TV legend Chris Matthews on the return of "Hardball" on Substack plus Cori Bush & Jamaal Bowman support David Hogg and Mike Fanone's message for cops.

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Jim Acosta Show Episode Title: TV Legend Chris Matthews on the Return of "Hardball" on Substack Plus Cori Bush & Jamaal Bowman Support David Hogg and Mike Fanone's Message for Cops
Release Date: April 18, 2025
Host: Jim Acosta
Guests: Chris Matthews, Cori Bush, Jamal Bowman, Michael Fanone

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1. Introduction and Welcome

Jim Acosta opens the special Friday edition of his show by welcoming TV legend Chris Matthews. He expresses excitement about Matthews returning with his show "Hardball" on Substack, marking a significant moment in the independent media landscape.

Notable Quote:

• Jim Acosta [00:00]: "It's not every day when you get to talk to a legend."

2. Chris Matthews Discusses "Hardball" on Substack

Chris Matthews elaborates on his transition from traditional cable TV to Substack, emphasizing the move towards independent media. He highlights the advantages of Substack, such as the absence of commercials and third-party interference, allowing for more authentic and unfiltered discussions.

Notable Quotes:

• Chris Matthews [01:07]: "It's in the right direction because more and more viewers are watching it and they're learning how to get to you and they're getting you."
• Jim Acosta [00:34]: "It's pretty extraordinary."

3. Reflections on Media and Political Landscape

The conversation shifts to the state of media and politics. Matthews reminisces about his time on "The McLaughlin Group" and discusses the evolution of political discourse. He criticizes both major parties for their handling of issues like immigration and economic policies, attributing the rise of Republican power to Democratic inaction on critical matters.

Notable Quotes:

• Chris Matthews [05:38]: "I worked up on Capitol Hill... You knew that landscape. You knew D.C."
• Chris Matthews [12:38]: "Immigration was not the simple problem. It was the border being loosely open..."

4. Immigration and Border Policies

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on current immigration policies, particularly the controversial decision to detain migrants in facilities like the one in El Salvador. Both Acosta and Matthews critique the administration's approach, accusing it of racial profiling and violating due process.

Notable Quotes:

• Jim Acosta [07:53]: "It sounds to me that it's all about inflicting cruelty."
• Cori Bush [42:51]: "We're literally watching dictators... suppress the American way of life."

5. The Role of Democrats and Future Strategies

Cori Bush and Jamal Bowman join the conversation to discuss their new Substack initiative, "Capitol Offense," which aims to support progressive candidates and push back against current administration policies. They emphasize the need for both inside and outside strategies to combat what they describe as a hostile government takeover.

Notable Quotes:

• Cori Bush [35:15]: "This is not business as usual. We have a hostile, tyrannical oligarchy takeover of our government..."
• Jamal Bowman [49:17]: "Law enforcement officers... they're going to have to make a decision as to whether or not they are going to stand with the Constitution."

6. Gun Violence and Public Safety

The discussion addresses the persistent issue of gun violence in the United States. Bowman and Bush highlight the need for representatives with lived experiences in combating systemic issues like mass shootings and everyday violence in communities.

Notable Quotes:

• Cori Bush [39:29]: "We need people with real lived experiences... to begin to run for office."

7. Critique of the Trump Administration's Law Enforcement Policies

Jim Acosta and Jamal Bowman express strong disapproval of the Trump administration's approach to law enforcement, accusing it of promoting a culture of brutality and undermining the integrity of police work. Bowman shares his personal experiences and the moral conflicts faced by officers under current policies.

Notable Quotes:

• Jamal Bowman [49:17]: "...they are going to have to make a decision as to whether or not they are going to stand with the Constitution."
• Jim Acosta [51:00]: "It's an attack on the integrity of law enforcement to speak about police officers in that fashion."

8. The Impact of Leaders and Future Outlook

Matthews reflects on historical leadership and the importance of uniting democracies against authoritarianism. He draws parallels between past and present global dynamics, emphasizing the critical role of American values in maintaining international alliances.

Notable Quotes:

• Chris Matthews [20:00]: "I look back to 1963 with Jack Kennedy going to West Berlin... We have this democracy in common."
• Jim Acosta [24:00]: "The world is losing its patience with us... permanent damage is being done."

9. Launch of "Capitol Offense" and Ongoing Efforts

Cori Bush and Jamal Bowman share details about their Substack publication "Capitol Offense," outlining their mission to support progressive policies and challenge current governmental actions. They discuss their commitment to activism and the importance of building infrastructure to wield power effectively.

Notable Quotes:

• Cori Bush [35:04]: "We need to shut it down, whatever that looks like."
• Jamal Bowman [57:34]: "This administration thinks about individuals that assault cops. How is it that you're willing to work with this person?"

10. Conclusion and Call to Action

Jim Acosta wraps up the episode by emphasizing the collective responsibility of individuals to contribute to the nation's progress. He encourages listeners to reflect on what they can do to support positive change, highlighting the efforts of guests like Mike Fanone as examples of civic engagement.

Notable Quotes:

• Jim Acosta [57:34]: "Ask what you can do for your country. This is one of those moments, folks."
• Jim Acosta [59:45]: "Think this weekend what you can do for your country... it's a five alarm fire."

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Key Takeaways:

• Chris Matthews' Return: Transitioning "Hardball" to Substack represents a shift towards independent media, emphasizing authentic and uncommercialized discourse.
• Immigration Policies Under Scrutiny: The administration's handling of immigration, particularly detaining migrants in El Salvador, faces severe criticism for racial profiling and lack of due process.
• Democratic Strategies: Cori Bush and Jamal Bowman advocate for a dual approach of inside and outside strategies to challenge current policies and support progressive candidates.
• Law Enforcement Integrity: Strong condemnation of the Trump administration's influence on law enforcement, highlighting the moral dilemmas faced by officers.
• Call to Civic Action: Emphasis on individual responsibility and collective efforts to address national crises and uphold democratic values.

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This episode of "The Jim Acosta Show" offers a comprehensive discussion on the intersection of media, politics, and social justice, featuring influential voices advocating for meaningful change in the United States.

Transcript

[Jim Acosta]

Well, welcome everybody, to the Jim Acosta Show. As you can see with me, Chris Matthews, TV legend Chris Matthews. There's the laugh right there. I'm calling this a very special Friday edition of the Jim Acosta show because it's not every day when you get to talk to a legend. But that is how we are starting today with the one and only Chris Matthews. Chris, it's great to see you.

[Chris Matthews]

Thank you, Jim, you're leading the way here on Substack.

[Jim Acosta]

I hope it's not off a cliff. I hope it's. I hope it's somewhere in the right direction.

[Chris Matthews]

It's in the right direction because more and more viewers are watching it and they're learning how to get to you and they're getting you.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah, well, and I saw your quote about you're bringing back Hardball. It's going to be on Substack. And you, you gave this quote, I think it was to the Hollywood Reporter at one of these places. You said, for some 20 some years I asked tough questions and got a good number of surprising answers. Now I'm about to do it again on Substack, an independent way to ask questions and give you the answers. And Chris, because you said you spent so many years on the McLaughlin Group, which was Cindy, syndicated on MSNBC, what do you make of this? I think of it as an independent media revolution that's taking place right now. It's. It's pretty extraordinary.

[Chris Matthews]

You know, when I watch you, I. And you're the one I've been watching, I think the double screen is great and there's nobody. There's no third party there. There's no commercials. There's no hype of something else that the same old products of. You were afraid of the irs, now you can call them. I mean, yeah, always pretty predictable ads.

