← The Jim Acosta Show
The Jim Acosta Show
Michigan Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson and Democracy activist Garry Kasparov
00:50:22
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- [00:00]
Jim Acosta
All right, welcome, everybody, to the Jim Acosta Show. It is Friday tgif, and we really can thank God today on the program, or at least the social media presidents, that is od, who is coming up a little later on the program. He hosts the God Pod. I'll explain how we'll communicate with the Almighty in just a bit. But as you can see, my first guest, our headliner is the Michigan Secretary of State, Jocelyn Benson. Madam Secretary. Jocelyn, however you want me to call you. It's great to see you again. We used to talk on my old show. It's great to have you back here.
- [00:32]
Jocelyn Benson
Thanks, Tim, for having me. Please call me Jocelyn. And thrilled to join you in this new format. What a great way of getting information to the people who need to have a trusted source in this moment, a trusted voice that they. They can rely on.
- [00:46]
Jim Acosta
Yeah. And I mean, I was going to say that you've been dealing with the fallout of Trump's lies for years now. I mean, as the Secretary of State, you had been the target of death threats, harassment stemming from your very professional handling of the 2020 election results that showed that Donald Trump lost to Joe Biden. You're now running for governor, and you also have a new book called the Purposeful Warrior. Congrats on that book. Welcome to the program. I do want to talk about the book, I guess. First of all, I sort of feel like maybe we should talk about the Pope, because you and I were chatting before we got going here. We were in the virtual chat room, as I call it, the virtual green room. And Jocelyn, you were saying how. I mean, it's just, it is amazing that we have this American Pope. I'll talk about this with at God a little later. But I mean, your thoughts, since we were just chatting about this.
- [01:36]
Garry Kasparov
It is.
- [01:37]
Jim Acosta
It is kind of incredible.
- [01:39]
Jocelyn Benson
Yeah. I was in Chicago yesterday when it was announced, and so it was really interesting to see how it reverberated throughout the community and to even be that close to it. But I was also in Italy when the previous pope, Pope Francis, Papa Francesca, as he was called in Italy. My husband was stationed over there. So I thought a lot about all of that yesterday. And that's really what's been on my mind as we reflect on this first American Pope, a true global leader. Right. Millions of people representing America on the global stage alongside the current president. And how a Pope that by all commentary, seems to be very progressive and really will continue a lot of the progressive vision for the church that his predecessor did. So I'm really pleased with this election, I think it's gonna be a really exciting time for the church. And I'm grateful to have another American with a different definition of what it means to care for others and be American on the global stage right now so that we can represent, I feel, a little bit more represented.
- [02:44]
Jim Acosta
Yeah, absolutely. No question about it.
- [02:46]
Jocelyn Benson
On the global stage by the new pope.
- [02:49]
Jim Acosta
Right. I mean, it's not just Donald Trump representing Americans on the world stage anymore. I hate to break it to the folks over at the White House, and we'll talk about all of this with Odd, who is very popular presence here on Substack a little later on the program. But first, we have to deal with the devil. Just kidding. Just kidding. Speaking of which, the White House is continuing to press forward with this quest to deny due process to migrants in this country. Just, I mean, which as it stands now, is a violation of the U.S. constitution under the Fifth Amendment. We should tell our viewers. Jocelyn, this just in. Stephen Miller at the White House today, this is just a short while ago, said that the White House is looking into susp. Habeas corpus, which of course protects people from unlawful detentions. And he said, quote, a lot of it depends on whether the courts do the right thing or not. I mean, the right thing is to protect due process. The right thing is to protect the Fifth Amendment. If you're a migrant in this country, the Constitution says you are a person in the United States and you have a right to due process. And I'm just curious, you know, Jocelyn, you and I were talking about this a little bit before we got started as well. One of the characteristics of this White House is that they just are out upfront about all of this. If they want to go against the Constitution, if they want to be on a collision course with the courts, they're upfront about this. And this is one of the very key issues that is at play right now.
- [04:11]
Jocelyn Benson
Yeah, it's terrifying. And as a lawyer, as a former dean of a law school, as a person for whom the foundation of my career is the law and respecting the rule of law, and as a Michigander who knows that Michigan voters who supported this president didn't support him thinking he would rip up the Constitution. They supported him thinking he would improve our economy, that he would drive down the cost of living and make wages more accessible to all. And instead, the opposite is happening. We're seeing reckless economic policies, tariffs that are only making costs higher, really harming our farmers, which is 25% of our economy. So all of that is happening While at the same time, this cruelty and this complete disregard for our Constitution, the bedrock of who we are, it's not surprising because we saw the same disregard after the 2020 election. We've seen it. You've seen it firsthand in lots of different ways, but it's still shocking because it's not what I believe the American people were voting for when they elected him as president.
- [05:07]
Jim Acosta
And, I mean, since you mentioned you were dean of a law school, let's explain why habeas corpus is important. This is not a cable news interview where we're over in five minutes. We have plenty of time to talk about this stuff. But the website Law and Crime explains why this is important. It says, quote, understood by the nation's high court. Habeas has traditionally been a means to secure release from unlawful detention. And as a means of contesting the lawfulness of restraint and securing release under the basic habeas standard, federal courts consider whether any given detention violates federal law or the U.S. constitution. So, Jocelyn, basically, this is a protection that we Americans have that people in the United States have to protect against the government just scooping you up off the street and throwing you in jail.
