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- [00:00]
Jim Acosta
And welcome to the Jim Acosta show on this Monday. Starting a little bit late today. As Mike, Michael was just mentioning a few moments ago, I was taking care of my dad earlier today. And so starting a little bit later today. But Michael Cohen is with me and Michael, we gotta just jump right into this because, I mean, things are escalating very quickly out in California. I thought Trump said he wanted to end the wars. Perhaps he's preparing to ignite one here at home. ABC News reporting 700 Marines in California have been ordered to assist in LA and they're expected to arrive over the next 24 hours. The Marines are from the 2nd Battalion, 7th Marines at 29 Palms, California. You know, Trump was asked about this earlier today, apparently said, we'll see what happens. This sounds like this is the direction it's heading, Michael, and you and I have talked about this a lot in the past, that this has been the fear for some time that Trump would try to find a confrontation that he could turn into basically a clash where he could mobilize federal troops and send them into a demonstration like this to see where it could go from there.
- [01:05]
Michael Cohen
You know, Jim, I actually wrote about it at 4:00 in the morning. I called it LA mayhem, right? Trump's big, beautiful distraction. Because that's really what this is. This is not about national security. This, this isn't law and order. This is pure, unfiltered weapons grade reality show distraction. Right? And I've been down this road with him. It's a rerun of the oldest trick in the Trump playbook. Create a crisis, redefine reality, and hope that the public is too overwhelmed to notice. The man behind the curtain is full of shit. That's just where we're at.
- [01:47]
Jim Acosta
You know the problem, though? The man behind the curtain, who is full of shit, has the ability to deploy the Marines and send in the National Guard. And, you know, this is something that has not happened in over 50 years, where the President has deployed the National Guard against the wishes of a governor. And, you know, obviously that tells you how, and I hate using the word unprecedented. I think the word batshit might be more applicable here. I mean, the fact that he's doing this, he's, he's stealing for a fight. He's, he's chomping at the bit. He wants a fight. Earlier today, he said that Tom Homan should arrest Gavin Newsom. He said earlier today, I would do it if I was Tom. I think it's great. Gavin likes the publicity, but I think it would be a Great thing. This is the President. So I'm saying it's a great thing to arrest a governor.
- [02:35]
Michael Cohen
What's amazing is the follow up question by another journalist. I wish to God that you were there in that room and that you had free access to ask the, the right questions because you were so good at it. But they asked Trump what would be the criminal charge and you know, what would be the, what would be the charge that Gavin Newsom should be, you know, should be charged with? And his answer was so typical as far as a non answer answer for being a lousy governor. Right. For creating this mess.
- [03:17]
Jim Acosta
He was talking about high speed trains or something. He was getting into that.
- [03:21]
Michael Cohen
The cost overruns on the high speed trains in California and all that and the, and the wildfires and stuff like that. And you say to yourself, riot. Right. So therefore the governor said, yeah, grandpa.
- [03:35]
Jim Acosta
Needs a cookie, you know, when he can't, you know, he can't complete a thought as to how the governor could be charged without going to like his old rally routine. You know what I mean? Talk about the high speed trains and stuff. You know what I mean?
- [03:47]
Michael Cohen
Of course I know. It's a, I mean, he's sitting there and he's talking about the guy should be incarcerated because of the wildfires. Well then what about say the governor of Oklahoma or Tennessee where they have hurricanes and tornadoes and so on and houses get destroyed and people unfortunately lose their lives and not that, you know, he and Elon with Doge didn't cut fema. Right. So now let's arrest those governors too. You know what my big fear, Jim? You know what my biggest fear is?
- [04:21]
Jim Acosta
Yeah, absolutely.
- [04:23]
Michael Cohen
As I predicted, unfortunately, too many times this is a litmus test. He's trying to every, every day, every second of the day, figure out just how far, far that he could push you.
- [04:38]
Jim Acosta
Yes.
- [04:39]
Michael Cohen
How far can he go before the pushback stops him? So first he started with the National Guard. He of course, lies to the American people. President Trump lies to the American people and says that the chief of the LAPD thanked him, thanked him for doing what he did. Because without them, meaning the National Guard, things would be really bad. But now they're under control. First of all, things don't look like they're under control to me. The whole place, according to Trump, is on fire. Like it's wildfires, there's looting and killings going on and rapings and murders and every other adjective that he has in his head. Right. The same that he described Mexicans as saying, he described, described the Venezuelans the same he describes as everybody. And then you say to yourself, well, first of all, that's a lie. The LAPD chief did not, I think it's McDowell did not thank him for anything other than.
- [05:47]
Jim Acosta
They don't want the National Guard coming in. They don't want the Marines to come in. The LAPD said over the weekend that these were peaceful protests. Now, obviously, you know, you have bad apples in the crowd. You have instigators in the crowd. You have, you know, there's property damage that happens occasionally from time to time. But these are matters that the LAPD can handle. You know, this is why you have a police department with this kind of riot response capability. If something were to break out, if things were to spiral and get out of control, the LAPD can handle it. And if things get really bad, then the governor can say, yes, bring in the National Guard. But that's why we do things that way in this country.
- [06:30]
Michael Cohen
You see the destruction that's going on and the vandalism that's going on. Yeah. Somebody took a black can of spray paint and they wrote Fuck ice on the side of the wall. That to him is, that's it. I mean, that person who did that should have their hands checked.
- [06:50]
Jim Acosta
Well, but, Michael, the thing that is so glaringly obvious in all of this is that he is just trying to. He is trying to ignite the flames. Here he is the arsonist with the matches. Here he is trying to instigate things, trying to push things to the brink. So it does spiral out of the control, out of the control of the local authorities. And you have to have a federal response. That's what he wants when he's saying over the weekend, well, you can't. The protesters can't wear masks. What is he talking about? Protesters can't. Protesters can wear masks if they want to. And by the way, the ICE officers are wearing masks and are wreaking havoc all over the country, pulling the little kids away from their mixed status parents. I mean, so, I mean, when he uses language like that, when he calls the protesters insurrectionists, he knows what he's doing. He's trying to hit people's pressure points and instigate and cause trouble. That's exactly what he's trying to do.
