← The Jim Acosta Show
The Jim Acosta Show
Norm Eisen on Breaking News that Democracy Defenders are Suing for Epstein Files plus Cliff Schechter and Adam Klasfeld
00:55:56
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- [00:00]
A
Well, hey, welcome to the Jim Acosta Show. It's another day that ends in Y and Donald Trump's assault on American democracy. He keeps talking about how people want a dictator in America, even though nobody in their right mind is saying that right now. Which explains why he's saying it today at the Cabinet meeting. He did it again. And of course, he's engaging in this nonsense while he's arming National Guard troops in Washington, D.C. he's going after his political enemies like John Bolton and Chris Christie. He's threatening the Federal Reserve, which of course, might have an impact on your wallet and maybe people will start paying its attention then, Right? But my big guest this hour, Cliff Schechter, ad man for Joe Biden in 2020, when the Democrats were hitting hard back in those days. He runs Blue Amp on Substack. And Cliff, the dictator fantasies continue. I mean, he was doing this in the Cabinet meeting earlier today. He says, so the line is that I'm a dictator, but I stop crime. So a lot of people say, you know, if that's the case, I'd rather have a dictator. Nobody wants a dictator unless you're crazy.
- [01:03]
B
We don't want a king. We don't want a dictator. We don't want anybody who walks up, you know, Air Force One with toilet paper hanging from their shoe and their tie hanging down to their knees. It just looks like they slopped out of bed. This, there's nothing about this guy that, that we want. And he thinks we want him to be our dear Leader. He's putting his picture on everything. Right. I expect the Kim Jong Un haircut is, is coming soon. The sort of spiky. Okay, I'll joke, but in all seriousness.
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A
There'S not enough hair there. I mean, I don't know what that stuff is up there. They'd really have to, you know.
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B
Well, Penn Jillette dubbed it piss cotton Candy. And I've never been able to call it anything else since I heard that.
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A
There's no topping that. That's actually the best.
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B
No, you can't top that. But what's so frustrating about it all.
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A
Is just, I was thinking maybe orangutan ass here, but I, you know, I don't want to keep going, but you can.
- [01:51]
B
No, no, keep going, Jim. I love it. It's a whole other side of you we never got to see on cnn. No, but I mean, that's the thing is right, we. Nobody wants this. And yet he is so stupid. He's got such diarrhea of the mouth that he can't not say these things. And so it's like we've got the stupidest wannabe dictator ever and our media still can't manage to tell people what is going on. Tax in the Federal Reserve is ridiculous. Tariffs, you know, they're using 1973, you know, Home Rule act in D.C. to bring in these cops, are bringing the National Guard take over the police. And, and what's quite clear is the Republicans don't think do things like Democrats. Sadly, in this one area, they're better, which is they don't do things in isolation. They organize their messaging. And to me, this is all about 2026, which is they had crime and immigration, which they had pulled a huge psyop and convinced people that cities are these all dirty and you know, they're squalid. And it's like it looks like Escape from New York, which by the way, growing up in New York, the late 70s kind of did look like that in New York. Warriors and stuff like. But, but they make it sound like it's like that now, which is ludicrous. No, but he, but, but they're all doing it. You can tell it's coordinated. Vivek RAMASWAMY and, and J.D. vance, who are from the city. I live in Cincinnati. There's that one brawl outside of a club here. And they made it national news because someone black had punched somebody. White Ashless Bale, Right? Yeah. And now he's sending in the National Guard to Chicago, which is if you follow this stuff for years, you know, to Republicans, Chicago equals black. New York City equals Jewish, San Francisco equals gay. If they want to throw slurs at you, like when Ted Cruz once said that Donald Trump had New York values, we kind of all knew what he was saying. So I'll sum it up like this. They're sending the National Guard and they sent him into 19 red states, as they've said, a state like this where Sherrod Brown only lost by three points and is now running again without Trump at the top of the ticket and unpopular Trump, he could win. But if they send in these National Guard troops and they first say there's crime everywhere and push out all these images and try to bait black folks and others and then be standby polling places in Columbus, Cincinnati, you know, Cleveland, Akron, that's the plan is they're going to push this whole narrative for two years with the cashless bail, the National Guard, the whatever that we're not. That we're nothing like, I mean, crime is down. What was it? Homicides are down 30% in Chicago. I believe it is. And firearms Deaths are down 40%. D.C. is the lowest crime rate in like, 30 or 40 years. Exactly. It's fantasy.
- [04:21]
A
Yeah. And it's dropping in Baltimore. I think homicide is down 11 or 12% in D.C. and I get this earlier today, I don't know if you saw this Cliff, but the local station Channel 5 here in Washington reporting that the National Guard was picking up trash in Lafayette park right outside the White House. A full busload of National Guard members were seen picking, Picking up trash around Lafayette Park. That's an insult to the National Guard. This is not. They've been brought to Washington to pick up the trash.
- [04:51]
B
Come on. I mean, they're just happy they didn't have to roll out, I guess, a carpet for Putin. Right. So I guess it's getting slightly better for our. I mean, yeah, I mean, I, I look, I let my veteran, my friends who are veterans talk on this about. No one has disrespected, you know, the veterans, active duty, military, National Guard, everyone more than this guy. And it's just amazing. I mean, any of them still stick around. In fact, one of the ones, a veteran, one who burnt that flag outside of the White House, and good for him. Those are the kinds of displays that we need, especially by folks like that who fought for this country and put on the line to show, no, we didn't do that. To fight for a dictator, to fight for a king, to fight for this little baby, you know, who obviously thinks that, you know, anybody slightly insults him, that's a reason to send in National Guard. That's a reason to punish them with taxes or tariffs. I mean, he's, he's a, you know, he's a child who never developed mentally. And this is, and somehow 40, was it 48, 47% of this country was like, yeah, that's the guy, the one with the piss cut and candy hair who can't tie his tie and doesn't, you know, doesn't understand tariffs.