[Jim Acosta]

877 cash now. One of those things. Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

[Chris Matthews]

And also the commercials on radio, which you listen to in the car are not as delightful as the ones you get on television, by the way. They're just pretty dreary.

[Jim Acosta]

It's so true. I spent years in cable news too. And, and you do start to memorize those commercials. It's. You do have them sort of running in your head. No question about it.

[Chris Matthews]

You mentioned McLaughlin because you got the memory for it. But I'll tell you What, I love McLaughlin. He had four people out there. He had Germando. It was played up with snl. Sorry. And you had, you know, and he said to me one time, you're replacing Pat Buchanan this week. Your, your Uzi and your rosary beads are under the seat. Classic. Because Pat was a real hawk, I guess he'd say. And, but he had certain truths. Little tough one Israel, I'd say. But he, Buchanan knew who he was. In fact, I think he hired Buchanan at the White House because he was called. McLaughlin was the Watergate priest, they called him.

[Jim Acosta]

Right, right, right, right.

[Chris Matthews]

Living at the Watergate in high style. And he did have girlfriends. In fact, he married one girl, woman, who was, you know, he was really in love with her. We were close. And he'd talk about how he was in love with this woman, but that didn't stop him from straying, unfortunately. It was him.

[Jim Acosta]

Well, and it was a legendary show for, I mean, there are a lot of folks, you know, in our age brackets who remember the McLaughlin Group, but for the younger folks, I mean, this was the syndicated roundtable talk show. You're right. When you mentioned SNL, Dana Carvey's McLaughlin impersonation was absolutely legendary. He had you, Eleanor Cliff, Pat Buchanan, Jack Jermond, Jack, Jack Girbondo. He would say, Dana Carvey would say when he would do McLaughlin. But it sort of was kind of one of the very first of these kinds of shows. Isn't that right?

[Chris Matthews]

I mean, it was Saturday night or Sunday morning and it was McLaughlin. You know, you'd think you'd make the mistake of thinking he's a conservative. No, that was the alley he was working. But he used to say, I used to say it was pyrotechniques, it was firecrackers. The whole show was built around a New England Jesuit classroom. The whole thing about, from, from zero this to something certain to moral certainty. Have all these they used in the classroom. And it was, and the beetle. The beetle was the kid who collected the term, the papers and the, and the test papers in a Jesuit classroom. So he would have, he would say, sit in the Beatles seat. You know, Fred the Beatle, Barnes, Fred Bean. And it was all the good guys seat, Fred Barnes. Another one story with this kid. He's going up for a final exam. And, and the Jesuit priest said to him, you don't have to take the exam today. You've been a good beetle.

[Jim Acosta]

Amazing.

[Chris Matthews]

No, go get me a Coke.

[Jim Acosta]

Amazing. But no, I mean, it was one of those incredible. It was. And I have to confess, I was just such a political nerd growing up. I grew up in the D.C. area, so I, I, I grew up in Northern Virginia. And I would watch it on Channel 4, the NBC station here in D.C. and it was such a staple of so many people's lives in the Washington, D.C. area. And then it became a syndicated program. And this, I guess, gave you the launching pad to jump to msnbc, where you had your own show and the Hardball show for many years. And, Chris, that was. I mean, I worked at another cable network for many years, but I would sort of close my office door, turn on the MSNBC very low level, so nobody would catch me. I would stray from my company to watch Hardball. Because, you know, Chris, you were. You were such a, you know, a gift to the viewer because you were such a savant. You understood politics so well. I, if I'm not mistaken, you worked up on Capitol Hill for. For a period of time. And so you knew that. You knew that landscape. You knew D.C. and it just, that was what made Hardball so good. You were hearing it from somebody. It doesn't matter what side of the political aisle you're on first from somebody who knows their stuff. It wasn't somebody who was faking it.

[Chris Matthews]

How many people were in the Peace Corps, came back from the Peace Corps, knocked on 200 doors on Capitol Hill, got a job as a Capitol policeman as my first job.

[Jim Acosta]

Wow.

[Chris Matthews]

I like the Capital Cop, too, to start with. And then worked for Frank Moss, the last liberal from Utah. Then I worked for Ed Muskie for three years. And then I worked at the White House, Jimmy Carter's White House. And I was a speechwriter for Jimmy Carter. Traveled around with him on Air Force One, then became top eight, the Tip O'Neill for six years.

[Jim Acosta]

O'Neill.

[Chris Matthews]

And then I did 15 years with the San Francisco Examiner. So I had a lot of politics in me before I ever ventured into cable TV in 94. And for the first cable TV, I covered the OJ trial, which is very cable TV. Every cab driver had an opinion. You could get in a cab and he will tell you because he's been listening to the O.J. trial all day.

[Jim Acosta]

That's right. That's so true. And it just dominated our lives. I remember that. But the other, you know, one thing that every taxi driver will talk about these days is Donald Trump. And I have to ask you some newsy questions before we spend the entire time together reminiscing.

[Chris Matthews]

I got a nasty one for you.

[Jim Acosta]

Okay, well, good.

[Chris Matthews]

I'm just wondering, what did Hitler do in the Holocaust? He took people from Germany to other countries.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah.

[Chris Matthews]

Where there was no German law. There was not even a pretense of German law. They took him to Poland or, you know, Hungary or whatever, and he killed him.

[Jim Acosta]

And so when you see what's happening right now with this El Salvadoran gulag, I mean, the sicot gulag, he's basically taking a page out of that playbook.

[Chris Matthews]

You think, well, it gets him out of the country and who's, yeah, and he says he gets this president of El Salvador. Say. Now if I were at CNN or MSNBC and I was in that Oval Office, I would have asked two questions. This is not original. First question to the president of Salvador. If President Trump asked you to send this guy Garcia back to the United States, would you do it? Then I'd go to president and I'd go to Trump. Next question. Mr. President Trump, will you ask him to send them back? None of this. I don't want to. Of course. It's up to him to do it. If he does, he gets facilitated by Trump. If he's not asked to do it. But Trump never said anything.

[Jim Acosta]

Well, and, and I, I, that's journalism.

[Chris Matthews]

Journalism.

[Jim Acosta]

No, there, and there's a component here that is deeply disturbing because it seems to be all about inflicting cruelty. It's all about making an example out of this person and saying, we, we're going to be cruel to this guy and so you better not come here. We're going to be cruel to you too. Is that what you see in this big time?

[Chris Matthews]

We do that to Canada. They're all coming to me. They have to come to me and quote, kiss my ass. I mean, that's what he says. Why does he keep saying that? Why does he use that phrase? Because he humiliate people. This is not schoolyard stuff. It is so close to schoolyard. We had a schoolyard kid when the neighborhoods were changing in downtown Philly and everybody's coming up to northeast Philly, the Catholic school, and everybody was saying, who's this guy called Moose? Who's this guy Moose? He's the boss and he's a kid from our age, seventh grade or something. And you had to go up to Moose and if you said anything against Moose, they said we would haul, they'd haul you before him.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah, it's just, but don't you think that. And maybe Van Hollen did this, Maybe Senator Van Hollen of Maryland communicated this message to Bukele, Maybe he didn't. I don't know. Maybe it's somebody that, you know, like a Chris Coons or somebody needs to do it. But don't the Democrats need to say to Bukele, listen, Donald Trump's not gonna Be president forever. He may think he's gonna be president forever, but he's not gonna be president forever. And so you better think twice about what you're doing down there in El Salvador, because the United States of America will eventually be under somebody else's, you know, leadership. And they may not take too kindly to the way you're cozying up to Trump and acting like his jailer, like the jailer for the dictator.

