← The Jim Acosta Show
The Jim Acosta Show
Former GOP Strategist Stuart Stevens on Greenland Threats and Elliot Williams on ICE and a New Book on Vigilante Bernie Goetz
01:02:15
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Welcome to the Jim Acosta show. And it's another day that ends in Y and Donald Trump's assault on American democracy. Add to that his assault on global stability. Over the weekend, Trump set a letter to Norway's prime minister warning that he Trump was no longer committed to peace as he did not win the Nobel Peace Prize. This as Trump is still weighing the idea of invading Greenland. Meanwhile, the ICE assault on Minnesota continues. Today, ICE raided a home in the Twin Cities where they grabbed a US Citizen apparently out of the shower. Here to talk about this as former Republican strategist Stuart Stevens with Lincoln Square Stu also wrote it was all a lie about the modern day Republican Party. He also has a great piece just out in substack about an attack on a synagogue in Mississippi. I do want to get to that in just a moment. Stuba, great to see you again. Thanks for coming on.
- [00:56]
B
Great to see you. I'm glad, you know, that this whole Trump thing's really working out. You know, I mean, as you know, Mitch McConnell said back in 16, the presidency will change him.
- [01:07]
A
Yeah, the, the mantle of the presidency will rest upon his shoulders and he would be transformed into a modern day Ronald Reagan. So much for that. That didn't work out so well. But I mean, where do we, where do we start? I mean, I think we should probably start with Trump saying he's no longer committed to peace, telling the Norwegian prime Minister he's pissed he didn't win the Nobel Peace Prize. But neither did you or I, Stu.
- [01:31]
B
So there is that look, I had most congenial in the sixth grade and I'm willing to give that to Trump as well. You know, the of it's just also insane. And look, you know, this is on Republican senators particularly. This is what they're tolerating this absurdity. And in many ways I think, Jim, there's a very simple through line here. We know the Russians, thanks to Marco Rubio, Senate Intelligence Committee, among other studies, helped elect Trump. What Trump is doing is beyond the wildest of dreams of the craziest lunatic in the Kremlin. He's managing to have the United States go to war with NATO. I mean, it's over Greenland can't make it up. It really is. And you know, I just have such disgust for these Republicans. They're the legacy to the greatest generation. And nobody's asking them to charge a machine gun nuts or take a hostile beach. All they have to do is stand up for the oath that they took.
- [02:43]
A
You know, and whatever happened to Marco Rubio, I Mean, he was the. He was the chair, I think briefly, of the Senate Intelligence Committee, and he's the Secretary of State. I mean, he knows how batshit crazy this is.
- [02:55]
B
And, yeah, now the same Marco Rubio who, by the end of his tenure at Secretary of State, is going to be responsible for millions of deaths of kids by shutting down usaid. Right. You know, when I. People ask these questions, you know, like, what happened to Marco Rubio? What happened to Lindsey Graham? You know, the only conclusion I can come to is nothing happened to him. The other was just a fraud that they. When it was convenient, Marco Rubio would pretend to be Time magazine, put him on the COVID the Republican savior. And when it's not convenient, he'll be whatever Donald Trump wants him to be. And he was never very much to start with. He was sort of an accidental figure in Republican politics who was elevated by Jeb Bush. And I wouldn't be the first to say that. You know, a lot of that was due to the fact that Jeb thought it was very cool. He was married to a former Miami Dolphins cheerleader, and he elevated him. And, you know, in Florida, you can be legally a lobbyist and a member of the state Senate. And Marco was.
- [04:03]
A
Wow.
- [04:04]
B
And, you know, my old client Charlie Crist, who was governor, who should have run for reelection, but was engaged to a woman who wanted to live in Georgetown, so he decided to run for the Senate instead. And that. And it was clear he was never going to win a Republican primary because he was too moderate for where the state was.
- [04:23]
A
Yeah.
- [04:23]
B
Where the party was. So then you get Marco Rubio, and Donald Trump just broke him.
- [04:30]
A
Yeah. There's no question about. I mean, he's just a different human being, it seems to me now. But maybe. Maybe you're right. Maybe he was always that same person. And it does kind of add some irony to the term little. Little Marco. But, I mean, the other thing that we should talk about is how Trump just completely sells out to Russia and all of this, too, because what's. What's a bigger win for Russia at this point? Taking Ukraine or blowing up NATO, or I guess maybe he might get both.
- [04:57]
B
Yeah. Trump's going to try to deliver it all. You know, if nothing else, we're not talking about Ukraine anymore. We're not talking about the largest war of genocide since World War II in Europe. We're talking about Greenland. I spent a couple of weeks in Greenland this spring. Was very cool. Encourage everybody to go.
- [05:17]
A
Yeah.
- [05:18]
B
You know, we have a military base. We have military bases, multiple bases. In Greenland?
- [05:22]
A
Yeah.
- [05:23]
B
It's not like, you know, it's North Korea hovering over there.
- [05:26]
A
I've been saying that we already have Greenland, basically.
- [05:31]
B
What? What do you want? You know, when I was in Greenland, one of the sort of big subjects of discussion was there's a line in Greenland for which under that line, you can have dogs that are not huskies. But above that line, you're only allowed to have pure red huskies because they're trying to keep the breed pure. And. And that was the level of sort of social concern and discussion that was going on in Greenland. And now it's like, are we gonna be invaded? It's absolute madness. And, you know, let me say the Donald Trump today is the best Donald Trump tomorrow he'll be worse, and the next day he'll be worse.
- [06:10]
A
And they're sending Danish special forces. This vice got some video of Danish special forces showing up in Greenland. I mean, this is how pissed off they are. And I was talking to a Danish journalist that I'm friends with, I met at a conference a while, and he was saying, you know, we're part of NATO. Obviously people know that. But he said, can you imagine being the Danish family of a soldier who died fighting in Afghanistan on behalf of the United States after 9, 11, and then going. And then. And then going through this. I mean, how disgusted must they be?
- [06:42]
B
You know, I have a SEAL friend who was in Afghanistan, and he said that the toughest guys were the Danes and the Norwegians. Their special forces were the absolute toughest. You know, think about it. You know, there's that wonderful tradition that they have in Scandinavia of honoring what America did.
- [07:08]
A
Yes.
