← The Jim Acosta Show
The Jim Acosta Show
Sean Penn and Congressman Eric Swalwell discuss the powerful new film, "Words of War" from Rolling Pictures about the murder of a Russian journalist.
00:57:14
Loading summary
Transcript118 lines
- [00:16]
Jim Acosta
All right, welcome, everybody, to the Jim Acosta Thursday, and we have a special treat for all of you. It's very much tied to the courageous fight for freedom against Russian aggression. I will be joined by Hollywood legend Sean Penn. He is the executive producer of the powerful new film Words of War, which tells the story of Anna Politzkovkaya, who reported on the war in Chechnya and was a fierce critic of Vladimir Putin. You can see Sean right there. Sean, great to see you. Thanks so much for coming on.
- [00:48]
Sean Penn
Thank you, man. Good to see you.
- [00:49]
Jim Acosta
And. And, you know, Anna is played by. We should know. Anna's played by Maxine Peak. The film also stars Jason Isaacs, is directed by James Strong, the film released by Rolling Pictures. And, Sean, a little bit. You and I will be speaking with Eric Swalwell, the congressman from California. Apparently, he's also an executive producer of the film. Is that right? That's right, yeah. And, I mean, the movie is inspiring, but it's also about the tragic collapse of the press in Russia during the early years of Putin's rule in that country. The New York Times notes that Anna was shot dead in her Moscow apartment building on October 7, Putin's birthday in 2006. She was just 48 years old with two adult children. Putin denied any role, but the trial never got to the bottom of who ordered the killing. Sean, why did you want to make this movie? Why is it relevant now?
- [01:39]
Sean Penn
Well, to be fair, I. I didn't get into it until. Until after it was made. What happened was that Congressman Swalwell, who's a friend, he had been to some degree involved and supportive of the film. And then. And then the producers came to us and said, you know, I think they were looking for some champions. And we said, you know, once I saw the movie, I was all in. I thought it was not only a, you know, beautifully made movie and beautifully active movie, but also something extremely timely, a kind of cautionary tale for all of us.
- [02:17]
Jim Acosta
And, Sean, I mean, to me, it's a cautionary tale about what can happen when the government crushes the press. If it can happen in Russia, it can happen anywhere. It can happen here in the U.S. i mean, is that. Is that one of the lessons we should take from the film, one of the messages we should take from the film?
- [02:35]
Sean Penn
I think I like to think of it on both sides of it. It's also. It's also crushing when the press does not have her courage. I think that when a journalist is like her, then journalism becomes a vital organ in any democracy. And of course, what's happened in political leadership since 2016, where the press was in part responsible for a lot of, I would say, I guess, the irresponsibility that was so attackable and the, the attackers were practiced, ruthless and were not bothered by dishonesty in the way that they would attack and would do so in ways that were sometimes inflaming of potential violence. And so we are tasting in this country what the Russians have gone through with that.
- [03:34]
Jim Acosta
Yeah. I mean, and there's probably a temptation on the part of a lot of people out there to say, oh, no, that will never happen here in the US but, you know, Sean, I mean, and I do want to show a bit of the film and talk about it a little bit more in a moment, but since you got us going in this direction, I mean, we've already seen some pretty disturbing warning signs since Trump came back into office. We've seen, you know, major networks cut deals with Donald Trump to settle ridiculous lawsuits. You're seeing plenty places like 60 Minutes lose their executive producer because the executive producer there says he can't be independent. There are some troubling signs, some warning signs that are, that we're already starting to see in this country, don't you think?
- [04:18]
Sean Penn
Yeah, absolutely. And I think the early warning signs are when people who boast the Constitution as their patriotism, have not read the Constitution, have no concept of what the word American that they, that they espouse means or has meant in terms of the, the design, the experiment of this democracy, of this republic. And they, those who think that it can't happen here either have not studied the sort of certain implications that it will unless people are involved and are educated or, and educate themselves and go beyond their information silos to do it. Sort of meditate on what the truth really deeply is to them and why it matters.
- [05:05]
Jim Acosta
Yeah, I mean, to me, there's, there's just an attack on the truth right now in this country. You're trying to rewrite the lessons of January six or rewrite what took place in the 2020 election. You know, despite the fact that he's in office now, he's still trying to do that. But let's, let's talk about the movie a little bit. Let's show a clip from the film. Talk about on the other side.
- [05:25]
Sean Penn
Great.
- [05:28]
Maxine Peak
Did you know that the war between Russia and Chechnya is the longest ongoing conflict in the world? Now the Kremlin wants the world to believe that Russia is waging a war against terrorists. Its real purpose is a dedicated Campaign of genocide. I'm a journalist.
- [05:47]
Jim Acosta
Journalist.
- [05:49]
Maxine Peak
The tactics employed by the Kremlin is itself creating a wave of violence that has never been experienced. Oh, my God, the war has come home.
- [06:00]
Sean Penn
People are killing each other. You get in the middle and you're dead, too. Jack Schneers, your baby.
- [06:05]
Maxine Peak
While this newspaper is mine, there is nothing of value apart from the truth. And I do not intend to stop.
- [06:18]
Jim Acosta
Yeah, it looks absolutely powerful, Sean. And we saw Jason Isaacs there. He's also in the film. For all the White Lotus fans out there that will recognize Jason from that. And, you know, this is from Rolling Pictures. And James Strong as the director looks like just an amazing job from everybody putting this film together. It gets to the brutality of the Russians, Sean. And for people who think, okay, you know, what's happening in Ukraine right now, it's half a world away, it doesn't really affect me this, you know, what Putin has been doing over the last, what, 20, 25 years started in Chechnya.
