Ruth Ben-Ghiat on Trump calling himself "King" and Glenn Kirschner on Kash Patel becoming new FBI Director

Summary

Summary of The Jim Acosta Show – Episode Featuring Ruth Ben-Ghiat and Glenn Kirschner

Release Date: February 21, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Jim Acosta Show, host Jim Acosta delves deep into the ramifications of Donald Trump’s second inauguration. Joined by Ruth Ben-Ghiat, an esteemed author and expert on authoritarianism, and Glenn Kirschner, a renowned law enforcement authority, the discussion navigates through Trump's portrayal as "King Trump," the controversial appointment of Kash Patel as FBI Director, and the broader implications for American democracy and law enforcement.

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"King Trump" and Russian Reactions

Jim Acosta Opens the Conversation
Timestamp: [00:00]

Jim Acosta introduces Ruth Ben-Ghiat and sets the stage by highlighting Trump’s recent social media portrayal as "King Trump." He contrasts this with the Russian perception of Trump under the guise of court jester imagery, emphasizing that Russian officials are not taking Trump’s new persona seriously.

Key Points:

• Trump's self-stylization as a monarch-like figure.
• Russian mockery and dismissal of Trump's rhetorical shifts.
• Dmitri Medvedev’s critique:

  "If you actually said this on social media, if you had told me just three months ago that these were the words of the US President, I would have laughed out loud." – Dmitri Medvedev ([00:50])

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Ruth Ben-Ghiat on Authoritarian Tactics and U.S. Policies

Discussing Authoritarian Overlaps
Timestamp: [01:57]

Ruth Ben-Ghiat articulates how Trump's administration mirrors authoritarian leaders and organized crime in its methods. She underscores the historical pattern of exploiting national resources for personal or political gain.

Key Points:

• Echoing Kremlin Talking Points:

  "But this isn't new that Trump is echoing Kremlin talking points. He's been doing this for some time." – Ruth Ben-Ghiat ([02:30])

• Ukraine's Mineral Exploitation:

  • Trump's administration's demand for "50% of Ukraine’s mineral deposits."
  • Comparison to historical plunder by dictators like Stalin and Hitler.

• Global Resource Grab:

  "We would like 50% of your minerals, which are worth trillions." – Ruth Ben-Ghiat ([04:15])

• Greenland Example:

  • Mike Pompeo’s 2019 statement on purchasing Greenland:

    "We welcome the melting of the Arctic because it will liberate the precious minerals. And we would like to buy Greenland, which was never for sale and still isn't." ([04:45])

Insights:

• Trump administration’s aggressive resource policies reflect authoritarian and criminal plundering tactics.
• Comparison to historical figures to emphasize the severity and pattern of exploitation.

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Implications for Ukraine and Global Resources

Economic Shakedown on Ukraine
Timestamp: [03:51]

Ben-Ghiat likens the Trump administration’s actions towards Ukraine to a shakedown, demanding substantial economic concessions in return for protection and support.

Key Points:

• Shakedown Tactics:

  "Basically, this is like the shakedown." – Ruth Ben-Ghiat ([04:00])

• Historical Context:

  • Ukraine’s strategic importance as the "breadbasket of Europe."

• Global Parallels:

  • Interest in regions like Greenland for their valuable mineral resources.

Insights:

• The administration’s policies are not isolated but part of a broader, systemic exploitation strategy.
• Emphasis on Ukraine’s historical and ongoing vulnerability to authoritarian and criminal exploitation.

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Transition to Law Enforcement: Appointment of Kash Patel as FBI Director

Jim Acosta Introduces Glenn Kirschner
Timestamp: [07:53]

Jim Acosta shifts the discussion to the legal realm by bringing in Glenn Kirschner to critique the Senate’s confirmation of Kash Patel as FBI Director, highlighting the lack of experienced, conservative-led law enforcement leadership under Trump’s administration.

Key Points:

• Appointment of Loyalists:

  "He is putting people in these kinds of places who are just going to do his bidding." – Jim Acosta ([07:53])

• Contrast with Previous Administrations:

  • Absence of seasoned leaders like General Mattis or Jeff Sessions.

Insights:

• Concerns over reduced institutional integrity with the appointment of politically loyal individuals lacking in independent law enforcement experience.

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Glenn Kirschner on Kash Patel’s Unfitness for FBI Director

Critical Analysis of Kash Patel
Timestamp: [10:36]

Glenn Kirschner provides a thorough critique of Kash Patel’s suitability for the role of FBI Director, outlining three major disqualifying factors:

1. Enemies List:

   "If there's one thing the Director of the FBI should not have, it's an enemies list. But he has one." – Glenn Kirschner ([11:49])

2. Credibility Issues:

   • Patel was deemed not credible in a court trial regarding Trump’s involvement in the January 6th insurrection.

