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- [00:00]
A
Up at the top of your screen.
- [00:02]
B
Yeah, I see that. I've got to work on my set behind me is one of the issues.
- [00:14]
A
Well, that's part of the charm of Substack, Jim. There we go. Now we're live. Now it's all the friends are coming back.
- [00:22]
B
The eagle has landed. Yeah. And. And I've got to work on my back background. Remember when we used to have the room Raider score during COVID and the room Raider guy would say 10 out of 10 or he would say 8 out of 10. Need more artwork. I'm getting like a 3 out of 10. Nothing.
- [00:40]
A
Well, Jim, you have the basic, which is you have, you have the right, you have the right camera set up.
- [00:51]
B
Okay.
- [00:52]
A
I maintained my room rater. I'm in my. I'm in my kids bedroom. My daughter who just graduated from college said to me, you know, dad, I'm the only one in my friend group whose dad has converted her bedroom into a TV studio.
- [01:11]
B
That's great though. It's that real thing. Real dad, you know, thing we want to get across to people. It's all good. I think it's a good thing because I. There are some children's books behind you.
- [01:21]
A
There are.
- [01:22]
B
I see some good ones back there. So that's great.
- [01:26]
A
Children's. Children's and adults.
- [01:30]
B
Children of all ages.
- [01:32]
A
Jim, one of the. And the people in the comments are doing that. We're already at almost 3,000 viewers. There's the comments folks are reminding us. And I learned this lesson when I came over to Substack after I stepped away from my CNN contract. So we have that in common. It's a very homemade, relaxed feeling. And so they like it that you have that casual backdrop.
- [02:12]
B
Okay. And I didn't put a jacket on. You have a jacket and a button down.
- [02:18]
A
True. I compromise.
- [02:21]
B
A clean sweatshirt.
- [02:23]
A
Jim, you should be aware this is the only time you and I have ever had an on air conversation that I haven't worn a necktie. So I compromise.
- [02:32]
B
This is norm casual as we're going to call it here.
- [02:35]
A
I'm very strictly of the school that you should not, you should not appear without a jacket and tie. So I've compromised for our wonderful casual substack live audience. Well, Jim, I know you're the host.
- [02:52]
B
Yeah.
- [02:52]
A
But because now we're in this new world, I get to ask you such an incredible sign off today. And of course, the whole time we've worked together, all the years we've known each other, independent, fair, but principled. That's how I describe My, my friend Jim, I gotta ask you, since we're just inviting everybody to join us, how does it feel?
- [03:20]
B
It feels really good. And, you know, obviously, you know, Norm, we love the people at cnn, and I miss them. I will miss them terribly. But, you know, I felt like I needed to say what I said today, and I got it out there, and I'm glad there's been such a positive response. That feels really good. And so, you know, listen, we're going to get through this time, and I think it's important for people to know that there is such a thing as truth. There is such a thing as truth. And that was the point I was trying to get across today. Don't give into the lies. Don't give into fear. There's a lot of fear out there right now, and I just want people to. Don't give in is the message. And part of that, Norm, I think, starts with guys like us. You know, we're going to stand up for the truth. We're going to tell people what the facts are. But at the same time, I think there's a responsibility on all the folks who are watching here to hold on as well and to hang in there and hang tough as well. And that was part of the message I wanted to get across.
- [04:32]
A
Well, I think you did it brilliantly. And Jim and I are friends, so I'm not giving away any secrets. When I told him, come on in, Jim. To the world of independent media. The water's fine. Yeah, the water's fine.
- [04:50]
B
Yeah. And this is kind of a new experience for me, too. I mean, you know, my thing is like, hey, I don't want to, you know, just jump on my phone and do this. But you. I've had lots of people say, no, no, no, that's, that's exactly what everybody's doing right now. So it's, it's completely fine, and it makes it more real and unvarnished. And I think that's. That's what makes it fun. You know what I mean? You don't have to be stilted in our perfectly lighted studios and speaking the King's English at all times. You know, we could, we could just, we could bro out, I guess, or something like that.
- [05:22]
A
Norm, you know, one of, one of the. Jim, I'm getting messages from our CNN colleagues, and I still think of them as colleagues and how much they appreciate the two of us talking. One of the great things. Friends. Substack Friends. One of the great things about working with Jim and really, the best anchors do this is he would bring me on, we'd have a conversation usually about a democracy or rule of law issue.
- [05:56]
B
Yeah.
- [05:57]
A
And then we get into the conversation. He tears up the prepared questions, he listens, he follows the conversation. He follows the conversation where it goes. So I think the Acosta, I think the Acosta breakaway is going to be one of those signal moments in the history of these first days of, to me, what can only be described as a full on autocratic, full on autocratic assault by Donald Trump on the rule of law. It's objective. There's no two sides. Well, Donald Trump says the Constitution does not protect birthright citizenship. The right of people who are born here to be citizens. Citizens. No, it's not Donald. It's not what Donald Trump says. It's what the Constitution says.
- [06:54]
B
Right.
- [06:55]
A
There's truth and there's trimming.
- [06:58]
B
So that president does not decide what is in the Constitution and what is not. Constitution. That's right.