- [05:56]
A
And he's wearing the weird hats in the Oval Office. I mean, it's, it's totally out of control. But I want to talk about sort of your wheelhouse, and that is where Democrats should go from here. You and I were, you know, pinging each other back and forth last week, you know, basically saying, Gavin Newsom, governor of California, has the right idea. Trashing Trump, mocking him, just going after him ruthlessly, the way they, in MAGA world go after everybody else ruthlessly. And then J.B. pritzker of Illinois, I Mean, you know, I'm just looking at some of the comments he made. Was it 24 hours ago? And he says to the Trump administration officials who are complicit in this scheme, to the public servants who have forsaken their oath of the Constitution to serve the petty whims of an arrogant little man, to any federal official who would come to Chicago and try to incite my people into violence as a pretext for something darker and more dangerous. We are watching and we are taking names. I like the fact that he is suggesting and hinting and basically saying accountability is coming. And I think that needs to be one of the messages out there that, that Trump and the people need to know, you keep pushing this in this direction, there's going to be accountability for you. You're not going to get away with this.
- [07:08]
B
No, absolutely. I mean, sadly, like DC because they kept it in a state of limbo, and frankly, we didn't fight it hard enough when we had 60 votes, we should have made it a state right away, but we were being nice, which kills me, you know, But Chicago, it's very clear, right? He doesn't have the right to go in. It's what made some of the COVID restrictions more difficult. He does not have the right to go in and take over the police. He doesn't have the right to just, you know, go in and take over the National Guard. There's certain. I mean, you need an insurrection act for that kind of thing to happen. I'm sure he'll tie it. What I like about JB Pritzker is because to me, somebody needs to do what I would call a reverse, in a way, George Wallace, because when he did it, obviously it was evil, but needs to stand there and say, you know, your troops, your personal Stasi, is staying out of here today, staying out of here tomorrow, and staying out of here forever. To stand at that border or at that wall and just say, you're not coming in, and if it creates a constitutional crisis, but bring their National Guard and bring their police, who they control, not Donald Trump, and say, no, get the hell out of here, or more to the point, get the fuck out of here. You don't belong here. You don't have this power. You don't have these rights. We're suing you in court, and in the meantime, you're not coming into my state. And that is what we need at this point.
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A
Yeah, and it seems to me that the Democratic Party is, Is dealing with some. Some image issues. I mean, I think that the public Approval numbers for the Dems right now are pretty bad. I think a lot of it is because of the way the Dems, you know, and the leadership up on Capitol Hill were being rather deferential to Donald Trump in the beginning of the administration. And I think that's just lingered and it's just really infuriated Democrats to the point where I just don't. I don't know if they're going to, if they're going to come around when it comes to the party, unless there are major changes in the leadership. And wondering what your thoughts are on that, because it just seems to me that it's just not going to happen. And if you keep things depressed, if you keep things deflated, it's going to hurt the party going into the midterm cycle.
- [09:18]
B
I mean, very much. Yeah, look, the Republicans images in the toilet and like our image is sort of on the toilet seat at this point, slightly above theirs. And we've gotten it that way because we're not speaking Gavin Newsom, why he's done so well. First of all, politics is psychological warfare. You're fighting on that front and he gets his folks get that. Second of all, you need to hit back and get media coverage. And our corporate media loves sensationalism and loves all this, but you need to hit back in a way that will hurt, that will mock the other side, that will make people that maybe don't even pay close attention laugh at them and not take them seriously. It is hard to come back from that. And we've seen individual examples. Jasmine Crockett has been great at this AOC and from different wings of the party show I don't care because I only care that you fight these guys. Jasmine Crockett, AOC Eric Swallow. Dan Goldman's been terrific at it. But the problem is, and I'm sorry, like, this pisses people off and maybe they never take my calls again. Fine. Our leadership is in the way. They are stopping the people, the grassroots and the folks who are younger and newer to our party, who want to fight this every step of the way, who are willing to get arrested, who are willing to stand there and get. I mean, this is. This has to be akin to the civil rights battle and just the way they've lost their popularity on immigration because people have seen the cruelty, have seen the viciousness. Democrats need to be willing to stand there. And no, it's not fun getting your head beat in. And I'm not saying that's a great thing, but we need to be the ones who don't commit acts of violence and show people who these people are. And I'm sorry, we need leaders out there. We've had some great speeches and that's important, too, because people say, oh, that doesn't mean anything. It does. It gives people courage. When someone like Cory Booker calls out his own side, that is important. But we also need folks playing the meme game and mocking them like Gavin Newsom is. But we also need people that are willing to put it on the line and stand at that wall. And if we do that, people will reward us for our strength. I don't care what it takes at this point. And it's something that's that, oh, well, is that a constitutional question? I don't care. Do it and let the courts tell us because that's what Republicans do.
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A
And their heads are blowing up over at Fox over what Gavin Newsom has been doing, you know, for folks who are, you know, wringing their hands.
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B
Well, in their defense, Sean Hannity's head is already so big that I don't know if it can.
- [11:37]
A
That's true. Any more helium goes in there and it's going to be full blown Hindenburg.
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B
But, yeah, exactly. Right.
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A
No, but I, you know, but that should, that's your tell. That should tell you right there. If it's pissing off Fox, it's working.
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B
Right?
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A
Do more of that. Right?