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B
What we did when we helped free Denmark and Holland. The way children go out and light candles at Christmas on the graves of the Americans and the Canadians, many Canadians who are buried there. And that was the America that you and I grew up in, Pax Americana, that brought the greatest prosperity in the history of the world to the west, that helped spread democracy. And now we're just rolling it back and we're just getting started, you know.
- [07:47]
A
Yeah, we're at the one year mark of Donald Trump coming back into power, and that's on Tuesday. And I think I saw you said recently, Stu, that you're worried that we already are an autocracy, that we've just. We've already gotten there. It just happened.
- [08:03]
B
I think we are. I mean, look, you have a Republican Party that does not function as a traditional American party. There was always a quality of American political parties that at some point they would throw the circuit breaker. And the Democrats wouldn't allow crazy George Wallace to become nominee. And Republicans didn't throw the safety breaker. And they are completely complicit in this. And Donald Trump is compromised by Russia. He's acting as a functional asset of the Russian Federation. And if you're a Republican senator and you're going along with Donald Trump, he is compromising you. You were compromised by Russia. And I say this to my old friend Roger Wicker, who helped elect John Cornyn, who I helped elect. Say it to John Thune, who I've known since he was executive director of the Republican Party. Guys, you are acting like Russian agents, right? And this is going to be your legacy. No, you think that you're going to get remembered for, like, that money. You got to build this bridge and this library and maybe they'll name an airport for you in some obsc are. No, no, no, no, guys, you know, this is what you're going to be remembered for.
- [09:19]
A
And maybe they'll get a plaque in, in Moscow. I mean, it was reported today the Kremlin confirmed that Trump has asked Putin to be on this board of Peace for Gaza. I mean, it, it, this, this is some that you would think you would find in the Onion. But it says, the Kremlin said on Monday that Vladimir Putin has been invited to join Trump's board of Peace and that Moscow is studying the proposal. This is somebody who is basically a, who is a war criminal over what has taken place in Ukraine. He's butchered women and children in Ukraine.
- [09:50]
B
Yeah, I mean, did so today. And, you know, I don't think the Biden administration did enough in Ukraine. I think the idea of being overly concerned, if you can use kind of such a trite phrase about a nuclear response, I think that was ill thought. I think that once you give someone that power, they might as well have that power. I don't think that all the people I read that I find really compelling, like Timothy Snyder and Ann Applebaum. Putin doesn't want to commit suicide and he wasn't going to do this. But you didn't. So I don't think Biden did enough. But you didn't wake up in the morning saying, I wonder who the President of the United States, what side he's on.
- [10:37]
A
Yeah.
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B
And really, we can't ask that anymore about Trump because he's clearly on Putin's side. And, you know, the degree to which the Republican Party has been compromised by Russia, I think is one of the great underreported, understudied stories of our time. And it's been going on for a while. I mean, you go back early warning signs or the way that they funneled all this money into the NRA and they were compromised by this and then they clearly compromised the Heritage foundation. And now you have that consistently, for decades the single greatest antagonist to the Soviet Union and then an expansive Russian Federation was the most conservative element of the Republican Party. And now it's the beating heart of the pro Putin. And you know, the reason I wrote this book and called it was all a lie is because I don't know any other conclusion to come to you. Don't say that you're a Ronald Reagan Republican, the guy that stood in front of tear down the wall Mr. Gorbachev and you go along with Donald Trump. No. Either you're lying then or you're lying now. And I think all this stuff that we put out as principles for the party were just marketing slogans. So we'll be strong on Russia. Bring down. Okay, don't want to be strong on Russia. Fine. You know, we'll think Putin should get the Nobel Peace Prize.
- [12:07]
A
It's the stuff that Republicans used to accuse Democrats of being, being exactly. Being soft on, on communists and, and, and, and my goodness, the shoe is certainly on the other foot. Stu. The other thing I got to get you to talk about is Minnesota because I mean, I just want to show this video of Greg Bevino. He's the head of the cbp. He is basically the, I mean he looks like a little dictator walking around the streets of Minneapolis. And you know, he wears this, he wears this Nazi era trench coat that, I mean it's not cosplaying Nazis if you're doing the kind of shit that they're doing. Yeah. In Minnesota, it's not cosplaying fascists.
- [12:49]
B
It seems to me these guys are going to end up in jail. And it's up to the Democratic Party to come up with a mechanism to hold all these people accountable at the top, not just the thuggish agents. There has to be a trial of Stephen Miller. There has to be a trial of this guy. There has to be a trial of this ridiculous former Miss Snow Queen who's Homeland Security director. And I think the way it needs to the democracy to talk about it is the role that states will play in this because Trump is going to pardon all of these people. But fortunately there's not a state in the union which it's legal to kidnap in human traffick and assault and murder people. And that's what they're doing so just as there was a coalition of state attorney generals that finally got the great tobacco settlement. There needs to be that kind of coalition of these attorney generals to go after these people and to have a basically, you know, our version of truth and reconciliation that they had in South Africa, except have more of a legal element to it, holding people not only responsible, but to have consequences.
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A
Yeah. I mean, and just. And just today, I mean, we showed this video, too. There's a man from the hmong community in St. Paul. He was picked up by ICE. They barged into the house and grabbed him. He's a US Citizen. Apparently, he was just taking a shower. And it's like 20 degrees below zero with the wind chill right now in Minneapolis St. Paul. And he's walking around outside being led around by ice. Frog Marsh by ice. And he's in his underwear with a blanket over his back.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And then they, apparently, they drove around the block a couple of times, figured out that he was a citizen. I mean, this is some sick shit.
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B
Yeah. Listen, you know, what I'd say to J.D. vance is, you know, you ever looked at your kids, J.D. they don't exactly look like heritage Americans. No one is going to, you know, cast them in the remake of A Coal Miner's Daughter, you know, and has there ever been a history of hatred and rage against Asian American immigrants? I kind of remember that there were, you know, like, maybe Japanese Americans and others.
- [15:06]
A
Right.
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B
And so what's it going to be like when this turns where you're not just going after brown people or you're going after people, like, of another skin color? You think they're not going to come after your kids?
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A
Yeah.
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B
Really, J.D. and you're going to. You're going to say if, you know, say one of your kids is out there trying to do the right thing and stop this and an agent pulls a gun on them? They have total immunity.
