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The Jim Acosta Show
ICE Runs Wild with Shutdown Looming with Congressional Candidate Kat Abughazaleh & Chris Meagher
00:53:02
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign.
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B
Welcome to the Jim Acosta Show. Happy Monday. And we are just over a day from a government shutdown here in Washington. Trump is preparing to fire thousands of federal workers to force Democrats to swallow his authoritarian form of government, all while he is military militarizing American cities, assembling his generals, letting ICE run wild, weaponizing his Justice Department and doing little to ease the economic tolerance on families. Here to discuss is Democratic congressional candidate in Illinois, Kat Abu Ghazala, who was roughed up by ICE just the other day outside an ICE processing facility. Kat, it's great to see you. Thanks for coming on.
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A
Thanks so much for having me, Joe.
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B
And it's Abu Ghazali. I knew I was going to get that.
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A
Just so everyone knows, he said it.
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B
Right before, during the practice. I said it right before. No, Kat, it's great to see you. And a lot of people are familiar with your work because over the years you have written a lot about FOX News and, you know, about what they do over there. We're not going to get into that right now, maybe a little bit later. But I mean, the thing that I wanted to interview you about was what took place a week ago Friday, because we've been tracking, you know, what ICE has been up to, you know, ever since Trump got back into the White House. And it seems to be escalating. And you have been an example of that. This was something that happened just the other day. We could show some of the footage. You were outside of an ICE processing facility right outside Chicago, and you guys have been gathering for these protests every week, and it got out of control and these armed ICE officers came after you. It's just wild.
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A
Yeah. That video is actually the third time that ICE has thrown me to the ground. I think they consider me very throwable, essentially what is happening here. We are protesting the Broadview processing Facility, which is where ICE headquarters its operations in the Chicago area. And because it is a processing facility, they're only supposed to hold detainees for 12 hours at a time. But we've heard reports of people being held for days or even weeks at a time without beds, without hot meals, without access to hygienic products. We've heard reports of grandmothers and pregnant women sleeping on concrete, of dozens of people in a single cell. And this has been ICE's processing facility for decades. In fact, there has been a vigil here every Friday morning for almost two decades at this point. But the way that ICE is abducting our neighbors in Chicago, the way they are targeting us and the way that they are subjecting detainees to these unbelievably inhumane conditions. That is new. So every Friday morning for the last few weeks, we've been protesting there 7 to 9am Some of us, including myself, show up a bit earlier, around 4:30 or 5, because they have changed their deportations to happen in the wee hours of the morning. And so that video, the one that went super viral, was the third time that ICE has thrown me to the ground. They had done it multiple times, and I think it shocked a lot of people because they're seeing this small blonde woman, even though it's obviously a dye job, being thrown by a man twice her size. But I want to stress here is everything that they are doing to us doesn't hold a candle to what they're doing to detainees in that facility. If they're willing to do that to a congressional candidate on camera in front of press, what are they willing to do behind boarded up windows, which is what the windows there are. This past week, they put up a fence, an unlawful fence on a public street to close off the facility from protesters. The Broadview Fire Department ordered that it come down. They did not take it down. And so we went to the other entrance to protest where a van tried to drive through protesters, where they shot us with pepper balls, where they deployed at least a dozen different canisters of tear gas. I saw a flashbang that detonated in front of a man's face. The week before the one where that video happened, a van tried to push through us carrying an abducted protester that they dragged, literally dragged into the facility. I had to play tug of war with another man's body on the public streets of Broadview to keep him from being abducted. These are masked thugs. We have no idea who they are. I have no idea who the guy that threw me was. The three guys, in all the time I've been there in the last four weeks, I've seen two batch numbers. So this Friday, we are asking every single person in Illinois to contact their elected representatives. And not just at the House and Senate in both the state and federal level, but all of your elected officials, your alderman, the water reclamation office, every elected official, you know, contact them and ask them to be at Broadview, 1930 Beach Street, 7am to join us for a press conference. That this fence needs to come down, that there needs to be transparency in this facility, that it should be investigated and to eventually get this facility shut down and reunite these people with their families.
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B
Yeah. And I mean, not to belabor the point and show the video over and over again. But, I mean, what did it feel like in that moment? I mean, he. He literally picked you up and threw you to the ground. I mean, I can't imagine what was going through your mind at that moment.
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A
Yeah, it's really surreal to see it from, like, 20 different angles. I had a bunch of people after being like, I got it on camera. Do you want to see it? I was like, not. Not really. But this is. It wasn't surprising. This is how ICE treats us. This is how they treat immigrants. So much worse than this. From other angles, you can see me literally in the air. This wasn't just being, like, brought to the ground gently, literally thrown. I have a giant bruise on my ass because of it. That's.
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B
I was going to ask. It looked like you could have broken your tailbone or something.
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A
Yeah. If I were older or had some other disability. Absolutely. It is a miracle that I wrestled so much with my brother as a kid because I knew to tuck my chin. If my head had hit the concrete of that force, it would have split open.
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B
Yeah. And so it was not just this. This. This week ago Friday incident. This past Friday. There was a. There was an altercation there. There were protesters out. It sounds like they don't want the protesters there.
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A
They don't want the protest.