- [07:04]
A
Or the laws. The big news of today, if we were still together at our former place of employment, we might be talking about the staggering assault of the president, a constitutional Article 2 officer, on the Article 1 prerogatives of Congress. Congress has the power of the purse. In the past 24 hours, President Trump seized again, unconstitutional, like birthright citizenship. He seized the power of the purse from Congress, says, no, I'm freezing all spending, Jim, it's not up to him. Well, Congress told him to spend. To spend that.
- [07:46]
B
And Norm, I mean, there's a human element to this as well. And I was talking about this with Rosa Delora, the congresswoman from Connecticut, who, as it turns out, as I was interviewing her, she was in a school that has lots of at risk kids, kids who need free breakfast, breakfast programs, Head Start type programs, after school programs. And those are all programs that could potentially be impacted, could very well be impacted by this maneuver. And so, you know, for all the talk that this election was about putting food on the table, you shouldn't be in the business of taking food off of the table of our children in this country. And so that has to be called out. And so, yes, there's a legal aspect of this. There are autocratic tendencies that have to be called out. But my God, there's a human element of this. How can you do this to kids to make a political point?
- [08:41]
A
How do you. I never get to ask Jim the questions except before our segments, after our segments and when we talk as friends substack viewers. So I'm going to ask him 1. 1 now. How do you struggle with the Balance between honestly reporting what's going on.
- [09:01]
B
Yeah.
- [09:02]
A
Being objective. Right. There is an element for objectivity, but also when, when what's happening crosses those lines and it's like everybody's pretending the emperor has clothes on. Well, Donald Trump says he has the authority to freeze the spending, whereas the litigants. There was a big injunction today by the good folks, the good folks at democracy Forward secured. How do you strike that balance in a time of rising autocracy?
- [09:36]
B
Well, I mean, you know, the great Christiane Amanpour has said, don't be neutral, be truthful. And I think there's a lot to be said for that. And I have said, I said this in the past when I was working at the White House, when I wrote my book, and I'll say it now. There are not two sides of a story when it comes to what is right and what is wrong. And sometimes you just have to call it out. And taking food away from little kids is wrong. That is something that just about anybody, Republican, Democrat, independent, whatever, should be able to call that out. There is such a thing as the truth. And my concern is, and you were talking about, you know, autocrats and so on. And one of the reasons why I spoke out today is that you can't speak truth to power if those in power can crush the truth. And that is why it is incumbent upon us, not just you and I, Norm, but all the people who are watching, all the people who are leaving comments to insist on the truth. We are not going to give in to lies in this country. And it doesn't matter how big the megaphone is. You know, where Donald Trump is sitting at the White House at any given moment, how much support Elon Musk wants to give him on places like X and so on. There are still we the people, and we the people demand the truth full stop.
- [10:59]
A
And I think it was, I know it was such a transformative moment. And you were supported and encouraged in doing this, I know, including by Jeff Zucker and others. It was such a transformative moment when Donald Trump crossed that Rubicon in his first term. And you would stand there in that briefing room and follow that principle. And even for me, I will tell you, the first time I saw you do that, I thought, oh, that's so different than, you know. And I know you must have. I know that it must have been uncomfortable. But of course, you turned out to be the first. And the rest of us are now following that. No phony neutrality. You actually obscure the truth. If you do that.
- [11:57]
B
I think that's right. And you can't play both sides here when it's not an even playing field. And I talked about this during the campaign. You can say what you want about this program or that program that Joe Biden, Kamala Harris and so on wanted to pursue. That's all well and good and we can have that conversation and talk about that. But when you have a candidate going out there, as Donald Trump was doing during that campaign, and talking about people as being part of the enemy within, I'm sorry, that's just un American. That is not America. And, you know, I think it's well within our rights as journalists to call that out. I know what America is. I know what it's about. And so I can say that and know. One of the illustrations that I bring up from time to time, Norm, is when Walter Cronkite went to Vietnam and and said that the war in Vietnam cannot be won. He came back, he on the CBS Evening News, he leveled with the American people, the most trusted man in America. That was what Walter Cronkite was referred to at that time. And he said that the war in Vietnam cannot be won. And Lyndon Johnson said, well, if I've lost, if I've lost Walter Cronkite, I've lost middle America. And so there is a strong tradition. I've had many conversations about this with Sam Donaldson, who used to be with ABC News. Legendary White House journalist Dan Rather, my old anchor at CBS News, he was my first anchor on the network level. They all feel the same way. That is what a true newsman, newswoman, news person does. You tell people the truth, even when it hurts.
- [13:34]
A
Well, I'm honored to call you a friend. I'm so delighted to welcome you to our substack family. We at the Contrarian my project with Jen Rubin. When Jen left the post and I departed from cnn, we launched that new project. We consider you first and foremost among the friends of our project and always delighted to be with you. And I'm so excited. I know we're gonna thank you have great, great things coming, Jim. And I'm just so trim, so tremendously excited to be a part of that.
- [14:13]
B
I think that sounds great. Let's keep the conversation going. I love it.
- [14:17]
A
Come find me anytime.
- [14:19]
B
Yeah, I will. I will certainly do that.
- [14:20]
A
Congratulations and thank you for your courage.
- [14:22]
B
Jim, thank you. And I right back at you. Really appreciate it. Thanks, Norm. Have a good night.