- [07:41]
Michael Cohen
You know, and last night I was on the whole weekend, I was on four different MSNBC shows, but last night I was on with Amon Maudin and, and Carol Rampel and Antonia. And I turned around and I said to them something which came to my mind that this is all a Distraction. He's like the great frickin Houdini when it comes to politics. He doesn't want us talking about the war with Elon Musk. He doesn't want that. The big beautiful Bill or the real big piece of shit Bill. Right. Which is that bloated.
- [08:24]
Jim Acosta
He has no wins. He has no wins.
- [08:27]
Michael Cohen
Yeah, Jim, you took the words right.
- [08:29]
Jim Acosta
Out of the mouth. Go ahead.
- [08:32]
Michael Cohen
That's what I love about you. You understand me, right? He was losing. You know, and I made, I made this comment earlier on a different MSNBC show with Ollie Velshi, where I turn around, I said, when they got into the war of the platform X versus True Social, so Elon Musk put out a couple of very nasty tweets, posts, whatever they call them now.
- [09:01]
Jim Acosta
Yeah, we might as well get into it. Let's get into it. Yeah.
- [09:04]
Michael Cohen
180 million views. And I want to say that again for our listeners. 180 million views. TRUMP was losing this war bigly.
- [09:19]
Jim Acosta
Because how badly was Trump losing his mind over this? How much did that rock his world?
- [09:24]
Michael Cohen
It really rocks his world. And why? Well, here's what ultimately happened. He puts out his retort on both the X platform and also on Truth Social. And on the X platform, he gets 172,000 views versus 180 million. He knew he was losing. And the worst part is that these acolytes, enablers, sycophants that surround Trump, they actually read many of the comments. Did I? And those comments were all more favorable by a wide majority to Elon Musk than they were to Donald Trump. So that pissed him off. Then couple that with the attacks on the big beautiful bill coming in from GOP senators.
- [10:18]
Jim Acosta
Marjorie Taylor Greene was going off on it.
- [10:21]
Michael Cohen
Yeah. So he's like, okay, you see this coin? All right, which hand?
- [10:25]
Jim Acosta
Exactly.
- [10:26]
Michael Cohen
And that's what's going on here.
- [10:29]
Jim Acosta
The three Card Monty.
- [10:30]
Michael Cohen
Yeah, that's exactly what it is. It's the three Card Monty in Central Park. And all of a sudden, you know, he needs a distraction. He needs a. Trump wants to know.
- [10:41]
Jim Acosta
Do you want to buy one of these watches I got on my arm here? You know, I got.
- [10:45]
Michael Cohen
Exactly.
- [10:46]
Judd Legum
And.
- [10:46]
Michael Cohen
And that's what he needs. He needed distraction. And in order to create the right distraction, you have to create the disaster. And I think you put it in a very interesting way. It's like he brought the gasoline to the house fire. Right?
- [11:03]
Jim Acosta
That's it. He is the arsonist. He's the arsonist in chief. And I once had an advisor back in the first Trump administration who said, you know. And this was during the, you know, the whole effort to overturn the 2020 election when the advisors are starting to go, you know, rogue on Trump. And they were saying behind the scenes. This one said to me, behind the scenes, he said, the arsonist will always light the match. Trump will always light the match. He is an arsonist looking for a fire to start. And that is what he sees right now in California. The fact that this got started over what, people in a Home Depot parking lot. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. What is going on here with these ICE raids? You know, Stephen Miller is apparently losing his shit behind the scenes. That's the reporting back here in Washington. He's losing his shit behind the scenes because they can't meet these deportation numbers that they want to meet. Hello, Stephen. Earth to Stephen. Not every migrant in this country is a dangerous, violent criminal. The lie that you and Trump told during the 2024 campaign, that you're gonna round up all these criminals and gang members, you. You're not doing that. You're rounding up little kids, you're rounding up parents, you're rounding up day laborers. You failed. The mass deportation thing failed. And what is taking place right now in Los Angeles is an example of that. They need a distraction to distract everybody from the fact that this is failing.
- [12:21]
Michael Cohen
If I can just jump on your analogy of Trump being the arsonist who brings the gasoline to the bonfire, there's another aspect to that that cannot be ignored. He also always tries to make himself out to be the hero. This is classic Munchausen by proxy. He wants to light the fire, stand there, let it go ablaze, and then come in with a fire extinguisher to put it out so that everybody can praise him. It's all about the praise for the fearless leader. But he's doing something very ugly, Jim, something you and I talk about quite often offline. He's creating a crisis that rallies the base, his base, and blurs his failures.
- [13:14]
Jim Acosta
They have no wins.
- [13:16]
Michael Cohen
We all know that immigration, that this issue is one of the few that he's still polling under the 50% mark. But he's not deep in the woods like he is with the economy or with. With. With Medicare, Medicaid.
- [13:33]
Jim Acosta
His numbers are not all the way down the toilet, but they're spinning at the top of the bowl. That's where he is right now on immigration.
- [13:39]
Michael Cohen
Yeah, exactly. So he's using this, the immigration, as the distraction. And it's really terrible because. But you gotta say this to the American people, at least to those people who are coming out there, good for them. But as I also said on msnbc, if they would all leave, go home, don't give up the fight, just get off the streets, don't highways, don't do that. You would take all the power away from Trump.
- [14:16]
Jim Acosta
I agree with you.
- [14:16]
Michael Cohen
And from this, this facade, this bullshit.
- [14:21]
Jim Acosta
This is the thing that I'm most worried about, is that the last thing you want to do when we talk about the arsonist with the matches, the last thing that these protesters want to do is hand Trump more matches and gasoline. Don't do it. If there's any, you know, anybody involved with the protests or the demonstrations watching this, or if they watch it later on when the recording goes out, watches it with Michaels feeds and so on, please do not play into Trump's hands. I saw this up close and personal. When the George Floyd protests broke out in Washington and Trump tried to send the forces after those folks, they fired rubber bullets on those people, doused them with chemical agents. And at that time, you remember this, Michael, he said to Mark Esper, the Defense Secretary, at that time, can we shoot the protesters? And so that's the thing that I'm concerned about with what's happening right now in la, is that he is heading in that direction.