- [07:00]
Sean Penn
Yeah. And, and, and, and there were people like Poliskovskaya who, Who saw that at the time and did try to, to, to mourn. And in the United States, you know, when we. You go forward to Crimea and the annexation of Crimea and the inaction of the United States at that time, I think it was another case of kind of trying to hide the face and say, well, it's not. It's. It's not going to come on our shores. It's actually coming on our shores. It's currently a war. Putin has made it very clear, he said it in. In no uncertain terms, that he alternates between the. The hateful language he says about Ukraine and saying that this is not a war with Ukraine, it's a war with the west and that Ukraine is simply a proxy. And while saying that he's not inactive in prosecuting that war with the United States, be it by cyber and other methods, but drawing on disinformation and creating division in this country.
- [08:04]
Jim Acosta
And you just came back from Ukraine, we can tell our viewers. And Sean, I mean, I know you've had a close relationship with that country's leader, Volodymyr Zelensky. How is he holding up? And, and did you get any sense as to his impression of this peace process, as it's been called, which, you know, a lot of people in the United States are pretty suspicious of.
- [08:25]
Sean Penn
Yeah. You know, I had only been there with the responsibility of a documentary in the past, and to. You're lugging the cameras, and everyone knows you have one agenda or Another what you want to get out of them, there's always. But you have the work you have to do tomorrow you're thinking about and, and so on. And so this trip was really intended for two reasons. One, to go back to reconnect with all the people that I come to have a great respect and affection for their. Both from, from Kiev all the way to the front line and, and also to go with a group of American former military who go by the Asymmetrical Activity Cell and they're doing training with their counterparts in Ukraine. I wanted to see how all of that worked and was fascinated to do that. On the way out, I did meet and see President Zelensky and I have never seen him sharper, absolutely present. And in this fight and in this passion for his country, I was, I must say, I was very encouraged on this trip. The war has changed dramatically. You know, we happen to get there just as Putin agreed to an Easter Sunday ceasefire, which was significantly a ceasefire, though there were some great violations.
- [09:57]
Eric Swalwell
Right.
- [09:57]
Sean Penn
And it allowed us to, to get a little deeper. I, I think, because normally the sky is swarming with drones and it's really a drone artillery war right now. And what the F16s are doing is in a classification that doesn't include me, so I can't speak to that program.
- [10:16]
Jim Acosta
Yeah. And I mean, but one of the issues, though, is, is whether Vladimir Putin could be trusted in any of this. Right? I mean, that's, that's the issue. I mean, you saw Trump go on Truth Social and say, vladimir, stop. After some of these attacks on, on civilian targets, this, this has continued to go on. I, I suppose there have been pauses from time to time, and we'll see, you know, what this minerals deal, you know, know, results in that apparently Zelensky and Trump have agreed to. But it all sort of comes back to whether Putin can be trusted. And, you know, I just don't. How can you trust him?
- [10:54]
Sean Penn
Well, you know, there, there's certainly, there's a threshold at which, well, which is a diverse threshold for any, as we could say, actor in Hollywood to speak about these dynamics and expect anybody to be interested in listening, I'll push the threshold this far. I think that if people were willing to take the time to study the activities of the Wagner group in Africa today, if they watch the dynamics between the Chinese involvement in Africa and the Russians, that there's a simple equation to be met there. And the physics of this kind of economic mapping might prove interesting to people if they should read it. What I'm Saying with that, you know, if I summarize it is that I think we can trust as much as we understand the full intention. And with Putin it's of course multi layered. I do think he believes in a big, you know, Russia all, you know, in some exactly historical way having to do with his parents and all of the stuff that you read about his history as, as a young man. Clearly he is driven by enormous wealth. Often he is considered to be the richest man on earth, though it would be difficult to track that money.
- [12:22]
Jim Acosta
Yeah.
- [12:23]
Sean Penn
If not true, that it's very close to true. He, and he also has a kind of obsession with strategies and he's the most practiced politician in, in the world. He's certainly highly functional. And so what can be trusted is that he wants to win somewhere in one of these ways. Significantly, it's going to be a yard or two or 20 forward and then he'll pause, he'll restrengthen his military and he'll push forward again. And that can be trusted. I think that's why we heard so much from President Zelensky about security guarantees versus what had happened in the, the memorandum related to the disarmament of the nuclear weapons of Ukraine's and that the United States signed on to and Russian signed on to and violated every aspect of it since. So it's not so much I don't think there's any trust to be had in him other than that he will fulfill his agendas and, and it's up to smart diplomacy to have those agendas minimalized.
- [13:41]
Jim Acosta
Yeah. And just follow up on that. Do you think it's a, it's a question of can he be given Crimea? Can he get, be given a piece of land to appease him? For now I hate using that word appeasement because it harkens back to an era where appeasement did not work. But is there a way to contain him? I suppose by offering some of that. Of course, that's not for you and me to decide, but that's, that's for the Ukrainians.
