Trump Admits Epstein Victim "Stolen" from his Spa with Vicky Ward, Judd Legum and Liz Oyer

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Jim Acosta Show

Episode Title: Trump Admits Epstein Victim "Stolen" from his Spa with Vicky Ward, Judd Legum and Liz Oyer
Host: Jim Acosta
Release Date: July 29, 2025
Description: Don’t give into the lies. Don’t give into fear. Hold on to the truth. And hope. jimacosta.substack.com

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Introduction to the Epstein Revelations

[00:00] Jim Acosta:
Jim Acosta opens the episode by addressing fresh revelations in the Epstein case. He highlights Trump’s recent admission made aboard Air Force One, where Trump stated that Jeffrey Epstein "stole an employee" from his spa at Mar-a-Lago. Acosta emphasizes the gravity of this admission, linking it to Virginia Giuffre, an underage victim of Epstein’s sex trafficking operations who tragically committed suicide in April. He contrasts Trump’s statements with those of White House Communications Director Steve Chung, who previously characterized Trump’s severance of ties with Epstein as due to Epstein being "a creep."

Notable Quote:
“Don’t give into the lies. Don’t give into fear. Hold on to the truth. And hope.” — Jim Acosta [00:00]

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In-Depth Analysis with Vicki Ward

[01:12] Vicki Ward:
Vicki Ward, an investigative journalist with two decades of experience on the Epstein case, discusses the significance of Trump’s latest comments. She explains that Virginia Roberts Giuffre was instrumental in bringing Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell to justice through her public accusations. Ward expresses surprise that Trump has not previously addressed Virginia directly, especially given her role at Mar-a-Lago and her connection to Epstein’s trafficking ring.

Key Points:

• Virginia Roberts Giuffre’s pivotal role in Epstein’s indictment.
• Discrepancies between Trump’s current statements and earlier accounts.
• The potential involvement of Ghislaine Maxwell in recruiting employees for Epstein’s operations.

Notable Quote:
“This is the first time he has directly addressed the issue that's actually really at the heart of the Epstein story.” — Vicki Ward [01:12]

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Trump’s Inconsistent Statements and Political Implications

[04:11] Jim Acosta & Vicki Ward:
Acosta delves into the inconsistencies in Trump’s narrative about Epstein stealing employees, suggesting that Ghislaine Maxwell may have been instrumental in incorporating these employees into Epstein’s trafficking network. Ward points out the political precariousness Trump faces, especially with his base’s demand for answers about Epstein’s network and their exploitation of power.

Key Points:

• The challenge Trump faces in addressing Epstein’s network without alienating his base.
• Speculations about potential political maneuvers, such as pardoning Maxwell, which could backfire.
• The potential for increased scrutiny and legal challenges if Trump appears to shield Maxwell.

Notable Quote:
“If he pardons her, sending her out of the country, the victims of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell are rightly going to go berserk.” — Vicki Ward [06:00]

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Judd Legum on Popular Information and Pardoning Maxwell

[16:14] Judd Legum:
Judd Legum, from his "Popular Information" substack, discusses the implications of Trump’s potential pardon of Ghislaine Maxwell. He elaborates on how Trump’s comments may be a strategic attempt to control the narrative or influence Maxwell’s cooperation. Legum highlights the complexities of Maxwell’s imprisonment and the possible political motives behind Trump's actions.

Key Points:

• Trump’s personal interest in believing Maxwell might receive a pardon.
• The delicate balance between satisfying Trump’s base and upholding justice.
• The potential repercussions of pardoning a convicted sex trafficker on Trump’s political standing.

Notable Quote:
“Trump is publicly, after being asked repeatedly, considering pardoning someone convicted of horrendous crimes involving the sexual exploitation of children.” — Judd Legum [18:08]

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Liz Oyer’s Perspective on the Justice System and Maxwell’s Case

[30:43] Liz Oyer:
Liz Oyer, a former part of the Justice Department, provides a critical analysis of the current handling of Ghislaine Maxwell’s case. She expresses shock at the possibility of her pardon, emphasizing that Maxwell has been lawfully convicted and is serving a substantial prison sentence. Oyer criticizes the Justice Department's actions, such as granting limited immunity to Maxwell for interviews, and questions the sudden involvement of high-level officials like Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche.

Key Points:

• The unprecedented nature of considering a pardon for Maxwell.
• The potential undermining of the justice system by reopening Maxwell’s case without victim consultation.
• The suspicious timing of key Justice Department personnel changes related to Maxwell’s case.

Notable Quote:
“The idea that someone convicted of the crimes that Ms. Maxwell was convicted of involving the sexual exploitation of children would be pardoned is just... shockingly inappropriate.” — Liz Oyer [31:16]

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Political Ramifications and Base Loyalty

[20:19] Judd Legum & [27:33] Jim Acosta:
Legum discusses the political tightrope Trump walks, relying heavily on the QAnon movement and his loyal Republican base. He argues that any misstep, such as pardoning Maxwell, could alienate even Trump's core supporters, potentially impacting upcoming midterm elections. Acosta echoes these concerns, noting the difficulty Trump faces in maintaining support while addressing Epstein-related controversies.

Key Points:

• The risk of alienating Trump’s base by conceding to legal and ethical pressures.
• The potential impact of QAnon’s loyalty on Trump’s political decisions.
• The broader implications for the Republican Party in the face of mounting scandals.

Notable Quote:
“He cannot afford to lose any of these folks going into the next year's midterms.” — Jim Acosta [23:16]

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Conclusion: The Ongoing Fallout

[43:32] Jim Acosta:
Jim Acosta concludes the episode by reflecting on the disturbing developments surrounding Trump's comments and the potential pardon of Ghislaine Maxwell. He underscores the broader questions about Trump’s knowledge of Epstein’s operations and the ethical dilemmas posed by considering a pardon for someone convicted of severe crimes. Acosta calls for accountability and justice for the victims, emphasizing the moral crisis unfolding.

Key Points:

• The urgent need for transparency regarding Trump’s knowledge and involvement.
• The moral and ethical implications of pardoning a convicted sex trafficker.
• The call for continued advocacy and support for Epstein’s victims.

