The Latest on Epstein-gate with Jeffrey Epstein's brother Mark Epstein, investigative journalist Vicky Ward, and political columnist Matt Lewis.

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Jim Acosta Show – "The Latest on Epstein-gate"
Host: Jim Acosta
Release Date: July 14, 2025

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Introduction
In this compelling episode of The Jim Acosta Show, host Jim Acosta delves deep into the ongoing controversy surrounding Jeffrey Epstein, aptly dubbed "Epstein-gate." Acosta engages with three distinguished guests: Mark Epstein (Jeffrey Epstein's brother), investigative journalist Vicki Ward, and political columnist Matt Lewis. The conversation explores the mysterious circumstances of Jeffrey Epstein's death, alleged government cover-ups, and the implications involving high-profile figures like former President Donald Trump.

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Mark Epstein on Jeffrey Epstein’s Death
[01:14] Mark Epstein:
Mark Epstein initiates the discussion by challenging the official narrative surrounding Jeffrey Epstein's death. He expresses deep skepticism about the Department of Justice memo, which concluded Epstein's death as a suicide, labeling it instead as a potential murder.

• Suspicious Autopsy Findings:
  [02:54] Mark Epstein:
  Mark presents a photograph of Epstein's cell door, highlighting its location in the maximum security tier and noting its absence in released surveillance footage. He underscores inconsistencies in the autopsy report, mentioning that both Dr. Roman and Dr. Barton found the evidence more indicative of homicide rather than suicide.

  "They couldn't call it a suicide because it looked too much like a homicide." — Mark Epstein [02:54]

• Questioning Official Statements:
  [04:23] Mark Epstein:
  He criticizes the sudden shift in the medical examiner's conclusion from "pending further investigation" to "suicide," questioning the legitimacy of such a turnaround without substantial evidence.

  "Why, if this was a suicide, why the secrecy?" — Mark Epstein [04:23]

• Security Lapses and Suspicious Circumstances:
  [05:04] Mark Epstein:
  Mark details the security protocols of Epstein’s cell, pointing out failures like non-operational cameras and questioned movements captured in the scant footage available.

  "That's not the way Jeffrey was. It can't be just walking over and into a cell." — Mark Epstein [06:07]

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Vicki Ward on Systems of Power and Epstein’s Influence
[23:29] Vicki Ward:
Vicki Ward shifts the focus to the broader implications of Epstein’s connections, emphasizing his role as a "hyper connector" among global elites and powerful institutions.

• Epstein’s Network and Influence:
  [24:38] Vicki Ward:
  She outlines Epstein’s extensive connections across various sectors, including politics, finance, and international relations, questioning why such a figure received lenient treatment initially.

  "He was a master manipulator... connecting with presidents, the British royal family, and more." — Vicki Ward [24:38]

• Government Transparency and Cover-Up Concerns:
  [29:08] Vicki Ward:
  Vicki critiques the government's handling of Epstein's case, highlighting settlements and non-prosecution agreements that seem to silence victims without proper accountability.

  "Why not just release all the documentation? Why the secrecy?" — Vicki Ward [29:08]

• Political Ramifications:
  [32:52] Vicki Ward:
  She discusses the potential political motivations behind the cover-up, suggesting that high-profile individuals, including Donald Trump, might have vested interests in suppressing information.

  "Donald Trump has never been transparent about his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. Why not?" — Vicki Ward [34:08]

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Matt Lewis on Political Implications and Conspiracy Theories
[46:48] Matt Lewis:
Matt Lewis provides a political perspective, analyzing how the Epstein case intersects with Donald Trump's political maneuvers and the broader landscape of conspiracy theories.

• Trump’s Defensive Stance:
  [47:28] Matt Lewis:
  He observes Trump’s unusual reaction to the Epstein files, noting that traditional deflection tactics (“dead cat strategy”) are failing in this instance.

  "This is different. And part of why it's different is he always, before he could change the subject, he could distract us." — Matt Lewis [47:28]

• Impact on the MAGA Base:
  [53:00] Matt Lewis:
  Matt explores the potential fracturing within Trump's support base, distinguishing between die-hard loyalists and true believers who might question the administration's narrative.

  "Some of these folks are true believers... but there is something weird here." — Matt Lewis [53:00]

• Government and Deep State Cover-Up Theories:
  [56:15] Matt Lewis:
  He delves into allegations of government involvement in covering up Epstein’s death, suggesting that elements within the deep state might be orchestrating the suppression of information.

  "It's like a mystery wrapped in an enigma wrapped in a riddle." — Matt Lewis [57:20]

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Discussion on Donald Trump’s Involvement and the Epstein Files

Throughout the episode, the hosts and guests critically examine Donald Trump’s historical relationship with Jeffrey Epstein and his current actions to distance himself from the scandal.

• Historical Friendship and Downfall:
  [10:02] Mark Epstein:
  Mark recounts the friendship between Trump and Epstein, noting their social interactions and eventual fallout.

  "They were good friends. They used to fly back and forth to Florida on each other's planes." — Mark Epstein [10:02]

• Trump’s Recent Behavior and Cover-Up Efforts:
  [08:31] Mark Epstein:
  He criticizes Trump administration officials, labeling them as "lackeys" attempting to suppress the Epstein investigation to protect powerful interests.

  "It seems like all of Trump lackeys will say anything they can to please him and try to squash this whole issue." — Mark Epstein [08:31]

• Conspiracy Theories and Political Fallout:
  [48:06] Matt Lewis:
  Matt discusses how Trump's attempts to distract from the Epstein files with conspiracy theories are backfiring, exposing vulnerabilities in his political strategy.

  "Trump is maybe now starting to become that lame duck." — Matt Lewis [54:34]

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Insights on the Idaho Four Case with Vicki Ward
[35:31] Vicki Ward:
Vicki Ward introduces her investigative work on the Idaho Four case, drawing parallels between systemic power abuses and the Epstein scandal.

• Personal Motivation and Investigative Journey:
  [36:10] Vicki Ward:
  She shares her personal connection to the tragedy, highlighting the emotional and investigative impetus behind her book, The Idaho Four: An American Tragedy, co-authored with James Patterson.

  "I have twin sons who are 22 years old, the same age as the victims... I wanted to get the answers." — Vicki Ward [36:10]

• Societal and Institutional Failures:
  [43:03] Vicki Ward:
  Vicki critiques Washington State University’s handling of Bryan Kohberger’s behavior, questioning institutional accountability and the fine line between free speech and dangerous rhetoric.

  "What's the difference between the James Patterson thriller and this? It turns out that you don't.*" — Vicki Ward [38:40]

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Conclusion and Call for Transparency
Jim Acosta wraps up the episode by emphasizing the need for transparency and accountability in both the Epstein case and broader systemic abuses of power. He urges listeners to demand answers and remain vigilant against potential government cover-ups.

"Don't give into the lies. Don't give into fear. Hold on to the truth. And hope." — Jim Acosta (Closing)

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Key Takeaways:

• Mark Epstein raises significant doubts about the official account of Jeffrey Epstein's death, citing autopsy inconsistencies and security lapses.
• Vicki Ward connects Epstein’s death to broader issues of power abuse and governmental transparency, highlighting systemic failures.
• Matt Lewis explores the political ramifications, particularly focusing on Donald Trump’s defensive maneuvers and the impact on his support base.
• The episode underscores a critical call for continued investigation and transparency to uncover the truth behind Epstein’s death and related cover-ups.

