ICE Invades Homes in Minneapolis. My discussion with Katie Phang, Justin Wolfers, and Mike Froman.

Summary

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The Jim Acosta Show – Episode Summary

Episode Title: ICE Invades Homes in Minneapolis: My discussion with Katie Phang, Justin Wolfers, and Mike Froman
Date: January 12, 2026
Host: Jim Acosta
Guests: Katie Phang (Legal Expert), Justin Wolfers (Economist), Mike Froman (Former USTR)

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Overview

This episode delivers a searing exploration of two major threads in early 2026 America:

1. ICE's Aggressive Federal Immigration Raids in Minneapolis: Following the killing of Renee Nicole Good by an ICE agent, the Trump administration ramped up federal law enforcement deployments in Minneapolis, leading to widespread outrage, viral videos of raids, and fears about constitutional rights.
2. The Justice Department’s Targeting of Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell: Amid these developments, Trump’s DOJ initiated an investigation into Fed Chair Powell (ostensibly over building renovations), widely seen as an intimidation move—a step toward undermining independent institutions.

Jim Acosta convenes sharp analysis from legal expert Katie Phang, economist Justin Wolfers, and former trade representative Mike Froman to break down the implications for rule of law, civil rights, the U.S. economy, and global standing.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. ICE Raids in Minneapolis: Constitutional Crisis & Political Targeting

Escalation of ICE Operations

• Trump’s administration doubled down after ICE agent Jonathan Ross killed Renee Good, deploying 2,000+ additional federal agents to Minneapolis. Acosta and Phang describe this as an unprecedented federal incursion (00:00–01:56).
• ICE is reportedly going door-to-door, often without clear warrants, sparking terror among residents (03:20–04:44).

The Pretext of "Absolute Immunity"

• GOP figures (J.D. Vance, Kristi Noem) claim federal agents have "absolute immunity," emboldening ICE actions.
  • Katie Phang (02:04):
    "There is no such thing as absolute immunity for these federal agents... There is an immunity defense... but not absolute immunity."

Legal and Procedural Violations

• Videos show ICE agents storming homes, often without showing legitimate judicial warrants (03:20–04:44).

• Residents, often with children present, are threatened at gunpoint. Recording attempts are impaired with strobe lights/tasers—a tactic to disable documentation (05:32–05:51).

  • Katie Phang (05:32):
    "Part of the strobe... is affecting her ability to record. I want people to understand..."

Racial and Political Targeting

• Acosta and Phang argue ICE is targeting Somali and African-American communities, under cover of fraud investigations, but with broad, politicized intent.
  • Katie Phang (06:22):
    "They're supposed to be going after trafficking... but this is a bullshit pretext... they're using this pretext to flood the zone."

Civil Resistance and Community Response

• Residents demonstrate civil disobedience: livestreaming, demanding warrants, banging pans, protesting (09:32–18:30).
• Chilling exchanges show ICE invoking religious language (“Go to church”) and referencing Renee Good’s killing as a warning to residents.
  • ICE Agent (10:27):
    "This is your warning. Gotta get to the house. Go home to your kids. Go to church."
  • Jim Acosta (11:23):
    "Learn from what just happened. He's talking about Renee Good, isn't he?"

Federal and State Legal Clash

• Minn. AG Keith Ellison announces legal action to protect state residents against "Operation Metro Surge" (15:22–17:29, 50:45–51:04). With 2,000 federal agents vs just 600 city police, Acosta frames this as “unconstitutional federalization.”
• DOJ Civil Rights Division declines to investigate Renee Good’s killing, deepening perception of zero accountability (19:22–20:04).

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2. Weaponization of the Justice Department: The Case of Jerome Powell

Trump Targets Central Bank Independence

• Trump’s DOJ opens a probe into Fed Chair Powell, officially over Senate testimony about building renovations, but Acosta and Wolfers see it as thin pretext for political retribution (24:01–24:36).

  • Justin Wolfers (25:21):
    "Trump threatened to jail the Fed Chair. That is unprecedented in American history."

Historical and Economic Parallels

• Wolfers draws direct analogies to global strongmen (Erdogan, Turkey) who attacked independent central banks, resulting in hyperinflation and economic chaos.
  • Wolfers (25:50):
    "These are tin pot dictatorships... [Trump’s] just proudly added our name, the United States, to the list..."

Markets and Institutional Erosion

• Despite the drama, Wolfers notes markets did not crash, as they’ve “baked in” Trump’s posturing:

  • Wolfers (32:07):
    "The Trump 2-step: he yap yap yaps... and only occasionally follows through... as a trader, you should discount any particular yap."

• But the real risk comes if Trump succeeds in appointing a loyal “toady” as Fed Chair:

  • Wolfers (35:04):
    "Monetary policy will be run in the best interests of the president's whims rather than the American people... that could end in disaster."

• Loss of credible economic data, politicization of institutions, and attacks on the free press all described as tantamount “institutional arson.”

  • Wolfers (37:24):
    "What matters for long run prosperity is the quality of your economic and political institutions... destroying those institutions is an unbalanced bet."
  • Acosta (39:13):
    "You go look around the world, find the countries that don't have a free press and ask yourself, are those places where you want to live?"

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3. Foreign Adventurism: Venezuela and Greenland

Trump's Childlike Expansionism

• Acosta and Froman mock Trump’s glib talk about “taking Venezuela” for its oil and “maybe I’ll take Greenland too,” with Froman emphasizing the strategic (but costly) reality beneath the bombast (41:15–48:36).
  • Froman (41:15):
    "The president has laid out what his national security strategy is... first the boats off Venezuela... then after Maduro... then it was about oil."

Oil & Corporate Realities

• Despite Trump’s claims, major oil companies aren’t rushing into Venezuelan or Greenlandic ventures; conditions are prohibitive and profit unlikely.
• U.S. is already an energy exporter; Venezuela produces only 30% of historical output, most going to China.

Greenland is Not for the Taking

• Froman, just back from a Council on Foreign Relations trip, explains that while Greenland is strategically important, the U.S. already has military presence by agreement; “buying” or invading it is a fantasy—and would create a costly money pit.

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4. Tariffs & Supreme Court Showdown

• The Supreme Court is considering limiting Trump’s ability to unilaterally impose tariffs, but Froman notes:
  • Froman (48:50):
    "If he is determined to impose tariffs... he will find a way to do so consistent with the law... We're just going to live in a higher tariff world."

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5. Neo-Nazi Dog Whistles in Federal Messaging

• Acosta exposes recent DHS and Labor Dept. social media posts using language from neo-Nazi songs.
  • Acosta (50:45–52:00):
    "When you look at the Department of Homeland Security posting ‘We'll have our home again’, they are... it’s a dog whistle... They're carrying out the mission of white nationalists."
• He warns that rhetoric and tactics now mirror what conservatives previously accused Democrats of wanting.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Jim Acosta (11:08):
  "They’re spewing MAGA talking points. They're acting like dickless MAGA goons. And Katie, they're totally out of control."
• Katie Phang (22:16):
  "People are tired of the double standards. If you and I didn't comply with the law, we would be in violation... We're tired of the excuses in court."
• Justin Wolfers (25:50):
  "These are tin pot dictatorships. What Trump has done is he's just proudly added our name... to the list."
• Mike Froman (45:51):
  "There’s a nugget of truth and value that we have to take seriously ... but we don’t have to invade them and we don’t have to buy them."
• Jim Acosta (52:00):
  "When you look at the Department of Homeland Security posting ‘We'll have our home again’, it's a dog whistle... They're basically saying: We’ll have your home."