[Chris Matthews]

Well, you know, I'm going to step back a little bit. I think the New York Times, well, I don't always agree with what they put on the front page because I think they put too many social messages on the front page. It's more about economics and foreign policy. But, you know, they said the number two issue was the border. So it's interesting that nobody's complained so far, loudly at least, about Trump closing down the border, something of Biden. And they should have worked on this together. It should have been dealt with. We should have had an immigration policy. We should have worked it out how many people we need in this country, blah, blah, blah. They could have worked it out. Nobody wanted to work it out. Either side. It didn't. Nobody wanted to work it out.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah.

[Chris Matthews]

So nothing got done. So border. He slammed the border shut. No one's complained about the border being shut. Now the next step, if he's going out for out and out prisoners, people committed crimes in this country, if he just went with them, if he just said, okay, I'll take the 200, but I'm sending him home, why don't he just take Mr. Garcia and send him back and keep the 200? He made point. He arrested 200 people and nobody's made an issue with him. He doesn't have a litigation, but this guy Garcia has a case. He has a case. Might be innocent, might be innocent. We don't know. And that's all the issue. But Trump gains on closing the board. I don't think immigration was the simple problem. I think it was the border being loosely open and people. What kind of a country is. We don't even have a border. We don't even decide.

[Jim Acosta]

Sure, sure.

[Chris Matthews]

And I think that that was popular. And catching real criminals. Yes. Would have been. I don't think it's ever going to be popular to go after people who have been going to church for 20 years, paying taxes, paying into Social Security and getting nothing out of it for all those years, and then say, oh, oh, you're going home, too. I don't think that's going to be Ever popular. But we haven't gotten.

[Jim Acosta]

Well, you know, and listen, you can't have a wide open border. And absolutely, there's no question about it, you have to have enforcement. And the President has wide latitude when it comes to enforcing the border. That's been the case. I remember I covered Barack Obama. People associate me with covering Donald Trump. I also covered Barack Obama and there were Latino groups in D.C. that referred to Obama as the deporter in chief because he deported a lot of people back in those days. But there's a different component to this now. There's, it's, it's basically all, it seems to me, out and out, racial profiling. The Associated Press reported on a US Citizen who was arrested in Florida for allegedly being in the country illegally. He was a US citizen. He was held for pickup by immigration authorities even after his mother showed a judge her son's birth certificate and the judge dismissed charges. This is a 20 year old Latino man and he was picked up by the, the Florida Highway Patrol and held for ice. And it just seems to me that law enforcement has given carte blanche. I, has been given carte blanche. And they're just going to grab people who look like they don't belong in this country. And there is something scary about that. And I don't think that's something that we've seen under a Republican or Democratic administration for a long time. Maybe I'm wrong.

[Chris Matthews]

No, I think the border was the issue. In fact, it was called the border. It wasn't even called. And I think it's the fact that Joe Biden was getting the wrong advice politically, just the wrong advice. And he didn't do anything. And I think that's one of the reasons the Republicans got big into power. But the other reason back into power is the other story, which is inflation.

[Jim Acosta]

Oh, sure, of course.

[Chris Matthews]

There's not an economist in the country that doesn't see inflation caused by higher prices at the import level. You know, the thing is, the Democrats had a problem during the campaign and I followed it as you did. The campaign.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah.

[Chris Matthews]

And I get the feeling how come every time somebody says there's inflation, it's a problem? The Democrats would flip it around and say, yes, but we have a great gdp. And I said, well, that's not the issue.

[Jim Acosta]

That's not the issue.

[Cori Bush]

Right.

[Chris Matthews]

Because there's something called the Phillips Curve. The more you jack up the economy, the more there's pressure on prices. More pressure on prices. Fewer dollars, chasing fewer, more goods. Yeah, it's just going to be inflation. And more dollars chasing fewer goods and it's going to be inflation. And they, and Democrats kept saying, yeah, but what about gdp? I said, well, that's not, that is, that's not IT. According to MIT economists, they said that the number or 42% of inflation is caused by government spending on, on, on Covid and, and we just did it. And it's one of the causes of inflation. Obviously government is one of the big causes of national demand, economic demand. But they don't even say it now like get it over with. We spent too much money. Stop it now. We didn't do anything on the border. They're doing something way too far. But we knew we had a problem.

[Jim Acosta]

No, I agree. It is about how you communicate things. And you've taught that lesson all too well in your many years of broadcasting. And you and I were talking about this before we got started. We're talking about Bill Clinton and the gifts that he had as a political force in this country. He has been referred to, I think by Obama as the explainer in chief. And I think if you had a Bill Clinton type figure in the last election and not Joe Biden, I mean Joe Biden had gotten to a point where he really just was not effectively communicating at all. And he, you know, he needed to step aside a lot sooner. He made that promise that he was gonna, he was gonna be a bridge to next generation of Democrats. Harris got in too late. You know, some of, yeah, some of it's about inflation, some of it's about the border. I think a lot of it is just the Democrats could never get their act together in 2024. And I just wonder what you think when you look back at this books.

[Chris Matthews]

I've read John Allen's book.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah.

[Chris Matthews]

With Arnes and the book by Chris Whittle. And I think they're. Whittle's a little tougher, but when you listen to Ron Klain, it's clear he knew that Biden was in trouble, mentally, gotten too old and they did. People around him knew it, didn't tell anybody. I think they were kind of an omerta kind of thing. Don't talk about what's going on here. I think you didn't get anywhere near Biden unless you wanted to keep it secret. He didn't do the super bowl interview, which I always call out as the worst example of COVID up. You don't blow a chance to talk to 100 million people or more.

[Jim Acosta]

It's always a softball interview.

[Cori Bush]

Yeah.

[Chris Matthews]

And if he was unable to handle a Couple curveballs. He shouldn't be president. You have no end up. And I think that was it. But apparently Jay Tapper's got a book coming out, maybe 20th.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah.

[Chris Matthews]

Much tougher than the books over I mentioned so far. John Allen's book and Chris Whittle's book. Very tough on the COVID up.

[Jim Acosta]

I got to ask one other thing and it is about RFK Jr. I got to ask you about it because there's the laugh. You've spoken so much about the Kennedys over the years. You've written a book about Jack Kennedy. One of the most heartbreaking things that I can remember in a very long time was seeing the Kennedy family come forward during the RFK junior Confirmation process and speak out against him. That, that you know the Kennedys very well. That must have been an incredibly painful thing for that family to do. And what are Your thoughts on RFK Jr I have not covered him enough. I wish I covered him more. What is happening over at hhs, all the other health agencies, it's. It's kind of terrifying.

[Chris Matthews]

The measles break out. There's all kinds of things going on.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah.