   "That is the death knell to the career of an FBI agent, a detective, an investigator, an officer." – Glenn Kirschner ([12:00])

3. Invocation of the Fifth Amendment:

   • Patel’s use of the Fifth Amendment during a grand jury subpoena raises transparency concerns.

   "The only lawful basis a witness has to invoke the Fifth is if they believe their truthful testimony would tend to incriminate them." – Glenn Kirschner ([17:00])

Additional Concerns:

• Patel’s conspiracy-theory beliefs and ties to Russia and China.
• Potential conflict of interest and compromised integrity of the FBI.

Insights:

• Patel’s background and actions suggest a jeopardized FBI, potentially undermining its credibility and effectiveness.
• The appointment signals a troubling shift towards politicized leadership in critical law enforcement agencies.

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Potential Brain Drain and Corrosive Effects on Law Enforcement

Impact of Leadership on FBI Staff
Timestamp: [19:34]

Kirschner expresses grave concerns about the potential exodus of dedicated FBI agents and federal prosecutors who may resign to avoid complicity in corrupt practices, leading to a significant brain drain.

Key Points:

• Resignation of Federal Prosecutors:

  "People are being forced out of the Department of Justice... one after another." – Glenn Kirschner ([20:17])

• Corrosive Organizational Effects:

  • Punishing law enforcement officials for fulfilling their duties compromises institutional integrity.

Insights:

• A hollowing out of law enforcement agencies could severely impair the United States’ ability to uphold justice and public safety.
• The loss of experienced professionals diminishes the effectiveness and credibility of federal institutions.

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Public Opinion and Polling Trends

Changing Public Sentiment Towards Trump
Timestamp: [27:00]

Jim Acosta highlights recent polling data indicating a shift in public opinion against Trump’s administration, with increasing disapproval of his actions and overreach.

Key Points:

• Washington Post Ipsos Poll Findings:
  • "57% say he has exceeded his authority since taken office." ([27:00])
  • Only 43% support his actions, while 48% oppose.
  • Strong opposition outnumbers strong support by 37 to 27 percent.

Insights:

• Growing public scrutiny and resistance against perceived authoritarian overreach.
• Potential for increased political mobilization and opposition movements.

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Social Issues: Impact on Marginalized Communities

Case Study: Sam Norquist’s Tragic Death
Timestamp: [27:06]

Acosta discusses the heartbreaking case of Sam Norquist, a transgender man who was tortured and killed, linking it to broader issues of discrimination and political rhetoric against the LGBTQ+ community.

Key Points:

• Preventable Tragedy:

  "This person, Sam, just absolutely outrageous what happened." – Jim Acosta ([28:22])

• Link to Political Rhetoric:

  • Donald Trump’s campaign rhetoric exacerbates hostility towards marginalized groups.

Insights:

• Political discourse that fosters hate and discrimination has real, devastating consequences.
• Urgent need to defend human decency and protect vulnerable communities from political aggression.

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Closing Remarks and Future Topics

Looking Ahead: Interview with Senator Ron Wyden
Timestamp: [30:19]

Jim Acosta previews an upcoming interview with Senator Ron Wyden at the Edward Kennedy Institute, promising to discuss Wyden’s new book and other pertinent issues.

Final Thoughts:

• Emphasis on the importance of maintaining integrity within law enforcement and democratic institutions.
• Call to action for listeners to stay informed and engaged in resisting authoritarian tendencies.
• Encouragement to uphold the rule of law and defend democratic principles against growing challenges.

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Conclusion

This episode of The Jim Acosta Show serves as a critical examination of the deteriorating state of American democracy and law enforcement under Donald Trump’s second term. Through insightful discussions with Ruth Ben-Ghiat and Glenn Kirschner, Acosta highlights the dangers of authoritarianism, the corruption within federal institutions, and the urgent need for public vigilance and action to preserve democratic integrity and human decency.

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For more in-depth analysis and ongoing coverage, visit jimacosta.substack.com.

Transcript

[Jim Acosta]

Welcome, everybody, to the Jim Acosta Show. It is Thursday, February 20th. I believe this is now one month since Donald Trump was sworn in as president for his second term. As you can see on screen with me is Ruth Ben Guyot, the celebrated author, an expert on authoritarianism and dictatorship. I'm coming to you live from Boston today, and I've got an event at the Edward Kennedy Institute here in Boston tomorrow with Senator Ron Wyden. I'll talk about more as far as all that is concerned at the end of the program, but I want to just jump right into this because I have Ruth here and I got to let her go here in just a few minutes from now. But I wanted to start off with and Ruth, let's talk about this King Trump. I'm sure you saw how he put out this post on social media. The White House did as well, portraying him as a king. Well, guess what? Not to the Kremlin. It's more like court jester. It sounds like the Russians aren't buying it. The Russians are laughing at the U.S. after Donald Trump adopted Kremlin talking points and savaging Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky. Of course, Trump called Zelensky a dictator in response to the Ukrainian president taking issue with the man in the White House blaming Ukraine for the Russian invasion of their country. And Ruth, I don't know if you saw this piece in the New York Times, it was basically how the Russians couldn't be more pleased, they couldn't be more pleasantly surprised by what they're hearing from Donald Trump. And they got one quote in particular from Dmitri Medvedev, the former Russian president. I covered him back in the day when he was serving, and he said this to the New York Times, quote, if you actually said this on social media, if you had told me just three months ago that these were the words of the US President, I would have laughed out loud. And so, Ruth, there it is right there. The Russians, they're not buying this King Trump stuff. They're, they're laughing at him.