- [15:12]
Michael Cohen
But you know, Jim, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Did you see? I. Did you see. I saw a clip. There was a young female journalist, a reporter, yes, There on the scene. Dude, she got shot in the leg with a rubber bullet.
- [15:28]
Jim Acosta
I saw that Australian reporter, I think.
- [15:30]
Michael Cohen
It was, she's standing there with the microphone, talking. All of a sudden you hear, and you see where the bullet came from. It came from a guy that was maybe 50.
- [15:39]
Jim Acosta
Oh, you can watch it right on camera. I saw, you know, and that's the, that's the problem with this, the problem with this whole thing is that it just takes one little incident, it takes one little thing to set off, you know, a very violent situation. And Trump knows this. That's why he is throwing in the National Guard. That's why he wants to deploy the Marines. And they, they want this to spiral.
- [16:02]
Michael Cohen
Yeah, yeah, you're so right. Every time that he's in trouble, whether it's with the big beautiful Bill, whether it's with something else, with Elon Musk, he conjures up a new enemy. Immigrants, protesters, billionaires that are Democrats, tells America we should be afraid of all of them. He goes on and he floods the zone with bullshit, right? While the real fire is burning behind him. And I'm here as the American citizenry. We cannot let him fool us.
- [16:43]
Jim Acosta
And let me tell you, when he gets humbled like this, when he gets a serving of humble pie like he did with Elon Musk, that is when he lashes out. That is when he becomes his most dangerous form of himself. Remember after the George Floyd Protestant, there were those stories that he was hiding in the basement at the White House. And it was after that that they cleared Lafayette park very violently. And he had that photo op in front of St. John's Church where he held up the Bible upside down. So people need to understand that there's a pattern here. And he is going into Los Angeles and he wants to go crack some skulls. He said on Truth Social, if they spit, we will hit. This is what he's saying. This is a statement from the President of the United States concerning the catastrophic Gavin Newscomb inspired riots going on in la. I mean, this is what he says on Truth Social. Okay, if they spit, we will hit. Hello. On January 6, they were beating cops. They were tasing cops. They were beating up people like our friends Michael Fanone and Harry Dunn. And Trump pardoned them. So please spare me the bullshit about how he wants to rally around law enforcement and defend law enforcement. He betrayed law enforcement by pardoning those criminals who were violently attacking police officers in the Capitol on January 6th. So the, the hypocrisy knows no ends. But the, the fact of the matter is, is that this is a dangerous situation.
- [18:04]
Michael Cohen
This is what we have to all start calling it. Remember how I always say we have to talk like Trump and bumper sticker slogans? Fake crisis politics. That's what this is. This is fake crisis politics. And I say that not as a guess, as somebody who's lived it with the guy that's doing it right now.
- [18:29]
Jim Acosta
Yeah. And I gotta ask you about something else. A couple things. One is this big military birthday thing that he want, this dictator Kim Jong Un style birthday he wants to throw for himself on the National Mall. He's been wanting this for years, Michael. What is going on in his head? Why does he want this?
- [18:48]
Michael Cohen
So what's what inspired it is a great question, Jim. And I do actually have the answer for you. Two things. Two. Not one, but two. The first one was Bastille Day. When, when he saw that Martin, I remember him saying to me, that's right. How cool that was. He thought it was the neatest thing in the world. Like, look at all those tanks. Ours are better. Our, our men, our women, Our service members, they're better. And he goes, that would be cool. Second was Kim Jong Un doing it. You remember that? And he likes that authoritarian, that dictator thing where everybody turns their hands and they, you know, they. They salute him as they're walking by. He feels like a God. Remember, every second of every day he must have his ego stroke, otherwise he falls back into some sort of negative despair.
- [19:47]
Jim Acosta
But how disturbing is it going to be if come this Saturday when they have this dictator birthday party for him and you've got military forces on the streets in Los Angeles acting pretty much in an unconstitutional way? I mean, you have to have a serious insurrection taking place. Well, sort of like the one he instigated on January 6 for even the possibility to enter the equation that you might invoke the Insurrection act, where you might need to use federal troops in a domestic situation where you're quelling a disturbance.
- [20:25]
Michael Cohen
Well, I hate to be one that's going to say to the great Jim Acosta and, you know, Jim and I, to those of you who are about 4,000 folks with us, there really should be 100,000 with us, because that's how important this conversation is. I know Jim a very long time, probably one of the best journalists and one of the best reporters of all time. Let me be very clear. The question that he just asked, it's almost like a rhetorical question. You don't think he's thinking about any of the Marines, the National Guardsmen that are there in la? As far as he's concerned, let them open fire on everybody in la. He doesn't care. Nothing is going to interfere with his party, with his parade. Right. As the old song goes, don't rain on my parade. That's going to be the.
- [21:17]
Jim Acosta
So your theory is that this will all be over before his birthday party comes around.
- [21:21]
Michael Cohen
And if it's not, he doesn't care. Jim, he's not going to lose one second of sleep over this. He's not going to think about this for one second during the 250th anniversary of the army, which is really a ruse, a guise, so that he can actually have a birthday parade. He's not thinking about la. He's not thinking about Jim Acosta or Michael or anything other than this is my day. Look at me. As a child, I played with, you know, with metal Tonka tanks or I played with, with NASA rockets or missiles or, you remember they used to have those SCs, those rockets. Oh, yeah, up in your backyard.
- [22:08]
Jim Acosta
Right, of course.
- [22:09]
Michael Cohen
Which always ended up, somehow I had.
- [22:10]
Jim Acosta
A lot of GI Joes growing up. I had all the GI Joes.