Notable Quotes:

• "They couldn't call it a suicide because it looked too much like a homicide." — Mark Epstein [02:54]
• "Why, if this was a suicide, why the secrecy?" — Mark Epstein [04:23]
• "This is a problem for every citizen of the United States to know that an American citizen looks like was killed in a federal prison and the government's trying to cover it up." — Mark Epstein [19:41]
• "Trump is maybe now starting to become that lame duck." — Matt Lewis [54:34]
• "Don't give into the lies. Don't give into fear. Hold on to the truth. And hope." — Jim Acosta (Closing)

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Further Listening: Listeners are encouraged to explore Vicki Ward’s book, The Idaho Four: An American Tragedy, and Matt Lewis’s political columns on Substack for more in-depth analysis and investigative reporting on these critical issues.

Transcript

[Vicki Ward]

Foreign.

[Jim Acosta]

Welcome, everybody, to the Jim Acosta Show. I am coming to you live from Colorado. And so, yes, don't have my usual studio behind me. And if it seems like, you know, I'm at the airport, it's because I'm at the airport. I wanted to bring this to you earlier today, had some travel issues and so here I am. But you know what, the news doesn't stop and neither does the show and neither does our quest for the truth when it comes to the Jeffrey Epstein case, as we've been calling it, Epstein Gate, ever since the Department of Justice about a week ago or so released that Department of Justice memo that basically attempted to sweep all of this under the rug. I have a special guest. I was a little bit, I guess I was a little bit shady in terms of who I was going to have on this afternoon, keeping my cards close to the vest. But I'm going to bring on now Mark Epstein. He is the brother of Jeffrey Epstein. Mark has asked that we not show his face, but we are going to bring his voice to you so you can hear from him. Mark, can you hear me?

[Mark Epstein]

Yes, I can.

[Jim Acosta]

Mark, thank you very much for joining us. We really appreciate it. I guess, first of all, just to jump right into this, your thoughts on how all of this has been handled since I guess it was a week ago Sunday when the Department of Justice released that memo that tried to make the case that your brother was not murdered, that he committed suicide and that there basically was no grand conspiracy and that they weren't planning on putting out any kind of files or list, despite what Pam, Bonnie, the attorney general said. Your thoughts on all of that and we'll catch up on some other things.

[Mark Epstein]

Well, as I, as I told you, my major concern is the circumstances around my brother's, what I can now refer to as his murder. I used to say his death. But ever since he died, the government has been covering things up, not giving information. And it begs the question, if this purely was a suicide, why are they being so secretive and why am I getting the runaround? One thing that they don't mention, and it's very important is that when after Jeffrey died the next day they did an autopsy. The autopsy was performed by Dr. Roman, who was a New York City pathologist. And I had Dr. Barton there to witness the autopsy because I have the right to have a pathologist there. And they both came out of the autopsy room saying they couldn't call it a suicide because it looked too much like a homicide. And that's a picture of Jeffrey, cell door that you just put up.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. Show us what we're looking at here, Mark.

[Mark Epstein]

Okay, that's the cell door in the. In the shoe. It's the maximum security tier of the. That was Jeffrey's cell after he died. They put, you know, do not the police tape on it. But that's his cell door, which you do not see in the video that they released. Because to get to that cell door, you have to first enter the maximum security tier. Do you have that? Could you put up that picture with the staircase and the door to the tier?

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah, we'll try to put that up. We have that picture and.

[Mark Epstein]

Okay, so.

[Jim Acosta]

We can put it up. Yeah.

[Mark Epstein]

Okay. You don't hear mention that the actual autopsy, when it was performed by Dr. Roman, with Dr. Bottom there, they came out saying they could not call this a suicide because it looked too much like a homicide. And on the initial death certificate that day, on cause of death, it says pending further investigation, because to them professionals, it looked like a homicide. And then a few days later, Dr. Sampson, the chief medical examiner, she calls it a suicide without any explanation of what further study was done. Bear in mind, she never saw the body. She wasn't at the autopsy. So what is she basing that conclusion on? And she won't speak to anybody about that. It's like, why, if this was a suicide, why the secrecy?

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah, that's my question, too. I don't understand this. And, you know, for the longest time, I think a lot of folks were not really paying as close attention to this case as they should have, because the government did put out the line that. That this was a suicide. But I talked to Julie Brown, an investigative journalist with Miami Herald. Last week, I talked to Tara Paul, Mary, another investigative journalist, and they both say that there's reason to believe. And I think they. They point to the medical examiner that you were with, Mark, that there's reason to believe that this was a homicide. And there's the picture of the staircase that you mentioned leading up to the cell. What are we looking at here?

[Mark Epstein]

Okay, that's through that barred door at the top of the stair. That's the tier, the maximum security tier that Jeffrey's cell was on. So to go to Jeffrey cell, you have to go up that staircase, enter through that barred door. And Jeffrey's cell was to the right of that door. When you enter that tier, it's like a long corridor, and there are four cells on either side. If you show the other photograph I sent to you, it's a picture of the Tier itself basically standing when you enter that door. It's a picture of the tier. You see three cells on each side. The closest one's not visible. Jeffrey, cell is on to the right side. Right? That's the tier. And if you look at the far wall of that tier, there's a camera on that wall pointing at you. So anything that took place on that tier would be captured by that camera on the far wall. But as we all know, that camera wasn't working that night.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. What do you make of that? Yeah, Mark. I mean, apparently we don't have that camera. And it's footage from that night. There's apparently an interruption in some of the other footage. I mean, just, you know, there's also the issue of the blankets and the pillows and the mattresses being in the, in the cell. Apparently that wasn't standard operating procedure. It's just a lot of stuff here that doesn't add up.

[Mark Epstein]

I, I know. And in the video they showed a guy walking. And you can't see that, that. You can't make out that if that's Jeffrey. I don't think it is. It doesn't look like the way he walked. And if you, I try to blow it up, you can't see who that person is. And they said they walked him over and he went into his cell. Now, from the pictures I just showed you, you can't just walk over and walk into a cell. You have to go up the stairs and you have to go through that bar door you have then Jeffrey Seldor was to the right. So it's not as simple as just walking through a door. So that's why when I first saw that, I said, that's not where Jeffrey was, that's not what his situation was. So it's, it's one. And then the other thing that really got to me is when Keshe Patel came out, you know, recently in a hearing and he, you know, he listed his credentials and then he said, you know, you know, with suicide, when you see it, and my. I laughed. I mean, how many suicides has this guy seen? And what's his expertise? He's not a pathologist, he's not a doctor.

[Jim Acosta]

Right.

[Mark Epstein]

I joked and I said, what does he have a boy scan merit badge, you know, in first aid, you know, and Dr. Barden, who has done about 500 autopsies over the last 50 some odd years that he's been doing this, you know, he has done prison autopsies for 50 years. And Dr. Roman, who this was not her first autopsy. I don't know how many she's done. But they both professional forensic pathologists came out saying to them, this looks like a homicide, not a suicide. That's not mentioned in the Justice Department report at all. And that's also why not.

