Norm Eisen on SDNY resignations, Ezra Levin on Democratic Party options plus Manuel Oliver on "Guac."

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Jim Acosta Show Episode Title: Norm Eisen on SDNY Resignations, Ezra Levin on Democratic Party Options plus Manuel Oliver on "Guac."
Host/Author: Jim Acosta
Release Date: February 14, 2025

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Introduction

On Valentine's Day, Jim Acosta welcomes listeners to a poignant and intense episode of The Jim Acosta Show. The episode delves into pressing national concerns, including high-profile resignations within the Southern District of New York (SDNY), the Democratic Party's strategic responses to constitutional crises, and a heartfelt interview with Manuel Oliver, a father advocating against gun violence through his one-man show, "Guac."

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SDNY Resignations & The Eric Adams Case

[00:19] Jim Acosta:
Jim opens the show by highlighting significant turmoil within the SDNY. Top prosecutors resigned amid allegations that the Justice Department pressured them to drop corruption charges against New York City Mayor Eric Adams in exchange for his support in former President Trump's mass deportation efforts.

Key Points:

• Danielle Sassoon's Resignation: The lead federal prosecutor resigned, citing unethical pressures to dismiss charges against Adams.
• Hagen Scott's Departure: Another top prosecutor followed suit, denouncing the misuse of prosecutorial power.

Notable Quote:
[03:00] Norm Eisen:
"This is no flaming liberal. She soon was a Scalia clerk, the most conservative justice of the Supreme Court, the late Antonin Scalia. She is herself a conservative, but it was so, so odious that the stench was so foul that she and colleagues have marched out of the U.S. attorney's office. This Eric Adams case is just another piece of the puzzle."

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Discussion with Norm Eisen: Rule of Law Under Threat

Guest: Norm Eisen, Senior Fellow at Brookings, Co-founder of the Contrarian, and Founder of State Democracy Defenders Action.

Norm Eisen provides a detailed analysis of the resignations, framing them as symptomatic of a broader assault on the rule of law orchestrated by the Trump administration. He draws parallels between the Eric Adams case and other instances where Trump's actions seemingly undermine legal and democratic institutions.

Key Points:

• Quid Pro Quo Allegations: Eisen emphasizes the potential exchange of dropping corruption charges for political favors.
• Broader Pattern of Corruption: He links these events to Trump's pardoning of insurrectionists and attacks on law enforcement agencies.
• Judicial Pushback: Despite Trump's attempts to influence the Justice Department, Eisen notes that courts, including Trump's own appointees, are resisting these efforts.

Notable Quotes:

• [05:18] "This is a very big national story, and it smells like a quid pro quo."
• [06:03] "The Department of Justice is supposed to go after crime, not allegedly be involved in it."
• [14:48] Norm Eisen: "There are really blatant violations of the law. And even this Supreme Court, which 63 granted him unfounded immunity, a different 5-4 majority said the criminal sentencing on his 34 election interference and cover-up convictions in Manhattan could proceed."

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Democratic Party's Strategic Response with Ezra Levin

Guest: Ezra Levin from Indivisible

Ezra Levin discusses the strategic dilemmas facing the Democratic Party in responding to the Trump administration's maneuvers. He emphasizes grassroots organizing and the importance of a unified opposition to counteract what he describes as authoritarian shifts.

Key Points:

• Grassroots Mobilization: Levin advocates for community organizing and empowering citizens to influence elected officials.
• Challenges in Congress: With Democrats lacking majority control, Levin highlights the reliance on the judiciary and the importance of public demonstrations.
• Critique of Democratic Strategy: He challenges the idea of a hands-off approach, arguing that it inadvertently gives bipartisan cover to extremist policies.

Notable Quotes:

• [19:18] "Donald Trump wants you to think you don't have power. He and Musk and some of the Republicans in Congress, they want you to think that they're all powerful."
• [26:41] "These guys aren't normal Republicans. This is not a normal administration. [...] These folks respect strength. They respect votes. They do not respect your goodwill."
• [34:26] "We should understand the power that they have and say, hey, why aren't you doing that? And then we should rally around them when they do it."

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Interview with Manuel Oliver: "Guac." and the Fight Against Gun Violence

Guest: Manuel Oliver, Father of Joaquin Oliver and Creator of "Guac."

Manuel Oliver shares his emotional journey following the tragic loss of his son, Joaquin, in the Parkland school shooting. His one-man show, "Guac.," serves as both a tribute to his son and a platform for advocating gun violence prevention.

Key Points:

• "Guac."—A Personal Tribute: The play intertwines Joaquin's life with messages advocating for safer communities and stricter gun control.
• Art as Advocacy: Oliver discusses how theater and exhibitions can effectively convey the human impact of gun violence.
• Ongoing Activism: Despite facing setbacks, such as the removal of the gun violence prevention office during the Trump administration, Oliver remains committed to his mission.

Notable Quotes:

• [43:03] Manuel Oliver:
  "We prefer Joaquin be remembered in any other way than just a victim from a shooting. [...] It touches gun violence prevention a lot. But it's about Joaquin. It's about a beautiful kid that we were so lucky to have for 17 years."
• [48:26] Jim Acosta:
  "This should never be normalized. This is not normal for our children to suffer like this, and it is not normal for children to go to school worried about, are they going to have to be in a mass shooting."

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Additional Headlines & Closing Remarks

Other Topics Covered:

• Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth's Remarks on Ukraine: Criticisms of his stance on Ukraine's borders led to bipartisan backlash.
• Vice President J.D. Vance's Comments at the Munich Security Conference: His support for Germany's far-right AfD party raised international concerns, especially with Elon Musk's backing of the same party.

Jim Acosta's Closing Thoughts: Acosta reflects on the day's discussions, emphasizing the critical state of American democracy and the persistent threats it faces from both political corruption and systemic violence. He reiterates the importance of not succumbing to fear or misinformation, urging listeners to stay informed and engaged.

Notable Quote:
"We're not going to give into the lies. We're not going to give into the fear. Hold on to the truth. And hope." —Jim Acosta

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Conclusion

In this emotionally charged episode, Jim Acosta offers listeners a deep dive into some of the most pressing issues threatening American democracy and societal well-being. From the alarming resignations within the SDNY to the grassroots strategies proposed by indomitable activists like Ezra Levin and Manuel Oliver, the episode serves as both a call to awareness and a rallying cry for collective action.