[Ruth Ben Guyot]

They've laughed at him before. They've had him on the, you know, the most extreme. Well, they haven't had him on, they've featured him on propaganda, you know, news shows depicting him as a kind of useful tool or useful fool. And I believe they also had featured naked or near naked photos of Melania. This was after the election or after the inauguration. So, I mean, you know, but, but this isn't new that, that Trump is echoing Kremlin talking points. He's been doing this for some time. So we also have to take what the Russians are saying now with a grain of salt. You always have to. Of course they are, yes, laughing at him, but they're also. And they, but it is true they're pleased because. But they shouldn't be surprised. I mean, he's been working, you know, in friendly relationships with Russians. We did have a certain investigation in America about that and about election interference. So this is not new, but it's certainly shocking many people to see in Saudi Arabia, you know, the kind of new MAGA administration just wanting to sell out Ukraine. And oh, by the way, we're going to take 50% of their mineral deposits, too.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. Can you talk about that, Ruth? Because, you know, Ukraine is known and it's becoming more well known that they have these rare earth mineral deposits there that are highly sought after around the world. And for the Trump administration, I mean, just sort of brazenly, I mean, I guess we should say, at least they were open about it, saying to the Ukrainians, well, we'll protect you if you hand over the cash.

[Ruth Ben Guyot]

Basically, this is like the shakedown. Right? And that's the methods. Right. We know. I have, I think I have a sentence in my book Strongman, that there's a lot of overlap between the methods of authoritarians and organized crime bosses. And so, but, you know, the idea is that in return for what America gave Ukraine, which I don't remember how many millions, but we would like 50% of your minerals, which are worth trillions. And the reason that Ukraine actually has always been competed over by dictators, because it used to be called the breadbasket of Europe. It's a very valuable country. And so you have these plunderers. In earlier times, it was Stalin and Hitler. And we know that Trump and company are plunderers. And so they're interested. That's why they're interested in Greenland too. Right. I have a quote in my book of Mike Pompeo when he was Secretary of State in 2019, and he said, yes, we welcome the melting of the Arctic because it will liberate the precious minerals. And we would like to buy Greenland, which was never for sale and still isn't for sale, still not for sale. So that's important for us to remember, given also what this new administration is doing with dirty energy immediately. You know, a lot of the first, the first days executive orders and where he even declared an energy emergency. So this is more plunder stuff that we have to watch out for.

[Jim Acosta]

And Ruth is the author of Strongmen. If you've not read this book. It's critical reading because you're going to understand a lot of what Ruth is talking about here in depth. And it's almost as though they're going to Ukraine and saying, it's a nice country you got here. It'd be a shame if something happened to it. I mean, it's literally like right out of an Al Capone, the Untouchables or something like that. And the other thing I wanted to get to Ruth is, I mean, this expectation on Trump's part that, well, if we just give. If we give Putin some of what he wants, then that'll satisfy him for a while. I mean, that just couldn't be more wrong. It couldn't be more misguided. And I suppose there are a couple of ways to interpret that. One is, well, you know, there are folks who say, well, he's just a Russian asset. He really can't. It's not like he's operating with good intentions here. But the other part of this is that it does fit into the category of being a useful fool. If he thinks that.

[Ruth Ben Guyot]

Yes, yeah, that definitely like this. Well, this is a misunderstanding that people have always had who appease autocrats, and they think if we give them what they want, they're gonna go away. Not understanding that when you give a bully, it's the bullying thing. When you give a bully something, they come back for more because they see you as weak. And this is how all autocrats, it doesn't matter if they're communist or right wing, they all have the similar mentality, which is also Trump's mentality. So I am always very sad to see, see this kind of that. We haven't really learned the lessons or of history or of watching who the people who are operating now in the world, they operate the same way.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah, yeah. And I know I have to let you go, so I do get into it. I'm going to talk about this with Glenn Kirschner, very important law enforcement expert. Also substack, just like Ruth, the New York celebrity reporting the Senate confirmed Cash Patel to be the FBI director. I'm sure you have some thoughts on that, because again, what we're seeing this time around with Trump 2.0, the second Trump administration, is he is putting people in these kinds of places who are just going to do his bidding. We're not seeing the General Mattis's, we're not seeing the General Kelly's, we're not seeing Jeff Sessions types who were very conservative, there's no question about it. But from time to time, put up some resistance. This is, this is somebody who's going to do whatever list and on and on.

