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- [00:00]
Jim Acosta
Well, welcome, everybody, to the Jim Acosta Show. We are still asking the question, where are the Epstein files? I am so pleased that the great historian Heather Cox Richardson is with me today. We need to end the week with a look at the big picture. I think, yes, Trump is overwhelming us with the lies and the scandals and the corruption and the attacks on democracy. But I think Heather can explain how this country has a tradition of enduring and overcoming some of these enormous challenges. And a little later, I'll speak with Ezra Levin about his group Indivisible and how they're basically trying to channel the TV show, the hit TV show andor these days. But we'll talk about that in a little bit. But first of all, hi, Heather. Great to talk to you in person, or kind of in person.
- [00:40]
Heather Cox Richardson
It's a pleasure. I'm really looking forward to it, Jim, thanks for having me.
- [00:44]
Jim Acosta
You know, Absolutely. And I guess, you know, one of the things I wanted to, just to start off the conversation, I was really happy to see you wrote about the late congressman and civil rights pioneer John Lewis and your letters from an American substack yesterday. This was on the fifth year, I guess, since Lewis died from cancer. And you wrote, quote, today. As the storm over the release of the Epstein files became a maelstrom, the American people rallied at more than 1500 sites nationwide to protest the Trump administration in a day of action to honor Representative Lewis. Organizers of the Good Trouble Lives On Day of Action vowed to take it to the streets, courthouses, community spaces to carry forward his fight for justice, voting rights, and dignity for all. And I love that you quoted him here. He says, this is Representative Lewis once telling an audience, my philosophy is very simple. When you see something that is not right, not fair, not just say something, do something, get in trouble, good trouble, necessary trouble. Heather, people are exhausted right now, but I think the message that you have there is just so very perfect for this moment.
- [01:48]
Heather Cox Richardson
I was determined yesterday not to follow the Trump train. That is so much of our lives these days seems to be constrained by watching what the next thing is that Trump or his administration are going to do. And the problem with that, as you well know, is that if you let somebody else define the world you live in, you are living in the their world. And, you know, that's one thing that I think Representative Lewis would have spoken up about and said, you know, we do have to take into consideration what the administration is doing, of course, but we must not let it define us or what this nation is. And so it was a really funny coincidence. That it was the fifth anniversary of his passing at the same day that we had that extraordinary story dropping from the Wall Street Journal. And that story I knew would keep while it seemed like an important time to honor Representative Lewis.
- [02:39]
Jim Acosta
No, absolutely. And, you know, just to get into the Epstein story, you know, part of the issue that I have in all of this is obviously, and I'm sure you've picked up on this as well as they promised over and over again, people as administration who were beating the drum during the election and even before that about they're going to release the Epstein files, they're going to get to the bottom of this. And now, of course, they appear to be sweeping it under the rug. And yesterday, I mean, with that bombshell in the Wall Street Journal, you know, one of, you know, Trump's comments to all of this was that he doesn't draw pictures. You know, he doesn't doodle. And my thought to that was, next they're gonna tell us he doesn't tweet. You know, I mean, it's sort of just. It's kind of, you know, obnoxious and insulting to our intelligence a little bit to think that we would all just accept his lies about this being a hoax and so on.
- [03:27]
Heather Cox Richardson
It is. And, you know, one of the things about the Epstein story that I think has served the administration well, or at least has served Donald Trump well, is that it's a really confusing story. There's a lot of. And a lot of vagueness and a lot of fog. And, you know, Epstein was first charged with State Crimes in 2005. I think it was. Maybe it was 2006. He served 13 months, I think it was, and got away from federal charges in that case. And then it turned out that the U.S. attorney who gave him the sweetheart deal was Alex Acosta, who ended up in the Labor Department under Donald Trump in his first term. And then there's the 2019 charges. There's so much stuff going on. It feels like it was always sort of in the water, but people weren't paying attention to the line of the story and to who might be involved. And then, of course, when you layered QAnon on top of that, which was designing to portray Trump as the hero in a fight against sex trafficking, I think a lot of people weren't really on top of what was happening. And now, of course, this really straight story, that straight line of a story that has come out since Elon Musk put on X that Trump was in the Epstein files, has suddenly set this on fire in A way that I did not expect ever to see it again. How about you?
- [04:47]
Jim Acosta
No, I mean, I completely agree with you, but as soon as the Department of Justice put out that memo. What was it, two weeks ago on Sunday, trying to sweep it under the rug, I immediately said, this is gonna be a huge story because I've covered him for so many years. I've been with him up close, and I knew that the MAGA faithful was just not gonna go for that. They just weren't gonna fall for it because they've been demanding this for years now. And then the way he blew up at that reporter in the Cabinet meeting, what was it, a week ago Tuesday? I said, well, that's interesting. I've been around him, and I know when he's worried about stuff. And he just flat out blew up at that reporter. And ever since then, it's been a comedy of errors. He's been trying to call it a hoax and so on, and he just has a record of behavior, particularly when it comes to his treatment that. I mean, there's a pattern. I'm sorry, you know, was Access Hollywood a hoax? I mean, come on. You know, we may be crazy, but we're not stupid.
- [05:46]
Heather Cox Richardson
Well, one of the things that I wonder about, though, is that one of the reasons that it seems to me it's taking off now and it didn't before, is that a lot of MAGA believers were already unhappy with him this time around in a number of ways. But they were things like the bombing of Iran, or they were things like the tariffs, or they were things like the ice sweeps and all against people who are undocumented but have never been charged, let alone convicted of a crime. And the problem with turning against him on all of those fronts is that those are issues that have been pushed by people who were not maga. This is coming from within MAGA itself. So to me, it sort of feels like this gives MAGA a focal point for anger that was already there. And then, of course, the push that is coming from it is redefining Trump, as you say. I have a question for you. Why do you think they came out yesterday with the statement that he is not in good health? Because, of course, this administration has always said he was Superman, and, you know, he was right. And now they volunteer.
