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The Jim Acosta Show
MICHAEL FANONE SITS DOWN WITH JIM TO DISCUSS WHAT REALLY HAPPENED THAT DAY
00:55:09
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- [00:00]
Jim
Oh, it's just bedlam. It's just.
- [00:03]
Mike
It's absolute chaos. Utter hell's breaking loose. They're not receiving any type of commands over the radio. The command structure had completely broken down at that point.
- [00:13]
Jim
Were you guys inside the MPD at that time getting any intelligence, getting any sense that things could get pretty brutal, pretty nasty on January 6th?
- [00:23]
Mike
No, no. I mean, there's a misconception that, that like the rank and file law enforcement is somehow better informed than the general public. I think that's. Couldn't be further from the truth. We're probably less informed because most cops don't pay any attention to, you know, to. Certainly not to politics. I was apolitical the vast majority of my career, but also, you know, even to things like national news or even local news, you know, for me it was at least at the beginning of the day, it was business as usual.
- [00:58]
Jim
Yeah. And that makes me wonder, how did you get called in that day?
- [01:04]
Mike
So I didn't, I didn't actually get called in. I mean, my regular shift, I think, started at 3pm that morning. I was, I got a phone call from my partner at the time, Jimmy Albright. And you know, Jimmy was like, hey, I'm hearing some crazy shit that's happening at the Cat at the Stop the Steal rally in that, you know, we had, we had undercover officers, intel officers that were monitoring the protest as is commonplace.
- [01:37]
Jim
I mean, standard operating procedures.
- [01:38]
Mike
Exactly. And so these officers were reporting things like armed individuals in the crowd, which is not normal. And there were several arrests that were made of individuals. Obviously in Washington D.C. at that time, it was unlawful to bring an unregistered firearm into the District. And so several individuals were arrested there on the outer perimeter of the, of the Stop the Steal rally. And so that, you know, that was strange, but not. I mean, it certainly didn't make me think about going into work early or changing the game plan for the day. It wasn't until shortly before noon, I think I got some more phone calls from colleagues, namely Jimmy, and. And they were reporting that a large group had broken off from the rally and was walking to the Capitol. So at that point I started to get ready and I kind of made the decision that I was going to go in early, but I took my sweet time and by one o' clock I just left the house and I was living in, you know, just outside of D.C. at the time in Alexandria. And I got a call from Jimmy and he said, turn your radio on. Jimmy lived out in Deal, Maryland, and was outside of the radio reception area. And so he knew I would be able to tune in and actually hear what was happening. And I had two radios at the time. I had an FBI radio because I was an FBI Task force officer, and I also had MPD radio. So I was listening to two different channels, and all I heard was distress calls coming from the Capitol. Namely, a guy who you may or may not be familiar, depending on how much you know about January 6th or have watched. But there was a commander from the Special Operations Division. His name is Robert Glover. If you were an MPD officer or any D.C. you know, law enforcement agency, you are familiar with Robert Glover. Robert Glover was the. Like I said, the commander of Special Operations. They are the Bureau or the division within the department that takes over in these First Amendment assemblies. He's the guy on the ground that coordinates law enforcement's response to protests, specifically once they turn violent. And he's. I think I've described him before as like. He's like Rain Man. He has no personality. He's probably the least likable person that you'll ever meet. But he is like a savant when it comes to deploying law enforcement assets to handle these types of protests. He is a consummate professional, and he is always cool, calm, and collected. And so hearing him on the radio with his voice cracking almost. I mean, becoming emotional was. Was really disconcerting to me because I had heard him on the radio so many times before. And this is a guy who is now. I remember it, you know, crystal clear, like, so vividly saying, you know, the outer lower West Terrace perimeter has been breached. Officers are being assaulted. And that was the first of countless distress calls that came out from command staff, from individual officers throughout the day. And I spent the better part of my drive from Alexandria into the First District Station just listening to officers calling out for distress. And so that's when I made the decision that, you know, I was not going to, you know, go about my regular scheduled activity of the day. It was going to be, I'm putting a uniform on, which is not something that I had done for over a decade, and I was going to be responding to the Capitol, and. And that's what I did.
- [05:45]
Jim
So you were a plainclothes officer.
- [05:47]
Mike
Yeah.
- [05:47]
Jim
And then on January 6, put the uniform on, you went in.
- [05:51]
Mike
I literally took my uniform out of the plastic bags had been issued to me, was pulling the price tag off the shirts.
- [06:00]
Jim
Wow.
- [06:01]
Mike
And, like, putting that crap together. People ask me, like, you know, you got into work, like, 1:30, like, what took you so long, you didn't get to the Capitol till just before 3. And I'm like, well, you know, you get the belt. You got to put all that crap on the belt. Yeah, I put it all together.