[Ruth Ben Guyot]

Yeah, and I mean, in, in the case of Kash Patel, you know, we have somebody who believes conspiracy theories, who's not fact based, which is a disaster for, you know, an agency that depends on investigations based in empirical realities and good intelligence. This is also somebody who has ties to both Russia and China. And so it goes with, you know, this departure from Democratic internationalism, democratic protocols. Instead, you're going to have somebody who, a MAGA loyalist, loyal to Trump and has relations with America's adversaries, and that is the person who's heading the FBI. It's tragic.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. Well, Ruth, I know I have to let you go. I'm going to honor that. But I want to have you on again because one of the things I love about substack is the ability to go in depth with these types of subjects. And you're the perfect person to do that. But let's do it again soon. Ruth, thanks so much.

[Ruth Ben Guyot]

Thanks so much. Bye, everybody.

[Jim Acosta]

All right, good to see you. Bye.

[Ruth Ben Guyot]

Take care.

[Jim Acosta]

That was Ruth. She's always so great. And, you know, I apologize, everybody if, you know, this is just coming across as kind of a last minute thing. I'm going to be real honest with you. It is absolutely a last minute thing. I was supposed to be here in Boston a while back. I was supposed to be here about two hours ago. And so it's one of those things where I just have to, you know, just beg for your patience here because, you know, Ruth was so kind as to, as to, you know, be. Be available at the drop of a hat. And she's just so wonderful to do that. And so I'm grateful to her. And I'm going to try to bring in Glenn Kirschner down because the other thing, obviously we need to talk about. The New York Times reporting the Senate confirmed Cash Patel, a Trump loyalist with the history of attacking the FBI to oversee the bureau, on a 51 to 49 vote. Democrats had hoped to slow or stall the President's polarizing pick. This is, again, according to the New York Times, but ultimately persuaded just two Republicans to join them in voting against Cash Patel. I'm going to bring in Glenn Kirschner now. I mean, one of the things that we saw today, we saw Dick Durbin, the ranking Democrat on the Judiciary Committee, make an appeal, and obviously this fell on a lot of deaf ears, make an appeal to his fellow senators there on the Republican side to think critically about what they're doing because obviously there's Glenn right there. Glenn, great to see you.

[Glenn Kirschner]

Hey, Jim, good to see you. Let me get this thing mounted.

[Ruth Ben Guyot]

There we go.

[Jim Acosta]

However you want to do it. Yeah, you do you. I mean, I see. The thing I like about the sub stack thing, Glenn, is it's kind of guerrilla style. And I've been talking about this on my show. The folks over at media love the folks of media. They refer to my program as no frills. And I'm the first to admit that it is. I'm working on getting some frills. We're just not there yet. But it's going to come in time. But one of the things I love about this platform and I was just having this discussion with Ruth is the ability to get into these meaty, weighty subjects and spend some time on them. And I know, Glenn, you just recently ramped up your presence on Substack and so it's terrific to see you here. I saw you on YouTube. You're blowing up. You're everywhere. But the main thing about you, Glenn, that I really love is that you really call them like you see them and you care very much about the institution of our judicial system in this country, our law enforcement community, our federal law enforcement community. And I just have to get your take. I just read the headline, Cash Patel, the new FBI director. Your thoughts? I mean, I really thought this was one of those nominations that would go down, that it would not happen. And it happened.

[Glenn Kirschner]

