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The Jim Acosta Show
Olivia Troye slams Trump's Ukraine policy as killing innocent people and Rep. Jake Auchincloss (D-MA) talks about how Democrats need to drill down on economic issues.
01:04:25
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- [00:00]
Jim Acosta
Joining in, welcome to the Jim Acosta Show. It's Friday. Thank goodness, it's Friday. Tgif, as you can see on screen. With me is Olivia Troy, former Trump administration official, national security advisor to Mike Pence. And we're going to talk. The reason why I wanted to bring Olivia on is for a lot of reasons, honestly. But one of the things that I've been thinking about is this measles outbreak out in Texas, because I know, Olivia, you worked with the COVID Task Force response. I do want to talk about that in just a moment. But I mean, another thing that you can relate to is being a federal worker who is feeling under siege. And that is what is going on in the nation's capital right now. It's happening with a lot of federal workers all over the country. And it's also concerning people who rely on federal benefits. I mean, all of those things seem to be under the gun right now. And I've been calling this, and perhaps you've seen this and the audience knows this. I've been calling this basically what the Musk that's been sort of the subheading for all of these things. But the reason why I bring this up is, you know, just today the Associated Press is reporting that Elon Musk is telling Republican lawmakers that he is not to blame for the firings of thousands of federal workers, including veterans, as he pushes to downsize the government. Instead, he said in private talks this week that those decisions are left to the various federal agencies. That's going to come as a surprise to a lot of Americans who watched Trump's speech the other night. And Trump said in front of the entire world that Elon Musk was the head of doge. And of course, there were all those comments that were made after he said that, because in court and in other places, they've made these representations that Elon Musk is technically not in charge of doge. And then apparently Donald Trump told his Cabinet secretaries during a meeting yesterday that staffing decisions will be left up to them, not Elon Musk and the Department of Government Efficiency. But tell that to the people. And I'm going to try to get this agency name right. Tell that to the people at the US African Development Foundation. This according to the Washington Post, employees of the US Doge Service successfully gained access to the US African Development Foundation. Why am I talking about this? Because apparently Peter Morocco, director of the State Department's Office of Foreign Assistance and acting deputy administrator of the U.S. agency for International Development, he arrived with five U.S. marshals and a handful of DOGE employees to gain access to this agency after some of those folks were turned away the other day. So they're now using US Marshals to gain access to some of these agencies, Olivia. And some of the officials there at USADF told the Washington Post that they described what they thought was a frantic and, quote, traumatizing scene. And so it's been a while since you and I have spoken, Olivia. What have been your thoughts watching this unfold? This Doge sort of Elon Musk has lifted up the chainsaw himself. This sort of chainsaw effect on the federal workforce. What have you been thinking?
- [03:01]
Olivia Troy
Yeah, look, I was appalled when I saw that they were bringing federal marshals. It just reminds me of Trump's use of federal law enforcement and his view of the military and the law enforcement as his own pawns for his use. And that is really an inappropriate use of federal law enforcement like that. And I can only imagine the intimidation that people felt in the building. Imagine doing absolutely nothing wrong. Imagine just going about your day, doing your job, doing the mission that they're set out to do, right. Of that small agency. And then the next thing you know, you're being told by your colleagues, hey, there's marshals showing up to the building, and you have no idea what's about. What's about to happen. And I read, you know, I read in that there the Post article where they were using a back stairwell because the elevators weren't working. I mean, can you imagine the terror of that? And so it sounds like a raid or something used against government people. And that is the bottom line. That should be the headline here. And that screams of other countries that are failing democracies. Right. That's what is really, really awful about all this.
- [04:08]
Jim Acosta
You're absolutely. It sounds like government on government violence or something along those lines. And I mean, it is scary to think about all of that, but also at the same time, that flies in the face of what they've been trying to do, this clean, mild Doge over the last couple of days, where Trump goes out there during the speech to Congress and says, elon Musk is in charge of Doge. And then Elon Musk goes up to Capitol Hill, tells Republican lawmakers, I'm not the one to blame for all of this. And Donald Trump tells his Cabinet secretaries, you're the ones who are in charge of firing the federal workers. What does that tell you, Olivia? That they're all over the place on this. It says to me that it's like, who's on first, what's on second. You know, there's a Kingston Cops quality to this.
- [04:51]
Olivia Troy
Yes, absolutely. And I think it's dysfunctional as all heck. And these are the people running our federal government in our country right now. And that is what is the most disturbing thing about the entire thing is. I mean, it's a game of hot potato right now. It's basically like, let's pass the buck and the blame to each other and keep confusing people. I think that's also part of their strategy and game. And, you know, I think Elon Musk is also watching his stock and trying to figure out what's going on with Tesla and all of these things and how does that get impacted. Right. And then you. But then they also realize, oh, we've got these lawsuits and so we can't. Oh, shoot. We just kind of like stepped in it because we're sending mixed signals here. So how are we going to defend this in court? And so. But I think this is all part of the way they kind of function. It's like they, they have no coordination. It's complete chaos. And now you've actually got a bunch of stooges sitting at the table, too, that are just going along with it that aren't going to put their foot down. So I'm interested to see the fallout of that meeting that just took place, apparently, where it was like, you know, there was a lot of tension in the room by the heads of agencies who are like, who's in charge? I'm in charge. And, you know, Elon Musk is like, no, I'm in charge. And so. But look, I think Trump is about money. I think he's found an alliance in Elon Musk. And so I think, you know, he is going to try to walk a fine line here, but I don't see Elon Musk going anywhere anytime soon.
- [06:12]
Jim Acosta
Yeah, it's interesting. It's almost as though Trump has now finally sensed and, you know, sometimes he's just not the smartest guy in the world, but, you know, he's finally, finally gotten the sense that Elon Musk may not be popular with the American people. You know, when, you know, people are egging Teslas and lighting them on fire, which I do not encourage. I do not want anybody to do that. Please do not do that. There are some people who are putting, you know, no Elon Musk bumper stickers on their Teslas and so on. I mean, you know, I think it has dawned on Donald Trump that perhaps he's put the Wrong person in charge of Doge. But to your point, you know, there are things that matter more to him, and maybe Elon Musk brings those things to the table. And at the same time, I mean, he did kind of help get Donald Trump elected. I mean, in a big way.
- [07:03]
Olivia Troy
No doubt. No doubt.
- [07:04]
Jim Acosta
250 million reasons Donald Trump is grateful to Elon Musk.
- [07:08]
Olivia Troy
Yeah, I mean, I would say that Musk owns Trump, let's be honest. And I think we're seeing that kind of play out here. And so now you've got a cabinet that's in place now. Right. And they're trying to figure out, like, their authority, but I don't know how they're going to overcome the Musk obstacle, because I think he is going to be the constant in the room, unfortunately.