- [14:05]
Sean Penn
Right. And, and what I say to friends, you know, we all understand that it's frustrating from afar to see war and, and all of the tragedy that goes along with it. But when you go to Ukraine and you visit with Ukrainians, here's what they, what would be familiar to people here about them. It wasn't our house, us in the United States who they came into in the middle of the night to the tune of about 30,000 stole their children are re educating those children in Russia. Now, some of those children, over the course of these past few years, have gotten of age to fight and have fought for the Russians, having been taught to hate their Russian family and country, their, their Ukrainian family and country. This is, these are crime, war crimes. This is a. They were, there were incredible amount of raping, literal raping and pillaging, Right. Civilian casualties, environmental destruction, catastrophes, all because of Vladimir Putin. So when we say, you know, if they just give up Crimea, well, that's like saying to someone who came in your house, well, if you just give up, and not only that, but if your family happens to live in Crimea or one of the occupied territories, now, how do we just accept that? The idea should be, oh, give up this little territory. It's not just a territory. It's human beings, it's freedom, it's love, it's marriages, it's families, it's history.
- [15:44]
Jim Acosta
Yeah. And what about the children who were abducted and kidnapped into Russia? I mean, the, the number of war crimes that have been committed? I mean, you know, I have to think on the part of the Ukrainians that they want to see some accountability. And I guess it kind of goes back to the film a little bit, Sean. And, and, you know, Vladimir Putin has been getting away with murder, literal murder, for decades. This is, this is what he exports to the world. This is, this is, this is their, this is what they do. This is who they are.
- [16:18]
Sean Penn
Yes. What I'd like to see in our country, and this is, you know, something I think the film will say to people, will offer to people. You have a choice. If Americanism is cowardice, then you will look the other way. If Americanism is patriotism, and its. Patriotism is really a word that should extend to the quality of life of human beings, whatever the borders are. And, and that's what the dream, the experiment, the best of the American aspiration has risen to at times that we're allowing that to go back. You can march with big shoulders and bully chests and long barrel weapons anywhere, all you want. You're still going to be a coward. And I just would like to see America choose courage over cowards.
- [17:16]
Jim Acosta
Is that happening right now? Because, Sean, what I see is a lot of bending the knee. Not just from the media, from law firms, from universities, in the face of an administration that has said due process doesn't apply to migrants, that US Citizen children can be removed from the country with their undocumented mothers without due process. A lot's been going down here. It's been a while since you and I have Spoken.
- [17:46]
Sean Penn
While that's the case, we've got a representative, the United States at the Kremlin talking about how awestruck he was and sort of like a 12 year old who thought, I get to play grown up and negotiate peace between Ukraine and someone who knows nothing about anything. Yeah, Incompetence in these positions is really.
- [18:08]
Jim Acosta
Deadly incompetence here in the U.S. yeah, yeah, well, and we just saw that. I mean, we're seeing some of that play out today. I mean, Trump just got rid of his national security advisor because they accidentally put attack plans on signal. I don't want to drag you into all that kind of stuff, but, but, you know, I guess, Sean, you know, the question that I have in all of this is because you and I have talked about Ukraine several times now. You know, I remember sitting down with you when we, when we met with Moonfish and Juice, the fighter pilots. And you know, there's just a part of me that thinks you were talking about the American experience and so on. To me, the American experience includes accountability, includes justice, includes victory over oppressors, victories over enemies of democracy. And it's a little cloudy, it's a little hard to see that end result at the end of where we are right now, if that makes any sense. And I wonder what you.
- [19:10]
Sean Penn
Yeah, yeah, that makes perfect sense. And, and how to, you know, I guess message these things is a magic trick that I don't think anybody's come up with yet. Not candidates running for office, not, not the media, not activists like me. Like, it's, it's, it's so difficult to outrun the amount of disinformation, the amount of shameless rhetoric and, and activities. I mean, even the, the utter collapse of USAID and what that has done, literally, you know, if one could just talk turkey, that would be called negligent homicide on a grand scale and continuing as we speak.
- [20:01]
Jim Acosta
So because of the suffering that will be unleashed by the shutting, because of.
- [20:06]
Sean Penn
Resources that we're keeping the country alive, not to mention the part of that that involves trust, belief in the United States, gratitude to the United States, which has tentacles into the intelligence community, which has been significantly compromised, as we know. Three years, we're three years away from having a covert operator because all three years of people being in right now has just been perished by the, by CIA's cable to the White House to doge about with the names of every hire. It, it's, it's a, it's really madness. People should not feel safe today with all of that. And they should work towards safety by expressing just a little bit of courage more tomorrow and a little bit more.
- [21:01]
Jim Acosta
Yeah.
- [21:02]
Sean Penn
And. And because people are so polarized, you know, I, I feel sort of silly being on television talking about it because I know I'm kind of a lightning rod for this. It's like, you know, that you and me both.
- [21:16]
Jim Acosta
Yeah.
- [21:17]
Sean Penn
So, you know, we gotta. But we gotta figure it out. We gotta figure it out.
- [21:21]
Jim Acosta
Well, we're seeing that courage, I think, on display from the people. I think people are coming up, they're rising up, they're going out there, they're demonstrating, they're getting their. Their voices out there. And so we're seeing folks like Eric Swalwell, who's going to join us in a few moments. He's going to Republican districts and holding town halls and Republican districts where they won't hold town halls.
- [21:38]
Sean Penn
And.
- [21:38]
Jim Acosta
And so there's some of that going on.
- [21:40]
Sean Penn
But.
- [21:41]
Jim Acosta
But in the category, I guess what you would call the elites in American society and the press down on Wall street and big law firms in academia, there is a courage deficit. And when you're looking at the press coverage, because this goes back to the film a little bit, I just wonder what you're observing, because when I was recently in Norway and the way that the foreign press covers the United States is very different than what we see in the United States. And you see certain networks, you know, on the conservative side of things. I mean, it looks like I'm watching Russian state tv. It looks like I'm watching state television outlets in authoritarian countries just repeating propaganda from the people in power. What are your thoughts on all of that?