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• ICE Raids & Legal Discussion

  • 00:00–07:08: Introduction of ICE escalation, absolute immunity, legal violations
  • 09:09–12:16: Viral videos, community resistance, agents' threats
  • 15:22–18:45: State legal response, constitutional dimensions

• Weaponization of DOJ Against Jerome Powell

  • 23:43–24:36: Acosta introduces Powell’s situation
  • 25:21–28:44: Wolfers connects Trump’s attack on central bank to global autocrats
  • 29:36–31:20: Legal pretexts and lack of credibility
  • 32:07–35:08: Markets’ response, risk of a “toady” Fed chair
  • 36:16–39:13: Broader institutional damage to economy and democracy

• Foreign Policy/Trade Discussion

  • 41:15–44:58: Venezuela, oil, and real-world economics
  • 45:44–48:36: Greenland, NATO implications, strategic reality

• Keith Ellison Lawsuit Announcement

  • 50:45–51:04: AG Ellison announces suit against DHS

• Neo-Nazi Rhetoric in Federal Social Media

  • 51:04–52:00: Acosta highlights disturbing government messaging

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Tone & Language

• Unapologetically direct, urgent, exasperated—matching the host’s exclamatory, indignant, and colloquial delivery.
• Guests bring expertise but echo Acosta’s bluntness, decrying abuses, institutional decay, and the threat to American democracy.
• Spicy language and personal invective toward administration figures reflect the emotionally fraught context.

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Conclusion

This episode paints a harrowing portrait of an America where executive power is abused to terrorize communities, hollow out constitutional protections, and bully independent institutions. The breadth of critique—spanning law, economics, and global credibility—makes clear the stakes: “Our Constitution is disintegrating in front of our eyes” (Acosta, 61:35). Acosta and his guests urge vigilance, legal action, and civil resistance, warning that historic American freedoms cannot survive unchecked executive impunity.

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For listeners seeking a comprehensive understanding of the chaos unleashed in Minneapolis, the fragility of American institutions under Trump’s second term, and the echoes of authoritarianism, this episode delivers an unflinching, detail-rich analysis.

Transcript

[Jim Acosta]

Foreign. To the Jim Acosta show, where it's another day that ends and why in Donald Trump's assault on American freedom. Trump is sending hundreds more federal agents into Minneapolis less than one week after the killing of Renee Good by an ICE officer. Meanwhile, his Justice Department is targeting the chairman of the Federal Reserve, Jerome Powell. A lot to cover on this show. Let's discuss with legal expert Katie Fang. Katie, great to see. As always, we can find you on the Katie fang show on YouTube. You're on substack, you're everywhere. And I, we have to jump into this ICE stuff because it's just getting worse and worse. There were some new videos that flared up over the last, what, day or two? Yeah, they're not backing down. They're sending hundreds more. And obviously they, they don't feel any concern at all about what, what took place last week and they're just going to double down.

[Katie Fang]

No. And I think what I've been saying on social media, Jim, I think it's getting worse. Like as in, I think once you saw J.D. vance and others, Christy Noam and, and Felon Trump lying to the American people, stating that there's something called absolute immunity for these agents and CBP officers to go out and do what they're doing. I think they all feel emboldened now. Right. I think they feel like I've got the, the, I've got J.D. vance and others have got my back on this and so I go and execute a person in broad daylight. But it's okay because the President said I have absolute immunity. So did the VP And I feel like the tensions are escalating. And I feel like when we're watching these videos, Jim, they just don't give a right. I mean, the fact that somebody's driving, there's no problem with observing and filming it, and they're just literally assaulting people and dragging them out of their cars.

[Jim Acosta]

And I mean, I, I, forgive me for asking a stupid question, but they don't have absolute immunity, right? They don't. They think they do, but they don't.

[Katie Fang]

Well, they shouldn't think they do because a part of a part of training to become a federal law enforcement officer includes basic legal concepts. They don't just hand you badging. Well, maybe they do now in ice, they don't. They're not supposed to just hand you a badge and a gun and say, go forth and prosperity. You get basic fundamental legal training when it comes to what are you allowed to do, Fourth Amendment, Fifth Amendment, I mean, all of these things are part of your training and experience. And in this instance, there is no absolute immunity. In fact, there is an immunity defense that is available should you be charged for going outside the scope of your duties, committing a crime, etc. But there is no such thing as absolute immunity for these federal agents.

[Jim Acosta]

And.

[Katie Fang]

But they're not. They don't care. Right. Like, it doesn't fit with their narrative and it doesn't fit with their mission. And their mission has been explicitly clear. Use American cities as training grounds for terror. And that's exactly what they're doing.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. And I mean, let's show this video that our friend Nick Valencia sent us. I mean, this is the thing I'm worried about, Katie, is it looks like they're, they are going to go door to door. I mean, JD Van said that last week in some interview with Jesse Waters. And, you know, he just sort of threw it out there. We're going to start going door to door. Let's show this and talk about it.

[Resident at home]

Where is it? Can you put the guns down, though? Can you put the guns down? There's kids in this house.

[Jim Acosta]

Look at this.

[Resident at home]

There is kids in this house. Show the warrant first. Show the warrant. Where is the warrant? Show the warrant. There's kids in this house. I see, Katie.

[Jim Acosta]

It's, it's so scary. And you can hear the, the people at home saying, where's the warrant? And can you take the guns away? Their kids in the house. This is scary. This is just scary. This is terrifying.

[Katie Fang]

And you know what's interesting, Jim, is they're standing at the threshold of this residence because they know that they do need a warrant to enter. You have to have a judicial warrant to enter. And, and I've been, I, I saw some, some coverage of this, Jim. Eventually they show a piece of paper, whether it's an administrative warrant that doesn't allow entry into a residence, or they showed a judicial warrant, which does. I don't know what it ended up being. I don't even think these guys, I don't even think these agents even know what the hell they have in their hands. But it's smart for this woman to, A, be live streaming it. She was live streaming this gym.

[Jim Acosta]

Amazing.

[Katie Fang]

And B, and B, it was smart for her to be asking and demanding a warrant to be shown to her prior to entry. At the end, they don't even bother to show the damn warrant. They're going to end up going into this woman's home with children there under. What, what's the, what's the pretense for this. Right?

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah.

[Mike Froman]

And.

[Jim Acosta]

And it's in the constitutional we have.

[Mike Froman]

Yeah.

[Jim Acosta]

They're just walking in right there. And the Constitution is supposed to protect people from this. They're supposed to be due process. You're supposed to go to a judge. And I just. I'm looking at the. The people at the house, inside the house, the. The residents or the homeowners, you know, how are they being targeted by ice? I don't understand that. I mean, the whole thing is just insane to me.

[Katie Fang]

Well, you know, it's amazing how it. And by the way, I want. I want people to see, number one. Right. Their faces are all covered. Right. So I always say, if you are proud of the work you're doing and, you know it's legal and you don't have a problem with it, why cover your face? And number two, you know what they're starting to do, Jim, here, You see how they're strobing her with that light?

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. What is that?

[Katie Fang]

It's a taser. It's a Taser. But part of the strobe as well is affecting her ability to record. I want people to understand.

[Jim Acosta]

Oh, wow.

[Katie Fang]

See how she's not really able to clearly record things because of the strobing light effects.

[Jim Acosta]

So that's to sort of disable the phone, the camera on the phone a little bit.

[Katie Fang]

Ability to record it accurately.

[Justin Wolfers]

Yeah.

[Katie Fang]

And there's. And Tasers as well. So, I mean, they. This woman was very brave, Jim. I don't even have the words. But, you know, there is a. There is a obvious dislike of Minnesota and really Governor Walls and others in Minnesota by Trump. Right. And this administration.

[Jim Acosta]

And it's the racism that's aimed at Somali immigrants. So this explains why they may be targeting, I guess, African American, black homes.