[Chris Matthews]

All I can tell you is this. I went down to Baja California, to Mexico to try to fight a Japanese country company that's coming in there and do a desalination plant and challenge it and killing whales and everything like that. And he was part of that and he was wonderful. There's a guy singing. A local guy was singing all this music and I was saying, play Brazil, my favorite song. And. And after it was all over, he picked the guy's sombrero. Sombrero up and walked around the room and collected some money for his entertainment. And then when we got to the border down below the US Border and we're out in the middle of nowhere and this planes ran out of gas and there was. And he was on a plane. I figured I'm not even going to mention. I'm not even make the lead in this story. This plane says Bobby Kennedy and. And he went running off into the distance to find the guy who runs the gas station at the Federal Ollie headquarters. And I just thought he had a lot of guts. And unfortunately, he was also very, very arrogant. I knew that part about him. Like if he didn't agree with gay rights, he'd let you know when everybody's a bigot, if they don't agree. Oh, stop it with the bigot. People have different views on some things. And he was very tough, but he was normal. And I thought he was okay. I don't know when he got off the. Got off the boat and started talking about this autism thing, which he's still working on. He's going to come up with a real autism by the end of the year. Yeah, you think? Yeah, he's smart about some things. Don't use soda. Don't charge your sodas like Coca Cola or whatever to Sprite or anything else to your food stamps.

[Jim Acosta]

Don't you? Sure, yeah. Food. Food health and safety is all well and good, but, you know, should we really have somebody in charge of that? You know, our entire health care system who picks up dead bears and leaves them in Central park or puts the whale head on the car?

[Chris Matthews]

I mean, I didn't get into the loot. I just think, what was he, you.

[Jim Acosta]

Know, this is like Trump when he took that test. Man, Woman, camera. You know.

[Chris Matthews]

Well, there's two times in her life that Caroline Kennedy really spoke out. She spoke out in 1908 for Obama on the front page of the New York Times. Remember that piece?

[Jim Acosta]

I do.

[Chris Matthews]

And then she did this time rather dramatically. I know when she said something like, I know my cousin. I know he's a predator. I mean, a predator. She was predator about it. And it didn't do any good, that caravan.

[Jim Acosta]

And I was just gonna ask you, and I know you gotta go, and I don't want to hold you up forever, but do you have hope for this country? Chris, as somebody who worked for Tip O'Neill, who knew the Kennedys, and I.

[Chris Matthews]

Just wrote something online for this, for this network. Really? Substack.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah.

[Chris Matthews]

I. That's my own constitution, and my constitution is pretty similar to most people's. I, I look back to 1963 with Jack Kennedy going to West Berlin and speaking to the Germans, who had changed so dramatically in 18 years from what they were. I mean, under Adenauer, they really did undergo a leadership change of who they are. And he talked about Ispin ein Berliner. He said we had this democracy in common. It was chilling because he's saying we in the West Berliners have this in common, and we're up against the Russians who are trying to depress and repress us. In those days, you knew that Canada was with you. You knew that Denmark and France and Italy and all those countries were with you. They knew we all were part of the free world, the Western democracies, that Latin America in many cases was moving towards that direction. In many cases, we knew that we all were for free trade. Increasingly, the big thing about the Marshall Plan wasn't the Aid it was getting European countries with trading with each other, getting them trading again. Made it work.

[Jim Acosta]

It tied them all together.

[Chris Matthews]

Yeah. And made it a common market for Europe and made it work. And today countries like Ireland are part of it and yeah, it's extraordinary. I mean Tom Friedman said Joe Biden united Europe but he couldn't unite the United States. So. Well said he did.

[Jim Acosta]

It's true.

[Chris Matthews]

And Europe together and then Carney up in Carney's going to get reelected on the liberal ticket.

[Jim Acosta]

This guy's something else.

[Chris Matthews]

Had a prayer and he's going to elect the party. And apparently in Australia the same situation.

[Jim Acosta]

That's the Trump effect.

[Chris Matthews]

Imitated Trump's nationalism and they're doing exactly what he's doing. My country's number one, it's America first, it's Canada first, but then he's going after countries like Vietnam. And I've been teaching over there, Jim, every year or a couple weeks, every week I go, every year I go out there and teach these kids. They have completely. They're two generations away from the work. They love us.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah, it's so true.

[Chris Matthews]

Booming and economy is.

[Jim Acosta]

That's right. That's right.

[Chris Matthews]

Main Streets, it's Louis Vuitton and all these high end stores and department stores and air conditioning are spectacular by the way. Ho Chi Minh city's got 11 million people. It's a big city.

[Jim Acosta]

It's an amazing place.

[Chris Matthews]

They're on our side. They're. It always was, you know, Southern Vietnam was more on our side anyway, but they were, they're with us and we're following all that with a 46% tariff. We are screwing these people who want to be our friends and do not want to be friends of China.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah, yeah. And I think, and I think, you know, if there is going to be hope, it's going to come from and I've been calling it the great American pushback on my, on my show, but maybe it's the great global pushback to what Trump is all about. And you know, he has peddled this thing not once but twice now and it just doesn't, it sells with a very small segment of the party. It sells on Fox where they're all singing from the same song sheet and so on. But it doesn't win the day. It just doesn't win the day. Ultimately, I think in the long run, this kind of politics that he does.

[Chris Matthews]

When I was a little Peace Corps volunteer, very proud of it, by the way. I was very proud to be in the Peace Corps and I was over there in Swaziland, a small country in southern Africa. And at night, when it got. By the way, Jim, I don't know if you've ever been really alone in this world, but when you're. You can be in another country and fairly feel fairly alone. Alone.

[Jim Acosta]

Oh, yeah, for sure. Oh, yeah. There's no question.

[Chris Matthews]

At night when the sun goes down and it's getting dark about, and all of a sudden you turn on voa, Voice of America, you hear American accents, and they're telling the truth.

[Jim Acosta]

That's right.

[Chris Matthews]

People are being. I'm being told about the civil rights struggle going on back in the States, and it's real.

[Jim Acosta]

That's right.

[Chris Matthews]

Give the truth to the world with the voa. And we used to help countries with aid and pepfar later on.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah.

[Chris Matthews]

And now, Jack, we're not doing anything for anybody. The American brand is what now? What are we for?

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. And. And I think. And I think the world is losing its patience with us in that they don't want to wait another three or four years for this guy to be out of here, to go back to the way things were. And you have to wonder how much permanent damage or almost permanent damage is going to be done in the long run. And that's why I think what we're starting to see now with these town halls, with these rallies, people showing up on street corners and holding up signs, you know, anti Elon Musk and so on, I think that's. Those are the green shoots. I could be wrong. I tell people all the time, folks thought that the Democratic Party was finished after George W. Bush beat John Kerry. And then out on the campaign trail, this guy, Barack Obama, started going into these, you know, high school gyms and stuff in Indiana.

[Chris Matthews]

I was with him in gyms. I've never gotten over the excitement, the electricity.

[Jim Acosta]

Exactly.

[Chris Matthews]

By the way, my last thought, I'm at the Berlin Wall, the Wall's coming down. I'm talking to everybody in the crowd. I'm doing a hardball show. I'm asking everybody, vasus Freihe, what's freedom mean to you? All these different people, and certain people would say things like, well, the nurses will stop leaving my floor for the west. And things like that particular. And then I go to a young guy in an army surplus jacket. We all have them very anti war. And he's. And he's standing there alone, he got a little long hair. And I said, what's Trina mean to you? And he says, talking to you.

[Jim Acosta]

That's great. That's what it's about. That's what the great Chris Matthews. Chris, great to talk to you. I feel like I had you were talking about teaching kids in Vietnam. I feel like I just had class. So thank you very much. I appreciate it. There's the laugh. There it is. We had to get it in there.

[Chris Matthews]

Good luck for leading the way.