- [22:26]
Sean Penn
You know, it was interesting. I saw a business report on the television news last night and they were talking about certain statistics as it related to, you know, business management and, and forward projections and so on. They talked about one of the parts of it that through it is that there's an assumption that people of wealth understand how their financial world works. And. And in many cases it's not the case in today. I believe that the people we're talking about in terms of the money elites in the United States, I really think that they are Pollyannish to the. To how this can come right to their door. And I'm talking about every aspect of it on every level. I mean, we saw, even in terms of Mother Nature talking about it recently, you know, a lot of great people. I'm not talking about, you know, people who would never. Their lifestyle is such. They never would have expected those. The wildfires in Los Angeles Right. And it came right to the door of a lot of people who are too elite to be touched by it. None of us are. None of us are. And this goes right up to the top of Silicon Valley. And so I think what they don't understand is that within 10 years they're going to be facing the end result of decisions they're making today and they should think those out. Instead, they're looking at bottom lines. We see in many of these companies are holding positions, just ready to open their doors in Russia again. They don't want to alienate Russia. They don't want to alienate this president. They don't want to. It's not going to pay off for any of us.
- [24:12]
Jim Acosta
Yeah. And I'm being told that some of the comments coming in as we're speaking, Sean, one stands out in particular. It has to do with the Russians and I think has something to do with what people are seeing here at home, Americans are seeing at home. One comment came in saying no appeasing of fascists. No appeasing of fascists. And I know this is something you feel strongly about. It's something you have battled against your whole career as both a, a filmmaker, an activist, an actor and so on. What do you, what are your thoughts on that? Because it is kind of, we're in kind of that moment right now, it.
- [24:46]
Sean Penn
Seems to me we are, but perversely that's the word they would use to describe us. And you know, to be fair, I, you know, I have felt extremely alienated by a lot of the priorities that, let's say the more progressive or more center political thinkers have gone where on the left. It's, you know, we're, we're spending a lot of time navigating, you know, identity terms while children are being vaporized on the front line of Ukraine. You know, we use a word like socialist. Well, I always, I always talk to, when I talk to people across this country, let's say, and say, you know, did, did you, did you ever have to call 91 1? And one person told me the story of their grandmother calling 91 1. Someone was breaking into the house. And I asked him, and the police got there in time and I asked him which credit card he used to pay the police. And he said he didn't have to do that. I said, yeah, well, that's what they call socialism. And I think that it would be less self interested and more interesting if politicians who, let's say, considered themselves socialist picked another word and talked about the aspects of what can be technically called that, that are actually things we can all agree on, just really simple touch bases like that. And I, you mentioned Congressman Swalwell coming on and, and I, I should say, because I get on a roll and I know I was speaking very negatively about saying this. You know, there's. Nobody's learned how to say the message. I, I do think that there are some heroes, a lot of them we don't know the names of. And a lot of them are kids out there on the street. And then there are those who are still, despite all the reasons not to, are willing to serve this great American experiment. And I think Congressman Eric Swalwell is one of the finest men that I know and is certainly a man of courage.
- [26:55]
Jim Acosta
I mean, you know Eric, and I've gotten to know Eric very well and he does not hold back. And his view on this is you don't hold back. And you know, I'm kind of curious, Sean, since you brought this, I mean, what has been your observation of how they've handled this on the Democratic side? They're sort of, and I think Swalwell would acknowledge this, that the party is sort of trying to figure it out, how much is too much? What's the right mix? I mean, what do you see?
- [27:21]
Sean Penn
Well, I, you know, I mean, I.
- [27:23]
Jim Acosta
Want you to handicap the future Democratic field or anything like that, but I.
- [27:26]
Sean Penn
Will accuse myself fairly of having been involved in a lot of conversations where I agreed with them saying it's a bunch of ass. But, but that doesn't mean there's a documentary. I think it's called the Great Hack about Cambridge Analytica.
- [27:44]
Jim Acosta
Yeah.
- [27:44]
Sean Penn
If you watch that and you think about how to market the facts unlike what they were doing. In other words, they are a dollar diabolical. Let's say what they call behavioral change agency because of the idea that behavior leads to voting which way you vote. Yeah, well, there's a behavioral change agency that people would volunteer for their behavior to be changed because they want it to be evolved, they want it to be smarter, they want it to be better for the kids. Am I voting for the right person? What does it mean? Who's accountable for what happened? Why am I letting this person tell me it was this guy versus that guy versus that woman? The information doesn't take a rocket scientist to get to. It just takes a clear headed person calmly stepping into it. And I think that the Democratic Party strategically should look at that documentary and say we don't have to go below decency for the same kind of practice to work now things have evolved technologically since then in the way information is exchanged, but there's not an adaptation of that where, where I think the Democrats could not be beaten, that, that, that the, there are now ways for people technically a kind of, well, a kind of AI Party, political party, one where everyone can go and, and not be told it's not true because they can fact check it all the way to the beginning of time.
- [29:19]
Jim Acosta
Yeah, no, and I mean, I've heard from a number of, you know, Democratic operatives, Democratic politicians, you know, they, they know they need to get their act together. And in one area where they want to get their act together is, is in, in media, you know, the right, the far right, they jumped way ahead of the game when it came to podcasts, when it came to independent media, different outlets. We saw all of this play out during the 2024 campaign. You saw Trump going on just about every podcast you can think of. And I don't want to, you know, go off on anybody.