- [11:52]
B
Right. Like, oh, no, Fox is complaining about something we're doing and saying it's not good. We should listen to them. You know, and for anybody who pretends to be anti Trump, and again, I don't care if this gets me in trouble, but anybody who pretends to be anti Trump, although it depends on the week for Joe Scarborough, I guess, but yeah, you know, whatever. And is lecturing Gavin Newsom like, like Joe Scarborough, like, you know, Donna Brazil on Fox. Honestly, again, I'm just going to say fuck off. All right? We're in a war right now. It is a battle for the, you know, I sound like Joe Biden or whatever, but we are for the soul of the nation of who we are. Are we a democracy? Are we that, that sort of, of people that are compassionate, that will go out and help people just because they're hurting. Do we believe in the things that these, these guys who claim to be religious actually exist in the New Testament? I don't remember supply side Jesus. I don't remember assault gun Jesus. I do remember the parable of the stranger. All right. And you know, are we willing to go out and do the things and help people and also fight. You can. We need both in the same person. We need people that can do great acts of charity for those who deserve it, but are willing to get in the faces of those on the right and say, we're not doing this. And, you know, and again, if you're one of these Fox News Democrats, as we've always called them, or you're one of those types, just go away. No one's listening. I mean, I guess enjoy your paycheck, Donna. I hope it's worth it because this is the end of your. This is what your legacy is going to be.
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C
Yeah.
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A
And listen, I love Donna. You know, I don't, you know, I'm.
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B
Sorry, I know you mean.
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A
No, no, no, I love Donna. I don't mean any disrespect. You know what I mean? And I get the urgency that you are putting into this. My sense of it is that. And folks are chiming in on the comments there and saying, I like this congressperson or that Congress, no question about it. There are folks like Jasmine Crockett, AOC Bernie. There are folks who are doing it. There's no question about Chris Murphy. Somehow I'm forgetting names. Exact. Eric Swalwellsman. Terrific. And so on. On being on message, it just seems to me that unless the party structure changes and maybe you need a new chair, maybe you need new leadership in Congress and so on, it's going to be a problem, I do think, over in the media. And again, I don't want to, you know, my style is I don't like to go after my friends in the press. They're my friends. And people come after me and I'm like, whatever, fuck it, come after me.
- [14:21]
B
But I'll go after them. Because I was only ever a columnist at the Daily Beast and a contributor, believe it or not, to Sinclair. So I can rip them so you don't have to.
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A
No, but my thing is that the way the Putin summit was treated, as if it was a serious thing, I could tell you from the get go that that was gonna be a total debacle, that there was nothing serious about it, that it was probably half of it was probably cooked up because of the Epstein stuff. And he proceeded to embarrass the nation once again. Right. And what my frustration with the media is that we go through these exercises where we know what he's gonna do it, he's gonna embarrass the country. The press treats it as if this is serious stuff. And oh, my goodness, there's like Reagan and Gorbachev and Reykjavik and so on. And it's horseshit. Everything he does is horseshit. A man who puts on a hat that says Trump was right about everything, even if you go to the supermarket wearing that hat, it's horseshit. And he does it in the Oval Office.
- [15:22]
B
It's the only reason the Gavin Newsom stuff works so well.
- [15:25]
A
That's right.
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B
If he wasn't such a clown, then there wouldn't be all this space to have Jesus tapping, you know, Newsom on the shoulder and all these things. And you're saying it right. When I go after corporate media and look, I've had some friends, plenty of friends in there, and maybe not anymore. I try to point out exceptions when there's some terrific people who do terrific work. Columnist friends of mine, Will Bunch at the Philadelphia Inquirer and Rex Hubke at USA Today and people like that, you know, there are some great folks. But overall, what my problem is, is exactly what you just said. And they're doing it with the National Guard right now, too.
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A
They're doing it with the National Guard.
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B
They accept his explanation. Like he's ever offered anything in good faith. They don't give people context. And when somebody was busted for $25 million fine for ripping people off with Trump University and has scammed people, you know, can't run a, what, a foundation in New York anymore because he scanned so many people that he's been banned from doing it. And on and on and on. We can go through his history then. Isn't it the media's job, corporate media, any media, to say, this guy has a record? We're going to put things in context and we're going to say we're going to be skeptical of everything he says because he's given us that reason.
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A
And the other thing I want to hit on Cliff is the Epstein files. And to me, this is a huge missed opportunity for the Democratic Party. Donald Trump can credibly be accused of being soft on child sex offenders.
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B
Correct.
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A
They had this interview with Todd Blanche and Ghislaine Maxwell, then they moved her to a minimum security prison. That right there. If I were running a Dem super pac, I would create a Dem super pac, soft on pedophiles. Pack and start running ads on cable, on social media, on all the platforms, targeted, micro, targeted ads asking why is Donald Trump being soft on child sex predators? And I, yeah, go ahead. I, I, if I, if I've missed these ads, forgive me, but these, these are ads that should be run right.
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B
Now and I haven't seen them either. No, I, I don't think you've missed them and maybe I have too. So I guess. But if you and I have missed them, they're not doing a really good job of getting them out there, are they? Yeah, you know, he's, he wants to go into Illinois. So when I wrote this piece right there, I'm like, yeah, if you want to go into Illinois, there's a guy there named Denny Aster, the longest serving Republican House Speaker. He went to prison for fondling 14 and 15 year olds. Okay. You had George Nader around you. You want to make Matt Gaetz, who's still under investigation, as far as I know, and the end of the House Ethics Committee, they determined that there was plenty of evidence, even if they weren't going to go forward with something that he had in fact engaged in these activities with young women, what could be called trafficking. Jim Jordan, one of his closest allies, we know here in Ohio, numerous wrestlers have stood up and said he knew what was going on and allowed it to happen. This narrative is not hard to build because sadly it is true. Donald Trump admitted to buying beauty pageants so he could walk in and peak on 15 and 16 years. He sexualized his young daughter in the way he spoke about her breasts and her body. I mean, it's, you know, a 13 year old. She may have pulled the lawsuit back, but accused him and, you know, actually sued him for rape and again and again. So where's the super PAC building this narrative?