- [15:37]
A
The mayor of St. Paul, apparently she said this at a. At a congressional hearing on Friday that we have received reports of federal law enforcement officers going door to door asking people where the Asian people live right now in our very own city. This is according to the mayor of St. Paul. She said this at a congressional hearing.
- [15:54]
B
Check the vice president's residency. You know, I mean, here's. How sick is J.D. vance? He's married to a woman who is a citizen because of the 14th amendment, and he's against the 14th amendment. He talks about how it's perfectly normal to have bad feelings, where he said antagonism towards someone who moves in next door, doesn't speak another doesn't speak the same language. That would be his family, that would be his in laws.
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A
And he says we don't have to apologize for being white anymore. Yeah, well, that's clan talk, isn't it?
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B
Ever. If ever there was a case to be made to apologize for being white, J.D. vance would be number one there. As the, as a thing. You know, there's something about this that connects to what we were talking about earlier, how the Republican Party became everything that we said that we were against. It's the right, the far right particularly, but the right that always talked about what the left wanted to do was have an army of masked men, a paramilitary federal force going around and going after American citizens. And that's what you have now. Yeah, I mean, this is, this is like the absolute infowars fantasy come to life.
- [17:15]
A
And it's straight up authoritarianism, it seems to me. I mean, they, they're just, they're going after Minneapolis and Minneapolis alone maybe because they don't have the numbers to do this in other c. Or this is the, this is the Minneapolis.
- [17:27]
B
Because the governor of, you know, was someone who like, said bad things about Donald Trump ran against. Yeah, that's, that's why they're doing this. And you know, it's the thuggish sort of behavior of Donald Trump. It's just who he is. He's a thug.
- [17:45]
A
Yeah. You know, and, and talk about ghosts that are still with us. Stu, you wrote this great piece for Substack the other day about what just took place. And, and because there's so much stuff going on these days, we miss certain headlines. I kind of missed this. You wrote about this on Substack. The Mississippi of 1967 has pushed its way back into the 2026 news cycle almost 60 years ago. On September 7, 1967, the Beth Israel synagogue was firebombed. And now we can add for the first time to the description as a synagogue in the same location was bombed this week. It was, it was subjected to a, a firebombing attack, if I'm not mistaken. Is that right? And tell us why you wrote about this. What is, what does this mean? Well, you know, larger sense.
- [18:31]
B
I grew up in Mississippi during these days and I remember very clearly when the synagogue was bombed. That was the summer of 1967. I was as a kid working in my first political campaign and I. In those days, there was a phrase that people used about race, that if you were moderate on race, you were good on race. And my parents were moderates on race. And they were close to a guy named William Winter who ran against the last avowed segregationist, John Bell Williams, for the Democratic nomination of Democratic nominations for governor. And then getting the Democratic nomination was tantamount to victory because there really was no Republican Party. And I work for that guy. I write about this. And one of my most distinct memories and one of the reasons probably had some profound push for me to go into politics. Winter got a lot of death threats because he was moderate on race. And you know, at that time there was always this question, who could you trust among law enforcement? Because we now know that Schwerner, Chaney and Goodman, the three civil rights workers who were murdered in Mississippi in the show but county, they were stopped by deputy sheriff and turned over to the Klan. So when William Winter was running for governor in the summer of 67, he didn't have any security. I mean, most people who run for governor now still don't have security. But my dad had been an FBI agent and he and some other either off duty or retired law enforcement kind of tried to provide security for Winter. And I remember so distinctly Jim being in a basement of a. I mean a locker room of a high school football stadium down on the Gulf coast of Mississippi. And Winter was supposed to give a big Friday night rally when people still came to Olympic rallies. And there had been a very specific death threat that he goes out there, he's going to get shot. And my dad and these other guys tried to talk Winter into not doing it, but Winter refused. He was going to speak. They went out and they got a big bulky bulletproof vest like they had then, and he wore it under his jacket. And then my dad and the other guys went out to their cars and came back with rifles and put them under long coats and they went out there. And I just remember seeing Winter walk out and think it was the bravest thing I've ever seen. And so they now know that there was someone there that was intended to shoot him, maybe didn't because there was security. The recording of his death threat was wiretapped because at that point the Justice Department was wiretapping so much in Mississippi going after the Klan. And it's in a. That the tape is actually in a wonderful film about William Werner called the Toughest Job. But so not shortly after John Bell Williams, segregationist backed by the Klan, won the Democratic nomination for governor, the synagogue was bombed. And I think that it is so telling, you know, the mask KKK agents who are out there and now we have mask ICE agents out there. Now, are ICE agents like the kkk?
- [21:42]
C
No.
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B
But is the fear of being publicly acknowledged for what you were doing the same. Yes. You know, as you know, you've covered. It's better. Anyway. Law enforcement in this country has gone in the complete opposite direction toward transparency, toward body camps. And they say they're worried about being, I don't know, outed or something. I mean, you have FBI agents to put DEA agents to put testify in open court against narco terrorists and are convicted by judges who aren't hooded.
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A
Right.
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B
These, you know, seems to be largely overweight, kind of steroided up, bottom of the barrel. Last call at goals gym. Steroid hour. ICE agents.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Are out there threatening people. You know, it's just sick and it's. If you're a Republican, just let me tell you something. That somebody that, like, I helped elect more of these people than anybody. This is killing you. Look at the numbers.
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A
Yes.
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B
People don't like this. You know, the. Well, she had it coming of a woman who was in a Honda Pilot who was shot three times in the face. That's a pretty small group. And immigration a year ago was Trump's best issue. It's now one of his worst because of what they've done. And, you know, when you look at this, you know, politics, we always say you didn't need a message or a really good message or a really good messenger. If you have both go, wow, you're off to the races.
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A
Yeah.
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B
What is the message of the Republican Party? Why do you. If you're not already formed, which is an increase decreasing number every day, what are they doing to get you to vote for him?
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A
Yeah.
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B
Who are the messengers? I mean, they let Stephen Miller go on television. Yeah. Like Stephen Miller.
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A
Yeah.
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B
I mean, really?
- [23:53]
A
Yeah.