- [07:28]
Jim Acosta
Yeah. And, you know, there was this, that moment a couple of weeks ago in the Oval Office where, you know, Elon Musk was in the Oval Office and people were making a big deal out of that. And it was rather striking to see him sort of standing over him. But there's been sort of this, this dance back and forth over who's in charge. And, you know, it just seems this week Donald Trump is trying to say he's. He's back in charge again. I'm just not buying it. You know, especially when you're seeing Doge sending the US Marshals over to this very small, you know, agency, the, the, the US African Development Foundation. You know, it sounds like a bunch.
- [08:10]
Olivia Troy
Of thugs who are looking for unauthorized access. Right. And here's the worst part. They're so disorganized that I saw that the spokesperson for the Trump Admin, I think, made a comment about bureaucrats that are running or whatever. And I'm like, hey, the guy on the board, he's a pretty conservative Republican. So you actually have no idea who the hell is actually working in these agencies that just completely screams incompetence on your part.
- [08:33]
Jim Acosta
Yeah, they, they don't know. And I mean, and, you know, speaking of incompetence, I mean, let's talk about the measles outbreak in Texas, because one of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you today is you were involved in the COVID task force response. You saw that up close and personal. You saw some of the dysfunction going on there. You saw the clash between the scientists and the politicals and the hyper politicals. People like Peter Navarro, obviously, Donald Trump, people like Steve Bannon, who still had influence over what was going on inside the administration. I mean, this is what NBC is reporting the measles outbreak in West Texas has soared to 198 cases. We're at 200 cases of something that was supposed to have been eradicated in West Texas. 30 cases have been reported in New Mexico, 23 people have been hospitalized, mostly unvaccinated children. Olivia? I mean, that's the scary, that's the sad thing about this, and this is what reminds me of COVID again, is like vulnerable people being hurt. I mean, I guess if you're an adult and you want to be unvaccinated and you're going to wear a T shirt about it and all those sorts of things and you get sick, that's the. But when your kids get sick like this because you're just an anti vax person, it just is such a crying shame. And there's been this whole, you know, incompetence and sort of hyper political, I don't know, BS coming from people like RFK Jr. The new HHS secretary who's been talking about, well, you can use vitamin A and you can use cod oil and things like what kind of memories are these bringing back to you when you hear about this measles outbreak and how RFK Secretary Kennedy, I should say, has been handling this?
- [10:20]
Olivia Troy
Yeah, I have been watching this very closely because it's certainly bringing back a lot of trauma is the best way to put it of watching this unfold. And I'm afraid that history is repeating itself in this moment where you're having a bunch of people in the Trump admin right now that are going to be downplaying this and also just spreading just falsehoods that hurt Americans. Right. That is what happened in 2020. And it was painful every single day to watch the politicals sort of override the decisions by the doctors on the task force and the constant tension there. And really, ultimately what it does is it hurts Americans. It hurts the people in our country that are being impacted and are, you know, and then, and then we lose people. It costs lives. And so as I saw this sort of develop, first of all, I have to tell you, like West Texas, I mean, I don't live there currently. It is my home. It is where I grew up. And it's bringing back bad memories of what happened in El Paso, my hometown, during COVID That was one of the hardest hit places. And it's heartbreaking to see that region being impacted again. And I'm worried about what this looks like going forward. Especially, you know, I'm seeing some of these people advertise the Cod oil. They're talking about taking the vitamin A. It's like, here we go again, right? The. What is this? It's ivermectin 2.0. Is it hydroxychloroquine? At what point is RFK Jr going to start hoarding, I guess, vitamin A from the world, like Peter Navarro did the first time around? I mean, and it doesn't, you know, vitamin A does not prevent you from getting measles.
- [11:57]
Jim Acosta
Exactly.
- [11:57]
Olivia Troy
That is the bottom line. And so, and I think it's just, you know, I think you're going to continue to see this. And as it, hopefully it doesn't continue to increase in the number of cases and continue to spread, which it looks like it is, what is unfortunate is that instead of having someone at the helm in leadership that is doing everything they can, and he can, RFK Jr. And Trump to help protect Americans right now in this moment, before it gets worse, they're actually playing into it and they're going to lead us to this moment where it could possibly get that much worse. And so that is what is so frustrating to me right now to watch, is just thinking about the doctors and thinking about how they must be feeling right now, especially in the region where they're having to counter this mis and disinformation that's being pushed out by people at the helm of the federal government while they're trying to educate their local population and trying to navigate this. And it's exactly what happened with COVID And so my advice to people is like, trust the people in your communities. Listen to your doctors. Right. Those are the people that you know. And it's hard because we have an anti vaxxer running the department right now as a response. And so he has played a big role in the past number of decades to play into this moment. And now we're seeing it come to fruition. And that is what is really disturbing to me right now.
- [13:24]
Jim Acosta
Yeah, he has been part of this anti vax movement. He tried to distance himself from it during the confirmation process. Nobody was buying that. And we should point out, because as you were saying a few moments ago, the only way to prevent measles is to get vaccinated. That's what the health experts are saying. And there may be some treatment benefit to certain people who get the measles by taking vitamin A and that sort of a thing, but that's not the same thing as if you take vitamin A, you won't get the measles. That is junk science. And that is what the scientists have been trying to say, and I will say this to Olivia. Earlier today, I was down on the National Mall because I had heard there was going to be this protest taking place. Some of the scientists who have been laid off, some of the scientists who've been pushed out of their jobs at places like NOAA and the NIH and some of the other. They held a rally down on the National Mall in front of the Lincoln Memorial. I'm going to talk about it a little bit later on the program, but the former head of the NIH, Dr. Francis Collins, was down there, you know, telling people, you know, we need to have faith in science. You know, that science and, you know, the science that is done by the government is very much of the people, by the people and for the people. I'm going to talk about that towards the end of the program. But going back to your experience on Covid, Olivia, One of the things that I remember from the very beginning of the pandemic is Initially, you know, Dr. Fauci, Dr. Birx, they were having an impact. They were having an impact on some of the, you know, you know, things that were being put into place. Locking down the country temporarily, you know, developing the vaccine through operation warp speed, social distancing, you know, eventually wearing masks. Dr. Fauci, you know, initially there were some mixed messaging on masks and they got on board with masks, but it seemed to be a little more science led. And then what happened was Trump, you know, started to basically work against that and started to say things like liberate Michigan, liberate Virginia, liberate Minnesota. I can't remember the exact states. And we're not even doing, we're not even starting on some of the science at this point. We're just, it's just going right into the, the political stuff and the anti vax junk science stuff. And I, I mean, if a measles outbreak like the one that we're seeing in Texas right now gets even worse, I mean, it just makes me really worried about what's coming.