Yeah. Only two Republicans decided they cared more about their constituents, the safety of America and the prestige of the FBI. And the rest of the Republicans just sort of lay down and let Donald Trump walk all over them. And you know, being a gutter kid from Jersey, I'm a no frills guy myself. So I have been enjoying the new experience here, the substack live. Really enjoying it. So, yeah, the FBI thing is such a problem because, you know, I worked with the good men and women of the FBI, you know, for years and years and years. I was a career federal prosecutor. I handled rico cases in D.C. with the FBI being the lead agency. And when they are now going to be led by somebody who is entirely ill suited to be the head of the FBI. And I've been talking about three data points that lead me to the conclusion that he is ill suited. That's putting it mildly. One, the man has an enemies list, a deep state list of people who have done Donald Trump wrong, done him wrong, and he wants to get after those people he calls It a deep state list. I think the Washington Post accurately characterized it as an enemies list. If there's one thing the Director of the FBI should not have, it's an enemies list. But he has one. The second data point is that this may not be intuitive to people if they're not sort of immersed in the criminal justice system. But when Kash Patel testified as a witness in the Colorado trial to determine whether Donald Trump did in fact engage in insurrection, the judge concluded Cash Patel was not credible. People may not know. That is the death knell to the career of an FBI agent, a detective, an investigator, an officer. Why? Because at the D.C. u.S. Attorney's office, we have what's called the Lewis List. This is not a secret. It's not inside information. And what we do, anytime there's an adverse finding by a judge about the credibility of an FBI agent or any other law enforcement officer, the name goes on the Lewis list. And guess what? That person can't testify. Can you imagine the cross examination of Cash Patel? Wait a minute, sir. You were found not to be a credible witness in another proceeding, one, the jury would laugh Cash Patel out of court, and there would be what we call blowback of the stink on the prosecutor for putting on the witness stand, for sponsoring the testimony of a not credible witness. He's going to be supervising the men and women of the FBI, the special agents who are going to go into court every dang day, testifying, and he's disqualified from even hitting the stand. And data point number three, Jim, is when he was subpoenaed to the grand jury in Washington D.C. to testify about all things January 6, the suspected crimes of Donald Trump included. He pled the fifth. He invoked his Fifth Amendment right against self incrimination. Our viewers should know the only lawful basis a witness has to invoke the Fifth is if they believe their truthful testimony would tend to incriminate them, expose a crime they committed. You know that. Again, that's the third disqualifying data point. Of course, he was ultimately immunized by Jack Smith and was compelled to testify, but he really wouldn't tell us what he testified about when he was in his confirmation hearing before the Senate. This man is disqualified three times over. And I fear for the men and women of the FBI. I fear for the American people, and I fear for, for our allies around the globe who will now know that our premier law enforcement organization is headed up by this character.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. And Glenn, I mean, we should note for the folks out there who don't understand this Correct me if I'm wrong. You're a former federal prosecutor with 30 years of experience. And so when you talk about something from the perspective of, you know, if this person isn't a credible witness, how can he be a credible FBI director? I think that's, that's right on the money. And so when he, I mean, it was reported, and I think some of these Republican senators came out and said that he came behind closed doors with us, he reassured us about some of these enemies list issues and so on. You're not buying that?

[Glenn Kirschner]

No, no, I'm not buying it. And plus, he's an election denier. He couldn't even bring himself to say Joe Biden won the election. You know, if you can't be candid about who won a presidential election, you probably ought not be given the reins of power at the FBI. And let's add some of the more frivolous things that I think reflect poorly on him. He said, I'm going to walk in to FBI headquarters, shut it down on day one, and reopen it on day two as a museum of the deep state. This is insane.

[Jim Acosta]

What does that even mean? I don't even know what that means. You know?

[Glenn Kirschner]

You know, listen, he was trying to get clicks and he was on, you know, but, but still, it, he does not have the kind of temperament, the kind of judgment.

[Jim Acosta]

Right.

[Glenn Kirschner]

That it takes to be director of the fa, FBI. Here's the point of light, Jim, because what I do every day is I try to find the points of light amidst the Trump induced darkness, because it's dark and it's going to get darker before it gets lighter. One of the points of light I could find in this legal development of Cash Patel being confirmed, I have to admit, I had to close one eye, squint with the other and turn like this to find that very faint point of life. It's that good men and women of the FBI will not, in my opinion and experience, obey unlawful directives from an FBI director. If he says, go after Donald Trump's enemies and there is no adequate predication. That's a fancy term for enough evidence to lawfully open a criminal probe, I don't believe they're going to do it. They take their oath of loyalty to the rule of law and the Constitution deadly seriously. So I think Cash Patel has a very tough row to hoe ahead of him unless he straightens up, flies right, and obeys the law and the Constitution.

[Jim Acosta]

Gosh, I hope you're right about that, Glenn, because that, that's what worries Me more than anything. And we've seen instances of this, you know, over the last several weeks since Trump came into office. You have the situation at the Justice Department where it was being reported that apparently a list was being put together of FBI agents, names, people who had worked on the January 6th case, people who have worked on the case, the criminal cases pertaining to Donald Trump. And that, to me, smells of an authoritarian regime. That is the kind of stuff that goes on in autocratic nations. We don't round up the names of FBI agents because of the cases that they worked on. These are professionals. And as I've said time and again, you know, to not investigate what took place on January 6th or leading up to January 6th would be law enforcement malpractice. Of course you would investigate that. Crimes were committed right in front of our very eyes. And so I just wonder if there's a chilling effect already going on inside the FBI. And Glenn, not to ask a multiple part question, might it result in a brain drain? Might it result in people leaving the agency? And then you might be left with folks who, who are willing to bend the rules that it's so hard because.

[Glenn Kirschner]

People are being forced out of. The Department of Justice, the U.S. attorney's office in D.C. which took the lead in prosecuting the January six cases. That's my former office. And it was many of my friends, my colleagues, my trial partners who were heading up the January six prosecutions. And you're having a similar potential brain drain at the FBI. And let me just talk about it. Generally, when it comes to federal law enforcement, whether FBI or federal prosecutors, imagine this. You not only have evidence crimes were committed, but you saw them with your own eyes on January 6th. We all saw those crimes at the Capitol. You were then assigned by your supervisor.