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B
One of the things that I, you know, that I, I sometimes think about and just, you know, almost burst out laughing. Stephen Miller's children are going to grow up in a minority majority America. And. Hey, Stephen, there's nothing you can. Katie, there's nothing you can do about it.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Maybe refound Rhodesia and move there. Bring your kids.
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A
I was gonna say maybe they can move to Greenland, you know, maybe.
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B
Well, you know, I don't think they'd like the native Greenlanders.
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A
That's probably true.
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B
Yeah.
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A
They'd have, they have a tough time with all the different spellings of the town names and whatnot. But I think you're absolutely right. I think that, you know, maybe, maybe the, the, the message these days is, is Sort of Ivan Drago's Message from Rocky 4, I will break you. And it's just not going to work because the American people, they're just, they're. They're already standing up against this. And I think we're just going to continue to see that throughout this year. I mean, just. That's where we are, I think, as a country.
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B
Yeah. It's so incredibly dangerous.
- [24:53]
A
Yeah.
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B
You know, our country with more guns than people.
- [24:58]
A
Yeah.
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B
And you start having armed thugs going door to door. You know, this is just a recipe for just tragedy. And, you know, if you go back to the civil rights movement, it was the federal government that was on the side of the good guys, you know, and go back to Schwerner, Cheney and Goodman in Mississippi. You know, you look at Mississippi Bernie, or read the story, you know, FBI agents who came down.
- [25:25]
A
That's right.
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B
Who got these guys, because the local law enforcement. And there wasn't an FBI agency office in Mississippi then. And they started one. And, you know, when. When Eisenhower national federalized the National Guard in Arkansas, it was to enforce Brown versus Board of Education. So. I don't know, Jim.
- [25:51]
A
Yeah. Those idealists of the 60s, I tell you, you know, if we need some ghosts to come back, maybe we can use some of those.
- [25:59]
B
Might, Might.
- [26:00]
A
Might come in handy right now. I tell you.
- [26:02]
B
Let me just say, I said one thing. You know, the thing that really, I have such little respect for these MAGA people. You know, if there is a group of Americans who have a reason to be bitter, a reason to give up on the system, it's those who were tortured, murdered, laws passed against them to stop them from voting. And those are African Americans. But they never lost faith in the system. They didn't storm the Capitol. And yet these, you know, Camp Auschwitz MAGA Republicans do. They gave up on America. And I think it's just so telling and so weak. And, you know, we talk about how we have to sort of understand these other people. I don't want to understand the guy in the Camp All Sword sweatshirt. You know, I don't want to meet this guy halfway.
- [26:53]
A
Yeah, there is no meeting him halfway.
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B
I just want him like, you know, arrested and make sure he doesn't hurt others.
- [27:00]
A
Yeah. No, I think you're absolutely right. The. And on this Martin Luther King Day, the authors of Non Violence, of Peaceful Non Violence, I think that is the way. And we're seeing that on the streets of Minneapolis. We're seeing this all across this country. We're seeing on no Kings Days. And I, I Think we're just going to continue to see it throughout this year and it is going to swarm and overwhelm the folks who want to do us harm. And I just, that's how I see this playing out. I don't see it happening any other way because it's just, it's in our character to do it.
- [27:33]
B
Yeah, it's betting on the wrong America. You know, when Donald Trump goes out and tries to scare white suburban voters about non whites moving into their neighborhood, I think it's a total mischief, wrong assumption. It's, it's a, it's a bad bet because, you know, we know lots of people that live in the suburbs, lots of white people. And all the ones I know, if someone who was a different race or different religion moved in next door, they would go out of their way to show their kids. This is how you treat people.
- [28:09]
A
That's right.
- [28:11]
B
And you know, your average teenager in Mississippi, now, he doesn't want to be Robert E. Lee, wants to be like a black rap star. It's a wrong bet on culture.
- [28:22]
A
Yeah. No question. Well, Stu, always great to catch up with you and what you're doing, Jim.
- [28:29]
B
I mean, what you're doing every day, fighting the fight. And it's, it's really out there on the edge of the spear manipulate.
- [28:39]
A
You've got the Statue of Liberty over your shoulder, I've got it over mine. And we're, I, I believe in, in hope and, and I think people got to hang on to it. I don't think this is any time to give up. Not, I think they're the ones who are on the ropes, not us. Just may feel like it sometimes. But great to see you, Stu. Thanks a lot.
- [28:57]
B
All the best. Take care.
- [28:58]
A
Great, Great message in that substack. So check it out. Thanks. Thanks, Stu. And I, I, I think Stu is spot on. And what we're seeing in Minneapolis play out, I think it costs calls from some expertise, somebody who understands what is going on from a law enforcement perspective out there, from a justice perspective out there, who's written on some of these issues and talked about some of these issues. And I haven't spoken with this gentleman in some time on the air, but I'm delighted to do it now. Elliot Williams, colleague. Good to see you, Elliot.
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C
Thank you.
- [29:34]
A
Thanks for dropping by. And Elliot, we should.
- [29:36]
C
Oh, my God, I didn't even get started here.
- [29:38]
A
Elliot is the author of a great new book. Let's put it up on screen so everybody can see it. Five Bullets. It is about the vigilante Bernie Getz, for the folks who are old enough to remember this, and there are some who watch this program, they'll remember him as the subway vigilante and the trial that divided the nation. Elliot wrote all about this, and. And the way it's relevant now, it's. It's relevant now in so many ways. But, Elliot, great to see you again. It's really nice to catch up.
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C
Absolutely, Jim. Really nice to see you. And, you know, funny. Relevant in so many ways, starting with what you were talking about with Stuart throughout that entire interview. So much of American politics Since certainly since 19, the 2024 election and on to now is about safety and. And. But safety masquerading as something else. What is public safety in cities? How safe are people, and what are political leaders saying about how safe folks are? You think this ice, all of this ICE business, I think, is at its core weaponizing this idea of how unsafe people feel, brushed over with a patina of racial resentment. And it's a lot of what we saw in the 1980s as well, that sort of a big part of the backdrop behind the Bernie Getz story.
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A
Yeah. Well, and I do want to dive into the book and talk about the book, but, Elliot, I remember from our old days, you know, being on the anchor desk together and stuff like that, that you were former federal law enforcement. But. And then you. As we were getting ready to go on earlier today, you shocked me. You told me that you had worked at ice, you had been at ICE for five years. And I just want to say. Did I get this correct, that you were an assistant director at ice.