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B
Earth to Ice. I mean, we're allowed to protest in the streets. It's our, you know, our American right to protest. If we want to gather on a public corner and wave signs and say, you know, buzz off, Counterpoint.
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A
Jim, have you considered they don't give a damn about our rights?
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B
I think that that's just. You're probably right about that now. You are right about that.
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A
I have been to so many protests. I know plenty of other people who have a lot of press have been at protests that have been very chaotic and intense, especially during, you know, 2020 BLM protests, even riots that press and people have been witnesses to. Every single person I have talked to that I have protested with, that I've been alongside of these protests were completely gobsmacked at just how intense it is, how unlawful, how excessive it is. It is a war zone. Rand Paul called Chicago a war zone. That couldn't be farther from the truth, but Broadview is. And they don't give a damn about the Geneva Conventions. Every single time I come home, I have to strip down my clothes at the door and put them in the washing machine while I'm coughing because there's still tear gas all over them. We have had to, you know, have medics at these protests because people, chemical munitions are deployed against fellow Americans. And actually this past Saturday, so people went out to protest. And I had to publicly say, you know, for people that are not accustomed to this, I cannot in good conscience advise you to go without telling you of the risks. I personally did not. Because ICE is also holding the town of Broadview hostage. They said that if protesters showed up, they would terrorize the residents of Broadview. So this Friday, 7 to 9am, 7am will be having a press conference and we encourage every elected official in Illinois to show up and stand with us. You either stand with the people or you stand with ice.
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B
And Kat, I mean, speaking of what you were saying a few moments ago, you know, Republicans saying that Chicago is a war zone, it's, that's nuts. But Trump is serious about this. Apparently over the weekend we saw, you know, militarized looking ICE and border patrol officers descending on the city. And there was this crazy incident that went viral, almost like yours, where there was a bicycle delivery guy, we have that video, and he was, I guess, saying some stuff to the ICE officers and they tried to run after him. I don't know if you saw this. This took place over the weekend. And I guess they're just, they could be in better shape. I suppose maybe that's part of the problem here. But it's. We've seen this in D.C. where you see these guys, these National Guard members. This is, this is something that Trump wants to spread all over the country.
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A
Yeah, they want terror. They want to distract you from the things this administration is doing, like cutting Medicaid, like the Epstein files, all of this. And they're willing to put every American in danger to do so. And at the same time, it doesn't mean that just because of distraction, we can't recognize what the distractions are doing. The distractions are hurting people. They're killing people. Someone was shot dead in Chicago during being. After being pulled over by ice. And I fear at the Broadview facility, if this fence is not torn down, if we do not have proper oversight, if these agents are not held accountable, someone will die. Multiple people will probably die. Frankly, it is a miracle that no one has during these protests yet.
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B
Yeah, and I saw your campaign launch video, or it's the video that you have pinned to your X account where you say it's time for Democratic leaders to quote, I think, grow some fucking spines. I think. Is the quote there? Something along those lines? There's a government shutdown looming here in Washington. What Should Democratic leaders do? I mean, to me, and we were talking about this the other day on my show. I don't know if, if you're in the Democratic leadership, why you would want to go along with what Trump is dishing out right now.
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A
Yeah, here's the thing. A government shutdown will hurt people, undoubtedly. But people know that Republicans are in power. And I think the most powerful thing Democrats can do right now, without the House, without the Senate, without the Supreme Court, without the presidency, is say, we are not going to be a party to your inhumane ideas for funding this country. We are not going to say it's okay to harm millions of people to fund your Christo nationalist agenda. And then not just saying that, because saying isn't enough anymore. And I think that's what a lot of our leaders need to understand. Words are not enough. Strongly worded letters are not enough. Snappy tweets are not enough. You need to back that up with action. What I would really love to see is the Democratic Party using its immense resources to help people on the ground. So my campaign, a lot of what we do is we try to use our campaign resources to not only reach out to voters, but materially improve their lives. So our campaign office, where I'm sitting right, right now, doubles as a mutual aid hub. People can come in to get food, water, toiletries, books, hygienic products, diapers, baby formula, all of that stuff. And it helps people come in. It gets volunteers interested. It also is just what I think people should do if they want to represent the country. And in 2024, I was like, we are spending so much money on what amounted to a Democratic loss. Think of how many food banks that could stock, how many clinics could be funded, how many, how much college debt could be paid off if Democrats went into communities and said, I know this government shutdown sucks, but we are here to stock your food bank. We are here to fund your local clinic. We are here to help you, no strings attached, as this president abuses you, as Republicans abuse us. I can't imagine a better thing to do. Just as representatives, as someone that is supposed to be a servant of the people, but also politically, like this seems like a no brainer to me, but I guess consultants just really have to get their paycheck.
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B
Yeah, there's that. They do like those paychecks. That's true. I mean, to me, you know, why, you know, the question has to be asked for, you know, like you were saying a few moments ago, Republicans are in charge of the White House. They're in charge of both houses of Congress. So if the government shuts down, it's. It's mainly because they could not marshal the votes to get this thing passed. But if they need Democratic votes, I mean, to me, right there, you have leverage. So why, you know, why allow Trump to continue to militarize American cities? I mean, just over the weekend, the state of Oregon had to suit the Trump administration because he's trying to send in military assets into Portland. I mean, militarizing Portland, Oregon, for, For Pete's sake. I mean, these ice rates that are just completely out of control. It just seems to be the Democrats have some levers. They should have a checklist of things that they're going to insist on in order to offer up some votes, it seems to me. I'm just, I'm just saying that. Your thoughts on that.
