Roland Martin, Doctor Howard Zucker and author Chris Whipple

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Jim Acosta Show Episode: Roland Martin, Doctor Howard Zucker, and Author Chris Whipple
Release Date: April 24, 2025

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Introduction

In this engaging episode of The Jim Acosta Show, host Jim Acosta welcomes three distinguished guests: Roland Martin, Dr. Howard Zucker, and author Chris Whipple. The episode delves into critical discussions surrounding media independence, public health challenges, and the political landscape shaped by the 2024 campaign. Acosta sets the stage by highlighting the show's commitment to truth and authenticity, emphasizing the need to resist lies and fear.

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Segment 1: Conversation with Roland Martin

Guest: Roland Martin
Duration: 04:00 – 35:08

Key Topics:

• Independent Media vs. Mainstream Media: Roland Martin discusses the evolution of media consumption, emphasizing how mainstream outlets failed to adapt to digital transformations similar to Blockbuster and Kodak.

• Early Adoption of Podcasting: Martin shares his pioneering efforts in launching the first Black news audio and video podcasts in 2005 and 2006, predating widespread podcasting trends.

• Authenticity and Real-Time Engagement: He underscores the audience's demand for genuine and unfiltered content, contrasting it with the scripted nature of traditional media. Martin highlights the importance of interactive and honest conversations over polished but disconnected broadcasts.

• Challenges with Mainstream Media: Martin critiques mainstream networks like CNN for their inability to facilitate real-time fact-checking and authentic dialogue, recounting an incident during the 2008 election where misleading statements were aired without immediate correction.

Notable Quotes:

• Roland Martin [07:33]: "Mainstream media made the exact same mistake that Blockbuster made. They weren't understanding where the public was going."

• Martin [17:50]: "People want authenticity. They want honesty. They're tired of the traditional media bullshit."

• Martin [27:06]: "Mainstream media, they're late. It happened during COVID... Now, they can't connect with their audience the way they used to."

Insights:

• The shift towards independent media platforms like Substack allows for more authentic and direct communication with audiences.

• Traditional media's resistance to embracing new technologies and formats resulted in lost opportunities to engage with a growing digital audience.

• The importance of centering marginalized voices, particularly African Americans, in media narratives to address underreported issues affecting these communities.

Conclusion of Segment: Jim Acosta commends Martin for his forward-thinking approach and the successful adaptation to digital media landscapes. The segment wraps up with mutual appreciation, emphasizing the value of unfiltered and honest media interactions.

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Segment 2: Conversation with Dr. Howard Zucker

Guest: Dr. Howard Zucker
Duration: 35:08 – 47:46

Key Topics:

• Public Health Challenges: Dr. Zucker addresses the resurgence of measles in Texas, attributing it to vaccine skepticism amplified by figures like RFK Jr. He stresses the critical role of vaccines in saving lives and the importance of community engagement in controlling outbreaks.

• Leadership at HHS: Zucker comments on RFK Jr.'s appointment as the Secretary of Health and Human Services (HHS), expressing concerns over his lack of expertise and potential influence on public health policies.

• Privacy in Medical Research: Discussion on the NIH's collection of private medical records for autism studies, highlighting the need for stringent privacy protections to safeguard individuals.

• Attacks on Scientific Institutions: Zucker voices alarm over legal and prosecutorial attempts to undermine reputable scientific journals like the New England Journal of Medicine, emphasizing that scientific research should remain independent of political interference.

• Erosion of Trust in Public Health: He elaborates on the diminishing trust in public health systems, exacerbated by the pandemic, and underscores the necessity of rebuilding this trust through transparency and reliable scientific communication.

Notable Quotes:

• Zucker [38:04]: "Vaccines save lives. If you get your measles vaccine, you save lives."

• Zucker [42:46]: "Prosecutors have no place in scientific research."

• Zucker [43:24]: "There's a lack of trust overall. The system is very good, and we shouldn't discourage that."

Insights:

• Effective public health responses require collaboration with communities and transparent communication to counteract misinformation.

• Political appointments in health sectors should prioritize expertise and scientific integrity to maintain robust public health systems.

• Protecting the privacy of individuals participating in medical research is paramount to uphold ethical standards and public trust.

Conclusion of Segment: Jim Acosta and Dr. Zucker conclude the discussion by reaffirming the importance of trust in public health systems and the dangers posed by political meddling in scientific research. Acosta encourages listeners to engage with Zucker's Docology podcast for further insights.

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Segment 3: Conversation with Chris Whipple

Guest: Chris Whipple
Duration: 47:46 – 68:00

Key Topics:

• Book Discussion: Chris Whipple introduces his New York Times bestseller, "How Trump Beat Biden Harris and the Odds in Winning the Wildest Campaign in History." He provides an overview of the book's exploration of the tumultuous 2024 campaign and the factors leading to Donald Trump's reelection.

• Trump's Leadership Style: Whipple analyzes Trump's governance, describing it as "policy chaos" and noting his inability to transition from a successful campaigner to an effective president.

• Susie Wiles' Role as Chief of Staff: The conversation highlights the challenges faced by Susie Wiles in managing Trump's administration, particularly her limitations in reigning in Trump's unpredictable behavior.

• Impact of Elon Musk: Whipple discusses Elon Musk's unprecedented influence in the White House, comparing it to historical figures like Nixon's Rebozo, and expressing surprise at Musk's outsized role in governance.

• Democratic Party's Failures: The discussion moves to the Democratic Party's internal shortcomings during Biden's presidency, citing a lack of candid assessments and strategic planning as reasons for their vulnerabilities.

• 2024 Campaign Insights: Whipple shares behind-the-scenes perspectives on the 2024 campaign's strategies, internal conflicts, and the unforeseen dynamics that shaped the election outcome.

Notable Quotes:

• Whipple [49:45]: "This was the political story of the century, Shakespearean in many ways, because of the twists and turns and betrayals."

• Whipple [58:52]: "Trump is never understanding that campaigning and governing are two different things."

• Whipple [62:22]: "It was delusional... the entire Democratic inner circle was deluded."

Insights:

• The 2024 campaign was marked by unprecedented tactics and internal strife, culminating in Trump's reelection despite widespread concerns about his leadership.

• The Democratic Party's failure to critically assess and adapt to Biden's vulnerabilities contributed significantly to their defeat, highlighting a disconnect between party leadership and strategic realities.

• External influences, such as those from high-profile figures like Elon Musk, have complicated traditional governance structures, raising questions about accountability and effectiveness.

Conclusion of Segment: Jim Acosta and Chris Whipple wrap up the discussion by emphasizing the lessons learned from the 2024 campaign. Acosta stresses the importance of understanding these dynamics to prevent future political turmoil and ensure a stable democratic process. The conversation underscores the high stakes involved in presidential leadership and the necessity for both parties to learn from past mistakes.

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Conclusion

Jim Acosta concludes the episode by reflecting on the insightful conversations with Roland Martin, Dr. Howard Zucker, and Chris Whipple. He reiterates the show's commitment to independent journalism and the importance of dissecting political and public health issues comprehensively. Acosta emphasizes the ongoing need to analyze past campaigns to safeguard the future of American democracy.

Final Remarks:

• Acosta: "We can't do it by doing this. You know, what needs to stop is Trump blaming the Ukrainians for what has happened in Ukraine... It's absolutely time for Russia to stop, but it is also time for Trump to stop."

The episode closes with Acosta thanking his guests and encouraging listeners to stay informed and engaged with the critical issues discussed.

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Key Takeaways

• Media Evolution: Independent media platforms offer a more authentic and interactive experience compared to traditional, scripted news outlets.

• Public Health Integrity: Maintaining trust in public health systems is crucial, especially in combating misinformation and political interference.

• Political Strategy and Accountability: The 2024 campaign serves as a case study in the consequences of flawed political strategies and internal party failures, highlighting the need for resilience and adaptability in democratic processes.

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Resources Mentioned

• Roland Martin's Substack and YouTube Channel: For independent news and political commentary.

• Dr. Howard Zucker's Docology Podcast: Covering topics on public health and autism research.

• Chris Whipple's Book: "How Trump Beat Biden Harris and the Odds in Winning the Wildest Campaign in History."

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Stay Informed: To gain deeper insights into the discussions and perspectives shared in this episode, consider following the guests on their respective platforms and engaging with their continued work on independent media and public health advocacy.