- [31:25]
C
Assistant director at ice Pretty quite senior at ice.
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B
Okay.
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C
So, you know, I'm quite an expert on the workings of ice, for lack.
- [31:34]
B
Of a better way to put it.
- [31:35]
A
Well, and there's ICE enforcement, and then there's what we've been seeing play out in Minneapolis, where we've seen it play out in Chicago. But, I mean, just today. And I'll just play this video again, Elliot, maybe you saw this earlier, but I'll play it again. A gentleman from the hmong community and St. Paul was apparently grabbed out of his house. He didn't even have. They didn't give him time to put his clothes on. He's in his boxer shorts, and he's got a blanket over his head, and it's like 20 degrees below zero with the wind chill in Minneapolis. He was apparently picked up because they thought he was somebody that they were looking for. Turns out he wasn't. And he is a U. S. Citizen and this is just playing out over and over again. And this is a statement from the Facebook account, Hmong American Experience. And this is written by a woman who is a relative of this gentleman and said that he is a naturalized U.S. citizen, has no criminal record. And Elliot, I, I guess we got to start here. Your thoughts on what we've been seeing play out. Obviously you have to have immigration enforcement in this country. You don't disagree with that? There are people who shouldn't be here, need to be removed. That has nothing to do with what I feel like we're seeing right now.
- [32:42]
C
And you know, Jim, I really appreciate that you said that and just sort of, you know, no nation on the planet has truly open borders. Everyone has some method of immigration enforcement. Now, what I will say, and you know, look, let's just be blunt. You're in bad, you're in a bad place if someone who was from the Obama ICE department is saying, whoa, you guys, you know, you went a little bit far there. You know, you got a problem. So you know what, you know what I think we had when I worked at ice, that simply is not present right now. And that's a critical Congress. Any Congress that can step in and say, you know what, you guys are either not spending the money we've appropriated for you.
- [33:27]
B
Well.
- [33:27]
C
Or you were just simply violating the civil rights of people. That's missing. And just a little bit of quick history for you. Back when I, at the beginning of the Obama administration, it was 2008, 2009, Democrats controlled Congress and most of the heat from Congress came from within the Democratic Party toward the Democratic administration. It was criticism of how ICE enforced the law. And I remember, yeah, it was, it was for that first two years it was very aggressive from Democrats. Zoe Lofgren was the chair of the House Immigration subcommittee there and really was, you know, was pretty firm with the agency in terms of how it was doing things. And there were reforms put in to the agency and consistent oversight. Now, quite frankly, then Congress shift hands, shifted hands and Republicans took over. And then the criticism came from the right, which is, you guys aren't deporting enough people. But what's missing right now is some grown up, which would be Congress in any other normal time in America to say this is too much and this is not, number one, what the agency should be doing. And number two, what the law says and what Congress's appropriations, the money that's been sent ought to be directed toward that is just entirely gone.
- [34:44]
A
And when the other thing, Elliot, is, I mean, Obama Did a lot of immigration enforcement. They did a lot of deportations.
- [34:51]
C
Yes.
- [34:51]
A
I remember covering this. I covered the second Obama term. There were folks in the immigrant advocate community who referred to Obama as the deporter in chief. People do not remember that, but that is something that occurred. It happened, but you guys did not do this. And I just want to show the video of Greg Bevino walking around like. I mean, he looks like. I mean, let's just. This is my character. He looks like a figure, like right out of a 1940s film about what took place in. In, you know, fascism back in that era. But, like, why is Greg Bevina walking around in this long, green SS looking trench coat? I mean, it's insane.
- [35:29]
C
It's insane. And I just, you know, look, it's not revisionist history, Jim. And I am, as I've gotten the social media comments, I've got like, I get it. I know people were critical of the Obama administration as well. I understand. But that behavior would not have been tolerated. That sort of flexing and saber rattling at the highest level, that's a sub cabinet officer, you know, that's to use the government speaker, some of the really, really, really big job in government and.
- [35:57]
A
Just walking around spraying people in the face.
- [35:59]
C
Yeah. And just sort. But relishing the fact that the cameras are on. It's not like this was gonzo journalists picking this up. They want to be. Just look at their social media feeds. They want to be highlighted for doing this work. And I just think it's the turning the immigration enforcement into a bit of a public circus for the clicks and the enjoyment and the dunking on immigrants. That is where we've taken a really horrible turn. And again, a lot of it's Congress, a lot of it, you know, is the American people elected someone who said he was gonna do this. I mean, but they think the show.
- [36:38]
A
Is part of the deterrence. Right. I mean, this was sort of the criticism of the family separation policy during the first term of Trump, which I covered, which is the optics. They think people will say, oh, you know, these optics are terrible for Trump. They're radioactive politically. But if you talk to the people inside Trump world, they like the optics.
- [36:54]
C
Because the optics, because it works for.
- [36:55]
A
Them as a deterrent.
- [36:57]
C
Yeah, it's the optics. But beyond that, it's also a lot of the other egregious actions that ICE has taken over the years. So deporting someone who, let's say is a Cuban or Jamaican immigrant, but deporting them to Mali or Mozambique or something. A place that they don't speak the language, don't have any family connections, that is designed to fit, frighten people from being in the United States. Now, again, let's be clear. The law only requires that people be removed from the country. It doesn't say where to take them to. Right. That said, you're under no obligation. You don't have to do that. If you're the government, you know that it's incredibly inhumane to take someone that doesn't, even if they don't belong in the United States for whatever reason, to take someone from the United States and place them in an environment which they don't know anyone, don't have any ties, don't have any community. It is absolutely sadistic. And I say this as someone going back to the first sentence of your interview. Yes, I agree we ought to have immigration enforcement, but just not in a sadistic, vicious manner as a means of just trying to get people not to come to the country.
- [38:05]
A
Yeah, well. And we should talk about your book because it delves into these issues of race. It delves into these issues of vigilantism. I guess back in the day, Bernie Goetz would have been embraced by maga. Oh, he would have embraced. He would have been a figure of FOX News. And one of the interesting things that you write about in your book is he became a darling of Rupert Murdoch in the early days of the New York Post.
- [38:32]
B
Let's.