[Jim Acosta]

Exactly.

[Glenn Kirschner]

To investigate, indict and prosecute. Righteous doing their jobs, provided there's enough evidence to support the indictment and the prosecution. And then you're going to be punished for it. You're going to be investigated for doing a job you were required to do because it was an assignment from your supervisors. Talk about corrosive to a law enforcement organization, you know, going about it like that, punishing people for doing their job in accordance with the facts, the law and the Constitution. This is governmental insanity. My hope, I don't know that I would call this a point of light, but my hope is that the incompetence and outright imbecility of so many of the people that Donald Trump is surrounding himself with will cause all of this to eventually come tumbling down in what form, I don't know. But. But this is as bad and as dark as it gets. Not just for the people of law enforcement who are being pushed out, but for the safety of the American people. And there are a lot of people who say, wait a minute, all of these federal prosecutors are resigning. Shouldn't they not obey in advance? Shouldn't they stand strong? Because then they're going to be replaced by sycophants and lap dogs and flunkies.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah.

[Glenn Kirschner]

And I say that is a very difficult proposition, and everybody has to make that decision for themselves. But here's what I say. I am not going to criticize somebody for saying, I am offering my righteous resignation because I will not violate my loyalty to the rule of law or the Constitution. Because if they don't do that, Jim, you know what? In the next breath, they get fired. So the hollowing out will happen one way or another. And if they get fired, they have to spend the next year or two in court fighting a wrongful termination. I don't wish that upon anybody. These are intensely personal decisions. I think a righteous resignation is as valuable to the rule of law and the health of our democracy as just standing by and being fired rather than resigning.

[Jim Acosta]

That's right. And people in law enforcement need to be left alone to do their work. And the other problem that you have to worry about is whether or not it takes our eye off the ball. You know, if you've got FBI agents worried about wrongful terminations, worried about saving their jobs, worried about what they're going to do, can they afford to resign, what's going to happen with the mortgage and the kids in school and so on, I have to think, mentally, that takes your eye off the ball when it comes to investigating crimes, when it comes to preventing horrible things from happening in this country. And the other thing I have to ask you about, Glenn, is the situation in New York, because this, to me, is Exhibit B. The January 6th case, 6 case would be Exhibit A. This would be Exhibit B. This apparent quid pro quo where Mayor Adams of New York is going to get let off the hook in exchange for, or potentially be let off the hook in exchange for helping the Trump administration carry out these mass deportations. Again, you know, not to quote Zoolander, but I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here, you know, that just also feels like crookery, corruption.

[Glenn Kirschner]

Yeah. It's Emil Beauvais, who is presently the acting Deputy Attorney general, the number two at the Department of Justice, one of Donald Trump's former criminal defense attorneys has been strong arming prosecutors kind of up and down the eastern seaboard, up in New York, down in D.C. and they are resigning one after another. I think a total of eight at this point. Rather than involve themselves in a corrupt dismissal of a criminal case. When you say it's a quid pro quo, we can use Bove's own words to prove it was a quid pro quo. Because, you know, he sent Danielle Sassoon a letter and, and, and he said, among other things, I'm ordering you to dismiss Mayor Adams case. Not because there's a problem with the facts or the law supporting the prosecution, you know, leading us to the logical conclusion that we can prove this case beyond a reasonable doubt, but because we want him to be in a position to help Donald Trump with some of his political priorities, like immigration. Jim, what I just described is not only a quid pro quo. It is very likely bribery. Why do I say that? Bribery is using your official position, including as a prosecutor, to extract a thing of personal gain or gain to your boss. That is what they are doing with, with Eric Adams in New York. Listen, Donald Trump could have pardoned Eric Adams. That would have put an end to it. But instead, they dismissed, they want to dismiss the case without prejudice, meaning they're going to hold it over. Eric Adams had to make sure he does exactly what Donald Trump wants him to do. And let me just, let me just take down this red herring that we heard Bove spit out in court yesterday. He said, well, well, wait a minute. It's because Eric Adams can't get a security clearance and help us on our immigration task force. And so that's why we're dismissing the case. Well, let's, let's take that on. First of all, the fact that you dismissed it without prejudice and you're still hanging it over his head.

[Jim Acosta]

Right.

[Glenn Kirschner]

Not cure up the little security clearance problem. Arguably, it exacerbates Bates it. Because now he's beholden to you. But I think even more fundamentally, remember when Jared Kushner in the first Trump go round had trouble getting a security clearance, and yet it looks like that matter cleared itself up. Donald Trump could simply arrange to have Eric Adams get a security clearance. So these, these arguments, I believe, hurt Bove more than they helped them because it looked like he was offering specious garbage to Judge Ho. And I look forward to see what Judge Ho does moving forward.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. And to me, this gets to, and I wonder what your take is on all this. It gets to the American way of life because to me, you know, you and I are roughly in the same generation, age group and so on. We grew up in an America where you didn't have to worry about this kind of nonsense going on, this kind of, look, what looks like outright corruption going on, a corrupting of our judicial system, a corrupting of our law enforcement system in this country. And that can have consequences. And if you look around, I've traveled all around the world covering presidents and so on. You want to go to these countries and see how they live, where the cops are told where to go based on, you know, are the opponents of the people who are in power and so on. My dad came from Cuba. You don't want. We don't want to live in a world like that. We don't want to live in a place like that.