- [06:15]
Jim
Yeah.
- [06:16]
Mike
From scratch.
- [06:17]
Jim
Right. And so you get down there. It was close to three, I guess. Is that what you're saying? And so at that point, all hell's breaking loose.
- [06:26]
Mike
Oh, all hell had already broken loose. And breaking loose for. I mean, the original breach, the perimeter breach, was at 1pm just before 1pm I think, 12:58. And then by the time I got there, because I was wondering how you
- [06:41]
Jim
got into that crowd. Like, how did you find yourself? You just went in there to start helping and try to pull people back. How did. How did that go down?
- [06:50]
Mike
So. So I ended up. My partner and I, we drive up to the Capitol. If you're familiar with the. The U.S. capitol, you know that there's like a. A perimeter around the Capitol. And so you can't just. I mean, you could drive up, like, in Independence Avenue, Constitution Avenue, through the Capitol complex, but those were completely blocked off by police vehicles. I mean, there was just tons of police vehicles parked there. So Jimmy and I thought we would go on. I think it's D Street, which is that just outside of the barricades, and that we would drive up, like, South Capitol street or drive by, like, Longworth House office building. So we get there, and there was a Capitol Police officer at the barricade. The barricades were up, and we're in a marked police vehicle in full uniform. And the officers wouldn't let us in because they said we didn't have permission to go into. Into the Capitol. So. So we ended up, like, parking there. And listen, listen. I know I. At in the moment, I probably could have gotten out and choked both of those officers to death.
- [07:59]
Jim
Oh, it's just bedlam.
- [08:01]
Mike
It's just absolute chaos. Utter hell's breaking loose. They're not receiving any type of commands over the radio. The command structure had completely broken down at that point inside of U.S. capitol Police. And so, you know, these officers reverted back to, you know, their most basic directives, which is, if you're not authorized, you don't get into the Capitol. And so while it was, like, semi aggravating and comical all at once, like, Jimmy and I just said, fuck it. We parked our car and decided we're gonna walk two blocks to the Capitol, which is what we did. And it was surreal. I mean, it was. It was dead quiet. There was no pedestrians out on the. The complex until we got to Independence Avenue. And once we got to Independence Avenue, you see this, know, sea of police cars. A lot of them are unoccupied, still have their sirens going off, and it's just super chaotic. There was maybe a few hundred protesters kind of milling about. And other than that, I mean, if. If you've ever walked up from the south side of the Capitol, you know that, like, the west terrace is pretty much obscured from your vision. So I couldn't see the fact that there was, like, 10 to 15,000 people gathered on the west front of the Capitol. All I could see was these couple hundred idiots that were, you know, marching around and carrying Trump paraphernalia and crap and chanting. And so Jimmy and I made our way in there. We didn't see, like, any real sense of urgency at that point. We got inside the Capitol, made our way to the crypt area, which is, you know, the center of the Capitol complex, just beneath Statuary Hall. And we were just kind of, like, there. And I'm listening to my radio, trying to figure out, like, there's gotta be someplace that they're calling for officers or somewhere we can go and actually be useful. And at one point, a distress call comes out for the lower West Terrace Tunnel. And it was a 1033, which is our 10 code for officer, officers in need of assistance. And so I remember looking at Jimmy, and I was like, where's. Which way is west? And he, you know, figures it out, and we end up making our way down the set of stairs. And next thing you know, we're in the lower West Terrace Tunnel. If you're not familiar, it's like a long corridor. You come up on two sets of double doors. They're just big wooden doors with glass panes. And I remember looking like. That's the first thing that drew my attention, was looking through these glass panes, and I could see the backs of officers through the doors. But you could. I think what first caught me was I could see what I immediately recognized was CS gas, which is a chemical irritant that law enforcement deploys. And it was just lingering in the air inside of this tunnel. What I later learned was that, you know, while officers were deploying this chemical agent to try to disperse the crowd, that many of the rioters had brought the simplest apparatus, oven mitts, because they knew that these containers come out white hot. And so to pick them up and throw them back at law enforcement, they knew they needed to bring something that. That they could do that. And so, you know, we we had guys that were picking them up and throwing them back into the tunnel. And so, you know, obviously it's bad enough breathing in CS gas in an open air environment. It's really bad when it's in a closed environment, like a tunnel like we were in. And it's even worse when you're so vain that you don't bring your gas mask because you think it looks stupid. Yeah, which is what I did.
- [12:18]
Jim
That's what you did. Okay, well, now you know. Now you know. And Mike, I mean, we know that you ended up getting in a situation where you were assaulted and you were afraid for your life at that point. What happened then? What was that, what was that part like?