- [22:13]
Michael Cohen
Right. I had a lot of those. Essie's rockets. Unfortunately, most of them ended up through my neighbor's window. Yeah, but now Trump has the real stuff. He's the kid playing with the real toys.
- [22:26]
Jim Acosta
Yeah, he is. And with. With the same kind of mindset. And. But, you know, one other thing I want to ask you about, Michael, before we get going is, you know, and this is something that maybe you and I have not talked about before.
- [22:39]
Michael Cohen
What was.
- [22:40]
Jim Acosta
What is his deal with Hispanic people? What's his deal with Latino people? Why. Why does he have a problem with Latino people? Because I've been trying to. I've been. I wrote about this over the weekend, too, and I've been scratching my head over this. Has any Latino screwed him over the way Elon Musk screwed him over late last week? I mean, I can't think of a Latino who's accused Donald Trump of being in the Epstein files, but Elon Musk did it. A South African immigrant. Why is he so pissed off at Latino people? This has been going on for 10 years. What's his deal?
- [23:11]
Michael Cohen
It's not. It's not specific to Latinos, to Hispanics, to Mexicans, to. He certainly has no problem with the Venezuelans, not the women, anyway.
- [23:24]
Jim Acosta
Well, yeah, that's true.
- [23:25]
Michael Cohen
They were some of his favorite at the Miss Universe Pageant. But what he has a problem with is anyone who is non white. Look at the countries that he just now banned from the United States on that travel ban. You and I talked about this in the past. I'm going to remind you. Remember when I turned, said to you, it was February of 2017, either February or March of 2017. And I went into his office and he asked me, what do you think of my travel ban? And I turned around, I said to him, permission to speak freely. So he goes, of course. I said, you're fucking kidding me, right? That's not a travel ban. That's a Muslim ban. I said, Mr. President, I said, you're in effect putting forth a policy that bans a religion from our country. I said, and the crazy thing is you actually have friends you're not even aware, but they happen to be Muslim. I said, so what are you going to do? Tell them to leave. Tell them they're not allowed into the country. I said, I don't understand. I don't understand. Steve Miller, Steve Bannon. They'll get it right the next time. I said, next time? There should be no next time. You know that. And that's why, in fact, that it ended up failing. You know, down the road, they tried to reinstate it, but it never happened.
- [24:56]
Jim Acosta
He tried over and over, and he's trying again to get it reinstated. He's trying to. He's trying to impose a new travel ban on all these different countries, non white countries, as you correctly put. And this is his deal. And to me, though, there is a pattern here. There's a pattern on his part and on Stephen Miller's part and going after Latino people. And I have to say, as much as I want everybody to be peaceful out there and be polite as humanly possible, out there on the streets protesting. Damn right. People have a right to protest over this. I mean, this is a weaponized policy of hate that Donald Trump and Stephen Miller are trying to ram down everybody's throats in this country. And to me, you know, when you round up little kids who are US citizens with cancer, as he has done, when you're ripping mothers away from their children out on the streets, like they've done with these ICE agents wearing masks, when you're going after mayors and judges and threatening to arrest governors and members of Congress and so on and so forth, I'm sorry, the jig is up. It's obvious. It is as obvious as in, as plain as the nose in your face. I mean, this is out, just out and out government sanctioned racism.
- [26:14]
Michael Cohen
It sure is. And, you know, so to those people who may not be aware, you know, Jim's background is from Cuba, right?
- [26:22]
Jim Acosta
My dad's Cuban. Yeah, absolutely.
- [26:24]
Michael Cohen
So, you know, my father is from Poland, my mom from the States, My grandmother is from Argentina, from Buenos Aires. I mean, you know, I have my great grandfather from Italy, my great grandmother from Odessa. You know, we're from all over the place.
- [26:41]
Jim Acosta
What makes this country great?
- [26:42]
Michael Cohen
And yeah, you take the words out of my mouth again, it is what makes us all great. And it's not just against nationalities and so on. He has the same issue with women. It's not just Hispanics. It's not just Hispanic men. It's the same. It's women as well, which is why it's so easy for him to be cruel to them. The separation act is taking children away from the parents, you know, taking them, separating the husbands and the wives or the children from the moms. He doesn't care because he looks at everybody as beneath him. If you are not a white male Christian nationalist.
- [27:36]
Jim Acosta
Yeah, but I raised the question. I raised the question. Have any non white person attempted to hose Donald Trump in the way that Elon Musk did last week. Elon Musk, South African immigrant, accuses the President of the United States of being in the Epstein files. I mean, I've heard, I've heard a lot of people take, you know, different potshots at Trump over the years and all sorts of forms of insults and so on, but my goodness, I mean, I, I've never heard anybody go after Trump the way that Elon Musk did. I mean, I think Trump should, you know, reassess, you know, which countries he's pissed off at, because it seems to me, you know, Elon Musk makes a strong case.
- [28:21]
Michael Cohen
Well, let me, let me say in conclusion, just regarding this Jeffrey Epstein thing, and I've been very, very clear about it, I am not taking the knee. I am not trying to hide something. I have hid nothing. But literally since the day I was first subtinate to testify, and I will always speak the truth. I have been, I was by Trump's side for almost a decade and a half. I knew, and I know Trump better than almost anybody. In fact, I always would say I know him better than his own kids because he was more intimate with me in terms of things that you don't tell your kids, but you're willing to tell a friend, a confidant, a consigliere. Yeah, he was in Jeffrey Epstein files because he's in his black book. But there are no allegations that I am aware of, legitimate allegations that would tie Trump to the misdeeds, the disgusting misdeeds that were done by Epstein.
- [29:29]
Jim Acosta
I, you know, we're going to have to wait and see. I, I'll take your word for it, Michael, from. Based on what? You know, but it seems awfully fishy to me that they will not release those files. And I'm not making, I'm not casting any aspersions. I'm not making any allegations. I'm not making any accusations. It is strange, you know, that the far right for years has been clamoring for the release of those files, and for some reason, they don't want to do it.