- [18:35]
A
And I think they're, you know, like the Lincoln Project folks and Tara Seppmeyers. Some of these folks have been doing some of these things and pointing this stuff out, which is terrific. But I just think the party sent out talking points. Anytime a Dem member of Congress goes on a Sunday talk show or on a cable news show, ask the question, why was Ghislaine Maxwell moved to a minimum security prison? Why would she done that? Why would she? Yeah, and I just, I see this as just very weak sort of milquetoast behavior. And it's got to change.
- [19:06]
B
To me, it's just such terrible memories, you know, I'll never forget, I guess. Now is he governor now? I can't even remember, but Ned Lamont beating Joe Lieberman in a primary in 2006. And until then, the Democratic Party's line was don't talk about Iraq. And they were like, oh, wait, maybe talking about Iraq works and we win the House back in a huge way. It feels like that, oh, we're just going to talk about kitchen table issues. Well, here's the thing. You create a narrative. And what is going on in our economy is part of the narrative of the fact that you've turned over our government to weird, creepy billionaires like Elon Musk and Peter Thiel, who wants to become a cyborg and live forever and.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Which he said. And these guys. And so at this point, even people living in the suburbs who are making six figure incomes are like, I can't afford to send my kid to college. I can't afford child care. I mean, it's them against all of us. And this narrative isn't difficult. If you want to talk about economics, you can talk about the lack of democracy with letting unelected billionaires take control. You can talk about the economy, how we've all been screwed by letting unelected billionaires take control. You can talk about our foreign policy with letting unelected billionaires like Elon Musk and Thiel who close connections via Rumble and Tesla and other things to China, Russia. The narrative structure, which is, I don't get, because this is just basic marketing.
- [20:26]
A
And I don't understand it well. And it's missed opportunity after missed opportunity. Cliff, I'm going to try to, I'm going to try to bring in Norm Eisen here, but let's, let's keep this conversation going. I think Norm's got some breaking news, but, Cliff, great to see it. Love the passion as always, and love the, the hair references. We need more hair references. That's another missed opportunity.
- [20:47]
B
It really is. You know, Pendulette's the top, but I'm going to try to come with a few more up, you know, next time, and we can see if everybody wants to vote out there. Thanks again, Jim. Great to see you, man.
- [20:55]
A
Good to see you, Cliff. All right. The time goes fast when Cliff Schechter and I start talking. Let me, let me see if I can get very quickly over to Norm Eisen. I think Norm Eisen is standing by the wonderful Norm Eisenhower. His organization, Democracy Defenders, have. They have just filed a brand new lawsuit to try to get at some of the documents in the Epstein files. I'm going to try to see if I can get Norm to join us here in just a few moments while we're waiting for the substack machine to do its magic. Let me just tell you exactly what is going on here. Norm Eisen, of course, with the terrific group Democracy Defenders. They've been doing a great work all year long, and just this afternoon, it was being reported, I believe, over in Axios that they are suing for files on the Trump Epstein relationship. So hoping Norm can. I'm just going to send him a message real quick. Sending the invite now. Oh, Norm is saying you will lose me at 4:30. Norm, I'm trying to reach out to you now. Norm, if you're watching, hit the accept button. Trying to bring in Norm right now. And then Adam Klassfield is going to join me. He's with All Rise News in a few moments after that. Norm, let's see. Oh, there he is. Looks like he's coming in now. Perfect. Hey, Norm, how are you?
- [22:26]
D
Hey, Jim, how you doing?
- [22:29]
A
I did not want to lose you. On the breaking news, I just read this that you guys are going right after the Trump Epstein relationship in the Epstein files.
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D
That's right, Jim. Here at the Democracy Defenders Fund, we think that Donald Trump's refusal to release the evidence of his contacts with Jeffrey Epstein is a national scandal. And the Congress has provided for how we deal with it. When the government holds back information that it's not supposed to, that's called the Freedom of Information act, it gives us the right to go to court after making a demand for the files. And that's what we've done. And Jim, this is the very first lawsuit of this scandal to demand the actual files. There have been a couple of skirmishes about procedural questions, but here we're demanding the actual files and we're not going to rest until we get them.
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A
And not to ask the obvious question here, but what exactly are you after? What about this relationship that you really want to target here?
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D
Well, we want to know without any sugarcoating, exactly what did the investigators find out about Trump and Epstein? Of course, we must protect the victims. We don't need to have any victim names in there. But we know from press reporting that Attorney General Pam Bondi told Donald Trump, you know, you're in those Epstein files. We know that, yes. That the Ghislaine Maxwell conversation, which she purports to exonerate Trump and then was transferred to much more favorable prison, country club prisons. That's not a reliable source. So show us the documents. We feel that's owed to the victims, Jim. The victims. One of the lawyers on our team has represented the victims.
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A
Right.
- [24:47]
D
And they're very angry. They feel that justice is not being served. So we're fighting for the victims to get the truth out, with due respect for identifying information. And the American people want to know. So it's the latest of our over 100 legal matters at Democracy Defenders Fund.
- [25:08]
A
And I know you've been very, very busy on all of this. You've been right on, right on target the whole time. But to me, Norm, and I think you touched on this. What is so damn fascinating about this is they put out this ridiculous memo July 7th saying nothing to see here. We're sweeping the whole thing under the rug. We're done with this. We're washing our hands of this, despite saying over and over again we need to release the Epstein files. But it was in May, it's been reported that Pam, Bonnie, as you were saying, and Cash Patel, whoever else went to Donald Trump and said you're in the Epstein files, and, and they've played, you know, three card Monty with this for months now. And we don't know what it is, what it is in the files.