Notable Quote:
“Jeffrey Epstein was running a child sex trafficking Ponzi scheme... How in the hell is Donald Trump even thinking about a pardon of Ghislaine Maxwell after what was done to these children?” — Jim Acosta [42:48]

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Final Thoughts and Call to Action

Acosta urges listeners to educate themselves by watching documentaries like "Filthy Rich" on Netflix to understand the depth of Epstein’s crimes and the systemic failures that allowed such atrocities to persist. He emphasizes the importance of holding powerful individuals accountable and the need for continued investigative journalism to uncover the truth.

Notable Quote:
“For folks who have not seen it, I do recommend people watch it because it will make you aware of the depth of depravity that was going on in Epstein's world.” — Jim Acosta [08:44]

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Key Takeaways

• Trump’s Admission: Donald Trump acknowledged that Jeffrey Epstein "stole" employees from his Mar-a-Lago spa, potentially referring to Virginia Giuffre.
• Inconsistencies in Narratives: Contradictions exist between Trump’s current statements and previous explanations regarding his severance of ties with Epstein.
• Political Risks: Considering a pardon for Ghislaine Maxwell poses significant political risks for Trump, potentially alienating his base and undermining his credibility.
• Justice System Concerns: The involvement of high-level Justice Department officials in Maxwell’s case raises questions about the integrity and motives behind reopening the investigation.
• Impact on Victims: Any perceived leniency towards Maxwell could retraumatize victims and erode trust in the justice system.
• Ongoing Investigations: The Epstein case continues to reveal deeper layers of abuse and exploitation, necessitating persistent investigative efforts.

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Recommendations for Listeners

• Stay Informed: Engage with credible sources and investigative journalism to understand the complexities of the Epstein case.
• Support Victims: Advocate for justice and support for survivors of trafficking and abuse.
• Critical Thinking: Analyze political narratives critically, especially when inconsistencies and ethical dilemmas arise.

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Further Resources

• Documentary: Filthy Rich: Jeffrey Epstein's Crimes - The Untold Story (Available on Netflix)
• Books: Chasing Ghislaine by Vicki Ward
• Podcasts: Chasing Ghislaine by Vicki Ward and Judd Legum

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This episode of "The Jim Acosta Show" provides a comprehensive and critical examination of the latest developments in the Epstein saga, highlighting the intricate interplay between politics, justice, and accountability. Through insightful discussions with experts like Vicki Ward, Judd Legum, and Liz Oyer, listeners gain a deeper understanding of the ongoing challenges in seeking justice for Epstein’s victims and the potential political fallout for figures like Donald Trump.

Transcript

[Jim Acosta]

Welcome, everybody, to the Jim Acosta show. Another bombshell has dropped in Epstein gate. Trump admitted earlier today on Air Force One that Epstein, quote, stole an employee from his spa at Mar A Lago years ago and added that he thinks it was a woman, a young woman named and possibly, I guess, a girl at that time, Virginia Giuffre, who was a victim of the pedophile Jeffrey Epstein's underage girl sex racket. Giuffre committed suicide last April. Trump had said earlier on this trip to Scotland that he had severed top ties with Epstein because Epstein was stealing employees from his club. That contradicts what the White House officials have been saying. Communications director Steve Chung has repeatedly said that Trump kicked Epstein out of his club for being a creep many years ago. Trump has tried to make all of this go away, of course, but it's not happening, in part because of the things that he's been saying. And joining me right now, as you can see, is investigative journalist Vicki Ward. She's been on this case for what, the last two decades? Right. Vicki, we talked about this the other day. I mean, your response to what we heard from Trump earlier today. This is the first time I think he's been asked about Virginia. And I was trying to get the. Should I describe her as a woman at that time? She really was a young girl at that time.

[Vicki Ward]

Yeah, she was. So, yeah, Jim, you're 100% right. This is the first time he has directly addressed the issue that's actually really at the heart of the Epstein story, if you like, which is Virginia Roberts. Giuffre. I mean, Jeffrey Epstein probably wouldn't have been arrested and indicted in 2019 were it not for Virginia Roberts. I mean, of all the victims, she's the one whose public claims about Epstein and then about Ghislaine Maxwell really were the catalyst for finally calling them both to justice, if you will. And so it's always, I have, you know, been publicly wondering aloud, particularly in these last few weeks, why Donald Trump, who has said that he severed ties with Jeffrey Epstein, has not come out publicly and talked about it, and why he's never talked publicly about Virginia Roberts as she then was before she got married, who was working at Mar A Lago. We know this from the documents in her civil litigation with Ghislaine Maxwell, that she was working as a young girl at the spa at Mar A Lago. Her father, Sky Roberts, was a longtime employee at Mar A Lago. Ghislaine Maxwell came into the spa, saw Virginia Roberts, young girl, reading a book about Massage. And Ghislaine Maxwell says, oh, if you're interested in massage, you want to learn more, come with me. And that's the beginning of Virginia Roberts horrendous years of sexual grooming and abuse at the home of Jeffrey Epstein. So in some ways, it's almost a miracle that Donald Trump hasn't talked about this till now. And you're right that there's a slight discrepancy between what he's saying now, this notion that Jeffrey Epstein stole Virginia as an employee from him, and possibly there's the insinuation that maybe Jeffrey Epstein stole other employees from Mar A Lago. He's never talked about that before. And it's different from what he told Sam Nunberg, who was his campaign advisor back in late 2014, when Virginia Roberts first surfaced with these claims about Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. Because what he said to Sam Nunberg back then was that he and Epstein had fallen out because Jeffrey Epstein was coming after the daughter of a member at Mar A Lago. So it's a little different.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. And he said earlier today he took people that work for me. And I told him, don't do it anymore. And he did it. And I said, stay the hell out of here. That's what Trump said to reporters earlier today. And then he was pressed on whether Virginia was one of these employees. And he says, I told him, I said, listen, we don't want you taking our people. Whether it was spa or not spa, I don't want him taking people. And again, they were pressing him on Virginia. And he goes, I think she worked at the spy. I think so. I think that was one of the people. I don't know. I think she worked at the spa. I think so. I think that was one of the people. And, you know, so he kind of went back and forth and tap danced around it. Why do you think he is acknowledging this now? It makes me wonder if his attorneys felt as though it made sense for him to say something about this now. I mean, there's. It's a little curious that we're just hearing this now. What do you think?