- [06:46]
Jim Acosta
Yeah, that's right. Just the other day, he was soaring through the sky like Superman. And, yeah, you know, I think it's interesting. I think that they've been trying to dangle a lot of different distractions out there. They think of it as catnip for the media. And so they probably saw some of the social media stuff about his hand with the makeup on the hand and the swollen ankles and thought, okay, here's something we can put out there. It's sort of like his threat to denaturalize Rosie O's. O'. Donnell. I now have a Rosie rule, as I call it. Anytime he goes after Rosie o', Donnell, he must be in a lot of trouble. And so my sense of it is, is that. And this is part of the reason why I think they're in some trouble, this notion that they're able to just change the media narrative by putting some catnip out there and getting us to chase the bright, shiny object somewhere else. It's just not working. And it's certainly not working with Maga. I mean, first they were going after Pam Bondi. You know, they were trying to make her the scapegoat in all of this. And my question to that was, you know, do we really think she was putting out this Department of Justice memo without any, you know, kind of pressure from the White House, any direction from the White House? And then last night, Trump puts out on Truth Social. I hereby command Pam Bondi to release, you know, these pertinent files from the grand jury discussions that were going on in relation to the Jeffrey Epstein case. So it's okay. So maybe they weren't. So they're trying to say they weren't directing Pam Bondi before, and now that now Trump is putting out this edict. It just doesn't add up. And I don't think it's gonna add up for his base.
- [08:17]
Heather Cox Richardson
Well, you need to have that base willing to be convinced. And I think that they are no longer willing to be convinced, in part because of the other things that they're upset about. But that, as I say, this gives them a different kind of an off ramp than they had over things like the bombing of Iran.
- [08:33]
Jim Acosta
Yeah, no, there's no question. And he gets to decide. They get to decide what's pertinent. I mean, come on, this is not going to make the story go away. So, I mean, they'll, they'll continue to try to do that. But, you know, you brought up ice, and, you know, not that I want to move off the subject of Epstein and move on to other things, which is probably what the White House wants. But, you know, these ICE raids, to me, and it's one of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you, Heather, it is probably one of the most, if not the most UN American thing he has done since coming back into office. These sort of masked, no due process raids that have been just putting a lot of terror and fear in the hearts of these migrant communities. What's been your sense of it, watching this? I mean, just today we learned that they're gonna turn over Medicaid information to ice. I'm old enough to remember when conservatives would be upset about invasions of private privacy. But your thoughts?
- [09:28]
Heather Cox Richardson
Well, my thoughts are these. First of all, while they are putting terror into the hearts of undocumented migrants and sometimes documented migrants who have suddenly found themselves undocumented when the rules changed, it seems to me that they are following the classic authoritarian plan of going after a marginalized population in order to put terror into the hearts of the local population in general. So that is, these are demonstrations designed in, yes, to hurt migrants, but also to convince Americans that Trump is all powerful. And I think that's a really important piece that ties together both the ICE raids with the story of Epstein. And the thing that is really sticking in my craw today is the declaration that the government is trying to get. I think it's one day in prison for the man who shot Breonna Taylor. You know, I wonder how other people feel about that. The death of Breonna Taylor hit me really hard. She is almost exactly the same age as one of my children, and I could and can imagine her sitting around the kitchen table like those kids did for years. And to see her murdered like that, you know, I'm not getting over that in a hurry. And I suspect there's a lot of people who feel the same way. But all of those things, the idea that you can kill somebody and the punishment is a day in prison, or that you can round up people without due process and throw them into literal cages in the Everglades, one of them a 15 year old boy, or the idea that a bunch of really rich old guys can rape children, you know, young girls, and laugh about it, draw the sorts of things that we understand from the Wall Street Journal article last night that Trump did in that BIR book for Jeffrey Epstein. What that says to me, weirdly, is it harks me back to, honestly, the 1850s, the idea of a group of elite Southern enslavers, that they were better than everybody else, that the rest of the world is, if you don't mind me jumping to the present, a non playing character. And you don't have to care about their feelings, you don't have to care about what they love. You don't have to care about making sure they get food. You don't have to care about their safety because you're just that much better than they are. You have rights and privileges that they don't. They don't have any. They all depend on you. And so when you, When I think of Epstein and the circle of people around Epstein, I see the attacks on enslaved young girls and enslaved women in the 1850s in the American South. And that's a really important piece in this moment, because as you, you know, as you keep hearing from me, there's two ways to look at the world. Either you believe everybody is equal and has a right to a say in their government and to be treated equally before the law, or you believe that some people are better than others and have the right to rule. And this is such a quintessential example of the idea that some people are better than others, do not have to answer to the law, can do whatever they want and get to rule the rest of us. I'm hoping that this Epstein scandal will really make people understand that this is not just about sex. It's not just about getting away with breaking the law. It's about a group of people whose mindset is that they get to do whatever they want and the rest of us have to live with it.
- [13:03]
Jim Acosta
No, there's no question about it, Heather. You're absolutely right. And we have seen, I mean, some very powerful people implicated in all of this. And I mean, to me, I thought that's what MAGA wanted. They wanted to see some very prominent figures who they, I mean, they might have thought they were all Democrats held to account in all of this. And now that it's hit closer to home and we're seeing the latest of this in this explosive Wall Street Journal story, they're a little nervous about it. But I think you're absolutely right. I think this is about Trump and people like him trying to escape accountability. The rest of us have accountability, but he and his posse, they seem to think they have no accountability to worry about. And one of the things that concerns me that we've seen in just the last week to tie another strand to all of this is this nomination of his former defense attorney, Emile Beauvais, to the federal bench, a move that is seen by a lot of people as positioning him for the Supreme Court. And it makes absolute sense that Trump, if he loses a Justice Thomas or Justice Alito, would want another ace in the hole on the Supreme Court. And I just wonder what you think about all of this, Heather, because to me, the Supreme Court, and I think its utter failure in, you know, I guess, providing that bulwark as one of the checks and balances. I mean, the Roberts court has essentially said the president should be more powerful than the other two branches of government. The president should have immunity for just about anything that he does. And it seems to me if he gets Emile Beauvais on the Supreme Court, he's gonna have a justice there who feels the same way.