- [29:55]
Michael Cohen
And he may be protecting somebody else.
- [29:59]
Jim Acosta
Yeah, right. Who knows?
- [30:00]
Michael Cohen
There's many reasons that it could be, but I'm telling you, if it, and when people say to me, oh, well, you know, what are you taking? Look, I have been asked basically every single question that anybody could think of, and I have, and I have testified honestly, truthfully and accurately. And I'm telling you that in the 15 years that I was by this guy's side, that none of this ever came up, except for one time, a Jane Doe. And that case was dropped, not because I forced it to be dropped or because of anything other than Jane Doe didn't exist. We sent a private investigator to the address, and it was a vacant lot in the Bronx.
- [30:45]
Jim Acosta
Yeah, well, I mean, but my. And I appreciate you coming on today, Michael. My question is, is that, I mean, Elon Musk went after Trump hard last week. Trump should be focusing his energies on Elon Musk and not on every Hispanic person. Yeah.
- [31:00]
Michael Cohen
And he will rest assured. That's only round one. Jim, always great to see you, my brother.
- [31:06]
Jim Acosta
Glad to see you.
- [31:07]
Michael Cohen
Michael, do this today.
- [31:08]
Jim Acosta
All right. Sounds good. Good to see you, my man. Thanks a lot. Appreciate it. Okay.
- [31:12]
Michael Cohen
Always.
- [31:13]
Jim Acosta
All right. That is Michael Cohen. I'm going to bring in Judd Legum right now. He writes popular information on Substack. This is Judd's first time on the Jim Acosta show. I'm really happy that he's coming out on the show today. And. And Judd's been, you know, laser focused on. Oh, boy. No, I did not mean to put. Hang on, hang on, everybody. The substack machine sometimes throws me a curveball. I had typed in Judd, and I saw Judd's face pop up. But then it was a different. I guess it might have been my iPhone. Autocorrect tried to bring in somebody else. No, I want to bring in Judd. Thank you. All right, let's bring in Judd Leggum. I believe he is standing by. He writes popular information for Substack. And, you know, Judd's been pointing out some of these same issues that, you know, I was pointing up at the top of the program. Hey, Judd, how you doing? Good to see you.
- [32:10]
Judd Legum
Good. Thanks for having me here.
- [32:12]
Jim Acosta
Hey, and great to talk to you for the first time in person. I know you and I have conversed over, like, social media, DMs and things like that. And sure, always, you know, happy to call attention to your great reporting. I mean, the substack that you write popular information, I mean, it has really taken off. And I was reading it this morning because I think you were making the same point probably more eloquently than others, you know, that a lot of folks have been making, which is that Trump has been. And this is what you wrote. He's been dreaming of mobilizing the military against protesters in the United States for years. And on Saturday night, he made it a reality. And Judd, Jud, just in the last hour or so, the breaking news has been coming in that he's ordering some 700 odd Marines. He's authorizing the deployment of those Marines to California, to Southern California, to respond, I suppose, in the next 24 hours to what's been taking place when obviously that is not necessary at this point. He seems to be sort of laying the kindling for the fire that he would like to see started.
- [33:18]
Judd Legum
Yeah. And that's something he's talked about very explicitly in the past as well, when he's talked about mobilizing the National Guard. He's also on several occasions, talked about calling up the military as well. And, you know, what's particularly concerning is this kind of ups the danger level, really, for both sides, really, for the. You know, you have to. You have to feel for the Marines who are being called up not of their own volition and are now being put in a situation that they're not trained for. You know, these are people who are trained for lethal combat. And, you know, I was just looking at the news, you know, as I was waiting here to come on with you, and the Department of Defense hasn't even defined the terms of engagement for these. The troops that are going to be arriving in Los Angeles. And as far as I know, they're on their way. So it's a very dangerous situation, all in sort of service of this kind of fantasy that Trump has been talking about at least since 2020, of using the National Guard, the military, as sort of his personal police force in order to bring law and order to the country, when, of course, that's exact precisely not what they're intended to do.
- [34:40]
Jim Acosta
Yeah. And you were correct in pointing out the last time the National Guard was mobilized, absent a request from local officials was in 1965 to protect civil rights protesters in Alabama marching from Selma to Montgomery. So in that case, the National Guard was being used to protect civil rights protesters. It seems Trump is trying to use the National Guard, use the Marines to suppress civil. Civil rights protesters, I suppose you'd call them civil rights protesters, and that they are protesting on behalf of the civil rights of these migrants who have been swept up in these ICE raids. And this is despite the fact that the LAPD has described. They were describing the protests on Saturday as peaceful. Now, of course, you do see property damage. You do see occasionally things spiraling a bit here and there. Things get chippy. But it has not spiraled to the point where it seems like you would want to call in the National Guard at this point for specifically the reasons you're talking about.
- [35:38]
Judd Legum
Well, and really, I think at the time that Trump finally made the call to bring in the National Guard. As far as reports were that these protests had dwindled down to a few dozen people at a Home Depot outside of los. Outside of Los Angeles. But, of course, when you call in the National Guard, which is an extraordinary step to do, particularly when it's not by request, when you're doing it, when the local authorities are saying, we have the capacity to handle this with law enforcement, obviously federal law enforcement could be there as well, and you bring that in, that's going to inflame the situation. So I would expect that with the National Guard already being called in with now the Marines, which is another escalation, that this situation escalates. And it seems that it's. He's really relishing the escalation of this and that this is not a issue with the call up, but it's. It, it appears to be the point of all of this is to escalate the situation and create this conflict with, you know, a blue state. You know, you don't. There's. There's plenty of undocumented immigrants working agricultural jobs in Florida, all throughout the South. You know, you don't. We're not seeing that as the target. We're seeing it in California. And I don't think that's a coincidence.
- [37:06]
Michael Cohen
Yeah.