- [29:55]
Eric Swalwell
I'm not.
- [29:56]
Jim Acosta
That's what I'm saying. But like the Harris campaign, they were reluctant to go on Joe Rogan and they were very cautious about doing those sorts of things. Is some of this just changes in the media? And I mean, I, I'm, I'm pretty happy about where I'm right where I'm at right now in independent media. This, this is the most fun I've had in a long time, I will say, because, you know, there's no company, I don't have a company that, that is calling me up or emailing me and saying, hey, you know, we're concerned about this story or that story and I think we need more of this. I just, yeah, listen, you talked about.
- [30:29]
Sean Penn
Congressman Smallwell going out and talking to people on both sides around the country. I, I think that media people should do the same. By that, I mean that now I'm talking about the companies send people around to talk to people and say, hey, because remember there was a partnership that kind of, you know, partners in sin between the audience and, and the news programs and, and the newspapers. What, what is it that's going to sell papers? What's going to sell this? What's going to compete with Fox? And so immediately it starts to degenerate from both sides. People ask for candy instead of something nutritious and, and then the news media gives it to him. I think we need a reset button on all of it. And, and I'm hoping that that can happen. And I, and, and I do hope in its little way that this film that I'm so honored, Words of War to be a part of, to be allowed to support, let's say, with direct relationship. Because really, you know, this happened and it's happened, as you know, and as you said, a lot over there.
- [31:45]
Jim Acosta
Yeah.
- [31:46]
Sean Penn
And this case. And because it's. The storytelling is so well done, so well written and directed and acted, and that it recalls events that for. At least for, you know, a guy my age seemed like yesterday. You know, it's part of our time. And, and, and we don't. We don't want this for our country. No matter who you are, you don't want this for our country. And, and watching this film, you will see the march toward it that we're making.
- [32:18]
Jim Acosta
Yeah. As I say in that trailer that we played earlier, the war is coming home. And I mean, that's what we've seen take place in Russia from Anna all the way to Navalny. And we should note Words of War. You're going to see some opening weekend screenings taking place at the Santa Monica Lemley. That is on Friday. That's Tomorrow through the 4th. Jason Isaacs and Sean will be in attendance for an audience Q and A. I hope that you know that, Sean, you've been roped into a Q and A with the audience there. Swalwell is going to be doing a Q and A as well in la. He has events in New York City's West Village. Check your local listings. And I noticed there's some, some, some screenings happening here in the D.C. area next weekend. So I'm excited about that. I'm going to get out and see the movie. But this weekend, Sean, is World Press Freedom Day. And we're still waiting on Eric Swalwell to join the conversation. We'll get him in here shortly. But, I mean, you know, it's the thing that's probably taken for granted almost more than anything else, that we have freedom of the press in this country. I mean, it is under attack in this country. And when we talk about World Press Freedom Day, it ain't free in a whole lot of places around the world. And I, as I often, you know, you know, go visit an authoritarian country where they don't have freedom of the press and ask yourself whether you want to live there, you don't want to live in the places where they don't have freedom of the press. And I'm sure you have that experience, too, traveling all around the world and seeing this up close yourself.
- [33:45]
Sean Penn
Yeah, yeah. And I just kind of a shout out. There's A. There's a group that I've been involved with since 2003. I. I went there where my press credential was from the Institute for War and Peace Reporting, run by a fellow named Tony Borden. I would recommend people take a look into that. What they do in support of journalists around the world is really extraordinary.
- [34:12]
Jim Acosta
Yeah, there's no question about it, Sean. Any. Any final thoughts? I think we're getting Eric Swalwell loaded in here shortly. Is that. I think I see a box appear. There he is. There he is. Congressman Eric Swalwell. I was just about to ask Sean for some final thoughts because I was. I thought, well, you know, the congressman might have a vote, he might have a speech, he might have a rally or a town hall. He's a busy man. And he's the executive producer of Words of War. Do we call you Hollywood now? A congressman? What's your nickname these days? Can we still call you Eric?
- [34:44]
Eric Swalwell
I. I watched that. I watched that. I watched the first. An early draft, that film with Sean in that living room where he's at right now.
- [34:54]
Sean Penn
Yeah.
- [34:56]
Jim Acosta
Why is the film so important? Why'd you sign up on this?
- [34:58]
Eric Swalwell
No, I'm so glad that Sean. I'm so. I'm so glad Sean is a part of it, and I signed up for it for the reason Sean works so hard on behalf of Ukraine's freedom and democracy, which is this idea that the press must remain free and independent. I was a 10 year old newspaper delivery boy. My grandfather was the editor of our local newspaper. I ran for student body president when I was in fifth grade just to start a school newspaper and wrote for a school newspaper all through college. And now in this job, get covered oftentimes quite critically by the press, and they're doing their job. And if we lose that, we will lose the ability for people to be informed, to go to the town square, will lose the ability for lawyers to have sources to go to, to file lawsuits, to hold the administration accountable. So all of the pillars that keep, you know, our democracy in check depend on a free press. If we. If reporters are afraid to report, everything else crumbles. And what inspired me about this film is, is in Anna's story, most importantly, is she was so fearless and determined, and she was threatened. Her family asked her to stop. She was poisoned and she persisted. And we need more Annas right now if our own democracy is going to get through this.