- [12:41]
Mike
Yeah, so Jimmy and I get into the tunnel. I mean, I felt like I had an obligation having just gotten there. And I had actually had a brief conversation moments before with a friend of mine, Bill Bogner, who I knew from the first District. He used to be an admin officer there. Excuse me. He was working at the academy at the time. An administrative guy who self deployed to the Capitol. Like so many hundreds of officers just took it upon himself to go. And he was telling me how, you know, these guys that were out there had been fighting, you know, with, with no relief. And so I was like, I just got here. I feel like I have a responsibility to go up front and, and be in the front of this group of officers. And so Jimmy and I made our way to the front and it was, it was like the President said, it was wild. I don't know if you guys have seen. There's some really good videos of kind of what transpired, if you can imagine. I think I. In my first interview, I described it as like a medieval battle scene. And that's really accurate in that you couldn't slide a credit card between two people in that tunnel. And so, I mean, this idea that we were fighting, it's kind of a misconception. I mean, you couldn't even throw a punch. It was literally just officers using their body weight to try to push, you know, the, the opposition, the rioters out of the tunnel and vice versa, At taking place over the course of hours. And so, and, and then throw in, you know, metal objects and tear gas and bear spray and CS gas and all these other factors. And so, you know, we were just pushing and, and there was a point in time where, you know, we were losing considerable amount of ground. And then I, I don't. There's never a point in time where I was afraid. And I attribute that A lot of that to one of the first people that I saw after I saw Bill. Bob, there's a really good friend of mine, Great Cottage. He was the commander of our. He ran all of the investigative units in the city. He was the head of our Detectives bureau, Investigative Services Bureau. And he's a guy that I had known even before I came to D.C. police. We had known each other at Capitol Police, and even before that. And I don't know, there was just something, like, very reassuring for me and calming to see somebody that I knew that was there. And so instantly, it just. You switch from, like, this is a situation I can't handle to just doing the job. And the job was, you know, fighting alongside these other officers. And so, you know, fast forward 15 minutes, and I find myself at the front of this scrum. And, you know, at one point, I'm face to face with this guy's name was Albuquerque. Casper Head. He's from Tennessee. And I remember being so close to him, and we had this kind of like, really surreal moment in which he's like, man, I'm getting squished. And I was like, yeah, I'm getting squished, too. And he's like, man, I feel bad for you guys. And I was like, yeah, this sucks. And. And I like. Like, this a real conversation that transpired between me and this guy. And then I could smell, like, I knew I used to dip, so I knew he fucking. He had mint skull. And I could smell it. And I was like, man, that would be really good right now. And. And it's weird, like, how. I mean, that was probably played out over the course of, like, three seconds. And, like, that was a legitimate, you know, conversation I had and thoughts that I was having at that time. And then, you know, just a few moments later, the momentum shifted, and we started pushing them out of the tunnel. And next thing you know, he wrapped his arms around my neck and started pulling me. And at first he said, you know, I'm gonna try to help you out here. And then the next thing I remember him screaming out was, I got one. I got one. At that point, I was pulled away from the police line out into the crowd. And then it was just, you know, pure chaos. I was getting, you know, struck from every direction. People were restraining me. Guys were grabbing my arms. I remember vividly a guy named Kyle Young who started lunging at me, and he was trying to grab my gun that was holstered and remove it from the holster. And I remember at that point, like, all of my attention just Turned to retaining my firearm, making sure that nobody was able to grab it. But at the same time, like, I'm using both hands to do that, and I'm wide open to getting punched in the face and hit in the head. And so it was, you know, then it's just pure survival. What can I do to survive the situation? You know, a lot of things were, you know, crossing my mind. I was thinking about, you know, using my firearm, and then I was like, well, you know, if I probably going to get stripped away from me before I even pull it out of the holster, you know, if I do that, you know, these people are like, they're out for blood. That'll be the justification that they need to, to use, you know, to kill me if they need that. And, and then I remember getting tased in the neck. Daniel Rodriguez from California used the taser device that he, interestingly enough, got earlier that day from Kyle Young, even though the two of them didn't know each other. And he drove it into my neck numerous times. And I think it, at that point, I remember yelling out that, that I have kids, which was very intentional. I, I said it because I was hoping to appease, appeal to somebody in the crowd and, and hope that they would step in or something, protect me. Yeah, and some people did. I mean, they, you know, it was a very. I've used this term a lot tonight. Surreal experience to have people trying to beat the shit out of me or kill me and then others trying to fight them back and provide, you know, protection. And ultimately, you know, those individuals won out and, and I was assisted back to the police line where I completely collapsed and, and was unconscious.