[Katie Fang]

They're supposed to be going after trafficking, by the way, because the fraud stuff is a different beast. Right. And the fraud stuff is also bullshit pretext, because as a prosecutor, you would prosecute people. I would prosecute people for fraud all the time. Right. But it's not. Let me not send billions in child care funding. Right. That's not what we do. We actually do targeted prosecutions, and in this instance, they're using this pretext for a fraud to be able to flood the zone with agents. They sent in more than 2,000 agents, Jim, more than a week and a half ago. And I'm telling you, the death of Renee Nicole Good is squarely at the feet of Donald Trump. If they not send those ICE agents in, you would not be seeing this Measure of response from the brave citizens of Minneapolis and in Minnesota.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah, no, I, I, I do want to talk about that. Because to me, Donald Trump is responsible for Renee Good's death. Stephen Miller is responsible for Renee Good's death. He's the one who's on these conference calls with, with ICE and dhs and go harder, you know, don't hold back. You know, go out there and, and do what needs to get done. And you know, when you look at these, these videos, there's a, there's another video we should show of this ICE agent falling on his ass on the ice. They, they look like the Keystone. And of course, a lot of different people, because people hate ICE so much, they've turned this into a viral video. Like, at least a thousand people have put out their own videos of this. But this idiot right here is running on the ice in his boots. I mean, I don't know what he expected to happen. Of course he's going to fall down and hit his head. He's a dumbass. And they just hired these people by the dozens, by the hundreds. Deputy dog, Barney Fife, goofball Keystone cops.

[Katie Fang]

Well, here's the thing, though. So last week, when Renee Nicole Good was murdered by ICE agent Jonathan Ross, one of the first questions we all asked ourselves was what kind of training, if any, are these agents receiving? Then we find out this guy actually is a firearms instructor, Jim. So that the terrifying thing is he's in a position of responsibility where he is teaching others how to use their firearms. But by all, you know, views, what we saw ourselves last week in real time, he's not knowing how to use his firearm appropriately, accurately and legally. And so that should give people a lot of concern that there is a man who, who has been given the responsibility to train others in the use of firearms, and he has actually killed somebody last week.

[Jim Acosta]

And there's this other video that, that took place at a gas station. We should talk about this one, too. Let's watch that. I mean, there, these are coming out every day, multiple times.

[Katie Fang]

That looks like Greg Bovino. Little man Greg Bovino is what it looks like.

[Jim Acosta]

They're just getting in fights with people. It looks like.

[Mike Froman]

Stay back.

[Katie Fang]

Look at these.

[Jim Acosta]

I mean, and all of these videos. Say that again, Katie.

[Katie Fang]

It looks like Border Patrol. I mean, there's a video too, Jim, that I posted on my socials because I wanted to find out who this person was. But there was a woman who was videotaping the arrest of another person in another car who was being dragged out of their Car simply because they were following. I mean, now it's a crime to actually drive your vehicle on the road and follow these people. But it's not. Let me be clear. It's not a crime.

[Jim Acosta]

And.

[Katie Fang]

And she's videoing it and the guy walks up to her and he lit. The agent walks up to her and he literally said to her, jim. He said, haven't you learned your lesson from what happened?

[Jim Acosta]

I saw that. I think we have that one too. There's. Let's show that. There's the one that looks like it's in an alley. And we should show that one too, Matt, where the guy's talking about church. This right here. I had a viewer sent this to me over the weekend.

[Justin Wolfers]

For what?

[ICE Agent]

Stop following us. You are impeding operations. This is the United States Federal. I live over here. I gotta get. This is your warning. Gotta get to the house. Go home to your kids. Go to church.

[Jim Acosta]

Go to home. Go to your kids.

[ICE Agent]

This is your last morning. I serve the Lord.

[Jim Acosta]

You God. These.

[Katie Fang]

These very insecure people. I don't know I'm allowed to drive down my street to go to.

[ICE Agent]

Go to church.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. And then listen with this guy at. This guy says some stuff too.

[ICE Agent]

You should be in church.

[Mike Froman]

Just don't make a bad decision, okay.

[ICE Agent]

Sir, I'm not making any bad decision. I'm peaceful. I serve the Lord. You've been war.

[Justin Wolfers]

All right?

[ICE Agent]

Not a draft dodging coward.

[Jim Acosta]

Have a great day, sir. You too.

[ICE Agent]

God bless. Let these people go to church. Let these people serve the Lord and worship. Let people come in, sir. Let the people do that.

[Jim Acosta]

I guarantee you're not going to like the outcome.

[ICE Agent]

Go home to your children.

[Jim Acosta]

It's Sunday.

[ICE Agent]

Yeah, go. Exactly. Let people go to church.

[Jim Acosta]

Learn from what just happened.

[Katie Fang]

Go home.

[Jim Acosta]

Learn what you did not learn from what just happened. He's talking about Renee. Good, isn't he?

[Mike Froman]

Yeah.

[Katie Fang]

No, and there's a. There's another one. The one I was just referencing that.

[ICE Agent]

I have nothing to hide.

[Katie Fang]

Where he.

[Jim Acosta]

Where he.

[ICE Agent]

Nothing to hide.

[Katie Fang]

Took her phone.

[ICE Agent]

I'm gonna go to church. I'm gonna worship the Lord. I suggest you guys do the same. I serve the Lord. Not a draft dodging coward. I can't believe you take orders from a draft dodger. America safe again, brother.

[Jim Acosta]

Always.

[Justin Wolfers]

Thank you.

[Jim Acosta]

Oh, you heard that? The comeback from the ICE officer. Make America safe again. So they're. They're spewing MAGA talking points. They're acting like dickless MAGA goons. And Katie, they're totally out of control.

[Justin Wolfers]

Yeah.

[Katie Fang]

And you know, Jim, I just posted on my YouTube channel a video a few hours ago that exposed the ICE director, Todd Lyons lying on Fox News yesterday with doocy, the little doocy, I forget his first. And Lyons was asked by Ducey, why is this ICE agent Jonathan Ross using his cell phone and arming himself with the cell phone while he was interacting with Renee Nicole. Good. To which Lyons, as the director of ice, makes the following misrepresentations. He says there was no budget for it from the last administration, trying to blame Joe Biden, who's not our president anymore, and that they're working on getting body cams for these ICE agents. But here's the thing. Trump issued an executive order on his first day of office in January of 2025, where he rescinded and revoked the prior Biden executive order that had mandated and required body cams on federal law enforcement agents. ICE agents are federal law enforcement agents. Putting aside whether they should be doing street level work, which I don't think they should be doing, as we've seen, they're incapable of interacting with the public on a daily basis. But those body cams, they were supposed to be worn by required law enforcement things for these federal, these federal agencies. And of course, Trump rescinded and revoked all the good orders, right? He was like, fuck it, I don't want those. Because what do those do, Jim? Those. Those create accountability measures for shitty cops and shitty agents, Right? And so, no, Todd Lyons, you clearly don't even know your goddamn agency because you don't have body cams. You haven't used them since fucking February of 2025. DEA doesn't use body cams. Now, doesn't it make you really worried, Jim? Why not use a body cam if you are, if you're so committed to transparency, you want to make America safe again, and you're so comfortable with the reasonableness of your response to your interactions and encounters with public, then why not have a body cam? But they don't want that, right? They don't want people to see what they're doing. In fact, I think Ross was doing propaganda videos, Jim. I do not think he was doing it to document his interaction with Renee. Good.

[Jim Acosta]

I think you might be right about that. I do. And I think that the reason why they don't wear the body cams is the same reason why they wear the masks. They don't want accountability. They want to be able to act with impunity where, you know, you can just go out there and crack people's skulls and get away with it. And you know, to me, this is a huge moment right now because, you know, going back to the video that we saw earlier, Katie, if they're going to start going door to door in this country and do this kind of stuff in various communities, we're in a world of hurt. And the Republicans in Congress are not doing anything to hold Trump accountable. And it seems to me that the Democrats are going to have to do something here. Apparently, the government may run out of money. Again, I've advocated for this over the past year. I've said, listen, if ICE is going to continue to act this way, power of the purse strings, if Republicans want Democrats to help them pass budgets, pass spending plans, you've got to get ICE under control. And I just don't see anybody getting ICE under control right now. It's totally nuts.