- [25:49]
D
CM they're not getting away with it. They are trying to shake this story and it's one that won't go away. And I'll tell you why. I think that this friendship between Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein and the refusal to provide the information that investigators have collected exemplifies the corruption of the Trump regime that has led to these historically low numbers of. With some polls putting Donald Trump at just 37% of Americans approving of him. This is a story about Donald Trump buddying up to the rich and powerful while the most vulnerable in our society for being injured. And Donald Trump even joked about it to the press at the time, talking about Epstein's proclivity for younger women. Well, it's no laughing matter. We're going to get to the bottom of it, right?
- [26:55]
A
And I mean, the victims, the survivors, they deserve justice. They've not gotten justice. I was looking at what Virginia Giuffre has been saying for some time. I mean, I think she had even been kind of a supporter of Donald Trump heading into the election because she thought, well, maybe he's finally gonna get to the bottom of this. They've been betrayed time and again. And to think that they may even contemplate pardoning Ghislaine Maxwell, setting her free. What a slap in the face to all those victims. I think it speaks to the urgency of what you're doing, Norm.
- [27:31]
D
Well, that's right, Jim. And this actually the very first story just broke and the very first video that I'm doing. You're such a good friend. And the two of us embarked on this path of independent media to be able to go no holds barred at the issues. And this is one that we owe it to the victims. We owe it to the country. We need the truth. There's a saying among litigators. People lie. Documents don't. Let's see the documents. Show me the documents. So that's what we're going to do. And I'm going to hustle back on over, get back to my legal work. But I wanted to jump on with you. Thank you for tenaciously pursuing this story and have me back so I can tell you how it all goes.
- [28:19]
A
Let's do it, Norm. Absolutely. Happy to do it. Anytime. You just say when. But I saw this out there, and I thought, I've got to get in touch with my friend Norman. He's the best. And, and I mean this, Norm, because you and I don't talk enough. We talk occasionally. The American people are so grateful to you and your organization and the people you're aligned with for what you are doing. And history is going to show that you are on the right side of history and. And damn the torpedoes, is what I say at this point, Norm.
- [28:49]
D
Well, that's why I was so glad to. Friends, I was in another meeting, and Jim pinged me. I'm like, okay, I'll step away. I'm going to talk to Jim and his audience because what you do is so, so important. So always an honor, my friend.
- [29:06]
A
Always an honor to be on with you. And this, of course, will go out to all of our folks on YouTube and Apple and all the other platforms. So, Norm, big audience with this breaking news that your organization, Democracy Defenders, going after key pieces of the Epstein files as they pertain to Donald Trump. Norm, great to see you. Thanks very much.
- [29:24]
D
Thanks, Jim. Good to see you.
- [29:26]
A
All right, Norm Eisen with the breaking news there. My man, Norm Eisen, he understands the value of breaking news. Norm and I spending many a day around the anchor desk, and I'm so, so grateful to him. But more importantly, it's about what Norm is doing on behalf of the American people. And folks can say, you know, lawyers, what are they good for? And so on. You've got to remember there are folks out there like Norm, attorneys like Norm, who do this kind of work, public service work, and so really thrilled that Norm is trying to jump into this. And to me, it's just at the perfect time, because Donald Trump, it's been dangerous, what he's been doing so far with these distractions. Adam Klassfeld joins me now. Adam, great to see you. Really appreciate it. I just had Norm Eisen on for a few minutes there. He wanted to jump on and do some breaking news, so forgive me for that, I'm running all of this through the substack machine. So it's not always a perfect science, but glad that you're on. But this Epstein files complaint that Norm and his organization that they filed, I guess we could talk about that very quickly. And then on to other things. It's important because Trump has really been, I hate to say this, kind of successful in playing hide the ball these last, what, couple of months since that infamous July 7 memo from the Department of Justice, trying to sweep the whole thing under the rug.
- [30:57]
C
Absolutely. And one thing that was remarkable about the July memo that doesn't get spoken of enough is that for the first time ever in that memo, they released a statistic about the scale of Jeffrey Epstein's victims. They said more than 1,000. That's from the July memo. So to, on the one hand, say that Jeffrey Epstein's crimes happened on a vaster scale than anyone had ever thought was going on or had ever said in a public document. And then on the other hand, say, you know, there's no investigative lead to pursue, there's nothing to release. There's no more. There's no more there there to say that in the exact same document. That's exactly why there are FOIA lawsuits being filed. That's exactly why. More litigation to get at the truth. Because it's patently absurd to have those two statements at the same time.
- [31:54]
A
Yeah. And, Adam, I mean, the work you're doing with All Rise News is very important. And I do want to talk about a very smart post that you put out there earlier today that I do want to get into. But at the same time, I do want to just sort of pick at this, if we don't mind this Epstein story just a little bit longer. The thing that is astounding to me is they put out the July 7 memo that is, what, a couple of months, possibly that long after Pam Bondi and whoever else at the Justice Department went to Trump and said, oh, by the way, you're in the Epstein files. So they've been working on this for months now. And of course, it was, you know, prior to that. I assume they've been spending some time going through the files and finding these instances of Trump's name in there. We still don't know what they pertain to. We think that maybe it's this one birthday book that was reported on the Wall Street Journal that triggered the lawsuit, but they said multiple instances. And it's astounding to me, to this day, we know so much. We've heard so much about Donald Trump over the years. This one thing he has managed to hide and we just don't know what it is.