[Jim Acosta]

And why is it, do you think, that Pam Bonney, the attorney General, saying back in February, I have the client list on my desk. And then, you know, she says the other day in the Cabinet meeting with Trump, oh, I was talking about the files. There's no way the Epstein files else could possibly fit on her desk. As we know, it's a treasure trove of information. And so, I mean, what do you make of what Pam Bonney has been saying?

[Mark Epstein]

Well, like I said, I'm not that concerned with his case. I'm not a prosecutor, I'm not a defense attorney. But it seems like all of Trump lackeys will say anything they can to please him and try to squash this whole issue. And, yeah, I use the word lackeys because that's what everyone calls them when they talk to me.

[Jim Acosta]

Well, and then there's the matter of Trump himself. I mean, I'm sure you saw this over the weekend. He put out this lengthy statement on truth, you know, all but begging his supporters as loyalists to give up on this case, to stop focusing on this case. He was standing up for fan Bonnie and so on. What did you think of that when you saw that?

[Mark Epstein]

Well, honestly, I did not actually see that. I'm, I've been traveling the last week, so I've been on the road. I haven't seen it. I've heard about it a lot. And to me, it's sort of like, well, I'm not surprised because, you know, assuming if Jeffrey was murdered, who was responsible and who are these people covering up for? People are telling me that it points to Trump. Someone should ask him what he knows about this.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah, well, if we get the chance to ask him, we'll certainly ask him. But Mark. And for folks who are just tuning in, I'm talking to Mark Epstein, the brother of Jeffrey Epstein. And Mark, what about this relationship between Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein? We've seen all the photographs. They're all over social media. People have seen those for years. Your thoughts on that? I know that they described each other as being very close friends for a long period of time.

[Mark Epstein]

They were good friends. They used to fly back and forth to Florida on each other's planes. I'm not going to say frequently, but certainly a lot more than once. And they used to hang out. And I know in the early 90s, Donald was in Jeffrey's office quite a bit when he was in financial trouble. He was talking to Jeffrey a lot. You know, Jeffrey would tell me if something funny happened. I mean, that's. He was my brother, so, you know, we would relate funny stories to each other. He would tell me things, you know, with Donald that might have been funny because he said Donald was a funny guy. And initially they had fun hanging out together, but then the relationship soured. And, you know, I. I was once with them together when we flew up from Florida. And this was back in 1999, before any of this trouble started. But they. Yeah, they were good friends. I know Trump is trying to distance himself from that, but they were good friends.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. I mean, what do you make of that? Because now he calls him a creep and he says all of these things about your brother now. But, I mean, if you look at the footage of them together, we've seen them dancing together on the dance floor. And, I mean, I think Donald Trump told New York magazine back in 2002 about how they were good friends and talked about Jeffrey's taste in women, as a matter of fact, in young ladies. And as it turns out, it was obviously more than that. But, you know, do you think that there's any chance that. That Trump is in these files in a way that he doesn't want to see that information get out? And is he possibly motivated. Motivated by all of this? I mean, it sure seems to me he's motivated by all of this and trying to keep this swept under the rug.

[Mark Epstein]

Well, it sounds plausible to me. I mean, your listeners, their opinion on this is just as valid as mine, and I wasn't there. I don't know what exactly took place, but I do know that Jeffrey told me he had dirt on Trump. I don't know what that was. But in the 2016 election, he said, you know, if he said what he knew, they'd have to cancel the election. So that's a direct quote. So I don't know.

[Jim Acosta]

Is that serious?

[Mark Epstein]

Yeah. And also at the time, if you recall, Steve. Steve Bannon said that the only person he feared for, for Donald Trump's sake was Jeffrey Epstein.

[Jim Acosta]

And so what does that mean? Did you. Yeah, no, I remember that. But do you have any sense of what any of that means? I mean, is it one of those things where we just have to do the math ourselves and we can sort of draw our own conclusions? And I. I suppose that's enough to go to Trump and Say, what gives? What's with all this?

[Mark Epstein]

Yeah, go to Ask Trump. What does Jeffrey Epstein. Why was Steve Bannon afraid of Jeffrey Epstein? What did Jeffrey Epstein know that made Steve Bannon afraid? That's a question I would ask. I think. I think your listeners would want to answer the same question.

[Jim Acosta]

I think everybody wants to know now. I mean, Trump, maybe you saw the footage of him in the Cabinet meeting. When somebody asked the question, he tried to shut that down. I will tell. I mean, I've been around him for a long time over the years. I've been up close with them. I think I know when he's worried. And it looked to me he was freaking out the other day in the Cabinet meeting. And if you look at that Truth Social post, which goes on about three pages, he's just obviously freaking out over this case. And to me, it just begs the question, what does he know? What's the deal? It's like the old Watergate question. What does the President know? What did the President know? When did he know it? And if he had anything to do with directing the Department of Justice to release that memo, obviously then the questions come back to the White House. Do you think that this is ever. I mean, do you think, do you think that Donald Trump could possibly be behind what happened to your brother? Does that thought ever cross your mind? I know you mentioned something along these lines to Don.

[Mark Epstein]

I would not dismiss that possibility because, you know, like I said, the people that are making all this sting, like Bill Barr initially, Cash Patel, Pam Bunny, who do they work for? They work for Donald Trump. So, you know, let's, let's assume, you know, like I said, I don't like to speculate, but if you go. Want to go down that road, assume Trump was responsible, okay, well, then he has his Justice Department cover it up, because who else would be responsible that would have the power and the be in a position to have the Justice Department, you know, skewer the facts? You know, when you read the Justice Department report, there's a lot of inaccuracies in there, you know, about the way Jeffrey was found. And the autopsy doesn't match the way they described Jeffrey hanging. I mean, for four years, almost four years, we were trying to find out what position Jeffrey was in when he was found. We could never find that out until the Justice Department report came out. And it seems that it really doesn't match the results of the autopsy.

[Jim Acosta]

Right. Was there also an issue of how he apparently, how it was described that he hung himself? I'm not going to stipulate that he did because we just don't know for sure. But how it was stipulated that he hung himself, that, that apparently there might have been some flaws in that story too. Can you elaborate on that?

[Mark Epstein]

Well, yeah, it's, it's, this is public information. It's in the Justice Department report. They said when he was found he was in a seated position with his legs extended in front of him and he was hanging from the top bunk in the cell. And when they either cut him down or tore him down, they said his buttocks was an inch or an inch and a half off the ground, which means the bulk of his body weight was hanging by the neck. Now, if you sit in that position with your feet extended, you have about 20 pounds of weight on your feet. And Dr. Baden tells me the head weighs about 13 pounds. So there was about 150 pounds hanging on this ligature or with the head, 160 some odd pounds hanging on the ligature. First of all, I questioned whether that ligature made out of a bed sheet could support that weight. I've actually was able to purchase some liens from prisons and tested it, and it's real. It's questionable whether a 6 inch strip of that fabric could hold all that weight. And then if that's the way he was hanging, the mark on his neck, you know, that was left in his neck should be high up under his chin and go up behind his ears. You know, like if you make believe, you know, when you're kids, you lift your necktie up behind your head. But the mark on Jeffrey's neck is sort of in the center of his neck and goes straight back, more like a strangulation than a hanging. Also, the way he was hanging, and we know he was dead for at least two hours before he was found. They could tell that by the mark that was left in his neck. Probably more than two hours, but at least two hours. Well, in that case, he should have what's called lividity on the back of his legs and his buttocks. You know, when you die, your blood stops circulating and then it just sinks in your body. Gravity takes it down to the lowest points and you get like a blotchiness in the skin, sort of like a. Looks like sort of like a port wine stain. And the back of his legs, his buttocks, should have signs of lividity in it really doesn't. There are signs of livid on his upper back, you know, so all these questions don't make sense. All these situations don't really Add up.