[Glenn Kirschner]

Yeah. And a robust rule of law that is fair and that people respect is actually perhaps the most important ingredient to a viable democracy. Not just a healthy democracy, but a viable democracy. Not just because I'm a rule of law guy all my life, but without the rule of law, democracy cannot survive. And Donald Trump and company are chipping away every day at the rule of law. And, you know, I don't know how this will resolve itself. I am an optimist, and I have to believe that eventually we will be able to right the American ship and get back on track. I don't know how long, I don't know how hard, I don't know how much pain and damage we will experience before we write the American ship. But without the rule of law, we're done. This is a real point of light, though, on the rule of law front, the federal judiciary. I'm going to set aside the Supreme Court for a minute because people are always saying, but the Supreme Court. I'm with you.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah.

[Glenn Kirschner]

The federal bench, particularly the federal district court judges in Washington, D.C. who will be catching the lion's share of the cases, are ready to stand strong, be a firewall, be a bulwark. These are men and women of integrity who abide by the rule of law. I am not looking forward to seeing the first vindictive, faceless prosecution brought by Donald Trump's Department of Justice, because I don't wish that on anybody. But I do look forward to watching federal court judges. If it is a vindictive, improper evidence, free prosecution, cramming it down the throats of the prosecutors and of Donald Trump's Department of Justice because they will not put up with vindictive prosecutions.

[Jim Acosta]

If, if the Supreme. I mean, because Trump now looks at The Supreme Court as his get out of jail free card. They've given him presidential immunity. And that, that's the thing I worry about is, yes, lots of federal judges will stand in the way and say, you know, hey, get out of here with this stuff.

[Glenn Kirschner]

Yeah.

[Jim Acosta]

But if it gets appealed up to the Supreme Court, Trump has played this system like a fiddle. That's, that's what I worry about.

[Glenn Kirschner]

Yeah, the absolute immunity. I always quote our, one of our preeminent constitutional scholars, Yale Professor Akhil Reed Amar, who said what the Supreme Court did in the presidential immunity case was that they ruled the Constitution is unconstitutional. The problem, Jim, is there is no appeal from a Supreme Court that abuses its judicial discretion. You know, taking on reform, you know, cleaning out the rot at the top and taking on that reform is difficult. I hope someday we get there because if we don't, you know, we're going to be on, you know, this treadmill of illegality, unconstitutionality with no remedy. And again, that, that takes us to a very dark place.

[Jim Acosta]

It does. Well, we're going to look for those, those points of light, those rays of light that you mentioned earlier. Glenn, thanks for being one of those yourself. Appreciate everything you bring to the table. And so great we got to have this conversation. It's so good to talk to you. Hope we can keep the conversation going.

[Glenn Kirschner]

Yeah. Great being with you, Jim. Thank you.

[Jim Acosta]