- [33:00]
C
Oh, absolutely. And that they dedicated a team to flagging all of these appearances of his name. And look, I mean, folks who had been following this, you know, I've been following Ghislaine Maxwell's trial in federal court and Mar? A Lago was repeatedly mentioned, there was an introduction to Donald Trump mentioned in courtroom testimony. And so he had, it's a matter of public record, his long standing friendship with Jeffrey Epstein. So to a certain extent, it's not surprising that he makes multiple appearances in these memos. He was in the Palm beach area during this time where, where everything was going down. What is incredible is how much in this sweeping of things under the rug, they've been called out on it by federal judges and by the victims themselves. And, you know, this was a story that became a one day story. But I can't believe that it's not a national scandal that you have two federal judges, you know, after the, the Epstein grand jury gambit where they say, oh, we'll give you transparency, we're going to go after the grand jury records. And the grand jury records were never going to reveal anything and they're closely guarded. And you have two federal judges, not one, but two, call it out, say it's a diversion. And you know who signed that request? Pam Bondi, Todd Blanche. And in New York, at least the U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York, the political appointees are called out as engaging in a diversion. How is that not a national scandal? That's true. Yeah. That it's a. These are federal judges saying that the highest levels of the Justice Department are engaged in trying to fool the public. I mean, that's what a diversion is fundamentally.
- [34:56]
A
Yes.
- [34:56]
C
And then you have a public statement from Ghislaine Maxwell's family saying, we wholeheartedly agree. So the victims of the crime say the highest levels of the Justice Department are engaged in a diversion. Two federal judges say you're engaged in a diversion and it's a one or two day story.
- [35:17]
A
No, you're absolutely right. And if the judges get it, you know, the rest of us should get it too. And they have been playing hide the ball, three card Monty, Lucien, the football, whatever you want to call it. And the other thing that, you know is very important in all of this is what happens with Ghislaine Maxwell. I was talking with Dave Aronberg about this and you know, he made a very interesting Point. I wonder what you think about this because you cover it so closely. You know, she's trying to appeal her conviction and her attorney is saying, well, because of this sweetheart deal that was given to Jeffrey Epstein and there are other people involved in the case who were given immunity and so on, that means Ghislaine Maxwell should have immunity and she should be freed from prison, that she, she should have her convictions thrown out and so on. And Dave said, you know, it's not a done deal that that goes away. He said there's a possibility she could win on that. And, and I was wondering what you thought of that, because to me, that's going to be an earthquake if somehow she succeeds and walks out of prison.
- [36:15]
C
Right. I mean, I think that Dave sadly is correct. That's not to say that it's likely. That's not to say that she has good odds, but it's absolutely a possibility. Which is why in a normally functioning Justice Department, when the convicted sex trafficker has a pending petition before the Supreme Court, you don't choose that moment to try to unseal the grand jury minutes. You don't choose that moment to conduct a very weird interview and indefensible interview, frankly. I mean, it's the Deputy Attorney General of the United States. The Deputy Attorney General of the United States isn't the one conducting that interview in any circumstance, let alone when there's that pending appeal and let alone when one of the topics that he's asking her about has to do with active litigation for his former client. You mentioned the birthday book. He asked Ghislaine Maxwell again and again, and it was the most remarkable thing to me when reading those transcripts. He lets Ghislaine Maxwell revised the entire history of her crimes, lets her disparage the victims, doesn't push back on her at all throughout any of that. But when does Todd Blanche have incredible attention to detail when it comes to the birthday book, when it comes to a matter under active litigation by Trump? Then he asks a series of questions about Trump and only Trump. There are dozens of letter writers that contributed to that book. He only asks about Trump. And so he tries to get her on record saying, I don't remember anything. She doesn't say he didn't write it, she just doesn't remember whether he did.
- [38:02]
A
Yes.
- [38:03]
C
And then the most remarkable thing, at the very end of the two day transcript, he returns to this birthday book and he's asking the most detailed questions. What's the composition of the paper? What's the size of the Paper. What was the binding? Did you get it professionally bound?
- [38:22]
B
And.
- [38:23]
C
And where was it? Now, this is. I want to unpack. Why I found this really fascinating because Ghislaine Maxwell said that she got this notebook in discovery suggesting that at least some of it was in the possession of the Department of Justice, which he's the number two of. But he's asking her all these questions, suggesting he doesn't have the original copy. And perhaps his client is very interested in that original copy, which, by the way, the House Oversight Committee just subpoenaed yesterday. So I think it's a story that obviously the Wall Street Journal, a huge story, an active litigation over it, and it's one where we're likely to get more information because of everything that's going on.
- [39:10]
A
Yeah. It's not as though Ghislaine Maxwell said, oh, no, no, that didn't happen. I remember specifically. And that did not. She said, I don't remember. And I thought that was. You're absolutely right. I thought that was so interesting. And I read the Todd Blanche thing the same way you did, which is. It was like, talk about leading the witness. My God. That was like the whole point of this whole exercise. And it jumps off the page that he's just leading Ghislaine Maxwell. Can you. Okay, here's the point where I need you to exonerate Trump. Here. Here's what I need you to say. He's a gentleman and a scholar there. Like, you know, she's saying things about Donald Trump that nobody says about Donald Trump. Even people who like Donald Trump don't say he's a gentleman.
- [39:51]
C
And.
- [39:51]
D
Right.
- [39:52]
A
I mean, it's just unreal.
- [39:54]
C
And she couldn't wait to do it. I mean, not only did he lead the witness repeatedly there, there's. The first person to bring up Trump unprompted is Ghislaine Maxwell. I think the question was, how did you meet Epstein? And Trump is a perfect gentleman. It was almost that much of a non sequitur because I feel like she underst the assignment and she was, you know, she appears to have been rewarded with a comfier prison.