- [37:07]
Jim Acosta
It's almost as though he is trying to create the crisis that he would like to respond to with military force so he can cross this threshold and perhaps even invoke the Insurrectionist act. And to me, the Insurrection Act. And to me, that is where the danger lies. And, you know, I was talking to Michael Cohen about this earlier, and he's been around Trump for a long, long time. And he thinks all of this is sort of a giant distraction. That's his speculation, a giant distraction to get people off of Elon Musk and the big beautiful Bill and all the, the failures he's been racking up. That may be the case, but that doesn't take away the fact that we may be in a situation where Trump escalates things to a point where perhaps the National Guard might be necessary, and then where do we go from here? We don't know.
- [37:52]
Judd Legum
Yeah. And I do think that this is something that he really admires about authoritarians in other countries. You know, I'm based in D.C. you, you can see images of the tanks being brought in to D.C. for this weekend. They're coming for Trump's birthday to do a military parade. So I don't think it's a coincidence that now Trump is now, you know, he wants the military, which in American democracy, part of the whole thing is we don't have the military here. You know, you can go to. You can go to other countries. I remember I was in Greece and you around, you know, where the prime minister was, and you can see the military kind of in their camouflage, you know, patrolling through the woods. You don't see that in the United States, but now you do. And I think it's because he really admires that, that kind of show of force. And so we can only hope that the situation in Los Angeles, and I think there's going to be situations, you know, he's bringing them to Los Angeles. If this is how he wants to respond to protests, I imagine my inclination is that there's going to be protests in cities all around the country in response to this. And then what's going to happen is the military going to be deployed to every major city in the country? I mean, this could really metastasize from here.
- [39:26]
Jim Acosta
No, that's absolutely right. And the situation that I was thinking about over the weekend, because I covered it when I was at the White House during the first Trump administration, was the George Floyd protests that took place around June 1st of 2020, when they used federal forces to clear Lafayette Square. In the area around it. They fired rubber bullets at people. They were using tear gas and chemical dispersants basically to clear the park so Trump could have his photo op in front of St. John's Church. But you remember from that day, Judd, and I was there, I mean, you heard the tear gas canisters going off as he was speaking in the Rose Garden. I saw military vehicles with the National Guard rolling through the grounds of the White House. And then we saw General Mark Milley and his military fatigues. Remember that? It was on that day, and he expressed regret about that later on. And so Trump is. And of course, Mark Esper has made the disclosure that Trump was talking about, you know, can we shoot the protesters and the like. This has been something that Trump has. Has been fantasizing, I think, is the word you use about for some time. And the thing that worries me is that he may be on the verge of. Of seeing that play out. What he wanted to see around George Floyd, he wants to see it this time around, and maybe he'll get a chance to see it play out.
- [40:45]
Judd Legum
Yeah. And I think it's important, you know, for the, for the people listening as they're kind of consuming all the news. This is going to be. This is going to go. Who knows how long this will last. That how we're defining what violence is in protests and what is a peaceful protest and what is not. Because, like, one of the things that the protesters are doing in Los Angeles is they were on the road, you know, which is, obviously, it's dangerous for those protesters. It's inconvenient for the people who are driving. But if you remember the civil rights protests in. In Selma, you know, in the south, these people, they were marching on the streets. You know, they were not. This was not something that was done so that everything could, you know, protests are not done so that everything can sort of just work the exact way they were working before the protests were. It's designed to get attention. That doesn't necessarily mean they're violent, and it doesn't necessarily mean you need, you know, less lethal or the. The Marines with machine guns to respond to them. We have a tradition of respecting, you know, protests. You know, it's one of the things I've Learned Living in D.C. for many, many years, and there's all sorts of folks who come around, some of which, you know, you may find abhorrent, some of which you may agree with. But they're, you know, in. And most of them have a permit. But even the ones who don't, they're treated with respect. They are not threatened, you know, at least. At least. At least in the best of times. And so that's something I think we need to need to keep in mind that, you know, valuing protest and having it as a. Something, as a nation that we understand the importance of whether or not you agree with the protesters is something that can cause inconvenience, and that doesn't necessarily justify the kind of escalation that we're seeing now.
- [42:40]
Jim Acosta
Yeah, I mean, that's why they call it civil disobedience. And, you know, the other thing in all of this is the way Trump flouts the law, flouts the Constitution, tries to test the bounds of where the law constrains the president in these types of situations. You know, Trump is citing. This is, according to Reuters, Trump Citing Title 10 of the US Code, a federal law that outlines the role of the US Armed Forces in his June 7 order to call members of the National Guard into federal service. Going on here, it says a Provision of Title 10 allows the President to deploy National Guard units into federal service if the US Is invaded, there is a rebellion or danger of rebellion, or the president is unable with the regular forces to execute the laws of the United States. We're not. And of course, the posse Comitatus Act 1878 law generally forbids the U.S. military from taking part in law enforcement. That includes the National Guard. And so we're not in a situation where we're in a rebellion or danger of a rebellion or any of those things. And so, again, I guess we're waiting on a court to constrain him. And that's why California is suing, I suppose.
- [43:47]
Judd Legum
Yeah. Although this is something that the courts are not well equipped to do. You know, some in a democracy, in some, in a lot of cases, it relies on the good faith of all of the parties. So courts are going to be, you know, I don't know what's going to happen. And what Trump has done is quite extraordinary. So maybe the courts will do something extraordinary in return in response. That's possible. But courts are not in the habit of getting involved in an order from the president, the commander in chief, to any part of the military. I mean, that is something that they would stay as far away from as they could. And now Trump is putting them in that, that situation. So that's really, it's a, it's a real stress test for the court because also, courts do not want to be in a situation where, what if they issue an order and say, you have to turn the National Guard back over to the state of California, which is what they're asking for in this lawsuit. What if Trump doesn't do that? You know, then what is the next.
- [45:03]
Jim Acosta
Step and what do we do?
- [45:05]
Judd Legum
And so that's the real quandary that we're, that we're facing. And I think the courts will think very, you know, they'll think, they'll think long and hard about that because they don't want to be put in a position where they seem impotent to respond to a situation, even if they believe the law is being violated.