[Katie Fang]

So I will say this. There is a we're on east coast time right now. It's 4:17 Eastern. So it is 3:17 in Minneapolis. And in about 15 minutes, Jim, there will be a press conference held by the attorney general of Minnesota, Keith Ellison. He will be joined by the Minneapolis mayor and the St. Paul mayor. And Attorney General Ellison has says he will be making an announcement about how we're going to take action to defend and protect the rights of Minnesotans and Americans. He says this is how state leaders are going to respond to the federal government's ongoing, quote, Operation Metro Surge deployment to the twin cities. Apparently, 2,000 federal agents from ICE and other agencies of DHS were deployed last week and around a thousand CBP agents are expected to be deployed, according to CNN's reports today. So you, by comparison, if you look at this, Jim, the Minneapolis PD has only 600 officers. But here's the thing. We have seen this done, Jim, in other American cities, the unlawful and unconstitutional federalization of the National Guard and deployment of American military to American cities where federal judges have said time out, bringing them here just creates more chaos. And there's certainly not anything that rises to the level of meriting that. So I'll be curious to see what Attorney General Ellison and The Minneapolis and St. Paul mayors say they're going to be doing. Hopefully it's some type of affirmative action to be able to protect those citizens. Because how do you you think you're.

[Jim Acosta]

Saying this to the federal courts? I mean, doesn't Keith Ellison somebody to take this into the federal court system and get this up to the Supreme Court? Because it seems to me, you know, for the feds to say, well, you know, the state of Minnesota can't investigate this. Sorry, tough luck. The FBI is going to handle this. Just doesn't strikes me as, again, we're, we're not following the Constitution here. Something's out of whack. And, you know, put this in the lap of that MAGA Supreme Court and say, listen, I remember when you guys used to have, used to accuse Barack Obama of wanting to go door to door in this country and Joe Biden wanting to go door to door in this. Does it not apply when it's your guy in the White House? I mean, that, that to me is, is a major problem.

[Katie Fang]

Yeah. And think about this too, as well, right? Like, you want to have good policing, right. You want to have good, safe, responsible policing because you want to have safe communities. I mean, the fact that the Republican Party likes to say that public safety and safety is such a big deal, and yet you are creating unsafe conditions because you want to be able to create the perfect storm for this draconian immigration enforcement plan that Trump has done. But now, have you noticed, Jim, we've now transcended immigration enforcement. Right. We have ICE and DHS ostensibly supposed to be doing immigration measures, but no, now we're going to go door to door. And I think what that does is it also creates this kind of bigger sentiment and climate of fear where people are just supposed to submit. They're just supposed to say, thank you, sir. Maya, I have another. And they're not supposed to question, which is why the whistles, the banging of the pans, the honking, everything that you're seeing is literally Civil Disobedience 101, is it not? Yeah, it's this idea of documenting all of this, you know, and there have.

[Jim Acosta]

Been some Republican members of Congress who have said, and I talked about this last week, that, oh, you just need to stop protesting, you need to stop demonstrating. In what world is that? I mean, there's no way that that is going to fly in the United States of America. I mean, that.

[Katie Fang]

That is against our protected conduct.

[Jim Acosta]

It's the First Amendment, you know, it's the First Amendment. I'm sorry, these guys are totally out to lunch. Before I let you go, I have to ask you, Katie, because the Epstein files, you and I haven't talked about this in a while. We've talked about this a number of times, and it sounds like Ro Khanna and Thomas Massie want to appoint a special master or somebody to go through the, the, these Epstein files because the doj, I mean, with all this other shit flying around the, the eye is off the ball of the Epstein files, it seems to me, in terms of where the public is looking right now and the major news organizations, which of course get distracted by the bright shiny objects. But it seems to me we got to get back to talking about The.

[Katie Fang]

Epstein files 100%, you know, really quickly before we transition to Epstein. I just wanted to say this. You and I both know this really well, Jim. Having covered this in our. In our time on the news, in the, quote, other places, the dark places. The Department of Justice has a civil rights division that's supposed to be investigating pattern and practice of misconduct by law enforcement. We've seen it done that. It resulted in consent orders and consent judgments and decrees that were basically monitoring bad police conduct or bad law enforcement conduct. And we already had an announcement that the Department of Justice Civil Rights division will not investigate the murder of Renee Nicole.

[ICE Agent]

Good.

[Jim Acosta]

Totally crazy.

[Katie Fang]

And so. So it really fits, right, with the ultimate theme of no accountability, no transparency. Which then segues us to Epstein. No accountability, no transparency. Grateful for, I think, a very creative legal move by Khanna and Massie to ask for Judge Paul Ingermeyer, the Southern District of New York judge who's presiding over Ghislaine Maxwell's case, to seek the appointment of a special master. You get those all the time, Jim. Normally it's through consent of both sides. It would be very interesting to see the Department of Justice want to object to it again. What are you trying to hide here? Yeah, but a special master would actually take to task the Department of Justice for not providing the full entirety of the documents. It would allow a special master to probe the excuses that have been offered up by Pamela Joe and others at the doj, including a letter provided by Pamela Joe just last week saying we have millions of documents left to be covered. By the way, footnote documents could be multi page documents. So it's not just millions of pages. It's millions.

[Jim Acosta]

They better get them out there.

[Katie Fang]

They should have been hauling ass months ago. Don't you remember Pamela Joe said I have the Epstein files on my desk. Yeah, right.

[Jim Acosta]

Turns out they weren't. They were all over the place, on multiple desks, multiple buildings. No, I. I think that they're just full of crap on this and they're going to slow walk this and it's going to take somebody forcing their hand. It's just that. That's just the way it is. And I don't know how many times Congress has to pass legislation to make them follow the law, but it's already. It's Already done like he is. They are supposed to do this. And I don't know if, if Massie and Connor can figure out a way to take this to the courts, but it seems to me, you know, something's got to be done here because they've completely slow walked this and, and they're going to continue to do that while he creates all these distractions everywhere else.

[Katie Fang]

And Special Masters Gym can actually order parties to do things, and if they don't, they can make referrals. And so you could see another contempt route through the judicial system, not just your contempt route of inherent contempt. You could do with congressional, you know, means. I just want to say this, Jim. You know what people are tired of? People are tired of the double standards. The double standards. If you and I didn't comply with the law, we would be in violation of it and they would haul our asses into jail. Right. So we're just tired of the double standards. We're tired of the excuses in court. If you have a legally imposed deadline, you either ask leave of court for an extension or enlargement of time to be able to satisfy that deadline, or you comply. Those are your options.

[Jim Acosta]

But send ico. Get the goddamn Epstein files. It seems to me something like that. I don't know.

[Katie Fang]

Well, they're too busy trying to scrub Trump's name off of that. That's why ICE is so goddamn busy, too.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah, there is that. All right, Katie, great to see as always. And Katie, Katie and I have been talking. We got stuff cooking here, so just, just stay tuned, everybody. We'll be talking some more here very soon. But, Katie, thanks a lot.

[Katie Fang]

Great to see you, my friend. Take care.

[Jim Acosta]

Really, really appreciate it. And does anybody remember when Donald Trump said this? He said this at his inauguration. We are always focused on maybe how much makeup he has on or whether he's going to get the words out. Right. But he said, he said this at his inauguration, quote, the vicious, violent and unfair weaponization of the Justice Department and our government will end, he said. And just last night, a surprise. The chairman of the Federal Reserve, Jerome Powell, announced that he's now under investigation for some cockamamie reasons that, that Trump and, and his gang have come up with. And it's basically to rattle Jerome Powell's cage and to get him to do what Donald Trump wants with interest rates or just to make him leave altogether. But I've been wanting to get Justin Wolfers, the great economist, on for some time, and he's here with us now to talk about all this. Justin it's great to see you, mate.

[Justin Wolfers]

I, I go by boyishly handsome economist.

[Jim Acosta]

Boyishly handsome economist. I like that too. I, I.

