I mean, the list goes on and on. He's done a nightly podcast, you know, every weeknight for the last. God, eight years, nine years. Right. So there is only 27.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

I mean, there's just this huge backlog of things, you know, of all these terrible things he said, all these terrible things he believes and has tried to organize around. But despite all of this, he continues to be able to wedge his foot in the door and get people in power to pay attention to him.

[A]

And he is, I mean, would he describe himself as a neo Nazi? I know he's described himself. I think he did this in the Piers Morgan interview. We're going to play a clip of this in just a moment. But I think he's described himself as a racist and a misogynist and I believe as an anti Semite.

[C]

I mean.

[A]

Or is it just that we just take from his views that he's expressed that he, he is those things.

[C]

Nick is very picky about how he labels himself. Yeah, and by that I mean he kind of. His line, if you listen to him speak, is that he doesn't label himself. He will label his beliefs accurately, sort of tongue in cheek to his audience, but from my perspective, accurately as racist, as anti Semitic. All the things you just said. But even going back to 2017, 2018, this is kind of in the aftermath of the movement calling itself the alt right, figuring out what to do with itself after the nation saw it. This movement in Charlottesville saw people die that day, including Heather Heyer.

And needed to figure out how to repackage itself, figure out, you know, who's getting sued, who's not getting sued, what the next generation of this is. His objection to labels like neo Nazi, like white nationalists, even, even if those are accurate descriptors of his views are that they are too off putting to people. And if you adopt them, you know, if you wave a swastika around, if you call yourself a white nationalist, if you go out into the public, go on a show like Piers Morgan's show, and are too explicit with what you believe, it's going to be off putting. So his, the way he describes himself, he's always tried to be very strategic about it, but I don't think that means that, you know, journalists should go along with it. I think describing him as a white nationalist at the very least is the most accurate. And there's a whole lot of other, you know, less generous terms I would use.

[A]

Well, and in this interview with Piers Morgan, and I think Piers did, he was tough with him at moments, I'm not sure if I would want to platform him in the same way. I mean, it seems to me I, I just think it's irresponsible just to put him out there and say these kinds of things.

Unless you're really going to put the screws to him. But Piers does grill him a little bit on, I mean, he's expressed admiration for Adolf Hitler and he's been very upfront about his racist views. Let's play a little bit of that and talk about it.

[E]

Jokes. Although I haven't ascertained yet whether you are joking when you say the Hitler was very fucking cool. Are you joking or do you actually think he was very fucking cool? The most genocidal monster of the last 150 years.

[C]

Yeah.

[F]

The thing is, my generation, we're just done with the pearl clutching. You know, you might be, but then.

[E]

Your generation hasn't gone through what Danny Finkelstein's family went through. So maybe, maybe the pearl clutching has a way to go for families who.

[A]

To me, I think that's probably members.

[F]

Oh, my God. We got.

[A]

When he says right there, Jared, that he thinks Adolf Hitler is cool, I mean, that, that makes you. I mean, in my book, that makes you a neo Nazi.

[C]

I think in most people's book that would, that would qualify you, right, in.

[A]

This notion that, well, people in my generation, you know, we're not into pearl clutching. That's also a gross generalization. There are a lot of young people who would not clutch their pearls, but would say that what he just said is, is horrendous and heinous.

[C]

Yeah. My experience with young people given, I mean, I, I am a grown man. I don't hang out with a lot of young people generally, but. But they seem to be pretty, you know, across the board, just from my observations, pretty empathetic and, you know, generally pretty accepting of people. I. Yeah, Nick is talking as if he is representing some kind of majority rather than his own sort of insular online bubble.

[A]

Yeah. And I, you know, what did you make of the controversy with Tucker Carlson? Tucker Carlson did a much more fawning interview with Nick Fuentes, and then the head of the Heritage foundation came out and defended.