[Jamal Bowman]

I love it.

[Jim Acosta]

Thank you. And Hardball is back. It's back on. And it's back on Substack starting Monday. Is that right?

[Chris Matthews]

Noon Eastern.

[Jim Acosta]

Noon noon Eastern. All right, I'll be watching. Good luck, Chris, great to see you.

[Chris Matthews]

Thank you.

[Jim Acosta]

Wonderful, wonderful. Great talking to you. The great Chris Matthews, I said he's a legend. I mean, Chris Matthews is a legend. And forgive me for being a little too fanboyish, but I grew up in the D.C. area. I used to be this nerd who would watch the McLaughlin Group every week. I watch pro wrestling in the morning and the McLaughlin Group in the evening, and my mom thought there was something wrong with me. And then Chris, many, many years on Hardball and msnbc, just a national treasure. And it's infectious the way he cares about this country and cares about the important things. So make sure you watch Chris Matthews Hardball noon on substack starting on Monday. All right, my next two guests are starting their own substack as well. They're former members of Congress, Cori Bush and Jamal Bowman. And I'm going to do my as I've said many times, it's never a good thing when the correspondent or the anchor handles the equipment. But that's what I'm going to do right now. I'm going to try to bring in Cori Bush and I'm going to try to bring in Jamal Bowman. It's going to take a few moments here. Stand by. There's Cori Bush, should be jumping on our screens here soon. And Jabal Bowman. Let's see if I can get that right. And looking forward to really having a great conversation with both of these. Hey, there's Cori Bush right there. Hi. How are you?

[Chris Matthews]

Corey? Hello.

[Jim Acosta]

Nice to see you. I'm doing great. Thank you for doing this. We're waiting for Jamal Bowman to come in, and then you'll be side by side. And this is a real thrill for me, too, to have not one but two former members of Congress. I can't wait to hear what both of you think about what's taking place right now. It is unreal what's happening in the news right now. And Congresswoman, I mean, your thoughts on, I mean, what's been taking. And there's Jamal Bowman. I think Jamal Bowman is. Hey, there. How are you, Jamal? Good to see you.

[Cori Bush]

See you as well, man. What's up, man? Good to be with you.

[Jim Acosta]

Good to be with you. Thank you for doing this. It's been too long. I've interviewed both of you in the past individually on my old show, and it's great to have you both here. You're both starting a sub stack, I think, also, is it already up or next week? And you're calling it the Capitol Offense, which I think is a great line. That's hilarious.

[Michael Fanone]

Yeah, we started it last week, and so we can play on it. Because it's like the capital offense, or is it offense? It kind of just depends on, you know, and then is it capital. Is it capital T, A, L? You know, like, it can be.

[Jim Acosta]

Absolutely.

[Michael Fanone]

It depends on the minute, you know.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. Well, and, Jamal, I mean, the other thing, too, in all of this is that you're both not in Congress anymore, and I kind of wonder if you miss it, because, you know, I know there's a fight in both of you. There's a lot of fight in both of you. And I know you probably wanted to be there when Trump is giving that speech to the joint session of Congress. We saw Congressman Green up there doing his thing, and, you know, it's. It is wild what's happening in D.C. right now. I mean, what are your thoughts, Jamal?

[Cori Bush]

Yeah, no, it's. It's very wild. And you read Corey and my. You read our mind as it relates to being there with Representative Al Green and supporting him when he protested Trump's words. We were. We were talking to each other. I don't know if it was that day or shortly thereafter. Like, man, I wish we were there. Like, I wish the entire party would have walked out at the same time with Representative Green, because I think that would have been the story. I think that would have been a story, and that should have been a story versus whatever. Whatever Trump was talking about. But, you know, I miss it a little bit. A little bit. But, you know, Corey and I also. We now have more flexibility and more freedom to go anywhere, be anywhere, and kind of say whatever we want. So we could still fight on the outside.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. And, Corey, I mean, what are your thoughts in terms of tactics and how the Democrats should go about this? Because there was a big debate over, you know, you saw the leader, Hakeem Jeffries, who is very well regarded inside the Democratic Party. People like him and know he's worked really hard to get to the position that he's in right now, but it's almost like you can't, I don't know, is there a right way or a wrong way? Back in those days, I was saying kind of, well, live and let live. If Al Green wants to do that, let Al Green do it. But not everybody was on board with that strategy. What are your thoughts as to what the Dems should be doing right now to push back? I mean, there's a lot to push back against.

[Michael Fanone]

Well, I'm with you on that. You know, this is the thing. What Democrats aren't doing enough. Republicans are doing way too much. And so at the end of the day, the people are being crushed. And so we, you know, all, all of the, well, we shouldn't do this, like, even while we were there, you know, you know, when Biden was the president, you know, well, if we do this, then the Republicans will do this when they're back in power and we gotta do, you know, what they're, they were going to do it anyway. They were gonna do all of the things they wanted to do anyway. And so what we needed to do was use our power. And so I think in this moment, what we should be doing is so, um, you think about a basketball team, you know, you want the person that, you know is going to, you know, and I'm not a, I'm not, I leave that to my husband. Understanding all the, what, what, what positions people play. But you want your best people doing their thing, you know, So I, I, I look at it like this. For people who are the messengers, who deli, they, they are the communicators. Have those folks out on tv, have those folks doing the messaging, but don't call them. Don't say that those are your fighters, because that's where you lose people. Have your fighters. Be the fighters. The people that will do the Al Green thing, the people that will do what I did and camp out on the steps for four nights and five days to push the president and the cdc. That is what we utilize people for, what they have. And we're missing that right now because we wanna make messengers the fighters, you know, and then so when we look crazy when we go, you know, I'll say this, people blew my phone up, Jim, when a few times when members of Congress were outside of like, different federal agencies and it was like, no, you can't come in. And they were like, oh, yeah, well, that's not right that we can't come in. The thing is where I'm from where I'm from, you tell me I can't come.

[Jim Acosta]

I might come in.

[Michael Fanone]

Yeah, I'm coming in.

[Jim Acosta]

You know, I know it's been wild watching, you know, Elon Musk and Doge, you know, close these agencies and send people in and get the data and do what they've been doing. Jamal. I mean, it's kind of like, you know, is this America? What's going on here? And have. Have the Democrats been doing enough to push back against some of this stuff? I know that you have started an effort on your own to, to support more progressive candidates in these upcoming primaries and so on. Is that something? Is that a little bit of what we need to see?

[Cori Bush]

That's a little bit of what we need to see. It's called Built to Win. It's a super PAC that I started. Corey has a C4 as well, called Movement for Freedom. And we're just trying to do our part in terms of building the infrastructure we need on the outside to wield power, to hold the inside accountable. And I want your listeners to. Corey brushed over something a little too fast for me. I want to go back to what she said. When Corey felt that the president was going to allow millions of Americans to be evicted from their homes, Corey instinctively and intuitively slept on the Capitol depths to make sure that didn't happen. Four days later, Biden had to yield to Representative Cori Bush. And Corey will tell you herself, once she did that, she. She said it wasn't about her. She had organizers and people coming from all over the country to sleep on the steps with her. I. It was. It was a voting day for us. I had to go. I went home to New York and I got the news that Corey was sleeping on stuff. I'm like, damn, what is Corey doing now, y'all? I wanted to spend some time with my family. I'm like, okay, Melissa, let's put the kids in the car. We're driving back to D.C. to do our part. And all I did was give Corey a little three, four hour break so she could go take a nap and come back. But that's what we mean by fighting. And, you know, I don't want to call people out, and I'm not trying to start anything, but, you know, when Speaker Pelosi wrote, wrote a statement in terms of what Senator Schumer should do during the negotiation for the. For the. For the cr.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah, right.