[Justin Wolfers]

I appreciate you. I see you, Jim.

[Jim Acosta]

I used to be called that as well, but at some point you get so old that boyishly does not, it just, it just doesn't work anymore.

[Justin Wolfers]

I think you're pulling it off, brother.

[Jim Acosta]

They manishly. I'll try, I'll take that. Justin, great to see. I mean, I just read what Donald Trump said in his inauguration. We all knew at the time that they fully intended to do government weaponization. When he got back into the White House, he did campaign by saying, I am your revenge, I am your retribution. And he's now going after Jerome Powell. Your thoughts? I mean, when I saw that video last night, I thought this feels very Handmaid's Tale, dystopian, 1984, through the looking Glass, when the chairman of the Federal Reserve is putting out a video basically saying, please help, help. Yes.

[Justin Wolfers]

Yeah. You'll also notice that he put out that video on more than one network, that it wasn't just on the Federal Reserve's website. He, they're making themselves a little bulletproof over there. So look, let me just explain to the audience. Powell went and spoke directly to the camera, directly to the American people. I have been watching the Federal Reserve and central banks around the world for years. In fact, I had more hair when I started this. I have never ever seen that happen. So this is unprecedented. Now why would he be moved to do this? There's a lot of legal mumbo jumbo and I love the fact that you cut through it, Jim, but I'm going to cut through it even more directly, please. Trump threatened to jail the Fed chair.

[Jim Acosta]

That's it in a nutshell.

[Justin Wolfers]

That is unprecedented in American history. Now, it is not unprecedented in, in world history for a leader to threaten to jail their central bank chief. It happened in Venezuela, it happened in Russia, it happened in Argentina, it happened in Turkey, it happened in Zimbabwe. All famously well run economies, to be clear. That was Australian for sarcasm.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah, exactly.

[Justin Wolfers]

These are tin pot dictatorships. What Trump has done is he's just proudly added our name, the United States to the list of countries that have done this. And it's a list exclusively of tin pot dictators. And let me tell you one more thing. It never ends well. Each of those are countries that went on and had enormous and striking hyperinflations. Not inflations, not 4% inflation instead of 3, but 30 or 300 or 3,000 or in fact, as high as 3 million percent. These are places where this is the last gasp of a dictator who wants to run the world and is out of conventional options and believes a little bit too much in themselves. And when they do that, very, very bad things happen.

[Jim Acosta]

And these are economies that in some cases, still are not models of economic growth.

[Justin Wolfers]

Right, right. Look, let me give you the most directly comparable. So I can. You and I can talk economic theory all day, and I'd love to do it, sure. Teaching the public that. That's.

[Jim Acosta]

That's my jam, man.

[Justin Wolfers]

But what, you know, sometimes talking about history is a little simpler because it's a little more direct, which is, have we seen this happen before? Have we seen a popular, strong man with an unhealthy obsession with low interest rates, a belief that he and he alone understands things and shoes the. The advice of experts take control of the central bank? Yes, we have. Recently Erdogan did this in Turkey. Erdogan, like Trump, popular strongman like Trump, possessed of enormous self belief, like, has an unhealthy obsession with low interest rates. It's unclear why either of them do. They just do. And like Trump, attempted to undermine the independence of the central bank. The reason Turkey is interesting is we've seen the rest of the story play out, which is Erdogan succeeded. Erdogan appointed a loyalist to the central bank, and what that led to was low interest rates, exactly as he wanted. But if you keep interest rates too low for too long, what you do is you force inflation up. And if you're the sort of determined tin pot, strong man who likes doing this, you keep interest rate low even as inflation takes off, which is exactly the wrong medicine. And so then you get a cycle of ever increasing inflation. And in Turkey, we saw inflation hit 80%. Wow. And it's very hard to put that genie back in the bottle. They've made some movements back towards the same monetary policy in Turkey. But even now, last I checked, inflation was in the mid 30%. So the stakes here are real. And the other thing I want to point out is for those at home who think that it couldn't happen here, the US Is too serious, too real of a country. You know, before Erdogan came to power in Turkey, Turkey had inflation under control in much the same way the United States does. We are a different country. We have had a much longer record of monetary credibility. But the question is, do we have the checks and balances that will prevent us from following the rest of that Erdogan story?

[Jim Acosta]

And the other thing that you know we should tackle is. I mean, let's give the devil his due and say what exactly they're talking about, or the Justice Department. They're saying that this is about Jerome Powell's testimony to Congress. I guess it was last June over the cost of the renovation of the Fed buildings. For people who aren't in Washington, D.C. i've seen this for several years now. It's been under renovation for some time. And when you renovate. Renovate a federal building, it's not cheap, it's very expensive. And Trump gave Jerome Powell, famously, a hard time. Was it last year. And Jerome Powell had. He was not having it. And sort of like shoved it right back in Trump's face. And of course, Trump proceeded to bulldoze the East Wing of the White House. And so he'll get his own crash course and cost overruns for federal buildings. But putting that to the side, what's your sense of the credibility of the case against Jerome Powell?

[Justin Wolfers]

Zero. And in some deep sense, we just shouldn't even talk about it, which is the claim. So, to be clear, this is why I think it's important to describe it in these terms. Trump is threatening the Federal Reserve chair with jail.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah.

[Justin Wolfers]

Now, of course, he doesn't quite say it that way. The statement is that he lied to the Senate about the renovations. Now, lying to the Senate. I don't know if you've seen any Senate hearings lately. It seems to happen all day, every day.

[Jim Acosta]

But more, including from the senators.

[Justin Wolfers]

You said that, Jim.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah.

[Justin Wolfers]

You're enjoying a new freedom.

[Jim Acosta]

It is.

[Justin Wolfers]

But the evidentiary standard for that to be problematic is absolutely through the roof. This is just not a thing that we do. This is not a thing that a functioning Justice Department does. It doesn't historically do it doesn't currently do it. It's not doing it to anyone else who's lying in front of the Senate. So Powell described it correctly as a pretext. Thom Tillis has called it a pretext. Lisa Mikowski has called it a pretext. So therefore, let's not use the language of the pretext. Let's talk straight, straight through it. Powell is. Trump is threatening to jail Powell. Why? Because he angered Trump. Why? Because he's doing what Congress asked him to do. The Federal Reserve act says that his job is to conduct monetary policy in a way to balance interest inflation and unemployment in the best interests of the American people. And that's what he's been doing. He has no legal choice but to do that. And while you and I might disagree and think interest Rates should be a little bit higher or a little bit lower. There's no question that he's been meeting his legal standard and that if he were instead to do what the President wanted rather than what was in the best interests of the American people, that would be a breach of his responsibilities.

[Jim Acosta]

And I, and if I may ask another question that reveals my ignorance and just lack the lack of depth in these areas.

[Justin Wolfers]

Let's just talk economics, brother. I'm here to help.

[Jim Acosta]

Here's something that's been on my mind and it actually, I will say it does piss people, me off a little bit. Not that I want the markets to tank, not that I want there to be economic reverberations because of what Trump did.

[Justin Wolfers]

Yeah.

[Jim Acosta]

But basically the, the market looked at it today and, and they said, you know, it went down a little bit here and there, but sort of like, is it because the market has baked this stuff in and it's sort of a taco thing? Trump always chickens out and they don't take this seriously. And so the market just sort of went on and the crazy guy at the White House got to keep rambling and flapping his gums. But that's just not going to affect business down on Wall Street.