I guess, Tucker for doing that interview that caused an implosion inside the Heritage foundation where you had board members resigning, you had people leaving the Heritage foundation over this.

But, you know, to me, what's very strange and peculiar about Nick Fuentes and very different versus what I experienced as a young political reporter and covered neo Nazi rallies and that sort of thing. And when I was a local reporter in Chicago, covered a neo Nazi demonstration outside of Chicago, they. They are not really. They were not really part of the mainstream. And you did not have major media or political figures sitting down with them and giving them legitimacy. And yet, you know, here you have Tucker Carlson doing that. Here, I mean, it, you have Donald Trump dining with him. What do you make of all that?

[C]

Yeah, like I said earlier, part of what led me to start covering Nick so many years ago was this online kind of cultish following that, he had been developing him, you know, around himself and just how, you know, they seem to be eating right out of his hand. He could excite them. He could convince them to sign up for groups that don't exist anymore, like Identity Europa, which was a white nationalist group that rebranded and then sort of collapsed after the Unite the right rally in 2017. But so, so he was able to kind of get this hyperactive online base going and then use it to apply pressure to very online conscious, pro Trump media personalities and in turn kind of tilt things in different directions. He made a lot of headlines in, I want to say it was 2019 because he specifically focused on Charlie Kirk and Turning Point usa, getting some of his fans even to go to live events and try to pressure Charlie guests. He would have, like Donald Trump Jr. That sort of thing, to adopt harder positions, try to embarrass them, try to bait them into making anti Semitic comments, that sort of thing. And.

His ability to do this has been successful, I think, at convincing people that there's like some kind of momentum behind his beliefs, that there are a greater number of people that share his beliefs than really exist. You're not sure about that?

I think it is still a minority. I do think that antisemitism in right wing movements is probably under indexed at this moment in time, especially among young people. And when I say that I'm looking beyond Fuentes as a specific individual, but thinking of the Politico reporting about those group chats that young Republican leaders were in, thinking about people in the administration like Paul and Gracia, who have reportedly been seen at Fuentes's events or I, I hope I'm not misquoting it, but I believe the excerpt, I think Politico also reported this was I have a bit of a Hitler streak or something like that.

[A]

He had a Nazi streak in him.

[C]

Something to that effect.

[A]

You know, just recently there was a controversy about the Coast Guard.

No longer deeming swastikas to be a hate symbol. And then they had to reverse that after it was exposed by the Washington Post. So that, I mean, I've written about this and I've covered this somewhat, that there has been a problem. I, there's a big problem in the Trump administration in this category, it seems to me, and it may be a reflection of where Nick Fuentes is and where he fits in all of this.

[C]

Yeah, I, the thing that I've been telling people is that, I think, you know, Nick is one individual. Right. But, but I think as concerns about this kind of ideology or these kind of beliefs growing in the Republican base maybe, or certainly showing up across different places in our government. You know how NPR did a story earlier this year about, you know, people that have anti Semitic beliefs that work inside the Trump administration. As far as I know, none of them have been pushed out or anything like that. You know, as those beliefs.

[A]

Paul and Gronsky then they, they tried to move him, they've moved him over to the GSA or something.

[C]

I mean, they move him around.

[A]

Yeah, it's incredible.

[C]

It's like, you know, make a wish program for an, for online racist, you know, but, but so like there's those concerns and I think Nick, just because he had that energetic online following, has been able to sell himself to people in Republican media. Now we're seeing even some mainstream media as kind of the face of that or like the avatar of that. And I guess my caution to people would be is to like not miss the forest through this one tree. Nick is certainly an important player in that, but you know, you could just take a stroll down the timeline on X these days there's hundreds, if not thousands of people that emulate his kinds of beliefs to larger audiences or whatever. You know, he, he is one guy and I'm not sure that his specific influence, his specific fan base has actually exploded to the degree some media coverage might suggest. We did a piece of open measures looking at that to see if that idea shook out in the data. And what we came up with was, you know, kind of a question mark that goes probably not, at least not to the degree some people have suggested.