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A
Yeah, I mean, it seems like that's what you would think if you had common sense. It does feel like a lot of our leadership is allergic to the idea of leverage. One of the reasons I decided to run is because I'm sick of this idea that we have to compromise on basic human rights. You know, I grew up Republican, obviously I'm very progressive now. That was what happened when I was exposed to, like, once I had friends in high school, I moved cities to somewhere that was less segregated by income, and I had friends that were much smarter than I was, who couldn't afford college. And I was like, oh, maybe Ronald Reagan wasn't right about everything, but I understand that there are a lot of people out there that want what is best for their family. There are always going to be people that are bigoted and suck, but there are a lot more people that just want what's best for their family. And if they live in especially media ecosystem that just tells them to be afraid, that just tells them that this or that or that is true. When it's not, they don't know anything else. And, and so compromise can be a real thing, but we have to agree on a base, a base of basic human rights that everyone deserves to afford housing, groceries and healthcare, that everyone deserves to live their lives, no matter who they love, who they are, how they were born. We can't compromise on that. And compromise isn't the idea of getting your hand cut off and being grateful they left you your pinky. And that's where I feel like a lot of the party's at right now.
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B
Yeah, I mean, and I think to some extent, Trump wants this shutdown. I think the people around him Want this shutdown. Apparently, Russ Vogt was on Steve Bannon show earlier today saying it may be necessary to shut down the government in order to do what they want to do. So people need to understand, you know, it's the, the arsonists are somewhat in charge right now. And it's not exactly, you know, Democrats can't exactly put out the fire here if they're determined to just do what they're going to do. But you were mentioning why you got into this campaign. Why did you decide to do this? You're 26 years old. A lot of 26 years. I mean, I, when I was 26 years old, I was thinking about my next keg party or, you know, where we're meeting with friends after work. If I did have a job at that time. I think I had a job at that time. What. What made you want to do this?
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A
So I'm a researcher and journalist that covers the far right. I started my career at Media Matters. I got laid off after Elon Musk's lawsuit and did freelance work for Mother Jones, the TEO News, some stuff in my personal capacity. I realized in about 2023 when I was at Media Matters, that a lot of people get their videos. So I started making these video explainers, talking about what I was seeing during my work hours because I was watching Fox News seven hours a day, every single day. So I was like, hey, this is why your unhinged uncle thinks that 80,000 IRS agents are going to show up at his house and audit him at gunpoint. And they kind of took off. And I realized that there is not just an illiteracy of new media in our political leadership, but there's a huge illiteracy in the far right. And understanding how the far right controls a lot of our politics right now, like, Tucker Carlson was one of the most influential people in politics, not just because he had a show, but because of the power he held over the gop. And what was going on on his show showed what was going to be mainstream for the rest of the party. A lot of people don't realize that when Kevin McCarthy had like 15 votes to become speaker, it wasn't just because his party members were upset with him. It's because Tucker Carlson listed demands for Thomas Massie to be put in charge of a frank church style committee. I believe on Covid misinform and for the January 6th footage. And until McCarthy caved to those demands, he didn't get the speaker vote. I am. I and my colleagues have been used as a dry run for what is happening to the federal government. I was deposed by Elon Musk for my work and mean tweets last October. And we have told them time and time again. We told party leadership about January 6, how bad it was going to be before it happened, about COVID misinformation, the big lie where DEI and CRT and transphobia was going to lead and no one has listened. And I got sick of waiting around for someone else to do something. So I'm running a campaign the way I think it should be run. We're a grassroots campaign. We use our resources to help people. Right now I talk honestly and transparently. We're trying to change how campaign fundraising is done with live streams and bringing the apolitical into the political like video games, knitting, board game nights, public service. We do a lot of beach and park cleanups and being unable apologetic about my views and what I think is right.
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B
And you got to be on independent media too, which is why we're glad you're here, I guess. Some other thoughts I was curious if you had on you mentioned Tucker Carlson and you know, to me, Charlie Kirk is part of this conversation too. And what's happening on the far right with a lot of younger Americans, Gen Z Americans. Why is it. And feel free to push back on the premise of my question. Why is it that it. It seems that so many in Gen Z are sort of caught up in this far right political moment. And, and I mean, because it seems to me that that progressives, they may not be losing that battle, but they are kind of up against the ropes a little bit in terms of trying to get people's attention in Gen Z. Is that a fair way of putting it? How would you put it?
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A
You know, I wouldn't necessarily say it's progressives that are having trouble. I would say it's the party and these entrenched systems in politics. So like in 2012, 2013, Steve Bannon really noticed that our culture punishes masculinity, that it punishes vulnerability. More like that it says that masculinity just has to be about what you can produce and how many people you could beat in a fight and how many women you can have sex with. And really capitalized on the incel movement and anger of men who feel like there is no place to be vulnerable and so they have to become hard. And so that is where we've gotten this kind of supercharged Engine of radicalization from 4chan to now X formerly known as Twitter to this like Andrew Tate type figures and Things like that.