- [14:37]
Heather Cox Richardson
Yes, and I think the Supreme Court has said something a little bit more than that. They have certainly centered power in the executive branch. Alth what they have done is to say that the power should be in the executive branch. But we, the Supreme Court, get to decide what use of that power is legitimate and what is not. What they're essentially doing is setting themselves up and remembering that they are completely insulated from any kind of pushback from voters. That's a little bit of a different thing. It sets up these extreme right wing, in many cases, evangelical Christian justices as the ultimate word for what American democracy means. And it is terrifying when you think about the federal courts lower down have been deciding whether or not they were appointed by Republican presidents or by Democratic presidents, have been siding against the administration overwhelmingly. The Supreme Court has been deciding in favor of the administration about, I think it's 77% of the time. So that's something obviously that we're gonna have to deal with. But I wanna throw something else into the mix here that I'm afraid we may not be paying enough attention to, and that is the President and his family's reliance on cryptocurrency to repair their fortune. Because one of the things that we look at as historians is financial manipulation in terms of people making a lot of money, but also in terms of the health of a society. And this is on my mind a lot, not just because of the things that are going into place through Congress, but also through the White House to promote the use of cryptocurrency. The realization we know from people like Zach Everson at Forbes that Trump's finances were in really bad shape after his first term, but that he has recouped them through the different machinations he's gone through with crypto. But one of the things that I look at and that I'm worried about because I do care a lot about finances, is generally in American history in the summer, people do not think about financial markets generally. They start to pay attention again in September and things hit the fan in October. So I'm sitting here looking at the fact that we're starting to see inflation going back up because of the tariffs are starting to kick in. We're starting to see new legislation about cryptocurrency. And we're certainly listening to Trump talking about getting rid of Jerome Powell at the Federal Reserve, which would be a huge way of making people lose their faith in the American currency. And I'm thinking this is again a part of that story of some people get to call all the shots and the rest of us are running along behind, you know, just trying to repair the damage that they're doing. What do you think about that?
- [17:27]
Jim Acosta
Well, I mean, I think you're absolutely right that that is a major concern. And it's, it's a very undercovered story in all of this because we all are all up against this fire hose of craziness on a daily basis with his administration. But it takes me back to what the Trump people and the MAGA people used to say when Joe Biden was in office, they were talking about the Biden crime family and how Biden and Burisma and Ukraine and how they were lining their pockets and how did Joe Biden make all this money as president and so on and being in politics for all these years, why does he have these nice houses and all of this stuff? And it just strikes me as, again, another one of these instances where for Trump, it's usually an accusation, is usually projection. And to me it's kind of stunning. I mean, I covered Donald Trump as a White House correspondent during the first administration and we thought, okay, when there were some shakes staying at the Trump hotel in Washington D.C. that was a big deal. You know, what's going on here? What's with this money? You know, what about the emoluments clause and so on? The emoluments clause might as well be just cut right out of the Constitution with a pair of gold plated Trump scissors. Because at this point, nobody seems to care. It's not being enforced. And he and his family can just line their pockets from here to Timbuktu, getting planes from the Qataris and so on, and nobody just bats an eye anymore. Because that's one of the problems with Donald Trump in this era that we're in right now. He has worn down the notions of what is normal, what is allowable and what is legal. And to me, I wonder what you think about all of this, Heather. How do we get these institutions back to a place where he can be held accountable, where the Constitution does matter? Because it seems to me, I used to call it the Catch me if you can. Presidency. To me, this is sort of, you're never gonna catch me because I'm Donald Trump.
- [19:27]
Heather Cox Richardson
Well, here's the way I think about it. First of all, Trump is a 79 year old man who is not in good health, either physically or mentally. I'm not sure he is ultimately the person that we're gonna have to worry about most. We know that in the White House there are certainly reports that it's really Stephen Miller who's wielding the power there and in foreign affairs, that it is Elbridge Colby in the Pentagon, a deputy for policy in the Pentagon. You know, we're gonna have to demand it. The American people are gonna have to demand it. And we've done that in the past. We have certainly brought people to justice after it seemed like that couldn't have happened, and we certainly have turned the nation around after it seemed like we had lost democracy. But while I have you, I have to ask you a question.
- [20:10]
Jim Acosta
Yeah, please.
- [20:12]
Heather Cox Richardson
You know, one of the things that's a real problem for me, a real problem for me is that I try and cover the news in 1200 words every day. And at this point I'm going at least to 1500, which is too long for people with my attention span to read anyway. But don't you feel like the amount of stuff that is coming at us is unprecedented? That is, you know, I've written a book on the freaking Civil War and there was less news in that period every day than there is now. Am I accurate? And if so, how do we survive this?
- [20:53]
Jim Acosta
I mean, that was one of the questions I had for you, Heather. So maybe we can not to dodge the question here. I mean, I started writing about something on this very subject earlier today, and I'm gonna, I think I'm gonna post it either tonight or tomorrow. And because somebody asked me this question, one of my colleagues asked me this question back during the first Trump presidency. And my response to all of this is, we're just gonna have to outlast this, this current moment, and we're just gonna have to find it in ourselves to outlast this current moment. You know, thinking back to the conversation that we were having at the beginning of this about John Lewis, you know, you, you think we're exhausted. We're, you know, you think we're fed up, that we're tired of the fire hose of falsehoods and lies and, and bullshit. My God, you know, what were they going through? How exhausted could John Lewis get before he would throw his hands up and wonder Are we ever gonna win this thing? Are we ever gonna get. Get to a place where we're gonna be treated equally in this country? And I think some of it does have to do with good trouble. And I was a bit of a troublemaker in my days as a White House correspondent. At least I was perceived as such, because I'd like to ask the tough questions. And I think we just keep at it. I honestly think that's just what it is. And, yeah, we're gonna have to it keep. You know, when. When you fall, Heather, I gotta come over and pick you up, and when I fall, you gotta come over and pick me up. And I think that's how we get through this thing. I really do. I tell people all the time, you know, I'm not so much worried about Trump derangement syndrome as I'm worried about Trump Depression syndrome, that people can get so down in the dumps and so depressed about our current state of affairs that they think, oh, we're just never gonna get through this. I think that's. That's just giving up way too easily. But what do you think?