[Vicki Ward]

Well, I think it's almost extraordinary he hasn't said anything before, but I mean, we've got Ghislaine Maxwell. Right. Jim, now at the center.

[Jim Acosta]

Right.

[Vicki Ward]

Of what is a really thorny problem for him. Right. Because politically his base are demanding answers about Jeffrey Epstein that she probably is the only person who really can answer. Because what his base want to know is largely about how soft power worked around Jeffrey Epstein. How this guy used his money and his connections. Right. To evade justice. She definitely worked, knows the answer to all of that, but what does she want in return? Right?

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah, that's the question. Yeah.

[Vicki Ward]

Right. And so if, at the end of the day, in order to get answers out of Ghislaine Maxwell that are going to satisfy Trump's base, and after all, he's leaned into this base, as we know, quite happily until. Until this issue suddenly wouldn't go away. Well, now, what happens if, in order to get answers from Ghislaine Maxwell that will solve his political problem, he creates a whole other problem by pardoning her, commuting her sentence, or as I'm hearing on the grapevine, I will say, just hearing on the grapevine, it's not any more than that. But, you know, sending her, sending her out of the country, you know, she's got a British passport, she's got a French passport. You know, any of the. If he does any of those things, the victims of Jeffrey Epstein and Guillaume Maxwell are rightly going to go berserk and feel that the justice system in this country has utterly failed them. And, you know, so I don't see how Trump solves this one.

[Jim Acosta]

I agree with you, and I mean, lots of different ways to go with what you just said there, but, I mean, one of the things I do want to pick up on is when he says that Epstein was stealing employees from his club, what he really means is that Ghislaine Maxwell was helping Jeffrey Epstein steal employees from his club, and he was stealing employees from the club to put them into a pedophile ring. And that makes things very difficult for him in terms of pardoning Ghislaine Maxwell, because that means he's known about what she's been up to for quite some time.

[Vicki Ward]

Right. And you know something, Jim? So the timing of this is fascinating because Virginia Roberts only came forward publicly with her claims about Epstein in late 2014. So the question is, when did Donald Trump, to your point, know about what had gone on? Because. Because it's only after that date when this, for years, this lawsuit between her and Ghislaine Maxwell goes on, that behind closed doors. I mean, we now know what went on, that Virginia Roberts made these allegations about being picked up by Ghislaine Maxwell from the spa in Mar a Lago. But it does raise the questions, did Trump know about all of this long before those lawsuits? I mean, that would be extremely problematic.

[Jim Acosta]

I've been back to Palm Beach. You've been to Palm. People talk. And I Mean, I just started watching the amazing documentary that you're involved with on Netflix. And, I mean, for the folks who have not seen it, I do recommend people watch it because it will make you aware of the depth of depravity that was going on in Epstein's world at this time. I mean, they had girls recruiting girls recruiting girls to go into this world. And, I mean, I was just sort of. I was. I just. I'll admit right now, I was. I was sobbing watching these girls talk about how they. They victimized other girls and how they're living with this trauma now. And it is the most. It is one of the most awful things I think I've ever heard of.

[Vicki Ward]

Well, because. Yes, because it's. Exactly. It was a pyramid scheme.

[Jim Acosta]

Pyramid scheme.

[Vicki Ward]

And one of the reasons that this story is more complicated than a lot of people would like to believe is because, yes, you have a man of great wealth and power at the top of it. You have a woman of immense privilege and education and power also at the top of it. But they. They then manipulate these children in a sense that. That, you know, I mean, Virginia Roberts story is complicated, Jim. It became complicated because she then was incentivized financially to go out and recruit other children. And so the pyramid continued. And it's very, very tricky. And it's. You know, it's why some of the relationships between Epstein survivors is very complicated, because some of the survivors consider the others to be culprits. It's a very. And it's a very complicated system.

[Jim Acosta]

And so, I mean, getting back to your point about how this is very difficult for Trump, and I don't know how he solves it. I was writing about this myself. I was writing about it from a political standpoint. I mean, he has benefited greatly by having the support of the QAnon movement. And people can scoff at that and say, oh, they're just a bunch of crazy wackos in the cult. I've seen them at his rallies. I mean, this is a huge part of his base, and he can't afford to lose any of these folks going into the next year's midterms. But the idea that he might have had some knowledge for some time about all of this, I think has to be explored. And it seems to me somebody needs to ask him this question. When did the knowledge begin? When did you know about the activities that were going on? It just seems to me we just started peeling back the onion today.

[Vicki Ward]

Right? And who were the other employees?

[Jim Acosta]

Because who were the other employees? He was talking about employees.

[Vicki Ward]

That's exactly right. Because, you know, I'm pretty familiar at this point with all the discovery in the Maxwell Giuffre litigation and in what was there at her criminal trial. And I had, this is the first time hearing. I mean, I'm not shocked by it, but I think, you know, people would like to know the answers to this.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah.

[Vicki Ward]

My hunch, Jim, and this is, you know, speculation, you know, speculative, of course, is that Ghislaine Maxwell is going to have to give up some big names.

[Jim Acosta]

And not Donald Trump's, probably.

[Vicki Ward]

But, yeah, I'm almost certainly not Donald Trump's.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. And remind us, we can't take her word as gospel. I mean, she is a sex trafficker. She is a pedophile herself. Convicted pedophile. And a known liar.

[Vicki Ward]

And a known liar. And a known liar. She has little to lose at this point.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah.

[Vicki Ward]

And she does, you know, what she does really understand is the network that was around Jeffrey Epstein that basically enabled him, that funded him and that, you know, quite possibly probably turned a blind eye or were, you know, complicit in these horrendous sex crimes. You know, and I will say I've said it before, you know, I sat through her criminal trial and it was like sort of being given the pieces of a jigsaw puzzle, but without being able to put it all together. Because the trial focused very narrowly on the sex crimes, sex trafficking and the, and the one count of perjury. And so there were cameos of bold face names on planes, but you never got. Because, you know, it wasn't in the government's interest at that point that, you know, you never got to see how it all fitted together. And she is able to tell whether it's Congress, she's, she was certainly able to tell Todd Blanche the answers to all of this, which is why I'm sure it took two full days.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. And they gave her limited immunity, apparently.