- [05:53]
Jocelyn Benson
Yeah, to protect fairness, to protect our safety, to protect against tyranny. It was, you know, directly against a tyrannical regime in England when it was, you know, developed. And so it is. I mean, the American people should be on notice that this is a, you know, sort of antithetical to everything that we are in a democracy. Everything that the rule of law, no matter what our partisan leaning may be, we believe in the rule of law in this country. We believe in our Constitution. And it's also going to have very real ramifications for people in our communities, particularly in our most vulnerable communities. And that, to me, is sort of aligned with the discussion about the new Pope. The overarching feeling I felt around all this is this is just not who we are. It is not who we are. It is not who the majority of American people are, I believe. And so it's terrifying when you have leaders who are trying to make us feel small, like our voices don't matter, and then willing to just rip up the law and ignore basic protections that have been in our country since it was founded to further their political goals, their partisan goals, and who knows what else their goals are. It's certainly not making America great, because that is not. None of this is great.
- [07:11]
Jim Acosta
Exactly. It's contrary to. That's right. It's contrary to the tradition that we have in this country. Of being welcoming to newcomers, welcoming to migrants, and yes, if you're here, if you're breaking the law, if you're a gang member, if you're a violent criminal and so on. I mean, it's logical that we don't want those kinds of folks here in this country if they're here illegally. But at the same time, you know, are we supposed to break the law, you know, violate the Constitution to do all. I mean, that's one of the critical standards here. What would you do? I mean, Jocelyn, what would you do if you became governor? And I know that you're working really hard to make that happen, and you're confronted with this kind of a situation where the Trump administration wants to come in and sweep people up off the streets.
- [07:56]
Jocelyn Benson
Well, I'd say what Governor Mills said in a different circumstance, but I'll see you in court. I mean, and it's the same thing I did when I was as Secretary of State, when we were defending the lawful results of a presidential election. My job as governor, my job as Secretary of State, is to make sure the law is actually followed, that the will of the people, in the case of our democracy, in the case of that election, is respected and protected. So similarly, I'll respect and protect the rule of law and respect and protect our people, because that's my job as governor, to make sure Michiganders are safe. No matter who you are or where you live or where you come from or who you love. My job is to make sure everyone has a fair shot to succeed in our economy. Everyone has access to quality schools and quality healthcare, and they're not gonna be, you know, have communities ripped apart by a federal administration who is breaking the law. So the court system, and I say this as an attorney and someone who used to train attorneys is on our side. I believe in. In circumstances like this, the Constitution is clear. And so whether it's state or federal court, those alongside governors need to be the guardrails in moments like this so that we can work together not just to protect our economy, but to protect our people. Protect unlawful searches and seizures and all the rest that's embedded in our constitution. So long way of saying you use the law to every extent possible to enforce the law and to protect the people in Michigan.
- [09:20]
Jim Acosta
Yeah. And, you know, it is feeling very much like a collision course that governors, that judges. I mean, we saw this judge up in Wisconsin arrested a couple of weeks ago, and I thought, my God. And people were saying, oh, well, she did this, she did that, and what are we doing we're arresting judges. You can also just send an email saying, please don't do that again, or have somebody at the White House give the judge a call and say, by the way, we don't appreciate that going and arresting a judge. It's just bananas.
- [09:50]
Jocelyn Benson
They want us to be afraid. They want judges to be afraid. It's the use of fear as a control mechanism. And I said a few days ago, fear is a tool of the weak to try to control and oppress people in a democracy. But no one, as Eleanor Roosevelt famously said, can make you feel inferior without your consent. Right? So our job in this moment, whether we be secretaries of state or journalists or governors or judges or lawyers or average everyday citizens, our job is to not be afraid. Our job is to be courageous. To know that the truth and the law and the Constitution are on our side alongside the vast majority of the American people, and to cloak ourselves in that, to find strength to stand up to tyranny in this moment. It was the exact same thing that we did in 2020 when my scared. I mean, I had people, armed protesters outside my home in the dark of night saying, come out, and we want to confront you about these results of this election. And in that moment, I was scared. And also I could choose to be courageous knowing that the law was on my side, knowing that the truth was on my side. I knew those results of the election were accurate, and I would stand and protect them no matter what. So we as a country need to find that courage in this moment alongside our leaders. But I'll just also asterisk that and say, I think it's the people of America who can show that courage and demand that courage from everyone else. And that truly is, in my view, who we are as Americans. We are. We, the people, are a courageous bunch. That is. That is the stock that we are made of in Michigan and nationwide. And that's the. That's the grit, the courage that we all need to show right now in this moment and beyond.
- [11:22]
Jim Acosta
Yeah. No, and it reminds me. I mean, I get. I think that's a great segue to your book, the Purposeful Warrior. Congrats on the book. Let's talk about it. And I guess this has to do with a lot of the lessons you learned over the course of your time as Secretary of State. I think you and I have talked about this before. The job of Secretary of State. It's not the sexiest title. You know, it's not like you're traveling the world, going to global hotspots or something. Like that you're there to safeguard elections, which used to be kind of a boring job, sort of like a no brainer. Like yeah, we have nice people who work at the polling station and you go in and you sign a thing and you go in there and you put your little ballot in the box and off you go. And the Donald Trump just threw all of that out the window and now elections are nuts and everybody is at their battle stations and everything else and it just shouldn't be that way. And it's all because, let's just be frank, it's all because of him. He couldn't accept that he lost an election. But what does that experience been like for you?
- [12:21]
Jocelyn Benson
Well, first, I'm not only the Chief election officer, as Secretary of State, my other side, my other hat is that I'm head of the dmv. So I'm very popular. You know, like everyone wants to see me.