[Cori Bush]

So the senator put us in this binary. That didn't have to be a binary.

[Jamal Bowman]

Right.

[Cori Bush]

It wasn't their. Their Bill or shut down. That. It wasn't that. What the speaker said was speaker, police said fights. Find some fighting.

[Chris Matthews]

You.

[Cori Bush]

There's a third option, which is get this bill out of my face and come back when you're serious. And if you don't, the shutdown is going to be on you. That's what we need. This is not business as usual. We have a hostile, tyrannical oligarchy takeover of our government by Elon Musk, Doge and others. They're taking our data. We have no idea what the hell they're doing with our data. It's crazy. And we know data is currency, data is gold. They're going to use it. He's a tech mogul. They're going to use it for their advantage in terms of wealth and power. And this is why we got to, we got to shut it down, whatever that looks like. Shut it down.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. No, it's a great point. And I love that story about Congresswoman Bush. That's the definition of good trouble. But let me ask you about a different kind of trouble. David Hogg, I'm sure you've seen this in the news. The vice chair of the Democratic Party, very young man at the 25 years old. He's launched this thing called Leaders We Deserve. He is launching a $20 million effort to primary what he calls out of touch, ineffective incumbent House Democrats. But he's doing it while he's part of the dnc. What do you guys think? I have to ask you that question.

[Michael Fanone]

Yeah. Well, he made a decision to shake it up from the inside. And I'll say, people would say to me, and I know Jamal probably went through this too, is you can't make change from the inside. You can't do it. Well, I believe there has to be an inside, outside strategy. You have your people on the outside that are pushing, that never go inside. You have people that are on the inside that are working with the people on the outside. You know, and so for him to make the decision while he's in, you know, a part of the leadership of the DNC to say, this is what I'm going to do. First of all, let me just say my jaw dropped and I was overjoyed. But I was also like, you know, because, because had I done that, had anybody from Squad done that, like, we would be, you know, like there would be never ending stories and we would be raked over the coals for the next, you know, for the next decade. But, and I say I was overjoyed because there is someone else Saying what we have been saying for a while and other groups have been saying for a while. And let's be clear, I'm not coming against my former colleagues there. There are some really great people in the US Congress right now, but there are some people that are bought and sold that only do just enough. There are some people that only do what the donors or the lobbyists say. And there are some people who just don't have the spark anymore for this fight. You were great for these other fights. But the thing is, we need to, like, you gotta pay attention to the times. We need people for this fight, for this moment, to do this thing against this regime. And if that's not you, it's okay to be like, hey, let me move on to my next thing. We have to understand that Congress is still a job, so when your time is up, move on. So for David Hogg, feeling like he's saying ineffective. So if you are ineffective in your position and people know that they're ineffective, let's be clear. People know. So if you're ineffective, then just say, you know what, I'm gonna, let's move on. So I'm not mad at them.

[Jim Acosta]

And we need an injection of young talent.

[Michael Fanone]

Yeah, yeah, but I'll say this young. My issue with the young piece is I'll say we need people that are doing great work. I can't just say, because what is young? Because sometimes. Because the thing is, we also do need people who have lived some type of lived experience.

[Jim Acosta]

That's true.

[Michael Fanone]

To be able to speak to these issues. So we have people who have less lived experience because of their age. Some folks, now, some young folks have been through a lot, but we, we need people who are a little more seasoned. We need people who are a little less seasoned. We need people, we need all of it to come in now. So I applaud him. But don't forget about the, you know, us 40 year olds. And you know, I was saying young.

[Jim Acosta]

Because you're so young, Corey.

[Cori Bush]

That's what I was saying, especially for Congress. Corey and I are super young. And that's part of the problem. Right, but, but I mean, David Hogg, I mean, let's remember, you know, his background, right? He survived the Parkland mass shooting, right? And so that is his core, that is his foundation, that is where his values come from. So to Corey's point, he's young, but he went through something that thrusted him into, you know, I got to be a part of a movement. I got to do what I can. I got to raise the level of voice, et cetera, et cetera. And, and gun violence, just to, just to, you know, underscore an issue continues to be an issue in our country. Whether mass shootings are quote unquote down and God forbid they never go back up. But the day to day gun violence that happens in urban communities on a consistent basis. We need the people with real lived experiences. Corey's a nurse and an organizer. Jamal Bowman teacher principal organizer David Hawke survived a mass shooting. People who have been victims of the policy violence that has come from Washington and locally all our lives, those are the people that need to begin to run for office. So I support what David is doing.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. And you bring up gun violence. We just had another mass shooting at Florida State. I mean, you know, it's just out of control in this too. Dead. And it's just, it's another one of those moments where you have to wonder what is it going to take to change course on that subject? You know, when the question goes to Trump, he says, well, it's not the gun that causes this, this, it's the person. And it's the same, you know, lines that you hear over and over again. I have to ask you both about, you know, this and this has been, you know, something that I've been very concerned about is the situation with using this prison down in El Salvador to scoop up migrants off the streets. And I mean, Jamal, you know, coming from New York, I mean that's a huge segment of the community there. And it looks like what they're, they're just engaging in racial profiling, they're just grabbing people who look Latino, look like they don't speak English and they're scooping them up.

[Cori Bush]

Yeah, I mean it's, it's sickening, it's disgusting, it's horrifying and it's scary as hell, man. Like as scary as hell. The, they're snatching people off the street, detaining them, disappearing them, and they sent an innocent person to this prison in El Salvador. And then you bring the, the president of El Salvador to the White House to say, we're going to start sending American citizens there. You need to build more jails. We are literally watching dictators come together with a far right, oppressive, fear based, terrorist style agenda to suppress the American people and suppress the American way of life and what our democracy is supposed to be. So it is scary as hell. Mass incarceration has always been a problem, the issue of mass incarceration for certain communities. And now to see this happening, man.

[Jim Acosta]

And Just thumbing their noses at the idea of due process. I mean, that's the other thing too.

[Cori Bush]

Well, he said, you know, before he won, he said he wanted to be a dictator for a day. Now he's just a full blown dictator and we need to. So I read David Brooks piece today in the New York Times and it was very interesting that he's calling for a civic representative revolution. It's very interesting that he is, but that's good. But his point about the people coming together and resisting, not just the people, but law firms, universities, private sector, the public sector, that's what we're going to need to do in order to stop what's happening on the outside while the people on the inside do what they're supposed to do.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. Well, I appreciate both of you coming on. I'm looking forward to the, the new substack show, the Capitol Offense. I, I maybe Is it a play on words? A little bit, Jamal. On something that might have occurred at one point. Is that.

[Michael Fanone]

Oh, oh, Jim.

[Jim Acosta]

Capital misdemeanor, you might call that, I guess.

[Cori Bush]

Yeah, Capital misdemeanor.

[Chris Matthews]

That's right.

[Cori Bush]

Listen, Corey and I are both hip hop fans, so we love hip hop, we love poetry. So definitely a play on words. It's a quantiplet, quantuple and entendre.

[Jim Acosta]

Very good, very good. Well, it's great to see both of you. I'm glad you can have a good laugh about that. But Jamal and Corey, best of luck to both of you. Hope we can do this again. I would love to do. It's been a lot of fun.