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B
Yeah.
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A
What's really happening with Gen Z, though, is a lot of these spaces were pioneered by like loose networks of people that were just really enthusiastic on the Internet and then commandeered by people like Steve Bannon. And unfortunately, a lot of the Democratic Party was not prepared for that and thought that what we're doing now is fine and if we just keep going through this idea that, you know, the vote blue no matter who, which don't get me wrong, I have no interest in Republicans being in power, but we need to hold our, our leaders accountable. And yeah, seeing that we'll just vote no matter what that leader does is a real quick way to get a dictatorship. That is exactly what the right does with Republicans. Means that these online spaces have been, have been monopolized by people like Bannon, but also like billionaires, like Big Tech. And then I was, you know, one of the creators of the dnc, one of the credentialed creators, and it became very clear that if we did not go exactly by the party line that we would not be given access to campaign surrogates. And I understand the hesitancy to expose yourself to possible vulnerability or criticism, but one thing you can say about the Republican Party and their media game is that a lot of people, including Charlie Kirk, including Ben Shapiro, are willing to criticize the, the party. And that gives legitimacy to an audience that's like, hey, our government's kind of messed up, right? Oh, you also have a problem with that. And if you're just trying to pretend everything's hunky dory, then your audience isn't going to resonate. So there are tons of progressive creators and journalists and influencers or whatever you want to call them online that capture a lot of Gen Z attention. But on top of the willingness, like the institutional support from people like Peter Thiel for far right media.
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B
Yes.
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A
And also this just deluge of money from Big Tech and trying to make themselves kings and aligning with people like Peter Thiel, that means that a lot of the Internet is captured by this ideology. And it's really on Democrats to realize that independent media and moderation, when it comes to things like everything that inspires mass shootings, does need to have some criticism. And it can't just be worries about being critiqued on your own, because if you're worried about being criticized, then you shouldn't be elected.
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B
Yeah, that's a great point. And it makes me wonder whether, you know, our algorithms, you know, especially for young people, are kind of dominated by these far right Figures. Because you see this on Tick Tock all the time.
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A
Tick Tock's gonna change its algorithm for that.
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B
Exactly. Whether, okay, whether these far right figures are earning that dominance in, in our algorithms and in these, in these social media spaces, or if, if they're just being kind of weaponized by these billionaires, these tech billionaires who have taken over these platforms and they're. It's all sort of contrived and rigged in their direction. I mean, do you know what I mean? Like, yeah, I think it's a very big Worry, very big concern.
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A
100. And like, the way that I say, well, first off, you look at places like Twitter, everything you see there is fake. If you look at a viral post, like, check to see the views versus likes versus shares versus bookmarks, like, it's so much of it is fake. And it's there to make Elon Musk feel like he has friends, which he doesn't. But I always like to say that Republicans play comms like communications on easy mode, because fear is the most primal human emotion. And when you are scared, people feel like they need solutions. And Trump comes in and he says, I have solutions and they're bad solutions and they're stupid solutions. But he says, I have solutions. In comparison, you have. In 2024. We heard a lot from Biden about, like, the stock market's great and like, I'm better than the other. Exactly. And people aren't feeling that. Just because the stock market's great doesn't mean that most people are actually having a good time out here. I know I'm not. And so I think really what it is, it's like this manufactured easy mode type communication strategy where if you get people afraid, that is how you can most easily influence them. And the thing about fascism is eventually, I would say it's antithetical to the human condition because eventually anger and pain will always outweigh fear. But we want to minimize as much pain as possible. We want to help make sure the fewest number of people get, get hurt in the meantime.
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B
Yeah, I just saw a viewer comment, somebody saying, oh, the DNC should not have run off David Hogg. And it makes me wonder, if you get in there, if you, if you get elected to Congress, whether you're a little worried that the party establishment might say, you know, hey, we don't want all these rabble rousers in here, you know, you got to toe the line, and so on. And it seems to me, I mean, I've seen people like Maxwell Frost be very successful He's. He's a very dynamic figure, it seems to me in the Democratic Party, there are folks like him, but it's. It seems difficult these days to navigate that kind of stuff. But I guess you got to get elected first and worry about that.
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A
Yeah, step one, get elected. But I think step two is I don't want to do this forever. And I think that's actually a strength. I want to. I have publicly pledged I will not serve more than five terms, you know, even if that. I want to get in, get some fascists out, do some good, and go back to hanging out with my cat. And the reason I'm running is because there are so few people in Congress that understand the right. And I do. But I think what we really need are leaders that don't spend all their time fundraising. We need leaders that are willing to put their ass on the line and say, if I don't get elected again, that's democracy. That's fine. What I need to do is actually represent my values and my constituents values. And so a lot of this campaign is kind of experimental in that regard, and if elected, so will my, you know, time as a congressperson, and we'll see if it works.
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B
Well, Kat, good luck out there. Really appreciate it and. And really admire your courage and bravery. Getting out there and, you know, repeatedly getting throttled by these goons. I mean, it just seems to me like, you know, these guys weren't raised right. Somebody needs to grab them by the ear and say, you don't treat a lady like that. And I know they shouldn't be treating human beings like that, so, I mean.