- [20:47]
Jim
Well, I, Mike, I hope you'll forgive me, and I owe you lots of beers later for asking you to retell that story. But I think it's important because of what we're up against right now. We're up against a tidal wave of disinformation coming from Donald Trump, coming from the White House, coming from his allies and the conservative media, and they are trying to rewrite what took place on January 6. They are trying to transform what took place on that day, as you were indicating earlier, into some kind of story of where the people who were attacking the Capitol were somehow the victims in all of this, which is an absolute joke and just a horrible, awful thing. Couple of questions come to mind. One is, and I know you and I have talked about this before, but did you think he could get back into the White House? Did you think he could come back and win in 20, 24. Or did you think, man, there's just no way after what took place on January 6, there's just no way he's going to get back in there? Or did you think maybe there was a chance.
- [22:05]
Mike
I think once. Once McCarthy went down to Mar a Lago, and the whole. You saw the whole narrative shift within the Republican Party. Yeah, I mean, the vast majority of my friends at that time were Trump supporters. And when I saw the party shift in that manner, I saw my friends reactions, even guys that were in law enforcement, even guys that were, you know, six inches away from me inside the Lower Terrace Tunnel, I saw it open up. The, you know, the ability for them to somehow justify continuing to support this guy who incited an insurrection and sent thousands of Americans to the Capitol to attack law enforcement officers. And so I. I knew that. That it was going to be. I. I was deeply concerned pretty early on.
- [23:09]
Jim
Yeah.
- [23:11]
Mike
And then obviously, you know, everything that transpired. And then, you know, I wrote a book, toured the country, talked to people all across the country. I worked with an organization called Courage for America, toured the country with them, speaking at, you know, community events and small, you know, small gatherings all across the country. And those conversations were great, very positive. But those were people that already, you know, were supportive and understood, you know, what I had experienced. The things that concerned me were, like, when I would stop off at the gas station, you know, off some, like, obscure highway or byway, and have a conversation with the people there who had absolutely no idea about January 6th. If they did, they regurgitated some conspiratorial nonsense about it. And then, for the most part, we're happy that Trump had given them a $2,400 Covid check, and we're really hoping that they would get another $2,400 check from Trump. And then I was like, we're fucked.
- [24:24]
Jim
Yeah. And we were. And he gets into office, and the very first thing that he does is he pardons all of those thugs, criminals, goons, white supremacists. We'll talk about that in a little bit. And I remember you and I talking about this and your reaction when you heard that. Because I remember at the time, I mean, there was a lot of. I mean, I was still at my old place, and we were reporting, and there was a lot of the reporting that was going on at that time was, oh, there's just no way he'll pardon all of them. And I think even J.D. vance got in some trouble. He was the incoming vice president. He was saying, well, you Know, the really bad ones, they're probably not going to get pardons. There's, you know, so everybody thought there wasn't a way he would just pardon all of them. And then he, at Turkey pardoned all of them.
- [25:19]
Mike
Yeah, I, I can't get, I can't get inside of Donald Trump's head. So I have no idea what the thought process is, but I, I'm kind of convinced that, not to take away from like how disgusting that act was, but I kind of just think he did it out of your laziness.
- [25:42]
Jim
Right.
- [25:43]
Mike
Like, I don't want to review 1500 plus cases, so let's just pardon them all. And I say that because there was a reporter, I think it was an NBC reporter that asked Trump, I think immediately after he made, he pardoned them, he said, you know, there was this guy, Daniel Rodriguez, and on January 6, 2021, he drove a stun gun into a D.C. police officer's neck numerous times. The officer suffered a heart attack and a traumatic brain injury, has since left the department. What, you know, do you think he deserves to be pardoned? And yet obviously he had already pardoned him. Yeah, but he said, well, we're going to review that, you know, we're not just going to do things, what, whatever. And he's like, but you've already pardoned him. And then he, of course, moved on from, from that question. And so I, I don't, you know, like a lot of things I, I don't like, I don't think Trump actually wants to govern. And I know now we're getting down in another and I'll, yeah. Rein it back in, but I think he's just wants, I agree, he just wants to play golf and be rich and get more money off of the, you know, all of our backs. And so, you know, when it comes to these things like you know, pardoning people and, you know, governing the country, like he doesn't want to be bothered with that shit. That being said, obviously for me, unless
- [27:06]
Jim
it's about becoming a dictator or an autocrat, there are some things he will do that.
- [27:10]
Mike
Yes.
- [27:10]
Jim
Or government related.
- [27:12]
Mike
He thinks we'll get him the Nobel Peace Prize or.
- [27:14]
Jim
Yeah, he thinks, he thinks, yeah, but how's that going? But anyway, we'll talk about that.