[Michael Fanone]

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you, Jim.

[Jim Acosta]

All right, take care. Bye, everyone. Have a great weekend. That was hilarious. Thank you both so much. Thank you, Corey, so much. That was a lot of fun and I couldn't resist. I hope nobody minded me. Hope Jamal didn't mind me doing that at the end there. Let me bring in Michael Fanone because Fanon and I were on the phone earlier today and you guys might remember a while back I, I kind of brought up this idea of having Eff it Friday. And I'll just say it it Friday. And I know there's some people are like, you shouldn't do that. I'm a traditional viewer of television and you shouldn't say that word and so on. But you know what? I got phenomenal. So it, it's Friday. Here's for now.

[Jamal Bowman]

Hey, Mike, buddy, how are you doing?

[Jim Acosta]

I'm doing good, you know, it's been a great show. Talked to some really interesting people. Chris Matthews, I know you grew up in. You kind of grew up in the D.C. area.

[Chris Matthews]

Right.

[Jim Acosta]

So you remember Chris Matthews?

[Jamal Bowman]

I do. Was at the McLaughlin Group and Hardball.

[Jim Acosta]

Yep. Remember all that?

[Chris Matthews]

Yeah.

[Jim Acosta]

They would sit around this table and yell at each other and all that, and they would make fun of it on snl. But. So how are you? I wish we had had you at the town hall. I know you were spending some quality time with your family. But, you know, one of the things that I want to end the week talking about. You sent me a piece that you wrote earlier today. Did you put it on Substack? It was sort of an open letter to law enforcement. And I think it's very important what you bring up. And it ties back to what's been going on with these migrants who are just getting snatched up off the street and sent to wherever and they send them to El Salvador without due process and so on. And you were writing in this piece that police officers need to think long and hard about what they're being asked to do right now. Yeah, absolutely.

[Jamal Bowman]

I mean, listen, this is kind of my lane. I spent two decades with the Metropolitan Police Department in Washington, D.C. and I could tell you that during those 20 years, never once did I think about my obligation and oath to the Constitution. And I certainly never thought about things like morality in law enforcement. It wasn't until after January 6th that I started to have those kind of reflections. And when I left the police department and then now living in or under a authoritarian regime like the Trump administration or the Trump administration, now I see how certain events, certain things that I learned about during my career are playing out in real time. And so I wanted to address my former colleagues in law enforcement. And I drew on two specific moments that I remember vividly in which one was a lecture series at the Holocaust Museum that we attended as part of our in service training. And the other was a lecture series at the Museum of African American History, Both in Washington, D.C. the first one, we talked about how German police officers were co opted into enforcing policies and laws of the Nazi party and how they were involved in arresting Jews, transporting Jews to these concentration camps, and also seizing their property and redistributing it to the state. When we went to the African American Museum, we learned about how American law enforcement officers in our not so distant past were involved in capturing runaway slaves, were turning them into servitude, how law enforcement officers were responsible for enforcing Jim Crow laws, which actually had criminal penalties. And so these are real events that really happened involving law enforcement, involving law enforcement doing Things that were incredibly immoral and also illegal. And yet it was the, you know, it was kind of the law of the land at the time. I mean, listen, going through these trainings, I thought that it was offensive to me that we would have to learn these types of things, because I never thought in a million years that I would be put in a position in which, you know, I would have to make these types of choices. But here we are. We're seeing American law enforcement co opted by the Trump administration into doing things that are incredibly immoral and oftentimes illegal. And they're going to have to make a decision. They're going to have to make a decision as to whether or not they are going to stand with the Constitution. And knowing full well that. And I'm here to tell you, you may lose your job and you might be susceptible to criminal prosecution.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah, no, there's no question.

[Jamal Bowman]

That's just the reality of. But, you know, I made a choice when I left the Metropolitan Police Department. I knew that I couldn't advocate for the truth and be a D.C. police officer at the same time. Unfortunately, my agency was just not going to support my advocacy. And so I quit. And I think there are police officers out there that are just going to have to make that decision. Can you look your children in the eye and be a part of this? Because I certainly could not. And then also, as a community, just like we have rallied around a lot of the other groups that have been persecuted by this administration, you know, we're going to have to rally around law enforcement officers, government officials, people that make the right choices and then may suffer adverse consequences under this administration.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. And, Mike, I mean, one of the things that we've heard Trump say is he wants to sort of, you know, take the leash off of law enforcement, let cops be cops. Let cops do what they want. If they need to rough up people that they arrest, let them do that, sort of. And it. And to me, it's an attack on the integrity of law enforcement to speak about police officers in that fashion, because I've known lots of cops over the years, and they don't walk around just wanting to go violate people's constitutional rights. There are people who get carried away, and there are certainly some bad apples, but the way Trump talks about cops, the way he talks about how he wants cops to operate, it's just so sick. You know, it's like he thinks of them as a bunch of junkyard dogs that he's just going to unleash on people, and it's No, I think he.

[Jamal Bowman]

Thinks of cops as his. As like his new. Now that he's kind of done with the proud boys and the Oath Keepers, he doesn't need them anymore. He actually has legitimate law enforcement agencies that he can use to, you know, to do just that, to be his thugs, to be the ones that go out there and put fear and intimidate their own, you know, fellow citizens.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. And in the case of these migrants, basically engage in racial profiling. He's basically saying, if you do it, we're not, you're not going to get in trouble for that. I mean, look what this recent guy talked about it with Chris Matthews a little bit. A US Citizen was arrested in Florida for allegedly being in the country illegally. A US citizen, his name is Juan Carlos Lopez Gomez, 20 years old, was in a car that was stopped just past the Georgia border by the Florida Highway Patrol. And he had to wait and wait and wait for his relatives to bring over documents to prove that he was in the country legally, that he was a citizen of this country. And, you know, it just seems to me that when you unleash this kind of behavior, you can end up with a lot of bad consequences.

[Jamal Bowman]

Yeah, no, I mean, I listen, my feed has been filled with stories, people sending me stories just like that, people's experiences all across the country. US Citizen stopped, detained, questioned about whether or not they're an actual citizen. And then also what's just as disturbing is attorneys that represent people that are trying to immigrate to this country legally also being stopped and detained by customs and border patrol and then asking, you know, to. Or demanding that they look through their phone and, you know, look at, you know, the content of their phone. We're living in a very disturbing time.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. And I know you have some thoughts about this guy, Ed Martin, that Trump wants to be the U.S. attorney in Washington, D.C. this is somebody who is, you know, a January 6th truther. He has been caught on video praising white nationalists and all kinds of things. Give us some of your thoughts on that, because I think it's highly disturbing.

[Jamal Bowman]

Yeah, no, I mean, this is a person who, like, we could split hairs all day long about, you know, this, that, and the other. But to me, if you sympathize with and call a neo Nazi somebody who has true leadership qualities that would be useful in this country, then you yourself are, in fact, a Nazi. And so I believe that Ed Martin is a Nazi. He is certainly somebody who, now, he.

[Jim Acosta]

May say he's not. We should just be very. He may say he, you know, and I think he has said, well, I didn't mean to do this, and I didn't do that, and. And he's going to say all that stuff.

[Jamal Bowman]

Yeah, no, he's also somebody who has said that. That I'm a fake cop, implying that I am not a real police officer, despite the fact that he knows full well, or at least should know full well, especially if he's looking to be the top Prosecutor in Washington, D.C. that I served with distinction as a member of the Mexico Police department for almost 20 years, he was going to have to do.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah, right.