- [15:50]
Olivia Troy
Yeah. You mentioned Dr. Collins. He was in these task force meetings at times, and so I have tremendous respect for him and I'm sure that he is watching this nightmare play out and very concerned about it. And I'll also say this. I think it's one coordinated effort. That's why they purged these scientists. That's why they purged these experts in the field. That's why they did it, because they didn't want the pushback, because they learned that from the first time around. Because they learned that there were people on the task force. They learned that there were people like me who were going to eventually go and blow the whistle and say, we are killing people. And so I think those are the lessons they learned from the first Trump administration. And now they've paved the way to do whatever they want in terms of the messaging and the terms of distorting the narrative. And so right now, you're absolutely correct. I think. You know what, this is a very dangerous thing to have in our federal government. First of all, I would reiterate that, that this is not what responsible leadership and response looks like. And that is what is really terrible about this. Right. I mean, they've, I can guarantee who that office. And I think I actually read that it was gone. I mean, there's no one. Are they actually having meetings at the National Security Council about this right now? Do they even care?
- [17:05]
Jim Acosta
They should factual.
- [17:07]
Olivia Troy
Like is there an office being established right now on how they're going to navigate this? Or is it just a bunch of conspiracy people sitting in an office with RFK Jr. And they're just going to downplay and ignore it? And my fear is it's looking that way.
- [17:23]
Jim Acosta
And it sounds as though the RFK junior Effect is happening on public health. I mean, here's another headline I'll throw at you. The U.S. centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the CDC, is planning a large study, this is according to Reuters, into potential connections between vaccines and autism. Two sources familiar with the matter told Reuters, despite extensive scientific research that has disproven or failed to find evidence of such links. So, I mean, this is like at the, this is the genesis of the anti vax, of much of the anti vax movement in this country. This, this bogus link, it's been, it's been found time and again. There is no link between vaccine, vaccines and autism. And it sounds as though, because RFK Jr. Is at the helm of HHS, that the CDC is going to go ahead and waste time and money trying to figure out if RFK Jr. S cockamamie ideas are right. Yeah.
- [18:13]
Olivia Troy
Instead of actually focusing on other cures or other research efforts that actually could prevent future lives from being lost or other diseases. And yeah, I think it's 100% what's happening here. And again, where are the responsible adults in the room right now on this effort? And that is what is concerning. Whereas that's what's missing, this private partnerships there right now. Yeah, I mean, I remember when Dr. Brooks, you know, she got a lot of criticism and I There's pros and cons. I get that there's a lot of debate about her. But I will tell you that I had a conversation with her one time in the West Wing, and she's like, I can't be effective here anymore. And she hit the road. That's what she did. She went personally, met with the governors, drove around the country. I remember that car with an aide, because she had to get around what was happening inside the White House. And I think a lot of people were unaware that she was doing that. But that is the level of what people had to do just to operate on a responsible endeavor of facts and science and trying to do their best to navigate the space. And I don't see anything like that happening right now. In fact, they're doing the counter right, and they're going to continue to push these agendas. And I saw, I think they canceled a meeting. They have a typical meeting where they meet on the flu and they get all the experts in at the FDA and other places, and I think they've canceled that. So what is actually happening in our health response here for our country? And I think we've got the answer.
- [19:56]
Jim Acosta
It's scary. I'm going to be talking with Congressman Jake Auchincloss in a few minutes from now about some of these questions. And, you know, one of the things I'm going to talk to him about, I'm going to ask you about is what your thoughts were on that speech the other night, Olivia. I mean, as somebody who was part of the Trump administration, to see Donald Trump back in the House chamber delivering a speech to a joint session of Congress in that fashion, I mean, there are a lot of people who think I'm one of them. He just has no business being there. He should have been disqualified from the presidency a long time ago, and he wasn't. And we, you and I have talked about that a million times, you know, ad nauseam. But what, what were your thoughts seeing him the other night and what it meant for the country? What did it, what did it say to you?
- [20:45]
Olivia Troy
Look, I thought he gave a very authoritarian, like, speech is what it sounded like to me. He did everything that I expected him to do. I think he went out of his way to, you know, attack our allies, place the blame on them. You know, he not once acknowledged, like, the veterans in our military that are being hurt right now. I mean, it was bravado at its finest. I thought it was typical Donald Trump. He commanded the stage and took the attention. And I think what was sickening to me is just how far the Republican Party has gone to walk just in lockstep with him in that moment. I mean, to see all of them just fawning on him when he was blatantly stating lies.
- [21:36]
Jim Acosta
Right.
- [21:36]
Olivia Troy
And that's the problem over and over and over. And you have an entire political party of everyone lauding him, everyone fell in line behind him. And I think that is what's really hard to see right now, is just watching him have control of everything and continue to espouse the typical lunacy that comes out of his mouth that is nowhere near factual, and that this is the president of our country and that the entire world was watching that, too. Right. I mean, the message that he was sending, what our allies must be thinking in light. And then with all of the backdrop of it, that's what's happening with Ukraine, what's happening with the lack of sharing of intelligence. What's happening with, like, supporting basically, Putin and everything that he wants and ceding everything to Russia. And I think that it was. It was hard. I'm not gonna lie. It was very hard to watch him, you know, claim that this is the comeback. Yeah, it's a comeback for him. But, you know, I've gotta be honest, I was. I was with. I was on Al Green's side because when he stood up and, you know, when he said, like, no, you don't have a mandate to cut Medicaid, he's absolutely right. I mean, yeah, yes, Donald Trump has voted in. There were a lot of voters that supported him, but I don't think they supported a lot of these things like Doge and everything that they're getting right now. And so it's just. Yeah, it was just a sad, sad moment to see.
- [23:04]
Jim Acosta
Yeah. And I've been saying this all week. I'm kind of live and let live about people, you know, expressing themselves when it comes to the craziness that is flying in our face every day. And if Al Green wants to get up there and wave his cane and say, you don't have a mandate to cut Medicaid, you know what? Go ahead, do your thing. You know, after Marjorie Taylor Greene and Lauren Boebert and Trump calling Elizabeth Warren Pocahontas, I mean, all bets are off. I mean, this idea of decorum, you know, since when does Donald Trump adhere to any kind of decorum? I mean, it just. It just doesn't happen.
- [23:33]
Olivia Troy
And I also felt like it was a campaign rally still.
- [23:37]
Jim Acosta
It was. It was all about.
- [23:38]
Olivia Troy
I mean, when is it going to click? That hey, you're president, buddy. You got it. So stop attacking Biden over and over. I mean, he's so obsessed with Biden still. It's like an obsession. Right? He really is. And so he's still attacking Biden. Then he flips to Warren and then he says crazy stuff again. I mean, decorum. Donald Trump is like the antithesis of that. So, like, let's just stop with the fallacies of, like, pretending that there's going to be decorum in this chamber. Right. Because that's not happening. And Republicans don't behave that way anyways. And they haven't. They haven't granted the same grace to the Democrats when they've been in leadership. I mean, so it's just. I just. Yeah, well.