- [27:18]
Mike
But you know, the election night, this Washington Post reporter had called me up a couple days earlier and she asked if she could come sit with me and watch the election results come in on election night. And I remember sitting there with her and she was like, well, you know, I'M probably not going to stay all night because this will probably go until 2 or 3 o' clock in the morning. And, like, by 9:30, we already knew who won. And she was like, this is super depressing. And I was like, yeah, yeah, it is. And we. That was a little. And, and so at that point, like, yes, I took it incredibly personally. I saw it as a, you know, a reflection on my inability to convince the American people that Donald Trump was dangerous. I saw it as a rejection of, you know, my experience and the experience of hundreds of other police officers by the American people. Like, nah, you and what you went through and how it destroyed your life. We want the tax cuts or, you know, we, we like the cut of his jib.
- [28:29]
Jim
Yeah.
- [28:30]
Mike
And so let's have some measles, right?
- [28:32]
Psychologist
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [28:32]
Mike
But so I was like, I love measles. And I said it, I said it in the interview. Like, all of you, I'm out. You're never gonna hear from me again. I'm gonna try to piece my life back together. And, you know, I did my thing for Uncle Sam and he's a piece of. And, yeah, I'm just gonna live here.
- [28:56]
Jim
But I remember you and I have a conversation about this, and you were livid. I remember talking to Harry Dunn. He was livid. You guys were. I mean, you guys were totally pissed off, and you had every right to be. I think you and I had a conversation at the time that it was maybe it might be a little healthy to kind of jump in the pro democracy game a little bit and, and try to see what you can do to help. And I know others have encouraged you to do that, too. What's. What has that experience been like? Because now you have a very popular substack, you have a very popular and growing YouTube channel. You're on Instagram. People pay attention to what you have to say now. And I know you don't. You're not doing that for that purpose, but something changed in you where you. You said you to.
- [29:46]
Mike
Yeah. January 20, 2025, Donald Trump pardoned all the people that assaulted me.
- [29:52]
Jim
Yeah.
- [29:52]
Mike
So then it was like, okay, Donald Trump and his administration, they declared war on the Fanon family. Like, by Donald Trump doing that, he made life for me and my family less safe. And it, for those of you who followed my story, you know that, you know, my mother lived in the same house in Alexandria, Virginia, for 33 years, was subjected to endless death threats, harassment from Trump supporters, so much so that she sold her house and moved to an undisclosed location as a result of that, and that's very real.
- [30:27]
Jim
And she still faces some harassment here and there to this day.
- [30:31]
Mike
I mean, she's in a good place now and you know, we've taken all the necessary steps to protect, you know, her. But every single member of my immediate family, my mother, my father, my brother, my sister, her family, you know, my ex wife, my kids, all of them have experienced threats from Trump world and Trump supporters. I mean, we had, I had somebody in a, like a Reddit style chat on, you know, some dark website that's affiliated with MAGA, call for the rape of my three youngest daughters, who are 10, 12 and 14, named them by name, and doxxed my ex wife's home address. So to me, this is, I mean, listen, like fighting for democracy is all good and well and I'm all for that and I'm, you know, here for it, but this is all about defending my family. Donald Trump and MAGA are a clear and present danger to my family, to my children. And so, you know, that is really what motivates me to get up every single day and re engage in something that I'm really not comfortable doing. It's not how I saw my life playing out. I'm not going to sit here and tell you I'd rather be a cop. But, you know, I'm somebody that like avoided like, I'm averse to social media and the Interweb and, and all this nonsense. I mean, I, I like watch these like YouTube videos, even the ones that I do myself, and I'm like, this is so ridiculous. Why does anybody watch this?
- [32:26]
Jim
You're getting better, by the way.
- [32:29]
Mike
And then like, like my brother who, who has become like intimately involved in all of this and is really like the, the brain behind the whole, you know, Michael Fanone show. And, and like we have 300,000 subscribers, which is incredible to me. It's like, why?
- [32:51]
Jim
Because you're real and people want it, they want it to be kept real. They want to hear this authenticity and not bullshit. And what we've been hearing from Trump lately is a lot of bullshit. Surprise, surprise. Just last weekend he puts out a truth social post that says the Biden FBI had plants on the ground on January 6th. And you know, I mean, I wrote a substack that said, wait a minute, you know, first of all, you're not playing with a full deck if you think Joe Biden was the president on January 6, you were the president on January 6. Talk about being a couple of sandwiches short of a picnic. And and the other part of this too, this whole notion that there, that this was an inside job. Well, first tackle that because it's such horseshit.
- [33:41]
Mike
Yes. I mean pardon our language.
- [33:43]
Jim
I know we're on a. In an academic to make sure there
- [33:47]
Mike
were no small children before I started talking.
- [33:50]
Jim
Mostly adults. Mostly.