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Stay Connected:
For more insights and in-depth analysis, visit Jim Acosta's Substack.

Transcript

[Jim Acosta]

All right. Happy Valentine's day. It is February 14th. There is always love in the air at the Jim Acosta Show. Thank you for joining me on this Friday. I'm not so sure about the mood at the U.S. attorney's office in the Southern District of New York. Everything is not coming up roses there as top prosecutors in that office have resigned over alleged pressure from the Justice Department to drop corruption charges against Mayor Eric Adams in exchange for his help with Trump's mass deportations. You can see Norm Eisen right there on the screen. He's with the Contrarian. He joins me in just a moment to discuss. I do want to get everybody caught up on this case because there are a few headlines to go over. The New York Times reporting Mayor Eric Adams is facing calls to resign, quote, one day after a fuller picture of the arrangement that led to the Justice Department seeking to drop corruption charges against him began to emerge. The time says this. The revelations came in part from the top federal prosecutor in Manhattan, Danielle Sassoon, who resigned rather than follow orders from Justice Department officials in Washington to drop the case. She accused Adams lawyers of negotiating for a dismissal in exchange for the mayor's help with Trump's immigration crackdown. According to the Times, the lead prosecutor on the investigation, Hagen Scott, resigned as well. In a scathing, undated letter, he wrote that any federal prosecutor, quote, would know that our laws and traditions do not allow using the prosecutorial power to influence other citizens, much less elected officials. Now, prosecutors don't just fire off letters of resignation like this. It's very important stuff. I'm going to ask Norm to respond in just a moment, but I wanted to add this. Mediaite reporting this this morning during a joint appearance with the New York City mayor on Fox and Friends this morning, Trump border czar Tom Homan. Did you see this? Warned Adams. And this was on the air that, quote, I'll be up his butt if Adams doesn't come through on the agreement we made. Those are words coming, folks. I'm not using those words. That is a quote unquote, as we used to say in the old days of television news. From Tom Homan to Eric Adams live on Fox. That comment right there had Democrats like Eric Swalwell alleging corruption. Let's discuss with Norm Eisen. He's here right now. Norm, great to see you. Norm's a senior fellow at Brookings. He's a co founder of the Contrarian and he's a founder of State Democracy Defenders Action. He's an all around legal expert that we trust very Much. Norm, this is not just a Big Apple story. Big Apple corruption stories come and go. This is a very big national story, and it smells like a quid pro quo.

[Norm Eisen]

Jim, what do you expect when you elect the first criminal president? More criminality. And this is a president who we've seen not only pardon these 1600 insurrectionists, including 140 who violently assaulted police, he then took out after law enforcement attacking DOJ and FBI personnel. One of the many cases I've litigated in the past weeks was a case that got an order protecting 6,000 FBI agents from some of his attacks. And then you have the Eric Adams case. It's the same pattern, Jim. Yeah, they baselessly. The Trump Justice Department, apparently led by Trump's defense lawyer in the New York case where he was convicted, Emil Bove baselessly rejected criminal case that was proceeding against New York City Mayor Eric Adams. And when the details came out, it was so horrific that they led the Acting U.S. attorney. This is no flaming liberal. She soon was a Scalia clerk, the most conservative justice of the Supreme Court, the late Antonin Scalia. She is herself a conservative, but it was so, so odious that the stench was so foul that she and colleagues have marched out of the U.S. attorney's office. Her resignation letter suggesting a quid pro quo. Other colleagues have quit main justice. And it's the latest scandal in Donald Trump's embrace of and support for what can only be called an attack on the rule of law and law and order in our country. It's outrageous.

[Jim Acosta]

And Norm, I mean, you know, this is starting to feel like inception a little bit. We're through the looking glass. But I suppose it just seems like a silly notion to ask whether the Justice Department would investigate what the Justice Department has done here, because it seems as though there's some sort of quid pro quo going on. I scratch your back. You scratch my back here to the extent that you have, I mean. And Norm, if you can speak.

[Norm Eisen]

Ms. Sassoon says so. She wrote a long letter laying out that letter. Jim, how extraordinary is that?

[Jim Acosta]

How extra that letter.

[Norm Eisen]

The Department of Justice is supposed to go after crime, not allegedly be involved in it.

[Jim Acosta]

Unreal.

[Norm Eisen]

But you have to take it in context, Jim, and that's why we're so fortunate to have your voice and the strong stand you took for our democracy and for our country. Yeah, You've got to understand. Criminal president, he starts by pardoning 1600 criminals. He attacks law enforcement. This isn't the only rotten decision that's been made. By his defense lawyer. What about the Rod Blagojevich pardon? What was going on there? Why is he, why is his Justice Department issuing a memo that we're not going to be prosecuting foreign corrupt practices, American executives paying bribes, that, that those prosecutions are going to be dialed down. So, you know, you had a man who said he was going to be a dictator on day one. And when people assume dictatorial powers, they don't voluntarily give them up. This is a thing that happens in a dictatorship, not a democracy.

[Jim Acosta]

Well, I'm so glad, I'm so glad you brought that up, Norm, because one of the themes that I've been talking about this week is because people can get caught up in legal, you know, back and forth. And that's, this is about the American way of life. The rule of law must mean something in this country when you're going around and doing these kinds of quid pro quos with Eric Adams. Will, you know, a couple of months ago, before Trump comes into office, he was in legal hot water. Trump comes into office, they have looks like a quid pro quo. All of a sudden, he's going to get off scot free. I mean, that, that, that is that the American system of justice, Rob Blagojevich tries to sell Barack Obama's Senate seat, all of a sudden now he's gonna get pardoned. And you know, as you said, the Trump Department, Trump administration, saying in a memo that we're not going to prosecute foreign corruption. And it just says to me, my goodness, what is happening to the rule of law in this country? If you want to go around the world and look at systems where, you know, the guy who is in charge, you know, his buddies get, get off scot free, they don't have to worry about any legal jeopardy. And the political opponents, they better be worried about the law coming after them. That that's not the system that we have in this country. We just don't want that to happen here.

[Norm Eisen]

When I appeared on one of your very first substack lives, you articulated a principle that actually guides us at the contrary. And it's really become my motto. And it app to this Eric Adams scandal and this corruption scandal and how we have to talk about it and cover it. We have to be truthful, not neutral. So you and I are not the great Christiane Amanpour. I was just on her show talking about the democracy crisis. That's her axiom. We talked about it when I was on last time with you and Jim. There's not really two sides to this presidential crime spree. We should call him Crotus, not potus.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah, that's the thing about it. It's just.