- [12:33]
Jim Acosta
I won't, I won't do anything on that. We won't hold you against, hold that.
- [12:36]
Jocelyn Benson
Against you for that the DMV run. Well, I hope everyone got their real IDs this week, if not before. But, but, but, but we've actually eliminated wait times and sort of on the other side of the, of the coin of protecting democracy is making government work well so that when you vote you're actually seeing results. Right. And you're not. And so, so though in many states the DMV is the butt of jokes, we have, have self service stations and mobile offices and services online and no wait times in our branch offices. So that's good, it's a good story. I've loved that part of the job. But yes, also the chief democracy officer for the state and similarly same sort of thing. Despite all the chaos that can surround and swirl elections, I've worked with our 1500 clerks to make sure we are giving every citizen confidence and clarity and certainty that when they vote their votes get account. And so in this era we've also had back to, back to back the highest turnout elections in our state's history in 2020, in 22 and in 24 and breaking turnout records nationwide all the same. So we've actually had very successful and smooth elections, no challenges really at the polls. And it's really more of a success story. It's just been, and under the cloud of the Trump sort of era and misinformation, which is really to me the heart of it. And, and, and I would argue even foreign adversaries who have been as we all know, directly connected to that Misinformation that has caused a lot of chaos and division and mistrust in processes that are actually very secure and reliable.
- [14:09]
Jim Acosta
Yeah. And I mean, the. The experience that you had. I guess the long story short is.
- [14:16]
Jocelyn Benson
Yeah.
- [14:16]
Jim Acosta
Is it just shouldn't happen. The experience you had is just abnormal. It is not the normal experience. And, you know, folks who are a little older, some of our folks who tune in every day, you know, they get this. They totally get this. And I appreciate that, and I love that so much. But a lot of younger folks are now getting conditioned to this new reality, which is elections are just gonna be bonkers in this country, and every four years, it's just gonna be nuts, and it just shouldn't be.
- [14:48]
Jocelyn Benson
Yeah. And it's sort of the same line with election professionals. You know, we are bipartisan, transparent, professional people who just want to do a job. It is a ministerial role. Right. It's not a glamorous one. It's one of just making sure the trains run on time, making sure the, you know, that every I is dotted and T is crossed and that our elections are run well and smooth and secure for everyone. And so to be under this scrutiny in Michigan and elsewhere has been like being in the eye of the storm continuously. And it really started in the lead up to the 2020 presidential election. And we. I mean, I remember in the spring of 2020, there were. There was chatter that Trump was going to issue an executive order canceling the election because of COVID And so it started around that we had to battle this misinformation. Then again, confidence, clarity, and certainty was our North Star. And just sort of staying, you know, on the professional side of things. But it's. But it's required a grit. It has required a backbone. It has required all of us to be very clear about who we are and what our jobs are and to take any wind at our face and other types of real threats that have been lobbied at us to just do the jobs we were elected to do and to do them well.
- [16:07]
Jim Acosta
And do you worry that. I mean, I saw a viewer just comment and say, you know, if we even have elections, how far do you think Trump will go to stay in power or to keep his people in power? And what can be done to safeguard against that?
- [16:24]
Jocelyn Benson
Well, look, you know, probably a week ago, we wouldn't. We. I never thought we'd be here saying, they just announced they want to do away with habeas corpus. Right. Like, there is no bottom. And they continually show, even when we think we've reached the bottom, we know how far they'll go, they go even lower. And so that's really unnerving because when you start to get to the point where you're disregarding the Constitution, you know, there are, you know, you could let your imagination run wild about what an administration determined to stop democracy is going to try to do. And we have examples of that, frankly, throughout history. I think in all these times, however, the power of the people will always be stronger and more powerful than the people in power. And that is an adage, a North Star that I hold onto as well and that all of us need to remember in this moment. You know, we had an election this week, a local election on Tuesday. We have an election scheduled in 26, the elections themselves. I believe as long as us as professionals, election professionals, can continue to show up and do our jobs as Secretaries of State, as local clerks, as local election administrators, we can keep running elections as long as voters continue participating and showing up and voting and being informed and engaged and critical thinkers. Democracy can hold and it can prevail even in this dark moment. But it's gonna require all of us to demand that it does and to work to make sure that it does and to not look away or check out even with all the noise and the chaos of this moment. Because if we do that, then the path to diminish or dismantle democracy becomes much more clear for those trying to do it.
- [18:03]
Jim Acosta
Yeah, and I noticed some of the comments coming in, notifying me, and I'm glad people are saying this, that the mayor of Newark and the New Jersey gubernatorial candidate Ross Baraka has been arrested at the Delaney Hall ICE Detention center in Newark, New Jersey. A spokesperson for his campaign confirmed the mayor has been arrested and detained by ICE. This is being reported by Fox 5 in New York, the local station there, and the US Attorney in that area, Lena Haba, which I can't believe those words coming out of my mouth. She is saying that the mayor of Newark committed trespass and ignored multiple warnings from Homeland Security investigators to remove himself from the detention center. But Jocelyn, this goes back to what we were saying about that judge in Wisconsin. These are heavy handed tactics coming from the administration, sending the message, get out of our way. And it's all about not getting out of the way. Honestly, I think in this moment, right.