Transcript

[Jim Acosta]

Hey, welcome everybody to the Jim Acosta Show. It is Thursday afternoon, it's 4:00, as you know, as I like to call it. It is Friday Eve. We've got some really interesting guests lined up for you this afternoon. My old buddy from my old days in cable news, Roland Martin, he's going to be joining me in just a few moments, really interested in hearing from Roland about everything that is going on here in Washington. Roland does a lot of live programming himself and so it's going to be really interesting to hear from. As somebody is saying, f it Friday is around the corner. I just saw that from one of the viewers there. You're absolutely right. I cannot wait. It's eff it, Friday Eve. And so we'll see. Maybe we'll drop an f bomb or two between now and 5pm but Roland is wrapping up another interview. He's a busy man. And when he does that, I'll bring him into the live show and we'll talk to him in just a few moments. Also later on in the program, I'm going to be talking to Dr. Howard Zuckerberg, who is a renowned health expert, has spent time as the New York State health commissioner, has spent time at the CDC, the WHO. And so I'll be talking to Dr. Zucker, kind of following up on the conversation I started to have Yesterday with Rosie O'Donnell, which was just a fantastic interview. Rosie and I were talking about her child who has autism, what they've been going through as a family, how they have found that using a service dog can have just remark benefits when it comes to having a child with autism. And she has some very tough words about RFK Jr. And what he has been doing over at the Department of Health and Human Services. I'm going to talk to Dr. Zucker about that. That's going to be coming up a little later on in the program. And then after that I'll be touching base with author Chris Whipple. Chris Whipple has followed the political scene here in Washington for many, many years. He's got a new book out on the 2024 campaign and so looking forward to that as well. Yeah, somebody in Alaska chiming in and saying great interview with Rosie O'Donnell. I'm still beaming after that interview with Rosie O'Donnell yesterday that was just absolutely fantastic. And what was so beneficial to me during that was how much I learned from Rosie about autism and what parents go through when they have a child with autism. And so that was a lot of fun. But while Roland is getting ready to join us here in just a few moments. I'm hoping to hear from his folks here in just a few minutes about this. I do want to start this Thursday of the Jim Acosta show doing something I rarely do, and that is I am going to praise Fox News. That's right. You heard me right. I am going to praise. Well, I'm going to praise one thing about Fox News. I'm going to praise the latest poll from Fox News because it appears to be right on the money and Trump doesn't like it one bit. I'll talk to Roland about this when he gets on. This is according to Fox. New poll from Fox News shows Trump with an approval rating of 44%, down 5 points from the 49% he had in March. Fox noted the number is lower than where all of his most recent predecessors were at this point in their presidencies. And of course, Trump is coming up on 100 days in his presidency. Hold on. I got Roland here. Let's see if we can bring Roland into the conversation. Let's see if I can get him on. Looks like Roland is ready to go. Roland is ready to roll. Roland, you should see the invite now. I'm telling him this now. You should see the invite and you hit accept. We do this on the fly sometimes, folks. Hopefully we can make this work. We're going to try to land the eagle. It's always a bumpy ride from time to time, but I think he's coming in. There he is. Hey, Roland, how are you, buddy?

[Roland Martin]

I'm doing good. So first time actually doing sub stack.

[Jim Acosta]

So I love this.

[Roland Martin]

Are we vertical? Are we, are we horizontal?

[Jim Acosta]

You're vertical. You're vertical and, and you look perfect. I love the green screen behind you.

[Roland Martin]

Yes. I literally just finished. And normally. So to the sub stack people, I'm gonna need y'all to update y'all thing. Normally I do this stuff from a desktop. I got a nine foot green screen. I got my graphics here. You know, I got my logo.

[Jim Acosta]

We could have made this pretty. I know we could have. But this, this is gorilla style. This is a new world. We're doing this gritty, it's raw. Okay, Roland, how are you doing?

[Roland Martin]

Great. Crazy busy.

[Jim Acosta]

I know you are.

[Roland Martin]

Busy day. You know, book interviews. I'm getting ready. I got to go to Houston tomorrow to give a speech also. Tomorrow. Tomorrow's my dad's 78 birthday.

[Jim Acosta]

Wow.

[Roland Martin]

Throwing him a party on Saturday.

[Jim Acosta]

Congrats.

[Roland Martin]

And you know, I got my church golf tournament on Monday. So, you know, I got priorities you got priority.

[Jim Acosta]

Well, I'm glad you worked me in. I appreciate it. And I said I have on my list here if there's time we need to get to the NFL draft because I know you're a huge Houston Texans fan.

[Roland Martin]

Absolutely.

[Chris Whipple]

But.

[Roland Martin]

And thank God we're not drafting in the top five picks because we had a much better season.

[Jim Acosta]

Same with my commanders, which, as you know, is an even bigger miracle than the situation with the Houston Texans. But you're looking good. That's perfect. Yeah, set it right there. You're good to go. And I just started the show rolling. Talking about. And welcome to Substack, by the way. Everybody's happy to see you here, but.

[Roland Martin]

Literally this is my first time I had to download the app. So I want everybody to know this is my first time ever on Substack.

[Jim Acosta]

Well, and I want you to stay. I want you to keep doing this. And I think you're going to find, Roland, that, you know, the audience is very engaged. They're informed. They are. They're the kind of audience that you want, Roland. And I'm glad that you're here. I'm glad you're doing this. And why don't we talk about new media, independent media. You're very successful at this. And we'll get to the other political stuff in a second. Why are so many people coming to independent voices like yourself right now, do you think?

[Roland Martin]

Well, I think the mainstream media made the exact same mistake that Blockbuster made. They made the exact same mistake that Kodak made when it came to digital cameras. They weren't understanding where the public was going. In fact, this is very interesting. So in 2008. So I joined CNN in 2007, 2008, people may not remember this. They had me do a CNN radio show. And then what they did was they put a camera in the studio and they streamed me doing the radio show on CNN.com Wow. But then when they had the show, I think I was on like two hours. And then they would do a live hit with me with one of the shows while I was doing the radio show. So we were doing multimedia when the election was over. And this is the period when CNN was like, no, no opinion whatever.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah.

[Roland Martin]

They were trying to figure out a place for me. And I remember Susan Grant and others going to Jim and why is escaping me.

[Jim Acosta]

Walton, was it Walton?

[Roland Martin]

It's Jim Walton. Yep. And they were all talking about what they're going to do. And what they ended up doing was they ended up not moving forward with it. They ended up Actually, you know, getting rid of CNN radio, whatever, it was a missed opportunity.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah.

[Roland Martin]

Here's what the missed opportunity was. They could have continued with traditional news on Linear, but they could have created programming space for folk like me who were opinionated and then driven that to the website.

[Jim Acosta]

Yes.

[Roland Martin]

And what would have eventually then morphed into the podcasting. Now, the reason, even in 2008, I was already aware of the podcasting, because I launched the first black news source audio podcast in 2005. Wow. In the Chicago Defender, I launched the first black news source video podcast in 2006. Because when I was at a fellowship at Cal Berkeley, there was a guy who came in and who presented this platform called Odeo Ode on podcasting platforms. That guy was Evan Williams, co founder of Twitter.

[Jim Acosta]

Wow. I didn't know any of this. I. I mean, yeah, I was.

[Roland Martin]

When I was doing missed opportunity, when I was on the Times during the morning show, in my second contract, I was like, guys, I need y'all to allow my commentary to be podcast. No, no, no, no, no, no. Want people we got in the play. I said, nobody gives a shit about your player on your website. Yeah, they're downloading. This is 2011.

[Jim Acosta]

That's crazy. Sitting here.

[Roland Martin]

And I'm like, I need y'all to understand where the world is going.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah.

[Roland Martin]

People were looking me like I was crazy, and I was just like, y'all. I'm telling y'all. And then when social media comes along. Yeah, social media. And this is why we are now with independence, social media comes along. Social media was the first time that if you were on television or radio or a columnist, this was the first time you could connect directly with your audience. Before, they had to send you a letter, a postcard, they would call. But now you had access to your audience. And so the network. I remember when cnn, when I filled in for Campbell Brown, they wanted to create a cnn. Twitter counseling. Nope. Roland as Martin. I never would allow any place where I worked to create a social media account for me. Yeah, wanted. I wanted control of the data.