[Jim Acosta]

And Mark, do you think we're ever going to. Yeah. Do you think we're ever going to get to the truth in all of this?

[Mark Epstein]

Oh, I have no idea. I'd like to. I mean, yeah, somebody knows because, you.

[Jim Acosta]

Know, for the longest time, I mean, Trump was saying, release the Epstein files. J.D. vance was saying, release the Epstein files. Cash Patel, the FBI director, for Pete's sake, saying, release the Epstein files. Bongino, you know, and apparently he was, you know, threatening to quit his position at the FBI over the last few days. And Trump came out over the weekend and said, no, no, that's been patched up. That's not going to happen now. I mean, this is. I've never seen anything like this before.

[Mark Epstein]

Isn't that this government's M.O. you know, the way they operate, they say they're going to do something and then the two weeks go by, it doesn't happen. They just keep saying things that sound good, but there's no follow through. So am I surprised? Absolutely not. Because this is, this is the pattern of this administration.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah, well, and I know that you haven't read Trump's note from over the weekend, his Truth Social post, but he now is claiming that the Epstein files are a fake, that they were written by Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton. I mean, he's trying pretty hard to pull the wool over the eyes of his supporters, it seems to me. And when he's saying ridiculous things like that, I mean, do you have any sense that they're Democratic people behind writing this thing or covering it up or.

[Mark Epstein]

Well, let me ask you a question. First of all, he was arrested under the Republican administration. The Democrats had nothing to do with that. And if everything's doesn't exist and there's no, there's no list and there's no file and there's nothing there, why was he in jail?

[Jim Acosta]

Right. Obviously there was a case. Obviously there was a file. Well, and it just sounds to me though that you're left with, I mean, obviously with maybe more questions now than ever before, because I know before you were trying to prove that it was a murder and that it was covered up. But now when you have the President of the United States try, you know, who once said, release the Epstein files, declassify whatever, now putting himself in front of those files, this takes on a whole new dimension.

[Mark Epstein]

It seems to me, Jim, you know, this is not just my problem. This is a problem for every citizen of the United States to know that an American citizen looks like was killed in a federal prison and the government's trying to cover it up. That should be of concern to all the citizens, not just me, because I'm his brother. I'm concerned because I'm a citizen. And I don't think that should take place in my country. No matter what party you're in, you got to say, this should take place here.

[Jim Acosta]

This shouldn't be taking place. There's no question about it. And, you know, your sense of where, where should the trail lead next? What would you like to see uncovered next? What, what is it that stands out to you? If there's one thing that just stands out to you that needs to be investigated, what would you, where would you tell investigators?

[Mark Epstein]

The first thing I would like to see is what I've asked for after the death. I, you know, Bill Barr referred to the tape that he saw. He said nobody went in or out of the tier, and that convinced him it was a suicide. You know, forget about the fact that there were 12 other prisoners on the tier that could have killed somebody. But I've asked for the tape from that camera from 10 o' clock the night before until noon the next day, because that would show when the last person left that tier, about 10:30 at night or so when they locked up the tier. It would also show in the morning when Michael Thomas, the guard, went into the tier. You know, that's when he found Jeffrey's body. And it would show when they took Jeffrey's body off the tier. We see who was there, who was, you know, what condition he was in, how they handled this. And when I first asked for that, I was told I couldn't get that footage because it was an ongoing investigation. And I understand that they keep it, you know, under wraps. But then after the investigation was over, I asked for that footage again. And I was very specific, talking about the camera that showed the door, the footage that Bill Barr referred to, footage from that camera. And then I was told, well, the two cameras that were working don't show that area. First I couldn't get it because it was under investigation, and now it doesn't exist. And now they release a tape claiming to be the footage from that camera. Again, it just boggles the mind how stupid it is that this is where we ended up. Someone's lying somewhere.

[Jim Acosta]

Somebody's lying somewhere. There's no question about it. Well, Mark, I appreciate you taking the time and jumping on the phone with us. And we're showing these pictures again, these photographs again that you sent to us. We're going to stay on it. If you can think of anything else that you want to raise? You're welcome to come back on my program anytime. To me, I have to say, for the longest time, I thought this was really just sort of a fixation of people on the far right and the fringe and so on. But the more, you know, I look at this, the more that I know other respected investigative journalists look at this. Just doesn't smell right. And now that Trump is trying to get in the way of it, I just doesn't make any sense to me. And it makes. It seems to me he's up to something here.

[Mark Epstein]

Yeah. Everyone who looks at all the information available of the bulk of it comes to the same conclusion.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah, something stinks. Yeah. Well, Mark Epstein, thank you very much for your time. I appreciate it.

[Mark Epstein]

My safe travels.

[Jim Acosta]

All right. You as well. I appreciate it. Yeah, I doing my best to travel safe. I'm in Colorado right now, so. Folks, notice that the backdrop behind me is a little different. That was Mark Epstein, the brother of Jeffrey Epstein, joining us on the phone. He's traveling right now. He sent us those photographs. I want to go to Vicki Ward, investigative journalist Vicki Ward. Vicki and I were colleagues a long time ago. There's Vicki right there. Vicki, how are you? Good to see you.

[Vicki Ward]

Hey, Jim.

[Jim Acosta]

I'm sorry that this is a little bit fly by the seat of our pants. But you know what? That's what you do when you're on the trail of a good story. And my hat's off to you, Vicky, because I know you've investigated this story for many, many years. You have a new book out, which I want to get into, which to me looks fascinating. You did this, of course, with the great James Patterson, the Idaho Four, An American Tragedy. It's. It's your book on the murders that were carried out by Brian Kohberger. And I want to talk about that in a few moments. But, but you're. I was just talking to Mark Epstein about this. I'm sure you heard some of that, your thoughts on all of this. I mean, are you of the same mindset that. That this doesn't forgive me for asking questions? If you don't want to answer a question, just say, I don't want to answer that. You're a great journalist, and I don't want to lead you in any directions you want to go. What are your questions? Right. I'll just start there. Generally speaking, do you have questions about this? And what do you make of Trump's just sort of odd behavior over the last couple of weeks?