- [36:30]
Jim Acosta
Yeah, and Congressman, I was talking to Sean about this earlier. I mean, we've seen the press come under attack in this country. Since Trump has come back into office, we've seen a lot of bending of the knee and so on, which we discussed earlier. But I mean, the way he's gone after the Associated Press because they won't call it the Gulf of America, he kicks him out of the Oval Office and the, and off of Air Force One. You know, and as I tell people all the time, you know, when, when an organization like the Associated Press is attacked in that fashion, it has a chilling effect on other news organizations. And that's the concern that we have in this country. And yes, that's, that's not as sinister as what, what took place, what happened to Anna all those years ago in, in Moscow. But you can see the beginning stages. That's what I worry about. This sort of slow kind of crushing, rolling over the press in this, in this country we just can't allow to happen or else we're going to be in big trouble and sick. Like I was saying on the other, on the other day, on my show the other day, when 60 Minutes is in trouble, we're all in trouble.
- [37:30]
Sean Penn
Yes.
- [37:31]
Jim Acosta
Yeah, yeah.
- [37:32]
Eric Swalwell
Donald Trump is an ambitious, he is, he aspires to be a dictator. But the only way for that to work and he's not a dictator yet because to be a dictator you need a Congress that won't check you, courts that won't be independent, people that won't go to the town square. And as we're talking about today, a press that will shrink and out of fear not cover you. Well, the Congress, the Republican led Congress is gone. Forget it. They're, they're not there. So it's a three legged stool right now for our democracy. And to my surprise, the press has pretty fiercely and independently covered him. That's, you know, Mike Waltz is no longer the national security advisor because a journalist at the Atlantic reported on the national security secrets he leaked in a Signal Group chat. You know, a four year old American citizen who was deported to South America while suffering through cancer treatments. His story has been told because the press, you know, is covering that. And the corruption that we've seen with the Trump coin is because the press is covering it. And so they, they are rising to the occasions. Some of them are, you know, shrinking as you, you noted with what's going on at cbs. But as the press covers independently, people are inspired themselves to go to the town square and demand better. So we need all of these institutions to be working and hopefully if we have an independent press and we have people at the town square and if we have courts that remain independent in the 2026 midterms. You could get a Congress. That would also be its own check on an abuse of power.
- [39:19]
Jim Acosta
Yeah, I mean I'm glad you brought up the Mike Waltz situation and Sean, feel free to chime in as well. But it seems to me when Trump removes the National Security Advisor because of Signal Gate, it might be because Mike Waltz accidentally looped in the reporter from the Atlantic more so that than, than the use of Signal or all of the other tomfoolery that went involved, that was involved in this sort of debacle on their part. Your thoughts on that? And I guess Sean, if you want to weigh into, I mean it doesn't happen often, Sean, when war, war plans are leaked over Signal.
- [39:52]
Sean Penn
Well, and, and 2 of all outlets, you know, a very bold outlet in the Atlantic that Jeff Goldberg was the one in receipt with. It is, you know, because by the way, in defense of Mike Waltz, Signal is routinely used as, as a mode of encryption by many in government a lot of times on sensitive things. But yes, I, I, you know we, I think all of us, I hope all of us so that I'm not singling myself out have sometimes pressed send to the wrong person on a message I, I, I have a hot list of those I never do can do that to because I, I, you know, because we are all human. But that it was, that it was him of all people. Yeah, well it shows we still have humor in America. Just a little, just enough we can do it. And, and I think one other thing I'd add to the, the acts of institutions is, is you know kids can start book clubs, they meet every whatever afternoon and just read little of the Constitution to each other and talk about it.
- [41:05]
Jim Acosta
Yeah, absolutely. I mean especially the fifth Amendment due process. Congressman Swalwell, I mean you mentioned the 4 year old who was sent to Honduras, a US citizen with stage 4 cancer. Apparently it does make me when we're talking about Putin and Russia, when you do away with due process to basically prey on a vulnerable community. I mean that is, that's why people are throwing around the word fascism. That is why people are throwing saying this is authoritarianism. It's a slow, it's a slow creeping sort of thing that we're seeing in front of our eyes. But I mean it is, I mean that those kinds of actions are at the heart of these concerns.
- [41:50]
Eric Swalwell
Sean, I don't know if you saw, I know you've been traveling, but a journalist named Terry Moran, I think that was his name went into the Oval Office and confronted the President about his claims about Mr. Garcia from Maryland, who the administration admits they mistakenly sent to that prison camp in El Salvador. And what disturbs me, Jim and Terry persisted. But for the president to just gaslight the American people and Terry, even Terry had made his point and he was ready to move on. And the president wasn't ready to move on. He wanted to continue to gaslight and insist that the photoshopped MS.13 was actually. And, and when I saw that, I thought, okay, every flashing light for our democracy is now on. Because when you think about a president who has said he's going to go after his political enemies, who appoints an FBI director who has a list of enemies. And yes, I'm not on the list. I am in the forward to the list. So I'm above the list. So I do think about this. And he has an executive order directing the attorney general to go after Chris Krebs and Miles Taylor. Miles Taylor, Yep. All the lights are flashing and so when he's willing to lie about the evidence that would keep an innocent man locked up. To me, we're just on the precipice of bogus charges being filed with four falsified evidence against his political opponents. That's, that's where it's headed.
- [43:27]
Sean Penn
We should be all eyes on number three at FBI because there's not, there's no other job this guy was built for but they, but to be the head of the retribution department. I expect to knock on the door anytime. Be this guy likes to rant and rave about things. Doesn't understand.
- [43:41]
Jim Acosta
Bongino.