[Norm Eisen]

But there's even more. He also removed the Inspector's General. Almost 20 individuals all over the government who were there to uncover his fraud, waste and abuse as independent inspectors general. He fired him. He broke the law. And how. He fired him. He removed the head of whistleblower protections. When whistleblowers have want to make a report of fraud, waste and abuse. The courts ordered the head of the office of Special Counsel Hap Dellinger reinstated because that was an illegal firing. He threw out the head of the office of Government Ethics, the one who's supposed to say if behavior meets the ethics laws or not. I mean that those are all badges. Read well and don't forget warnings.

[Jim Acosta]

The Justice Department threatening to reveal the identities of the FBI agents who invest.

[Norm Eisen]

That's my case.

[Jim Acosta]

Attacks.

[Norm Eisen]

That's my case.

[Jim Acosta]

Norm, I know you've been working on that. I mean that again, you know this, this notion of we're going to investigate the investigators, that's what they've been talking about in the, in the Trump and Trump world. No, this is about intimidating the investigators. This is about putting a chilling effect on investigations, Correct?

[Norm Eisen]

Yes. And I'll tell you what happened with these, with these FBI agents because it's such a good example. What possible reason the Justice Department required everybody who worked on the January six cases to complete a survey. And you know what, what possible reason could there be for that? There were multiple reports they were planning to dox to reveal the names of these FBI agents who were enforcing the law dealing with the first non peaceful transition in our history. Cases of violently assaulting the police, invading the Capitol. What reason to collect and reveal their names except. Except to expose them to danger. If you saw the horrific threats that are already being made, imagine if those names were put out there. So we've been pushing back on this at State Democracy Defenders Fund where I'm the chair. We went to court, we got an order and we commanded the judge commanded that these names not be revealed. And we're going to be doing more to protect against the attacks on the men and women of the FBI and doj. And this Eric Adams case is just another piece of the puzzle. I think the American people are going to get fed up with it, Jim. I really do. They. This is not America and people like their freedoms in their country. This is like one of those autocracies, authoritarian systems, police station, state and the courts are already fed Up. I've worked on over a dozen cases.

[Jim Acosta]

Well, you have judges left and right going after Trump on birthright citizenship, slowing down. What's happening with USAID and other, other, other agencies that, that the Trump administration has been going after. But at the same time, and I'm going to be talking about this with Ezra Levin with Indivisible in just a moment here, the Democrats just don't have the numbers in Congress. So at this point, it really is, it does come down to the courts. It comes down to the courts and in some of these cases we've seen already, Norm, you have Trump appointed judges ruling against Trump.

[Norm Eisen]

That's right. We've seen judges from multiple Republican administrations, Reagan, Bush, Trump's own nominees rejecting his behavior in case after case after case. Jim, the Trump administration is mounting a no holds barred attack on American law, Constitution, our statutes, our regulations. The courts to their credit, are not putting up with it. Of course you can't. The courts don't turn on by themselves. You have to file cases. And that's why we've worked on these many cases, gotten these court orders, been part of the Code coalition with wonderful partners to put a stop to this illegality, and we're just going to keep going. And I hope you ask my friend Ezra about the many spontaneous demonstrations that are springing up all over the country. A lot has been happening.

[Jim Acosta]

That's right. No semaphore had a story today about, well, maybe the resistance isn't dead after all. And you know, I know, I know, Norm, you have to go in just a few moments. But because Trump really played the legal system like a fiddle when he was up against those criminal charges, does it make you worry that the same thing could happen again with these legal efforts now to hold him to account, to slow him down, to make sure he's not engaging in criminality and doing illegal things, shutting down parts of the government and so on. What do you think.

[Norm Eisen]

He was convicted on those 34 election interference and cover up felonies in Manhattan. He did dodge accountability. He did dodge accountability in the other cases. But here you don't have criminal prosecutions. With that extraordinary proof beyond a reasonable doubt, there's no issue of presidential immunity, which is where the other cases stumbled. Instead, what you have are really blatant violations of the law. And even this Supreme Court, which 63 granted him unfounded immunity. A different 5, 4 majority said the criminal sentencing on his 34 election interference and cover up convictions in Manhattan could proceed. So let's hope we get that 5, 4 majority. And I think we just might on some of these cases.

[Jim Acosta]

Excellent. All right. Well, Norm, keep us posted on all of your efforts. Thanks for your courage. Thanks for your guts. We're going to need a lot of it these days. The great Norm Eisen. Good to talk to you, sir. Thanks so much. I know you got to get going. We'll see you next time.

[Norm Eisen]

Good being with you, Jim. Have a good weekend.

[Jim Acosta]

Thanks, Norm. Really appreciate it. And I am going to go to Ezra Levin in just a few moments with Indivisible. He and others with that organization have been working very hard to stand up some of these demonstrations and protests. And make no mistake, having covered Trump the first time around, the people inside his team and Donald Trump himself pays attention to those demonstrations, pays attention to when people go out and make their voices heard. There's no question about it. I do want to talk to Ezra if I can get him going here. Let's give it a try here. And a lot of other news to tell you about, especially with what's been taking place here in Washington with respect to the way the Trump administration, Elon Musk, they've been going through these departments, cutting just tens of thousands, attempting to cut hundreds of thousands of federal workers. And there's Ezra right there. Ezra, great to see you. Thanks. Program I can hear you just fine. Can you hear me good?

[Ezra Levin]

I can hear you just fine.

[Jim Acosta]

Excellent. Welcome to the show. Great to have you.

[Manuel Oliver]

Great to be here.

[Jim Acosta]

And I don't know if you were listening to Norm just a few moments ago. He was praising you and what you've been doing at your organization.

[Ezra Levin]

Norm's an incredible fighter for democracy. He's been a real ally these last eight years. And look, there is no one I would rather spend Valentine's Day than you. Jim, Great to be here.