[Justin Wolfers]

Yes. And so let's go on. It's think of this as the Trump 2 step, which is, what does this guy do all day? He yap, yap, yaps, he talks, talks, talks, and he says all sorts of crazy things and then very occasionally follows through. And then when he follows through, he very occasionally, he often tacos. Trump always chickens out, but sometimes follows through. And the problem is when he yap, yap, yaps, if most of the time it means nothing, then as a trader, you should discount any particular yap. You should realize there's very high probability that this is much ado about nothing. So what's already baked in is that the guy's an authoritarian. What's not baked in is that he'll follow through. In fact, if you look at the last, it's not even 24 hours yet of coverage. It's absolutely clear that Trump has lost this. I think it's clear as a result that Powell is not going to be jailed by the President and that Trump has no choice but to wait four months until the end of Powell term. So what do we get? We get a storm in a teacup that more or less resolves straight away, in which case there's nothing for the markets to respond to. But when is the guy just yapping and when is it Serious. So, for instance, when he said, I believe in regime change in Venezuela, was that just more yap, yap, yap in order? Does the guy actually steal his resolve and go in there and do it?

[Jim Acosta]

Right.

[Justin Wolfers]

So what should we infer when he says, I believe in regime change at the Fed? There's a deep belief, as far as I can tell, that he does believe in that. It's just that it's created precisely nothing in terms of actually achieving his goals. And in fact, by the way, there's good reason for the markets to actually have been positive about this, because what it's done, if you read very carefully the statements of Tillis and Murkowski, it's laid bare what the whole thing is. Trump wants a toady at the top of the Fed. He wants to run the institution now. None of the rest of the Senate want that. And so what this has done is it's really raised the stakes on the next Fed chair who's due to be appointed.

[Jim Acosta]

Right.

[Justin Wolfers]

You now have Tiller saying, I'm not going to appoint a toady. That's actually wildly important. And so for anyone watching right now, I think the really important next step in this particular dance is watching what this. Who the Senate will confirm as the next Fed chair. If anything, I'm a little more optimistic that the odds of a toady getting through are now substantially worse. And so.

[Jim Acosta]

Interesting.

[Justin Wolfers]

Poor Kevin Hassett, I think I was going to say, blown up his chance of being the toady Fed Chair in chief.

[Jim Acosta]

Well, and that may be the silver lining in all this, because they always roll Kevin Hassett out there, and poor Kevin Hassett has to put lipstick on the pig. But, you know, I was watching him this morning and he was saying, well, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know anything about the case against Jerome Powell and. And so on, but he just.

[Justin Wolfers]

Now, he's a mere White House staffer. He's merely the President's chief economic advisor. Absolutely.

[Jim Acosta]

Which is not really a job.

[Justin Wolfers]

Expect that guy to know anything.

[Jim Acosta]

Right. But, but, but the risk of having somebody who is a toady, as you put it, at the top of the Federal Reserve would be, what do you think?

[Justin Wolfers]

Right. The risk. That's why I told the story of Turkey.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah.

[Justin Wolfers]

What happened in Turkey was not that Erdogan appointed himself. He appointed a Tony. The toady did what Erdogan wanted, which was implemented low interest rates. Damn the consequences. The concern is Trump has already said, I will only appoint someone who promises me low interest rates on day One, it's okay to have low interest rates sometimes. What it's not okay to do is have low interest rates when it's inappropriate. If it's inappropriate, that's what will spark an inflationary spiral. And so the concern of the toady is the president has his whims. I don't know about you, Jim, but I would much prefer a professional economist to the whims of a failed real estate developer. Oh, yeah, the President has gone.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah.

[Justin Wolfers]

And his whims look to be destructive. And if the toady were to indulge those whims, then monetary policy will be run in the best interests of the president's whims rather than the best interests of the American people. And that could end in disaster.

[Jim Acosta]

And we're already flying blind to some extent. Right, because we're not getting good economic data, reliable economic data as far. I mean, the kind of economic data that everybody can have confidence in. Trump ended that with what he did with the Department of Labor.

[Justin Wolfers]

Right. And so here's where you have an opportunity, Jim, and I want to. I applaud you for doing it, and I want you to keep doing more of it. So much economic commentary is about what happened this month, next quarter, what the latest number was. But there's something far deeper and far more important going on here. So let me step everything back rather than is the economy going up or down or in a boom or recession, and ask a deeper and more important question. Why are some countries, like the United States, rich while other countries. The country of my birth, for instance, was Papua New guinea in grinding poverty. And there's a whole industry of economists who've studied this. They've done case studies, they've put all sorts of numbers into computers and churned out all sorts of things. And the basic idea is this. What matters for long run prosperity is the quality of your economic and political institutions. Can we set rules of the game so that we're all provided with incentives to make the cake bigger rather than stealing our neighbor's slices? And so the problem right now is this, while it's a Republican president, is the least conservative president of my lifetime. So he's destroying institutions. Now, if you have a shitty set, bad set of institutions, you should.

[Jim Acosta]

Okay, we should. We say shitty here a lot, but that's okay.

[Justin Wolfers]

Yeah, I'm trying not to. If you have a bad set of institutions, maybe revolutionary change is a great idea. But if you're the world's leading economy and you have created a degree of prosperity that humanity had never thought possible, then destroying those institutions seems like a very, very unbalanced bet. And so destroying the Fed, the Fed's independence, that's one part of it. Destroying the independence of our statistical agencies so that they can measure what's going on and each of us understands the truth, that's another part of it. Destroying the quality of our democracy. Now, I'm going to sound like a soapbox politician, but I'm not. I'm speaking to you as an economist. Democracy is important to keep the folks in power on their toes and serving us when we no longer respect private property. So the CEO of Intel walks into the White House and then walks out 60 minutes later having accidentally left 10% of his company down the back of the White House couch that he happened to be sitting on. Intrusions into the way that private enterprise runs itself. And if I sound like a Reagan esque Republican right now, I'm not going to apologize for it. These are the things that determine long run economic opportunity. And so the thing I think is very important as an economist is that we don't focus so much on next quarter, but we focus on these institutions because these institutions are not going to play out next quarter or next year. They're going to determine the set of economic opportunities available for yours and my children.

[Jim Acosta]

That's such a great way of putting it. And I, I used to say to folks all the time who were, you know, who brushed off Trump's attacks on the press and, and said, you know, what's the big deal? He calls us the enemy of the people. And I would say, you go look around the world, find the countries that don't have a free press and ask yourself, are those places where you want to live? What's the quality of life that's part.

[Justin Wolfers]

Of this institutional attack?

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah, that's it. Well, Justin, great to see, as always, really appreciate it. I hope we can do this again soon. And you can say shitty all you want, it's totally fine. But I know you're trying to be good. Maybe it's a New Year's resolution, but thanks as always. Really great to see you.

[Justin Wolfers]

Take care. Thanks.

[Jim Acosta]

All right, Good to see you, Justin.

[Katie Fang]

Thanks.

[Jim Acosta]

And you know, one of the things that has destabilized a lot these days is the way Trump has been going around saying, I'm gonna, you know, we're gonna take Venezuela, we're gonna take the oil, and maybe I'll take Greenland too, and, and take their natural resources, because those natural resources are important and they're important from a national security stand. And just sort of like, you know, glibly flippantly talking about invading, you know, a NATO country, Greenland, part of Denmark and so on. But let's talk about this Michael Froman. Mike Froman is with us. He's the former trade representative during the Obama administration. Mike, maybe there was a time or two where I used to drive you guys nuts when I was covering the second Obama administration. Just a little bit here and there. There were probably worse offenders than myself. But, Mike, great to see you as always. And I don't know if you were hearing a little bit of what we were talking about with Justin Wolfers there a few moments ago. And just the way that, you know, we sort of take for granted the stability that we've enjoyed in this country for so many years. And yes, there, there, there's, you know, political instability that happens from time to time. I, I don't mean to, you know, minimize, you know, what has taken place in the past in this country, political conflicts, military conflicts and so on. But we enjoy relative stability in this country. We're in a, I think we're entering a phase of potentially great instability. If you have the president of the United States saying, oh, we're just going to take Venezuela, grab the oil, maybe go up to Greenland, grab their natural resources, we need that. We need that place to be part of the United States. Mike, what's been your I know you've got some thoughts on all this. What have you been thinking in terms of what we're seeing right now? It's pretty unsettling.