- [22:43]
Heather Cox Richardson
Well, my issue is more. I agree with that, you know, because if you think about, you know, one of the things that I always think about is the people who lived through any of the wars, But World War II, especially, you know, in 1943, it didn't necessarily look like the Allies were gonna win World War II, and certainly as late as 1864, Abraham Lincoln thought he was gonna lose the 1864 election and the country was gonna be divided in half. We do not know what the future is. One of the reasons I always say I will not predict the future, because you just don't know. All you can do is keep putting one foot in front of the other and trying to do the right thing. What I think I was trying to specify was a little bit different than that, though, and that's that if you only have 30 minutes or 1500 words to say what is important, how do you decide what are the stories you cover? So I try and sit there and say, what's gonna be important in 150 years? But how do you judge what to tell people?
- [23:43]
Jim Acosta
Well, I tell you, to me, I think you have to take this one bite at a time. I don't think you can. I don't think the snake can swallow the bowling ball in one gulp. I think it just. You have to be, I think, strategic about this. And so the last couple of weeks, I've spent a lot of time on Epstein Because I think it goes right to the very heart of, of Donald Trump's currency as a politician in this moment. He has trafficked in conspiracy theories to great effect, and it's served him well. But it's now kind of biting me in the butt right now. And I think it's worth really spending a lot of time on that particular subject. But in previous weeks, I spent a lot of time on these ICE raids. I was on this show not too long ago saying, we need a million Latino march in this country, you know, to really put the heat and put the pressure on Donald Trump over these ICE raids. And so I think that's part of it. You know, the thing that I've been talking about a lot, Heather, and I would love to get your take on this. I mean, this news that just came out in the last 24 hours, that they're gonna cut a billion dollars out of public broadcasting. It's been estimated that perhaps one in five NPR stations could go under because of this. I've been to all 50 states covering politics, and I can tell you there are a lot of far flung places that really rely and depend upon those NPR stations. And what do they have as an alternative in many of these markets? Talk radio stations that put out just garbage things like Sean Hannity or what used to be the Rush Limbaugh Show. And it's part of the reason why we have a very. And if you put in Fox News in there and what's been happening to the broadcast networks with these bogus Trump lawsuits and bending the knee, we have a very broken and damaged news and information system in this country. And, and the way cbs, you know, essentially gave the ax to Stephen Colbert, then tried to say, oh, it has nothing to do with his content. Come on, give me a break. Nobody. It's sort of like when Trump says the Epstein files are a hoax. Nobody believes that. And so I think, Heather, we, we have to just sort of take these things one at a time. I don't think we can. You know, it's like a dog's breakfast. We can't put it all in one bowl. We just need to take one one day at a time and one topic to some extent at a time. I mean, I was just as fired up about Breonna Taylor as you were. It was just absolute outrage. But I do think we have to be strategic and devote our energies to tackling these big subjects in sort of a piece by piece fashion. Because you're right, if we just try to take it all at once, we're gonna choke on that. On that bowling ball.
- [26:19]
Heather Cox Richardson
So one of the things that I think is really interesting in this moment, though, that gives me hope is, again, something that looks very much like the late 1890s or other periods as well, that while you were seeing these extraordinary attacks on the media across the board, you're also seeing the rise of independent media, which is exactly what we saw in the 1850s and again in the 1890s. And one of the things that I love about that is, first of all, people like you and me are having this conversation from. Where are you?
- [26:49]
Jim Acosta
I'm in Colorado right now.
- [26:51]
Heather Cox Richardson
Oh, yeah.
- [26:52]
Jim Acosta
So I was at the Aspen Security Forum a little bit this week, but mainly I was doing a lot of hiking. Don't tell anybody, but I was doing a lot of hiking. When you're your own boss, you can kind of do your own thing well.
- [27:02]
Heather Cox Richardson
But I think that's a good thing that you can be at the Aspen Security Conference. And I'm on the coast of Maine, and we're able to have this conversation that did not take all of our days in makeup and in getting to the studio and all that sort of thing. And what that is doing is it's enabling us, first of all, to have much deeper conversations. Like, so you've got a number of people writing and doing investigations out there into things like cryptocurrency or into things like the attacks on the public lands, things that would not have shown up on cbs, for example, because they simply didn't have the bandwidth to do it. But you're also getting a lot of new voices. And one of the things that I find hopeful now with those new voices and with the new technologies that enable somebody to set up their own podcast for as little as $150 mic, essentially, is the idea that while we lose the traditional media that we've had, that we have the possibility anyway to encourage local people and different voices to jump into the stream. And when they have done that, as I say, in the 1850s or in the 1890s, that's when we have recovered democracy. So with these attacks on NPR and PBS and with the mainstream media outlets kowtowing, as you say, to the administration, there is room for someone to say, hey, I live in a town of 350 people, and if I get on a microphone once a week to say, hey, they're gonna pave this road. And that's gonna involve putting in a new culvert that if I can get just 100 people to listen to me, that's gonna Change the way this entire community thinks about itself. And so while I am frightened and angry about those things, not really frightened so much as angry. I do hope that people are encouraged enough to say, well, if nobody else is gonna save this democracy, I am. Because that's what I see happening around here.
- [28:56]
Jim Acosta
No, and I think that's why independent media is having this moment right now, because people are looking at, you know, essentially the paying of bribes. I mean, that's what Stephen Colbert called it. He called it a big fat bribe. And they're gravitating to independent media. My goodness. My understanding is you have more subscribers than the Washington Post. I think. Is that's correct.
- [29:15]
Heather Cox Richardson
Well. And I don't know. Cause I don't look at either theirs or mine, but I'm too busy writing. And you jumped, you, as many people have done, left traditional media and jumped straight off into an independent career that took off instantly and gave you far more leeway than you had had.
- [29:33]
Jim Acosta
I'm free. I mean, I feel like I'm free to really just sort of call my own shots and do what I want to do editorially. And I think people say, you know what? I like that guy. I trust him. I remember he would give Trump a hard time. Yeah, let me go and see what he has to do over there. Let me see what he's saying over there. And I think they're doing exactly the same thing with you, Heather, by leaps and bounds. But I take the CBS thing personally, I will say, because even though I'm more associated with being an old CNN guy, I started my career at CBS News, and I started there when Dan Rather was still the anchor of the CBS Evening News. And one of the highest compliments I ever got was when he turned around from the anchor desk one day and said, nice story, Jim. And that was like. That was the biggest. That was one of the biggest moments of my entire life, I have to say. Obviously, the birth of my children would be above that. But Dan Rather praising me, that was pretty darn close. That was cool.