[Jim Acosta]

Well, I did say earlier, love is in the air. It's always in the air on this show, maybe not in all quarters of Washington. And I do want to tell the viewers there, Ezra, get them caught up on what's been happening. This according to the New York Times, layoffs cascading through the federal government with an effort to terminate most of an estimated 200,000 workers on probation. A sharp escalation, the time says, in the administration's drive to overhaul and shrink the federal workforce. Among the layoffs reported yesterday was one announced by the Department of Veterans affairs dismissed more than 1,000 employees. And when people say probationary workers, I guess those are folks who have just been working for the federal government a short period of time. What are you seeing right now, Ezra? And what is your organization doing to try to slow some of this down? Because, I mean, I talked to federal workers, I was talking with a couple the other night, and people are just absolutely freaked out. They're worried about whether or not they're gonna have a paycheck next week, where they're going to turn in terms of a job, and they're worried about overall what's going to happen with some of the very important, you know, tasks of our federal government, whether it be usaid, Department of Education, you name it.

[Ezra Levin]

Yeah, look, I wish I could say everything's going to be okay and they shouldn't worry, but I can't say that. I'm not a historian. I'm an organizer. I'm a former congressional staffer. I don't have all the contacts. What I do is listen to the folks who do have that context. Folks like Timothy Snyder, the. The author of On Tyranny, an expert in authoritarianism, who says this is a coup, this is a constitutional crisis. I listen to folks like Heather Cox Richardson, who says this is the greatest threat to the American republic that we've seen, perhaps ever.

[Norm Eisen]

Tough.

[Ezra Levin]

I'm not gonna lie. It's tough right now. And so what we are trying to do is not tell everybody it's going to go be okay, but tell everybody. Donald Trump wants you to think you don't have power. He and Musk and some of the Republicans in Congress, they want you to think that they're all powerful, and everything that they're doing can give you that sense. It's so much the executive orders, the lack of congressional oversight, the implementation of Project 2025. It feels like they're unstoppable. What can you do? And it's so big. It's too big for any one person. It's too big for any one group. I'm here to tell you you're not powerless, that there is something you can do. While it might seem like they control everything, we still live in a democratic republic. That is true. It's not a fully functioning democratic republic. It's not firing on all cylinders, but at the end of the day, it is still based on the consent of the governed. Your elected officials still wake up every morning thinking, how am I going to get reelected? And that's a healthy question. That's not a critique of elected officials. They should think that. And the fact that they wake up thinking that gives not individuals, but groups of people power. It means if you organize in your community, you can actually influence what those Elected officials do. You can actually push back, slow down, in some cases, stop some of the worst of what they're trying to do. And so my goal in this moment is not to sugarcoat things. It's to tell people things are bad. Here's what you can do about it.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. And, Ezra, I mean, a lot of different questions asked based on everything you said there. And I have to say, for folks at home who are watching this and worried and wondering what they can do, it sounds like what you're, you're trying to do, what your group's trying to do is sort of lay out the groundwork and say there are things you can do. You're not powerless. But having said that, the Democrats just don't have the numbers in Congress. They don't have the House, they don't have the Senate, they don't have subpoena power. They can't hold hearings on Elon Musk, for example. I mean, I've been asking this question on my show, and I'm not the only one to ask this, but if a Democratic president was doing this, having some other tech billionaire go through all these federal agencies and so on, there would be hearings. I mean, they would have pitchforks and torches and so on in Washington. And the thing I asked Norm about the problem with the courts, we've seen Trump very successfully. Yes, there was the, the New York case that, that, that didn't go in his favor. But he was very successful in pushing off that January 6th case, very successful in pushing off the classified documents case. So it makes you worry, is he going to do the same thing again with the courts this time around in terms of trying to stop things and slow things down? So is it, is it really, in your view about getting people out on the street, get people mobilize, get people out there shouting from the rooftops, that kind of thing? I mean, is that what's left now at this point?

[Ezra Levin]

Well, let me say a couple things. One, I'm not counting on any institution, any knight running, like riding in on a white horse to save the day. I'm just not counting on that, Courts included. They are saber rattling. Trump and his cronies are saber rattling at the independent judiciary right now. The very concept of the separation of powers, they are undermining. Maybe we get some good wins there. And I actually see Democratic attorney generals across the, across the country getting a lot of injunctions. That's good, that's positive. I like to see that. But at the end of the day, we got to look at what power do we actually have to stall or stop what's going on? And as you mentioned, we are in the minority in the House, we are in the minority in the Senate. They control the presidency. But let's not let our Democratic allies off the hook too soon. Can you imagine a Mitch McConnell in the Senate minority saying, well, I'm in the minority, what do you expect me to do? I've got no power. Nobody can imagine that because Mitch McConnell would never say that. I was a congressional staffer. Back in 2009, Barack Obama had won. We had huge majorities in the House and the Senate. And you know what? The Republicans in the Senate in a minority, much smaller than current Senate Democrats have what they did, they circulated a memo saying, hey, you're three pages on everything we can do procedurally to slow everything down as much as possible. We are going to fight tooth and nail against this, this Barack Obama. We're going to make him a one term president. We're going to make sure that they don't get any of their agenda through. They didn't succeed on everything. Don't get me wrong, it wasn't 100%. We got some good legislation, but they certainly. So yeah, what, what I would recommend to folks is there. While Donald Trump wants you to feel powerless, some congressional Democrats want you to think they have no power. Neither of them is right. Neither of them is right. We shouldn't hold them accountable for things they can't do. But we should understand the power that they have and say, hey, why aren't you doing that? And then we should rally around them when they do it. We should cheer them on. We need a unified opposition party. And if you don't like that we don't yet have a unified opposition party, you should be asking yourself what you're doing to build one.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah, no, those are great points. And you're absolutely right. You made this point before. I'm going to echo it. The Trump people want you to think that this is a runaway freight train, that you can't stop, that it's already out of the station. You just get out of the way, let us do what we're going to do. And you're absolutely right. And what we saw the other night when there was sort of a talkathon like filibuster with the nomination of Russ vote over at omb, I mean obviously they didn't have the numbers that that nominee went through. They can gum up the works, they can throw sand into the gears. And it sounds like that's some of what you're talking about. But as you know, Ezra, there are some in the Democratic Party and I won't name any names who have been recommending a more hands off approach. And I mean, I will name one name. I had James Carville on the show the other day and he was saying pull back a little bit and let Trump just fall on his face. My question is what happens between now and when Trump falls on his face and has a huge scandal that imperils his presidency? I don't know if you can wait for that. We've already had a number of scandals that would imperil any other presidency under normal circumstances. So what is your response to folks in the Democratic Party who are saying, you know what, let's have a bit of a hands off approach, you know, let's not go full resistance here. Your sense of it?