[Vicki Ward]

Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, it's going to be, it's going to be very interesting at the least to see how Trump threads this needle.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. There's no question about it. Well, I don't want to hold you up, but, Vicki, thank you for coming on. And just so folks are aware, because I saw some people ask during the comments, what is this Netflix series? It's the Jeffrey Epstein Filthy Rich series, Correct. That you were involved in.

[Vicki Ward]

And of course, I sat for that with mine. You know, that was produced by James Patterson, who is, you know, I know very well, my co author. And then we Together. Following that, we made a pod, an audible podcast series called Chasing Ghislaine, which. So the filthy rich is very much about these awful, awful sex crimes, particularly in that Palm beach house. Chasing Ghislaine was almost like the sequel. It was, it was trying to follow the men and the money that were introduced to Epstein by Ghislaine Maxwell. And then we filmed the making of the podcast. And so there's another doc, three part documentary on Discovery plus also called Chasing Ghislaine. And that is a. Trying to get to the bottom of the, of the mystery and the men and the money. Trying to basically answer the questions that people want answered now.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah, and we're still getting, I mean, we're still coming to new questions now because of, based on what Trump said earlier today and of course, your, your bestselling book, ID4, I just saw this. Number one on the bestsellers list, I believe. Correct?

[Vicki Ward]

It is.

[Jim Acosta]

Congratulations.

[Vicki Ward]

Yeah. So, yeah. Wow. You know, I'm glad, I'm glad people are touched by that story. It's another really important story.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. All right, well, Vicki Ward, thank you so much. Really appreciate it. And go check out all of Vicki's work. She's very busy, much busier than me. But anyway, thanks a lot for your time.

[Vicki Ward]

Thank you so much for having me, Jim. Thanks, Vicky.

[Jim Acosta]

Thanks a lot. Appreciate it. I want to quickly go to Judd Legum. Judd has just been doing some terrific work over with his, his substack. Oops, I just typed in his name wrong. Let's see here. Standby Judd, popular information on substack. And you know, I just love the way Judd boils things down. And I can tell now that I'm outside the corporate media world and Judd is obviously in the very much public, independent media world, there's none of the bs, you know, shoe polish that gets applied to the news on Judd's substack. Judd, great see you. Thanks for joining me. Forgive me for just moving you slightly in the show. I had to talk to Vicky War because she's such an expert and I just wonder because I saw what you wrote. You were writing about the Ghislaine Maxwell, the prospects of a pardon from Trump. And you said on your substack, Trump's comments are striking in light of Maxwell's appalling crimes. Nevertheless, Trump has a personal interest in leading Maxwell to believe that a pardon is a possibility regardless of whether he intends to grant her one. Vicki is making it sound as though she's hearing and she described it through the grapevine. So take it with a grain of salt that, you know, I guess she could be pardoned or have her sentence community, and then she would just leave the country, which, I mean, can you imagine the earthquake that would cause politically for Donald Trump? But, I mean, the way Vicki describes it, I mean, it would obviously, it would obviously be a. Just a huge, you know, disappointment to the victims who have just been going through this all over again over and over and over again. But what have been your thoughts? And especially today with Trump saying, oh, Epstein might have stolen Virginia Giuffre from his club.

[Judd Legum]

Yeah, I think it really even underscores one of the points that I was making in the piece that I put out this morning before he made those comments, which is that he definitely has an interest in making sure that she believes that Maxwell believes at least that a pardon is a possibility. And what I wrote about in the piece before we knew this is that he would be the one who could say fairly definitively whether this note that was in that bombshell Wall Street Journal article that was very bawdy, almost like some sort of cryptic confession was legitimate or not, Obviously, he's suing for $10 billion, saying, this is all completely made up. She was the one who put together that book. You know, she would also be someone who could say, I mean, I think the real questions here now are what was going on in the Mar A Lago Spa? What did Trump know about it? When did he become aware of it? And she could certainly speak to those matters as well. But she also is scheduled to be behind bars until 2040, when she will be quite elderly. But, you know, by that, by that point. So I'm sure she is, like anyone, desperate to get out. And if she knows that her one chance of getting out is getting into the good graces of Donald Trump. So that's why you have a really extraordinary situation where the president of the United States is publicly, after being asked again and again and again over a series of days, will you pardon this woman who's been convicted of some of the most horrendous crimes you could imagine targeting, not just targeting young women, but actually trying to find the most vulnerable young women, people from broken homes with very few financial resources that she could manipulate and then put into this, you know, horrendous situation of sexual abuse, rape, et cetera? To say that, you know, I'm open to pardoning this person is really extraordinary, but I think we're starting to learn why Trump has so much at stake here.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah, no, and I think you make a terrific point. In that he may be dangling this pardon over her for an important reason, which is he just needs to kind of keep her from doing interviews or doing depositions. I mean, you know, just today her lawyer responded to the Oversight Committee and said, well, we would love for her to speak to you, but, you know, unless you meet all these demands, for example, she wants immunity and so on, and she wants to do this after her Supreme Court case has made its way through all of that. You know, she's gonna be sitting in there perhaps for a little while, and Trump just wants to have that dangling over her head, I suppose, to keep her in line.

[Judd Legum]

Yeah. And I thought one thing that really stuck out to me that I thought was interesting was that before she does this interview or this deposition with Congress, she wants the questions in advance. She wants a list of the questions. And so if you're thinking about this, and her lawyer is very open about the fact that they would like a pardon. They would, they would like a partner.

[Jim Acosta]

He is saying it out loud. Yeah, yeah.

[Judd Legum]

I mean, it's not that surprising, but that's what they're going for. But if you had the list of questions and you could, you know, I'm sure some of those questions would be about Trump and you could, you could bring that, or at least make him aware somehow of saying, like, here are the questions being asked, you know, what is going to happen to me? That could be even more leverage. So I think it's, you know, it's, it's quite a, it's quite an extraordinary scene. And it seems like to a certain extent, all of this started with a cons, you know, sort of this conspiracy, the QAnon stuff about how there's this cabal, this left wing cabal, satanic child exploitation ring, and that's why Trump played into this and continued to get people riled up. It was only a few months ago that influencers, right wing influencers, were standing in front of the White House with big binders saying, Epstein Files Volume 1. And they were just really revving this up. And now it's really just boomerang back at him in an extraordinary way.