- [40:22]
A
Yeah, it was like pro wrestling. I'm going to body slam you here. You throw me into the ropes there. I do want to. I do want to talk about. Speaking of unpacking, you. You put out a great post on X, the platform that really none of us should be on, but we have to be on. I'm on it, too. And, you know, you made this great point tying the Ghislaine Maxwell situation to Kilmar Abrego Garcia. And you wrote to correct a point that DHS keeps obfuscating. Unlike Ghislaine Maxwell, Kilmar Abrego Garcia has never been charged with trafficking anyone. The trial the Trump administration is trying to avoid with its Uganda scheme is on smuggling accusations. Now, you know, it speaks to something I've been saying, which is, first of all, you know, Donald Trump and his administration, I get. I think they can be credibly accused of being soft on child sex trafficking because of the way they treated Ghislaine Maxwell, the way that she was moved over to a minimum security prison. My God, when does that ever happen? Oh, only when his butt's in a sling, but unpack that for us. Why did you put that out there? I thought that was interesting.
- [41:29]
C
Well, I put that out there because DHS keeps calling him a human trafficker. And for the first part of it, there's presumption of innocence. Even if he were charged with human trafficking, a government account should not be treating that, but he's not charged with that. And a federal judge dressed down, specifically dressed down, the Justice Department, for obfuscating that point, for calling him a human trafficker. And they said that, you know, these words, smuggling and trafficking are commonly regarded as interchangeable linguistically, but they're not legally. Smuggling has to do with transportation. He's accused of driving undocumented immigrants. Those are the accusations. Trafficking has to do with exploitation. And what's the difference? 20 years for Maxwell. And the average penalty under what Kilmar Abrego Garcia stands accused of in the middle district of Tennessee is about one year. So it's just.
- [42:34]
A
It's like driving day laborers around that kind of a thing?
- [42:38]
C
Pretty much, yes, absolutely. And that's part of the reason why he was out on bail. And the Trump administration had to get a new plan because the risk of flight, the risk of flight was said to be, oh, he's facing a heavy sentence. Then the judge came out in that ruling where she differentiated between smuggling and trafficking and said, no, actually, the average sentence is this. And here are, you know, the number of ways we can guarantee his presence at trial. And you're saying one of the over the, you know, through the looking glass moments where the government is saying that his risk of flight is they might whisk him out of the country again. But beyond that, just the reason I posted that, is that it's a pattern of the Trump administration on official government accounts, not only trying to convict him of crimes that they haven't brought to trial, but trying to convict him of crimes of which he hasn't been charged and how they repeat all of the crimes that they haven't alleged that haven't gone through a grand jury. And it's an important point. It's not just something.
- [43:55]
A
It's an excellent point, Adam, and I'm waiting for. And maybe it's already happened, but I would like to see a federal judge slam the Department of Homeland Security for that. Because we can't have a situation in this country where the DHS social media accounts can just go after people like this and put out this kind of crap without backing it up in a court of law. I mean, that, to me, that is some sinister stuff. And the other thing that I wish we could talk about, Adam, is this notion that we can now deport people to countries not of their origin or for that matter, continents not of their origin. Do you think that they can get away with this? Because sending Kilmar Abrego Garcia to Uganda to me is quite a remarkable thing to happen, if it does happen.
- [44:45]
C
Right. And using it as leverage to try to strong arm him into a guilty plea that they said, if you plead guilty, we'll send you to Costa Rica, where you know the language, they respect human rights. They will respect specifically your rights and have confirmed that. But if you don't, well, we'll send you to Uganda, which has been ruled by a strongman for a number of decades, where they haven't given you any assurances that isn't justice. And one of the things that is where there might be some accountability, there is that there's a pending defense motion for selective and vindictive prosecution, where these issues could come to a head, including all of the statements from Kristi Noem, from DHS officials, official accounts from Todd Blanche, from the White House, from Trump himself. There's also possibly this week. You know, we will find out when the schedule is officially set. But Kilmar Abrego Garcia's attorneys filed a new habeas corpus case that is now taking snaking its way through the District of Maryland, where there could be an evidentiary hearing as early as Friday. I'll. I'm planning to go down there to cover it if that in fact happens.
- [46:07]
A
Interesting.
- [46:07]
C
But. But it is anticipated that one of the parts of his habeas corpus petition is that they are holding Uganda over his head for leverage for. For retaliating against him, for exercising his right to be released on bail, that he had won that right from not one, but two federal judges, the magistrate and the district judge who found that the government didn't meet its burden under the Bail Reform Act. So he has the Fifth Amendment right to pretrial release. So that is coming to a head perhaps very soon. And that's what, that's why I think this case is so important. It's how much do what we believe our rights to be, how much do those have teeth. And that's why I'm watching it very closely.
- [47:05]
A
No. And it's up to the courts to maintain our Fifth Amendment rights to due process. Any person in the U.S. stephen Miller, can, while he's hanging upside down in his back closet, can say, people don't have due process in this country unless they're full blown legal US Citizens. But the Constitution says otherwise. And the Constitution, last I checked, is supposed to rule the day. But Adam, great to talk to you. Really appreciate it. Keep firing away on all your social media and the great All Rise News substack. It's terrific stuff. I'm glad we finally got to do this.
- [47:43]
C
Oh, I'm so pleased and so excited that we did as well. Anytime.
- [47:48]
A
Let's do it again and keep us, keep us all abreast of what happens with Kilmar. It's such an important case. They're making an example out of them. And I think the case is, I think, going to change a lot in this country if the courts allow the Trump administration to do what they're doing right now. But thank you, Adam. Really appreciate it.
- [48:06]
C
Thank you.