- [33:51]
Mike
Right. Yeah. Yeah. So. And please, like when we get to the Q A part. Fire away with all your January 6th questions. I, I've always. Yet the FBI. The FBI deployed 240 some agents to the Capitol complex in the aftermath of a full scale riot in which hundreds of police officers were injured. There were no FBI agents that were part implanted into the crowd to instigate anything. That, that is just an absolute insane, you know, theory that was actually debunked by an insane conspiracy theorist who's now the head of the FBI, Cash Patel. So that should tell you.
- [34:46]
Jim
Yeah.
- [34:46]
Mike
You know, and, and it.
- [34:51]
Jim
Talk about surreal. Yeah, yeah.
- [34:53]
Mike
That you know, we'd be looking to Cash Patel for, you know, for, for honest and accurate information or anything that's.
- [35:02]
Jim
He also said nothing in the Epstein files about Trump. But anyway, you know that. That's a different subject, different panel discussion. But I mean they're trying awfully hard rewrite the history.
- [35:14]
Mike
I think it's. For me it's wild. I mean having been there to watch them, you know, there's no organized effort to rewriting the history of January 6th. It seems like there's still like you still have some members of the administration that are espousing this idea that it was antifa, this organization that's not an organization and actually doesn't exist. And I'm telling you that from a law enforcement perspective, not just from somebody who's, you know, talking out of their ass. And so that's my job. Right. So there, so it was antifa then. It was, you know, it was. And some. Then it was a false flag operation. Then it was police officers opening the doors and letting, you know, insurrectionists in. And, and then it was, you know, then it was Nancy Pelosi and a failure to call up the National Guard which by the way was deployed to Washington D.C. just not in a, you know, riot control capacity. If you understand how the National Guard deploys. Typically National Guard troops are deployed for, you know, natural emergencies, you know, disasters.
- [36:27]
Jim
Floods. Yeah.
- [36:28]
Mike
Or things like, like typically how we'll, we'll deploy them is like we have a protest or we have a large event in Washington D.C. we'll use them to block streets or direct traffic, you know, non law enforcement. But but still public safety related activities so that we free up local law enforcement to actually do things that we require law enforcement officers to do. And so we had National Guard troops deployed, but they had to return to the, you know, armory to be refitted, re kitted, to go out and, and to perform in a crowd control capacity. And that's something that required the authorization of the President of the United States. And it was radio silence. And I've had conversations with all the upper echelon members of my department and even within, you know, the administration. I remember having this conversation with Chief Conti, you know, in several days after January 6th. And he was like, I was sitting there on a phone call and you know, the, whoever it was from, from the Pentagon was just simply saying, we think it's a bad look, it would be a bad look for us to deploy the National Guard in, in, you know, in the midst of this situation. And so that's just a complete, and I'm glad, I don't know if you guys caught that viral moment the other day between Nancy Pelosi and some, you know, buffoon that calls herself a reporter that's actually a right wing influencer. And you know, she gave her what for. And I, you know, I'm glad, you
- [38:07]
Jim
know, she tried to say, why didn't you call out the National Guard that day? And Nancy Pelosi goes, don't come at me with those Republican talking points.
- [38:15]
Mike
Right.
- [38:15]
Jim
Call yourself a reporter or something like that. And it was like vintage Nancy Pelosi. And it made me think, you know, maybe she should be back in charge of marshaling the Democrats a little bit. She does not play. She does not play. Yeah, but I mean, but I will say this before moving on to another subject. None of that would have happened. And I like to say this, and I'm repeated in front of this audience, none of that would have happened had Donald Trump just been a man and accepted that he lost the 2020 election. That's, that's the end of that. I mean, that's it. That's it. None of this would have happened. There would be no January 6th, the January 6th, conspiracy theories and so on. Let's talk about ice because it's on the minds of, I think a lot of the students here at uva, people all across the country. We're seeing it take place in Chicago right now. You and I talked about this the other day. You have a law enforcement background, your assessment of how, what ICE has been doing and how they've been unleashed.
- [39:15]
Mike
So I think ICE under this administration is acting in a extra judicious manner, which I guess is, you know, euphemism for they're a completely lawless agency that has absolutely no accountability to the American people. They are, they become Donald Trump's National Police Department
- [39:43]
Jim
secret police. In some ways. Yeah.