[Jim Acosta]

I remember they wanted me to be, I think, Jim Acosta, CNN for a while. And then a buddy of mine at Twitter reached out to me and said, you know, at Acosta is available. I said, I'll take. Had been on some frozen account or something. And I said, I'll take it. And there are a couple of colleagues who were like, who do you think you are? Madonna or Cher or. What's this one name thing? I was like, no, I don't think that But I kind of just like having my own name there. And I thought, there are a lot of acostas in the. In the world. I'll just take that one.

[Chris Whipple]

So.

[Roland Martin]

So it wasn't. So what happens is. So when you're not attuned to. To your industry and this. And this really is one of the greatest, greatest mistakes. I mean, I remember when I was at tv.

[Jim Acosta]

That's wild.

[Roland Martin]

I used to. I used to email Jeff Bukes because Jeff Bukes was pushing TV everywhere.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah, I remember that.

[Roland Martin]

I used to email him going, dude, I'm with you 100%. Because as a consumer, I hated that I was paying for cable, but I couldn't access it when I traveled. And I had a sling box.

[Jim Acosta]

Roland, I mean, you were ahead of your time, and that is why you're so busy now. That's why I see you're hosting live shows on. On X. You're hosting live shows just about anywhere you can do it. And it's, It's. It's amazing. And people have been coming to you for years to get your political commentary on stuff. And I'm just curious what you think about what's happening right now. I mean, I just.

[Roland Martin]

You're gonna love this one here, Jim. So when Covid hit. Yeah, everybody and mama was blowing it, blowing me up. Like, I'm like, matter of fact, I'm sitting here.

[Jim Acosta]

That's what happened.

[Roland Martin]

This is a perfect example.

[Jim Acosta]

That's interesting.

[Roland Martin]

This is a cam card. During this thing is $129. During COVID this sucker was selling for $1,000. Because this is how you connect your camera via HDMI to your computer. So I had. I was doing church seminars with denominations. I had entertainers and athletes. They're like, say, ro, I don't know what the hell I'm doing, what I need to buy. And so. And remember before COVID Oh, no, this is amazing. You had to go to a flash studio. You had to go into the studio. They were spending millions of dollars on car service. Covid changed the whole game. Skype, zoom teams, everything now for people like you and me. So now all of a sudden, it also equalizes it. Because, yeah, you're cnn. Yeah, you're msnbc. Yeah, you're fox, abc, NBC, cbs. But now I don't have to depend on you to now speak to my audience. And that is how the game changed.

[Jim Acosta]

And you changed it. I mean, you're definitely one of the game changers because you showed and you did this years ago. And I. It dawned on me and Hit me like a lightning bolt.

[Roland Martin]

2018.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. No, and. And I know when I decided to do this thing, I reached out to you, we talked for a while, and you said, jim, you can do this. And you were one of the people who. You.

[Roland Martin]

You.

[Jim Acosta]

You're the one who kind of got through to me. And I always respect.

[Roland Martin]

You were like, really? I'm like, jim, I'm telling you. And then you asked question everybody asked me, well, you know, can you actually make money doing it? Yeah.

[Jim Acosta]

Well, it's true. It's true. But, you know, the other thing, too, that I like about it is that you're talking. You're just talking directly to people. And I guess I didn't have that before. There was a big studio and there were guys in the studio. And I remember this back in the day, actually, you were.

[Roland Martin]

You were talking to him.

[Jim Acosta]

I. I know, I know.

[Roland Martin]

They couldn't talk back.

[Jim Acosta]

They couldn't talk back.

[Roland Martin]

They couldn't. They.

[Jim Acosta]

And actually, that's what I mean.

[Roland Martin]

When you were doing it, they were talking to you on Twitter. They were talking to you on social. But the problem is the way the shows are constructed. They weren't interactive. When I did my TV one show, dude, it blew them away. I had them install a HDMI connector under my seat, and we did the show out of NBC News Channel. And they were like, what the hell? What they didn't understand is I went to communications high school, Jack Case High School in Houston, Magnus School community.

[Jim Acosta]

Wow. Wow.

[Roland Martin]

So I learned behind the camera before I did in front of the camera. So I understood technical.

[Jim Acosta]

I understood that was smart.

[Roland Martin]

I mean, this is an HBR AU1 Sony camera blackmagic hit. So I understood that. So what happened was I had them install it, and I used to act. So in our business, you would want to pull up some. The control room producers in there, they pull it up. Hey, Jim, we have the screenshot of the tweet. So now you wait for them to pull up. Damn that. I pull up right there. I'm about to blow you away. You about to crack up laughing. Prince dies. The benefactor. The ninth anniversary of his.

[Jim Acosta]

I remember that. Yep.

[Roland Martin]

So we decide, okay, we're doing primetime special. We had never done one before. So we're in the studio. Something happened with the phone lines. They literally could not. They could not call out. I had like 30 celebrities lined up. If anybody think I'm lying, go to YouTube and you can see the special. It's actually happening. So they're freaking out because we got celebrities calling like, yo, what's up? So I did.

[Jim Acosta]

And you got everybody in your phone.

[Dr. Howard Zucker]

I know.

[Roland Martin]

Well, no, that was a hookup. Well, that was a hookup where I did my radio. A Tom Jonah hit.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah.

[Roland Martin]

And I got. Which was connected to the radio, to the audio room. I said, guys, don't worry about it. So if you pull the video up, you're going to see two iPads, two iPhones, and I'm calling the celebrities, and I plug the cable in, I interview them. When I hang up, I'm talking, I unplug it and I plug into the next one and I interview the next celebrity. That's how we did the show. Because, man, TV network, am I a hookup underneath. And they didn't. They never even saw that that may happen. But I understood that I could do what I do here, and I'm not dependent upon what they do. So I've always been completely autonomous. And if it happens immediately, I'm not waiting, relaying. You get it here. I can go, right?

[Jim Acosta]

Fantastic. Fantastic. And. And that's the beauty of it, you know, You. You found a way. You had. You had the desire, you had the motivation you had. You. You were. You were driven. You were driven to do this. And now when you speak to folks, what do they want to hear? What do they want to talk about? What are you hearing from people these days?

[Roland Martin]

What. What people want is. They want authenticity. They want honesty. They're tired of the traditional media bullshit. They're tired of a host playing by a set of rules and allowing people to lie. And this is no shade on anybody I work with at cpn. This is no shade on anybody. It's how the system is set up. There was nothing I hated more that you're on the air and you're talking, you're debating somebody, and they're lying.

[Jim Acosta]

Exactly.

[Roland Martin]

They are literally lying. And you're sitting there and you got to be cordial. You can't interrupt. And you're sitting there going, some bitch is lying. Are you going. You going. You going to stop the li. You going to stop the lie? Is anybody in?

[Jim Acosta]

You're giving me ptsd. But continue. Go ahead.

[Roland Martin]

Yeah, And I'm sitting there and I'm.

[Jim Acosta]

Like, he said lying.

[Roland Martin]

Then it goes to the next question you like, you know, and it's like, Then, like, well, we'll leave. We'll leave it there.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah.

[Roland Martin]

You mean, Omar, we had a really great discussion, and it's fire and it's honest. We gotta leave it there because we got some package. We gotta go to it's so true. Versus and I did this on TV1. I could be interviewing somebody and I know it's hot. I don't believe in stopping hot conversations.

[Jim Acosta]

I agree.

[Roland Martin]

So I'm back timing the show while you're talking. I'm looking at the clock. I'm back timing. I'm gonna give this six more minutes. I'm gonna cut this in segment three, second to four, and I'm gonna do this here. That's what made it interesting. That's the difference. Now, so with digital, if that conversation is hot and it's powerful and it's passionate, keep going. Hey, I know I mentioned at the top of the show we gonna do that thing tomorrow, but that's the difference. And so people want that they, they're tired of the, the scripted. It's so polished. It's everything. It's so. And you allow.

[Jim Acosta]

We have to give you both sides. Trump is acting like a dictator today. No, he's not. You know, okay, thanks for watching. You know, give me a break.

[Roland Martin]

And I can't. I don't watch it. I look, people ask me what shows you watch. I go, none of them. And they go, really? I'm saying I can't. Because if I'm sitting there watching and they start lying, I'm like, hey, he lying.

[Jim Acosta]

And the anchor has to, I mean, this is. And again, like you said, we're not throwing shade on anybody, but it's incumbent upon the anchor, if somebody is lying, to fact check the liar.

[Roland Martin]

You have to, we got to go ahead and go here. The problem is.

[Jim Acosta]

That doesn't always go over well.

[Roland Martin]

I'm not going to say most, I'm going to say a lot of the people who host shows are not smart. No, they do not have it here.