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A
To be fair, Jim, I'm pretty scary.
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B
I know. It's true. When you put your hair up in a ponytail, it's. It is. It is rather intimidating, but. Cat, really appreciate. There it is. One more time. My gosh. You know, yikes. I. You know, there's a part of me that wants to go up to this guy and, like, tell him, I'm gonna call your mother, because this is.
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A
Yeah. Only states was there. His mother would be so mad.
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B
Yeah.
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A
There's a reason they cover their faces.
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B
My mom would definitely smack me if I did that.
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A
It's just.
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B
No question. And she used to use the ring finger as I is. As she used to threaten. But anyway, that was a different time. We won't get into that. Cat, great to see you. Thanks so much. Really appreciate. Good luck in the campaign. Keep us posted.
- [25:15]
A
Thanks for having me. Absolutely.
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B
All right. Good to see you. All right, take care. And it's a cat. Abu Ghazali, Abu Ghazale. If you're wondering if I could pronounce it correctly, I did say it. Kat, that was terrific. Thanks so much. Let's bring in former Pentagon spokesman Chris Maher. He is standing by. And Chris, great to see you. One of the stories that has been percolating and it's about to, I guess, come to the forefront here in the next 24 hours or so, and it's shown up in a lot of the comments among my viewers and subscribers and so on, is what the hell is Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth planning to do? Not that right there in the next day or two when they, they apparently they're bringing all these generals to Quantico. I can just give the folks at home a little bit of, you know, a little bit of the backstory here. But this is according to Axios, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth's summoning of senior military leaders to Virginia for a Tuesday meeting has bewildered military and congressional officials. Trump has added to the mystery. This is according to Axios by announcing he's also going to attend this event. It's going to be held down at Quantico has a little precedent, of course. And I saw the New York Times reporting, Chris, that I mean, basically generals are coming from all around the world to this, which is extraordinary. And it comes as, as Hegseth has been threatening to basically get rid of a lot of these four star generals and at the same time he's militarizing these cities. I'm seeing a lot of connections here and wondering what you see in all of this. You were, you were at the Defense Department as one of the main spokespersons there.
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C
Yeah. Yeah. So bewilderment, I think a lot of questions are being asked about what is going on. You're right. They're going to have to fly in from all over the world. I mean, this is a meeting that's going to be from one star general up to four star generals, of which there are hundreds around the country. You're talking Germany, you're talking Korea, Japan, Hawaii, you know, even throughout the United States. So even just the cost to the taxpayer is, is enormous. And I can tell you, two and a half years in the Pentagon, this is basically unprecedented. We would call senior leadership meetings. The secretary would have them twice a year basically toward the, toward the beginning of the year and toward the end of the year. But even those were just the commanders of the combatant commands, so 11 sort of regional commanders. The secretary's senior Political leadership. So under secretaries, the, the secretaries of the army, the Navy, the Air Force and that sort of thing, and then some of the other political appointees. But even then, he would send out an agenda with plenty of weeks notice, talk about what we're going to talk about, that sort of thing. To make sure that people were prepared. He sent this out. Nobody had any idea what was going on. You know, when you have somebody like Pete Hegseth at the top, that's already mismanaging things, that's already brought so much chaos to, to this place, what our men and women in uniform want is stability and certainty. And this just added more chaos and confusion and questions to what would actually be going down tomorrow. So it sounds like now it's sort of turning into a pep rally, which is certainly the last thing we need from our political leadership with the men and women in the United States military.
- [28:48]
B
Yeah, I mean, they're saying it's sounding like a pep rally. Trump wants to go down there, and I guess he wants to have the generals applauding him. I think that's what it is. There is something a little bizarre and Kim Jong Un, like, you know, North Korea, like in assembling the military leaders and having them applaud the Dear Leader, I mean, that's, that's disturbing in and of itself. If that's as if that's all it is, I guess maybe we'll, we'll, we'll escape here a bit unscathed. But I'm concerned that there's war going on here, especially when Hegseth is. Has been threatening to continue to shrink down the ranks of the commanding generals that we have in the United States military. He's already done that so far. And at the same time, you know, Trump is talking about invading yet another Democratic city. I mean, this was just over the weekend. He's talking about going into Portland, Oregon, and the state of Oregon and the city of Portland have sued the Trump administration to stop it from deploying National Guard troops there. And the suit names Trump, Hegseth, Kristi Noem and others. And, you know, my concern is, is that these generals are being assembled here to send a message like, we're going to continue to do this. We're going to continue to militarize these cities. The mayors and the governors are not going to like it, and we're going to do it anyway, and we need you guys to be on board with this. I don't know. I mean, maybe that's the message being sent, the implicit message being sent. What's your sense of it.
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C
I, I think that's, I, I think that's right. I think the message that is being sent is you report to me and you're gonna do what I tell you to do. And it started as a meeting that Pete Hegseth was running. And, you know, he's always had a problem of credibility with the brass and with the uniform inside the Pentagon age because he has no management experience. And the little management experience that he had leading into his time at the Pentagon, he mismanaged two non profits and drove them into the ground. He had a history of allegations of sexual assault. He had a history of allegations of drinking problems. You know that.
- [30:56]
B
Right.