[Jim Acosta]

It's crashing down on them. And I mean, I wrote about this, and I'm wondering whether he can get away with pissing off QAnon. I mean, to me, those folks who show up at his rallies, they may be not in large numbers, but they're in sizable enough numbers where I, I don't know if he can afford to piss off this part of his base heading into next year's. Midterm. I just don't think he can. And he knows that if the Democrats take over one or both houses of Congress, they're going to be Jeffrey Epstein hearings if this is not resolved by then. And, I mean, Mike Johnson is spooked. I mean, I, I don't know. This is, and people slapping me around, you know, and saying, Jim, you know, you, why are you falling for this? I really just don't see how he gets out of this unscathed.

[Judd Legum]

He definitely is. He would like to put it behind him. And I think there's no easy way out. Certainly, I think it was a dramatic and really risky move where they put out that memo unsigned, by the way. No one wanted to put their name on it saying, hey, we've looked into this. No client lists, no other prosecutions. It's over. And Trump started talking about how it was very boring, and that was the move that has not worked. And now they're in the process of contradicting themselves because after, say, that they've completed the investigation, then he dispatches his former personal attorney to go interview Maxwell over a period of days. And now they're running into more issues because he's reconstructing his explanation of how he had a fallout with Epstein because he previously has said it was because Epstein was acting like a creep. And there was some reporting in a book that was written by some very reputable, probably some of the reporters who are doing the best work on this anywhere in the country, from the Miami Herald, you know, talking about how Epstein was hitting on the daughter of a member, things like that. This is a totally new story we're hearing now about how. Well, it was really because he was upset that he had stolen. Stolen, which I think is a problematic word to use when you're talking about a, a sex victim. Yeah, from, from Mar A Lago. You know, that's, it raises questions about, like, well, what is. What was really, what really did happen there? What really was the reason?

[Jim Acosta]

Right. And, and as Vicki was saying just a little while ago, I mean, she was Virginia Roberts at that time, and she was quite young. And, you know, it raises the question, what did Trump know at the time? Because he talks about. What did he say earlier today? Talk about multiple, multiple employees that were being stolen. And, and a reporter asked, was one of those employees Virginia Giuffre? And he, he, he knew who she was. So he has some knowledge about all of this. And Vicki, I mean, Vicki's covered this for 20 years, so this is the first time she's really heard Trump talk about this. So it, it begs the question, what more did he know and when did he know it? I mean, to me, I mean, we're just starting to peel back the onion here.

[Judd Legum]

And, and, and also what was most interesting to me is why is he coming out with this today? Like, why is. He's been asked this again and again and again. He knows the question is coming every time he speaks to the media. Did is there some sort of story that is in the works and he is trying to get out in front of it by volunteering the information. It's just very strange because he's been asked the same questions pretty much every day for four or five days now. So it seems very intentional that he's introducing this new and very damaging piece of information himself into the public domain. And it, you know, just to me, kind of as a, as a media observer, in addition to somebody who's writing stuff, suggests something is strange here. You know, that wouldn't be the first thing you'd put on your talking points. Let's divulge that you knew that one of the most prominent victims and that was stolen from your, you know, your spa facility. And that's why, in fact.

[Jim Acosta]

And somebody who committed suicide in April, just a few months after Trump got back into the White House. And so, I mean, we just don't know what was going on with, you know, Virginia's suicide as well. The other thing that we really should touch on is, I mean, getting back to the QAnon issue and the MAGA base issue. What are your thoughts on that, Judd? I mean, can he survive this politically? Can he. He pardons Ghislaine Maxwell and she skips town and leaves the country, and all of these victims are coming forward and saying, we're being victimized, we're being, you know, harmed all over again. I mean, as you and I were saying earlier, QAnon was built around the idea that Trump was going to vanquish the pedophile sex ring.

[Judd Legum]

Yeah.

[Jim Acosta]

And here he is. He might spring somebody from prison.

[Judd Legum]

I don't, I don't think so. You know, you never, you never. I'm not really a predictions person, but if you just look at the data, it's already damaging him politically in addition to some other things. You know, he never really had any support among Democrats. You see the support among independents dropping very low into the mid to low 30s at this point.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah.

[Judd Legum]

So that really leaves him reliant on having a huge percentage of the Republican base behind him. Huge, huge majorities 90% plus. So do I believe that, you know, 50% or even 25% of them are going to abandon him? Probably not. They'll probably come up with a rationalization and figure this out because they sort of stick by him. But he cannot afford to lose 5%, 10% of that group if they, even if they don't support the other candidate, even if they just stay home, if.

[Jim Acosta]

They stay home, you know, then, then.

[Judd Legum]

That could have a huge impact on dozens of races. So I don't think he can. He has been given the opportunity to sort of distance himself from QAnon several times during as he's been campaigning, and he never chooses that option. He never chooses to embrace them. So I think he does not believe politically that he can withstand a break. So, yeah, I think it could be a real. Politically, it's a real problem. And it's really one of the first times that he's faced this problem of something that actually impacts his hardest core supporters and not just Democrats and independents, something that really gets the people who he counts on the most upset.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. No question about it. Well, Judd, I knew I wanted to get you on to talk about this today. And your substack, I have to say again, not to puff you up or anything, but the, the popular information substack, it's just exploded and it's just done so well. And congratulations to you for that. So everybody out there, you got to check out Judd's work. It's. It's almost every day you're putting out.

[Judd Legum]

You'Re cranking stuff Monday through Thursday, Monday, Friday, we take a breath and get ready for the next week.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah, that's great stuff. Hey, thanks, Judd. Really appreciate it.

[Judd Legum]

Thanks a lot. Thanks.