- [19:02]
Jocelyn Benson
Now, I think people need to take. If you've ever thought about going in a protest or showing up in support of those who are also showing up, one thing that we can do, if we believe that the power of people will always be stronger than the people of power is to show up and demand justice and demand equality. And there will be brave souls who will. Judges and mayors and local officials and governors and maybe even secretaries of state who will. Who will be used as cautionary tales to scare people. And I'm fully aware of that in this moment. And yet that cannot deter us from doing the work that we have to do, because if we stop, then, I mean, we're the only ones. We're standing in the breach right now, all of us as an American people. And so all of. I think so many stories like this are horrifying, scary, and we have to allow that fear to propel us to be committed to whether it's carrying a sign, protesting, speaking out, saying, no, that's not who we are. Wherever we are, however we are, this is really what also my book is about. There's a chapter saying, finding purpose in your rage. As things like this invoke rage, it can be so easy to just say, I don't want. I'm done. Right? This is too much. I'm leaving the country. Right? But if we can find purpose in this moment and use it as fuel to make us more courageous as a country, as a people, as an individual, that's the only way we get through this. Right? And they are counting on us doing the opposite. So it can be an act of defiance to be courageous in this moment, as you know so well. But that is exactly what this moment requires of us. And that is what those who come before us in other countries and in our own history, as their eyes are on us now. They are watching and expecting us to do this. Our kids, the future, those who will inherit this democracy, their eyes are on us now, too. So even in the midst of all of the immediate fears for us to be able to think about the opportunity to stand firm anyway, is, I think, where we need to be focusing our minds and surrounding each other and building communities around courage and around standing up to tyranny in this moment, because that's what it's going to take.
- [21:23]
Jim Acosta
Well, I mean, I think ice to me, they seem like, I know they have a job to do there, and I'm sure they have some good people there, but they just seem, to me, they seem totally out of control right now. And some of the things that they're doing, some of these enforcement actions, you know, some of these supervisors who are directing some of these agents to do this sort of stuff, they need to keep in mind you are a human being. The people you work with are human beings. And the people you are dealing with are human beings. And if we lose sight of that stuff, I mean, we're in big trouble. And since you're, you're running for governor. Absolutely. And since you're running for governor of Michigan, Jocelyn, I have to ask you, the impact of Trump's tariffs on your state. Reuters reporting that a group representing gm, Ford and Stellantis blasted Trump's trade deal announced with the United Kingdom, saying it would harm the US Auto sector. British carmakers will be given a quota of 100,000 cars a year that can be sent to the US at a 10% tariff rate, almost the total British Britain exported last year, compared to 25% for Mexico and Canada and nearly all other countries. The American carmakers are basically saying the Brits are getting a better deal than, than, you know, cars coming in from Canada and Mexico. What's going on here? I mean, if the big Three automakers in Michigan are upset, it goes back to the question, why did Trump win Michigan? I mean, yeah, you know, you had to know that tariffs were going to adversely impact people in Michigan, but your thoughts on this?
- [22:51]
Jocelyn Benson
Well, I think there's a role for, you know, specific strategic tariffs, as we know, as any economist will tell you, and I think there is, it is important to invest in manufacturing in our country. So on all fronts, I believe in, in that. But at the same time, that's not what this is. These are reckless tariffs that are hurting not just our auto industry, but our farmers. Again, 25% of our economy is agriculture. It's hurting our small business owners who are losing their inventory and aren't clear whether they're going to have an inventory or not. And it is going to directly benefit other countries in this moment, whether it's our auto industry or everything else that we produce here in Michigan. So the bottom line is the people of Michigan voted for this administration. And again, it was a small margin. Alyssa Slotkin also won Michigan in 24.
- [23:39]
Jim Acosta
That's a good point.
- [23:40]
Jocelyn Benson
Hillary Skolten, Kristen McDonald Rivet, Haley Stevens. So a lot of women also won in Michigan in 24, focused on the economy. And it was very clear those who won Michigan in 24 won because they were able to build trust with voters that they would drive down cost of living and make life easier. And for Trump, who won in the same vein on the same message, to now be doing the opposite is not lost and should be not lost on any Michigander, any business owner, any farmer, any veteran, and any automaker, auto supplier or worker. In the industry who are now feeling the pain, who are now struggling even more than we did before the election, before this administration. And so I do think it'll be again. You know, there's, we've got a long Runway between now and 2026, but it's clear that the economy and cost of living will still be on the forefront of the minds of voters in our state. And we've yet to see Trump delivery. If anything, he's only made things worse.
- [24:38]
Jim Acosta
And I know you got a heart out in a couple minutes, so I'm just going to ask you finally, what happened in 2024? And, and thank you for holding your phone. I know that maybe you're sliding there a little bit, but however you can do it is, is just great. And, you know, these are the things that we, we're okay with on the Jim Acosta show here on Substack. Sometimes life is messy. Sometimes, you know, things get a little bumpy.
- [25:00]
Jocelyn Benson
My battery was going to die, so I.
- [25:01]
Jim Acosta
The battery was going to die, so you had to get the.
- [25:03]
Jocelyn Benson
But I'm good now, believe me.
- [25:04]
Jim Acosta
One of the things I look at, besides the comments that come in and how many viewers we have, which is always wonderful, is the battery life on my iPhone. I just, you know, I'm looking at that 5%.
- [25:15]
Jocelyn Benson
So I was like, just give me a second.
- [25:17]
Jim Acosta
And by the way, I'm glad I upgraded my iPhone before Trump got into office. But anyway, that's a whole other thing. But what happened in 2024? What can you put your finger on what was happening in Michigan that the rest of the country just didn't see, or maybe the Harris campaign didn't see or Democrats didn't see on the national level. Do you have thoughts on this?