- [30:57]
C
Just led to this kind of story that this guy was not ready for this job. Right. And since he's been in, it's just been chaos and dysfunction. You have signal gate, you have any number of things that has shown he's not ready to meet the moment. And so I think this was very intentional by him to sit down the top brass at the Department of Defense and remind them, you work for me with the veiled threats of potentially consolidating the number of generals that exist in the first place, making sure they know if they don't get in line, their job might be on the line. You know. But to your point, there's a lot going on in the world and these guys just continue to show that they're not laser focused on what they need to be focused on. Our strategic competition. Our biggest threat is in the Indo Pacific with China. You never hear these guys talk about China.
- [31:50]
B
That's right.
- [31:51]
C
They're talking about invading our cities or militarizing our cities. President Trump, who somehow wants the Nobel Peace Prize, starts blowing up ships coming from Venezuela. He still hasn't been able to put an end to the war in Gaza. He still hasn't been able to put a war, an end to the war in Ukraine, both of which he said he'd do by day one. And so it just seems like these guys are distracted by anything other than what they need to be focused on, which is the threat that exists in China.
- [32:21]
B
Yeah, no, that's so true. And, and today he had Prime Minister Netanyahu over at the White House and they had this bogus press conference, which ended up not being a press conference conference because they didn't take any questions. And, and, and they said that Netanyahu is signed onto this ceasefire plan, but they didn't want to answer any questions about it, which always says to me, it's half baked and they're not ready to answer questions about it yet.
- [32:43]
C
Yeah, I, I don't know that it's ready for showtime. And I'm, I, I'm sure the, the devil is in the details. You know, what I saw was a plan that worked for the United States and for Israel and for President Trump, Trump hugging B.B. netanyahu. But there's already reporting that's starting to emerge from the New York Times and others that Hamas is unlikely to accept this deal for a number of reasons detailed in the plan that they're not going to want to sign on to. So to, to get to peace, we need to sit people down at the negotiating table and we need to hammer it out. We can't just sit down with one side and, and try to resolve it that way. Because I think Netanyahu, if you watched his UNGA speech last week, if you've heard his rhetoric, he's not, he's not really ready to settle, you know, and he's ready to continue to take it to Hamas and continue to destroy Gaza if he doesn't get what he wants. And so to, to go out with what feels like a half baked plan that's not going to get us across the finish line is just another example of, of this administration not doing things the right way.
- [33:49]
B
And I've got to wonder what they're thinking inside the Pentagon right now as Trump is expanding this militarization to other cities. I don't know if you speak to people at the Pentagon still privately, but you know, in the, in the defense community here in Washington, what are you hearing from people? You know what, anecdotally, even the anxiety that must, there must be so much anxiety. I hear it myself talking to folks in this community about what's happening over at the Pentagon. It just seems, feels like things are coming unraveled.
- [34:22]
C
They didn't sign up, you know, to serve in the United States military, to patrol United States streets. We have law enforcement who are there to protect and serve our United States communities. And, and that's what they're there for. The United States military is, is to go out and defend our country elsewhere. And so yeah, I think people are really discouraged. I mean, here in Washington D.C. you know, there was no tangible difference other than it totally crushed the economy when the National Guard came into town, you know, and quelled people from wanting to even walk outside because they felt so scared and intimidated. And, and so, yeah, I think it's again, just the, the wrong focus on the wrong things by this administration to try to prove Political points instead of use our United States military for what it's intended to at a very dangerous time, we're living in, in the midst of one of the, like, most dangerous and complicated and intense moments in, in our national security, in our nation's history. You know, and these guys can just not keep their eye on the ball to save their lives. And you're hearing reports, you know, they're talking about Portland, people on the ground, important, it's perfectly peaceful and quiet out there. They don't need this militarization in their cities. But Trump knows that he can score political points by focusing on crime and, and using the levers of power that he has to, to extend that power and try to score political points. And that's what this is.
- [36:01]
B
Yeah. Not to ask you a difficult question, but, I mean, one of the viewers just chimed in and said, do you think that any of these generals will push back and resist? And I mean, it seems to me that's, that's a career ending decision for, for these generals if, if they do it. But what's your sense of it? I mean, there's also the, the idea that the Defense Secretary should also push back against the President of the United States when the President is doing something that's stupid. And I'm sure there were times that Lloyd Austin said to Joe Biden, I don't think so, sir. You know, that's what you're supposed to do. And that's why you put heavy hitters in these jobs, not, you know, morning show anchors 100.