[Jim Acosta]

All right. Good to see you. All right, that was Jed Luggum. Check out Popular Information. It's a terrific substack. And he's covering stuff that's not always in the news. Yes, we're all talking about Epstein right now, but he's covering a lot of stuff that's not typically covered by the mainstream corporate media. And he does take a bit of an ax at corporate media from time to time, which I've always enjoyed. And now, so more than ever, let me get to Liz Oyer because she is the former part of attorney over at the Justice Department. She, of course, was fired earlier this year because they wouldn't. She wouldn't do the Justice Department's dirty work. And we've had Liz on the program several times. But Liz, great to see you all over again. Hey, thanks so much for doing this. Appreciate it.

[Liz Oyer]

Yeah, thanks for having me on.

[Jim Acosta]

You know, I was just talking with Vicky Ward and Judd about this, and I just want, I mean, you know what this process is like. And I, you know, to me it's stunning that that Ghislaine Maxwell, who's only a few years into serving her sentence for a horrendous crime. I mean, it's stunning to me that any governor, that anybody, would contemplate pardoning her. And here Donald Trump is openly saying he can do it, he has the power to do it. I mean, he's floating it out there that he's thinking about it.

[Liz Oyer]

Yeah. Everything about our justice system has been turned upside down by this case. It is just wild to see what is happening. The idea that someone who is convicted of the. The crimes that Ms. Maxwell was convicted of involving the sexual exploitation of children, that they would be pardoned is just. I mean, that would have been absolutely unfathomable just a couple of months ago that a president would consider doing that. I have never seen a pardon granted to a person who's committed that type of crime. I am not aware of it ever, even having been seriously considered at any time in history. It's just the type of offense where you think, you know, that's not a candidate for a pardon. And yet here we are. Having this conversation about a possible pardon for Ghislaine Maxwell is really just extraordinary.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. And what do you make about the fact that, I mean, Todd Blanche apparently granted limited immunity to Maxwell in order to interview her over the course of a couple of days? I mean, that's. That's pretty extraordinary in and of itself because, I mean, I. She did not cooperate during the investigation before she was convicted.

[Liz Oyer]

Yeah, it's extraordinary on a couple of levels. One is the fact that the Deputy Attorney general himself is now handling this case. Todd Blanche is the number two official in the Justice Department. He's essentially the coo, like the chief operating officer of the organization. So normally the deputy Attorney general is dealing with things at a very high level that involve the organization as a whole, not getting their fingers in individual cases. And he's somebody, you know, he's considered so important that he has his own Secret Service details. So he's riding down to Tallahassee now with his Secret Service detail and spending two days meeting with someone who is serving a 20 year prison sent. That is absolutely stunning that he is even involved in this case. And then another piece of it that just jumps out at me as sort of upside down as far as the justice system works is that the victims don't appear to have any role in any of what is going on. The Justice Department actually has legal obligations to victims of crimes. They have obligations to consult and inform them about what's going on with the case. And this is a case where the victims were under the impression that it's settled, that Maxwell has been convicted. She's been tried, convicted and sentenced to 20 years in prison. And suddenly the case is being reopened by the very department that was in charge of seeking justice for those victims. So that's absolutely staggering, Jim. It's really, really. I just can't emphasize how unusual that is.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. And layering on top of that, we have the possibility because of Trump's own comments today. I mean, Trump made the comment today that Jeffrey Epstein, the reason why they severed ties, he says, is because Epstein was stealing employees from his club. And he acknowledged that Virginia Giuffre, who committed suicide back in April, reportedly committed suicide back in April. She apparently was one of those employees, Trump said, and she went to go work for Jeffrey Epstein and was pulled into that child sex racket that he was running. And Ghislaine Maxwell, as Vicky Ward was pointing out at the beginning of my show, she's an investigative journalist, expert on all of this. It was Ghislaine Maxwell who was recruiting these girls. So, I mean, it's possible that this woman who committed suicide back in April had been recruited by Ghislaine Maxwell at the beginning of all of this, what, 20 some odd years ago. And Trump may pardon Ghislaine Maxwell at the end of the day in all of this. That's extraordinary.

[Liz Oyer]

I think we need to keep in mind that she has been convicted. She's been convicted of five felony offenses involving the sex trafficking of children. She was convicted by a jury. She was convicted just a couple of years ago and has served only a couple of years of her 20 year sentence. She is not a bystander, she's not an innocent bystander. She's not just a witness. She is somebody who was a complicit participant and co conspirator in these crimes. And she has been lawfully held accountable. And the idea that we're now talking about potentially unraveling this for what is clearly a political purpose is really just, it's, it's, it's frankly, really just inappropriate, shocking and upsetting. Jim.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah, and, and there's no, I mean, you know, Trump may think, oh, well, you know, if he springs Ghislaine Maxwell from president, she goes out there, and she says, oh, Trump didn't do anything wrong. We have to remind people. And I've done this on my show repeatedly, even did it today. Ghislaine Maxwell is a liar. She has lied about this.

[Liz Oyer]

Well, certainly the Justice Department has taken that position in the past. They have said that she. They have said in written filings with the court, so documents have. Are taken very seriously, that she has made representations that are untrue, that she has lied in court proceedings. So the Justice Department previously concluded that she's not credible. She did not come forward as a cooperator previously. So at this point, it's clear that she's just trying to get out from under this lengthy prison sentence that she's serving. Her lawyer has said as much, and it's really dubious whether we can trust anything that she might say at this point. Point, it seems like we are just on a track toward a resolution that's not likely to make anyone happy here. I mean, Trump might decide to party her so that she'll say something about him that probably will have very little credibility to exonerate him in the end. But I question whether that's really going to make anyone happy. I mean, if she gets out from under the sentence that she's serving, I'm not sure that the people who are upset about the handling of this case are really going to be satisfied with that.

[Jim Acosta]

No, exactly. And as Vicki was saying earlier, I mean, the victims who are still living, who speak out from time to time, and they've been in documentaries and podcasts, and so they will come out. I assume they will come out and they will say what they think of Donald Trump pardoning Ghislaine Maxwell, if he indeed does that. And I kind of wonder whether Judd, who I had earlier on the program, whether he's put his finger on something and just. Dang. And Trump just dangling the pardon.

[Liz Oyer]

Yeah.

[Jim Acosta]

As long as he can. May keep Maxwell under control. I wonder if that's part of it, too.