- [25:37]
Jocelyn Benson
Yeah, I mean, we had 5.7 million people vote in our state and Trump won by 80,000. And, you know, again, it was the same year we saw Alyssa Slotkin, we saw two Democrats elected to the Michigan Supreme Court, we saw congressional races go blue. So all of that said, what the election was really ultimately about was who Michiganders believed and trusted would actually make their lives easier, would, would drive down the cost of living. It really is about the price of eggs. But not just that, about how easy it is to start or grow a business or how affordable it is to buy a home and then to eat that home. And so we had voters who came in and just voted for, for Trump and said they did so in exit interviews because they believed he wasn't going to tax their wages or tax their Tips for servers. And so that was real. The economics were real. And every candidate who was successful were ones who really talked about and convinced voters that they understood the struggle, they heard the struggle, and they were going to get something done and drive down those costs. And that was critical, again, for Alyssa Slotkin talked about that, our successful congressional candidates did. And so it's interesting now because I think you have the politics of cruelty, the politics of chaos and confusion. That's what's emerging out of Washington, that's aligned with decisions, reckless economic decisions, that are making it harder for people to pay their bills and to get by in our state. And I think and hope that the Democratic Party is the vehicle, is the party that can demonstrate to voters in 2026 and beyond that we know how to hear and see the struggles of the people of Michigan and all around the country, and we're able to do something about it, actually get stuff done. And again, governors, I believe, are the ones who are most adept at doing that, especially in this moment. You see a Josh Shapiro in Pennsylvania getting things done. Tim Waltz getting things done. Tony Evers getting things done. J.B. pritzker, Gretchen Whitmer. Right. We're actually trying to move the ball forward in our economy and make things better, driving down the cost of living and driving wages up. So that's going to be my focus as well, as governor. And I'm grateful, again, for the opportunity to. To deliver a message to voters all across the state of hope and optimism that our economy can get better in the midst of all the pain that so many are feeling in this moment as a result of Trump's economic policies.
- [27:59]
Jim Acosta
Yeah. I mean, you're seeing J.B. pritzker out there. I mean, he's giving Trump the business. I mean, there are a lot of governors out there. You mentioned Janet Mills earlier getting very feisty. Josh Shapiro, also known for being very feisty. You're very feisty. And, I mean, I will let you go after this. The whole Governor Whitmer thing with the folders at the White House, was that just overblown? What was your. Do you see that? And did you just think, okay, media, be quiet, or did you think. What I don't know.
- [28:25]
Jocelyn Benson
What I was focused on was the executive order he was signing about Chris Krebs. Right. I mean, it was get over. I mean, this is someone who lost a presidential election in 2020 and needs to be able to admit that instead of investigating people who. Who, like Chris, did stand by that reality. So it's incumbent upon anyone who witnessed that to say, look, and I believe the governor did, but to say this is not who we are and to really make clear that those executive orders were antithetical to everything we believe. And for me as governor, I can only talk about what I would do and say in those situations. And I think you only need to look at how I've been as Secretary of state to see that my focus is just on speaking the truth, being unafraid, and standing up for the people of Michigan, whether it's in protecting their democracy and their rights and freedoms at the ballot box or protecting their economic prosperity.
- [29:21]
Jim Acosta
Yeah, it does make me wonder about, you know, whether it's advisable for national Democratic figures to go to the White House when Trump pulls these stunts. You're absolutely right. That executive order targeting Miles Taylor and Chris Krebs, Absolutely. Just awful. And contrary to American values. No question about it.
- [29:40]
Jocelyn Benson
Appalling. And designed to cause fear. Right? Designed to make us all fear, feel afraid. And that's, that's the theme, the running theme of all of this, whether it's unlawful detentions or all the ways in which this administration is breaking the law. It's designed to make us fear and be afraid and anxious and check out. So our best act of resistance, our best move in this moment, however we define it, is to be courageous, defiant, strong, and very focused on who we are. And the power of our, of our democracy is always going to be fueled by people standing up in defense of it, not by leaders of any party. It's always about the people standing up and demanding a better world that aligns with our values.
- [30:23]
Jim Acosta
Absolutely. Well, we know you are showing no fear and best of luck to you during the campaign. Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson, running for governor of Michigan, out with a brand new book, the Purposeful Warrior. Check out Jocelyn's book. Great to see you. Thanks so much for taking time and.
- [30:42]
Jocelyn Benson
I'm honored to be with you. And people can go to jocelynbenson.com to find out more about me, the campaign and the book. Thank you. Awesome.
- [30:48]
Jim Acosta
Thanks for having me. All the best to you. Thanks. Let's do it again soon. Thanks. All right.
- [30:52]
Garry Kasparov
Bye.
- [30:52]
Jim Acosta
Bye.
- [30:53]
Jocelyn Benson
Bye.