- [39:46]
Mike
I mean, secret in the fact that there's no transparency from this agency. We don't know the identities of the individuals that are involved, but we also don't know we can't trust the information that the agency provides us. And I'll give you a great example. I don't know if I'm sure a lot of you saw there was a raid in Chicago that took place in an apartment building that the administration told us was infested. Their words, infested with Trende Aragua gang members. Trende Aragua is a Venezuelan street gang that does, you know, have a significant presence in the United States. That being said, this operation that took place is something that I have never seen in my 20 years in law enforcement in that they used four Black Hawk helicopters, they used ICE agents in full tactical gear in the middle of the night, like 2, 3 o' clock in the morning, rappelling onto the rooftop of this building. They went into every single apartment, raided each apartment, no individual warrants for those premises, and they handcuffed or zip tied all of the occupants, brought them outside, some of them naked, some of them in their underwear, elderly children, elderly, young children, zip tied young children together, brought them out. And so far what we do know is that out of those hundred plus people that were subjected to that traumatic experience, only one has been shown to be loosely affiliated, not even a validated, which is a standard the Department of Justice applies when you're bringing criminal charges against an individual who is purported to be a member of a gang. So there's not a validator, just somebody who essentially an associate of this organization. And that, you know, and they, they were able to do that, which is, you know, insane to me. That you would be able to go into a person's home without a search warrant to me is, is, is outrageous. And as you know, listen, like when I was a police officer, I was not a steward of the Constitution. It's a misconception that law enforcement are the stewards of the Constitution. It was annoying. But that's not to say that you adhere to it, you adhere to the Constitution. You know, I wasn't thinking about like, oh, we got to make sure, but you don't want to get in trouble and you have to do Things according to law, if you want to prosecute the case, if you don't do it by the book and, and by, in, in accordance with the law, the Department of Justice is not going to prosecute your case. They're going to prosecute you. But in this scenario, we have a Department of justice that is, you know, in full alignment with the administration. I mean, I've said many times, Pam Bondi is nothing more than a corrupt political operative for Donald Trump. You know, she has no integrity, not a lick of honesty and no honor.
- [43:09]
Jim
John Bolton INDICTED TODAY trump's THIRD POLITICAL ENEMY INDICTED Yeah, I mean, this is America. I mean that.
- [43:17]
Mike
And I think that, you know, again, I, and I've said it a lot of times. Like, in it, my experience is it's not so much that we have this, like, overwhelming population in this country that is, you know, in alignment, ideologically aligned with this administration. It's that we have too many Americans that are indifferent to what's happening, too many Americans that see what's happening to, you know, vulnerable communities in America, like the immigrant community, and they're like, well, it's not me. So, you know, I think that we're gradually starting to see a shift in that. You know, people see the inhumanity of this, and it's so shocking. I mean, shit, I'm a cop. I've seen everything that a major metropolitan city can throw at you as a law enforcement officer. And this shocks my conscience, seeing people, not just the violence of it, but the unnecessary violence of the arrests and the antagonistic behavior perpetrated by ICE agents. You know, I was called a lot of names when I was a cop, but you knew that you don't get to react. Yeah, sure you want to, but you don't get to react. And some of the things that I've seen ICE agents do, you know, in response to being called names. And you have to understand, too, like, you're, you're enforcing an incredibly unpopular policy, and people are outraged and they're angry, and they have a right to be outraged and a right to be angry, and they have a right to protest the things that you're doing. To see agents of the government make political statements in retaliation to people protesting them is just, I mean, it, you know, it's completely eroding any trust between the law enforcement community, a community I dedicated 20 years of my life to, and the communities that we're charged with protecting and keeping safe. And that's gonna have a long lasting effect in this country. It's gonna be a long Time, I think, before the vast majority of Americans can put faith again in our Department of Justice, in our federal agencies and our local and state agencies who've capitulated to the federal government over some of these, you know, inhumane policies. And I think it's also going to take a tremendous amount of accountability. You know, I've had a lot of conversations with people about, you know, what happens when we write the ship. What do you do with the thousands of ICE agents that joined ICE during this administration, knowing full well that, you know, they were going to be engaging in this type of conduct and behavior? You know, what do you do with those people? I mean, my answer is you fire them and you permanently ban them from ever serving as law enforcement in this country. And the ones that engaged in criminal activity, you prosecute them. Anything short of that, I think, you know, it's going to be difficult for Americans to, you know, put. Put trust in. In these institutions again.
- [47:04]
Psychologist
You know, I'm just wondering, you know, you of all people can help us understand. I mean, I'm a. I'm a psychologist, and I'm still struggling with how to deal with the fear and the danger that we're facing now and how to help my clients, other people, deal with it. And maybe by your example, you can tell us.