[Ezra Levin]

Yeah, I think that's more or less the strategic approach of the Democrats. For the first two and a half months after the election. The approach was, and we heard this from folks, it was, look, we shouldn't, we shouldn't signal that we're just going to oppose them. We shouldn't oppose every nominee. In fact, here's the strategy. We're going to vote for some of these nominees, not, not the worst ones, but we're going to vote for some of them. And in voting for some of them, we're going to prove we're reasonable and then some Republicans are going to come over to our side and we're going to be able to defeat some of the worst ones. And look, I think we should be humble about our strategic impulses. We should try things, we should see what works and then we should learn from it. And I would ask James Carville, did that strategy work? Did Republicans moderate, did Trump slow down? Did we get any Republicans on any of the nominees that were up for a vote?

[Jim Acosta]

You didn't get anything out of it. You still, we got nothing out of it. You still got RFK Jr. You still got, I mean, you know, it's kind of a Star wars bar cantina Cabinet here. I mean, this is in any other world. It just feels sort of like we're on a different planet in a different dimension when RFK Jr. Is in charge at HHS. I'm sorry, there's just no other way to put it. He is an anti vax extremist who has no business being in charge of the nation's public health. Tulsi Gabbard I mean, in any other presidency you would have had Republic, you would have had 15 Republicans voting against that nomination. And so I tend to think what you're saying strategically makes sense because you're not get. You're, you're meeting them halfway only to get a smack across the face.

[Ezra Levin]

I think there's a. I understand the strategic impulse. Look, you want to, you want to, you want to show that you're reasonable, that you're able to, you're able to work with anybody. And I get that. Here's the thing. These guys aren't normal Republicans. This is not a normal administration. This is so outside the bounds of what is normal, that when you try to demonstrate that you're reasonable, that's not what you're accomplishing. You are actually giving bipartisan cover to the most extremist cabinet that we've ever seen. Why would you do that? And look, most people, most of the time are not paying attention to politics. I hope more people pay attention to you, Jim, but most people we kind of recognize are not paying attention. How do people forget their opinions? For people who aren't watching this 247 and constantly paying attention, they look to the leaders of the parties to say, well, is this a big deal? Do I actually care a lot about this? And one way to tell people and don't worry about it too much is to have 19 Senate Democrats yesterday vote for yet another nominee. Why do that? What? That. The signal that sins is this is business as usual. Don't worry about it. We'll cover it. And so I'm experiencing this cognitive dissonance right now where I'm hearing from a lot of leaders who I think are very smart that this is a constitutional crisis. And then I'm seeing business as usual move forward. And if we want, if we want the people to rise up and push back, which is what we need to do, a popular opposition movement to what's going on, we need leadership to make that happen. To be clear, some are doing it. Some are doing it. And I would say we are better off today than we were two weeks ago. We're just not there yet. I think we'll get there, but we're not there yet.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah, I'm under the impression, and I just a sense that appeasement is just not going to get the job done. And I hate to throw that word around because people say, well, you're accusing me of being an appeaser. Well, my dealings, based on my dealings with the Trump folks, they look at folks who are extending the olive branch, paying respect to the norms and traditions of Washington, showing reverence for the office of the presidency. Of the United States. They really don't give a crap if you do any of those things. They are determined. They have an extreme right wing agenda and they intend on seeing it come to fruition. You can either get on board or get in the way. And if you're not on board, they think of you as being in the way. So to me, there just isn't really. It's sort of like basic math. It's sort of like, I don't know, I hate that term binary choice. It's sort of like a Washington way of talking about things. But that's kind of what it is. You're either just going to kind of roll over. You're not.

[Ezra Levin]

This guy's not Reagan, okay? This isn't just somebody from the other party who you might not agree with, but you can figure out some way to work with them. These folks respect strength. They respect votes. They do not respect your goodwill. That's not how we're going to win. The way we're going to win is to show them we've got the numbers. Look, Project 2025 pulled at 4%. 4%. I have never seen a issue of any sort pull at 4%. My God. And these folks are acting like because they got people who were concerned about the price of bread and price of eggs that now they have a man to implement one of the least popular policy agendas in the country. They are vastly overreaching. And this is not just an issue with Kamala Harris voters. It's not even just an issue with non voters. It's an issue with Trump voters. Trump voters are feeling betrayed. Trump voters are feeling disappointed.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah.

[Ezra Levin]

This is not the folks who are in the streets who are going, next week is congressional recess. There are going to be town halls all across the country. There are going to be protests all over the country on Monday on President's Day. The folks who are coming out are not just people who went to Kamala Harris rallies. The people who are disappointed now represent a broad swath. Ideologically moderates, moderate Republicans, Independents and Democrats who are saying, what the heck is going on? This guy is not elected to do this.

[Jim Acosta]

Well, and I'll tell you, Ezra, that to me, it doesn't matter if you're a progressive, if you're a centrist or you're a conservative. The prospect of Elon Musk and somebody who is 19 years old who calls himself Big Balls or whatever his name is, the prospect of people like that sweeping through the federal government, going through the Treasury Department, having access to your data that to me, you could almost make the case. I think you can make the case that a conservative Republican who has the National Review on their coffee table every day would be so outraged and pissed over something like that if a Democrat were doing it. Sweeping unelected, unappointed tech bros. Going into the federal government and vacuuming up your data. That to me is. That would piss off anybody in any Freedom Caucus in any normal world that you and I live in. But it's unbelievable how that is not getting them pissed off right now. And I think that almost more than anything, when these congressional town halls start happening, if you have any members who are out there who are gutsy enough to have a town hall with people present, that's something that they're going to get an ear for a while.

[Ezra Levin]

I guarantee you they absolutely will. This isn't particularly ideological. It's about do we have a representative democracy or not? Do we believe in separate. Do we believe in Article 1 of the of the Constitution? That's what this is about. And we talked about the secretary votes earlier. The one close vote that we had was Pete Hexseth. It was for defense secretary. So 5050 JD Vance had to break the tie. And we have reporting on what happened there. Why did Thom Tillis, this key, arguably the most vulnerable senator on the Republican side up for reelection next year? Why did he vote for Pete Hexit, this clearly unqualified nominee? And the answer is Trump threatened him with a primary challenge. Trump said, well, if you were gonna break with me on this, I'm gonna end your political career. Now. That's politics. That's how it works. Now the question is when a Susan Collins or a Thom Tillis or a Dan Sullivan is making political calculations, how much are they factoring in the anger from constituents who are not Donald J. Trump, the anger from folks who are not MAGA supporters, are they factoring in the disappointment and anger and sense of betrayal of their own constituents? Other folks in North Carolina, in Alaska, in Maine, we've got to build that sense. I can't guarantee you that we're going to be able to pull them over to our side, but I can guarantee it for folks who are up for reelection next year, we can directly impact their reputation and their ability to stay in power. That's what we can do in this moment. But it's going to come down to not what should ex leader of the Democratic Party do? Why are they fixing all this? Going to come down to us? What are we doing? How are we spending our weekends? How are we spending our evenings. How are we organizing our own community? Don't look for somebody else. They're not going to save the day. It's up to us.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. Ezra, great to talk to you. Thank you so much. And what you're saying, I think people are just saying, yeah, inject that right into my veins because I think there's been a political misreading of the moment inside. And folks may get a little antsy when I say this. Inside the Democratic Party and perhaps among some of the establishment folks in the Democratic Party, some folks, I think, put their finger in the wind and they said, okay, maybe we need to go along with Trump a little bit. Look at this victory that he had, and so on. And that's going to be our best approach moving forward. And the people are rising up and saying, no, you got that wrong. We don't like this guy. He comes into office, the first thing he does is he pardons all these January 6th folks, and then he lets Elon Musk off the leash and he goes running through the federal government. And now you have this situation at the Justice Department in the Eric Adams case. It's one outrage after another. And I think folks might want to just, you know, take the finger out of the wind and start thinking that maybe there. There might be a different calculus in all of this. Ezra, great to talk to you. Thanks a lot. Let's do it again soon.

[Ezra Levin]

I hope so. Happy Valentine's Day.

[Manuel Oliver]

Gum.

[Jim Acosta]

All right, you too. All right, thanks. Take care. I sort of feel like Ezra and I could have talked all day long and I didn't want to do that to him. He kept matching. It's Valentine's Day. He must have a date to go to, so I'll let him get on his way. About that, I am going to bring in, in just a few moments, very special guest. A little bit of a bonus on this Friday. I was out yesterday taking care of my dad. My dad had an elf issue, so forgive me for not being here yesterday, but, you know, family comes first. Had to get my dad to the doctor, and he's doing much better now. But in a few moments, speaking of dads, a very special father out there, Manuel Oliver, is going to join me in just a few moments. Manuel Oliver, or Manny, is the father of Joaquin Oliver, who died in the parkland shooting seven years ago today on this Valentine's Day man, he's a great man. He has shown so, so much love for his son over the years. And right now, he is the star of a one man show. Here in Washington called Guac, which is named after his son. That's his son's nickname. And we're going to talk to Manuel in just a moment. I do want to run through a couple of headlines because Ezra did mention Pete Hegseth, Politico reporting that the chair of the Senate Armed Services Committee, Senator Roger Wicker, said Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth made a, quote, rookie mistake when he said a return to Ukraine's pre war borders was unrealistic. Politico says Hegseth has walked back some of the comments that he made about Ukraine earlier this week at a NATO meeting in Brussels where he threw cold water on the idea that Ukraine could have full membership in NATO and suggested that the country was not going to reclaim its internationally recognized borders. Those comments, of course, drew widespread bipartisan criticism. Meanwhile, also I want to mention this because it's very important. Politico also reporting, Vice President J.D. vance launched a blistering attack on European governments in a speech at the Munich Security Conference. Reuters says Vance also showed his support for the German far right AfD party as an eligible political partner in remarks that Berlin did not take too kindly to. Reuters also points out Elon Musk, the biggest donor to Trump's election effort, has publicly backed the anti immigration AfD party in Germany. And the Washington Post says JD Vance met with the leader of the AfD party earlier in the day. So I want to make sure you get the international headlines here because, you know, all of this is tied together, folks. The anti immigration rhetoric that you saw Trump try to parlay to victory during the 2024 campaign, that is playing out in many other countries around the world and it's playing out in Germany right now. They have elections coming up. And there are folks in Berlin who are very worried that this very far right anti immigration AFD party is going to gain a foothold in terms of power in Germany. That obviously could have major repercussions. And if you have Elon Musk backing this movement in Germany, if you have J.D. vance, the Vice president of the United States, ladies and gentlemen, backing that kind of movement in Germany, folks, you know, Katie, bar the door, as folks used to say in other times. Let's go ahead and get Manny on here. The great Manuel Oliver. He's such a great guy. I'm going to do my best. Again, as I said earlier this week, sometimes never a good idea to let the correspondent touch the equipment. But we're going to get him. Get Manny on the line here. I'm going to him a little A few minutes later than I said I would. But I was hoping a few extra minutes would get him ready to go. And if you've not heard, I've interviewed Manny several times. And there's Manny right there. Hey, Manny. Great to see you.

[Manuel Oliver]

How are you, buddy? Great to see you, too.

[Jim Acosta]

I'm doing great. Hey, thanks for coming on the show. You can see right now lots of hearts heading into your direction right now. And that's always happening when Manny is up on stage in this production that I saw the other night, Manny. And it was absolutely incredible. I told you, it was just one of the most moving experiences that I've ever witnessed. And my hat's off to you. I want to talk to you about it in just a moment, But I want to make sure the folks at home understand what's happening. This is the seventh anniversary of the Parkland school shooting, Valentine's Day, 2018. That was the day that a gunman shot and killed 17 people at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida. And just to recap what I was saying earlier, Manuel Oliver lost his son Joaquin in that shooting. Since then, Manny, you've made it your mission to keep Joaquin's memory alive. You've been arrested, hanging a banner of your son atop a construction crane by the White House. And of course, this week, you have this one man show called Guac, which really incorporates the audience, too. In many ways, it's a one man show, but it brings in the audience as well, which I found so special about it. And so, Manny, thanks for coming on. Tell me about the show and just tell us about it. Why did you do this? And what are you hoping that the audience takes away from it? To me, it was like I felt like I knew your son after seeing the show.