[Vicki Ward]

So here Is the problem about Jeffrey Epstein is that the whole story of his life and death raises questions about systems of power? Right. Why was he protected in 2008? Why did he get a cushy jail sentence? What was the real deal with the money? How much money did he really wind up stealing from his rich benefactors who only talked about it when sort of they were forced to? I'm thinking about Leslie Wexner, all of his international, foreign. You know, this is a man who walked the corridor of power, not just in this country, but at the apex between Africa, the Gulf states, Israel, England, the British royal family, Libya. Here he was. You know, people talk about Mossad, but actually when you have that kind of a Rolodex, when you can get to presidents, when you can get to the British royal family, when you've got the Israeli former prime Minister coming to stay, you've got the Saudi crown prince, you don't need to be on somebody's payroll. You're what's called a hyper connector. And there's no question in this country he was, I mean, the. Is the Israel's richest supporter in America was Jeffrey Epstein's chief backer. And he was in the White House when Bill Clinton. You know, I mean, there are all these questions, and it's about systems of power. So I think for this administration to have promised that they were going to come clean, be transparent about everything around Jeffrey Epstein, to then say, well, actually, there's nothing there. I mean, that's just absurd. You know, I think if you're going to ask me, Jim. No, you know, I knew Jeffrey Epstein. Unfortunately, this is not. He, he was not the kind of guy to keep an Excel spreadsheet of people he might be blackmailing recording. That was not his style. You know, people look at the black book that belonged to Ghislaine Maxwell. It never belonged. That was not who Jeffrey Epstein was. So did. Was there some file where he kept a record of powerful people? I am very sure that did not exist. And I'm sure Pam Bondi misspoke, which, you know, which you can. Why, why did she misspeak? So, but, but is there a huge amount of documentation that relates to the discovery around all the civil litigation and all the, the, the, the, the, the federal lawsuits? Of course there is. And do we know that there's a ton there that we haven't already seen? Yes, we do. Do we know that Jeffrey Epstein silenced rich and powerful guys? You know, back. I mean, I went back and looked at my own reporting, Jim. I made a, a Podcast series called Chasing G for Audible in 2019. And we made a documentary of the podcast for Discovery, also called Chasing Ghis. And in it, Alan Derwitz, who was one of Jeffrey Epstein's dream team of lawyers when he, he managed to get the sweetheart deal in Florida, it goes on record. And he says to me that when in 2014, Virginia Jaffrey, Virginia Roberts started to come, she joined a class action suit and started to say that Jeffrey Epstein had not only trafficked her, but had pimped her out to these, to these other men. That Jeffrey Epstein got on the phone to Alan Dershowitz and said, please. And Alan Dershowitz fought back, and they ended up settling the lawsuit.

[Jim Acosta]

Right.

[Vicki Ward]

Jeffrey Epstein said to Alan, please, could you not fight? I will cover your costs. I just want silence. Alan Dershowitz said, no, no, no, I'm not gonna do that. But, but, but he goes on record, says there were a large number of other men who let Jeffrey Epstein pay their legal bills and anything for a quiet life. So given that we know all of this, why, why doesn't Pan Bondi just say, okay, everyone here is the massive, massive document dump. Everyone, knock yourself, go and look at it. Why not?

[Jim Acosta]

That's the question. I mean, to me, that's the question. And Donald Trump, I mean, himself, out on the campaign trail, you know, back in 2024, wasn't that long ago, said, you know, sure, I'll declassify them or I'll release them, and so on. J.D. vance was saying it, Cash Patel was saying it, and now it's just, it's a complete reversal of all of those positions.

[Vicki Ward]

Yes. And the problem is that it feels like the people who stand to lose are the very richest and most powerful people in this country. So it's not a good look for Donald Trump.

[Jim Acosta]

That's right.

[Vicki Ward]

MAGA populace to appear to be protecting the deep state. Which is, you know, which is exactly.

[Jim Acosta]

Why what he's always railed against exactly.

[Vicki Ward]

Raised its head in the first place.

[Jim Acosta]

No, so it's so true. And what do you make of what Mark Epstein thinks that his, that his brother was murdered.

[Vicki Ward]

So I know that Reid Weingarten, who was one of Epstein's attorneys, struggled with this for a while. And he, Reid spoke to Jeffrey Epstein the day before he was found dead. And I know that he, he, he was skeptical about it for a long time, skeptical that Jeffrey Epstein would have committed suicide because he seriously believed that he had gone in and said to Epstein, they, he thought they had a good, good case and that he could get him off and that Epstein had perked up and that, I mean, this harks back to the fact that, you know, there was a non prosecution agreement that had been struck and whether or not the terms of that would have been binding.

[Jim Acosta]

Right.

[Vicki Ward]

So I know, you know, Jeffrey Epstein's own attorney had grave question marks about it for a long, long time. But also I do know that Reid, after a year or so went by, we were in close touch. I mean, I, I, he, he kind of flip flopped on it. I, you know, it was, Jeffrey Epstein left this earth the way he lived on this earth, surrounded by mystery and questions. And you know, I mean, it's extraordinary. Set of coincidences, right?

[Jim Acosta]

Totally.

[Vicki Ward]

Right. I mean, it's just, it's, it's extraordinary. And I remembered, I remember doing my best to try and find prison guards and it was very, you know, it's quite hard for people to vanish.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. Well, the other, the other, the other, you know, part of this is the Trump part of this and they had this relationship for many years. I mean, Mark Epstein was saying, he's repeated this before that, you know, he says that his brother told him if I told all about what I know about Donald Trump, they would have canceled the 2016 election. It was, I guess he was referring to. And you know, and Steve Bannon reportedly had said the one person that he fears was, was Jeffrey Epstein. Of course, he was the campaign Guru back in 2016. What about all of that?

[Vicki Ward]

I mean, yeah, So I think, Is.

[Jim Acosta]

It again, is it again?

[Vicki Ward]

Well, so mystery. Yeah. So this is where this Epstein is so hard because he was a master manipulator. He never knew if a word of truth was coming out of his mouth.

[Jim Acosta]

So, I mean, we're talking about Jeffrey Epstein.

[Vicki Ward]

Yes, Jeffrey Epstein, yes. And so, you know, I'm sure he would have said all of that to the people around him. Whether or not it was true, who knows. But again, Donald Trump has never been transparent about his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein and why they fell out. And my question is, why not? You know, why not? Why not? What does he have to lose? There's been these reports about falling out over a piece of real estate. I mean, I've heard everything by now. Reports that Epstein thought Donald Trump was, when he bought the property, he was buying it with somebody else's, a foreigner's money, and therefore it was money laundering. I mean, you know, Trump's never addressed that. I've got no reason to think, you know, I mean, you know, again, Jeffrey Epstein was kind of amazing.

[Jim Acosta]

He's Got, he's skated by this all these years and he gets asked a couple of questions here and there and.

[Vicki Ward]

Yeah, and here's the thing, Jim, on this particular question, you know, Trump appears to be, I mean, a bit late, but on the right side of history. Okay. I mean, he's not like Leon Black who, you know, discovered, you know, suddenly it emerged, paying Jeffrey Epstein 168 million dol. Dollars. Trump, you know, appears to have distanced himself from Jeffrey.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah.

[Vicki Ward]

At the right time. So why not therefore be open about it? I mean, Trump is prepared to be a lot of, a lot of subjects. So I, you know, I, I, I.

[Jim Acosta]

Think the way he flipped out on that reporter the other day, I mean, that was right. I, for the first time I said, well, what's this all about? I mean.

[Vicki Ward]

Right.