- [38:33]
C
Yeah, so it's interesting. So I. Well, a couple things. One, I interviewed Bernie Goetz. He has not. Oh, yeah, yeah. He has not interviewed, I don't think, for a book ever. And certainly doesn't do a lot of media interviews.
- [38:43]
A
Oh, wow.
- [38:44]
C
What was fascinating.
- [38:45]
A
And he's still alive, obviously. Oh, he's still alive.
- [38:49]
C
Yeah. 78 years old, lives in the West Village in Manhattan, same apartment. And what's really fascinating about Bernie Getz's politics, and they didn't come out. I didn't ask him what his partisan leaning was. But it's sort of this populist. Like if you were to make a Venn diagram of Trump, rfk, and quite frankly, Bernie Sanders, this sort of the elites and the bigwigs and the fat cats are out to get you and they're out to get me, and they're all aligned against us and they don't care about public safety. It's sort of this. This critical of government populism that he has right now. I think he's pretty Trump adjacent. A lot of the things he said to me seemed to At a minimum, he felt that. Or feels that the media singled out and targeted and persecutes Trump or persecuted Trump. And he feels that they've done that to him ever since he opened fire in that subway car. He has been the persecuted one. And there's just this constant sense of.
- [39:43]
A
He feels a kinship. He feels, he feels a bit of a kinship with Trump.
- [39:47]
C
Yeah, he absolutely does. He feels that, you know, they, they turned on Trump just like they turned on me. And if people really knew the truth, they wouldn't turn on either of us.
- [39:55]
A
And we should just for the folks, the young kids who are watching or the young adults story.
- [39:59]
C
Right.
- [39:59]
A
Three days before Christmas 1984, Columbia University wrote up your book. This is how they wrote it. Aboard a number two subway train, Bernard Getz, a 37 year old white electrical engineer and Manhattanite who is obsessed with the city's crime problem, opened fire on four black teenagers from the Bronx. Though the teens were acting rowdy, they have not mugged or assaulted Getz or any other writer. And these four young men, they were all wounded, but they weren't killed.
- [40:25]
B
Right.
- [40:25]
C
Although. Yeah, go ahead.
- [40:27]
A
No, you, you.
- [40:28]
C
No, I say one of them. So they're all wounded. Gunshot wounded. Surprisingly not horribly. The three. And then one whom Getz stands over and is believed to have said, shot and then said, you don't look so bad. Here's another. And shot again in his chest, is paralyzed from the mid chest down and ends up ultimately in the hospital. He goes into respiratory arrest, goes into a coma, ends up brain damaged for the rest of his life.
- [40:53]
A
Wow. And this, this story just electrified the New York tabloid media and it was a media sensation.
- [41:02]
B
Yeah.
- [41:03]
A
For this. In this country for years.
- [41:05]
C
Yeah. And you, you know, and we got. I digress, talking about my interview with Bernie Goetz, but your question was ultimately about Rupert Murdoch. Right before the shooting, just a couple of years before, Rupert Murdoch had bought the New York Post and had shifted its coverage toward sensational sex and crime and just disorder stories. Big headlines, splashy headlines, but really designed to frighten people, really about crime. And all of the tabloids in New York sort of followed suit. So you had the Post, the Daily News and Newsday, all in this race to frighten people even more and shock them about how bad the public safety climate was in the city. And to some extent, Bernie Goetz came out of that and was, number one, a citizen of the city who was purporting to be frightened and scared and always carrying a gun everywhere and terrified in an objectively rough City, but also who was lifted up by the New York Post and the tabloids. Lifted up as quite a hero. And I really get into that in the book Five Bullets, like what, what is it that makes these heroes that society choose, many in society choose to lift up for, for carrying out these violent acts.
- [42:14]
A
Yeah, but Elliot, I mean, what's interesting about the Murdoch thing is that it is very reminiscent of what he does, what they do on Fox on a daily basis. The way they drive up the outrage in the hostility surrounding big crime stories and they do it all the time, all day long on Fox.
- [42:33]
C
Oh, I, There's a line in the book and it's no surprise that Rupert Mur. You know, that this ultimately led to the creation of Fox news in about 15 years. You know, the example I use in the book when, when sort of pulling back and talking about some of the things we live with today that we lived with in 1984, but that really are the heart of who we are as Americans today. Race, crime, fear and lifting up of vigilantes. Right. And also media bias. But one of the things I talk about is think about how many times on cable news you see toy stores being looted or CVS is being looted, but not. And here's the example I use in the book Parks in, right here in New York City. Like this is why I look like I'm in a prison right now. I'm in a hotel room in New York. But right here in New York City, Bryant park, just a couple blocks from where I am, used to be an open air drug market. There is now a Whole Foods across the street from it. That's not getting shown.
- [43:28]
A
No, it's not.
- [43:29]
C
It's not. But what you're seeing are the images of the CBS being looted because that's what frightens people and whips them up and tells them that they're more scared. And that's sort of a big subtext of my book Five Bullets. Like what, what, what is it about fear and what frightens us so much and how everybody got so scared and ultimately led to the shooting in 1984, but also affects everybody today.
- [43:52]
A
Yeah. And I tell people this all the time. Who, who? And I say this on my show from time to time. You know, people don't understand what, what is going on in New York City unless they actually live there or visit there or work there on a regular basis, is, I think it is still regarded as the safest big city in the world, if not one of the safest big cities in the world.
- [44:11]
B
And you could.
- [44:12]
A
You could go to. I wouldn't advise going to Central park at night. You can go to Central park, you can go to Times Square, you can go to Bryant Park. You can pretty much go anywhere in Manhattan, and, you know, it's going to be okay. And the way Fox was, you know, drumming up all these stories about Mom, Donnie and what was going to happen in New York if he got in there and all this other. It's sort of. They completely, you know, avoided the elephant in the room, which is it is a relatively safe place to be.
- [44:38]
C
Yeah, so a couple things on that one. You know, I spent a big part of the beginning of five bullets talking about the climate in New York in 1984, where it was legit rough, Jim.
- [44:47]
A
It was a shithole back in the day.
- [44:48]
C
It was a shithole back then. I mean, I'm. I'm not going to say I was born there. I'm going to call it a shithole. But it was, well, let's put it this way. Let's not use the term shithole, but let's say it had a homicide rate of 2,000 a year, which is four times what it is today. So it was, you know, and the.