[Liz Oyer]

Dangling is a good word. And that seemed to be working as far as setting up this meeting. And she and her attorney met for two days with Todd Blanche. But today she came out and made some demands through her attorney. Congress is also trying to subpoena her. She was scheduled to appear on August 11 before members of Congress to give testimony. And her lawyer sent a detailed letter today with a detail list of demands about the conditions under which she will testify. And the letter noted that one thing that would give her the assurances she needs is if she were to receive clemency from the President. But it's clear that she's not going to do it for free. She's not going to do it out of the goodness of her heart. She is trying to cut a deal, and she's hired a very skilled attorney who is helping her to do it. That attorney also happens to be a personal friend of Todd Blanche's, which raises some. Some other questions. But.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah, what do you think of that? Because I did. I heard that and I saw that, and then I've heard other people say, well, you know, attorneys are friends with one another. It happens from time to time. But it is. It does. It does make you wonder, because they can just, you know, in the business of pardoning somebody. Right, Liz? I mean, what goes on behind closed doors goes on behind closed doors because the President can just do it with a stroke of a pen.

[Liz Oyer]

Yeah. I don't think this is a coincidence, Jim, that this lawyer who's a friend of Todd Blanche's, is now representing Maxwell. She had other attorneys as recently as a week ago. And, you know, just a day or before she met with Todd Blanche, a new lawyer enters an appearance on the court docket on her behalf. That lawyer is this attorney who's a friend of Todd Blanche's. Marcus, that just. Yeah, the timing just seems too coincidental for it to be an accident. My guess, and this is just an educated guess, is that Todd Blanche probably reached out and said, we need somebody who can facilitate this meeting. And he chose somebody that he trusted, and he called this attorney who's now representing Todd Blanche. And there's sort of like. There's a flip side to this, too, which is like the. On the prosecution side, the prosecutor who was handling this case throughout the trial, who probably knows more than anything than anyone about the evidence in this case, is Maureen Kobe, who was fired about a week before Todd Blanche met with Ghislaine Maxwell. She's.

[Jim Acosta]

What did you think of that?

[Liz Oyer]

Yeah, well, at the time, I didn't put that together with her work on the Maxwell case, but now I'm really questioning the timing of it. And she was just very recently fired just before the Justice Department decided that they wanted to reopen their investigation into Ghislaine Maxwell and see if she has any new information to provide. It does not make any sense that if that was in the works, that they decided to fire the lead prosecutor on the case, the most knowledgeable person in the building, unless their goal was to try to get her out of the way so that they could cut some sort of Deal that is inconsistent with what the facts and evidence actually show.

[Jim Acosta]

Wow. Yeah. And we have to remind folks, for the folks who. I mean, because I hear this question and I say, no, that's not possible. Donald Trump pardoned Glenn Maxwell. That's it. That's it. It's over. There's no review. The Supreme Court can't come in and say, no, you can't do that. There's no Supreme Allied Commander. It's just done. And she could, as Vicki was saying at the beginning of this, she could skip town if she's. She's free. Right. She could hop on a plane and out of here.

[Liz Oyer]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, theoretically, there's a possibility that she could be charged with crimes in another jurisdiction, but state crimes. Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah. So I suppose that's possible, but that's very speculative, and I don't know whether the evidence exists or the jurisdiction exists for that really to happen. So, yes, effectively, if she got a pardon, she would go free and she might leave the country before she even could face additional charges if they were to come in the state of Florida or elsewhere.

[Jim Acosta]

Right. And you kind of wonder with the leadership in the state of Florida, whether the state of Florida would even pursue a case like that. I mean, there's that question as well.

[Liz Oyer]

Yeah, that is a good question. Although I will say that Trump is putting some of his Republican allies in a very awkward position with the stance that he has taken here. The speaker of the House, Mike Johnson, said this weekend that he believes that Maxwell should have received a sentence of life in prison for his. For her crimes. He believes that the 20 years she's serving is too light. It's not enough. And I think that others in Trump's orbit feel the same way and would have a difficult time defending a pardon if he were to grant her one.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, this is a place where the political world and the legal world are colliding. And you have to wonder, I mean, and this is. This is. I think this is a question maybe at the heart of this, I guess, from a political standpoint, not from a legal standpoint, the survivors and the victims are at the heart of that. But, you know, when does Trump's base say enough is enough? I mean, when do they. I mean, at what point? Even when he. If he pardons a convicted sex trafficker, that's. That's not enough for them. I mean, you just have to wonder, like, what's enough? At what point do you say, stop?

[Liz Oyer]

Yeah, I have a hard time kind of putting myself in Those shoes and. And figuring out where the lines are. I don't know. I've been surprised to date. It really is remarkable how impossible it has been for the administration to tamp down the crisis over Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. They have tried everything. They've tried lots of really outlandish, unconventional things, including Todd Blanche personally visiting with Ghislaine Maxwell. And thus far, nothing has worked. It seems like there's no good resolution on the horizon. So it'll be interesting to see where it lands. And I certainly hope that at the end of day, the victims do get the justice and the closure that they deserve.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. And the point that you made, I think, is an excellent one, Liz. That and I had not thought about this, is that. And you're so right. This happens in cases where governors are ranting clemency and so on. The viewpoints of the victims are supposed to at least. Are supposed to be at least taken into consideration.

[Liz Oyer]

Yeah, it's actually.

[Jim Acosta]

And this just looks like a hurry up and, you know, let's get this done, wham, bam, thank you, ma' am type of thing.

[Liz Oyer]

Yeah. There's a federal statute that requires the Department of Justice to consult victims, and there is a document called the Justice Manual, sort of like the Bible for the Department of Justice that requires that input is solicited from victims in cases where any clemency action is being considered. So that would be an absolutely necessary step of the process if you're going to do it by the book. But nothing is happening by the books here.

[Jim Acosta]

They're not doing things by the books, as we know, in your case and in so many of these other cases that we've seen lately with respect to the Justice Department. I mean, it is extraordinary, and it harkens back to a time before you and I were really around the Watergate days. I mean, in terms of the level of corruption, it seems to far exceed it if you listen to all the experts in terms of what's been happening lately. But, Liz, thank you so much as always. Always great to hear your insights and expertise. Really appreciate it.