- [30:27]
Heather Cox Richardson
Professional life. Professional life.
- [30:28]
Jim Acosta
Professional life, exactly. And I think about what CBS used to be. Walter Cronkite, you know, who used to say that a free press is not important to democracy, it is democracy. And, you know, when you think about Edward R. Murrow, my goodness, the hit play on Broadway this past season was Good Night and Good Luck about Edward R. Murrow going after Senator McCarthy. That's what people want. That's what people want from CBS. Not paying bogus lawsuit settlements and firing Stephen Colbert. My God, what has happened to you people? What is going on with Sherrie Redstone and the people at Paramount? How can they do that to this country? I mean, that's my personal feeling. And it's become like a virus. It's become infectious inside the corporate media. And I think because of that, the folks at home are too smart now. You know, when I used to work in local news, we didn't have the Internet, we didn't have email and all that stuff. And, you know, people would have to call the station to register their complaint. And I would be on the assignment desk and I'd answer the phone and I'd listen to somebody complain about what they saw on the news. These days, they can just go right on social media and say exactly how they feel. They can start their own substack. They can do whatever they want. The process has been too democratized for people to think, oh, we can just pull. For corporate executives think, oh, we can just pull the wool over their eyes and tell them that firing Stephen Colbert has nothing to do with the content. We're just not going to believe that stuff. And I think that's why independent. It's part of the reason why independent media is booming.
- [32:00]
Heather Cox Richardson
Well, in a way, we're going forward to the past, if you will, because one of the concerns I've had about media now for a while has been that it is so heavily capitalized and that it really does have to take its marching orders from the people who are doing the big deals. And that, of course, the $16 million you're referencing is a pittance compared to the deal that CBS is desperate to make that they were afraid that the Trump administration would stop. But journalism was never about making money. Journalism was always about spreading ideas and making sure people understood what was happening around them. So when I think about what we are doing, what people are doing on substack or on YouTube or on even TikTok and Instagram and so on. Funnily enough, I see the kinds of people like Horace Greeley, who started the New York Daily Tribune, or, you know, the people who started the newspapers in the 1850s, like Joseph Medill and the Chicago Tribune, where they saw a real problem in society and they figured that they had to change it. So they started with these little dinky printing presses and they just informed people of what was there and how they saw the world, and that became the Chicago Tribune. And, you know, with the New York Times is 1851. Those became the things that we now see as legacy media. But we're essentially doing the same thing where people are saying, you know, I desperately care about reproductive rights. I'm gonna write about this. And that those new voices and that new assertion of a reality based community, it not only gives me hope in the present, it has such a long tradition in American history. It's really exciting, I think, to be part of it.
- [33:37]
Jim Acosta
No, there's no question about it. And I think what you're seeing in independent media right now is partly fueled by what Ezra and the folks over at Indivisible have had some success with, this notion that there are no kings in this country. And it ties back to what you were saying earlier in this conversation, Heather, about a bunch of guys who think that they're above the law, who think they can behave like kings, who aren't accountable to the people in the Epstein files case. And I think that's fueling this too. I think there's just a real frustration with institutions in this country and the media are one of those institutions that people are frustrated with. The question I have is how do we bind together? I've been calling it sort of a NATO alliance for the truth. How do we bind together some of these forces for truth, for democracy, for penetrating the lies and the BS coming out of the White House and so on and harnessing it in a way that it has. And I think we're all having an impact. I think you're having a tremendous impact, but almost like in the way that Ted Turner had when he launched CNN back in the early 1980s. How do we really put a real force out on the playing field that changes the game?
- [34:53]
Heather Cox Richardson
So I'm gonna make a suggestion that I've never tried with anyone before and that is if you think about Ted Turner and you think about the sort of game changing moments that you're talking about, the blockbuster movie hits and so on those date really from the late 70s into the 1980s with the rise of this idea of individualism as the driving force of American society. The Reagan revolution and Star wars movies. Greed is good. You know, all those moments that defined those 40 years that I think we are now seeing the very toxic version of. But I think it's not unreasonable to argue that what you and I are doing in this conversation, but what a lot of us are doing as we are cross pollinating on smaller platforms around each other, is to create a news community so that we don't really need the blockbuster person, we don't really need the brand new film. Although I understand Superman is doing a lot for us in that front, but we don't need that so much as we need to reinforce the idea of agency for people. And we are certainly taking agency seriously within the stuff we're doing, but also creating a web of information as opposed to that giant set of headlights. And that's one of the reasons I always mention people by name in my substack. So and so got a story. So and so reported this because I don't want to make it look like it's just me springing from the head of Zeus that we are a community doing that. And the more we build that web, I think the more powerful we are, because then when we lose somebody, as we inevitably will to one thing or another, there's plenty of people to take their places. Whereas if you think about the extraordinary loss of somebody like Bill Moyers in his era that, you know, he was Bill Moyers. You can't replace him. Yes, he was. You can't replace him. But the truth is, if there are 200 of us doing it, you can replace us. And that's really what's best for the country.
- [36:55]
Jim Acosta
No, and you mentioned Bill Moyers, and I'm gonna try not to get a little emotional here, but you're bringing me back to my love for public broadcasting and pbs. You know, I was raised by a single mom. We didn't have a lot of money, we didn't have cable tv, but I had public broadcasting. And when I came home from school, you know, I could watch the Electric Company and the Amazing spider man and Mr. Rogers. And it just. And Bill Moyers was just such a gem on public broadcasting. His show, his very pro democracy. He was sort of the OG pro democracy guy in broadcasting, you know, in a large way, and the way he brought it to the masses. And I remember when he wrote, when Donald Trump first got elected, farewell, America. And I. And I thought to myself, I respect Bill Moyer so much. Gosh, I hope he's not right about that, that this is somehow the end of our country as we know it. But right now, we don't know the answer to that question that Moyers put out there. But I just always thought so highly of him and the way he was able on public broadcasting, able to call attention to things like public corruption and forces big and small that were a threat to our democracy. And it worries me a great deal what's happening to public broadcasting right now. And maybe just it's the old broadcaster in me, I don't know. But I love your expression, news community, because maybe that's what we need right now, because we're bringing. I mean, you're seeing all the comments flowing in right now. People are just drawn to this.