[Jim Acosta]

You know, it's just thought, my goodness. Well, let's talk, let's talk about your book and because, I mean, to me, this is the other case that's been hanging out there for the last several years that people are just obsessed with the Bryan Coburger case. What made you decide to write this book? And I'll tell you, I was getting through the beginning of the book and what I thought, and I've covered this some on my old show and, and one of the things that strikes me about this is that they just don't have cases like this.

[Vicki Ward]

Right.

[Jim Acosta]

In, in this part of Idaho. You talk about this in the book with James Patterson, that, okay, they would have maybe a teenager who freezes to death. He gets drunk at a, at a keg party and freezes to death. Or maybe there's a love triangle thing where somebody's murdered or that sort of thing. But not this.

[Vicki Ward]

No.

[Jim Acosta]

And what, what drew you to this story? Because to me it is, it's, first of all, it's heartbreaking. When I see the pictures of those kids, my heart absolutely breaks. They're just beautiful kids and just in the prime of their life. But also, it's just, it's just strange that something like this would happen in this part of the country.

[Vicki Ward]

Yeah. So you're right. I mean, it's a big departure for me because normally I write about corruption and power systems, hence Jeffrey Epstein.

[Jim Acosta]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Vicki Ward]

But this book is very, is much more personal. And you know, my, so I have twin sons who are 22 years old, exact same age as the victims. They were both in college, different colleges when this happened. I, if you remember, it happened right before Thanksgiving in 2022. And you know, I, I, and we kept Seeing these scenes of Moscow, Idaho. And I'd never heard of Moscow, but it looked sort of.

[Jim Acosta]

Me neither. Yeah.

[Vicki Ward]

Ironically, this picture card, perfect then covered with snow. Little town where this absolutely appalling thing. I mean, it doesn't get worse for young at college, students knifed in their beds. And you sort of saw the police chief who would later become. I'd become very close to. But, you know, look, just looking perplexed and harassed and overwhelmed in those press conferences. And, you know, the weeks dragged on, and suddenly all the kids were back from college for Christmas, and they still had no idea who did it. And I sort of just couldn't get it out of my head. And then when they made the arrest and you had a. You had a guy who in a weird way was also a college student, PhD, Criminology student from the east coast, who seemed to have overcome a heroin addiction, you know, poverty, and. And you would have thought would have been at the apex of career, of his career, having yet done something this horrendous, you know, that also raised. I'm the mother of sons. It raised questions for me that I know, dark ones. But I wanted to get the answers. And, you know, James Patterson and I have worked together before, funnily enough, on Jeffrey Epstein. And there was something about it that spoke to him as well. And I thought. I knew that the. The place, Idaho would be a part of the story. And I felt that the way Jim tells stories, you know, very sort of novelistic, very personal, would be.

[Jim Acosta]

Oh, when I started reading this, it felt like I was writing a novel. Yeah, exactly.

[Vicki Ward]

And so I felt that it would actually, it was the right. It was the right narrative for us to partner on. And, you know, and he. He. Right at the beginning, he said, you know, Vicky, we're not going to do this, like, as if we were reporting for the New York Times. You know, we're gonna. We're gonna feel like we're there. We're gonna feel like we know the people. It's going to be emotional. And. And I think that, you know, he asked me the other day, what's the difference between one of. What's the difference between the James Patterson thriller and this? And I think that you read a Patterson thriller because you don't. You want to know what's going to happen next? The Idaho 4. People think they know what this story is about, but you turn the pages because actually it turns out that you don't. And that narrative suspense.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. And. And I guess one of the challenges. We already know what happens I suppose.

[Vicki Ward]

Right. But we don't know. Yeah, you don't know, but you don't know the why. And I mean, several things. You know, the book is called the Idaho Four and, you know, really is, I think, the only sort of definitive account that tells you about the lives and the personalities of the. Your four young people who were lost so that they get to live on and not be forgotten. I think it does give you the clearest account yet of why Brian Kohberger reached a sort of point of no return. I mean, his. His views on women were heinous. And for whatever reason, once he got to Washington State University, his inability to keep those views to himself basically unraveled his career in a matter of weeks. I mean, he was continually being pulled in front of the administration because he was unable to control, you know, his, his attitude and behavior towards women, both in the classroom and out of it. And by the time he got to the night of the murders, he knew that his. He was done. I mean, he'd lost. He was going to lose the funding for his PhD. He'd been effectively already fired as a teaching assistant, and he had done it to himself. But there is a very creepy scene in the book where he offers a fellow classmate, he gives him a lift, and he tells this guy in the car, you know, I. I could have any woman I want. I could walk into any bar and have any woman I want. And then. And he tells him that, you know, his view of women is that they should sort of be kept in the bedroom and the kitchen, all of, you know, and, and, oh boy. Yeah. And. And at one point, the guy, his classmate, actually begins to be so concerned about Bryan Kohberger that he starts to type out a form, a care form to give to the administration. And then some co burger is so creepy that he deletes it because he, he feels that if Coburger ever found out who had sent in this form, that there could be trouble. So, you know, in a weird way that the book also gets into the issues of the First Amendment. Interesting on campuses because this, I mean, one of the things that I know the families, the parents did want answers to and were hoping that they might get answers to had this thing gone to trial was how much did Washington State University see and should they have done anything? There were red flags. And we come back to this question. When does free speech become dangerous? And what should universities do about it?

[Jim Acosta]

And I think the other duty. To warn the public. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Vicki Ward]

And I think the other thing that's interesting you know, you mentioned Idaho, the, the, the town, the liberal college town of Moscow, which I come to really love and many friends there. You know, that was. There's a backstory in the book that was simmering with tension when the murders happened. And the murder. Murders really sort of flung it apart and, and sort of neighbor began to mistrust neighbor, friend turned on friend. And that's because there was a very conservative church. There is a very conservative church in Moscow. Stated mission is to evangelize the town. The church had refused to mask during COVID and lawsuits were flying and there was a lot of ill will between law enforcement and members of the church. So when the murders happened and for six weeks it looked as if the police didn't have a clue as to what they were doing. That, that sort of became politically weaponized, if you will.

[Jim Acosta]

Interesting. Well, I mean, Vicki, I'm hooked already. I'm going to keep reading what, what you and James have put together here. It's a fascinating story. And I suspect, though, that you may have another book to work on here in the near future on this, this Jeffrey Epstein mystery that was just blown wide open again. My goodness.

[Vicki Ward]

Told me, Jim, if you had told me back in 2002 when, you know, I was first assigned to write about this guy, I was pregnant with my twin sons. He was such a creep. He was such a creep. And if you had told me that I, 23 years later, would still be thinking about this man, I, A, wouldn't have believed you and B, I would have. I mean, it wouldn't have. I would have been so appalled. I wouldn't have born thinking about. But anyway, here we are.

[Jim Acosta]

Here we are. Well, let's keep the conversation going because I have a feeling that there are more twists and turns to come despite the best efforts of the White House. But the book is the Idaho Four, An American Tragedy, written by the great James Patterson and the great Vicky Ward. Vicki, it's great to catch up with you again. We were colleagues, and then we weren't colleagues and we get. Now we're colleagues on Substack. So this is great, too.

[Vicki Ward]

There you go. Thank you, Jim, very much.