- [45:02]
A
Subway was horrible and Central park was dangerous.
- [45:06]
C
And so all those things now get to today. And we are. This whole fight over National Guard in big cities is about the public perception of how safe cities are. Right. The data suggests that they are objectively safer. I just quoted homicide rates. Now, even if people don't feel safe, we're not in a position where, like it was decades ago, in which literally walking down the street, you might fear homicide or serious assault. So what is it that empowers leaders now to act out in the way that they do, or at least govern in the way that they do around public safety and sending National Guards in and so on? Well, it works. And when people get scared, they tolerate a certain level of, number one, action from the government in the form of troops walking down the street. But number two, vigilante behavior. And a lot of people legitimized and accepted that kind of legitimate, that kind of vigilantism that came from a guy like Bernard Goetz.
- [46:03]
A
And did Getz express any remorse or regret?
- [46:07]
C
In fact, Jim, he was unrepentant in my call with him. And actually, the question I asked him in my interview, and I talk about this in the next to last chapter, chapter 27 of the book Five Bullets, I asked him, do you feel you committed an act of public service? And he actually says, those Guys needed shooting. They needed to be shot. Wow. That's not why I shot them, but they needed to be shot. And for him, it's almost eugenics. It's almost thinking that there are just irredeemable people in society and we should be rid of them. So, no, there's no remorse, if anything.
- [46:39]
B
Wow.
- [46:40]
C
And something we all know, frankly, is our parents age, people calcify in their views, and I think he's just sort of dug in on the things he believes, but he's gotten. Not apologetics, not a word. It's actually unrepentant and in. In fact, almost boastful about the act.
- [46:57]
A
Wow. Well, it's a fascinating book, and I. I think that, you know, I think folks need to check it out. It's very relevant. It sounds very relevant to a lot.
- [47:07]
C
Of what we didn't even. I mean, real quick, we didn't even get into the Daniel Penny, Jordan Neely, the subway choking in New York City. That was literally the same case. The same.
- [47:16]
A
Literally the same case.
- [47:17]
C
Something violent happened in the New York City subway. A white guy, vigilante, or a white guy, whatever you want to call him, stepped in for the safety of either himself or others, committed a violent act here, killed somebody. It's literally the same case governed by the same law, which is State versus Getz, the case that governed the Daniel Penny case. So it all. We're living it all constantly. And that's a lot of what the book Five Bullets is about.
- [47:43]
A
Yeah. And I love that it delves into some of the darker forces in our media trying to exploit these kinds of stories for financial gain and political gain. And it's. It's. It's that, like that old expression, it's history is not one thing after another. It's the same damn thing over and over again.
- [48:04]
C
And last or next one. The other thing I would say is it's not just the themes and the topics, Jim, that I think keep coming up. It's literally the same people. It's Rupert Murdoch. The big characters in my book Five Bullets are Rupert Murdoch, Rudy Giuliani, Al Sharpton, Curtis Sliwa, and the nra, which funds part of his criminal defense. Literally, they are the main characters that were sort of circulating, circling around this story.
- [48:29]
A
And you're so right. Rudy Giuliani rode the same wave to power as well. I mean, that's how he did it. That's how he did it. Elliot, great to catch up. Great to see you, man. Good luck with the.
- [48:39]
C
Jim.
- [48:39]
A
Wow, you're in book mode. You're. When I did my book, I was like, got to do this interview. Got to do that interview. But it looks terrific, and it really seems like you work very hard on it.
- [48:48]
C
So it's, you know, it's a slog. It's a labor of love. It's. The real Churchill had said that, you know, it's. It's a hobby, a fascination, a spouse, a mistress, then a tyrant. And just as it's a dragon that's about to kill, to kill you, you slay it and throw it out into the world, which is actually kind of. It's still killing me. I don't know if I'm ready to dispatch this. I hear you, man, but I'm nearing the end.
- [49:15]
A
When I did mine afterwards, I said, I will never do this again. And because it was. It was like giving birth. And I know I shouldn't say that because she was the same thing, but it was excruciating by the end.
- [49:27]
C
Yeah, I mean, I. It's just. I did find parts of it to be joyous. And even writing about old New York, some of the city that I remember as a kid, even in the grime and disorder, it actually was like, sort of like kind of cooled a certain way writing it, so that was special.
- [49:43]
A
That's great. And I'm. I'm a New York Phil, too. I don't know what you call it. I'm one of those. I heart New York guys. Do. Both my kids were born there, so I. And I've lived there a couple times. It's got a special place in my heart. But, Elliot, great job, man. Really appreciating. Really nice to catch up. Good to see you.
- [49:59]
C
Thanks. Always happy to talk to you, Jim. All right. That was wonderful.