[Liz Oyer]

Great to see you, Jim. Thanks.

[Jim Acosta]

All right. Good to see you, too. Thanks so much. And, you know, I. I guess at the end of the day, you know, we are left with, you know, some really interesting and disturbing questions. You know, interesting doesn't really cut it. Disturbing questions when Trump is all of the sudden out of nowhere talking about Epstein stealing employees from his spot mar a Lago years ago and saying that he thinks that one of them is Virginia Giuffre that says to me, and I've covered him a long time, that says to me that there's a whole lot more to the story here that, that we just don't know about. And obviously, Donald Trump doesn't want to talk about. And maybe he's teeing up one of these moments where he does the fawning sit down with Sean Hannity, who does cleanup on aisle six and tries to coach Donald Trump through the thicket that he's in right now. But I have that question. How does he know that Virginia Giuffre was, quote, unquote, stolen from his spot? First of all, she was a human being. She's not property. Jeffrey Epstein treated her like property. Ghislaine Maxwell treated her like property, but she was a human being. And as Vicky Ward mentioned at the top of this show, it wasn't Jeffrey Epstein who was alone stealing these employees. Ghislaine Maxwell was helping him steal these employees. And it raises another question, and that is, I mean, if you look at this Netflix documentary, jeffrey Epstein, Filthy Rich, and I am not being asked to promote it or anything like that. I just started watching it because I just think there are so many questions here that haven't been answered. And these victims are still in need of justice. There were multiple, there were dozens of women, young girls who were brutally victimized in all of this. And if you watch this documentary and you absorb what unfolded back in those days, you had girls recruiting girls who recruited girls to work for Jeffrey Epstein and. And to be a part of a pedophile sex ring. And if Donald Trump is talking about employees, I mean, Jeffrey Epstein wasn't stealing. Was he stealing landscapers? Was he stealing cooks? Was he stealing housekeepers? Was he, was he, was he stealing people who work at the front desk at the club, the pool boy? No. What was Jeffrey Epstein doing? He was in the business of trafficking young girls. And if Donald Trump was aware of some of this back then and is now saying, oh, yes, well, he stole some of my employees. Remember, the White House has been saying for the last several years, Donald Trump kicked Jeffrey Epstein out of Mar a Lago for being a creep. Now, out of nowhere in Scotland, Donald Trump is saying he was stealing my employees. Jeffrey Epstein had no use. What other employees did he have a use for? And so the questions that are being raised by these, these admissions on his own part, and keep in mind for folks who think, oh, well, maybe he did the right thing here and that's why he's saying these things, as I've said many times. For as dishonest as he is, Donald Trump can be remarkably candid. And he occasionally burps out the truth inadvertently, things he usually doesn't want, want the public to know about. And so I'm just damn confused by all of this. Donald Trump, I'm damn confused about all of this. Jeffrey Epstein was running a child sex trafficking Ponzi scheme. And again, if folks want to watch this, it's called Filthy Rich. Jeffrey Epstein, Filthy Rich. It's on Netflix again. I'm only promoting it for folks who don't have a baseline of knowledge about this. To get a baseline of knowledge about this, our friend Vicky Ward is featured prominently in this. Her reporting is featured prominently in this, and so on. The girls, in many cases, came from the wrong side of the wrong side of the tracks. And I say that as somebody who I grew up in a family run by a single mom. We didn't have a whole lot growing up and so on. And those are the kinds of households that were preyed upon. The young girls in those households, and we're talking about 14, 15, 16 years old. As one girl was saying as I was watching this, was saying, I was a virgin when this happened to me, these young girls were preyed upon by Ghislaine Maxwell. And you're telling me, you're telling me that Donald Trump's personal defense attorney, Todd Blanche, was down at a women's prison in Florida trying to wheel and deal with Ghislaine Maxwell, a convicted sex trafficker who was involved in the pedophilia she has been demonstrated as such to have been doing that. And so I just, I, you know, when Trump says, oh, well, he was stealing my employees in Virginia, Giuffre, I think, was one of them. What the hell's going on here? What in the hell is going on here? How is it the President of the United States has any knowledge of this? How is the President of the United States even contemplating a pardon of somebody like Ghislaine Maxwell? I'm asking the question, in all seriousness. I don't know how any Republican or Democratic politician could go along with this, could be comfortable with this. How any human being could be comfortable with this? Why are we even talking about pardoning Ghislaine Maxwell? If you go and watch what happened to these victims, you will ask the question that I'm asking. How in the hell is Donald Trump even thinking about a pardon of Ghislaine Maxwell after what was done to these children, after what was done to these girls, these girls who had their innocence stolen from them. What the hell is wrong with you? You shouldn't even be thinking the thought. Shouldn't even be thinking. It shouldn't be going through your mind. The thought that should be going through your mind is, how do I pile more sentences on Ghislaine Maxwell? How can I sentence her to prison even longer? It shouldn't be, oh, I can pardon her. I'm allowed to do that. Why are those words even coming out of your mouth? I think the question has to be asked, why are those words even coming out of your mouth? Why did you once say about Ghislaine Maxwell, I wish her well? Who in God's name wishes Ghislaine Maxwell? Wow. Nobody, nobody in the right mind wishes Ghislaine Maxwell? Well, it's outrageous. And yes, we're all exhausted with being outraged, but my God, my God, how can Donald Trump ever, ever consider pardoning this person, this monster? It would be setting a monster free to abuse again. And for all of those QAnon folks out there who I saw at the Trump rallies for so many years, you said that you were going to get to the bottom of the. Of the cabal of child sex traffickers. Well, there is a woman in prison in Tallahassee who is involved in a cabal of child sex traffickers, and Donald Trump is thinking about letting her loose. He is thinking about pardoning. How can you countenance that? How can you abide by that? How could you forgive that if he does that? It's the question that I ask of maggots, the question I ask of those influencers who are waving those binders. It's a question I ask everybody. How in God's name could even possibly consider pardoning that woman, that monster? My thanks to Vicky Ward, my thanks to Judd Luggam, and my thanks to Liz Oyer. As always, thanks everybody for watching. Really appreciate it. Still reporting from Washington, I'm Jim Acosta. Have a good evening. It.