- [24:18]
Jim Acosta
And people are.
- [24:19]
Olivia Troy
You know what I have to say about this here? That's me. That was me when I was watching the speech right there. It was my screaming goat.
- [24:27]
Jim Acosta
The screaming goat. We were all screaming goats that night. There's no question about it. Especially the moment when he said the days of unelected bureaucrats ruling over your lives are over. And then I just think of just about every American at home was saying Elon Musk. And it was like the camera, I think the C SPAN camera almost panned to Elon Musk at that very moment. And it was just so painfully obvious that, you know, he has no idea. You know, the ultimate unelected bureaucrat ruling over people's lives right now is Elon Musk. I mean, you know, it's, you know, what are you smoking over there? But you mentioned Ukraine, and I think we should talk about that because this has been in your wheelhouse, too, working on national security issues. Apparently, Trump today said that he continues to believe that Russian President Vladimir Putin wants peace and that he is finding it more difficult, frankly, to deal with Ukraine. That's a quote from Donald Trump. He said the Oval Office and the US has suspended temporarily satellite imagery sharing services with Ukraine, which obviously is going to hurt them. I mean, this is. In addition to freezing the weapon shipments, the military aid. Olivia, what does that tell you? I mean, we're not going to share satellite imagery with them. I guess we just want them to lose now. I mean, that's basically what's happening here.
- [25:40]
Olivia Troy
Yeah, I should say we. He wants to lose. Yeah, Yeah. I think that tells you that Trump is siding with Russia, clearly. And what he's doing is he's actually helping them operationally. Right. Because what he's doing is he's really significantly hurting Ukraine's defense posture. Right now, he's hurting their strategic advantage. Like, I mean, he's weakening their defense by doing this, whether it's the satellites. I mean, satellites will affect drone use. They'll affect their ability to do reconnaissance on where Russian troops are. I mean, when they announced that they had stopped sharing intelligence, there was an attack. Right. That happened in Ukraine right after it, and lives were lost. And so what really kind of, like, makes me sick to my stomach is that the United States is basically aiding Russia now in this war. That's what we've done, because we are cutting off and killing people. And I know that, and I don't say that lightly at all, because as a national security person, it really just makes me actually, like, physically ill to think about that. But that is what we're doing to a country that basically, like, is just fighting for their own rights. Right. I mean, that. That is what has happened here. Yeah. They were a sovereign democracy and they were under attack. Regardless of whatever disinformation and flipping of the script people want to do, that is a reality. And I will say this, too. I had a glimmer of hope with someone that I worked very closely with during the first Trump administration, and that was General Keith Kellogg, who is playing a significant role right now in this effort. And for a while, I saw him kind of take a stand when he went and he met with Zelensky and he put out a statement and he was talking about the strength of Zelenskyy and how he stand by Ukraine. And I saw that and actually was like, wow, this is how he gets fired. Literally. That's what I thought, because I was like, you are going against every messaging there is. Fast forward. He goes to the Council of Foreign Relations. You guys should look this up. He literally parrots Kremlin talking points. He was repeating Russian propaganda. And I think that there was.
- [27:47]
Jim Acosta
Somebody was on Twitter saying Ukraine brought it on themselves. That would have been said that at the Council on Foreign Relations.
- [27:54]
Olivia Troy
And apparently there was an audible gasp in the room to hear him say that. And I don't blame them because.
- [28:01]
Jim Acosta
And this is somebody you work with.
- [28:02]
Olivia Troy
Yes. And he knows better. We've had conversations about Ukraine. Right. We both lived through the first impeachment when Ukraine was the topic of the day. Right. So I, and I, for a second, I was proud of him because I was like, okay, he's actually going to do the right thing here.
- [28:19]
Jim Acosta
Yeah.
- [28:19]
Olivia Troy
He's a long time retired general, and maybe he's going to actually, like, try to hold the line on this issue. No, and clearly, I mean, they've all fallen line and that to me.
- [28:31]
Jim Acosta
And if you don't, if you don't, if you don't parrot Donald Trump, if you're not the monkey to his organ grinder, you are out. You, you are not going to be a part of the administration. And, and we've seen this take place. I mean, the Marco Rubio, you know, slumping into the sofa a week ago, you know, it's just, it's a remarkable collapse of courage and principles.
- [28:58]
Olivia Troy
Yeah. And the message to our allies and Europe is basically very clear that the United States is now standing with the axis of evil. Right. They're standing with our foreign adversaries. That's where the US Is and to Europe and to, I mean, I remain very concerned about NATO. I remain very concerned about what Trump will do going forward. He continues to bring them up, he continues to attack them. He's continuing to message on that. He didn't specifically go after them during his speech on Tuesday night, but he basically used the same talking points that he's been using to NATO. Right. About placing the blame on them. They're not paying their share. The United States isn't going to come to their rescue. I think recently he just made some, he lied, I think, just recently about, you know, Article 5 of NATO and how they won't come to our defense. And I'm like, you do realize that, I mean, they were there after 9 11.
- [29:55]
Jim Acosta
They did it after 9 11. That's right.
- [29:56]
Olivia Troy
Yeah.
- [29:57]
Jim Acosta
Article 5.
- [29:57]
Olivia Troy
And that's why NATO matters, because we need them and we need to lean on each other. And so I think what they're seeing in terms of what's happening with Ukraine, who our alliance is right now, unfortunately, I think is very worrisome to them. And I think it's really sad to see Europe saying, hey, we're going to meet and band together because we can no longer trust the United States. And that puts us in a really bad spot. And I think, I worry for our country of what's to come in the next few years, of what the future looks like for us.
- [30:33]
Jim Acosta
Well, Olivia, I, I always appreciate when you come on and the way you just tell it like it is and not mincing any words, it gets me in trouble. No, I know, I know, I know it does. I know it does. But it means a lot to a lot of people out there, and I'm sure you saw some of the comments coming through. It means a lot to a lot of people that you do that and you continue to do that. And it is important to note that when we say that Donald Trump is siding with the Russians, that is not exactly the same thing as technically, it may mean that the United States, he is the commander in chief, but not all of the United States. It's him. Yeah, absolutely.
- [31:07]
Olivia Troy
Yeah. And I have to believe that the world, the rest of the world that's watching this knows that. And I can't imagine, honestly, it's kind of sad. I sometimes, like, you know, I'm thinking about it at night and I just wonder. I'm like, they must feel so sorry for us right now. Right. Like, we're right now that country where they're watching us and they're, like, sitting there saying, God, America, like poor Americans, what they must be going through, watching this. Like, I know there's got to be some empathy there because we would be doing that with them. Right. We'd be worried about them just like we were with Ukraine. And so I think that's just, you know, I don't know. I guess the days of being the beacon of light and democracy around the world are getting dimmer every day, and it's just. It's really hard to see.