- [50:02]
A
Terrific. All right, sounds good. Let's do it again. All right. Good luck with the book. Elliot Williams there, check out his book. And I just have to say, because, you know, this was one of those. It was one of those weekends in D.C. where it was cold, it was miserable. I didn't go out a whole lot, and so I looked at my phone too much. I was sort of like J.D. vance this weekend. I was. I was on the socials a little too much. One of the things that I noticed was that Elon Musk came after me. I don't know if you guys picked up on this, but I guess some ass wipe on Elon Musk's website wrote about Jennifer Welch, and I. I was on her podcast. The. I've had a podcast recently. We had a great time. Was A lot of fun. I said the F bomb way too many times, which is true. But I guess we also had this discussion about how, you know, one of these days there will probably have to be prosecutions of people in the Trump administration for, you know, violating the law. It seems like that would be something that would have to, have to happen at some point. And here we are talking about it. I don't know, I guess we could play it. And then the MRC thing that you see at the top, this is one of those conservative groups, they take clips of other folks in, in rag on them. So that's what that is all about. But Jen and I talked about this and Elon Musk retweeted this and, and said they mean it. You know, they mean it. We're coming after, we're coming after people. You know, Jen and I are a couple of podcast hosts. We do not hold any kind of role in law enforcement. Although if you become a podcast host, apparently you can be the FBI director, you can be the deputy FBI director and so on. So maybe Jen Welch and I will run the FBI someday. And if that's the case, then we may have to weigh the idea of prosecutions for some of the turkeys and clowns and criminals that Donald Trump has working his administration. But Elon Musk retweeted that and he said they mean it when it's when this person wrote. Democratic activists Jim Acosta and Jennifer Welch say mass prosecutions of Trump and Republicans would be necessary for national reconciliation with Democrats regain power and, you know, and expanding the Supreme Court would be required to jail Trump. A couple of things and. Do we have all night? We don't have all night. So I'll try to, I'll try to be as, as cogent and concise as I possibly can. As an old history teacher of mine once said, it seems to me, it seems to me when you are grabbing a US citizen like we saw over the weekend out of the shower, pull him out of his house in his boxer shorts, allow him to put, I guess, a blanket over his shoulders into 20° below wind chill weather in Minneapolis and parade him in front of the public in the way that they did with this member of the Hmong community in the Twin Cities. Absolutely disgraceful, horrendous behavior on the part of our federal government. It does raise the question whether ICE is totally out of control, whether this administration is totally out of control. And this is just, I mean, this is just one of many examples that we've shown you recently on the show. And this is within the last couple of weeks after the killing of Renee Good. And as I talked about on our show on Friday, the New York Times and others reporting that she still still had a pulse, a faint pulse on the scene when a doctor showed up after she was shot in the face and chest, said, I would like to help. And I said, no, stand back, sir, we don't want you to do that. And then she dies. It seems to me that an independent investigation should occur, that the state of Minnesota should have the ability to investigate that the state of Minnesota should have the ability to investigate where their ICE went overboard and pulled that man, that, that man from the Hmong community out of his house in his boxer shorts in sub zero windshield temperature. I mean, this is the, this is the story of the Times emergency call transcripts about the Renee Good case. It said that she still had a pulse. But Stephen Miller and J.D. vance say that these agents have absolute immunity, that they can't be touched by law enforcement, that they can do whatever they want, which is not true. At least it wasn't true up until this point in this country. And so it seems to me that crimes are being committed in broad daylight, not by members of the Minneapolis St. Paul community, but by our own government, by agents and officers of ice. And you have the, the head of the cbp, Greg Bevino, swanning around in Nazi like clothing. Does anybody know what the hell is going on in this country? This is some sick stuff, folks. What is the head of the CBP doing dressed up like a Nazi? Can somebody answer that question for me? And so it does seem to me that we have some big problems in this country. One of the problems that I talked about on the show with, with Jennifer Welch, and you can find it on her. I've had a podcast YouTube page or you. I put it on mine as well, is that Donald Trump was given a blank check by the Supreme Court. He was told that he is above the law. And he is acting like it, ladies and gentlemen. He is acting like it.
- [55:35]
C
It.
- [55:36]
A
He said he was only going to be a dictator on day one. That was definitely not the case. You could throw that out the window. He's been acting like that ever since. And ICE and the Department of Homeland Security are, are both behaving as if there are no checks on their authority, that there are no checks on what they can do, that they can grab people out of their homes despite being a citizen, despite having constitutional rights and their civil rights can be abused without any kind of punishment or accountability whatsoever. It flows down from the top. And so it seems to me that, yes, ELON Musk, yes, there needs to be accountability in this country. Look what you did with Doge. You went, you, you went through like a bull in a china shop, all of these federal agencies and departments. You hoovered up all the personal data of all these Americans around the country, and then you waltzed off to do God knows what with that information. You closed agencies like usaid, you closed other important agencies of the federal government without any say whatsoever from the Congress. And yes, that may be, I suppose that could be argued out in front of the courts, and it may be the purview of, of the executive branch to, to do some of these things. But, Elon, we're not talking about putting you in jail. I mean, unless there's something we don't know about. What we're talking about is what is taking place in Minneapolis right now. That an agent of ICE can go out and murder in cold blood, an American citizen can shoot her in the face, and that the federal government can say after the fact that there is no accountability, that that officer has absolute immunity. The American people aren't going to tolerate that. And that is why there are people, good, good Americans from both sides of the aisle who are saying that, yes, there needs to be an era of accountability. ELON Musk There needs to be an era of accountability after the departure of Donald Trump from this scene. As much as Democrats these days are talking about affordability, there needs to be a lot more talk, it seems to me, about accountability and how do we get there. And so I stand by my comments. I stand by the, the comment that it is very likely the Supreme Court will have to be expanded to, to accommodate other justices so the, the John Roberts immunity decision can be thrown out. It is an abomination. It is anti democratic. It is anti constitutional. It is unconstitutional. It is un American to think that a president is above the law. That a president can act with any kind of checks on his power in an unchecked way. That is not who we are. That is not America. That is not the Constitution. That is not what the founders intended. Donald Trump incited an insurrection on January 6th. That case was proceeding under Jack Smith and it was blown up by the Supreme Court. Does that mean that Donald Trump is allowed to incite other insurrections? That he's, that he's again allowed to try to subvert the elections of this country coming up in the midterms this fall with no accountability? Is that the kind of country that we want it's the kind of country that Elon Musk wants, it seems to me. But Elon Musk, this is not South Africa. This is not apartheid. This is America. And the year is 2026. And I say let the era of accountability begin. My thanks to Stuart Stevens, my thanks to Elliot Williams. My thanks to all of you for watching. Don't forget to support independent media by subscribing to this program. Consider becoming a paid subscriber. You can do that on either substack or on YouTube. And it means a lot, means a whole lot to the team here. It helps us do what we do every day. And I'll be talking about that more in the coming days. One other quick little plug. I'll be at the Howard theater in Washington, D.C. with Mehdi Hassan and Joy Reid on on Tuesday, the anniversary of Trump coming back into power. I, I don't use, I shouldn't use the word anniversary. It's not a, it's not a joyful, not a joyful thing. But it is one year since he came back into power and we are having a big discussion in front of a big audience there at the Howard Theater in D.C. if you want to get tickets, I have put out some posts to that effect where you can find that information. So join us if you can. It should be a great conversation. But in the meantime, still reporting from Washington, I'm Jim Acosta. One final thing before we go. One final thing before we go. I want to show you what the Nobel Peace Prize committee tweeted out earlier today. They tweeted out a video of Martin Luther King, somebody who did win the Nobel Peace Prize and earned it, and some of his comments when he accepted that award. We'll play that out as we say goodbye on this Martin Luther King Day. Thanks for watching. To accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war, that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality.