← The Jinger & Jeremy Podcast
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- [00:01]
Narrator/Announcer
New CBS Sunday.
- [00:02]
Jeremy
The Grammys, baby. History will be made live.
- [00:07]
Narrator/Announcer
Unfiltered, unexpected. Bigger than ever. Bigger stars, bigger performances. Music's biggest night is getting bigger.
- [00:20]
Jeremy
Now you see what all the hype is about.
- [00:21]
Narrator/Announcer
Trevor Noah hosts the Grammy Awards live.
- [00:24]
Ginger
Anything is possible.
- [00:26]
Narrator/Announcer
CBS Sunday and streaming on Paramount.
- [00:29]
Brooklyn Adams
Plus, hey, it's Brooklyn Adams, and I'm partnering with Abercrombie to tell you about the newest drop from their active brand. Your personal best YPB leggings are made with buttery, soft fabrics that hug you in all the right places. And common Abercrombie's viral curve love fit designed to eliminate waist gap, paired with sports bras and super soft sweatshirts. It's activewear that supports every part of my busy lifestyle and gives me my best butt ever. Head into the new year feeling your personal best. Shop Active by Abercrombie in the app, online and in stores.
- [01:00]
Jeremy
The topic is dating. What are unrealistic expectations for a guy or a girl?
- [01:06]
Ginger
I had a lot of expectations for what a relationship would look like. He can't go to a movie theater. He better not go to the gym, because then maybe he'll fall into adultery or sin. Like, I always had this, like, lingering fear of, like, oh, no. If I enter a relationship with someone and if I'm married to them, how will I ever truly know who they are?
- [01:27]
Jeremy
And here's the thing. Once they get out of the bubble.
- [01:30]
Ginger
Yeah.
- [01:30]
Jeremy
All of a sudden, their true colors are shown.
- [01:32]
Ginger
Yeah. Because.
- [01:33]
Jeremy
And you go, oh, I'm married to a monster.
- [01:34]
Ginger
Yes.
- [01:35]
Jeremy
How can you truly ever know someone? There is a way to know.
- [01:39]
Ginger
Yeah.
- [01:39]
Jeremy
Like, there is a confidence you can have.
- [01:41]
Ginger
Yeah.
- [01:42]
Jeremy
So we'll get into that, because when I entered the world of the Duggar TV show, I remember going, you know, what's wrong with this show? Like, you know the problem with this show? And doing, like, a little, like, diatribe on my disdain for something I perceived on the Duggar show.
- [01:59]
Ginger
Okay, let's jump in. What did you disdain?
- [02:06]
Jeremy
What's going on, guys? We're back for another episode of the Ginger and Jeremy podcast. Ginger, how are you?
- [02:12]
Ginger
Good. How are you doing?
- [02:13]
Jeremy
Good. You know what I think is funny is sometimes we'll start our podcast asking each other questions like that. And obviously, we live in the same house and we're married.
- [02:24]
Ginger
Yep. We are married.
- [02:26]
Jeremy
That's true. And so I. I do know how you're doing.
- [02:29]
Ginger
Yeah.
- [02:30]
Jeremy
And people will comment sometimes and go, do you guys not know each other? Like, aren't you, like, I'm like, well, we're asking for you guys, like, this is the podcast. Like, give an update for the people. Like, obviously, we live in the same house, so I know how you're doing.
- [02:47]
Ginger
That's so funny.
- [02:49]
Jeremy
It is funny. But, hey, I'm excited about today's episode, Ginge, because the topic is dating. The topic is expectations. In dating, what are unrealistic expectations for a guy or a girl? And so we're going to get into it, but I actually want to begin with a little bit of my disdain for something I perceived on the Duggar show.
- [03:15]
Ginger
Okay, let's jump in.
- [03:16]
Jeremy
What did you disdain before ever knowing you? So I. My. My pastor and his family would watch the show. Like, the girls would watch the show. So that's how I found out about your family. I had no idea. I had no framework for the Duggars, so I had to go through what so many people go through as well. There's this family. They have 19 kids. I'm like, 19 kids, you know, and they're Christians and this and that. And so I remember those conversations. And I was in my pastor's living room, and they were watching a show once, and I remember going, you know, what's wrong with this show? Like, you know the problem with this show? And doing, like, a little, like, diatribe on the problem with this show and these type of shows is this. And I remember it like it was yesterday. You know what episode we were watching?
- [04:08]
Ginger
Which one?
- [04:08]
Jeremy
It was Ben proposing to Jessa.
- [04:12]
Ginger
Oh, my goodness.
- [04:13]
Jeremy
And you were in that episode.
- [04:14]
Ginger
Scavenger Hunt.
- [04:15]
Jeremy
Yes. So to frame that episode for you, we should do a react episode with Ben and Jessa on that one. But Ben's. I mean, you Duggar fans will know this, but Ben's proposal was, like, this incredible scavenger hunt. And we've talked to Ben about this before. Like, the airplane giving her clues, and she's flying all over Arkansas, and it was just incredible. So it's like wholesome television, and you're watching it, and whenever people come up to the Duggars, they're always like, hey, thanks for giving us a wholesome TV show to watch. But I'm sitting there in the living room as a single guy going, this is not helpful. It's not helping guys like me, because it's setting expectations for girls on, like, what they should be expecting from a guy. The deep irony of it, Ginger, is.
- [05:08]
Ginger
You ended up on the show doing the same thing, proposing to me in the same way on a New York.
- [05:14]
Jeremy
City rooftop with a rainbow behind us.
- [05:16]
Ginger
With A live orchestra going.
- [05:19]
Jeremy
I mean, that's the irony of it. It's so funny, Jer, that, you know, I became that. And I think my perspective's changed a bit on it. But I remember kind of being fired up and going, this is not.
- [05:35]
Ginger
This is gonna make it impossible for all of us.
- [05:38]
Jeremy
Yeah. When you have, like a film crew going, hey, we'll pay for whatever. We'll help you plan. Let's make this extravagant TV worthy proposal.
- [05:48]
Ginger
Yeah.
- [05:49]
Jeremy
You go, come on. The common guy is just trying to, like, he's gonna spend the money on the ring. Yeah. And take the NIA in and out, you know, the first place they kissed and go, hey, will you marry me? And she'll go, yes. And her mom's there, and her best friend comes down around the corner and there's a photographer behind a car. Like, that's the proposal, you know, And I just remember thinking, there's an idealism that's being presented on this TV show that is not helpful.
- [06:18]
Ginger
Interesting.
- [06:19]
Jeremy
So we'll get into that because when I entered the world of the Duggar TV show, I realized, like, oh, no, like, Ben is very sincere. Like, this wasn't like, just a production.
- [06:32]
Ginger
Yeah.
- [06:34]
Jeremy
Now there's production aspects to it. But when we're talking about dating, dating is such a huge topic or courting, and a lot of our listeners are in that genre. Genre? Demographic, yeah. Single, wanting to be married. What should a girl's expectations be for a guy they're looking to date to one day marry? Maybe take us back to, like, little young Ginger. When you first started to think that way, what expectations did you have?
- [07:06]
Ginger
I had a lot of expectations for what a relationship would look like and what that guy would be and how things would come about. So I definitely was following the courtship rules that my family had. And I think that some of that can actually be fine. Like, when you're looking at somebody saying, okay, how would this person treat me? What are their goals in life? Do they have goals? And there are just certain things that were non negotiables for me. But a lot of those were based in, like, the teachings of Bill Gothard, baby. And a fear based mindset. And so when I would look at a relationship, I'd say, how am I going to set myself up for success long term based on maybe an outward standard or what this guy holds to or says. And so a couple of those things would be like. Like, he needs to be debt free. Otherwise, like, completely debt free.
- [08:11]
Jeremy
Yeah.
- [08:13]
Ginger
And the interesting thing is, like, not every guy was gonna I didn't think, like, oh, every single person that comes around will have to already be debt free. But he has to, like, be willing to do that. And another thing was, like, he definitely needed to have, you know, certain things in place in his life. As far as, like, even accountability was, like, huge. Cause I had a big fear that, like, almost if you can't control a guy, like, he's not gonna survive this world. Cause it is a dark world. It's full of sin. And I thought, like, oh, he has to have major restrictions on his phone. He has to be super accountable with, like, every little decision that he makes. And he can't go to a movie theater. He better not go to the gym. Because then maybe he'll fall into adultery or sin because maybe he'll see somebody else that's more attractive. And, like, I won't be as attractive for him. So I think a lot of it for me was, like, it wasn't just a basic relationship, like, thinking through, who is this person? How do they view the world? It was more, like, rules and, like, things that I thought were gonna protect my relationship with this person, person and keep me safe. So I'm thinking on the negative side. Like, I had expectations of that for a future spouse. So it's interesting because some of that isn't bad when you think about, like, oh, I want the guy to have, like, a genuine heart. I want him to love Jesus and to live his life according to the Bible. Like, that's great. That's awesome. But I think that within the setting that we were in, there was a lot of fear around it. And almost like you feeling like, if I set up all these things, then everything's gonna be perfect and this is how I'm gonna control the situation.
- [10:22]
Jeremy
Yeah.
- [10:23]
Ginger
So not a trust in God. Not a trust even in that person. Almost. But I remember feeling afraid, which I've talked about this a lot. I was so afraid of, like, not knowing who that person was gonna be deep down. Like, I always had this, like, lingering fear of, like, oh, no. If I enter a relationship with someone, and if I'm married to them, how will I ever truly know who they are? We wanna take a break from this episode to tell you about Cozy Earth.
- [10:53]
Jeremy
You've gotta expand your Cozy Earth arsenal from just the sheets, blankets. But now you can basically walk around your house with the sheets on you in the bamboo pajama set.
- [11:06]
Ginger
Oh, yes. I actually have been wearing them almost every single night. And when I say that the other couple nights, I was, like, just wearing My regular Nike shorts because sometimes I'm too tired to change into pajamas in the season of life. But those. When I actually am wearing my Cozy Earth pajamas, I sleep so much better because I have the Cozy Earth pajamas, which are super soft. And then I hop into bed and there's Cozy Earth sheets. So you can't get any better than that. And then they're bath towels. So.
- [11:38]
Jeremy
And I know some of you are thinking like, hey, these are just the necessities of life. You know, I don't really think about what bath towels I have or a pajama set. Well, you'll say that until you try Cozy Earth.
- [11:48]
Ginger
Yeah.
- [11:48]
Jeremy
Then it'll become like an absolute necessity in your house.
- [11:51]
Ginger
We've gifted these pajamas to a lot of people and they're incredible.
- [11:56]
Jeremy
Okay, so these viral PJs are so good, they sold out during the holidays and now they're back in stock and only available from January 25th through February 8th. Head to cozyearth.com use our code gingerbogo. So J I N G E R B O G O to get these PJs for you and for someone you love. That means you buy one, get one. That's an incredible deal.
- [12:20]
Ginger
Amazing.
- [12:21]
Jeremy
Or just get two for yourself. And if you get a post purchase survey, let them know that we sent you from the podcast.
- [12:27]
Ginger
Now back to the episode. And I think a lot of that stemmed from fear of what I'd been through. You know, even just seeing people make choices that were really painful and hard and not knowing exactly who that person was, it was scary for me.
- [12:46]
Jeremy
Well, I'll just say this, and I think a lot of people are going to relate to this who are listening. I was scared of that same thing. If you grew up in the church, you might have had early on when you first start thinking about relationships, this idea of like a bulletproof plan to find someone who will never abandon you, never mistreat you. There's a safety in the church, and there genuinely is a safety in the church in the sense of like, okay, this is where believers should be, like people who love and obey Jesus. But I remember thinking, and this is kind of a core memory for me, being in church, seeing a guy in the pulpit who is like a leader, maybe an elder or a deacon or some leader in the church. And I just remember seeing him. And then it was some months later, I was told, like, his wife packed the bags, left, took the kids, and was like, peace, I'm out. Abandoned the faith, was like, I'm not a Christian. I'M out. And it solidified this fear I had of like, how am I ever gonna know if my wife is the real deal? And how am I ever gonna get to a place where I'm confident, you know, standing across from her saying, I do. Mm. How can you truly ever know someone? And I think I'll leave it till like maybe a little later in the episode. Well, I don't know. We'll talk about it now, I guess, like. Well, no, I mean, I don't know. I don't know how to plot this thing out, Ginge. But there is a way to know.
- [14:21]
Ginger
Yeah.
- [14:21]
Jeremy
Like there is a confidence you can have.
- [14:23]
Ginger
Yeah.
- [14:25]
Jeremy
However, I think the natural inclination is to try to find like these man made means and mechanisms to control so that like, to manipulate and to create.
- [14:38]
Ginger
A false sense of safety.
- [14:40]
Jeremy
Yeah.
- [14:40]
Ginger
Because I think sadly we've all seen it. There have been so many people who you've seen, like, get married and then they're like, well, it just doesn't work out. Or that person does end up turning into something that they didn't think. This spouse didn't think that they were. But I think that can happen around, you know, almost anywhere. But at the same time, I think that there can be a safety, which is what I want to talk about too. So, like, what even what for you were some of those things that you thought would create safety and they would make you feel even secure in a relationship. Did you guys, did you guys even have like some of those safety same rules and standards? Because we for sure did. We had certain things that we thought, oh, this will protect us and safeguard a relationship. I mean, did you grow up being taught that? Did you see relationships operating in a certain way that seemed to be the safest and best option? No.
- [15:43]
Jeremy
I mean, like, we didn't have it so blatantly like you did. I think what Gothard did was like, he really like nailed down, here's the seven steps to this and the five steps to this. So if you're looking at a potential, you know, boyfriend or girlfriend, you're going campion debt, you know, has to have these standards of modesty, has to, you know, believe this about birth control, like those sort of things. And those are the safety metrics. We didn't have those delineated, so. No, I really didn't. I was, it was interesting. I, my, my journey of singleness was like, I knew what I was. Well, I didn't know what I was looking for in terms of like, who she is, but I knew I hadn't Found I hadn't found her. There was one thing, and this kind of is part of my story, which I think is just so cool and providential, is I was pastoring this church in Laredo, and I would journal, and I recommend that to everybody, like, to journal. I've started to do it again. I've really lacked the last year or so. And so just this morning, I'm like, I just have to write something down just to get it going every day. But I remember really writing in my journal about struggling, wanting to be married, wanting to find, feeling lonely, feeling like there's no options for me. I genuinely just thought, like, I'm like, I will never find someone who's willing to marry me. And you're the poor soul that.
- [17:11]
Ginger
Oh, my goodness.
- [17:14]
Jeremy
But I wrote down something in my journal about, like, yeah, this isn't going well, or something. Or, like, I'm lonely, whatever. And then under it, I went, oh, I met Ben and Jessa Seawald today. Like, they came over to my house. Oh, no, no. This is how it went. Sorry. I wrote down in that season of loneliness, like, characteristics that I was wanting in a wife. And I had some of those things, but they were, like, not, like, the superficial things. They were, like, willing to go wherever God leads her. Like, a love for others, like, those sort of things. And then the next journal entry a week later was, hey, Ben and Jessica, see Walder at my house today. And that.
- [17:57]
Ginger
That's crazy.
- [17:58]
Jeremy
So that was a cool little provenance of it. But what I would say to someone who's looking at that, because it's not wrong to have standards. It's not wrong to say, well, I'm looking for someone like this. You don't just open the floodgates and go, yeah, whoever.
- [18:11]
Ginger
Yeah, 100%.
- [18:15]
Jeremy
But to say, I want someone who is submitted to the Word of God. For me, that was the big breaking point, was, like, whoever she is, I want her to be submitted to the Word of God, which I think is, like, that precipitates so much more, because it's a humility. It's a love for the Word. It's a love for God. It's a care for. What does he say? It's a willingness to follow where he leads. So I didn't care if she was in my theological vein. I didn't care if she was, like, from my culture. I didn't care if she thought the same way I thought about everything. I wanted a girl who submitted her life to the Word of God because that's all I was trying to do is go, I just want to live according to the Word. And you know what's really interesting, Love is I found her. That's very cool. The second thing is, the only restriction given in Scripture to a Christian who wants to get married is in First Corinthians 7:39, Paul says, a wife is bound to her husband as long as he lives, but if her husband dies, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord. The requirement is you marry a Christian. But we put on all these, like, extra, like, oh, it's gotta be this, it's gotta be this, it's gotta be this kind, it's gotta be that. And it's like, Scripture's like, hey, marry who you'd like in the Lord. Don't be unequally yoked. You know, that whole thing. So I'm curious about, like, young Ginger, the way you thought about that. Do you remember actually consciously thinking, like, I'm gonna marry this type of guy with these convictions and this kind of.
- [19:56]
Ginger
Yeah, I actually did. I think there was this season where even in my young teens, I would have started, like, noticing boys, but then I would not even say hello to any of them because I was trying to guard my heart.
- [20:11]
Jeremy
Oh, guard the heart. That's a big thing.
- [20:13]
Ginger
We were in a big, like, purity culture where it was all focused on you not giving pieces of your heart away.
- [20:24]
Jeremy
Yeah.
- [20:24]
Ginger
And so they thought, like, okay, if you even have an interaction with a young man, like, he comes up and talks to you, you need to guard your heart and protect it. Because if you are saying, hello, showing interest, then that's giving little pieces of your heart away. And by the time that you meet your husband, then you'll only have maybe a small piece of your heart to give to him. And if you gave them, what was that about?
- [20:54]
Jeremy
Where did that come from?
- [20:55]
Ginger
This idea of where that came from?
- [20:57]
Jeremy
Protecting your heart?
- [20:58]
Ginger
Yeah. I don't know where that came from.
- [21:00]
Jeremy
Did that make you afraid to, like, have interactions with people?
- [21:03]
Ginger
Yeah, I think that I was very afraid of giving pieces of my heart away or showing somebody any interest. So I kind of was super afraid to, like, have any relationships with any boys, even as friends, because I was thinking, oh, no, I gotta guard my heart. Gotta guard my heart. So part of that was I almost suppressed my personality. And when guys would come around, I'd almost just, like, be, like, timid and shy. Who I was, not who I was at that time. I was funny. I was, like, spunky. Even on the show, you could see, like, a lot of people were like, oh, my goodness. I had, like, you know, a thousand facial expressions. But when guys would come around, I was just, you know, like. Like, almost suppress it. And not everybody reacted that way, but I think I was such a rule follower, and I really wanted to honor God, so I kind of did that. And thinking that I was honoring God. And also, I think that just being in the public space where a lot of moms would come up and would be like, oh, my goodness, my son, he wanted to meet you. And there was always moms trying to set up.
- [22:13]
Jeremy
So that's the crazy thing about the Duggar Girls world is you guys had moms and the sons and the men trying to set themselves up with you guys incessantly.
- [22:24]
Ginger
Yeah.
- [22:24]
Jeremy
Whether it was letters from prison, whether it was moms emailing, whether it was in person, you'd actually have moms come up and their sons right there.
- [22:31]
Ginger
Yes. And their son was super, super awkward because, bless them, they were standing next to their mom.
- [22:40]
Jeremy
You've been blessed by gingerbread.
- [22:41]
Jackson Hewitt Advertiser
Yeah.
- [22:42]
Ginger
Their mom, though, for real, was, like, trying to set them up, which was sweet. She may have saw the show and be like, oh, he needs to meet one of the Duggar Girls. So he'd, like, you know, usher him up to Jessa. Like, he really wants to meet you. And he's standing there like, oh, mom, just stop. I don't like. Or if he did, he was.
- [22:58]
Jeremy
Or if he thought, hey, mom's.
- [22:59]
Jackson Hewitt Advertiser
Thanks.
- [22:59]
Ginger
He was like, great. Thanks, Mom. Now this is awkward. Cause you told him, and so that happened countless times. But I think even with those interactions.
- [23:10]
Jeremy
You really mean countless times. Like, that happened all the time.
- [23:12]
Ginger
A lot all the time.
- [23:15]
Jeremy
So how did that make you feel? Real quick? Because that's fascinating, Ginge. Like, that's. That's not.
- [23:19]
Ginger
I think a lot of people have that happen to them.
- [23:21]
Jeremy
Uh, not like that girl. Well, look, I think a lot of girls in church have the whole guy coming up saying, hey, God told me. But you guys incessantly had people in the strangest ways.
- [23:36]
Ginger
Yeah.
- [23:37]
Jeremy
How did that make you feel? Did you guys just laugh about it? Like, would you, Janet?
- [23:41]
Ginger
We didn't take it seriously. I think every once in a while, if it was somebody, we were like, oh, well, we kind of, you know, maybe that could be potential. We honestly would just. We'd be on onto the next city the next day. Like, half the time was like, on a book tour or visiting a church.
- [23:59]
Jeremy
Did you ever think, like, how do these guys know who I am?
- [24:02]
Ginger
I Knew how they knew because they had watched the show.
- [24:04]
Jeremy
I mean, like, know you, but, like, not know you.
- [24:06]
Ginger
They did not know us. And that was also part of it was. I think in my mind, it was a little more scary because then I was thinking, if they're a fan. Yeah, if they're legit, like a fan who's watched the show, are they more interested in getting to know me or just wanting to be on the show? Cause that also was scary. And so I think that a lot of us girls didn't give it the time of day. Now, some of them, every once in a while, there would be, like, someone who was super serious or they might have met our family. And then they came and visited, and maybe their family came to visit and you'd hang out with them for a little bit. And then it was like, oh, no, that probably wouldn't work out. And so that happened a couple times. But I think most of the time, at least for me, I was like, no, thank you, because there was too many risks there. And also, I think because I was in the system of believing a lot of the teachings of Bill Gothard, I also wanted somebody who was in that system because that felt safe for me. And so I remember even at one point, when I had interest in somebody, they were in the system, they were all believing Bill Gothard's teachings. And then that is the kind of person I ultimately pictured myself with was somebody who was like, you know, it's funny, I would say, like, somebody who had, like, a single service commitment, who was, like, focused on the Lord. Now, a single service commitment was something that Bill Gothard put in place where you would dedicate so many years of your life to the Lord to serve him undistracted. So it could be anywhere from like five to ten years of. Of, like, wow, like, I'm gonna dedicate my life to the Lord for these years. And a lot of people would have done that even in their younger years, given more time. And I thought that's so impressive because they're setting aside that time to really serve the Lord undistracted. And that's so amazing. And, wow, that must be a disciplined person. And so it was funny because I think even within that, like, I would look at some of those young men, and I'd be like, wow, they're really amazing because they're teaching Bill Gothard's teachings to all these people, and it's really impressive. And I believe, like, a lot of them probably loved Christ, but for me, that felt safe to think of Myself, like, marrying somebody in iblp. But then it's interesting because even all these years later, spoiler. I married somebody outside the system. And I look back, and I'm like, wow, thank you, Lord, for protecting me from that.
- [26:55]
Jeremy
Well, here's the danger is the system is what's being trusted.
- [26:59]
Ginger
Yes.
- [26:59]
Jeremy
And adherence to it. Like, this person's able to keep the rules. Oh, they stay in line. But for many of those men, they'd never actually been truly tested. Do they really love the Lord? And how do you know? And so as you're thinking about someone, I'm say this to, like, a young, single person. If you're thinking about someone, you want to know, like, have they been through it?
- [27:24]
Ginger
Yeah.
- [27:24]
Jeremy
Has their faith genuinely been tested?
- [27:27]
Ginger
Yeah. Most of them, like, a lot of them were just in the bubble, so they went from living at mommy and daddy's house.
- [27:33]
Jeremy
And here's the thing. Once they get out of the bubble.
- [27:35]
Ginger
Yeah.
- [27:36]
Jeremy
All of a sudden, their true colors are shown.
- [27:38]
Ginger
Yeah.
- [27:38]
Jeremy
And you go, oh, I'm married to a monster.
- [27:40]
Ginger
Yes. Yes, exactly. And I think that's something that not everyone. Like, half of them have stayed in the bubble, I think. But I think, like, a lot of that looking at it now, I'm like, ooh, that's really scary. Like, it's super scary, because if. If they're just going through the motions and they were a child and they're just saying the right house, and then they just go to a place where now they're the teacher, and. And they're never having other people who even think differently than them that they're engaging with. They can't even engage their mind. They're just in a system of, like, repeating things, saying things, not thinking for themselves. Like, then eventually, if they happen to get out of that cycle of, like, oh, this is the rule that I'm going to teach them. This is what I'm going to teach my kids. I had that in my mind. I had it in my mind of exactly how my life would go.
- [28:39]
Jeremy
Well, you were at 14. You had everything figured out.
- [28:42]
Ginger
Yeah. I'm gonna teach my kids this. They're gonna not go to public school. They're gonna.
- [28:46]
Jeremy
And it's all gonna turn out this.
- [28:47]
Ginger
Way, and my kids are gonna be perfect. And if they have issues as teens, I'd always look at families with rebellious teens, and I'd say, I know what they did wrong, and I knew the answer for that. So I was like, oh, man, I wish that they could go to a seminar and hear the teachings or I could teach them that. And this is a 12, 13, 14 year old girl. And so I always had the answer in my mind because that's what Bill Gothard said. And so I think moving past that and seeing, wow, it's much deeper than that.
- [29:21]
Jeremy
Well, it's beyond theory. It's living life out.
- [29:24]
Ginger
Yes. And seeing that, okay, these rules and these ideas of how a relationship is gonna go, how a family's gonna be raised, that is not just a recipe that everybody can follow and get the same outcome of acceptance.
- [29:38]
Jeremy
That's not how life works.
- [29:40]
Ginger
Because even as believers, we are raising our kids to love Jesus. We want to point them to Christ from an early age. We're doing our best to like, you know, hopefully point our kids to Jesus, show them like mom and dad are not perfect. We sin, we fail, and, and we wanna ask forgiveness, we wanna be showing them that. But then at the same time it's like, I think it's scarier without a system to rely on, without this black and white guarantee of success. Because now as parents, I look at it and I'm like, wow, it is so scary. But then at the same time, it's also freeing knowing like it's not all on us to get our kids to turn out perfectly because we're going to do our best and make the decisions prayerfully that we feel like we should make for our kids. But it's not like you have the perfect formula, right?
- [30:41]
Jeremy
Yeah, you have to. It's, it's. Life is more complicated than a formula. It's life is not a cash register where you put in a certain amount and you get a certain amount out. It's unpredictable, it's hard, it's challenging. And the theory of a system is like, hey, theoretically, if you do this and this, this will happen. And so a 12 year old ginger's like, I'm gonna marry a guy who believes this, this, this, this. We're gonna ride off into the sunset, everything will be great. And what happened for a lot of those girls was they did marry that person, he turns out to be a monster and now their life is a wreck because they never actually saw. Is that man's faith tested? Does he really believe this? If you put a gun to, you know, deny the faith, he's going, I will not deny the faith. You know, metaphorically, like is he, has he experienced temptation that he's resisting? And these guys get out into the real world and they become something else. Well, really what they always were, but they were just behaving well in this system. And I think that's where we both had, like, fear going into marriage, because we're like, how do I know I'm not just marrying a guy who talks the talk, but he doesn't walk the walk.
- [31:51]
Ginger
Yeah. And you know what? Even for me personally, like, looking at my life and who I was trying to be, I had in my mind, even as a woman, like, this is who I'm supposed to be.
- [32:03]
Jeremy
Yeah.
- [32:03]
Ginger
I want to be agreeable, which I've talked about this before. But, like, I want to be the perfect wife for my husband. That way he'll always be happy, he'll be satisfied with me, and he'll think that I'm incredible. And so I tried to do that when we were first married, thinking like, oh, man, I'm going to be perfectly leopard, wife, robot. I'm just going to, yes, yes, whatever you want. Like, happy all the time, never have a bad day. That way my husband will appreciate and care for me. And I think you did not put up with that. And you said, no, I want to know who you are.
- [32:38]
Jeremy
Well, I married Ginger. Yeah.
- [32:40]
Ginger
Because you wanted to get to the bottom of, like, who is Ginger? And you wanted me to think for myself, not just to be a robot. So I think that was helpful because in that system, that was another thing that I leaned on, was like, the safety of that, of always being agreeable. And still there are many times where I have a rough season or a rough attitude, and I'm like, oh, dang it, Jeremy's just not. He's not gonna be so happy with me. And then you're like, that's ridiculous. You can have hard days and that's fine. Yeah. We don't want to just be sour with our attitudes and. And just say, well, that's who I am, you know? But at the same time, to realize.
- [33:20]
Jeremy
We'Re human and to let you know you're not in competition with anybody.
- [33:23]
Ginger
Yeah. And that's the part of it. That's that I think you're not competing for my heart. Yes. And that's the same thing with you. Like, I think that I, you know, can have an expectation that, oh, my, I need to be this way because this is what Jeremy expects of me. And that was just self imposed from the start. And I think that it can take years just to like, to realize, no, like, that's not how I should be thinking. That's not what marriage is. And I think it's been a beautiful thing because I've relaxed more the further into marriage we get. The More. I realize, like, wow, this is so much fun. We get to do life together, and we are each other's best friends, for better, for worse. Our hard days, our good days, like, we're doing life together. And there are times where you feel down, and maybe I'm stronger in that moment. There are times where I feel down, which is more of the time. You. It's like, one day a year, you'll have a hard day, and it's like, you're just, oh, man, what's going on? You know me maybe more, like, weekly, but I think with that, like, just realizing, no, it's okay. We're in this together. We're a team. And that's something that you have done such a good job reminding me of, that we're a team. We're in this together. Whether, you know, I'm home with kids or you're home with the kids, and it's a rough day. No, we're a team. Like, you're not just out doing your thing. I'm not just out doing my thing. Like, whatever doing. We want to be on the same page. Do it together. But I think that also has been, like, a shift. It's been a change in my mind as to, like, even what we're doing in marriage. Like, in. I don't even know. I feel like I'm rambling at this.
- [35:18]
Jeremy
Point, but I think there's. Yeah, it's proven, like, okay, there's a genuine. We're not just. I mean, we're in this together. There's a genuine unity. But when you're single and alone and you're going, I don't know if this is gonna turn out, like, with this person. And so we have all of these expectations that we set up, and we think those are gonna keep us safe. Like, even that courtship questionnaire. Like, as helpful as that is, just because someone answers all those questions correct doesn't mean they're a good dude. Like, it doesn't mean they actually will love you, and it doesn't mean they're honest, and they love God and are gonna be in a good. They could be an absolute monster. They just know how to play the game. Like, there's some of the most manipulative people you know, are religious people who know how to play the game and know how to answer everything right. Which is why I would say, for someone who's single and looking and going, is this person for me? There's a couple pieces of advice I would give, and this, I think, gets really practical. One is, it should keep you from doing relationships in an isolated way.
- [36:27]
Ginger
Yes, 100%.
- [36:29]
Jeremy
So you're not isolated in your relationship where you're making a judgment call on this person by yourself, because it's easy over the phone at dinner to play someone. But do you know people who genuinely know them and trust them and speak well of them, or the people in their life who know them, their family, their fellow church members, their friends, their colleagues, their co workers. Do they go, oh, that person's like a sleazeball. Or oh, I don't trust them. Or oh, they treat me awful. Oh, wow, they treat me so nice. So you must be seeing it wrong. It's like, no, no, no date in community. And I tell the young people all the time, like in college ministry, like two people fall in love, you know, there's puppy love, whatever, and they just go off together. And it's just the two of them now. And their friends go, oh, where'd they go? And everybody makes the joke like, oh, yeah, they got a girlfriend, they got a boyfriend. No, no, no, no. You should be conducting your relationship in the setting of others because there's safety there in the presence of many counselors. There's safety, the proverb says.
- [37:37]
Ginger
And I think that's something, honestly, that gave me confidence and peace was knowing people who knew you because you were an outsider in many ways to us. And you knew Ben, my brother in law. That was our connection.
- [37:54]
Jeremy
And he knew a lot of people that were in my life.
- [37:57]
Ginger
And he did. And I think that I remember even my parents wanted to know, like, who are your friends? You know, like, what are your parents like? And so they even got to know your parents, even though we were long distance, like called people. You had like a pastor, you know, multiple pastors actually, that were you were doing life with and doing ministry with.
- [38:20]
Jeremy
And that's what gave me comfort about you too. Because I was like, when you start speaking of people, whether it was your dad, Ben and Jess, and then I started when I came into your orbit, then I start talking to others, right? And the consistent theme was hit Ginger's humility, Ginger's selfless service, your character, your love for the Lord and for others. It was like, oh, this isn't just like her best friend going, oh, Ginger's the best. And then everybody else is like, yeah, buzz off. So, single person, are you looking at these people you're interested in? Do you know people who know them? I mean, know them. People who've known them through the hard times and the good times, People who Know their deep, deepest, darkest struggles. If it's all superficial, I would be afraid. Like, I'd be real nervous if I only knew someone superficially and with what they presented to me.
- [39:12]
Ginger
Yep.
- [39:12]
Jeremy
You're committing your life to them. Yeah. So date, court, conduct, relationships in the context of community. And then the second thing is, how do you see them living out their love of the Lord? Do they obey the Lord and do they care? Or are they just their own agenda? Are they. Humbly submitted. I'll never forget this story. This is when I was a kid, and it made an indelible impact on me. I was probably 10, 11 years old. We were visiting a church in Virginia. We'd visited often when we'd go for vacation. And there was this guy, and he had a girl, and they were thinking about getting engaged, and we came back like, a year later or something, and they were engaged, and they were telling us their engagement story. You know, when she knew she was going to marry him, when they were dating, he came home from, like, a date or something, and his literal house was burning down. His house burned down. And in that moment, she saw him lose every earthly possession he had. And she watched and she went, that's my husband.
- [40:26]
Ginger
Wow.
- [40:27]
Jeremy
Because it wasn't theory at that point. His patience wasn't theory. His gratitude to the Lord and the good and bad wasn't theory. His acceptance of God's will wasn't theory. It was his life as his house is burning down. And she went, that's my husband.
- [40:43]
Ginger
Wow.
- [40:43]
Jeremy
Because that's who I want to raise my kid. Like, that's who I want to be. Like, that's who I want to be with. That's what. So have you seen this person genuinely submit their life to the Lord? Or when things get hard, do they cuss and kick and grumble and complain? And you go, I can trust someone who I've actually seen. That's what I saw with you. When I met you. Your family was literally in hiding. Like, I met you. And then it was like, three or four months later, I go out, visit Ben and Jessa, and everything broke. The news broke of the first scandal, and your family's literally in hiding. And I had a relationship with you through those months. And I'm, like, watching how you were responding to your life crumble on international headlines. And I was going, okay, this isn't theory. This is, like, this is actually real life. That her faith is in practice.