- [31:52]
Jim Acosta
Yeah. Well, Olivia, thank you very much. Always great to talk to you. Really appreciate it. And we'll do this again soon. And give your best to your mom. Give my best to your mom, I should say. She's. She's terrific. And always enjoy. Yeah.
- [32:05]
Olivia Troy
Thank you. She thinks the world of you. And, you know, I'm always big with the moms. Yeah. She's like, I gotta tune in. And so I'm teaching her. She's learning subsack, by the way, if she can do it, all of you and everyone else can. So encourage your relatives and family because she's figured it out so good.
- [32:23]
Jim Acosta
Well, say hi to her. Thank you. Thank you so much.
- [32:26]
Jake Auchincloss
Good to see Olivia.
- [32:26]
Jim Acosta
Great. Appreciate it very much. I'm going to bring in Congressman Jake Aencloss into the conversation. He is standing by. He is somebody who comes from a military background and will obviously have, I think, some. Some really interesting insights into some of the news that Olivia and I were talking about. Olivia is almost like she almost like having a co anchor there. I. I mean, she just knocked it out of the park and was very much willing to just go through all those different headlines. And there's Congressman Auchincloss right there. Congressman Jake Auchincloss, welcome to the Jim Acosta show. Good to see you, sir.
- [33:04]
Jake Auchincloss
Good afternoon, Jim. Thanks for having me on.
- [33:06]
Jim Acosta
Hey, thank you for doing this. I appreciate it. Is this your first substack?
- [33:11]
Jake Auchincloss
This is my maiden voyage.
- [33:13]
Jim Acosta
Very good. Well, I'm going to try to make it as painless as possible. Appreciate you doing this. And I guess Olivia Troy and I were just having this conversation about Ukraine, and I don't know how much of it you caught, but Trump was again today parroting these Russian talking points, talking about how he feels as though he's better off working with the Russians than with the Ukrainians and that the Ukrainians don't want peace. I mean, he keeps saying these sorts of things. And then on top of that, there's this whole headline that came out today that the US Is not providing the satellite imagery to the Ukrainians that the United States has in the past. And there have been some Russian attacks coinciding with that timing. And it is rather worrisome. Just curious, just to start there. We can bounce around to different topics, but what are your thoughts on what we've been seeing from this White House on Ukraine over the last couple of days? And obviously, you know, going back to last week with Zelensky in the Oval Office.
- [34:18]
Jake Auchincloss
That Oval Office exchange was one of the most shameful episodes in the modern American presidency. Vladimir Zelinsky flew to Washington, D.C. but he walked right into the Kremlin. And I think we actually have to understand Donald Trump's posture towards Russia not from a basis of politics, but from a basis of psychology. Donald Trump is a beta, to use Gen Z's Internet slang, and he views Vladimir Putin as an alpha. And so he subordinates himself to who he perceives as an alpha. And it's very hard to break free of that psychological paradigm for Donald Trump. He is always going to have this sycophancy to Vladimir Putin. The question then that Americans need to ask ourselves is how can we still support Ukraine when the Commander in Chief is parroting Kremlin propaganda? And I'll put forward that what it requires is one, we have got to get our European allies to unfreeze those Russian assets held In Brussels, about 300 billion euros held in Brussels right now, and use those assets to equip Ukraine with the multi layered defense strategy that will be necessary for it to guarantee its own security. Probably costs between 20 to 40 billion dollars a year. That's about what it cost South Korea and Israel to defend themselves in similar circumstances. And it would pay for a front line for Ukraine, a strategic rapid response force, and then the aerial defenses necessary to secure cities and critical infrastructure.
- [36:05]
Jim Acosta
But I mean, how receptive would the White House be to That, I mean, at this point, we're pulling military aid from Ukraine, we're pulling the sharing of satellite imagery from Ukraine. It's almost as though Trump wants them to lose, and he's trying to put them on something of a losing streak so they come to the bargaining table with less leverage. I mean, it just looks like he's playing that kind of a game right now, which strikes me as a very dangerous one.
- [36:33]
Jake Auchincloss
That's why the idea is important, is that you don't need Trump's sign off.
- [36:36]
Jim Acosta
Interesting.
- [36:37]
Jake Auchincloss
Those Euros are held in Brussels, and the security guarantees that Ukraine needs can come one, from its own armed forces. Ultimately, Ukraine, in the long run, to have sovereignty, will need to be able to guarantee its own security. That's really the definition of sovereignty. But two, from Lisbon's Article 42.7, the Lisbon Treaty has its own collective defense article. France has used it in 2015, for example. And Ukraine could accede to the European Union by 2030, I think is a reasonable shot clock to put on that. But immediately get 42.7 security guarantees commensurate with the funding it's getting from Russian frozen assets. So that Europe is signaling to Russia. We're defending Ukraine right now, and Ukraine is signaling to Russia, and we're building an army and a frontier defense system that will, in the long term, guarantee our sovereignty.
- [37:29]
Jim Acosta
And do you think that Ukraine can survive without American help if the Europeans go it along? We've seen the French talk about this in that regard. We've seen the British talk about this in that regard. We saw a lot of NATO partners meeting with Zelensky last weekend after that debacle in the Oval Office. Can Ukraine do it without the United States? Can they survive without the United States? And it sounds like. I mean, I know you. You just laid out a proposal where that would certainly help them get. Get on that path. But do you think in the long run that. That it is sustainable, that they can survive.
- [38:09]
Jake Auchincloss
In the long run? Yes. What I'm most concerned about is the very short term, and in particular, the Patriot batteries that they use to defend their cities and critical infrastructure. What the Russians do increasingly is they strike energy and power infrastructure in Ukrainian cities meant to demoralize and demobilize the civilian population and impair their war economy. That's American arms. Excuse me, and American intelligence and data sharing, and that's what Donald Trump has turned off. That's significantly hamstringing Ukrainian aerial defense.
- [38:42]
Jim Acosta
Yeah. And I guess I was also talking with Olivia, and I wanted to get your take on it, I guess you were there. I should confirm that you were there for the speech the other night, Trump's speech to the joint session of Congress. What was your reaction? I mean, you saw Al Green getting up there and making his voice heard. That certainly happened. But what Trump was saying throughout the entire speech, I mean, you could just hear the laptops of fact checkers nationwide just kind of exploding. It was very difficult to keep up with a lot of the misleading claims that he was making. But you were there. What was it like? What was your reaction?
- [39:28]
Jake Auchincloss
It was a bad night for American politics generally, both parties. Candidly, for Donald Trump himself, He spoke for 100 minutes. He spent two of those minutes talking about the cost of living. And of those two minutes, more than half of it was saying that prices were going to go up in this country. That is the two minutes that Democrats need to key into. You know, he's talking about a lot of other stuff, and much of it is entertaining. I think little of it is actually going to be resonant next November. What we have to be keyed into is that this man and his congressional allies are trying to cut taxes for people who don't need tax cuts, and they're paying for it by cutting health care for people who do need health care.
- [40:15]
Jim Acosta
Yeah. And that was one of the things that Congressman Green was raising an issue about with respect to Medicaid. When, when Trump made that gesture to Elon Musk and said, you know, Elon Musk is in charge of Doge, what went through your mind when you heard that? Because one of the things that has been going on over the last couple of days is I've been calling it sort of cleanup on aisle Doge. You know, Trump's telling his Cabinet secretaries, you're in charge of these cuts at these agencies, not Elon Musk. And apparently, according to the Associated Press, Elon Musk went to some House Republicans and said, hey, don't blame this stuff on me. I'm not in charge of what is going on. Congressman, do you know. Do we know who's in charge of Doge? I mean, it seems to be Elon Musk is in charge of Doge, but they're going through a lot of machinations the latter part of this week trying to say otherwise.
- [41:11]
Jake Auchincloss
Jim, I've said since January that the shelf life of Elon Musk and Doge is not much past this summer. Donald Trump is transactional. He's going to use Musk and Doge for the shock factor, for the chaos factor, for the flood the zone strategy that Steve Bannon has long recommended. It's going to anger a lot of people. The feedback loops are going to start to cycle into Congressional Republicans political fortunes coming next November. They're going to get unhappy about it. Donald Trump will kick Musk to the curb, say thank you very much for buying me the presidency, but I'm president now, so don't really need you anymore. And now you become a liability. Musk, next year is not going to be relevant in Washington D.C. anymore. I think most politicians get that joke. Musk, not famous for his ability to laugh at himself, but others are going to be laughing at him soon enough.
- [42:01]
Jim Acosta
Yeah, yeah, that's true. I mean, he doesn't seem to get that with Trump. It's sort of. It's always a one way street. It's not sort of a one way street. It's always a one. It's always a one way street. And when he's done with you, he's done with you. I saw what happened with Steve Bannon. You mentioned Steve Bannon. You know, people forget Steve Bannon was his chief strategist. He was an employee of the federal government at the White House in the early stages of the first Trump presidency. And then when Trump was done with him, he threw him out the door. I did want to ask you this because you come from a military background. What has been your assessment of the way military veterans have been treated in these Doge cuts? I spoke with a woman the other day on this program who is a disabled U.S. air Force veteran. She was working for FEMA. She spent 40 days responding to Hurricane Helene. I can't get this story out of my head. I've been thinking about this, this poor lady all week. She goes for a promotion, she gets the promotion. Then Trump comes into office and within a few weeks she's laid off as part of the Doge cuts. What is. Can anything be done? It almost seems like they may be shamed and to stop doing this, but in terms of stopping the firings of our veterans, I mean, they're the ones that they should be working in places like fema. That's who we want in those jobs.
- [43:18]
Jake Auchincloss
Absolutely. And we know Donald Trump's point of view on veterans. He thinks they're, quote, unquote, losers and suckers because he can't conceive of the idea of putting country before self. It's not just the treatment of veterans, though. I think the treatment of veterans is a particularly emotionally resonant example of a broader phenomenon, which is the disdain that Trump and his courtiers have for expertise and for civil service. They don't want civil servants who look at evidence or who value expertise because they want a court that governs through fear and favor. It's a patrimonial mindset rather than a procedural mindset. That's very dangerous because what that does is it personalizes politics. It means that if you criticize the boss, you got to worry about a knock on your door at night. It means if you want to open a business, you got to pay off the local regulator. That's not the kind of country where we want to live in. I want to live in a country where agree or disagree on politics, we can have a civil society and an economy that functions divorced from the. From the animus of the day. And that's not what Donald Trump wants to build. And he wants to undermine the bureaucracy that helps insulate Americans from his own whims.
- [44:24]
Jim Acosta
Yeah, I mean, I think it's terrific that we have folks like yourself representing citizens of this country as a member of Congress. I mean, I just think in every way, shape and form, we should be helping our military veterans do everything they want to do and serving the public. It's one of the best things about this country. And the other question that I have about the Doge cuts is one of the things that's been in the news this past week is apparently the House Republican leadership has said to some of their members, please stop having town halls. We don't want any more town halls because we don't want to see on the Today show people raising hell and yelling at Republican lawmakers in deep red districts in Texas. Have you had any town halls? Are you going to have some town halls? What are you hearing from people? Because I'm assuming you're hearing from folks from all walks of life. And I know folks in Massachusetts. They don't hold back when they express their points of view. What are you hearing?
- [45:22]
Jake Auchincloss
I have had many town halls, teletown halls in person. Town halls zoom. Town halls. And you're right, Baystaters for the last 400 years have been sharing their opinions. And Massachusetts does not like kings, and it does not like presidents who act like kings. We will remind the country of that as we approach our 250th anniversary of the revolution. I'm hosting another set of town halls tomorrow, one in Fall River. The biggest city in my district that voted for Donald Trump, actually, for the first time in 100 years, went for a Republican president. So I expect to hear a diversity of viewpoints tomorrow. Looking forward to it. But one thing I know as a member of Congress is either I talk to my constituents over the course of my two year term or they talk to me at the ballot box and I'm not going to like what they have to say. So these Republican members of Congress, they may think they can run and hide from their attempts to cut at home care for seniors, primary care for kids, substance use care from those struggling with opioid use, all to pay for tax cuts for the 1%. Their constituents are no fools. They will hear and they will act next November.
- [46:25]
Jim Acosta
And what are in the outreach that you're getting at your congressional offices in Washington and in Massachusetts, what are folks saying? Are they saying that they're concerned about their Social Security, for example? I mean, that's something that I hear from, that I've been hearing anecdotally that people are worried that because of all these doge cuts at the Social Security Administration, if you have thousands of people who are laid off the Social Security, but I have to assume that you have senior citizens who are calling your office and wondering are they going to get their Social Security checks on time? I mean, the tentacles that are at play here just seem to be far reaching and go in all sorts of different directions. And I suppose in a twisted sort of way, it is a reminder of how much we do, you know, I don't want to say depend on the federal government. That's not the right way of putting it, but we do have a social safety net in this country that people have come to rely on. And like in this country, the federal.
- [47:24]
Jake Auchincloss
Government is mostly an insurance company. When you look at our revenues, right, a health insurance company, a retirement insurance company, as it should be. Insurance companies need to be big. And because of adverse selection factors generally, government backing for insurance actually makes a lot of sense, economically speaking. And I say that as someone who's a, you know, pro market, pro growth kind of Democrat, but it totally makes sense to have public backing for this. And I'm glad you raised Social Security because what concerned me about his speech and the lies he told about Social Security were not actually the lies themselves. And just to be clear to our listeners, what he said about fraud, about Social Security was entirely debunked. That we are not paying benefits to millions of people who are 150 years old. It's not true. What concerns me about, yeah, I'd like.
- [48:08]
Jim Acosta
To meet that 300-year-old person. But anyway, yeah, it's, it's, it's not happening.
- [48:14]
Jake Auchincloss
Social Security is actually Quite a well run program. Small amounts of fraud. What concerns me is the kernel of truth within those lies. And the kernel of truth is the Republicans want to privatize Social Security. They tried to do it during George W. Bush's presidency. Democrats fought it off, and many of those same neoconservatives have squirreled their way back into the Trump orbit. And they are going to use these claims of fraud as a screen to then privatize or otherwise defund Social Security. They're trying to do it already with field offices, including in my district, and I'm worried that they're going to take it to the next step now. That's why we have to fight back to protect Social Security.
- [48:54]
Jim Acosta
Yeah, you're absolutely right about that. I mean, that has been sort of a fever dream among people on the, the far right in Washington going back to the 80s. I mean, I remember Grover Norquist, who was one of those anti tax zealots in Washington, used to say, you know, you want to shrink the size of government so much that you can drown them in the bathtub. I mean, this has been, this is not just something that just came upon the scene with Elon Musk and Russ vode over at OMB and Project 2025. Project 2025 was sort of a manifestation of sort of all of their, you know, fever dreams that they've had for the last, you know, you know, generation or so in terms of shrinking down the size of government. And every time a Republican gets into the White House, they say, yahtzee, this is our moment. This is when we're going to be able to accomplish this kind of stuff. And it seems as though Trump, because everything is so transactional with him, is like, okay, guys, yeah, if you want to do the project 2025, have at it. You know, it's. If you want to do the Doge thing, have at it. If you want to get rid of the social safety net in this country, have at it. And it just seems to me that there's going to be a rude awakening, as there always is, during a midterm cycle for Donald Trump. Uh oh, did we lose you there? Congressman, can you hear me? Congressman, can you hear me?
- [50:16]
Jake Auchincloss
I can hear you in my back.
- [50:17]
Jim Acosta
You're back, you're back. No, I was just saying that, I mean, to your point, this has been a goal of the far right for some time.
- [50:27]
Jake Auchincloss
Yeah. And this is what I don't understand, Jim, is I understand what Trump is doing. He told us what he was gonna do, and he's doing it and as we used to say in the Marine Corps, we can be forgiven for being defeated, but never for being surprised. And I'm not surprised by what Trump is doing. Yeah, I am very surprised that Congressional Republicans are allowing themselves to be frog marched off the gangplank right now by Donald Trump. Donald Trump is not facing the voters again, but Congressional Republicans have about a year before they are facing significant political activity in their home districts. And the things that they are talking about are not popular. And this is why, as Democrats, we have to be so disciplined. I understand the anger and the anxiety, the demand for us to respond to everything that's happening. Here's what I do, though. I listen to what Steve Bannon is talking about and I key in to the advice that Steve Bannon is giving to his MAGA Republican friends. And then I see where they're ignoring him. And where they're ignoring him is their liability. Because Steve Bannon was the savviest political thinker that MAGA Republicans ever had, and they're ignoring him now. What he is telling them to do Is to drop Doge and to drop the tax cuts for the 1% and to drop the threats against Medicaid because he knows how unpopular they are. And what that tells me, Jim, is, oh, boy, Democrats should be laser focused on the fact that Republicans are trying to give tax cuts to the 1% and cut Medicaid and dismantle the bureaucracy or the civil service that Americans rely upon.
- [52:08]
Jim Acosta
Yeah, yeah. Steve Bannon kind of gave away the game there a little bit. You're right about that. And he has been. It's. A lot of people have been scratching their heads and saying, why am I all of a sudden agreeing with Steve Bannon? Did I, did I accidentally. Did something fall into my drink? What's going on here? It is one of the damnedest things out there. There's no question about it.
- [52:25]
Jake Auchincloss
Yeah, he's like the evil genius of the MAGA movement. And they, they're not ignoring. They're ignoring him now. And that tells me that they're going to be massively, massively exposed.
- [52:35]
Jim Acosta
And, and Congressman, I want to ask you a question that I've been asking a lot of my guests lately, and that is, where do the Democrats go from here? Because I'm sure you're hearing this when you go into the Dunkin Donuts in Massachusetts or what have you. I'm sure you're having people come up to you and saying, we want you to fight Moore. It seems like that's the message from the Democratic grassroots level. Are you picking up on that? And, and what do you make of, I mean, I've been talking about James Carville a lot. I love James. He comes on the show a lot and he made this comment about, well, you know, Democrats ought to just let things go right now with Trump because Trump's going to fall on his face and Democrats can reap the rewards if they could just get out of the way. Do you have any thoughts on this? You come from a younger generation of Democrats. You're sort of the next generation of Democrats in the halls of Congress. What do you think?
- [53:30]
Jake Auchincloss
Yes, we have to fight. We have to fight on Ukraine. We have to fight for the rule of law. We have to fight to protect Social Security and Medicaid and we will fight. But Jim, we also have to be better. Democrats need new and big ideas that can earn the trust of the American electorate, that we know how to deliver economics performance, that we know how to govern. Our biggest problem as Democrats is not just the Republican trifecta in Washington, D.C. it's the Democratic trifecta in California or Illinois or New York or New Jersey. States that have soaring housing costs, soaring health care costs and declining quality of education. How are we going to earn voters trust nationally if the states that we run are losing population? So we need ideas for how to make child care more affordable, how to make housing more affordable, how to make health care more affordable, how to ensure public safety and uphold social order. I've been putting forward these ideas, everything from one on one tutoring for kids to factory built housing and zoning and land use reforms. We got to do the whole thing. But it's time for us to think boldly and differently because if we become the party of the status quo, we will lose again in 2028.
- [54:42]
Jim Acosta
Yeah, and I definitely think you're onto something there because it does seem that those bread and butter economic issues and we didn't even talk about the tariffs, are really on the minds of a lot of Americans. And Trump was elected presumably, I mean, the experts say because of inflation. And he was viewed as somebody who could bring down inflation. Obviously he has not done that. Inflation is either the same or getting worse in a lot of different categories and the, the tariffs may make that even worse. But do you, do you get the sense that others in your party are also kind of coming back to the yeah, it is the economy stupid type of message and you have to hit those issues or else the voters are going to say, I'm going to go with the demagogue. I'M going to go with the guy who, you know, insults everybody and acts like a maniac. Sometimes.