- [38:30]
Heather Cox Richardson
It's a different. My point is that we're in a different moment than we were 40 years ago. And if you'll excuse me, the entire vibe is different. We don't need a superhero in 2025. We need a community that works together in which, you know, we are not. None of us is trying to be, you know, the big person, the person in the headlights, the person who is driving things. We're all trying to work together. And that, I think, is this moment. The idea of fairness, the idea of community, the idea of working together to make the country better. That's what we. In the 18. I'm sorry, 1930s, 1940s, 1950s, 1960s. That's what got overturned in the 70s and then into the 80s. And that seems to me what we are trying to reclaim in this moment. And with luck, we will do it better than we have done it in the past so that people like you and me. And I love your reference to Bill as sort of this great democracy hero, because I think if you dug down a little bit, you would find that he has been behind a lot of us. He was instrumental in giving me the faith to do what I do. Love the man. And I bet I'm not the only one. I know you're not the only one. And maybe that's how we change the world, is that we try and make differences in little ways with individuals, and it all adds up. It certainly feels truer in this moment than somebody like Donald Trump saying, I am the greatest. I am the only one who can fit, fix it. I am the be all and end all. It feels more powerful to say, we can overcome you.
- [40:10]
Jim Acosta
Yeah, there's no question about it. And I'm thinking back right now to when I jumped on Substack and when I left my old place. I got an email from Dan. I got an email from Sam Donaldson. And it is kind of about this, paying it forward, making sure that the younger folks who are not that I'm not. Not. I'm not that young, but the folks who are coming behind us, that they. They know that. That you can keep charging as. As Donaldson has told me. And that's. And I think you're absolutely right. I think it's. It's. I think having some faith in the audience. It's having faith in somebody like I have in. In you and others who are kind of in this movement, I think we know that the cause comes first. We know that what's right comes first. And I just think we have to keep driving that forward.
- [41:04]
Heather Cox Richardson
There was a great article yesterday where somebody said, or maybe it was a comment on social media, that one of the great problems we've had in this country for a while is underestimating the intelligence and ability of the American people. And I'm from rural Maine and my husband didn't go to college. I'm 100% behind that idea that people are able to understand a lot more than we have tended to give them credit for. And you seeing it all around where people are really getting engaged in stuff, and that doesn't mean we have to agree. We're not gonna agree. That's part of democracy. But, you know, for all that, we started out sort of being like, oh, my God, what's going on? But for all you, you know, if you think of the longer picture here, it's kind of a moment of American renewal in general. And I find that. I find it very exciting to be able to put my mark on that rather than simply fighting a holding action the way I did for the past 40 years.
- [41:59]
Jim Acosta
Yeah. Well, Heather Cox Richardson, I really appreciate this conversation. You are a national treasure, as we're seeing in the comments, and I hope we can continue this conversation. Keep it going. You've been so generous with your time today. I really appreciate it. I'm so glad. I don't feel like we covered all the ground that I wanted to cover, but that just means I want to do this again.
- [42:18]
Heather Cox Richardson
We'll do it again.
- [42:19]
Jim Acosta
Okay, Sounds good. As soon as possible. Thanks, Heather. Really appreciate it.
- [42:22]
Heather Cox Richardson
Take care. Thanks for having me as well.
- [42:24]
Jim Acosta
The great Heather Cox Richardson, My goodness. Just absolutely, like I said, a national treasure. I want to quickly go to Ezra Levin because Ezra's been patiently waiting and, you know, I think the world of him, too. And the folks over at Indivisible because of what they were able to pull off with those no Kings protests, it was just absolutely phenomenal. And the reason why we're talking to Ezra today is if I can get this darn doohickey to work here. Hang on just a second, folks. Did I get it right? Yes, I got it right. There we go. Is the latest thing that Indivisible is doing, and this is near and dear to my heart, is they're channeling Star wars and they are bringing in the andor community. And this may be. Are you the Diego Luna? Are you the andor of this initiative? Are you as big a Star wars geek as I am? What's going on here? Ezra, great to see you. Thanks for being patient. I was having this great conversation with Heather Cox Richardson, and I was starting to get a little emotional and stuff, and I was like, I can't just stop the conversation, but I want to come full circle here, because this andor initiative that you guys have is absolutely phenomenal. I love the idea.
- [43:44]
Ezra Levin
Well, so. And I was watching the interview with Heather. Heather is a national treasure, and you touched on a lot that is not just about American history. It's not just about the present moment, but is directly connected to Andor. And here's what I would say. I like Star Wars. I'm not a super Star wars fan. And one of the challenges of watching this show has been trying to convince friends and family members and colleagues that you don't have to love Star Wars. You don't have to be a sci fi geek. You can just care about incredible writing and incredible storytelling and art that touches on what it means to be up against authoritarianism and how effective resistance works. And this is how I would think about Andor. I, I. This, this is a big thing to say. I think Andor is the best political drama in TV since the Wire. Full stop.
- [44:35]
Jim Acosta
I totally agree with you.
- [44:36]
Ezra Levin
Full stop.
- [44:38]
Jim Acosta
I totally agree with you. And I love that you guys are picking up on this during the no Kings protest, that there were these Andor fans out there, and you would see in social media people having these conversations and drawing it back to Andor. I was having these conversations on my show with people I watch a lot. Leon, he's a big Star wars guy. He's got the Millennium Falcon behind him on his set. I'm a huge Star wars geek. I grew up with it. I remember when my dad took me to see it for the first time when I was a little kid. And I love all these shows, but you're absolutely right. The show Andor is very much about fighting tyranny. It is about going up against an empire that feels like something can't be defeated. And it's about all these individual characters. I don't even think there's a Jedi in the show, but they bring all their abilities, their tools, their capabilities to the table in this big fight, this big struggle.