[A]

So while he's a fringe figure who gets elevated.

[C]

Yeah. So like, while Fuentes is certainly an important figure and can be useful to examine to understand sort of a broader picture of what's happening. I would caution your viewers, your listeners to not, you know, it's been too long fixating on him specifically, but understand him as like a vignette of a larger problem that has been bubbling up and causing a lot of stirring in right wing politics.

[A]

And the other thing that I think he embodies to some extent, though I, I, I agree with you, it may be to a lesser degree than we think is the misogyny is the anti woman belief system that it feels like it's spreading among young people on the right. I, maybe it's not, maybe it's just elevated and platformed and so we see it and so we know it's there. But this, he was asked, peers asked him about his views on women will again play Just a tiny clip of that because I don't, you know, I don't want to platform this any more than it needs, but we should at least listen to it very briefly and then talk about it.

[E]

But are you actually attracted to women?

[F]

I am attracted to women.

[B]

You're not gay.

[F]

No, but I will say that women are very difficult to be around. Okay. So there's that.

[E]

And do you think they should have the right to vote?

[F]

I do not.

[C]

No.

[F]

Absolutely not.

[E]

They should stay at home.

[F]

Well, yeah, absolutely.

[E]

See, basically, you're just a misogynist old dinosaur, aren't you? For, for a young guy? I mean, I know I'm the boomer, I know I'm the boomer here, but actually you're a 27 year old dinosaur, aren't you? Aren't you, Nathanis?

[B]

All women.

[A]

I am.

[E]

All women are annoying.

[B]

All women grow old.

[E]

They all get fat. Says the guy. Have you ever had sex?

[F]

No, absolutely not.

[A]

Wow.

[E]

Says the guy who's never got laid.

[A]

All right, there you go. And, and I mean, you, we, I mean, I don't, we don't have to spend time unpacking that. There's some, some weird stuff going on there. But I mean, he's very upfront about just being completely anti woman to the point where he doesn't think they have, should have the right to vote.

[C]

Yeah, I've been hearing Nick say versions of that, even more extreme things about that for years. And it's, it's interesting too. I, I don't want to spend too long about this. But throughout his career, he's also been plagued, you know, kind of been unable to escape rumors about his own sexual orientation, which, okay, is typically, it's like something I don't really care about. It doesn't make a difference to me. It's his life. But it does become relevant when he's spreading such a aggressively anti gay message.

You know, does hypocrisy even matter anymore? Who knows? But, you know, but, but yeah, I, I, I tend to agree because again, if we're looking beyond Fuentes, Fuentes could be useful to understand this. But over the recent years, we've also seen the rise of personalities like Tristan and Andrew Tate. Right. Who the Trump administration went out of its way to try to help out of a legal bind and that sort of thing. So it's, and you know, those are two guys that are, you know, accused of trafficking women. Right. You know, it. And promote all kinds of horrible attitudes about women to their, their followers. So it's that, that kind of message. Are those attitudes getting more popular? My gut says yes. I don't have data or you know, really hard research that I've done to point to on that, but my gut feel says it's, it's getting more popular. At the very least it's getting more visible in online right wing media.

[A]

And I, you know, part of me wonders, Jared, if Nick Fuentes and maybe even the Tate guys wouldn't be in the position that they're in of influence if it were not for Donald Trump. I mean, I think Donald Trump dining with Nick Fuentes elevated him to a place where he, he just instantly becomes more important in MAGA and on the far right. And when he's interviewed by people like Tucker Carlson, he instantly becomes more important to people on the far right. He, he becomes somebody that, that I guess folks over there want to listen to him. And I think that's dangerous. And I think some of this is the responsibility. I mean some of this goes back to Donald Trump and he bears responsibility for this. And people like Tucker Carlson who know better bear some responsibility for this.

[C]

Yeah, I mean personally, yeah, I tend to agree. It's, you know, what I said earlier, is his die hard fan base really growing? I'm not so sure. Looking at the data, I could not point you to something to say, look, there it is, there's the group.

[A]

Interesting.

[C]

But what has changed over the last year or two especially is who seems to be listening, who seems to be giving him the time of the day. And it's one thing to get a lot of views on something, to get a lot of engagement online, but in terms of affecting change, affecting political change, what really matters is who's viewing it. Right. And if Nick is able to successfully book these appearances on these large media programs and convince people that he is important, I think the risk there is that somebody like a Kevin Roberts at the Heritage foundation or you know, people at places like Turning Point USA or the Daily Wire, you could name any kind of right wing media or policy shop. Yeah, if they are convinced of that argument, they may start to factor in. You know, I can imagine them, you know, in a meeting room somewhere thinking do we need to adjust our messaging? Do we need to cater this or to this somehow or do we need to turn a blind eye to it? Is it worth trying to self police our movement against this kind of stuff? And that's kind of been, you know, that was the big debate you saw after the Tucker Carlson interview. And that kind of continues to roil as rightly media really kind of is spiraling in this vicious cycle of infighting at the moment.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, there's, there's a huge fight going on inside that world over all of this. But here's the question I have, you've been researching this for about 10 years. You've been researching Nick, my goodness, for eight years, I believe, is what you told me that, that is, and for folks who were like, why would you do something like that? You have to understand this is in the tradition of places like the Southern Poverty Law Cent, which, you know, goes back a generation or two of, of doing this kind of very important work researching right wing extremism which can turn violent in this country. So I, I, I think it's terrific that you do this work, although I, I worry about folks who spend a lot of time delving into these subjects because they can just be so terribly disturbing. But why do you do it, Jared? And, and the second part of the question is maybe Nick Fuentes is not more influential than perhaps he was a few years ago. Maybe that's not the case. But how much more pervasive are these views in the far right with some of these other outlets and you know, podcasts and I mean, it seems like it is proliferating, it seems like it is expanding. Maybe not Nick Fuentes and him alone, but this, this worldview seems to be more pervasive than I recall. I don't know, maybe it's just more visible that, and that might be it. But your thoughts on that?

[C]

Yeah, I'll, I'll start with the second question because in the first one I see a chance to, to wrap up on a cheery note or at least stick message, which is necessary when I talk about this kind of stuff. Yeah, so, so in terms of like whether these worldviews are growing and stuff, I certainly.

Also feel the same thing.

This was something I kind of had on my mind and was worrying about during the second Trump campaign. So much of the chatter, explicit campaign messaging, sort of implicit policy proposals, that sort of thing were all centered on this idea of retribution or payback that, you know, you tried to, you know, they, in air quotes here, they tried to put him in prison, they tried to take him out and tried to knock this movement off the map. People were banned from the Internet. People were this and that, this and that. So we're going to come back and we're going to be uglier and meaner and nastier than ever. And when people get in that mindset, when people, you know, this very, just hyper extreme us versus them. Dichotomy in group, out group. The kind of thing that definitionally defines an extremist worldview is, you know, like an in group perceived at war or at conflict.

With, with an out group. Right. I think that has really permeated and sort of ended up being a turnkey to a lot of the nasty stuff that we see today.

That mentally, that's where I kind of go back to is, is that shift happening? And with it, you know, of course, social media companies pulling back restrictions, reinstating accounts, people who were banned for what, in my opinion, in a lot of cases was of totally fair reasons.

All of you know, that's coming back. The administration is embodying a lot of this, which is also a permission slip that people perceive. And you know, all of that together, I think is very sort of risky.

You know, it very.

Could be like stomach churning. Some, you know, some days, you know, I, I've been doing this a long time and some days there's even stuff in the news that, that gets to me and I just think, you've got to be kidding me. Like some of these, some of this stuff going on with ice, that sort of thing.

But why do I do it? Why have I been doing this for 10 years?

I started doing it because I thought somebody needed to do it. All of this stuff, you know, had such a direct relationship to the Internet. I was a kid who, you know, some people are like really into movies and sports or this or that. I'm really into music. And if I have time to kill, I like to just kind of explore online. So I felt like I had a pretty good shake of it and could cover it. Turned out I was decent at it, pretty good at it, and I kept doing it. But the reason I keep doing it, you know, despite the harder days, despite, despite some of the nastier ways that it has affected my own life at certain points, whether it's death threats, stalking this or that, you know, is that.

I.

I have managed to find a way to deal with it in like a clinical way. It took me some years to get there. It almost ate me alive at one point in my career. But I worked through it. It got to the other side. I, I feel now I can approach it in a clinical way and for as long as I can do that, I think I will. Because ultimately what motivates me here is that these far right movements.

Seek to.

You know, in their most extreme cases, do violence to people, to vulnerable people, and in a broader sense, seek to limit the freedoms and, you know, Access to all the good things in this world, to people.

And I would like to live in a world where people can be themselves, their fullest selves and their honest selves, and feel like equal parts of society and feel like wherever they go is a safe place and a welcoming place for them. So it's the pursuit of that that keeps me going and feeling like what I'm doing, even if it is, you know, I'm not under the illusion I'll ever write a research paper that will save the world or anything like that, but if what I do.

At least helps people understand the threat or. Or keep somebody, you know, a little safer or feeling a little bit more confident or whatever it may be, that feels worth it to me.

[A]

Yeah, no, I agree with you. And I think that, you know, it. This is where it gets to be a tough thing being a journalist sometimes, but I think sometimes just exposing this, holding it up to the light of day and letting other people see it, and maybe there will be somebody who stumbles upon this podcast or hears what you're saying, Jared, or sees your work online, and maybe they've had a temptation to. To, you know, flirt with these views or adopt these views, and they hear, you know, rational, decent people talking about this in a rational and decent way. Maybe they think, you know what, Maybe that's. That's not something I want to be a part of. And I think that is a helpful thing. I think it's a productive thing and. And a good thing. So thanks for what you do and, and thanks for helping us talk about this, Jared. I, I, I struggled with how to do this, and I've been struggling with this for several weeks. I talked to a class at Georgetown recently, and this was when the Tucker Carlson thing came up, and I asked the kids in the. In the class. I shouldn't say kids, the young adults in the class, and I said. And this goes to your point, you were saying earlier, I said, you guys. You guys know who Nick Fuentes is? Oh, yeah, we know who he is. We know he is. You guys think Nazis are bad, right? Like, yeah, they kind of almost laugh. Yes, of course we know Nazis are bad. Of course we know that. And it just makes me think, okay, this is. This is a grounding thing that I just experienced as. As simple as it sounds. But it goes to your point that we do have these freak shows out there, and we have to investigate them and expose them, but we also have to keep in mind it may not be more prevalent, it may not be more pernicious. Than maybe we fear that they are. And that knowledge is helpful too, I think, in the long run.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. Prevalent in the scope of society. Prevalence among people in charge of the government right now is another question.

[A]

That's another question.

[C]

And I would hope, you know, I do want to distinguish that a little bit because we don't want to.

[A]

Optimistic atone. That's. That's correct.

[C]

There's a, there, there's a, you know, 10 kinds of red flags shooting off every branch of the government these days in that respect.

[A]

But I agree with you.

[C]

You know, it's. But I, But I think, like.

[A]

What.

[C]

What keeps this stuff at bay is social accountability. Right? Um, it, it is like little acts of saying no or little acts of, you know, for, for just the random person tuning into this. It can be as simple as looking at your friend and being like, that's not cool. What are you like, don't. Don't talk like that around me. You're kidding, right? Little. You know, everybody can have like some little kind of role in this. And I hope also research into this, reporting into this empowers people to feel confident and not scared to stand up against it when it shows up in their life.

[A]

Yeah, that's a great message, too. Jared, thank you very much for your time. I appreciate it. Juliet was right. You were a great guest. So thank you. Let's do this again.

[C]

Yeah, thanks for having me much.

[A]

Yeah, thanks. Thank you, Jared. Thanks a lot. Appreciate it. Jared Holt with Open Measures does very important work on all of this. Make sure you check him out on Substack and. And all of the other places where he's reporting. He's on all the socials. I do want to wrap up just very briefly by saying, I guess Donald Trump is doing some affordability event in Pennsylvania. I guess he's gotten the message that affordability is a problem in this country. But during this interview with Politico, listen to the grade he gave himself on the economy.

[B]

Want to talk about the economy, sir, Here at home. And I, I wonder what grade you would give a. A plus?

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

A plus plus plus plus plus.

[A]

Well, it's a plus plus, plus plus. How many pluses was that? Was that four? Was that five? I don't know. How many? Is there any human being in the United States of America right now who would give Donald Trump's economy any. And a plus plus plus plus. Whatever that number of pluses was? Nobody would do that. Nobody would do that. And this is yet again, I'm going to keep doing this on a daily basis I should call these segments Earth to Donald. Earth to Donald. Ground control to Major Tom. Donald Trump. Nobody thinks the economy is an A plus plus plus economy right now. You must have been caught mid nap during that question because nobody thinks the economy is doing well at all right now. There is an affordability crisis in this country. Groceries are getting more expensive.

People are already freaked out about their Obamacare premiums skyrocketing if that isn't taken care of here in the coming days. And so, you know, we have a situation right now in this country where, you know, this, this economy only works for the very wealthy. It only works for people like Donald Trump. It only works for people like Donald Trump and his buddies in this country. Right now. Everybody else is getting the shaft and he's going to try to go up and tell the American people that, that they are not in touch with reality. It is Donald Trump who is not in touch with reality. Earth to Donald. We do not have an A plus economy right now. And we'll leave it with that. My thanks to Harry Dunn for coming on today, a terrific guest as always. And I, and I, I'm gonna go and check out the feedback that I get on Jared Holt. I think he's terrific. I thought the comments that he made were very, very.

Important and I'm glad that I had them on. I know that, that talking about these kinds of nefarious forces, evil forces, if you will, on the far right are difficult to talk about. I think in, in my view.

We can't, we can't put blinders on. We can't close our eyes to.

The darkest of dark forces even in our own society. And even, and as Jared was saying just a few moments ago, this is not just some fringe figure on the far right. This is somebody who has dined with Donald Trump. This is somebody who has sat down with Tucker Carlson and is now getting offered interview requests by people like Piers Morgan.

And I've written about this, Jared has done even more extensive reporting on this. There are people inside the government of the United States of America who harbor these kinds of views. And so the tentacles, I hate to say this, but the tentacles are spreading inside of our government from people who have these kinds of views. And they, all of this has to be held up to the light of day. As difficult as it, as it can be to listen to, as disturbing as it can be to, to listen to, it has to be held up to the light of day. And I, and I hope that you're okay with going along on this journey with me from time to time when we can do it when we can do it responsibly. I'm not going to have.

That son of a gun on this show. Not going to have that, that, that guy on this show. Forget that.

But he's garbage. He's a garbage person. But I, I do think there is some benefit to.

Peeling back the curtain just a little bit to see what's happening on the far right because I think at the end of the day as out to lunch, as out to lunch Donald Trump is right now at the end of the day he is responsible. He is responsible for this proliferating on the far right. He bears responsibility for this and we're going to keep holding his feet to the fire when it comes to that subject. Again my thanks to Harry, my thanks to Jared, my thanks to all of you for watching. Still reporting from Washington, I'm Jim Acosta. I'll see you next time.

Sam sa.