[Manuel Oliver]

Well, that's the best answer that explains why we do this. You know that we have been trying many different things to approach the issue of gun violence. And they're all. Most of them are related to art and expression. And so we found theater as a very powerful tool. We started testing it, like, a couple of years ago, and now we are in what I will call an official theater play here in the. At the woolly mammoth in D.C. the reaction, the response from the. From the audience is great. It's been an almost every single night, we have between 250, 200 people listening to a message directly from Joaquin. So you know what? I feel that today is just another day for us to get out there and fight. Patricia and me. We're going to do today, the same thing that we were doing yesterday will be the same thing that we will do tomorrow.

[Jim Acosta]

And, Manny, when I watched the show, there was a moment, and I don't want to give it all away. If folks want to read my. I wrote a substack about this the other day. You can read more about the show on my substack. There are beautiful pictures there. I didn't realize you were such an artist, and I've interviewed you several times. But this beautiful illustration of your son that you paint over time throughout the play, to me, it's just. It's an illustration of your love for your son. And that's the way I described it in my substack. It was the love for your son taking the stage. And I just. On a Valentine's Day like today. And I know Valentine's Day will never be the same for you. Can you talk about that? You know how this just. This is about love.

[Manuel Oliver]

Yeah. So the whole concept behind the play, it's showing Joaquin's life. You know, we. We. We got to a conclusion that we. We prefer Joaquin be remembered in any other way than just a victim from a shooting. And then you have 17 wonderful years of funny moments and great moments and beautiful things and dialogues and conversations. It's either that or just talk about that day and what happened that day. So we went with option number one. And that's how the play that you might be thinking, because you're at the very beginning, if you don't know what's the play it's about, you might be thinking that it's about gun violence prevention, but it touches gun violence prevention a lot. But it's about Joaquin. It's about a beautiful kid that was. We were lucky enough, Patricia and me. We were so lucky to have him for 17 years. And now we are. We became his voice. So we have to do. It's not that we have other options. We have to do what we do.

[Jim Acosta]

And what. What's next? I know you're going to continue to take this show to other cities. You're going to continue to fight for change. I mean, one of the things that you fought for was a gun violence prevention office in the White House. Trump came into office and he got rid of it. Am I right? And so what. It almost seems like your movement, the movement shared by others, people who've been affected and touched by mass gun violence, that movement is now running into another roadblock again. How do you deal with that?

[Manuel Oliver]

Well, so I'm going to give you my personal opinion of that, yes, we were able to open an office in the White House, and now the office is out. It took a week for Trump to get rid of the office. Does that mean that we're going to fight to reopen the office again? Not me. You know, I don't. I refuse to fight for the same things. I think that's a strategy. They try to put you back in the same spot that you were before, and that way you don't fight for other things. So that's past. We had the office. If we reopen it, great. But there's a lot of things that we haven't tried yet. So let's. In other words, more people. We're not the only ones working on this. So we have more people working on that specific area of reopening the office or bringing the office to another place, which was what I think the best option, just reopening the office. Not in the White House, but by the main organizations that are behind the gun violence prevention movement. And then people like me, like Patricia, we keep on doing what we do.

[Jim Acosta]

We.

[Manuel Oliver]

You saw right next to the play, in that same venue, an amazing exhibit that talks about gun violence prevention in a different way. I want people to see gun violence in other ways, to be able to go into a museum and experience actually some kind of immerse themselves into what happened to Joaquin. Make it a little more. Same way that the culture has been normalizing. Yeah. Make it real. Let's have it everywhere. Let's get people to start talking about this, because otherwise we're going to find this political game again and again and again. We're going to approve things, get things done, and then get things undone.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. And, Manny, I mean, you're so right. The production, the play, what you do is incredible. But outside of the play, there is this display that goes through some of the horrific tragedies that have happened around this country. The whole tragedy that mass gun violence is and how it's been inflicted on our children, what we call the lockdown generation and so on. And there was one piece of that exhibition that was outside the theater that you talked about during the play. And it struck me when I was there, and it was sort of like a statue of a little girl under her desk during one of these drills. And I believe you were saying that when it was first introduced into the exhibition, gun violence for children was the third leading cause of death for children in this country. Is that right? And then somebody came up to you and said, no, no, it's now the leading cause. Can you Talk about that a little bit.

[Manuel Oliver]

So that's in a sculpture that we did. Sculpture, like, five years ago with the. With the help and partnership of Giffords. And then the sculpture is this. This little desk, school desk, and has some messages on top of it. One of the messages was exactly what you said. Guns are the third cause of death for our kids in our country. That was the reality when we did the sculpture. So someone came to me, said, hey, this is wrong. It's actually the first. That situation is bizarre. Like, the fact that this is moving so fast and we're not doing anything to prevent. Really. I was impacted, and I'm not easy to be impacted. But that thing that. Oh, my God. So. So now we're gonna. We're gonna, of course, fix this culture. But the whole story by itself is just, why is that happening? And.

[Ezra Levin]

And.

[Jim Acosta]

And why is it happening?

[Manuel Oliver]

And no one, in my opinion, the whole society is just letting this. We're letting this happen. We're normalizing this too much. So. And if we want to normalize it, then I will make sure that we normalize it to a place where everyone should talk about this.

[Jim Acosta]

This should never be normalized. This is not normal. It is not normal for our children to suffer like this, and it is not normal for children to go to school worried about, are they going to have to be in a mass shooting? And it's not normal for our kids to go to school and have to do shooter drills. That is not normal. And I don't understand why people don't get that. That should not be happening in this country, period, full stop. It does not happen in other major countries around the world, and it should not happen here. And the other thing that touched me about it, Manny, and for the longest time, I thought maybe you were Cuban like me, but you're Venezuelan, and I told you that you remind me of one of my Cuban cousins. But, you know, your family came to this country in pursuit of a better life. You're immigrants and.

[Ezra Levin]

Correct.

[Jim Acosta]

Instead of finding that better life, you found tragedy. Because, yes, this is a. I believe this is a great country. And. And. And I know that folks are struggling with that right now. And what makes it great is that we can all work together to try to make it better. And I know that sounds a little. I don't know, naive perhaps, in the current climate right now, but it pains me, Manny, that your family came here and then this happened, and I wanted to express that to you. It pains me. It hurts. Are you there? No. Manny. Did I lose you? Yeah.

[Manuel Oliver]

It's not that. We came for a better life.

[Norm Eisen]

Yeah.

[Manuel Oliver]

Yeah, I'm here. Can you hear me?

[Jim Acosta]

I got you. Yeah.

[Manuel Oliver]

I'm right here. Can you hear me now?

[Jim Acosta]

I got you now. Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead.

[Manuel Oliver]

Yeah.

[Jim Acosta]

Go ahead, buddy.

[Manuel Oliver]

Okay.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. So.

[Manuel Oliver]

Okay, so it's not that we came here for a better life, is that we came here for a better future. The actual life was not the important thing. So everything was about the kids. Everything was about Joaquin and how he could be safer, you know, safer and better future for him. And now we find ourselves in this situation. So we're not going anywhere. We're going to stay here. We're going to keep on fighting. We have more kids to protect, and. And. And this is not over. We're gonna. We're gonna be here. That I can promise.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah.

[Manuel Oliver]

We're not going anywhere.

[Jim Acosta]

I know. Manny. Well, Manny, thank you very much for your time. I appreciate it. We all appreciate it. I hope you can see in the substack feed one of the beautiful things about it. And you should continue to do this. You should do this yourself because it's a great outlet to get the word out, all these hearts flowing in your direction. I hope you know that there are people who love you dearly and love your family dearly. Your wife, Patricia, is an amazing woman. The love that you express on stage, just know that it. It just penetrated me and it penetrated all the other people in the audience. And just know on this day, there are so many people thinking about you and thinking about your family and. And. And. And believe in what you believe in, that our children deserve better than this. Thank you, Manny. It's good to talk to you.

[Manuel Oliver]

Thank you, Dean. You take care, okay?

[Jim Acosta]

Okay, you too. I appreciate it.

[Manuel Oliver]

See you around. Thank you.

[Jim Acosta]

All right. Sounds good. Thank you. We're having a little bit of a. A drag there with Manny's live shot, and I just. I get a little. I get a little worked up. I've talked to Fred Gutenberg over the years. Excuse me. That's. I swear, when I see Manny, I see one of my. One of my relatives, and it's just. It's just a goddamn shame in this country that we subject our children to this goddamn shame. And we just shouldn't. We should not let this continue. We should not let this continue to happen in this country. And I hope that over this weekend, over this Valentine's Day weekend, that folks just take a moment and think about the folks at Parkland, think about all the other communities that have been shattered because of this shameful situation that we have in this country. It is the shame of our nation that we allow our children to be subjected to this, that we allow communities to be subjected to this, that our schools are put through hell on earth. No, no child should go to school and have to do a lockdown drill and do an active shooter drill. Enough. Enough of this. So my thanks to Manny for doing that. I appreciate it. I've gone a little longer today. I did want to mention finally, because this one has me upset, too, and it's Valentine's Day. I kind of wanted to end on a higher note and I don't think I can do that. But I do want to say that what's happening over the White House over these last several days with the presses, I'm sorry, that is intolerable as well. The Hill reports the White House says it will limit the Associated Press journalists access to the Oval Office in Air Force One, an escalation of the conflict between the Trump administration. The wire service this week, one of the press people at the White House said this, the associate, this is the reason why, in case you missed shows earlier this week, this is the reason why the Associated Press has been blocked from going into the Oval Office in Air Force One. This is according to White House Deputy Chief of Staff Taylor Buddowicz. I don't know how to say his name, but anyway, he works in the press office. He said this, quote, the Associated Press continues to ignore the lawful geographic name change of the Gulf of America. And I, you know, I just, again, and maybe I wasn't to the point enough earlier this week, this Gulf of America thing. And I, I said this earlier this week, I love America. This is not about that. Changing the name of the Gulf of Mexico to the Gulf of America is stupid. It is stupid. And they just need to stop. They just need to stop. If you're going to, if you want to go out there and say, listen, hey, let's talk about this, let's talk about this as an issue and so on, I guess that you're right. That's completely fine. But to block the Associated Press from covering aspects of the administration, whether it be access to the Oval Office or access to Air Force One, because they refuse to call the Gulf of Mexico, the Gulf of America, it's just stupid. It's just stupid. And I, you know, I wish, I guess there's just no other way around this. This is how they're going to play with the press. As I told the Washington Post, the Washington Post called me about this and I said, this is a test case. They're going to continue to do this. If the press does not report on things the way they want things reported, they're going to go after people. I mean, they did, they did this to me during the first Trump administration, didn't like the questions that I asked at a press conference, took my press pass away. We had to go to court to get it back. And I suspect that you're going to see more of this to come. But again, it is the Gulf of Mexico. It is not the Gulf of America. And you can, you can pressure Google into changing it on their on, on Google search, and you can pressure certain outlets to call it this, and maybe you'll get away with it, but we're just not going to surrender ourselves to this kind of nonsense. And this is what I was talking about at the very beginning of this substack program. We're not going to give into the lies. We're not going to give into the fear. And I hope my friends in the press, and I call them my friends for good reason, many of them are very good friends of mine. I hope this is a moment where the press stands. Strong need to get behind the Associated Press. I don't know if they sell them online, but I'm going to get myself an Associated Press T shirt. I've been a journalist for, gosh, 30 years, and I can't tell you how many times I've relied on the Associated Press. The people at the ap, they're wonderful journalists and how important they are as members of a free society here in the United States. They just do a tremendous job. They have so many talented journalists in so many different parts of the country. It is one of the things that holds us together, quite honestly, from an information standpoint, is the Associated pressure when talking about National Public Radio, public Broadcasting. The Associated Press is one of those institutions. And to see an institution like that punished because they won't say something as dumb as the Gulf of America again. I have George Washington right there. Statue of Liberty right here. Patriotism, love of America has nothing to do with it. Calling it the Gulf of America is dumb. And punishing the Associated Press for refusing to go along with that is also dumb. All right. That's all the time I have for this Valentine's Day edition of the Jim Acosta Show. As I, as I was saying at the beginning of the program, love is in the air on the Jim Acosta show. And I hope you can feel that love. I hope you can feel the love that we heard from Manny Oliver. He was terrific. Go see his show if it comes to your community. My thanks also to Norm Eisen and Ezra Levin over at Indivisible. All great guests today. Hope you enjoyed it. Have a great weekend, everybody, and happy Valentine's Day. Still reporting from Washington, I'm Jim Acosta. Take care.