- [48:06]
A
All right, that's Adam Klassfield. He just does terrific work. And there are so many folks covering this stuff in the journalism lane in terms of what is happening with our courts in this country. My God, that, that is the last of the guardrails, folks. The last of the guardrails. And you know, perhaps it's the election, our elections as well. We'll find out next year if we're allowed to have them. But the courts have to stop. You can't have a situation in this country where, my God, the courts allow the administration to deport people to countries not of their origin or continents of their origin, that Kilmar can just be dumped off in Uganda. You know, if the courts allowed Donald Trump to dump Kilmar in Uganda, that this is just the beginning. This is just the beginning. I do want to mention one other thing, and that is apparently Trump was saying he was lying about Washington, D.C. my hometown. And I'm going to defend my hometown as the old fight song for my football team goes. Fight for old D.C. i'm gonna fight for old D.C. that's what I'm gonna do here on this show. But Trump was saying yesterday that half the restaurants were closed in Washington because nobody could go. This is what he said, quote, half the restaurants closed because nobody could go because they were afraid to go outside. Now those restaurants are opening and new restaurants are opening up. It's like a boom town. This is Donald Trump deluding himself, diluting his supporters as to the impact of his sending the national guard into Washington D.C. and keep in mind, they're now armed. The National Guard members are now armed in Washington D.C. first of all, and thank goodness Jose Andres, he put out a post on this and was fact checking Donald Trump. And yes, I've said, what's the point of fact checking Donald Trump? But half the restaurants in Washington D.C. were not closed. My God, half the people in Washington D.C. are not here right now. They're at the beach. That much is true. But half of the restaurants did not close in Washington D.C. and you know, I mean, I know that facts don't matter to Donald Trump, but reality, some basis of reality should matter to Donald Trump and Fox and MAGA writ large. But my God, half the restaurants close. He just lies. And it's just, and here's the thing, he's trying to claim that somehow he's cleaned up Washington D.C. what, a week or so after sending the National Guard. I'm just gonna go back to what I was saying earlier on in this program, the local Channel 5 station here in Washington, which by the way, is Fox. It's a Fox station, Fox O and O owned and operated station. For folks who don't know that Lingo reported that a full busload of National Guard members were seen earlier in the morning picking up trash around Lafayette park just outside of the White House. For folks, remember Lafayette park or Lafayette Square, is that little square shaped or rectangular shaped park on the north side of the White House. Donald Trump had National Guard members picking up the trash in that park. Picking up the trash. That's what Donald Trump thinks our troops with the National Guard should be doing. And keep in mind, folks, the folks who are coming in from out of the state, places like Mississippi and Tennessee and West Virginia, some of the red states that he's taken the National Guard and put them in Washington, they're being taken away from their jobs, they're being taken away from their families, they're being taken away from their lives, their kids, to pick up the trash outside the White House. This should be a bigger story. Folks, the national news media needs to pay attention to this. Why is Donald Trump assigning the National Guard to picking up the trash outside the White House? It seems to me that that indicates that there, there isn't enough crime here for them to be on patrol for if they're picking up the trash outside of the White. And by the way, if you're going to pick up the trash, we're going to pick up the trash in D.C. folks, you might want to look behind the fence at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. There's plenty of trash to clean up there. I do want to mention one last thing, one last thing, and that is this. I just have to congratulate Taylor Swift. She and Travis Kelsey of the Kansas City Chiefs apparently are getting married. The Associated Press reporting, it's a love story and baby, she said yes. Taylor Swift, Travis Kelce are engaged. They announced earlier in the day. Taylor Swift put it out on Instagram. Apparently she's still hot. Donald Trump. Apparently she's still hot. Remember when you said she's not hot? Apparently she's still hot. In what way is Donald Trump the arbiter of who is hot and who is not hot? My God, he is not an authority on this. He would have, if he were, he would have fixed whatever the hell that is on his head. The makeup, you know, you see how the, my skin tone is pretty consistent here. Just kind of goes from back here, back here. There wouldn't be like lines like the Great Barrier Reef around his face where the orange makeup stops and the white, the, the impossibly wonder bred white skin begins before it goes into, as I said earlier, the orangutan ass hair that he has stapled to his head. My God, he is not the arbiter of what's hot and what's not hot. But in the meantime, I do want to say my congratulations to Taylor Swift, who I always thought was hot, and Travis Kelce. Congratulations to both of them. And I just wanted to end on something nice and positive for once if that's okay. It's summer. Summer's not over yet. And for once I just want to say something nice and not on positive note. Want to thank everybody for tuning in this afternoon. Really appreciate Norm Eisen jumping on with the breaking news, his organization, Democracy Defenders filing a lawsuit to sue for those Epstein files that relate to Donald Trump. Thank goodness. My goodness. So glad that that's happening. Cliff Schechter, who always wants to bring a two by four over the heads, metaphorically speaking, to leaders in the Democratic Party to get their act together and start fighting as if everything is on the line, because it is. And somebody who I think is just a rising star out there, and that is Adam Klassfeld who runs All Rise News. If you're not following Adam Klassfeld, go check him out. He's a really terrific reporter on all Things Legal. And there is so much happening on that front, folks. It is something, I will admit, I don't cover it quite enough. I wish I did cover it more from that standpoint. But I am trying. I'm trying to do the best that I can, unlike Donald Trump, who puts no effort into anything that he does. All right, everybody, thanks again for watching. Still reporting from Washington, I'm Jim Acosta. Have a good evening and go out. And if you're in D.C. go out and have dinner in a restaurant. Not because Donald Trump made it safer, but because it's just what we do in D.C. we go out to dinner. Have a good night, everybody. Take care. Bye. Bye.