- [36:45]
C
And, you know, sometimes the President listened to Secretary Austin's advice and took it. Sometimes he listened to it and he didn't take it, and he went in another direction. But then it became Secretary Austin's job to enact the President's direction in, in those moments. Right. With Hegseth. Your point exactly. And we've seen this across the administration. Of course, the, the, the people in the highest positions of power in our cabinet are all Trump lackeys and are there because Trump knows that he, that they will do exactly what he tells them to do. There's no the difference with Secretary Hegseth. On top of that, Secretary Hegseth wouldn't know what to do anyway because he doesn't have the background and experience to actually do this job. And so we're kind of between a rock and a hard place. Or I should say the men and women who are serving in uniform are between a rock and a hard place. To your point, they could stand up, they could speak out, but they most certainly would lose their jobs. And so I think probably what a lot of them are wrestling with is do I grind this out? Do I work behind the scenes to do what I can to make as much of a difference that I can? What gives me hope in these moments when there is so much chaos and unraveling, as you put it, taking place is remembering the men and women that I served with each and every day and the meetings that I sat through with the men and women who were in those meetings. They are incredible, tremendous examples of what service and sacrifice to country should be. A lot of these guys are simply American heroes, and they're there to serve their country as best as they can. And I, you know, I don't want to speak for them, but I have to imagine that there are a lot of them sitting in those meetings really wrestling with how to take these conversations and these orders and the direction that they're given and, and move out on it or, or not, and how to kind of artfully work around that in a way that's both comfortable. Comfortable to them, but also meets the standard that they're supposed to meet as. As men and women in uniform who swore an oath to. To the Constitution. So, yeah, I know a lot of them wrestle with it every single day. And I, you know, I, I think of them often because it's. It's an impossible situation that a lot of them are in.
- [39:10]
B
And Chris, I gotta ask you about this. These, these new press restrictions that Hegseth and his people want to put in place. This is how the AP puts it. The Pentagon says it will require credentialed journalists at the military headquarters to sign a pledge to refrain from reporting information that has not been authorized for release, including class of unclass, including unclassified information. And journalists who don't abide by the policy risk losing credentials that provide access to the Pentagon. And I, you know, that's according to the Associated Press. I mean, it is. Talk about North Korea. This is bizarro Twilight Zone, nutty world that we're talking about, that the news organizations would be put in this position. But what was your response when you, when you saw that? Because you've been, you know, dealing with the press and you had to deal with the press over at the Pentagon. And reporters are annoying and they are frustrating and they get stuff wrong and you have to call them and chew them out and stuff like that. But that's the job. Like, if you don't like that job, then don't do it to kick, you know, kick People out if they don't abide by these ridiculous, like, authoritarian restrictions, to me, is just nuts.
- [40:17]
C
Yeah, it is nuts. So press operations was under me when I was at the Pentagon. I was in charge of kind of overseeing what, whatever this process is that they're going through there now. And you're right, the press can be annoying. Sometimes. They ask annoying questions. The Pentagon is one of the few places in government where reporters can come and knock on your door and have a conversation, and there's not really a lot of places for you to hide, you know, but that's the great thing about it. It's, it's a symbol of our democracy in action. And especially in a place like the Pentagon, where almost a trillion dollars in taxpayer money goes to where we ask the men and women who work there to put their lives on the line for their country. The American people deserve to know what their United States military is doing each and every day. And, and the press asks those questions on behalf of the American public. So just because you don't like the questions that they ask, just because they're tough questions to answer, just because you don't want them to know about everything that you're doing, doesn't mean that you just shut that down. And we've seen it sort of systematically from day one. They started off by kicking out NBC and the New York Times and CNN and a few others out of their workspaces, which they pay for, by the way. The, the, they haven't had a press briefing. They've had, I kind of one hand the number of press briefings they had. They've, they've had since January 20th. When I was there, we had two on camera press briefings every week and then one off camera press briefing. So three a week to make sure that even if we didn't have a lot going on, reporters had a chance to ask questions about the many events going on around the world and how we could handle them. Sometimes they got access to classified information, but I can tell you that every single time that a reporter was dealing with information that was classified, they handled it really responsibly. They came to us, we had a discussion. Sometimes they withheld information that would have put lives in danger had they published it. And so these are men and women who, many of whom have covered that building for decades. They know what they're doing. They know how to handle information, serious information, very carefully and responsibly.
- [42:39]
B
And I assume many of them understand the Pentagon better than Pete Hexath, by the way.
- [42:43]
C
Well, that's for sure. I can guarantee that. So the systematic kind of rollback, lack of. Of access to information and. And choking off the press from having access to senior leadership is just, frankly, unaccess. Unacceptable. One of the arguments that they've been making is that the Pentagon is a secure facility. And there's a lot of classified spaces throughout the Pentagon.
- [43:09]
A
Right.
- [43:10]
C
Reporters aren't allowed in those places. But to not let them walk down the hall just as a tour can or anybody else, it just. It just doesn't make any sense. Of course we're not going to let them into classified spaces. We never have and we never would. But just to not let them walk down the hall because you no longer trust the press and what they're up to is just completely inappropriate.
- [43:34]
B
Yeah. I mean, and it was Hegseth and a bunch of these guys in the administration who put some pretty important information on a signal chat. So, I mean, I don't know, know, you know, and then accidentally sent that information to a journalist. So, you know, maybe. Maybe they should, you know, mind their own kitchen first before going after everybody else. But, you know, it's unreal. It's just wild.
- [43:55]
C
Yeah.
- [43:56]
B
Well, Chris, really appreciate the time. Thank you very much. I knew we could count on your expertise and hope we can call on it again.
- [44:02]
C
All right, thanks, Jim. Good to be with you.