- [43:42]
Sean Penn
Yeah, there's, there's a, there's a host of kind of bag men that we should take really seriously.
- [43:50]
Eric Swalwell
Yep.
- [43:51]
Jim Acosta
Yeah. Yeah. And Sean, what, what are your, what's your impression of the case of Kilmar? I mean, and, and what's going on in El Salvador with this sea cot? I mean, it looks, you know people, it looks like a gulag. That's what it looks like.
- [44:05]
Sean Penn
You know, the. I know that Bukele had been lobbing very hard at one point to get the military contract to invade Haiti to, to occupy and to build prisons and so on. Was just looking for enough money to do it. I don't know a lot about him. I have opinions forming, but I, I, and what I do know is that for a lot of El Salvadorians, things are more livable now because of the extreme actions he took. And sometimes we understand the extreme actions are necessary. But I, I worry now that whatever his proclivities were politically that emboldened by the success of that and the attention that the world is giving it. It's going to be an immediate turnover of, you know, power corrupts and so on.
- [45:05]
Jim Acosta
Congressman, don't you think? I mean, does a Democrat, maybe Van Hollen passed on this message? I have no idea. But should a Democratic lawmaker, a delegation of lawmakers pass along the message to Bukele that, hey, you know, Donald Trump, despite his fantasies, he's not going to be in office forever, there's no way to cryo freeze his brain and robotically remain in power for the next three decades. He's not Vladimir Putin, he's not going to stick around for 25 years. And that Bukele needs to be told like there are going to be other administrations that are going to come in here that are not going to look too kindly on this, what you're doing down there.
- [45:39]
Eric Swalwell
Jim Bukele should be told that the law firms that are caving should be told that the colleges that are caving should be told that the CEOs who have antitrust suits against them and are trying to find their way out by donating to his inauguration funds or helping him in some other way. They should be told that, you know, we're, we're taking inventory of who's trying to do, you know, these one off anti Democratic deals with Donald Trump. And you know, there's going to be a day of reckoning and accountability because the president's poll numbers are in, they're under 40% right now. I mean he's, he's in a freefall as far as his poll numbers. And we're putting more and more seats in Congress and in the Senate in play. And so we expect a wave like election and we're preparing for that. And we are going to be a check that is not there right now. And so yes, he should think twice about what the long term future of El Salvador is if Donald Trump is no longer in power.
- [46:42]
Sean Penn
But before Bukele gets to that point where he's dealing with another leader, we should consider worst case scenarios. And I do think it's a reasonable theory that Donald Trump is not unlike the spouse of someone who leaves him perhaps for another who then murders their former partner because if they can't have her, nobody can. And I think Donald Trump in his solipsism may have that relationship with the world and that this destruction is in part a power play and also a literal intention of his final out.
- [47:16]
Jim Acosta
You think he'll try to stay on.
- [47:19]
Sean Penn
I think he might try to destroy the world by the. Before, before he, before he ages out of life.
- [47:27]
Eric Swalwell
I just, in the history of dictators or those who aspire to be dictators, there's never a succession plan. Right? There's never. And that's what worries me is if he doesn't believe there's somebody who can protect him, that he, you will see him ratchet up, you know, what he's willing to do to the country to protect himself. And, you know, you know, Putin did that with Medvedev, and then Putin just decided, I'm going to be president, and then I'm going to get rid of the rule that says I can't serve. You know, I can't have a term limit on me. And so I, I don't see us going in any other direction. So our only hope is a Congress that will check it, a press that will report on it, a court that's independent to rule on it, and a town square filled with Americans who say, hell no, not in this country.
- [48:20]
Sean Penn
And it's the independence of the courts that are going to be the big game changer one way or another.
- [48:25]
Jim Acosta
Right. And whether they ultimately bend the knee, I mean, what happens at the Supreme Court, that's right, that, I mean, that, that's a big part. And, and you know, I, not to go on a tangent, but I was with Trump on Inauguration Day for Joe Biden, and I've told this story before, and I'll say it here again. You know, the thought that went through my mind when I was at a Joint Base Andrews and got on Air Force One with him to drop him off at Mar a Lago was, thank God he got on this plane. And what I tell people when people ask me about this, this scenario, because I agree with you, Congressman, I think he could just start running in the primaries and, and just say, oh, the hell with it. I'm just going to do it. Look, the people are on my side and so on, I, I, you know, that's my question is, does he, does he leave next time? Is it going to take hundreds of thousands of people on the streets in.
- [49:12]
Sean Penn
D.C. i think it just makes him stubbing his toe to declare martial law and postpone elections.
- [49:18]
Jim Acosta
Yeah, yeah.
- [49:21]
Eric Swalwell
That's why we need a free press, Jim.
- [49:23]
Jim Acosta
Yeah, absolutely. And, and this weekend is World Press Freedom Day, a great weekend to go out and see words of war. It's, it's starting out in California where I think you'll both be. And then I think, Congressman, you've got some screenings in New York, where you're going to do some Q and A, you're both going to do some Q and A, and everybody needs to go see it. It's a fascinating, powerful film and it's a cautionary tale. I mean, Congressman, ultimately, that's the message. This is a cautionary. This is to warn people around the world, especially here in the United States, this can happen here.
- [49:55]
Sean Penn
Say, about that film, Mexican Peak, Jason Isaacs and Kieran Hines are just extraordinary. So just for the audience out there that's into great acting. You'll see it in this movie.