[Jim Acosta]

Thanks, Vicki. All right, best of luck. Check out Vicki's book. It's going to be. Everybody's going to be picking that one up. Let me go quickly to Matt Lewis because I've been keeping him on standby. Political columnist Matt Lewis always has his finger on the pulse of what is happening in our, in our political world these days. And one of the reasons why I wanted to bring on Matt is. Matt has a column just out today in the Hill and he also, I mean, I almost feel like, Matt, you and I basically wrote the same column in response to what I've been calling Trump's freak out over the Epstein files and the way the whole administration just sort of freaked out. I mean, something is up. I don't know what is going on, but like over the weekend, I mean, I should just at least point this out just to give a little bit of news as part of the show. The Washington Post reporting on this. Attendees of Turning Point USA Student Action Summit erupted in booze over the Trump administration's handling of the files related to Jeffrey Epstein, the deceased child predator. I mean, they were booing at that conference, at the Turning Point conference. Your thoughts on all of this. I'm sorry I made you wait all day. As you can see, I'm at the airport in Colorado and it was planes, trains and automobiles. I was looking for jobs. John Candy was one of those days. But my God, it almost feels like planes, trains and automobiles. Catching up with this Jeffrey Epstein. It feels like a cover up. I'm just going to say it, it feels like a damn cover up.

[Matt Lewis]

Well, like first, it's stunning, Jim, as you know, I mean, this is a guy, Donald Trump, who was found liable for sexual abuse, a guy who was impeached twice, one time for inciting a Capitol riot, a guy who just bombed Iran. I mean, we could go down the list of things he's done that might have outraged his base, might have alienated some of his sycophantic support borders. And this seems to be it. This is the one. He did a million crazy bad things. But this is different. And part of why it's different is he always, before he could change the subject, he could distract us, you know, I'm gonna take away Rosie o' Donnell's citizenship and everyone would follow him. And it didn't work this time.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah, no, it didn't work this time. And the way he, he just sort of flew off the handle when the reporter asked the question the other day. And then this, what is a three page truth social post that he put out over the weekend. And it almost felt like he was trying to gravitate back towards his greatest hits of saying that this was a fake and it was put out by Obama and Hillary Clinton. It was almost like his conspiracy theories were colliding with one another in a way that was just sort of clumsy and dotardly, you know what I mean? He just sort of like not really in command of the conspiracy theories anymore. And I just, it just, something doesn't feel right.

[Matt Lewis]

Just something's definitely different, right? And Donald Trump, look, he created this monster. He, you know, he's launched his modern, his modern political career based off of the birther conspiracy theory. He obviously perpetuated the QAnon controversies, which I think are adjacent to the Jeffrey Epstein story. And maybe now it's finally coming back to bite him. He has fostered this environment. And I think part of the story here is that, look, some of the MAGA base are obviously Trump cultists. They're not whatever Trump says they will be with him. But I think some of these folks are true believers. Like, to their credit, they are earnestly conspiracy theorists. But who could blame them in this case? There is something weird here, right? I mean, I don't think you have to be a tinfoil hat wearing person to think, isn't it weird that there are all these pictures of Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein? Isn't it weird that Epstein was on suicide watch but somehow committed suicide and what, the guards fell asleep? But there's a, there's a camera of this, but there's a minute missing from the video. Like it's. I don't think you have to be a weirdo to think something's fishy.

[Jim Acosta]

And I'm not a big conspiracy theory guy. I just, I'm not, I'm just wired that way. And I'm starting to think like there's just something weird going on. But the split in MAGA seems to be real. The way that they first, you know, Laura Luber or Megyn Kelly, they're going after Pam, Bonnie, trying to make her the scapegoat and all this. I mean, do we really think that Pam Bondi is just sort of acting out on her own and thinking over the weekend, gosh, you know, Cash, why don't you and I just put out this, this memo that just sweeps the whole thing under the rug. We're just going to put the whole thing to bed and put the whole thing to rest. And that had nothing to do with the White House. Come on, give me a break. I don't.

[Matt Lewis]

I think if Pam Bondi is guilty of anything, it's of being a little stupid. Like just not good at playing this game.

[Jim Acosta]

Right?

[Matt Lewis]

I mean, Donald Trump, Donald Trump set the culture, set the tone. The tone, which is always hype things. You can never go too far. Pam Bondi goes on Fox News and implies that she has the, you know, Epstein client list on my desk. Right now that I think that's why Laura Loomer is mad at Pam Bondi is for getting caught for saying something stupid that turns out to not be true. And, but now it seems super suspicious. If you're a conspiracy theorist, you say Pam Bondi said on TV she has the client list and now you're telling me the client list doesn't exist. Jim, I think some of this, and again, I think there are true believers involved in this as well, but I think some of this is about positioning and jockeying for position. Donald Trump is maybe now starting to become that lame duck. And if you're an influencer, a podcaster, someone who wants to be relent, relevant post Donald Trump, you might start to think what's the best way to position myself? And it's to, it's certainly not to be part of the deep state. Part of a deep state cover up.

[Jim Acosta]

Well, you know, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, you know, might be a duck, I don't know in terms of this cover up. And you know, to me, the thing that is damn interesting in all of this, Matt, is the way, I mean, they, you know, Donald Trump puts out this truth social post on Saturday night, got what, like 40,000 reply. I mean, his own supporters, you mentioned the cultists and the true believers and the people who are just, they'll believe anything he says, doesn't matter. They'll excuse any, anything that he does. I think if he's found a have done something nefarious in the Jeffrey Epstein case, I think they'll let him off the hook. I think they'll say, oh, well, you know, gosh, he's a billionaire. That's what, that's what happens. And as horrible as that sounds, but there are some who are saying, hey, wait a minute, I'm conspiracy theory guy. I thought you were a conspiracy theory guy. You wanted to get to the bottom of this. You were blaming this on the deep state. Steve Bannon was blaming us on the deep state. We thought we were going to get the files. We thought this was going to lead back to the Clintons or the Obamas or George Soros or whatever, whatever crazy batshit thing that they had going on in their head. And now it may lead back to Donald Trump. I'm just saying it just, we don't know if it will. And it's sort of breaking a lot of people's brains right now.

[Matt Lewis]

It's like it used to be about the music, man.

[Jim Acosta]

It's like it used to give up.

[Matt Lewis]

The conspiracy theories, man.

[Mark Epstein]

And now you've changed.

[Matt Lewis]

No, there's something to that. And I do think there's certain people like Laura Loomer occasionally emerges as this, like, serious voice of like, yeah, what's going on? Like, eloquence. And it freaks me out when it happens, but she seems to be somebody who's gutsy, who's calling out the BS and the hypocrisy on the right. Then you've got people like Charlie, Corey Kirk, who is carrying Trump's water, and.

[Jim Acosta]

He'S totally carrying his water.

[Matt Lewis]

Hey, I'm just going to trust the government. Same thing with the. Who's the cartoonist guy, you know?

[Jim Acosta]

Oh, the Dilbert guy or whatever.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah, the Dilbert guy, The Dilber guy.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah.

[Matt Lewis]

We're just gonna have to trust what the government tells us. Like, no. What about questioning the authority?

[Jim Acosta]

But talk about losing the plot.