- [45:33]
Ezra Levin
I was thinking, you know, this is full of great quotes. I was thinking as y' all were talking, you and Heather were talking about just the pace of the news and how quickly the. This empire that we are up against is just committing atrocities. There's a quote in the first season. The pace of their atrocities outstrips our ability to understand it. It's easier to hide behind 40 atrocities than a single instant that that was written on tv, on Disney. And you can watch about, yes, it's in the Star wars universe, but my God, the applicability to current day. And it's not just in the individual quotes, it's in the three dimensional version of the Empire. You get three dimensional characters. You see inside the bureaucracy of the Empire what drives these people, the ideals that you strongly disagree with, but you understand what's driving them to do what they do. And these, I wouldn't call them anti heroes exactly. Reluctant heroes. The central Andor character is a normal person who thinks of himself as basically a victim of galactic events. He exists in a system, he's a nobody. He's not somebody special. He's just some guy trying to get by. But slowly the atrocities of the Empire encroach on his life, on his community, on his family. And reluctantly he says, well, damn it, I guess I've got to do something. And if the first story, if the first season is a story about that rebellions are built on hope, that yes indeed it is possible for the people to come together. The second season, if I had to sum it up, it's courage is contagious. It's courage is contagious. It's that one act of bravery, one act of self sacrifice, one act of somebody getting out of their comfort zone is seen by so many others and it inspires action that ultimately domino after domino falling leads to a democratic resurgence in that case in the Empire. But yeah, I find it incredibly applicable to the current moment. And it's one of the reasons why we've engaged in this kind of fun little campaign to reach out to people who might be watching andor who might not think of themselves as political. Not organizers, not leaders, not activists, but like Andor think that this is a cool show, think that this is entertaining. And what we want to drive home is not only is this a cool show, not only is this entertaining, not only does this feel real in some sense, but you can be part of this same fight. We are living through this now. We are not mere victims of world events. Donald Trump is not an all powerful emperor who is controlling our lives. In fact, he is weak. His empire is fledgling. The wheels are coming off. He is overreaching, is overextended. And if we get together, if we organize, we can win. That's the point of this campaign, to try to pull people in because we're growing. We need to keep growing, and we need to pull people in who do not think of themselves as Jedis, who do not think of themselves as the leaders, as the activists. But I'll tell you, they are central to this fight right now. We need to convince them that they've got a place.
- [48:42]
Jim Acosta
No, you're absolutely right, Ezra. And I love that you quoted Rogue One, which spawned andor the line in that movie, rebellion's a built on hope. That's exactly the case. And I do want to tie it back a little bit to the news right now because it's something that Heather Cox Richardson brought up during our conversation earlier on in the program in that what's at the heart of the Epstein files case. And I mean, I'll say this to you, and I've been saying this to other folks on my show. I used to think the Epstein files were just kind of like a figment of the far right's imagination, and I didn't pay a whole lot of attention to it. And then when it exploded in this big thing and it became apparent that Trump and his people wanted to sweep it under the rug, I said, okay, this is something. There's something going on here. But what Heather Cox Richardson said that is so important is that at the heart of this, it is a bunch of guys who think they're unaccountable, rich and powerful men who think they're unaccountable, who walk around like kings, and who is the largest among them who feels that way. Donald Trump behaves like a king, thinks like a king, thinks that this is never going to catch up with him. And I wonder what you think about that.
- [49:46]
Ezra Levin
I mean, I think that's exactly right. They're not just implementing one of the least popular policy agendas in American history. They're doing it in a way that makes it seem like they don't think they're ever going to face repercussions. They don't believe that they're ever going to lose power, that the voters are ever going to have a say. We see in response to these horrific floods in Texas and the incompetent response from Republican leaders in the state and from the Republican leaders in the federal government, they say, that's not our fault. That's just the weather. That's not us. We're not to blame. We weren't responsible. And instead of engaging after this calamity in a way of contrition, and how can we make this better? What are they doing? They're going through to threaten a mid decade gerrymander to squeeze more Republican states out of Texas so they can hold on to power. That is not an accident. They understand their incompetence is being noticed. They understand their agenda is deeply unpopular. One response to that could be, oh no, we've got to start moderating. We've got to back off. We've got to convince the people that we're not incompetent. That's one possible response. They're going the other direction. They're saying, oh no, people are going to hold us accountable. We can't let that happen. Let's undermine our democratic institutions. Let's consolidate power. Let's prevent the system of government from responding to the people. Let's gerrymander the hell out of Texas so we hold onto the House. Even if there's a wave against us, we can stop that, but we got to organize against it.
- [51:24]
Jim Acosta
Well, and I wonder, that makes me wonder. I mean, no Kings was such a big success on June 14th. I mean, I really changed the landscape in this, the political landscape in this country, I think was changed that day because I think people realize in their collective action that there was hope, that there was a reason to say, okay, this is not just going to fall apart and I can't do anything to stop it. And I wonder, Ezra, are you tempted to, are we going to see more of these events coming to a theater near you, I guess you could say, because I mean, we just saw what yesterday, all of these folks remembering the life of John Lewis. There's just, there's a hunger. It's why people come here to the substack and the independent media. There's just a hunger for this.
- [52:06]
Ezra Levin
People want truth, people want connection. People want to understand how they can participate in the fight for their own communities, for their own families, for their own democracy. We are seeing a level of engagement that we have never seen before, at least since I've been doing this since Indivisible started during the first Trump term when protest was the new brunch and everybody was talking about it. Now we're seeing a level of engagement that is even higher. So we had 2,169 events on no Kings Day. There were five to six million people who came out for no Kings Day. That was one of the largest protests in history. It's also a protest day. It is a day of a protest. So that is a tactic. And the way that you measure the success of, of a day of protest is not just in how huge it is that's part of it, but it's also in what people do afterwards. It's what people do afterwards, how you funnel that energy into productive on the ground work. We held two days ago a training for no Kings Day participants on nonviolent strategic non cooperation. We had 150,000 people register for that training. The experts in authoritarianism, Erica Chenoweth, Maria Steffen, they have told us it is literally the largest training of its sort in history. People are trying to figure out what they do, not just what they can consume, but what they can do. There is a hunger for it and we're showing up. And Jim, you might be frozen, but.
- [53:42]
Jim Acosta
People all out there are not.