- [55:31]
Jake Auchincloss
I think it's even more fundamental, which is that it's about trust. The defining feature of this political era is low trust. People do not trust the institutions of Washington D.C. or the people in Washington D.C. and Jim, you and I can both remember that that wasn't always the case. After September 11, for example, the amount of trust in this country for our leaders was quite high. And that has just gone straight downhill because of Iraq, because of the Great Recession, et cetera. Covid true. And the party that builds trust with voters first will have a generational advantage now. Donald Trump is trying to build trust through tribalism. He's telling people who to be against. You know, Americans versus immigrants or the people versus the elites, or America versus the world. He's very good at us versus them rhetoric. And that does resonate, there's no question about it. Just humans by nature respond to that kind of language, but it's also self limiting. You build coalitions by subtraction that way. We have to build, as a party, trust through performance, and in particular on economic performance. We have to have a theory about why things cost so much more now than they used to, particularly housing, health care, childcare and higher education. There is a theory about that. We can go into it on a separate podcast, Jim. But, yeah, there is, but we have to govern on it. And the problem that I have is in blue states, those things, housing and health care and child care are more expensive than in the red states. And for so long as that is true, it's going to be hard for us to build trust with builders.
- [56:59]
Jim Acosta
Yeah, no, it's a great point. I mean, I just, I mean, not to get too personal, but I, I put, I helped my dad get into assisted living this past week and it was, it was, it's a difficult thing to go through for a family. And the high cost of that kind of transition for a senior citizen is, you know, it causes stress, it causes anxiety. And I, it's one of the issues I feel like we don't talk enough about. And I, I'm more of a Gen Xer. I feel like maybe you're maybe more of a millennial not to date things and throw ages in there and stuff like that. Your generation is going to get to that in, you know, in a very short period of time where, where maybe some of you are already there. But you know, there is like this, this pinch that people are in right now. People have to prepare for their kids to go to college. They're preparing for their parents to go into, you know, their golden years. And there may be costs that come with that too. And we don't talk about that kind of stuff. The real stuff that people are going through.
- [57:59]
Jake Auchincloss
When I think about economic policy for this, for this party, I picture 50 year old woman. She's got two kids, middle school and high school. She's got mom and dad. And dad is starting to slide a little bit on recall and she's worried that he has Alzheimer's disease. And she's wondering, I got a full time job, I got a mortgage. Our health insurance premiums are going up double digits every year. I got two kids, they both want to go to college. I'm thinking now about Medicaid for dad. I'm thinking about what's going to happen with mom when dad goes into memory care, if we can even afford that. And all of those things, the housing, the health care, the higher education, they're inflating year over year faster than her salary is. And it's, it's mom that gets squeezed so painfully there. And Democrats don't have an answer for her about how we're going to make those things hurt less. And we have to have a bold vision, hey, we're going to get Alzheimer's cured by 2050. We're going to do that as a party. Forget about exploring Mars. If Elon Musk wants to go pay to go to Mars, he can pay to go to Mars. We're going to cure Alzheimer's because that's what matters to you.
- [59:00]
Jim Acosta
Yeah. Well, Congressman Auchincloss, thank you so much for your time. One of the things that I love about this show is we do have extra time to talk about these big meaty issues. And I really appreciate you giving us so much of your time to do that today. Thanks a lot. Hope we can get you back on here again. Hope I didn't scare you off for next time.
- [59:24]
Jake Auchincloss
I enjoyed it, Jim. Be well. Have a good weekend.
- [59:26]
Jim Acosta
All right, thanks a lot. You too, Congressman. I appreciate it very much. That was Congressman Jake Auchincloss from Massachusetts who is going to be having some town halls. I don't know if you, if you guys caught that there. And I felt like one of the reasons why I kind of go along with some of these interviews is because you kind of get right to it at the end. You know, we're, we were sort of getting to that point where it feels like, yes, we got to something really meaty and weighty. And at the heart of what so many folks are going through right now. And I think he makes an excellent point about talking about those bread and butter issues. And so I appreciate his time very much. Also appreciate Olivia Troy coming on. Hi again to Olivia Troy's mom. If she's watching, always enjoy seeing her as well. I do want to end the show talking a little bit. I put this on my post about previewing the show earlier today. I was down on the National Mall today and there was a big protest taking place in, in favor of science in this country. And the protest was attended by a lot of people who have been laid off at the nih, noaa, some of these other important agencies of the federal government where you have scientists who are working. And one of the persons there in attendance was Dr. Francis Collins, who retired just the other day from the NIH. He had been there for 32 years. He was on the Human Genome Project before running nih. And if you don't get a chance to see it, I'll put it on my social so folks can see it. Dr. Francis Collins got up in front of this huge crowd of three or four thousand people, it looked like, gathered in front of the Lincoln Memorial on the National Mall. And he was playing his guitar and he gave a speech. It wasn't a fire and brimstone speech. He did say, yes, he is concerned about what is happening to this country right now. But he talked about how the government is supposed to be of the people, by the people and for the people. And he made this connection between that and science and how science is supposed to be of the people, by the people and for the people. And if you look at the incredible work Dr. Collins was saying at the NIH and the other science based agencies of the federal government, all of those missions, many of those missions, are very much of the people, by the people, for the people. And I saw a woman carrying a sign that said, don't mind me, I'm just trying to help cure multiple sclerosis. You had other people who were talking about the work that they were doing. I saw a kid there who said, I'm here because of the work that is done to cure cancer. And so it just made, it made an impact on me and was one of the reasons why I went down there. But Dr. Francis Collins @ one point talked about the Hippocratic oath of do no harm, essentially raising the question, is that what's happening right now? Is that what's happening right now? And this is me talking now because it does look like we are doing a lot of harm. If you look at what's taking place with this measles outbreak in Texas right Now, you know, two people have died, 200 cases. How is it that measles is making a comeback in this country? I saw another lady down at the protest today who said you voted for. You voted because of the price of eggs and you got measles. I thought that sign summed up things pretty succinctly. Pretty succinctly of the people, by the people, for the people. We all believe in it. We should all believe in it as Americans. But it's, it's important to note that scientists like Dr. Francis Collins believes in that, too. So I'll, if you have, if you go on substack and you look at my notes, you'll see I've got some video in there of Dr. Francis Collins, and I've interviewed him a few times. I did during the COVID pandemic. I did not realize he played the guitar, but he plays it pretty well. And he did earlier today down on the National Mall. I chatted with him for a few moments. Hope to try to get him on the program at some point in the future. He just recently retired from the NIH, the National Institutes of Health here in the Washington, D.C. area. A lot of remarkable people who work in the science field but have government jobs. And you know, this, this goes to where we are as a country right now. We should be doing no harm when it comes to science, when it comes to public health, do no harm. As you go into this weekend, folks, thank you very much for watching. Still reporting from Washington, I'm Jim Acosta. Have a great weekend. Thanks for watching. Take care. Bye.