Something tells. We'll have a lot to talk about. All right. Glenn Kirschner, thank you very much. Really appreciate it. You know, what I love about Glenn is, you know, he's like the old Pac man game at the arcade. Just put quarters in them and let them go. And Glenn just really knocked it out of the park there, laying it all out very clearly, very succinctly in ways that we can all understand and not sugarcoating it. Folks, there are things to worry about here. And Glenn was saying, well, you know, I don't know how this all ends. I do think we got an early indication as to how some of this may start winding itself down, and it's going to take some time. I'm not going to lead you down the primrose path here, but the Washington Post indicating today that the polling coming in for Donald Trump is starting to move in the wrong direction for him. There were folks making a great deal of hay out of the CBS poll from a couple of weeks ago and so on. Washington Post has a poll, Washington Post, Ipsos poll reviews from Americans are mixed to negative on many of Donald Trump's specific initiatives. And 57% say he has exceeded his authority since taken office. 57% say he has exceeded his authority since taking office. That is according to a Washington Post Ipsos poll. Overall, 43% of Americans say they support what the President has done during his first month in office. 48% are saying the opposite. Those who strongly oppose outnumber those who strongly support by 37 to 27%. So does a poll get us out of the situation that we're in right now? Does a poll make wave of magic wand and make all of these troubling questions go away? Of course not. But what it does say is that people are starting to pay attention. People are starting to read in, get re engaged. We saw what took place after the election. A lot of the folks who are watching this program right now, weighing in with their comments. I appreciate that very much. By the way, a lot of folks went for a walk after the election and said, you know what? I'm not tuning in. I'm not reading. I don't want any part of this. Perfectly understandable. There were times when I did that myself, and I'm a news guy. But what we're starting to see, and you're starting to see these protests cropping up at state capitals, major cities around the country, of course, in Washington, D.C. as well, you're starting to see people come out of the woodwork and say, no, I don't think so. And when the polling and I, and I, I get it, there's somebody making the comment right now, I don't believe in polls. I'm. I hear you, I hear you. But having covered politics for the better part of the last 25 years, I do believe in looking at a number of polls, a battery of polls, and looking at trend lines in those numbers. And what I'm going to be curious about, apparently there's a Quinnipiac poll. Steve Kornacki was tweeting about this. I think yesterday or the day before the latest polling is starting to show that folks are saying, no, this is way over the top. This is overreach on steroids. And I think, I think we're going to see more of that in the days to come. I don't want to overread it, obviously. I don't want folks to say, oh, Jim, you and the polls and so on. I get it. One other story I want to leave you with. And then I'm going to close it up with some final thoughts. This is from NBC News. The mother of a Minnesota transgender man who was tortured and killed in upstate New York suggested that his death was preventable if local authorities had, quote, done their jobs. Five people were charged and arrested for murder in connection with the death of the man, Sam Norquist. On Saturday, police said in a statement that same day, they found evidence suggesting Norquist was subjected to ongoing physical abuse between December 24 and February of 25. I bring up this story because I saw this in the news the other day. It is absolutely horrific, just like that person just said here in the comments. And I wanted to make sure that I got it on the show at some point this week. This goes to the comments that I was having, that I was talking about with Joaquin Castro yesterday with respect to the 11 year old girl, Jocelyn, in Texas, who committed suicide, according to reports, because of the bullying that was going on in her school about her parents immigrant status. One of the other things that we have seen in the news, obviously, and in the political discourse and the Trump campaign did this time and again during the 2024 campaign, beating up on transgender people, beating up on the LGBTQ+ community. This kind of politics where you inject hatred and toxicity into the political bloodstream has consequences. And one of the things that we have to be careful of in this country, and I talked about this yesterday, going to talk about it again here in the final thoughts, is we cannot get to a point where we start to look at our fellow human beings as being less human than ourselves. You can't, you cannot do that. No matter who that person is, no matter what that walk of life is, no matter what experience they're coming from, and the hatred and the abuse and the bigotry directed at the transgender community, it's got to stop. It's absolutely outrageous. And there's a lot of, there are a lot of politicians out there putting their finger in the wind on these kinds of hot button issues. And they're going like a weather vane which way the wind blows. Folks, we need to hold firm in our defense of humanity, in our defense of human decency. I make that appeal to you as, as your fellow American, as your friend who's, as somebody who likes to come to you every day and talk about these issues. Please spend some time and think about this. This person, Sam, just absolutely outrageous what happened. And I look forward in the days to come to bringing updates from that case as well. The other thing, last thing I want to talk about, I'm here in Boston because tomorrow I'm going to be at the Edward Kennedy Institute for a live interview with Senator Ron Wyden, who has a book coming out. I'LL be talking about that tomorrow. I am hopeful, hopeful, hopeful if the technical gods are with me to take that interview because the Kennedy Institute folks said I could do this, take that interview and put it on as my show for tomorrow. Senator Wyden is always interesting to talk to, sometimes make some news. He's got a very important book coming out. We're going to talk about all that tomorrow. That is going to be essentially the Jim Acosta show for Friday. So I hope you'll watch that, enjoy it. It won't be, I don't think it's going to be live. I think it's gonna be recorded and then we'll put it on the sub stack later. I hope I can figure out that and make that work. So that's, that's my assignment for tomorrow. The last thing I want to say is a shout out to my friend Mark Hamill, AKA Luke Skywalker of Star Wars. Mark was apparently on the Smartless program, which is a very cool program, has more frills than the Jim Acosta show, but we're working on it and apparently mentioned how I was on the air one time and did my Yoda impression for him. And so I was very tickled that I got a shout out for Mark Hamill. I've interviewed him a couple of times. He's just the best. And I'm gonna, it's a reminder that I really want to try to get him on this program and hopefully bring that to you in the coming weeks. And hopefully Mark doesn't see this and think that I'm pressuring him, because I'm not. It's just I would love to do that. And somebody is asking right now, can you get Mark Hamill on with you? I would love to do that. I've had him on before. So the pressure campaign has begun. I'm going to, I'm going to do my best to get them on. And I do love the smart list guys as well. Absolutely. They're terrific. But in the meantime, until tomorrow, hopefully from Boston, hopefully I'll make this work. Hopefully I'll get the technical stuff right. And until then, we'll talk. We'll talk tomorrow. Still reporting tonight from Boston, I'm Jim Acosta. Without Duke, I don't have Duke with me. He didn't make the trip. And I'll see you tomorrow, hopefully from Boston as well. Have a good night, everybody. Take care.