[Jim Acosta]

Or they're not doing their homework.

[Roland Martin]

That's my point. So they don't have it here. So they can't fact check the lie in real time because they are reliant on a producer, a researcher, an ap, a pa, as opposed to it's right here. And I never forget and I wish to all my CNN people, if y'all could go into the archives and give, send this to me by email. It'll be great. I'll never forget 2008 election, the night Obama wins South Carolina. Bill Bennett's on satellite, I'm in studio. And he goes, you know, Wolf, when, when, when Jesse Jackson won South Carolina, that was black history tonight. This is American history. I was like the. Did he just say, and I'll never forget, I'm gonna put this microphone on. I'll never forget, Bob was a floor manager. And I was sitting there. There's no lie. I was sitting there and I go, turn my microphone off. And Bob goes, hey, guys. Rolling. Trying to get in here. And so they come to me and I said, bill, I'm sorry, wait a minute. So Reverend Jackson ran 1988. And I started telling about this happened, this happened, this happened. And there are people who ran for sheriff and city council and mayor and got elected on his coattails. So then they go back to him, then he doubles down. Then I come back, I said, hold up, Bill. Wait a minute. I said, if Reverend Jackson run in 1988, I said, Donna Brazile never is Al Gore's campaign manager. I said, if Reverend Jackson doesn't run in 1988, Richard Shelby does not get elected United States Senator from Alabama as a Democrat. And he thanked him to Republican. I said, but lastly, I said, there was a little short white man in Minnesota who was the state director for Rev. Jackson's campaign, and we now know him as Senator Paul Wellstone. I said, don't you dare call that black history. Was American history. And that's when he was like. He was like, no mas. I'm good.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah.

[Roland Martin]

And Bob goes, you weren't even reading that stuff. You won't even looking down at your computer. And I said, bob, yeah, I got here, Jim, that's the problem.

[Jim Acosta]

That is it. Institutional knowledge is also part of it.

[Roland Martin]

Like you're saying, don't prepare to fact check in real time. And so the lie sits there and then they come back the next day. Well, yesterday we had so and so on, or in the last hour, dude, it's too late.

[Jim Acosta]

It's done. It's. We can't go back exactly in that moment. The viewers who are watching in that moment, they've been misled or they just didn't get the full picture. And we're hosed. We're screwed.

[Roland Martin]

That is what drives me absolutely crazy.

[Jim Acosta]

That's true, very true.

[Roland Martin]

They allowed the lies to spread. Sit there and it just, it just. It sits there like an ozone layer over a city, and it just suffocates the people. And then this is the last point. If you're watching and listening and a lie is told and you never hear a correction, you go, must be true, must be true.

[Jim Acosta]

There must be a point there. There must be a point there. And I mean, so. But when you talk to folks, I mean, what stories are you covering right now? What are you talking about, Pete? Hegseth and signal gate are you talking about?

[Roland Martin]

I don't.

[Jim Acosta]

Because. Are you talking about the El Salvador and Kilmar, who is El Salvador? Are you talking about layoffs?

[Roland Martin]

I'm talking about that in a different way. So the difference with me is I center African Americans. Sure, Africa. So I have people who are white, who are Latino, who are Asian. I got people who are gay, who are straight. I got people all who watch. But here's the point that I made. I center African Americans because there is not a single daily news show in America that centers African Americans. Now, the things that I talk about. So you take. Let's take El Salvador. So when I'm talking about that, in due process, I'm taking it back to black people. Having prosecutors with whole evidence. That's lack of due process. When Trump is talking about we're going to see in homegrown people, I'm saying, hey, black folks, he's talking about us. So I'm taking that story, but I'm making it black. When. When I hear you, when I hired people, when it was we were at TV1 or even now, and I get this, and I bought it from black journalists. A black journalist, and I've had people who work for me who are white, who are Latino, doesn't matter. But black Germans, I tell them, I need you to wake up black. They look at me like, the hell are you talking about? I am black. I said, no, no, no, no. I said, but you, I need you to wake up black. Hell, you. I said, wake up. Black means that when you see a story, you have to view the story through a black prism. So F18 fire jets fired on. Were they shooting? Who were they shooting at?

[Jim Acosta]

The Houthis.

[Roland Martin]

And I'm like, okay, yeah, what? What is that? I go, does my audience care about that? So I have to figure out for me what makes that interesting. My audience. So when everybody else is going apeshit over something Trump said that was crazy. I'm talking about him stopping the settlement that he called an illegal DEI settlement of the deal in Lowndes County, Alabama, where 9,800 homes had their yards and homes flooded with raw sewage because of lack of infrastructure. I'm focusing on that. I'm talking. I'm talking about the stories that aren't covered enough.

[Jim Acosta]

They're not. They're not covered. They're invisible.

[Roland Martin]

I'm talking about when he pulled out of the settlement in Texas, where HUD had two investigations. One deal on the HOA in Dallas that was targeting black people, and another one where the state of Texas did not provide a billion dollars in hurricane relief to Harris county, largely black and brown. And so I. So I'm looking at stuff like that. I'm looking at, how does this impact African Americans? And how can I take this and really begin to speak to this story? So in. There are many times I'm talking about stuff you're never going to hear. And here's what was crazy.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah.

[Roland Martin]

This happened my entire. Every time I've had since going on 2009, since my TV One show. And Jay Feldman, who was my old executive producer there, he would always go, dude, I saw this story in the Washington Post. You talked about that three weeks ago. I saw this story in New York Times. Mediaite, who I keep calling out Mediaite, who? Oh, whatever. Charlamagne says, Stephen A. Says. Megyn Kelly says they'll post. They do a story on Megyn Kelly calling out Kristi Noem playing dress up. And I go, hey, media, we hit that two weeks ago.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah.

[Roland Martin]

So what happens is a lot of mainstream media, they're late. It happened during COVID I'll never forget this here. Fauci's at the White House, and they get asked about asthma in Covid, and he begins to talk about the impact on African Americans. Now, here's what was crazy. After he did that, that's when Diddy announced he was launching a weekly black news show on his network. Revolt. That's when Oprah did this big old Covid special. You know why I was laughing when he was live? I had a doctor from Meharry, one of the two black medical schools in the country. We had brought that up a month earlier.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah, it happens. No, and you brought up something that I. I was not planning to ask you about, but I think maybe I should ask you about what. What do you make of the Stephen A. Smith thing where he's out there saying, I might run for president or something like that? Do you. I'm like, wait a minute. What?

[Roland Martin]

First of all, there's a phrase that's that bullshit. Okay, that's that. But I give zero thought. Zero thought. I don't waste one molecule or brain cell on that idea. But here's why that's even a conversation. And again, I'm going to blame mainstream media. Yeah, mainstream media it is. Mainstream media is the reason Trump is sitting in the Oval Office. Because mainstream media legitimized Trump. Mainstream media allowed him to lie. They allowed him to lie about a billionaire. They allowed him to come on the air. And I'm gonna tell you and I listen. I call names. I remember when I was in D.C. and they were promoting Trump doing a sit down interview with Wolf Blitzer, and I turned to Stephanie Koutubi, I said, why in a fuck are y'all talking to Trump? She goes, oh, Trump is on great ratings. I said, but it's bullshit, Stephanie. I said, if we're gonna. I said, y'all have got to stop being enamored with his plane and his lies.

[Jim Acosta]

Well, and the other thing that happened. Yeah, and I mean, the other thing that happened too, Roland, is. I mean, after he left the White House in disgrace, you know, that should have been it. That should have been it. In terms of the coverage of Donald Trump. That should have been. He should have been done. End of story. And yeah, Kevin McCarthy resuscitated and the Republican Party resuscitated. Mitch McConnell missed his chance to, you know, be done with him and so on. But the press continue. They could not give up the addiction.

[Roland Martin]

To Trump tv because again, media operates by. Great quote. I remember that was a city councilman in Fort Worth. Oh, I. I can remember his name. He was a great guy. He was a great guy. But he, but he gave you perfect quotes. And I mean, I'm talking. You call him. I got his picture about my. You call him my man give. He will give you. If you could. If you could strip the quote, boom, he would give it to you. So he was. I'd be like, quote mode, quote mode, quote mode. So what Trump does, we love. We love the train wreck. And so what now happens is like, I have. I'll do the podcast and they asked me about the rock and Stephen Curry rubbed the president. I was like, shut the hell. Yeah, stop it.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah.