- [44:04]
B
All right. Good to be with you, too. And I mean, there's a lot that's cooking right now. Obviously, we're ticking down to a possible government shutdown. Perhaps by the time you watch this, there'll be some sort of indication one way or the other. But my sense of it right now is that it looks like we're heading towards a government shutdown. Russ Vogt, who is the OMB head, the Office of Management and Budget Director, and he's one of the architects of Project 2025. You know, when you want to know why so many thousands of employees of the federal government have been laid off, why key agencies have been shut down, why they're continuing to target federal workers and the necessary functions of government, you know, all you really have to do is look at people like Russ Vogt, Stephen Miller and so on. And Russ Vogt was on Steve Bannon's show and said that a government shutdown is probably necessary. And people need to understand that there is a. There's a plan here. The Project 2025. It's. Folks, it's still 2025. So you have to assume that Project 2025 is still being rolled out as we speak. And to Me, for the life of me, I was thinking about this over the weekend because I put out the piece last week that said, you know, unless they're going to put the pause on what ICE is doing, I don't understand why Democrats are funding this government, why they're going and offering up votes to keep the government running. But it seems to me there's a whole host of other issues that have to be called into question. Trump is now going to send the military into Portland, Oregon, for what? The Pinot Noir in the Willamette Valley? Is that what they're going after next? My Pinot? I don't think so. Oregon is one of the more idyllic states in the United States. It is a beautiful state. Portland for many years has had an unhoused population that obviously that has been in the news in Oregon. But in Oregon, state officials, local officials have been dealing with it. They don't have major crime problems in Portland, Oregon. My God. And to think that they're going to send in the National Guard into Portland, Oregon is just another example of how out of control Donald Trump is right now. He wants to send the military into Democratic cities to rattle people's cages, to spread fear, to show that he is in charge. Just today, the New York Times had a story about Russ Fode and how these are the architects of this maximalist, executive branch driven federal government that they want to see controlling Washington. And folks, with George Washington over my shoulder right here, this is not the American way. We have a system of checks and balances in this country. And to me, you know, nobody wants to shut down the government. It's going to cause a lot of headaches. It's going to cause a lot of problems. But at some point, doesn't somebody need to get this guy's attention and say, we still have a democracy left? Remember, the Republicans control the White House, Republicans control the Congress, they control the House, they control the Senate, they control the Supreme Court with a maga Supreme Court. Why is it on? How is the, how has the narrative become, oh, it's on Democrats to negotiate. You know, Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries over at the White House to negotiate with Donald Trump. Donald Trump should be negotiating with his own party. He should be negotiating with Mike Johnson and John Thune. They're the ones in charge of the House and the Senate and saying, okay, what can we give the Democrats in order to keep the government running, if that's even what they want to do? And just the other day, the White House was signaling it was reported in Politico that they want to cause the maximum amount of pain with a government shutdown. Make no mistake, folks. This is, this is part of the plan. This is part of Project 2025. It is late September of 2025, folks. Project 2025 is still rolling. So we'll keep our eyes on how that develops here in the coming moments. But it seems to me Democrats have some cards to play here. On one hand, you say we're not in charge. The American people made their decision. They voted to have a Republican president and a Republican Congress. So they should be the ones to get us out of this mess. Govern. You've been elected to govern. Govern, for Christ's sake. That's why you were put there. And if you can't put together proposals that earn Democratic votes, then, you know, tough noogies. That's the way it goes. But if Donald Trump is sending out ICE to rough people up, you know, they can't catch the guy on the bicycle. I don't know if you saw that. That was a little earlier on in the program. Now, now one of the things that they might, might want to invest in, they want to spend a little of our hard earned tax dollars. They might want to buy some, get some treadmills for the guys over at ice. Some, some ellipticals, some. Yep, yep. What are the little bicycle thingies? The pelotons, you know, get those guys, you know that one guy, there's one guy right there behind there. Well, he's carrying a lot. He's carrying a big load there. He just didn't even try to run. And listen, you know, they can't even catch this guy. My goodness, they're just. What is, what's going on here? You know, maybe tomorrow we'll redo this video with the Benny Hill music. You know, the, we needed the Benny Hill music there with, with the ICE guys chasing after the, the guy in the bicycle. But it seems to be if you're going to spend some of our hard earned money, maybe get some treadmills and some ellipticals and some pelotons over at ICE headquarters, those guys, they're not, they're not in tip top shape. They're, they're, not, they're, they're not, they're at, at ramming speed just yet. They got to get in fighting shape here. But in the meantime, it seems to me if they're the ones in charge, this is, this is the way it goes, guys. You've been elected to govern, so govern. Why are Democrats getting dragged into this I mean, Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer, they should just go down to the Capitol Grill and open up a bottle of Pinot from, from Oregon and say, you guys figure this thing out. Trump's already canceled one meeting on these guys. I would, that's what I would do. I would say, you know, smoke them if you got them. This is on you, Trump. This is your mess. You fix it. All right. Well, my thanks to Kat Abu Ghazali, Abu Ghazale, who's running for Congress in the 9th congressional district of Illinois. I'll get her name right before she is before her primary comes up next March. But I really want to appreciate her coming on the program. My thanks to Chris Maher as well for his expertise on Defense Department matters and freedom of the press. And we'll keep an eye on everything here in Washington. But in the meantime, still reporting from Washington, I'm Jim Acosta. Have a good evening. Thanks for watching.
- [52:13]
A
SA.
- [52:39]
B
Sam.