- [50:08]
Jim Acosta
Yeah. Dynamite. And Jason Isaac is having such a huge moment right now for people who are big Jason Isaacs fans, it's a great time to go see him in a big Hollywood movie. Congressman, any final thoughts?
- [50:20]
Eric Swalwell
We need more. Anna's and our country can look like the country that she covered pretty quickly if we don't support those pillars of democracy.
- [50:32]
Jim Acosta
Yeah. Well, Sean Penn, Eric Swalwell, thank you, gentlemen, both of your time. Really appreciate it. Great to talk to you. And Sean, thanks for giving us so much your time. I know you're a little jet lag. You were just on a plane from Ukraine.
- [50:45]
Sean Penn
And if not, I, I use that excuse for the way.
- [50:49]
Jim Acosta
I do, too. I do, too. And it helps in a pinch. You know, people say, oh, yeah, that's true. You're jet lag. Guys. Really appreciate it. Thanks. And say hi. Say hi to the little, little fella. I heard a little bark every now and then. Duke pretty much behaved himself the whole time, but thanks for everything, guys. Appreciate it. All right. Good to see you. All right, well, you know, listen, we, we rolled the dice today. We decided to try to do this a little bit different today. A bit higher production level, you might say. For the folks over at Mediaite who once said this was a no frills show, we had some frills today. We, we showed you Sean Penn, we showed you Eric Swalwick. We rolled to a trailer of this remarkable film, Words of War, as we were just talking about with Sean and Eric, the executive producers of the film. The film is coming out in the next couple of weeks, probably in a city near you. As I was saying earlier, there are some weekend screenings taking place this weekend in Santa Monica at the Lemley that's going to be starting tomorrow through Sunday. Jason Isaacs of White Lotus fame and Sean Penn will be in attendance for an audience Q and A. And Eric Swallow will be out there as well. He also has events in New York City's West Village So check your local listings. As I was saying earlier on in the program, I see some listings here in D.C. so I'm going to get out there, I think, next weekend to go check it out. But again, you know, it's not just a movie thing that we're talking about here, folks. We're talking about. And I've talked about this on many times on this program. I've talked about this many times on this program. It's about preserving the American way of life and people who are a little bit longer in the tooth, like myself, maybe a little bit longer than that. Remember the days of Walter Cronkite, remember the days of Murrow, remember the days of the Tiffany Network over at cbs, abc, NBC, cnn, msnbc, New York Times, Washington Post, Wall Street Journal, all the great newspapers and all the different cities, big and small around the country. We have this thing called the free press in America, and we take it for granted. Well, there's the newspaper on the doorstep. Honey, can you bring me the Sunday paper? I want to read it in my chair while I'm watching a TV show or having my cornflakes and my coffee. We take it for granted that it's there every day. But as we're seeing in this film, Words of War, you can see the state, it did it in Russia and it can happen here, slowly but surely, chip away at the free press, at news organizations, at journalists, by intimidation through threats. And as we see in the case of Anna in this movie, on, on attempts on her life and the message of that film, and I think it's a powerful message and it needs to be repeated again. It can happen anywhere. If it can happen in Russia, it can happen here. And people need to understand that. My thanks once again to Sean Penn, to Eric Swalwell and everybody involved with the making of Words of War. Really appreciate them just doing everything possible to make this happen today. And we'll, we'll have another show tomorrow, so stay tuned for that. The Free Press. The free press lives on here on substack and on YouTube and here on the Jim Acosta Show. So thanks again, everybody, for watching. Really appreciate it. Still reporting from Washington, I'm Jim Acosta. Have a good evening, everybody. Take care.
- [54:13]
Maxine Peak
War has two sides. I say it has three. The innocent civilians caught in the middle of a medieval brutal war.
- [54:25]
Sean Penn
Stay down.
- [54:30]
Maxine Peak
Did you know that the war between Russia and Chechnya is the longest ongoing conflict in the world?
- [54:36]
Sean Penn
We don't think we need a war correspondent in Chechnya. We need a people correspondent. If you really want to report the truth? I'll show you difficult things for you to see. Someone who's willing to confront the powerful.
- [54:52]
Jim Acosta
By asking hard questions, even if it.
- [54:55]
Sean Penn
Means pissing them off.
- [54:57]
Maxine Peak
Now, the Kremlin wants the world to believe that Russia is waging a war against terrorists. Its real purpose is a dedicated campaign of genocide.
- [55:08]
Jim Acosta
Well, you said you were going to be tough on them. You've dropped a bomb on his doorstep.
- [55:13]
Maxine Peak
I was aiming for his lap. If you choose to be a journalist in Russia, you have to accept the risk.
- [55:21]
Jim Acosta
Your wife, she's making quite a name for herself.
- [55:24]
Sean Penn
Bit reckless. Do you think so? She's well aware of the danger she's into.
- [55:29]
Eric Swalwell
But are you?
- [55:33]
Maxine Peak
We expect many more mass graves to be found.
- [55:38]
Eric Swalwell
I've woken up every morning and wondered if my mother has been found in a ditch.
- [55:41]
Maxine Peak
I'm a journalist.
- [55:42]
Jim Acosta
Journalist.
- [55:44]
Maxine Peak
The tactics employed by the Kremlin is itself creating a wave of violence that has never been experienced. Oh, my God.
- [55:53]
Jim Acosta
The war has come home.
- [55:55]
Sean Penn
People are killing each other. You get in the middle and you're dead too, Jack. Sneeze is your baby, while this newspaper is mine.
- [56:02]
Maxine Peak
There is nothing of value upon part from the truth, and I do not intend to stop.