[Roland Martin]

But what has happened now is we now are operating in this. Oh, we so and so is great. They could be president. No, they can't. And so we now.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah, you're right.

[Roland Martin]

And so we don't care about qualifications, about knowledge and perspective. Now it's like, oh, yeah, because remember this here first. The first 100 days, Biden's so boring.

[Jim Acosta]

I know. That was. That was such that I was like, boring can be good. You want the president to be boring. You want the White House to be boring.

[Roland Martin]

The Biden administration was humming what changed the Afghanistan pull out. I remember all the stories, competence things. Removing that change at all. We were so caught up in. Yeah, but he's boring because we are addicted to the train wreck. And that's why my deal is when Stephen A. Says, oh, on a debate stage I'm like, bruh, Stephen A. I guarantee, I can guarantee. I know Stephen A. I can call him, I can text him. If Stephen A. Smith is on a debate stage with Governor Wesmore, Governor Shapiro, Governor Whitmer, Governor Pritzker, he is going to be destroyed. All caps, boldface, italicized, underlined.

[Jim Acosta]

Roland, this is why I wanted to have you on.

[Roland Martin]

They're going to be talking policy. They're going to be talking policy and he is not going to be able to keep up. But we have got to stop legitimizing people who don't know what they're talking about. It ain't no different. Will Kane should have never, ever had been. He had no business being on espn. He didn't know what the hell he was talking about. So Will, on first take, across from Stephen A. Stephen A. Was like, why did lil boy sit here on this show? He was on the show because his agent Nick was the. Was Nick Khan represented big sports agents and he got him the job. Yeah, that's just being there.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah.

[Roland Martin]

That's why he got embarrassed the other day talking to the con, talking to.

[Jim Acosta]

Did not know what he was doing over on Fox.

[Roland Martin]

I never heard Trump say that. Yeah, he said it many times. Because you don't do research, Will.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah, Roland, let's keep doing this, man. This was. This was fantastic catching up.

[Roland Martin]

And I'll try to be a little bit more extrovert next time.

[Jim Acosta]

Next time. I don't want you to hold back next time. I just want you to.

[Roland Martin]

Next time I'll just, like, stow a little bit more of myself.

[Jim Acosta]

Roland is great to see you, my friend.

[Roland Martin]

So how does this work? Like, so when this is done, can you, like, watch the playback?

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah.

[Roland Martin]

Still see the comments too.

[Jim Acosta]

Exactly. I don't know if you'll see the comments, but it becomes like a recording and then you can watch it on your sub sack account and you can pump it out to your. Whatever stuff you want to put it.

[Roland Martin]

Out to so people make it. I love, I love, I love the interactive piece in the comments.

[Jim Acosta]

It's so much fun. It's so great. It's. I'm telling you, this is addictive. You're going to want to keep doing it.

[Roland Martin]

So substack. If y'all don't have that, like with YouTube. But my show is over. I can actually watch the show in real time and see all the comments.

[Jim Acosta]

Oh, interesting.

[Roland Martin]

I love that because it just. I love just to see how people respond to stuff.

[Jim Acosta]

Me too. Me too. Well, you're seeing all the hearts coming at you and all the comments. Rolling. Great to see my friend.

[Roland Martin]

So, folks, yeah, I just. My people just started my substack, so I don't know what the hell. I don't know where the hell to go. So y'all follow me. I'm rolling this morning, but most important, just go to my YouTube channel. We're this close to hitting 2 million subscribers.

[Chris Whipple]

Wow.

[Jim Acosta]

Invite me on. I'll come and do your show.

[Roland Martin]

Oh, it's not a problem. Yeah, you know, I don't. I don't need to have a staff meeting.

[Jim Acosta]

Good. I know you don't. That's pointless. Good to see you buddies. Take care. Thank you.

[Chris Whipple]

Roland, that was.

[Jim Acosta]

Roll it. The great Roland Martin. That was long overdue. I'm so happy that we were able to do that. I'm going to try to bring in. We got a couple more guests coming up. Howard Zucker, Dr. Howard Zucker is coming on the program. He's gonna. He's gonna be. It's gonna be tough to match the energy level of, of. Of Roland Martin, who is just absolutely fantastic. He was just terrific. I really appreciate everything Roland Martin had to say. And you know, what's wonderful about Roland is, you know, he just tells you what he thinks, and there. There is no censor. And. And that's what I love about the guy. And it. This was long overdue. And believe me when I say this, we're going to continue to do this. Let me just make sure I've got the right Howard Zucker here, because I want to make sure I do this correctly and I don't bring in some other Howard Zucker from some other place that I should be bringing him in from. Let's see. Here we go. I know that's right. It's tocology. It's the name of this podcast. Okay, so stand by. I'm going to bring in Dr. Howard Zucker. He is the former state health commissioner in New York. And the reason why I wanted to talk to Dr. Zucker is because, honestly, folks, the conversation that I had with Rosie O'Donnell yesterday absolutely opened my eyes to the issue of autism and families living with. Great to see you, Dr. Zucker. Thank you so much for being here.

[Dr. Howard Zucker]

Good to see you, too. Thank you for inviting me.

[Jim Acosta]

You're in so much trouble because there's no way you're going to be able to match Roland Martin's intensity. But Roland and I are old buddies, and I've been wanting to do that for some time.

[Dr. Howard Zucker]

I could hear him in the background.

[Jim Acosta]

It was a lot of fun. I had a bunch of questions prepared for him, but I got to ask none of them. But I do want to ask you a. About what's happening in public health. Sure. You were the New York State health commissioner during COVID I mean, you had a lot happen on your watch. But, I mean, there's so much happening right now in the public health space. Obviously, there's the leadership of RFK Jr. Over at HHS. It's everything that's happening there. We can talk about that. But what's been on my mind lately, and I think it helps, it neatly encapsulates the. The problem that we're experiencing right now as a country in that public health is just sort of all over the place. This measles outbreak in Texas, in west Texas, some 800 cases. Some of this appears to be happening because of vaccine denialism and vaccine skepticism. That has been promoted, of course, by RFK Jr. I guess. What have been your thoughts on that? Because that has scared. I mean, I'm seeing a Washington Post story today that says the United States faces millions of measle cases over the next 25 years, vaccination rates for the disease drop 10%. This is according to new research published today in the Journal of the American Medical Association. Scary stuff.

[Dr. Howard Zucker]

It is. It is very scary stuff. And the answer right up front is that vaccines save lives. And if you get your measles vaccine, save lives. But with that as a sort of a cover, I will say that the measles outbreak in Texas is extremely concerning. And when I was commissioner, I dealt with the measles outbreak in New York state. We had 1200 cases. We tackled it. I was concerned that the United States would lose its measles elimination status, which they're at risk of. Again. You have to have one year where you've gotten the outbreak under control. And the way to do it is to get into the community, get them vaccinated, work with the community, work with the doctors, work with the parents. And the community that we dealt with, which was Orthodox Hasidic Jewish community, dealt with the moms, spoke to the rabbis, and we got it under control. And I am concerned about this. There's two deaths. We haven't had a death from measles in over 20 years. And now we have two of them.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. And we just had a case the other day over by the White House. I mean, here in Washington, D.C. there was a fast food restaurant that apparently had a measles case. And it's very concerning. And your sense of just seeing RFK Jr. As the HHS secretary. I mean, I've said this on my show before. I was talking about this with Rosie O'Donnell a bit yesterday. It may, he may be the most stunning cabinet pick because he basically has no expertise in healthcare and public health. He's just somebody who has been sort of a conspiracy theorist. And Trump felt, I guess, that he had to pay him back for helping him during the campaign, and so he put him in there.

[Dr. Howard Zucker]

Well, I think one thing is having worked for a cabinet secretary, and I understand that that position often is a politically appointed position, but you do on extremely talented people around you. And you also want to trust the system. The HHS system, having spent four or five years there, there is incredible talent in the agencies, in cdc, NIHU people, they don't care which party is in power. Their passion is to make sure the science that they're working on is the best science that's out there. And so that's what you really need to be sure you have and you trust them. That's very important on the process.

[Jim Acosta]

And what do you make of the NIH collecting the private medical records of Americans for this new autism study? I mean, I was talking about this with Rosie O'Donnell yesterday, and you know, she's a, she's a very big advocate for kids with autism. She has a new documentary out about it and so on. But she, you know, she was very tough in her criticism of RFK Jr and HHS over this. I mean, is that even legal?