- [45:26]
Jim Acosta
And Trump could use the clock here in that the longer this drags out, the more likely it is that you will see some kind of clash that he could argue, because it's out there in front of the cameras, it's on the Today show, it's on the cable newscast, and so on. He could say, aha. See, this is what I'm talking about here. This is why I need to do this.
- [45:46]
Judd Legum
Exactly.
- [45:46]
Jim Acosta
Yeah.
- [45:47]
Judd Legum
And that's, and I think that's, you know, kind of invoking this more obscure statute, which, if you read the text of Trump's order, really only allows them not to be involved in any law enforcement, really deal with any of the people around it all but just support the federal and state law enforcement folks, folks that are there. But the fact that he sent them, as you were just saying, and now the Marines could inflame the situation so that then he has a stronger case that it is an insurrection. It was interesting yesterday he was asked by the, by the press, is this an insurrection? He said, no, he doesn't think it's gotten to that level yet. And then proceeded to post about, you know, a bunch of times and calling them insurrectionists. So he's a little confused as to what he wants to call this, but I think he would like it. He would like to have full reign to do whatever he would like with the military at this.
- [46:49]
Jim Acosta
It's almost as if Stephen Miller or somebody inside the White House said, well, you know, if you don't call them insurrectionists, then we might not be able to use the Insurrection Act. And, you know, it sort of has that calling card in the way he's sort of done a 180 and now started to talk about these protesters and calling them insurrections, which is just outrageous. But I think he knows he's poking and prodding and trying to set people off when he does that sort of thing. It's the same thing with this truth social post when he says, if they spit, you know, we will hit. And of course on January 6, 2021, at the Capitol, they were doing far worse than the police officers on that day. And he pardoned all of those people.
- [47:25]
Judd Legum
So, yeah. And I think, you know, just taking a step back, how we really got there, you know, I started thinking about this when you talked about Stephen Miller is, you know, there was a pledge by Trump, by the administration that they were going to deport millions of undocumented immigrants. Everyone was going to go out and, you know, I think they started kind of with the low hanging fruit of people they could identify as having a criminal record or already in the system trying to get them out, you know, but they've really run up against a wall very quickly with those kind of folks because the majority of people are undocumented, have been here for years and are just working in places like Los Angeles, but many other places all around the country. And that's really what has ignited this is they are desperate to get their deportation levels up. You know, they haven't really significantly exceeded the levels of deportation under Biden and they haven't come close to the deportation levels under Obama. No one has been more successful at deporting undocumented immigrants than Barack Obama, I remember, in fact. Yeah, so that was. And so they are forced now to go into workplaces, which can be a more efficient way of doing it. Because if you do have a workplace and there are industries that heavily rely on undocumented workers, certain industries, the garment industry in Los Angeles, but also agricultural industries in the south, other other types of work, you might be able to get a large number of people all at one time. But when you're doing that, you are ripping people who have, who have been part of those communities for years. And that is triggering the protest when people who they know who they love, who they've had relationships with, a professional relationship, personal relationships for years and years and years are getting rounded up, especially in a place like Los Angeles in these communities where it's really a huge part of the community fabric. That's what created the protests.
- [49:38]
Jim Acosta
Yeah. And I've been out to California lots of times. A lot of friends out there and some of those friends are Latino and they say there's an expression out in California, we didn't cross the border, the border crossed us. And this gets to one of the issues that Stephen Miller and his cohorts, people like Tom Homan, are running up against. And I've been talking about this on my show repeatedly, and that is that one of the big lies of the 2024 campaign was when Trump and Stephen Miller and those types were out there saying in front of the cameras that they were just going to target the criminals, that they were just going to target the gang members. Well, you can't do mass deportations and do that at the same time because there aren't enough criminals and gang members to mass deport. There are some, obviously, that can be swept up and removed from the country and deserve to be removed from the country, but the only way you can get to the level of millions upon millions of undocumented and mixed status people in this country is to just, without any kind of care in the world about human decency, just sweep people up off the streets, out of restaurants and out of these kinds of jobs that you mentioned. The. They're going to people, they're not going after criminals if they're going after people's workplaces, they're not going after criminals if they're deporting whole families. When the kid in the, in the family is a US citizen, but the parents aren't, that's not the same thing.
- [50:58]
Judd Legum
Yeah. And it's really a, a situation where the rhetoric that we've been hearing for years and years and years is not going to match the reality of what they are capable of doing. So when you run up against a roadblock, what do you do? And I think that's where we're seeing the Trump playbook, is that you escalate, you create, you keep escalating, and when that doesn't work, you find another way to escalate and you sort of move. He's very comfortable, and this is, in one sense, really one of his biggest political skills, is he's very comfortable living in chaos. Other people are uncomfortable, but he thrives in it. So he is going. So he believes that he will come out of this situation better than his political opponents because he will use it and use the chaos as a way to kind of collect more, risked for whatever comes, whatever the next chapter is of this.
- [52:08]
Jim Acosta
No, you're. You're absolutely right, John. As a matter of fact, I once spoke with Ryan Priebus, who was Trump's first chief of staff, and I wrote about this at the time. He told me that Trump likes to be the master of the chaos because. Or he likes to whip up chaos because he can then be the master of the chaos. He can be in the center of that storm, sort of controlling it, manipulating it, using it to his gain, and so on. And it's clear that's what he's doing here. But Judd Legum, I'm so glad we're able to do this finally. Thanks so much for doing it. Appreciate it.
- [52:38]
Judd Legum
Thanks for having me.
- [52:39]
Michael Cohen
All right.