- [41:37]
Ginger
You know what's interesting, too? I think because you came around at that time, there was something in Me that, like, you can only be on so much in that time when it is not. It's not easy, it's not fun, it's not popular to be our friend. And I think that that honestly was like, I was glad that you were able to be around at that time because I think that you saw our family in a place that a lot of people weren't able to have a front row seat too. And I was thankful for that. And I think also I remember once we started talking, yeah, finally came to a point where I remember telling my mom after a missions trip, which I've said this before, but I came home from a missions trip where all the conditions were not perfect. And I just saw you in a lot of different scenarios and how you responded. I was just watching you that whole time on the missions trip. And I came home and told my mom, I said, I feel safe with him. And prior to that, I had never felt safe with anyone. I had had, like, oh, this person could be fine. Maybe I should move forward in relationship. Oh, maybe that could work out. Always hopeful, but I never had confidence or peace with anything. And it wasn't until that time. And I think that God gave that to me because I thought it was going to be much harder, especially walking through those scandals and seeing somebody you thought you knew just be the complete opposite. That terrified me for marriage. I was very afraid and I thought, I don't know if I'll ever feel confident at the altar. And when I told my mom that, it was huge because I knew that God had given me peace in moving forward in relationship with you. It wasn't without challenge. And yeah, there were days too, where I think my own insecurity and fear, even marrying somebody outside of that setting kicked in. But then even with that fear that started to creep back in, I would look at the reality of the situation and I'd say, okay, I'm not gonna just take my emotions this day and say, oh, I'm gonna just feel great about this relationship and move forward. But I look at truth and just say, okay, like this. This is who Jeremy is deep down. This is what I've learned about him. This is what I appreciate. And not that I thought you were a perfect person, but I realized that, okay, I'm not going to marry somebody that has it all together on paper. Because, you know, you had some years where you've shared publicly where you were not walking with the Lord or not pursuing him like you wish you would have. And even with that, like that, in our setting would have been enough to be like, oh, no way, I'm not going to take a chance with this guy, you know. But I think that God gives peace and confidence when you have, like you said, you're getting to know that person in community, you're around other people, you have wise counselors in your life. And not everybody was like, oh, go for Jeremy. And I think part of that was.
- [45:07]
Jeremy
A lot were saying don't.
- [45:08]
Ginger
A lot were saying don't. But the ones who mattered the most, like even my parents and other close friends and counselors, no, he's a great guy and we would fully support this relationship. And so I think that's something that can be tricky and it's hard because ultimately it's you who's gonna live with the person, it's you who's gonna marry them. And you wanna be certain that that's who you wanna live the rest of your life with. And I'm so glad that God gave that peace and confidence, even when I never would have expected to marry somebody outside of that system.
- [45:47]
Jeremy
Right.
- [45:49]
Ginger
So happy married to you.
- [45:51]
Jeremy
I'm happy you're married to me too.
- [45:52]
Ginger
It's been a fun.
- [45:53]
Jeremy
But it almost gives you more confidence to see someone having drifted from the Lord or endured certain temptations or not done so great in certain temptations and then come back because it's like, no, I'm a Christian, like I thought. Yeah, like I thought. And the temptation would be like, oh, my past with drinking and my past with partying and all the sins that go with it, like, that's gonna keep her away. So I wish I had this perfect buttoned up testimony. And yeah, in the sense of like, well, I wish I'd never sinned ever. But actually the confidence knowing, like, if I see somebody say, oh, they went out to the world, they lived in the world, they had a secular job, they endured this, they gave in there, they struggled here. And here they stand today going, I'm a follower of Jesus and I'm going to walk with him. You go tried and true as opposed to the person who's just gone. All I've ever known is the bubble. And I say the right things, do the right things, but it's all theory for them. You go, well, at some point you are going to be faced with temptation. What's going to happen then?
- [46:59]
Ginger
And that's not saying too, you can't marry some. You have to only marry somebody who's been through.
- [47:03]
Jeremy
And I'm not saying, go sow your wild oats. And then, you know, come out here and. And then come back to Jesus. No, no, no. But. But there has to be something where you go, this faith is proven. Yeah, faith proven. That's why God had Abraham offer Isaac because he was putting feet to his faith. Do you believe me? Yes. And what's interesting, the the author of the Hebrews in chapter 11 says Abraham thought, well, I guess God's just going to raise him from the dead because he said, I believe God, and. And so I will act. Is the person you're interested in, have you seen feet on their faith or is it just theory? Okay, that's encouraging. Ginge, there's more for us to talk about, especially maybe as we lead up to, like, Valentine's Day, maybe we'll do another episode on something like dating wise and whatever. And we've got a fun episode coming up with Ben Sewald all about his relationship with Jessa. He got married as a teenager to Jessa. So what's it like being married to Jessa? What's it like being married as a teenager? That'll be a very fun episode, but I hope this is encouraging and helpful to you guys, our listeners. And I'm glad I'm married to you.
- [48:12]
Ginger
Yeah, I'm glad you married me. And I'm just gonna say this too. If you have, like, uncertainty, fear in that, just ask God for help too. Like to have peace when you know, you know. Because I think I want to just say that because it can be scary, but there also can be such joy and peace that God gives when you know it's the right one.
- [48:34]
Jeremy
Yeah. And he will give that peace. Yes. Thanks for hanging out, guys. We'll see you next week.
- [48:45]
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- [49:13]
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