[Mike Froman]

Well, we are in the midst of a great disruption, and the president has laid out what his national security strategy is, and he was pretty clear that the Western Hemisphere was going to be number one on the list and links it back to homeland security, to the border, to issues around migration and drugs. And ostensibly was going after first the boats off the coast of Venezuela and then after model Maduro because he was a an indicted criminal for trafficking drugs to the United States. Of course, once he took Maduro, the narrative very much shifted to the oil that we wanted the oil for ourselves. And a lot, a lot has changed over the last decade or so. We're now the number one oil producer in the world. We're actually an oil exporter. And the companies that have been involved in exploring oil in places like Venezuela, their calculation has somewhat changed in that they've got a lot of other options, whether it's investing in the United States or looking to places that may have a greater degree of political stability or predictability. Like Guyana or elsewhere. And so one of the big questions will be how interested are the US Companies in exploiting the fields in Venezuela, which we're going to call require billions of dollars of investment to rebuild the infrastructure to. Right now they're producing about 30% of what they used to produce, and most of that's going to, to China. How much are they willing to, to invest there versus the other choices they have for their capital allocation?

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah, and, and Mike, I mean, the president, from time to time, I, I will just say this, and this is also underselling. It has a childlike way of looking at things. And I thought it was very interesting that the folks over at Exxon said, you know, we're not really interested in Venezuela. We just don't see that as a very good investment for us. And Trump got pissed at them and for saying that. And it seems to me, you know, in the back of his mind he's thinking, well, that's gratitude for you. I went and got the oil in Venezuela. Why don't you go do something with it? But it's not that simple, is it, Mike?

[Mike Froman]

Well, it's not that simple. And again, the markets have changed, the opportunities have changed, change. You know, I don't, I'm not aware that there was any consultation between the government and the oil companies beforehand. So that when he came out and said the oil companies are going to take full advantage of this, that there was a strong foundation for that. Now we'll have to see, I imagine all the oil companies are going to assemble a team, go down to Venezuela, assess what the real situation is. Only Chevron has been there throughout under a license from the, from the Treasury Department during the sanctions. So other companies may go in, take a look and decide whether or not it is, it's, it's worth investing in or not. And that'll be the dialogue there. In the meantime, you know, the president has said, we're running Venezuela. And of course, everyone's sort of wondering what that means in practice, day to day. Are we relying on the same regime that's been there in place, it's been decapitated? But you still have the vice president, the, the defense minister, the interior minister, who are very much part of the old regime. And we're not talking a lot about democracy at the point. Now, this week, he will be meeting with Machado, the opposition leader. He's very popular. The opposition was thought to have won the last election, that it was stolen by Maduro. And so we'll see if he comes out of that meeting with a different view of her and of the opposition and whether we move to elections at some stage that might give credibility to a new government there that could then begin to reform the place, get rid of the corruption, get rid of the criminality and create a new type of relationship between the United States and Venezuela.

[Jim Acosta]

Right. Machado is the one who won the Nobel Peace Prize and he is mad at her because she did not instantly give or insist that Donald Trump be given the Nobel Peace Prize. So there's that whole, you know, undercurrent running under all of that. But I do think we should jump into Greenland, Mike, because, I mean, this, I think is, is very worrisome to a lot of important European and NATO allies. Greenland is essentially part of Denmark and is, is basically a NATO ally. And so, I mean, can you imagine a scenario where Trump sends the military into Greenland and just sort of takes over? I mean, I guess the first thing we have to point out to folks is we're already there, isn't it? I mean, we have, we have a base.

[Mike Froman]

Yeah, look, I actually took a, a Council on Foreign Relations delegation to Greenland in August.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah.

[Mike Froman]

For a fact finding mission. Came back with the distinct view that, that we don't want it, that, that we can work with the green lenders and we with the Danes to expand our military presence there. We used to have 17 bases there in the height of the Cold War. Now we have one base there and there's a provision under an existing agreement with Denmark for the expansion of a military presence there. They would be delighted for us to have more activity there. And there's like so much of what the President says. There's a nugget of truth and value that we have to take seriously. The issues of Arctic security. Security are more important than ever, particularly melting ice caps. And there's more activity by Russia, more activity by Russia and China together. We should be more focused on it. And Greenland is strategically located, but we don't have to invade them and we don't have to buy them. Indeed, I think, I'm not sure anybody's explained this to the President, but Denmark has to subsidize Greenland to The tune of $600 million a year to maintain for 57,000 people, kind of a basic standard of living. So it's not going to make us rich like he thinks Venezuela will make us rich. It's actually going to cost us money if we were to take it over. And it's going to be a bit of a money pit, frankly, and we should be Delighted that the Danes want to continue to work with the Greenlanders on there and leave it to the Danes and the Greenlanders to work out what kind of relationship they have between themselves and with the rest of the world.

[Jim Acosta]

And, and this, I mean, when he says, well, we want the natural resource are there, that is there that much in terms of natural resources. And again, it seems to me, you know, where's the money going to come from? What companies are going to want to go do this? How is that going to work? It just it run it. When I say a childlike fascination, people might think, oh, you're saying he's like a child. I am saying he's like a child. You don't have to say that, Mike. But I mean, it is a very sort of two dimensional, almost one dimensional view of how things work and so many other cartoon or animation to explain it to them.

[Mike Froman]

There's a lot of talk about critical minerals and the potential there for critical minerals. And there probably are, there are a lot of minerals in, in Greenland. But again, we came back with the distinct impression that it would be one of the last places on earth that you'd want to mine because the very harsh conditions, the isolated geography, the lack of basic infrastructure, it's very difficult to have a profitable mine there. And so again, it's not going to make us rich. It may create some activity for the Greenlanders. They have a lot of hydropower, if there was a way of using hydropower to produce energy intensive products for export. But again, this is not a huge economic opportunity for the United States either. Indeed, I think it would end up costing the U.S. government. Not, not, not benefiting the U.S. government.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. And Mike, before I let you go, I have to ask you about the tariff situation at the Supreme Court and how, I mean, the Supreme Court could potentially devastate one of Donald Trump's chief economic policies. I mean, I don't know where you could come down on this if you.

[Mike Froman]

Think, yes and no.

[Jim Acosta]

Look, maybe, maybe I'm wrong.

[Mike Froman]

I don't know how the court, I don't know how the court will rule, but, you know, we will be screwed.

[Jim Acosta]

Or something like that. Or he will be.

[Mike Froman]

Yeah, let's assume the court does find that he exceeded his authority in using the emergency powers to impose tariffs. He's got plenty of other authorities. You know, without going through all the details, there's 301, there's 232, there's 201, there's 122, there's 338, these are all sections of the law that where Congress has given the president authority to impose tariffs, it may be slightly more difficult for him to do. It may require some more process. But I think the reality is if he is determined to impose tariffs, tariffs, which I believe he is, he will find a way to do so consistent with the law. And the rest of the world, frankly, I think has adjusted to that. We're just going to live in a higher tariff world.

[Jim Acosta]

Interesting. And, and it's, there's a, there's the taco element to this too, in that he chickens out. But to some extent what you're saying it sounds like, Mike, is that ultimately, at the end of the day, you know, it's not really a chicken out if we have to live with higher tariffs and we have to live with economic consequences of those tariffs.

[Mike Froman]

I think that's right. That's right. Economists are continuing to assess what those consequences are.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. Great to see you, Mike. Thanks so much.

[Mike Froman]

Thanks for having me.

[Jim Acosta]

Appreciate the time. Yeah. Good to catch up. Good to see you, sir. Thanks. It's always interesting to see, you know, and good to catch up with officials from the second Obama administration that I used to cover. It feels like a million years ago, a different lifetime. I do want to play before we get going here, apparently Keith Ellison, the Attorney General of Minnesota, just spoke to the cameras and said that, that basically that the state of Minnesota is, is thinking about going to the high court, going to the Supreme Court over what's been taking place with these ICE officers and the Fed saying, oh, you can't investigate. Sorry, you just can't do that. Let's listen to what Keith Ellison had to say. And I think it's important how I want to wrap up the hour.