[Dr. Howard Zucker]

So I read about this and the autism is a very important issue. And in fact, I started this podcast, Docology, which last week I had a research expert who has been studying autism for 45 years. And we were talking about many of these different subjects. The issue with this is you want to be sure that you are protecting the privacy of all those people who have autism. And as you do these studies. And I know NIH said that they're going to make sure of that, but we need to be sure that happens. We need to be sure that they're protected. And we have been looking at this issue of autism for a long time. And in fact, I mentioned the secretary before. I remember when I was at hhs, we had a nonpartisan initiative. Secretary Thompson and I led it to look at autism, try to figure out what's causing and how to get more funding for it. And that goes back close to 20 years ago. So it's tough and we need to look at the environmental, but there's a lot of genetics to this, and there's some amazing studies that have been done. And the expert that I had on docology the other day was sharing some of that, which was. So I hope they do it correctly. It is important that the privacy of those individuals, those kids and adults, because they're adults with autism as well, is protected.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. But, you know, the issue to me is it seems that public health is under attack. And the very. And you were saying, you know, a lot of times the HHS secretary is a political appointee, but you need to have good people around those political appointees. But it seems that public health is under attack. Public health experts are under attack. For example, the New England Journal of Medicine has been apparently targeted by Trump's interim pick for U.S. attorney in Washington, D.C. ed Martin, who apparently fired off a letter to the New England Journal of Medicine, which is a well regarded. I mean, I mean, I was in News for 25 years. Right. There was a news for years and years. I can't tell you how many times we did stories about the New England Journal of Medicine, had a study about this published, and that it's one of those kind of bibles of public health that we respect and we need it in our lives. What's going on? Why would they go after them like this?

[Dr. Howard Zucker]

I hear you. And prosecutors have no place in scientific research. We'll start with that. And as a doctor and a lawyer, I can tell you I know the different worlds and there's a place for each profession and, and in medicine and public health and science, that should be left to the scientists and the experts. You know, I was looking. And so what's happening is that people, there is an effort to go and look at research and scientists and publications. And I am very concerned. In fact, again, going back to my doctology next week, Dr. Kathy DeAngelis, who was the editor in chief of JAMA, is gonna come on to talk about this exact issue.

[Jim Acosta]

Good.

[Dr. Howard Zucker]

And I was thinking about this because I was looking at the New England Journal and I was looking at the articles in here, and it is true that the lead article in the New England Journal from this week is a perspective piece. It says, withdrawal of the United States from the who, how President Trump is weakening public health. So that is the lead article, but it's not an article. It's a perspective piece. And there is a question like, are they biased? Well, then there are original articles. Those are scientific articles. And I can show you them. But you look, this is really in the weeds. And those scientific articles are peer reviewed. And I know Cause I have been a peer reviewer for these articles and I've submitted articles, they've been accepted in New England Journal, they've been accepted in jama, and it's tough. And a lot of times your article gets rejected, but at least you feel that the process was correct, that the overviewed it the correct way. And I get 10, 11 journals every month, medical journals. I can't read all of them, but I look through them and I look at the articles and I know when the science is coming out of things like the New England Journal JAMA or any of these major medical journals. Chest, which was the one they went after, which I also get sort of say that information is the science. We do not want to touch the process that science is being evaluated. So that's important.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. And I think part of this is because there's been a lot of fear, a lot of divisionism that has been whipped up on the right. You have podcasters out there, you know, who, who engage in this sort of bad faith commentary on the public health sector, and they try to accuse, you know, doctors in this space of, oh, it's about selling vaccines and it's about big pharma and they're on the take, they're on the, the payroll, blah, blah, blah. And I'm thinking to myself, why, what is it that. Why don't you trust doctors? Why don't you trust people in this, in this sector? I've talked to a number of people in public health. I have a lot of friends who are in public health, and they're just so scared right now that they can't do their very important work because of the way Trump and his minions have demonized them. And, you know, one of the questions that I ask is if you're in a car accident or you come down with a deadly disease and you have to go to the hospital, you have a choice. You're going to go to Joe Rogan's house, you're going to go to the hospital and be treated by a doctor. Which one are you going to choose? I know which one I'm going to choose. I'm going to go to the hospital.

[Dr. Howard Zucker]

I was on the phone with a couple friends about their one about their kid, one about themselves, literally within the last hour. And one of the people just texted me while I was on with you just now about. And I said, go to your doctor. They send you the emergency room. Here's what you need to do, A, B and C, and trust the system, trust the doctors to do the right thing. Don't look up on Google. Just there's a reason people go through all this training. There's a reason I went through all the educational process. So you have the knowledge. There's a reason why we read these journals.

[Jim Acosta]

That's right.

[Dr. Howard Zucker]

There's a reason why we do the recertification exams and all of that, to be up on top of the information. So I think it goes back to saying before about trust. And what has happened is there is a lack of trust in the public health system, but I think there's a lack of trust overall. I don't even think it's just about public health. I just think that there's a problem there. And I've thought a lot about that, and particularly from the pandemic. And part of it is the trust was starting to erode before the pandemic. And then I think what happened with the pandemic is people saw how the scientific process plays out in real time. So information came in and then they realized, well, we're making a change, we're adjusting, we have more data. And a lot of times people just want a black and white answer. And science like that. And when you start to see how it's the process, I think what ends up happening, people start to lose trust and that they should not do that because the system is a. Is a very good system.

[Jim Acosta]

It's built on trust, and you need to have trust. I mean, if you don't have trust, I mean, what are you going to do? You're not going to get on airplanes anymore because you don't trust the pilots and the cockpit. I mean, it's just, where does it end? But Dr. Zucker, I mean, let's keep talking because I want to keep the conversation going because public health, it's so important. This was on my mind after talking to Rosie O'Donnell yesterday, and I'm so glad that you're able to come on. Thank you so much.

[Dr. Howard Zucker]

Thank you. Thank you very much. Excellent.

[Jim Acosta]

All right, good to see you. All right, we'll do it again soon.

[Dr. Howard Zucker]

Hope people join the doctology podcast and we'll be able to get more people to hear more about these topics as well.

[Jim Acosta]

That's right. Check out Dr. Zucker's docology podcast wherever you get your podcast. Thanks. Thanks, doc.

[Dr. Howard Zucker]

Thank you very much. Appreciate it.

[Jim Acosta]

Good to see you.

[Dr. Howard Zucker]

You too.

[Jim Acosta]

All right, I'm going to bring in Chris Whipple, author extraordinaire. He has a brand new New York Times bestseller out, actually has been on the New York Times bestseller list. I think Two weeks in a row. Now I'm bringing in Chris Whipple to talk about that book, and it's going to be a very interesting discussion. Chris has been studying this stuff for a very long time. He's written a number of successful books. I've talked to him on my old show a number of times, and he is just absolutely a great resource on this kind of stuff. And, you know, one of the things that I like talking about is, you know, where we were during that 2024 campaign. And there's Chris Whipple right. Right now. Hey, Chris, great to see you.

[Chris Whipple]

Hey, good to be with you, Jim.

[Jim Acosta]

So I, you know, sometimes I, I'm going to blame everything on Roland Martin. I had Roland Martin on earlier, our old friend Roland Martin, and he was excited, and I just let him go off and, and we just had a great discussion. So we're a few minutes late getting to you, but we can talk as long as we want. This is substack. We do what we want here.

[Chris Whipple]

Okay?

[Jim Acosta]

It's called Independent Media. Good to be with you. But, Chris, you've got a new book, How Trump Beat Biden Harris and the Odds in Winning the Wildest Campaign in History, and it's a great book, and it's, I guess, second week in a row on the New York Times bestseller list. Chris, when you're watching what's taking place right now, the way Trump has come into office these first 100 days, I mean, you know, I don't know if this typifies things, but just today, you know, Trump has on his website, his Trump store website, Trump 2028 hats. I mean, you know, that's, you know, that, that shows you where they are in terms of their mindset in these next few years. You know, it is kind of disturbing. What's going on? Are you surprised that Donald Trump got reelected?