[Jamal Bowman]

The idea that he would play into or feed into those, the lies and those, you know, that misinformation like that is what inspires people to threaten me. That is what inspires people to confront me in public and say things like, you're a fake. You're a fake cop. You never work.

[Jim Acosta]

Crisis actor.

[Jamal Bowman]

You're a traitor to this country. You're a crisis actor. All of those things bring about violent acts against members of my family and myself. And so I think it's incredibly dangerous to have somebody. And it. Not to mention the fact that he was there on January 6, not as someone who was trying to stop the violence, but someone who was advocating. Advocating for the Stop the Steal rally. And since then.

[Jim Acosta]

And that's what's so fucking sick, is that, you know, how in the world can you put somebody like that in charge of a law enforcement office like the U.S. attorney's office? I mean, to me, there's an intent there. The intent is to, first of all, try to whitewash the history of January 6, but at the same time, sort of give the green light to the people who are attacking the Capitol that day and say, hey, we get another jam like this, the guy who's in charge of the office ain't gonna prosecute you next time.

[Chris Matthews]

Yeah.

[Jamal Bowman]

And then just to bring up another statement that, you know, Dick Durbin mentioned that he had said in his, you know, Senate when they were doing the confirmation hearing, he has said that those that assaulted law enforcement officers on January 6 should have received a lower sentence because of the circumstances of that day, that they. These were freedom fighters that were there as patriots, and that the fact that they assaulted law enforcement officers, they shouldn't be treated like the normal criminal who attacks a police officer. And I just want police officers across the country to know what this administration thinks about individuals that assault cops. My older question is, to the Metropolitan Police Department, to all the law enforcement agencies in Washington, D.C. how is it that you're willing to work with this person?

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. I don't get it.

[Jamal Bowman]

How is it that you are not screaming from the rooftops that this person is unfit, that this person is a dangerous person to put in charge of this agency, and that you simply will not work with the Department of Justice?

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah. Well, Mike, tell me about this shirt, because you and I were talking about this on the phone earlier today. I know on your profile picture on Substack, you've got this. This Machine Kills Fascists logo, and this has something to do with your tattoo artist or tell. Tell the story. I love the T shirt. I gotta get one of these Mike Fanone T shirts. It reminds me of, you know, Nine Inch Nails or, you know, back in the day. I'm showing my age here.

[Jamal Bowman]

Yeah. No, so, like, my buddy John, who does a lot of my tattoos, I asked him to come up with a graphic for my Substack page. And, like, some of the other social media stuff that I done. It's like the one professional thing that I've done with, you know, with. With regards to. To any of this stuff. Anyways, he came up. The idea that we had for the design was. It's an old Woody Guthrie quote, which, for those of you that may remember or are familiar with Woody Guthrie, this. You know, he was a guy that, in the 20s and 30s and 40s, was a huge advocate for workers rights. And he was also a huge opponent of fascism and wrote a lot of songs about fascism. But anyways, he wrote on his guitar, this Machine Kills Fascists. And so I thought that was great, you know. Yeah, just something that represented me and my message and really all of us that are involved in this community. And so he did up the design. We kind of did it like the COVID to the old Sex Pistols album.

[Jim Acosta]

There you go.

[Jamal Bowman]

God Save the Queen.

[Jim Acosta]

That's like the little.

[Jamal Bowman]

The tear and everything. But, yeah, that's me on there. And, Yeah, I got 500 of them sitting in my garage. So if you want one, I get one.

[Jim Acosta]

All right, sounds good. I'll pay for it. I'm not that cheap. But, hey, man, I'm glad you came on. You know, it's always good to talk to you. And, you know, when you see the comments coming up, I hope, you know, Mike, that, you know, there's a lot of people out there who support you and they want more of that machine. They don't want less. That's for damn sure.

[Jamal Bowman]

Well, I appreciate that and thank all of you guys. And I'm still like, I'm Struggling to circumnavigate this space. I'm trying to put more content up there, but this is just not something that comes naturally to me. So you guys get an opportunity. Read the piece. It's an open letter to American law enforcement officers.

[Jim Acosta]

Yeah.

[Jamal Bowman]

You know, like it. If I'll post it. Like it. Subscribe. And. And, yeah, I'll keep. Keep putting more content out.

[Jim Acosta]

I'll put it up on mine and I'll put a link in there to go to yours. And. And I'm. I'm looking for that T shirt. And in return, I want a T shirt. I want a damn T shirt.

[Jamal Bowman]

I got you. No problem.

[Jim Acosta]

All right, bud, Good to see you. Have a great weekend. Likewise.

[Jamal Bowman]

Use well. Take care.

[Jim Acosta]

Thanks, Mike. Appreciate it. And it doesn't get more patriotic than hating fascists. I hate to say it. You know, actually, I love to say it. There's some people who might hate to hear it, but I love to say it. Mike Fanon is a machine that kills fascists. And I believe he's speaking metaphorically speaking, but. But I love the spirit behind it and just want to say to everybody who's been watching all week long, it's been a hell of a week, hasn't it? My goodness. On Monday, we were preparing for a town hall in New York City. I'm here in D.C. and we got all that stuff up there and we threw it together. We put it out there on a feed, and people watched it, and it was terrific. I had, you know, Michael Cohen and Don Lemon and Harry Dunn, another wonderful police officer. Olivia Troy, Tara Settmeier. It was. And Matt Friend. It was. It was a great night. So once again, just want to thank everybody for being a part of that. If you were watching in person or online, obviously, the wonderful people at Substack who helped me put on that incredible event, the Midas Touch guys who carried it on their feed. It was. It was a hell of a night. Great week and lots of great guests this week. Hope you've enjoyed the conversations. I had a great conversation today with the one and only Chris Matthews. I mean, again, not to geek out too much, but that was a hell of a lot of fun. And of course, my thanks to Corey Bush and Jamal Bowman as well. I had to tease him a little bit there. I had to tease him a little bit there about the fire alarm thing. We are, you know, we are kind of facing a. A5 alarm fire at this moment for our country, but you are seeing people answer the call. You're seeing people like Mike Fanone, people like Harry Dunn answer the call. And, and if there's a challenge I could issue this weekend because it was a question that, that was raised at the town hall the other night. What, what can I do? And this goes back back maybe a little bit to my conversation with, with Chris Matthews, who likes to talk about the Kennedy so much over the years. Ask not what you can, what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country. This is one of those moments, folks. Ask what you can do for your country. And Fanon is doing that. Harry Dunn is doing that. A lot of the friends that I bring on this program are doing that. And that is my challenge to you, to think this weekend what you can do for your country, to answer the call to this five alarm fire, maybe somebody was saying earlier, 50 alarm fire that's just going off the charts right now. It's something we all have to think about, what we can each do individually to help help this country get to the other side of this because it's, we're coming up on 100 days. It's been 100 days of hell in this country, pure hell. But as I said the other night at the town hall, I see a light in the darkness. I don't just see darkness, folks. I see lights in the darkness. And it's, it's you and me. It's all of us working together. It. Thanks again for watching this week. Duke's been coming up to me in the last several minutes. He needs some attention now, so I better get going. I hope you enjoy your Friday evening. Hope you enjoy your weekend. Still reporting from Washington, I'm Jim Acosta. Have a good night, guys. Take care.