- [30:54]
Jim Acosta
And I absolutely held Jocelyn Benson about as long as I could. We had a hard out at 4:30, but just a great conversation with her. And she, I mean, she obviously has a lot of important things to say and I did not know that about some of her legal background, which I think is very, very important that, you know, we don't lose sight of that, you know, our Constitution is there to Protect us. And this idea that, you know, Stephen Miller is putting out there in front of the White House, I mean, in front of the White House, of all places, that we're going to suspend habeas corpus and they want to just do it for the migrants. Okay, well, who comes after that? We suspend this right against unlawful detention in this country. It just goes to show you that the elevator is not hitting all floors over there at the White House. Ladies and gentlemen, there are a couple of sandwiches short of a picnic. And when Stephen Miller is allowed to go out there in front of the West Wing. I've been over there a million times. Stand in that driveway, you know, where you're supposed to espouse American values. Let's talk about the Constitution, the virtues of the Constitution. And he's out there floating this idea that we're going to suspend habeas corpus, which is what Abraham Lincoln was trying to do during the Civil War. I mean, it's just nuts, bonkers stuff. My next guest here is Garry Kasparov, of course. He is the grand chess master, Putin critic. And, Gary, great to see you. Thank you so much for joining us. You've been a warrior on behalf of democracy, just like Jocelyn Benson has in her state of Michigan. And I'm so glad that you came on the program because I should also mention you've been working on the foundation of something called the Next Move, which is. And the goal of this publication is to offer a positive vision of what we're supposed to be fighting for, rather than only focusing on what we're fighting against. So Gary will talk about that as well. But welcome to the program. And you recently wrote in the Atlantic that, you know, people are sort of waking up to the reality of what Donald Trump's presidency is all about. And you've been looking at all of this and seeing some parallels, a lot of parallels with what has been happening in Russia under Vladimir Putin. Gary, first of all, thanks for coming and great to see your thoughts.
- [33:09]
Garry Kasparov
Well, thank you very much for having me. So you don't have to be a very good chess player to see the parallels. And you don't have to be a computer. You don't need silicon brains to see patterns. Of course, America is not Russia. And I repeated a number of times in my two articles in the Atlantic that American democracies, well established Russian democracy was very feeble, without deep roots, but patterns, it's the, it's the building oligarchy. And again, it's very important to understand the nuances. It's all Very easy to say, oh, all rich people, oligarchs. Rockefeller was oligarch. Musk is oligarch. Bezos is oligarchy. Not so fast. The true oligarch in the full meaning of this word is Elon Musk and by the way, Donald Trump. Because true oligarchy is where there are no lines dividing decision making, real power and money. Rockefeller had to buy influence. He could buy Democrats, Republicans. Again, I'm not here to argue whether just buying influence is good or bad. What we're saying is there was always one level between the money and the power. Elon Musk and Donald Trump erase this line. They have money and they have power because they control the levels of power. So what they do, they privatize that. And very important element of building oligarchy is to destroy, erase, weaken the public levels of power. And that's exactly what they're doing. They are not simply ruining the so called deep state, they are basically creating a parallel one, shifting the decision making process from the established institutions that have been working for 250 years into the hands of very few selected by Trump. So we are yet to reach the full blown constitutional crisis, but we're on the way there. Whether it will take three, four months, five months, six months. But clearly we reach a point where Donald Trump will defy Supreme Court. Supreme Court will have no choice because I think even the Supreme Court will say no to Trump. Whether it's birthright, citizenship, whatever, they will be hard. No, he will saying, okay, I'm in charge. So Chief justice will have to go to tune and to Johnson, they'll run to the White House crying. And we don't have to have very rich fantasy to imagine that Trump will tell them go to hell. And that's a problem.
- [35:39]
Jim Acosta
Well, and we're just seeing, I mean, one alarming sign this afternoon, Gary, with this breaking news that just came down in the last hour or so that ICE has arrested the mayor of Newark, New Jersey. A couple of weeks ago, it was a judge in Wisconsin who was placed under arrest. Now ICE is arresting the mayor of Newark, New Jersey, accusing him of trespassing at an ICE detention center, which is just, you know, again, you tell the mayor, don't do that, you send them on his way, whatever, but to arrest him. They're trying to send a message. And this is, I want to read just a little bit from your article in the Atlantic because it's important, Gary. It says, if this sounds alarmist, please forgive me for not caring. Exactly. 20 years ago, I retired from professional chess to help Russia resist Putin's budding dictatorship. People were slow to grasp what was happening there, too. Putin's bad, but surely he'll stop short of. And you can fill in the blank with a dozen things he did to destroy Russia's fragile democracy and civil society, much many of which Trump is doing or attempting to do in America today. To me, that is the perfect statement for all of this, because when you talk to people, they'll say, oh, he's a bad guy, or, gosh, he's full of shit. But he's not going to do this and he's not going to do that, and he's not going to take it that far, folks. There's no guarantee of that. What is your guarantee of that?
- [36:56]
Garry Kasparov
There is. There is very long list. He will never do that. Back in 2016, when he won his first elections, I wrote about it, that so many things that people take for granted in America, it's not codified. It's, you know what? Nobody did it before. And Trump's reaction. So what? Sue me. So it's. He is. He's going to use. And he already demonstrated it. Every loophole. And unfortunately, there are too many, because many elements of American democracy were built on kind of code of honor, tradition, customs. Again, nobody did it before, so. And Trump successfully normalized things that were unthinkable. So just for a moment, think about Watergate. I mean, nobody will even notice Watergate now because we have watergates 10 times a day. So it's normalization. That's another very important thing. Yes. People say, oh, they arrested the mayor. Maybe mayor didn't behave himself, but it's not going to happen in our town. Excuse me. So that's what happens. You know, they test the water. Exactly. It's here, there. Just, you know, arresting the judge. Again, judge was wrong, but demonstrated. And also, why to shackle? So this is this why to arrest the man.
- [38:06]
Jim Acosta
And I brought this up with Jocelyn Benson. You can send an email, you can make a phone call to the judge and say, please, no, no, no.