- [52:39]
Jim Acosta
It's a pleasure to see you. It was absolutely a pleasure. Thanks a lot. And we'll hope for the best and hope that things de escalate, if they can, if Trump will allow it out there in Southern California. I have so many friends out there. I just hate to think about what may be coming, what may be in store out there as Trump continues to try to light the match, try to set off a spark that will result in the kind of crisis that he is seeking so he can. So he can respond in a way that he's been dreaming about for many, many years. That's. That's the thing that concerns me. And so, you know, obviously, we need to get the word out. I just want to say, once again, if anybody's watching this or listening to this and they're involved in these protests and these demonstrations, I know that. You know that. I know that the right thing to do is to protest peacefully. Get your voices out there. There's no question about it. If there is something to protest about in this day and age and what is happening right now. This is, is absolutely worth demonstrating against what's been taking place since Donald Trump's been back in the White House. This heartless, cruel, inhumane mass deportation policy which was sold with a lie that they were going after criminals and gang members when, of course, all they really wanted to do was to make the United States less diverse. That has always been Donald Trump's goal. That has always been Stephen Miller's goal. They've gotten a second chance to try to make that happen. And that's what they're trying to do this time around. And that brings me to just one final thing I wanted to say. And I saw a couple people ask whether I was going to talk about it. Let me just preface this by saying I don't typically like as much as people talk about me. And of course, I was all over FOX last week. And thank you, Fox, for doing that. It's not really my cup of tea to want to talk about my friends in the press, talk about my colleagues in the press. Sometimes I feel like that puts more stress and just pressure on people who are going through stuff when they get caught up in, you know, some of the things that can happen when you cover Donald Trump in a tough way. When you cover Donald Trump in a tough way, make no mistake, they will come after you. The White House will come after you. His minions will come after you on Fox and in conservative media, people like Caroline levitt and Kayleigh McEnany and you know, some of these people who are going to regret what they're doing and saying later on in life, they will come after you. There's no question about. They'll call you all kinds of names and so on. So the last thing I want to do is get involved in that kind of a fray because sometimes I feel as though it, because I've been in the middle of this, I understand what it's like. I didn't like it when I was getting criticized for my coverage of Donald Trump. Not so much by the conservative ass whites on the far right. I don't care about those guys. But I did care from time to time when some of my friends in the press would weigh in. And of course, you want your friends to like and respect your work and so on. Anyway, having said all of that preface there, I am concerned about what has taken place over at abc. I respect the hell out of a lot of the people over there at abc. I do think the way that they settled that lawsuit that was aimed at George Stephanopoulos was wrong. I don't think they should have done that. I think it incentivized what Trump has been doing now in terms of going after the pressure. And they're doing it yet again by throwing Terry Moran under the bus. Terry over the weekend, and I don't know Terry that well. He and I have just worked around each other over the years. I respect him as a journalist. He's a very good reporter. Terry over the weekend, put out a tweet, which he later deleted, that basically said that Stephen Miller, you know, one of Trump's top aides, is basically all about hate. And as somebody who has been in Stephen Miller's crosshairs, as somebody who's gone toe to toe with Stephen Miller, I did it back in August of 2017 in the White House briefing room when he and I went round and round over the meaning of the Statue of Liberty, when he tried to whitewash the meaning of the Statue of Liberty with white supremacist talking points. That was when I learned what Stephen Miller was all about. They would swear up and down inside the White House that Stephen was not all about that, but he came after me with language that, as it turned out, was very incendiary. He was saying that I had a cosmopolitan bias. These are things that white supremacist websites were using to go after their targets back in the day. Kind of convenient there that Stephen Miller would use that same kind of language. Anyway, the fact that he went after me in that fashion, the fact that he has been Trump's main propagandist on the issue of immigration and demonizing immigrants ever since Trump started running for the White House, you know, accusing migrants of being part of an invasion in this country and so on. I mean, that kind of language comes from somebody who hates, somebody who has hate in their heart. And I have to say, when I saw Terry Moran's tweet over the weekend. And again, I don't mean to insert myself into this situation, but people want to know what I think. I think Terry hit the nail on the head. I think Terry was stating things exactly right. And maybe he felt because he was working for a big news organization that he had to take that tweet down, or perhaps they told him to take it down. I don't know what the circumstances are, but what he was saying in that tweet was true. I believe Stephen Miller, based on my experience covering him, has hate in his heart. I think it's what drives him. I think it's what drives his aggressive posture inside the White House when he lashes out at officials inside the administration that their mass deportation numbers are not high enough. I don't like to think that about another human being, and there aren't many human beings in the world that I think that about. But I do believe that at the end of the day, in the final analysis, Stephen Miller, you have hate in your heart. Donald Trump, you have hate in your heart. And it is one of the more unfortunate things about who you are. As many unfortunate things as there are, it is perhaps the most unfortunate thing about who you are when you have hate in your heart. You have no business being in charge of this country. You have no business being the commander in chief of this country. You have no business being the President of the United States of this country. If you have hate in your heart. If you have hate in your heart, there are lots of other things you can do with your free time. You can have a TV show on conservative media. There are lots of people with hate in their heart who have TV shows on conservative media. But at the end of the day, at the end of the day, what Terry Moran said was, was true. And that's what people in the press should be doing right now without worrying about the consequences, without fear or favor. They should be telling you, the American people, the truth. What's at the heart of the matter and what we're seeing driving the situation to the brink in Los Angeles tonight is hate, hate in the hearts of some of the people who run this country. And until those individuals do some self examination, which I don't think is ever going to come, I think we know the track record here. It's not going to come. We're going to be on the precipice of bad things from now until this particular occupant of the Oval Office leaves the scene. And I don't say 2028 or January of 2029 when I, when I say when he leaves the scene. If, if indeed that happens at the end of this term, it's, it's not something I want to talk about on a Monday night. It's not something that I want folks from, who are coming home from work thinking about as they're cracking open a beer or getting dinner on the stove. But it is the reality of the situation. And the folks who are watching this now, people who are watching this later need to understand. And the people in the White House need to understand. You cannot crush the truth in America. And if you cannot crush the truth in America, you cannot crush the people. You cannot crush all of the people who want to hear the truth in America. And if you cannot crush all of the people who want to hear the truth in America, you cannot crush all of the people who want to tell the truth in America. My thanks to Michael Cohen. My thanks to Judd Legume. Really appreciate all of you watching. Still reporting from Washington, I'm Jim Acosta. Have a good evening. Good night.