[Matt Lewis]

I think what's really dangerous for Donald Trump here are the. The last part of the coalition that kind of came together in 2024. Call them the manosphere. Right? You've got this guy Andrew Schultz, you've got Joe Rogan, you've got Theo Vaughn. They were really important for bringing kind of apathetic, non, non political people into the Trump fold. I don't think they're partisan hacks. They may not be that up to speed on the nuances of policy, but I don't think they're partisan hacks. And I think they're starting.

[Jim Acosta]

They like, they were attracted to Donald Trump by his frat boy antics and his locker room talk and his bullshit. And they like somebody who bullshits around the golf course and who doesn't like somebody bullshits around the golf course or at the end of a bar. We all like. And we know he's kind of full of shit. He makes things up. We all like that. We like that. A lot of guys like that. I like that. I'll just be real honest about that. I don't like. I won't say I like him, but I. There's a part of me that likes that. I will just say that.

[Matt Lewis]

Right? And I think.

[Jim Acosta]

Absolutely right. The manosphere is like, yeah, dude, feeling dude, where's my conspiracy theory?

[Matt Lewis]

I think you just got the title for this YouTube. YouTube show.

[Jim Acosta]

Where's My. Where's Ashton Kutcher and Sean Williams? Scott, you know, where are my Epstein files?

[Matt Lewis]

Absolutely. I think there's a danger that they peel off because they were not, you know, dyed in the wool Republicans. And I think, you know, you were talking about how they liked. They liked Trump's, you know, demeanor. They were also just turned off by the left, you know, by kind of the woke left. That told them, you can't.

[Jim Acosta]

That's fine. Yep.

[Matt Lewis]

You can't use this language. You can't call people the R word. But they're not hacks, you know, and. And I think they're. They're gonna, you know, they're gonna push back on this one.

[Vicki Ward]

One.

[Jim Acosta]

Well, and I hope. And I'll just say it is wrong to say the R word. I think that it's wrong. And there are some things that are considered woke by those guys that they just need to come around to and be like, hey, you know, we just don't. We aren't just going to be cruel to other people. Alligator Alcatraz is a horrible thing that's not being woke. It is just horrible. It's horrible to treat other human beings in a horrendous way. But, Matt, I think you're absolutely onto something. And I think that is the space to watch right now. Watch the Joe Rogan space. And I have to think that this has Trump petrified right now. I think that's part of the freakout.

[Matt Lewis]

More defensive than normal. And his trick, the dead cat strategy of changing the subject didn't work. Then he went more overt and basically told his people, get in line. And it worked for Charlie Kirk, but it doesn't work for a lot. It hasn't worked for Laura Loomer.

[Jim Acosta]

And I wrote a thing over the.

[Matt Lewis]

Weekend, too, Jim, that I forgot to mention.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah, go ahead.

[Matt Lewis]

More convoluted Tucker Carlson sort of strata. He's not the only one, which is.

[Jim Acosta]

To say, that's true.

[Matt Lewis]

Trump's not involved. He. He wasn't guilty of being on the list, but he has to cover up for Israel or other.

[Jim Acosta]

I know. What is all that shit about? Give me a break. It's a mystery wrapped in an enigma wrapped in a riddle or whatever. That is the other thing, and I will just say before we go, the other thing that is just damn curious in all of this is, you know, and I. Vicki Ward was touching on this, is that I guess. And maybe somebody could correct me and maybe they'll find it and they could post it and I'll talk about it some other time. I sort of feel like Donald Trump hasn't been asked about this enough. Just hasn't.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah.

[Jim Acosta]

What's with that? I mean, you know, and I guess you're right. It is because he can kick up dust. And I, you know, I Called it the Rosie rule over the weekend. You know, whenever he's going after, when he goes after Rosie o', Donnell, that's when it's like, oh, gosh, you know, this is the last bit of ammo I got in the arsenal. You know, let me, let me, let me load the, the Rosie cartridge into.

[Matt Lewis]

The can every other time until now.

[Jim Acosta]

And it's not working this time. And people saw right through it, and they said, that ain't gonna work either. Dude, where are my files? Matt Lewis, great to see you, man.

[Matt Lewis]

Thank you. Likewise.

[Jim Acosta]

Thanks for letting me change this over and over again. Now that we're talking for the last couple of hours and appreciate the time, go check out Matt on Substack. Really appreciate your time. Thanks a lot. And everybody, I mean, you know, what can you say? You know, it happens. This is modern era. I'm not going to blame this on the real world guy who runs the Department of Transportation, but maybe I should. Maybe that's the reason why my flights got all effed up today. And I, I was going to land over here, and then I landed over there, and then I had to get on a bus. And then I was, I had Mark Epstein booked, and I thought, well, I can't. You know, what if I move the booking? You know, the TV newsers who are watching can appreciate this. You know, if you move the booking, do you still have the booking? So I thought, well, we got Mark. We got to get him on. I want to hear what he has to say. I haven't spoken to him personally, and I think what he has to, what he has to say is very important. What he's asking is very important. What he's asking is basically for these files to be released to get to the bottom of what happened to his brother. Not, not that he has a great deal of sympathy for the crimes that were committed, but because I think we're all feeling this at this moment. What is going on here? Don't we deserve answers? Don't we deserve the truth as to what is going on with this Jeffrey Epstein case? Why is Donald Trump so damn worried about it? Why is he freaking out? Why is he throwing Rosie o' Donnell into the mix when he's going after Rosie o'? Donnell?

[Mark Epstein]

It is.

[Jim Acosta]

It is. Remember that when the Trump fragrance came out over the summer, earlier this summer, The Trump fragrance. This is the scent of desperation, ladies and gentlemen, available in all of your tacky stores now. The Trump fragrance, the scent of desperation. That's what you're smelling right now from Donald Trump There are lots of things, I suppose you can smell, but what you're smelling right now is desperation. When he goes after Rosie, he's desperate. And the reason why he's desperate is, I think it's because what Vicki was saying, we just, we've never really heard him grilled on this topic and he should, he should be grilled on it. What is, why are you so freaked out about this? Ben? You said you are going to release the Epstein files. And I'll say it again. Dude, where's my Epstein file? Dude, where's my Epstein list? And I'll leave it at that. Thanks everybody for putting up with my insanely white hot background today. It was actually hailing when I got off the bus, which was necessary because my plane landed in the wrong city. When I got off the bus, it was hailing where I'm in Colorado right now. And now, of course, it's picture perfect. I could have done this whole thing outside, but then I would have had hail hitting me up upside the top of my head. But in the meantime, thanks everybody for watching. Really appreciate everybody tuning in. If you missed any part of this, of course you'll be able to see the recording later here on substack or on YouTube or listen to it on Apple podcast. A lot of people were checking out the Apple podcast over the weekend of my conversation with Julie Brown that's still available. I think folks are want to listen to this as well. Mark Epstein, I think was asking a lot of interesting questions and my thanks to Vicky Ward as well. Go check out her book, the Idaho Four. And of course always check out Matt Lewis and his political insights. Really appreciate all of their time today and thank you for tuning in. Until next time, still reporting, I'm Jim Acosta. Have a good evening, everybody. Take care.

[Mark Epstein]

Bye Bye.

[Jim Acosta]

Sam Sa.