- [38:13]
Garry Kasparov
The goal is to send the message again. They see what are the limits. And every time that civil society gives in, you know, every. Every inch of our freedom that is being acquired by, by these measures means that they will move further.
- [38:27]
Jim Acosta
Yeah.
- [38:28]
Garry Kasparov
So it's. They'll. They'll take any territory that is available.
- [38:31]
Jim Acosta
And the other thing, too is people have been saying, well, what happens if he defies the Supreme Court? And what if he does this and what if he does that? Gosh, we're in unchartered waters and so on. The Constitution of the United States does provide the Congress with the ability to impeach and remove the President. Now, I know the Republicans are in charge up on Capitol Hill, and we should not count on any profiles encouraged there, but, my God, if Trump takes things way too far, it's going to be pitchfork time in D.C. if, if they. If the Republicans don't do this. And, I mean, I know it's fantasy land, but.
- [39:03]
Garry Kasparov
Jim, Jim, wait, wait. You said taking things too far. Can you be more specific? What does it mean, too far? You're right. He has taken on May 9 or too far in June 10. So too far changes every day, if not every hour.
- [39:19]
Jim Acosta
You're right. They're moving the goalposts every day. You're absolutely right, exactly.
- [39:22]
Garry Kasparov
But that's how you build dictatorship. Yes, that's. It's a. Again, it doesn't happen overnight. People somehow have an idea that dictatorship means you have tanks on the street, Pinochet, coup d' etat. No, no, no, no, no. Real dictatorships are built slowly. We see there was little change, you know, in one law or another, comma, here, full stop here.
- [39:42]
Jim Acosta
So.
- [39:43]
Garry Kasparov
And then one day you say, wait a second, this is. I cannot go here, I cannot go that way. So Trump is aggressive, but so far, they're new again. There's no true resistance, organized resistance, because I think.
- [39:58]
Jim Acosta
No, go ahead, finish. I'm sorry.
- [39:59]
Garry Kasparov
I think it's. Again, because I think there are so many things again. It's so many looming targets. That's why my message is, let's consider something that unites all of us. Let's not talk about how many agencies Elon Musk is trying to ruin, how many cuts. It's not about Trump's policies, because some of the policies are popular. People say, oh, dosh is doing a good job. Doge is unconstitutional, period. Let's concentrate on defending constitution. Let's agree that we will not disagree on many things that might separate us, because saving republic requires very big tent.
- [40:34]
Jim Acosta
Gary, the other reason I want to talk to you is because of, obviously, Russia's war in Ukraine. And, you know, I was at a film screening for Words of War the other night, which is about the murder of the Russian journalist Anna. And I'm going to say her name wrong again. And you got a shout out in the film because you described her as being the conscience of Russia and so on. But I do want to mention the fact that they just had a victory day parade in Moscow. They do these spectacles of course, to mark the anniversary of the Soviet victory over Nazi Germany. But what struck, and the New York Times wrote about this, what struck the New York Times journalists about this and what strikes me about this when I watch this unfold is how Russia is very much in words of war. The film gets into this. Russia has very slowly but surely fallen under basically a new kind of iron curtain keeping information out. People there in Russia do not have, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here, the whole country appears to be just brainwashed to stand behind Vladimir Putin, with the exception, obviously, of a very small and quiet, to some extent dissident population. But your thoughts on that and could that sort of situation happen here in.
- [41:51]
Garry Kasparov
The U.S. first of all, about this military parade and about the Russian victory, Soviet victory or Nazi Germany? Yeah, I, on, on, on my substack, the next move, I had an article called Great Patriotic Lies. It's few people understand that the Soviet Union celebrated the V Day one day later on the 9th of May, not on the 8th, because Stalin was so angry that it's the, the May 8th capitulation, actually that took place on the 7th was under American control. Eisenhower was in the center. So he ordered a second ceremony, bringing Marshal Zhukov and all German generals to sign again. And I grew up in a country where we didn't know that the war was over there early. So day nine is a Soviet fake. It just gives you an idea that is even today, eight years later, they still celebrate this fake holiday. And of course, Putin used it just to connect his fascist aggression to genocidal war in Ukraine with Great Patriotic war. So actually the roles are reversed. So is Putin playing Hitler these days? But he knows how to control the population. You are surprised that the people are brainwashed in Russia now, in this country, in the United States, half of the population in the country where you can switch from Fox to CNN to msnbc, you can have so many channels still believe that the FBI was bad and KGB is good. So now imagine 25 years, you know, and only one channel. We had few in the beginning, but basically in the last probably 15 years, it was total dominance on television. So you can hardly blame these people because, you know, they, they listening to that. And I can tell you, even I found out that if I spend three days just listening to this nonsense, it starts, you know, it's, you know, it.
- [43:40]
Jim Acosta
Starts to sink in.
- [43:42]
Garry Kasparov
Exactly. Because you can't imagine they lie. I mean, just in every instance you say, oh, maybe even if 10% is what they say is true. No, it's 100% lie.
- [43:52]
Jim Acosta
Yeah.
- [43:53]
Garry Kasparov
Instead.
- [43:53]
Jim Acosta
And Trump wants to get rid of pbs. He wants to get rid of npr. They want to turn the Voice of America into Oan. He is trying to intimidate ABC and CBS and suppress what's taking place there. There are other examples. Obviously we could bring it up.