[ICE Agent]

We've come together, we're here to announce a lawsuit we're filing against the United States Department of Homeland Security to end the unlawful unprecedented surge of the federal law enforcement agents into Minnesota because this has to stop.

[Jim Acosta]

So there you go. So. So Keith Ellison, the Attorney General of Minnesota, is going to take the administration to court. That is a very big update. We'll see how it plays out. What we've seen in the past is that the lower courts in many cases offer some relief to these cities and states when they say, hey, what's the deal with the National Guard? Or hey, what's the deal with ice? It's when they get up to these Court of Appeals and into the Supreme Court that it becomes a bit more of a live ball. So I guess we'll have to stay on Top of that. But I, I do want to show, and I, I know, you know, the, the MAGA people, the Trump people will say, oh, he's, he's been triggered. He's been triggered. But I just want to ask, have you folks seen some of the social media garbage that this administration puts out on places like the Department of Homeland Security? Look at this tweet right here. We'll have our home again. And it shows a cowboy riding a horse across the frozen tundra of I don't know where with a stealth bomber over his head. I don't know what DHS have to do with, has to do with stealth bombers. Let's, let's not get over our skis here, guys. But if you look at what it says there, it says, we'll have our home again. That is a neo Nazi. Those are neo Nazi lyrics to a neo Nazi song. Here's another video from the Department of Labor. And look at this video right here. Remember who we are. And this, this is, these are social media posts by the federal government, by these federal departments. Department of Homeland Security, the Department of labor. One that you're looking at right now. I mean, we were just looking at a few moments ago. They post that stuff all the time. Has nothing to do with labor. But going back to this one, this DHS one, we're not really in unison where it says we'll have our home again. Just, just to be clear, those are the lyrics to a neo Nazi song. People need to understand that. And you guys have heard me rail on this time and again. The Department of Homeland Security and its policy with the Coast Guard downgrading the significance of swastikas and nooses and so on, and, and maybe the idiots, the ass wipes who run these social media accounts have no idea what they're doing. But it's been, it's been made aware to them. If they look at social media and they do, these are very online people who run these accounts. When they post things like we have our home again. Folks, you need to understand what we're looking at here. When you look at the Department of Homeland Security posting We'll have our home again, they are basically, it's a dog whistle, I suppose you could say to the MAGA base, to the ultra right wing white nationalists in this country, that what the Department of Homeland Security is doing is carrying out the mission of white nationalists, of white supremacists. And what are we seeing on the streets of Minneapolis over the last couple of days? That video that our friend Nick Valencia sent Over. This is what we were talking about last week, folks. And I just want to, I want to mention this again. This is not America. I repeat, this is not America. This is the federal government going door to door in some of these communities. It sounds as though when we, when I looked at the video that they did not have a proper warrant. They're heavily armed, they're masked, they're in military style attire, and they're storming into people's homes. And, and to be clear, to be clear, that is not America. That is not who we are. But we are now in a place where the federal government can do this to the American people whenever they want, however they want, with as much weaponry as they can possibly bring to the front door. And I'm old enough to remember, folks, when there was a time when conservatives and Republicans in this country used to accuse Barack Obama of this exact thing, they would say, he's going to start going to people's homes to take their guns. He's going to start going to people's homes to take their rights away. This is what the Republicans, this is what the Tea Party people, this is what conservatives used to accuse Barack Obama of all the time, of Democrats all the time. And here we are at the beginning of 2026, ICE officers going to people's homes, heavily armed, entering people's homes, heavily armed, terrorizing the American people, I repeat, terrorizing the American people. And you know when you have the Homeland Security Secretary, Kristi Noem, the puppy killer, ICE Barbie, the rhinestone cowgirl, when she's out there accusing people like Renee Good of being domestic terrorists, Remember one of the old rules of thumb with Donald Trump. An accusation is almost always projection. An accusation is almost always confession. Who, who's acting like the terrorist now? Who's behaving like the terrorists now, going door to door in an American city, a great American city like Minneapolis, heavily armed with guns, with children present and searching homes door to door in America, it is not who we are. It is not the United States of America. And it makes sense to me that the Attorney General of Minnesota, Keith Ellison, is taking the Department of Homeland Security to court. Because, ladies and gentlemen, as I've said many times, this administration is out of control. This administration is out of control. Donald Trump is out of control. Stephen Miller is out of control. J.D. vance is out of control. Kristi Noem is out of control. And look at the, the, the stupid that they put online saying we'll have our home again. It sounds, it seems like from what we're seeing is that they'll have your home. The federal government, the government of the United States believes they, they can just go and have your home, that your home belongs to them. What happened to personal freedom? What happened to don't tread on me, We'll have our home again? It sounds to me what Donald Trump is saying is that they'll have your home. They'll have your home. And I, I want to just give a shout out to, to the folks who tuned in on Sunday, because I don't typically come, come to you on Sunday, but yesterday I went down to the, I went down to the protest in Washington, D.C. for Renee Good, and it was ice out for good. And about a thousand people showed up. They marched down Pennsylvania avenue over to ICE headquarters in D.C. and one of the speakers there said something very profound because we've all heard the, the expression the cruelty is the point. But it seems what this gentleman got up and said is, he said, the fear is the point, the violence is the point. And I, I said, that's it. That, that's what clicked with me. Yes, the cruelty is the point with Donald Trump. There's no question about it. But I think now more than ever, the fear is the point. Donald Trump wants you to be afraid. He wants you to live in fear. He wants you to open the door whether there's a warrant or not, and let the heavily armed authorities, federal authorities, into your home without question. ISIS learning in real time how to take your rights away. My friend Katie Fang was talking about this earlier on in this program, how they're using these strobe lights now on people to disable your, your phone's ability to record what's happening. They're learning in real time how to take our rights away, how to take our freedoms away. There it is right there, the strobe light. They're doing that so you can't use your phone to record what is taking place. This nice lady who is trying to defend her home, defend her children in her home, they're adapting. They're evolving. They're mutating to take our rights away. And ultimately it looks like, to take our homes away. And that is not America. That is not who we are. And, and the folks here in Washington better wake up you. They get awfully. They get awfully pissed when Trump goes after Jerome Powell. But what about that nice lady in Minneapolis? Where are the senators getting pissed about that nice lady? Where are the Republican senators getting pissed about that nice lady in Minneapolis getting her home invaded by a bunch of thugs and goons? Where is the outrage that our rights are being taken away, that our homes are being invaded? It's not who we are. It's not who we are. My thanks to Katie Fang. My thanks to Justin Wolfers, the economist. Always great to talk with him. And, and my thanks as well to Mike Froman, the former trade representative for Barack Obama. Folks, we're in a critical moment right now. Our, our Constitution is disintegrating in front of our eyes. If ICE can go into that lady's home in Minneapolis and if they can do that to her, they can do that to you. If they can, if they can shoot Renee Good in the face and say absolute immunity, then they can do that to you. And somebody needs to wake up here in Washington. Somebody needs to do something to get it through to this White House, to this out of control mad King president, that the Constitution still means something, that our rights and liberty still mean something, that our freedom still means something, and you're not taking it away from us. Hell no to that. Hell no to that. All right, everybody, thanks for watching. Still reporting from Washington, I'm Jim Acosta. I'll see you next time.

[Political Analyst or Commentator]

If the goal was immigration enforcement, if the goal were simply to look for people that are undocumented, Minneapolis and St. Paul would not be the place where you would go. There are countless more people that are undocumented in Florida and Texas and Utah. Why are they in these much smaller cities in the middle of the Midwest? The answer is very clear. It is politics. Florida and Texas and Utah are Republican states. The reason that Minnesota and Minneapolis are being targeted is because you've got a Democratic governor, a Democratic attorney general, and you got Democratic mayors.