- [47:23]
Mike
I mean, it's easy for me. I've got four daughters. The only thing that I think about in, you know, pursuing this work is, you know, leaving this country better than the way that I received it for them. So I'm not really worried about, you know, my safety or, you know, and then, you know, my recommendation is the same to everybody in this room is, you know, show up to these protests, encourage your friends and family members to. To go to the protests as well and peacefully protest this administration. And the other thing is, you know, have these conversations. And I'm not. I don't encourage anybody or advocate for anyone to, you know, to try to convince people that that may be supportive of this administration. What I want people to do is convince those that. That don't support this administration, but they're just apathetic who are not, you know, getting out and voting, who are not attending these protests, who are not letting their voice be heard. You know, talk to those people, you know, have a conversation about what ICE is doing. You know, let them know, like, is this the kind of country that you want to live in? Is this the kind of country that you want your children to live in? And then, so that would be my
- [48:35]
Jim
recommendation, and I would just say that Ma', am, I believe that we are right now in the middle of the cause of our lives. I think that Donald Trump, as Mike said earlier, poses a threat to our democracy. I think he poses a threat to our future. I think he poses a threat to our country. And it is incumbent upon all of us, man, woman, child, grandma, grandpa, whoever you may be, to think about the loved ones in your life and ask yourself what Mike was just saying a few moments ago. Is this the kind of country you want to hand off to your children and grandchildren? And if it is not, you must. You must contact the people in your life and convince them, if they're on the sidelines, to get off the sidelines. You know, one of the things that gets. Gets tossed around a lot is something called Trump Derangement Syndrome. I've been accused of having a severe case of tds. He tweeted on the day that I left cnn and I accused him of having Acosta derangement syndrome. But anyway, he came after me that day. But anyway, I'm less concerned about Trump Derangement Syndrome than I am about Trump Depression syndrome, that we get so down in the dumps, that we get so defeated, that we get so depressed that we just give up. And if he can be beaten at the ballot box as he was in 2020, his cause can get beaten at the ballot box in 2026 and at 2028. And you have to hold on to hope. A lot of people think that, well, Jim, you know, we just know who you are because of Donald Trump. Maybe so, but I also covered Barack Obama, and I tell people all the time, I was out there on the campaign trail, 2008, and I remember going to those gymnasiums and those stadiums and seeing those huge crowds of people. And I would say, you know, I would, you know, my colleagues and I would start to say, something going on here. This is a big deal. And some of the smart people in Washington, the, you know, the know it alls, they were, oh, no, this is Hillary Clinton's election. She's going to win this one. She's got this in the bag. Don't worry. This Barack Obama got. He's got a future, but not like Hillary Clinton. She's going to win. And I just remember thinking to myself, look at the message that he's talking about out there. He's talking about hope. He's talking about change. And what I tell people all the time, not only here, when I speak to groups here in the US but all around the world, don't count out the United States of America. Do not count out your fellow Americans. We have the capacity to surprise. We. You just can't tell what's around the corner. The next big thing could be right around the corner. So you can't give up. You can't give in to. And I talked about this when I left that day. I, I said sayonara to 18 years Mike. As Mike likes to say, the best way to get separated from your job in legacy media is to tell the truth. But on that day that I left, I said don't give in to the lies. Don't give in to fear. Hold on to truth and to hope. And I know that might sound a little corny to the younger folks in here, but it's true. You can't do it. You can't give in. You have to hang on. And I'm telling you, when people ask me, how are we going to get through this, I tell them this. We're just going to outlast them. We're just going to outlast them. We're just going to get through it and we're going to do it together. And that means you got to help pick up your neighbor over here and take him down to no Kings on Saturday. Don't stay at home. If you do stay at home, make sure you, you watch it on our YouTube channels. That we would appreciate that. As a matter of fact, if you're going to go to the march, put it on the YouTube channel so we get the, the number.
- [52:39]
Mike
Yeah, yeah.
- [52:40]
Jim
And hit a Like or something and subscribe and then go down to the, to the march. Do that if you could do so peacefully, not be provoked. Because one of the things that they're trying to do right now is they're trying to provoke these crowds. I have a strong suspicion that on Saturday they're going to try to provoke the crowds. Donald Trump likes to talk about plants on January 6th. I wonder how many plants will be out there on no Kings Day. I wonder about that. Not saying that it's going to happen. Don't want to get in conspiracy theories sound like Tucker Carlson or something. But I wonder about that. Don't get provoked. Remember the, the example set by people like Martin Luther King and Gandhi. Peaceful, non violent protesting. That is the way. You have to have faith that we're going to get through this and in this country and in this place that Thomas Jefferson helped build, it can last. But it's going to take all of us. And thank you everybody for coming tonight. Really appreciate it. Thanks for all your questions. Thanks to Mike. So if you really like this program, make sure you hit the subscribe button. But also, if you want to watch a full clip of the show, you can just click up on this thing right up here. Look at that right over there. Just click on that. You can watch the full show. Or if you want to watch a shorter clip, click this thing over here. And don't forget, of course, to hit that subscribe button. That subscribe button is right there. It's just. It's so easy. Even I can do it. Somebody who passes a cognitive test like myself can do it right there. Hit that subscribe button. Do it now.