- [44:08]
Garry Kasparov
It will go on again. It's. Anything they can grab, they will grab. So it's, the Constitution is a piece of paper. Just, you know, it's, it sounds, sounds just, just a bit odd to American either. But it's, it's, it's as valuable as, as your resolved defendant. You know, it's, it's, it's if, if, if you're not willing to fight for that. So then it's, who cares? Technically, Congress is in charge, but they, you know, they, they capitulate it, which is amazing because you have only three Republicans. You need three votes to shift sides in the Congress and form the Senate. And they are terrorized. Elon Musk totally freaked out.
- [44:46]
Jim Acosta
And I made an example out of this yesterday where they voted to rename the Gulf of Mexico the Gulf of America. Only one Republican, Don Bacon of Nebraska, voted against it. They all voted for it. It was introduced by Marjorie Taylor Greene, who is a professional presidential speech heckler. That's basically what she does. And they were basically just doing Trump's bidding. And for anybody who wants to watch that video, I put it out there.
- [45:11]
Garry Kasparov
But, you know, but it's an example.
- [45:13]
Jim Acosta
Of how they are under his thumb. They just, but, you know, but many.
- [45:16]
Garry Kasparov
Of them, many of them, and I tell you, it's, I don't think that Donald Trump, you know, is, is, is very popular among them behind closed doors, you know, in private conversations. They are, they, they, they hate him. I mean, they, they know who he is. You know, that's, it's, you know, it's, it's narcissistic, moral, you know, just who is just losing his marble every day. So, but they think, okay, this is a little thing. Yeah, who cares? Gulf of Mexico, Gulf of America. But little things, you know, just build up. That's how you just, you know, you, you succumb to a would be dictator because, you know, he's, he's testing them. This is a test. You know, guys, I want to, I want to rename Mars, you know, whatever this is they call it, Melanie. So big deal. No big deal. Absolutely big deal. Because every stupid thing that, that every, every whim of, of of Trump that you support, you know, basically gives you more confidence and next time you'll come with something bigger. Okay, fine. Today.
- [46:11]
Jim Acosta
Exactly. It's when the law firms bend the knee and the media bend the knee and all these institutions bend the knee. It just encourages.
- [46:17]
Garry Kasparov
They have not there that they have not, you know, pushed him back on Canada. Oh, they think it's stupid. Yes, it is stupid. But they have not pushed him on that. They have not pushed him back on Greenland. Did you see that? I read that they shifted. They shifted the Greenland from European Command, US Command to domestic command, Northern Command again. Maybe it's this logistic move, but I think that the way Trump looks at the global map, he believes that China should take Asia, Russia somehow should talk to Europe and just solve their problems. But Western hemisphere is an American backyard.
- [46:56]
Jim Acosta
Yeah.
- [46:57]
Garry Kasparov
And Trump will not stop because people like him do not stop until they're stopped. And it's very important to understand that is just. And it's not time now. What scares me that it's not time to talk about 2028. Stop wasting time about Democratic hopefuls for 2028. We have to make sure that 2026 will be free and fair elections. It's very important to concentrate on taking, taking the levers of power from Trump's hands as long as they matter. Congress still matters. But 2026 midterm will not be just easy walk. You know, it's not automatic. Yeah, he's bad. And the pendulum will shift. Not with the amount of control they exercise, not with the amount of money they can throw in, and not without a clear narrative that Democrats can introduce, which that's why I say concentrate on Constitution, stop culture wars. You know, it's not time for us to agree to disagree on items that are important but not crucial at a time where Constitution is in great danger.
- [47:59]
Jim Acosta
Well, Gary, I mean, you've always been a strong defender of democracy. You can find Gary on substack. It's a great place to read Gary's work. And then this organization that you're putting together, people need to check that out as well. Just really, really appreciate the time today, Gary. Thanks so much. And let's do this again soon.
- [48:20]
Garry Kasparov
Absolutely.
- [48:20]
Jim Acosta
So.
- [48:20]
Garry Kasparov
And I hope we have some good news to report back.
- [48:24]
Jim Acosta
I hope so as well. I kind of doubt that we will, but we'll stay on top.
- [48:27]
Garry Kasparov
No, but wait one day. So. And otherwise for your listeners, I hope they can see me on, on the next move. It's a chess just like a substack. Because I want to think about strategy, not just about complaining, but, but, but looking for victory. That's why my motto is stop whining, start winning.
- [48:45]
Jim Acosta
There you go. And you know all about that, Gary. That's for sure. The next move. I'll check it out. Gary, thanks so much. The great Gary Kasparov. Hope to talk to you again real soon. And thanks for catching me there during the interview saying maybe he hasn't gone that. Yes, he has. He's gone very far, over and over. Very good to see you. Thanks a lot. Great stuff. All right, quick final word, everybody. So, okay, so here's the deal. Here's the deal, folks. You know, we had a new pope, he's an American pope, and so on. Here's the deal. We have At God coming up on the program, but we have to do a little bit of, how should I put this substack jiu Jitsu here to get at God on the program. So this is what's going to happen. And I am hesitant because I'm going to be talking to OD to say this is my contribution to Fuck It Friday. I'm just going to say it that one time. This is what we're going to do because At God works in mysterious ways. We have to stop down on the program right now, but we're going to get back up on the program in just a few moments. So think of this as like a substack commercial break, even though for our subscribers out there, this is not a commercial break. We're just going to stop the program, and then in a few moments, we'll get back up with @God. So you just have to be patient. So we're all going to end here, and hopefully, God willing, at God willing, I'll be back on in a few moments with @God. All right, so stand by. I'm ending the program right now, taking a little break. We'll be back up in like a minute. I'll talk to you just a second. All right, talk to you soon. All right, bye.