[Chris Whipple]

Well, first of all, thanks for having me. It just underlines the stakes, really, what my book is all about is how did we get here? And we all know, we all lived through it. We know it was the wildest campaign in history from having lived it. But behind closed doors, I think it's even wilder and stranger. And it really, as I say, just underlines how serious the stakes were. I mean, this was the political story of the century, Shakespearean in many ways, because of the twists and turns and betrayals and the stakes. And it ended in tragedy for Joe Biden and people who feel that Trump is an existential threat to democracy. And here we are. To answer your question specifically, I'm not terribly Surprised. Maybe people who thought Trump didn't mean what he said are surprised. I'm not surprised because I think that Trump is, I think there's this whole mythology around Trump that he had four years to think about exactly what he wanted to do, that he would come into office, you know, competent in a, in a way that he never was in his first term. I think Trump 2.0 is the same as Trump 1.0 in this, in this sense. It's policy chaos left and right. It's pretty much what we got in Trump 1.0, only perhaps magnified. What's different is that, you know, up to now, Susie Wiles was running a tighter ship in the White House. But, boy, you gotta wonder now.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah.

[Chris Whipple]

As she as, as it approaches 100 days.

[Jim Acosta]

Well, and I, and I know you've looked at the Chief of staff issue for many years. That's been sort of your stock and trade and expertise in many ways. And Susan Wiles, you know, it was, it was sold to the public that she's going to come, and they do this all the time with Donald Trump. She's going to come in, she's going to be the grown up in the room, she's going to keep the crazies out. And of course, the call is coming from inside the house, not terribly successful in that regard. And I do think that he is just unmanageable. And for example, today he's on Truth Social. He's talking about this new Fox poll that shows him at a worse place than any of his recent predecessors. And he's talking about, he's talking on Truth Social about Rupert Murdoch and how Rupert Murdoch had assured him that he was going to fix these Fox polls. I mean, this is what's going on in his head.

[Chris Whipple]

I know.

[Jim Acosta]

He can't control this stuff.

[Chris Whipple]

I know. Well, look, I do think that Susie Wiles has a certain kind of magic with Trump that none of her predecessors had, not Reince Priebus or John Kelly or Mulvaney or Meadows. I mean, she really, he trusts her. And again, I would have said a week ago that she was running a tighter ship than any of her predecessors and that that's a real difference. But, boy, the wheels seem to be coming off a bit right now, aren't they? I mean, when you've got Besant and Musk having shouting matches in the West Wing and Laura Loomers in the Oval, then you haven't got a gatekeeper.

[Jim Acosta]

No.

[Chris Whipple]

So by definition. Yeah, I've spoken to her a number of times since, since she took this job. The first phone call she made was to James A. Baker iii, the quintessential Reagan chief, who told her, congratulations, you got the worst blanking job in Washington.

[Jim Acosta]

Exactly.

[Chris Whipple]

Which he always says. But now you can multiply it by 50, as Reince Kiebus once told me. Yeah, so she's got. Nobody said it would be easy. She told me that she's pushed back or tried to on a number of occasions. She's had her rows with Elon Musk. She's won a few and lost a few. But as she puts it, when she and the president disagree, Ty goes to Trump.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah, well, and your book delves into a lot of the Biden stuff, and I do want to talk about that. But since you raised Elon Musk, I mean, we did get a sneak preview of coming attractions during the latter stage of the 2024 campaign, when Elon Musk would get on stage and we found out he was contribut all kinds of money to help Trump get elected. But I don't know if anybody was fully prepared for what was going to take place. When Elon Musk came in, from the strange arm salute thing that he did at the inauguration to the way he basically became kind of like a shadow president, a co president in running the government and running over the government. What did you make of all that? And did you get any kind of sense of that when you were writing the book? No.

[Chris Whipple]

I think this has been a surprise to everyone, including Susie Wise. I think nobody thought that Musk would have this outsized co president. I may be exaggerating it a little, but this outsized role, I mean, Nixon had Baby Rebozo, some people may, some listeners may remember, but nothing like this. And Wiles, I think, was surprised by it. And when, for example, he eviscerated USAID Musk, she told me she called him in, sat him down and said, wait a minute, these people are giving vaccines to kids in Africa. Really? Well, she tried.

[Jim Acosta]

She didn't have any sway over this. Elon Musk was more in charge than she was in the White House Chief of staff. That's kind of stunning.

[Chris Whipple]

That's pretty stunning. It wouldn't have been stunning at all. Trump 1.0 in the first four years. I mean, none of, none of Trump's chiefs of staff were empowered in any way.

[Jim Acosta]

That's a good point.

[Chris Whipple]

And I think, and I think Susie is more empowered than they were. I think she's had some influence and she's won some battles, but clearly not nearly enough.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. And I find, you know, a lot of what has gone on very disturbing. I mean, the way that, you know, he has gone after, gone on this campaign of revenge and retribution. He did foreshadow that. He did promise to do that during the campaign. But, you know, signing executive orders that specifically target people like Chris Krebs and Miles Taylor, you know, basically saying when he's talking about the case of the El Salvador and migrant Kilmar being sent down to El Salvador, well, maybe we'll go after the homegrowns and we can't have due process, you can't have trials for all of these migrants and so on. I mean, it is. Does this exceed what your expectations were in terms of what his threat would be to the country, to our democratic form of republic that we have here in this country, or your thoughts?

[Chris Whipple]

Nobody should be surprised that Donald Trump is trying to do what he said he would do. But let's also not forget that he's trying to do it and he's not often succeeding. You know, the court cases, the court cases are piling up high and he's being reversed on many occasions. And you could argue that he's, you know, he's defying the Supreme Court when it comes to the one case in El Salvador. But look, I think no one should be surprised by this. And it's stunning to me that there was all this revisionist history during the campaign and that people somehow thought that he knew what he was doing when it came to the economy.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Chris Whipple]

The tariff campaign has shown us just how, just how much he knows about the economy.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah, he's had to back down. I mean, he, you know, and this was something he was supremely confident about during the campaign. For anybody who, who feels like they're surprised by the tariff thing, you weren't paying attention to the 2024 campaign because he said it over and over. He said this more than just about anything else. Maybe revenge and retribution was first, tariffs were second. And it's been kind of stunning. And I covered him a long time, so I'm not surprised, but I am stunned by, humbled he has been and how he has had to back down on this tariff issue to basically bail out the markets and bail out at. A lot of his buddies on Wall street are people that try to be his buddies in this moment, I guess.

[Chris Whipple]

Now, listen, it's always a mistake, in my view. It's always a mistake to assume that Trump is playing some kind of four dimensional chess.

[Jim Acosta]

Exactly.

[Chris Whipple]

It's never the Case this is a guy who goes with his guts. The reason he was such an effective campaigner, a genius at campaigning, is because that's instinctive. And he had help from Susie Wiles and La Civita, Chris lacivita, who were very competent this time around. But I'll never forget Ken Duberstein, who was Ronald Reagan's last chief of staff, told me that there's a difference between campaigning and governing. Campaigning, you try to destroy your opponent. Governing, you try to make friends with your opponent. Donald Trump has never understood that. Never, never will. And we're seeing the results.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. No, he wants enemies because he sees them as his foil. Because a lot of this is just kind of recreating his reality TV show past. But, Chris, I want to ask you about the Biden campaign and the way it just imploded back in 2024. I know there are a lot of Democrats who don't want to go over that stuff. They see it as water under the bridges, village and the water going under the bridge. But you quoted Bill Daley at one point in your book. He was the chief of staff to President Obama and he was talking about Biden's performance during a St Patrick's Day event at the White House. And Biden appeared to be struggling at that event. You write in the book, and Daley says, if the president needed a script for a small gathering of Irish guys, how would he survive the rigors of the campaign? How are they letting this thing go on? This is crazy. And I guess you also quote Daly as saying every freaking one of them had no balls. It seems as though outsiders looking in saw the warning signs, but the people inside with him did not want to see the warning signs. Am I getting that right? Is that correct?

[Chris Whipple]

No, that's absolutely correct. And the book, that's really the mystery at the heart of the book is the extent to which Joe Biden's inner circle, really seasoned, savvy, veteran political operatives who are paid theoretically to be clear eyed about the presidency and about his prospects. They were all deluded. I mean, most of them, the real inner circle. And Daley is a fantastic character in the book because, as you know, he's a straight shooter, no filter. He tells you exactly what he thinks and he told them what he thought. And he, at one point, he went to Tom Donilon, the former national security advisor, I remember him, and brother of Mike Donilon, who is Biden's alter ego in his inner circle. And he. And he said, how are they letting this blanking thing go On. And Mike Donilon. I'm sorry, Tom Donilon said to Daly, you know, even. Not even my brother has sat down and had this conversation with Joe Biden. The conversation. And if. And if Mike Donilon never had that conversation, you can be sure that nobody did. I mean, those two. Those two were so close.