- [53:44]
Ezra Levin
They are organizing. They are organized. I hope it's not just me me I'm seeing in the chat, Jim. Jim does appear calm and, and he is considering all this. But I hope people who are watching here, they understand that it is good to watch truth tellers like Jim is important to understand what is actually happening in this country. But this is step one. This is step one is understanding what is out there. Step two is doing something with that information, right? It is saying, where is my community? Maybe you join an indivisible group, maybe you join a local immigrant rights group, maybe you join in some other community group. But the key, key thing to do is take the information you learn and connect with real life people, real life people out there in your community and identify where you have leverage. And so, so I was thrilled with the historic nature of no Kings Day. On no Kings Day. But I am elated to see the number of people who joined on no Kings Day and said, okay, I guess I'm going to go to this training on nonviolent strategic non cooperation. I guess that's what I'm going to do. And to have 150,000 people come out for something like that, incredible.
- [55:01]
Jim Acosta
Ezra, I really appreciate everything that you do. I know everybody else out there appreciates it and I hope I've become unfrozen here and you can hear me again. But, but I can hear you. You know, rebellions are built on hope. So is substack, so is independent media. And you just have to have hope that the WI fi will hold or the cell service will hold. But Ezra, my man, thank you so much for everything. Really appreciate what you do. Hats off to you. What a big success. I'm sure big things are coming down the pike as well. So thanks for your time.
- [55:34]
Ezra Levin
Jim, thank you for covering this. Thank you actually for spreading truth, for puncturing the lies and the bubble that they are trying to present out there. If folks want to get involved, I would just say again, find your local community. Maybe go to indivisible.org and you can get plugged in there. But it doesn't have to be indivisible. The important thing is to find the community where you can start organizing. There are a lot of folks out there looking for community right now. It's there if you look for it. Thank you, Jim.
- [55:59]
Jim Acosta
Awesome. May the force be with you, Ezra. Thank you so much. See you, man. Take care. All right, well, listen, you know, it's a Friday. You know, maybe the Empire is sending some tech gremlins after us. Who knows? But I always appreciate talking to Ezra Levin. And what's amazing now is, you know, seeing, and I'm addressing just the older folks who are on this program watching right now. It's amazing to see younger folks like Ezra and the people over at Indivisible just sort of say, hey, we're gonna do a no Kings thing. And it just explodes in popularity and action. And it really, I do believe that, I really think it changed the political landscape of this year because it just infused a lot of hope and determination and a lot of in millions of people out there that, yes, you can continue to do something in this country. You don't have to succumb, as I was saying to Heather Cox Richardson earlier, you don't have to succumb to Trump Depression syndrome. And if I can just end on that kind of a note this week. I mean, yes, we've been sipping from the fire hose all week. The news of the Epstein files and Trump trying to cover this up and all of those feeble attempts over at the White House to sweep this under the rug, not only did the people on the pro democracy side of things say that's not gonna fly yet, people in his own movement saying that that's not going to fly. But I want to get back to something that Heather Cox Richardson said during my interview with her earlier on. I'm just so pleased and so thankful to her for being so generous with her time. Because I've been talking about whether or not we need some sort of news alliance or alliance for the truth, a NATO alliance for the truth in this country. And I do think that is starting to take shape. But what Heather was talking about is that perhaps some of this has already happened and we're witnessing it in real time, that we're now all a part of a news community and that may be what we need in this country. A News and truth community, maybe it's a truth community to make sure that the powers that be that people like Donald Trump understand that, that calling the Epstein files a hoax, those lies just don't work anymore. We're just not going to accept those lies. And you know, as I said, you know, when I first launched this venture on Substack, don't give into the lies, don't give into fear. That wasn't just a, a line from a guy who maybe is a little too corny at times. I, I really mean it. I really do mean it. And I think that's perhaps at the heart of the community that I have on, on my substack. And I, I'm just so grateful for and I'm just so grateful that there are people like Heather Cox Richardson out there, people like Ezra Levin out there. And one of the reasons why I was excited to pair the two of them together on this show today was not only to get sort of a 30,000foot view of all of the news that we've been been absorbing over the last couple of weeks. I wanted us to think about what we can do to take action, what we can do to make this country a better place, to make the people in power back in Washington understand that we're not going to let you take this nation down the tubes. It's just not going to happen. We're not going to let you do it. And some of that is getting involved in independent media, some of that is getting involved in organizing and being a part of collective actions and movements like the no Kings protest that we saw last month. But I think some of it has to do with just. And I was thinking about this as I was going for a hike the other day and I'm going to write about it for Substack and put it out over the weekend and think about what it means, what I think it means to be an American. And to me, what it means to be an American is to understand that you have, by virtue of being a citizen of this country, you have in you an innate capacity to resist tyranny that is as American as baseball and apple pie and Star Wars. This innate capacity to resist tyranny. And yes, it may feel like sometimes that Donald Trump is just going to get off scot free and he's just going to continue to destroy key institutions in this country. Go after public broadcasting with the meat acts, go after the news media in a way that basically sets the table for state media in this country. I mean, go after all these key institutions with just very little accountability, zero accountability. Republicans aren't holding him accountable. They're just giving him everything that he wants. You have to understand, and this ties back a little bit to what I was talking about with Heather Cox Richardson. You have to understand there are Americans who came before us, who, yes, at times got exhausted, who felt overwhelmed. They didn't give up. They didn't give up. They held onto hope. They understood that rebellions are built on hope. And so with that note, I just want to thank everybody for tuning in this week. I did five shows this week and ended with the great Heather Cox Richardson. Not a bad week, if you don't mind me saying, if I can toot my own horn for a second. But all of this is possible because of everybody who is watching right now. I'm sitting 23,000 people watching right now. That's not because of me. That's because of Heather Cox Richardson. But I will use this moment to say thank you for being a part of my news community, for being part of our news community. And let's keep this thing going. Let's keep charging. Let's hold on to hope. My thanks to Heather Cox Richardson and Ezra Levin and the great people at his organization. Thanks, everybody for watching. Really appreciate it. Still reporting. I'll be back in Washington next week, but right now I'm in Colorado, but still reporting. I'm Jim Acosta. Have a good evening. Have a good weekend. Hold on to hope. See you next week.