[Jim Acosta]

Wow. Yeah. And you recall Ron Klain from Biden debate prep, recalling. He didn't really understand what his argument was on inflation. I guess this was talking about Trump. He didn't really understand what his proposals had been. He had nothing to say about a second term other than to finish the job. It seemed like Ron Klain had some inkling of, okay, there's trouble here.

[Chris Whipple]

Well, yeah, and this is a stunning story. Ron Klain is a major character in the book, and it's really almost unfathomable. A very savvy, effective White House chief of staff for the first two years who's worked on innumerable campaigns, prepared eight presidential candidates count.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah, exactly.

[Chris Whipple]

Four debates.

[Jim Acosta]

This was his specialty. Yeah.

[Chris Whipple]

And he tells me the story, and you can't read it anywhere else, but Klain told me the whole story, day by day, hour by hour of this pretty disastrous debate prep at Camp David. I asked him, why did you send that guy out onto the stage against a street brawler like Donald Trump? And he said, it just wasn't politically feasible to cancel it, even though Klain knew that Biden was not ready for it. They couldn't cancel. Would have been an admission. The issue of the campaign at that point was Joe Biden's mental acuity. It would have been an admission of that. So they did, in effect, they threw a Hail Mary pass and somebody caught it and ran it all the way back, as we all know.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah, no question about that.

[Chris Whipple]

But let me just add to that. The thing that's so unfathomable, Please. About. About Ron Klain in this case, is that here he is, he's seen this. And not only that, but he's witnessed this disastrous debate in which it was clear to almost everyone except Biden's inner circle that it was lights out, game over. And yet, three weeks later, Ron Klain is fighting an internal battle behind closed doors to keep Joe Biden at the head of the ticket. He thinks. He thinks that, and he tells Joe Biden, look, you gotta meet with the progressives right now. Cancel that weekend at Rehoboth with Annie Leibowitz, who's going to take your picture. You got to meet with them right now, and you've Got to get them out on the White House lawn. And if you do that, you can save your presidency. It was, respectfully, because I have a lot of respect for Ron Klain. It was delusional.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. And the moral of the story is, and I see people commenting, why don't we talk about Trump's mental acute. I mean, that's all fair game. And I cover that a lot. All the time, he goofs up somebody when he. During the campaign, when he's talking about they're eating the cats and the dogs in Springfield, Ohio. I was like, that reminded me of the moment when he was telling Americans that they can inject disinfectants into their body to ward off Covid. I mean, this is. I mean, I don't want to go down that road, but absolutely, you can ask these same questions of Donald Trump, many of these same questions. But, Chris, I guess one of the other morals of the story of your book is that Democrats understood the stakes. They understood what the repercussions would be if Donald Trump got back in the White House. They understood how dangerous he was. And there was just a lack of willingness somewhere in the party apparatus. We don't. It's. It's difficult to pinpoint, to say, I'm sorry, Mr. President, the stakes are too high. You, you outlined this during the 2020 campaign. You said that the soul of America was on the line with Donald Trump. The soul of America was at stake. And they did not go back to the mission statement. They didn't go back to the origin story, it seems to me, in all of us.

[Chris Whipple]

Well, this is what, this is what Bill Daley meant when he told me that none of them had any blanking balls.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah.

[Chris Whipple]

What he was talking about was not just the inner circle around Biden, but the entire Democratic Party. And in particular, he was talking about Democratic leaders who didn't step up and challenge Biden for the nomination. That's what he meant, that they were, in effect, he was saying they were all cowards. And look, part of it. Part of it is that people were worried. I know Biden and his inner circle felt. They didn't think Kamala could win it. They didn't think she was.

[Jim Acosta]

I remember that. Yes.

[Chris Whipple]

So that was certainly part of it. But there was this, you know, again, I spoke to Leon Panetta about this, too, a guy I've known for a long time.

[Jim Acosta]

Great guy. Yeah.

[Chris Whipple]

And very wise and experienced. And Panetta felt that this was just a failure across the board from the inner circle that failed to sit him down. And Say, what the blank are you doing to the rest of the party leadership now? Now, Nancy Pelosi was a late convert to the push Biden Assad movement.

[Jim Acosta]

Interesting.

[Chris Whipple]

After the. After the 2022 midterms, she, along with most of the party leadership, sought he should run for reelection. They were deluded again by the unexpectedly strong results of that midterm when everybody thought they'd get shellacked and they didn't. That was part of the delusion here.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. Fascinating. Well, Chris, I really appreciate you sharing these insights from the book. It's called How Trump Beat Biden Harris and the Odds in the Wildest Campaign in History. I'll say the wildest campaign in history so far, because we don't know what's gonna happen in 2028 if Donald Trump decides, hey, you know what? I'm just gonna do it again and try to stop me. That's the thing I get worried about when they put these Trump 2028 hats out. And so I know people are gonna say, oh, he's trying to troll, and so on, but you have to wonder. Chris Whipple, thanks a lot. Really appreciate it. Good to see you.

[Chris Whipple]

Great to be with you. Thanks.

[Jim Acosta]

That was great stuff. Thank you, sir. Appreciate it. Thank you. All right, Chris looks like he could be the Chief of Staff to the President of the United States. Really appreciate that conversation. And listen, I see the comments. I hear what people are saying. You have to. But I come from this particular viewpoint. You have to understand what happened so it doesn't happen again. You have to fully comprehend and understand what happened so it doesn't happen again. And we can't do it by doing this. La la la, la, la. You know, what was that line from Starsky and Hutch with Vince Vaughn? Earmuffs. Earmuffs. No, we can't put the earmuffs on and just tune out what happened. And I get it, that people are like, hey, you know, I don't wanna. I don't wanna. You know, why are we talking about this? And, you know, you gotta understand what the deal is, and then maybe it won't happen again. But it's fascinating that Chris tells that story. I think people understand the stakes now. I think people understand the stakes now. When the President of the United States is talking about deporting homegrowns, when he is signing executive orders, going after individuals who have been critical of him, when he is trying to cow Volodymyr Zelensky into a peace deal that appears to very much not be in the interest of the Ukrainian People, that is almost certainly not in the interest of the Ukrainian people. I do want to leave you with this because I don't want anybody to say, why didn't you bring this up on your show? And there's so many things that we could say, why didn't you bring up on the show? Russia launched a massive missile attack. Washington Post. Russia launched a massive missile and drone attack on Kiev and other Ukrainian cities early Thursday, prompting a rare rebuke from Donald Trump, who called the deadly attack not necessary and very bad timing. You think so? You think so? Vladimir, stop. He wrote on Truth Social. Vladimir, stop. Should have been saying this a long time ago, Mr. President. You should have been telling Vladimir a long time ago that it was time to stop. What needs to stop is Trump blaming the Ukrainians for what has happened in Ukraine. Maybe Trump's eyes are being opened just a little bit, though I doubt it. He'll recalibrate. He'll find out that maybe the message was not received well in Kremlin. In the Kremlin. And he'll recalibrate and say something tomorrow to get back in the good graces of Vladimir Putin. Because as I've said on so many occasions, at every turn, at every turn he sides with Putin. At every turn, he sides with Russia. Vladimir, stop. That's all he has to say. It seems to me this peace deal, this peace process is a crock. The only person who can make it stop, and I guess Trump might be right a little bit on this, is Vladimir Putin. The war would end now if Russia would just stop and let Ukraine live in peace, let Ukraine live with its sovereignty intact. And we're now almost 100 days into this presidency and it is absolutely time for Russia to stop, but it is also time for Trump to stop. Stop with this BS peace process where Volodymyr Zelenskyy does not have a full seat at the table, where the Ukrainians do not have a full seat at the table every step of the way, in every discussion about the future of their country. And I'm going to try to spend some more time on that issue in the days ahead. Thanks, everybody, for joining me today. Really appreciate it. Really appreciate Roland Martin coming on. Oh, my goodness. I'm going to be thinking about that interview for some time. My thanks also to Dr. Howard Zucker and to Chris Whipple. Fascinating discussion on the 2024 campaign. I will. I will die on that hill that we need to keep talking about the 2024 campaign to fully understand what happens. So something like this does not happen again. In the meantime, thank you, everybody for watching. Still reporting from Washington, I'm Joe mcosta. Have a good evening. Take care.

[Roland Martin]

Bye.