#2528 - Cassie Coppersmith

Summary

The Joe Rogan Experience #2528 – Cassie Coppersmith

Date: July 21, 2026
Guest: Cassie Coppersmith (Secrets in Stone)
Main Theme: Re-examining Ancient Civilizations, Anomalous Artifacts, and Alternative Timelines

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Episode Overview

This episode of The Joe Rogan Experience features Cassie Coppersmith, known for her YouTube channel "Secrets in Stone." The discussion delves into the mysteries surrounding ancient stone artifacts, megalithic architecture, and the conventional timelines of early civilizations. The conversation challenges mainstream archaeological narratives by highlighting anomalies in sites and artifacts from China, India, Peru, Cambodia, and more.

Cassie and the hosts explore alternative theories about machining in ancient artifacts, the nature of elongated skulls found worldwide, the possible existence of pre-flood highly advanced societies, and the limitations of academic frameworks on historical truth. Notably, the episode frequently references tangible evidence, new technologies (such as LIDAR and AI-powered translations), and the spiritual/energetic dimensions of megalithic sites.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Chinese Jade Artifacts: Impossible Precision

• Artifacts Discussed: Sung tubes and Bi discs from the Liangzhu culture (~3400 BCE) (00:44–07:04)
• Anomalies:
  • Made from extremely hard nephrite jade, these items showcase perfect geometric precision, unexplainable by officially accepted ancient tools (e.g., bamboo, sand, strings, and copper).
  • Experimental attempts to replicate them result in much rougher, imprecise results.
• Cassie’s View:
  • Suggests these may be inherited (“out-of-place artifacts”) from even earlier, more advanced societies—parallels drawn to Egypt’s hard stone vases.
  • The complex shapes and drilling marks indicate unknown stoneworking technologies.
  • Cassie theorizes, “My theory is...these were not unlike the hard stone vases in Egypt. So it was something that this culture either was gifted or found...” (01:27)
• Quote: “If you had the ability to make an artifact in that kind of a shape, why would you not have also created the scratching over the top in that high...that high-quality version?” – Cassie (08:45)

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2. Alternative History & Taking Credit

• Practice of Successor Cultures:
  • Ancient rulers often inscribed their names on pre-existing structures, claiming credit for constructions they likely didn't make (e.g., Ramses II in Egypt). (09:29)
  • Similar trends witnessed in Cambodia and elsewhere, where inscriptions are used to date structures, but deeper textual analysis reveals kings often described installing statues, not building temples from scratch. (22:13–23:05)
• Academic Blind Spots:
  • Academic insistence on timeline conformity; evidence of older or anomalous findings often ignored or downplayed due to career risk and institutional hierarchy. (27:02–30:09)
• Quote: “That is crazy. That is crazy to get ego involved in that...when you see like the attacks on guys like Graham Hancock and all these people...there's a bunch of data that confounds the timeline.” – Chris (29:38)

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3. Machining Evidence in India

• Hoy Sala Temples:
  • Pillars in southern India display lathe-turned precision, with “lathe marks” visible, unexplainable via purported animal- or human-powered lathes (15:27–18:53).
  • Architecturally, temples demonstrate advanced geometric planning and perfectly uniform pillars, sometimes said to have rotated.
• Cultural Successions:
  • Cassie argues megalithic cores exist under younger, cruder brickwork in Asian temples, a pattern mirrored globally.
• Quote: “Has anyone done an analysis of the geometry in these things? ...It looks insane. That looks so beautiful.” – Chris (17:46)

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4. Anomalous Human Skulls & Giants

• Discussion:
  • Elongated skulls found in Peru, England, Malta—some with 30% greater brain volume, absent sagittal sutures, shifted foramen magnum.
  • Not just headboarding; claims that such “different humans” may have been the elite, possibly possessing advanced cognitive or even psychic abilities (36:31–39:39).
  • Theories suggest practice of headboarding was to emulate these beings.
• Quote: “Imagine...they were able to do things that regular humans couldn't?” – Cassie (37:09)
• Notable Moment: Casually browsing images of anomalous skulls, Joe and Chris react in amazement: “That is crazy. That is crazy that there was a person like that.” – Chris (48:36)

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5. Global Megalithic Patterns & Construction Mysteries

• Angkor Wat & Cambodian Pyramids:
  • LIDAR analysis reveals massive, previously hidden mound fields, spiral embankments, and reservoirs—scale often attributed to much more recent “known” cultures (57:24–62:51).
  • No credible explanation for their construction with hand tools or means.
• India’s Baahubali Statue:
  • 60 feet tall, 1000 tons of white granite; perfect symmetry and finish—attributed to crude chisel work in 980 CE due to superficial inscriptions. (76:29–79:07)
  • Cassie argues the statue was likely carved out of living rock, with machining marks analogous to Egyptian statues.
• Quote: “What was going on back then? This is the real big question. Like, what was the height of sophisticated civilization 10,000, 12,000 years ago?” – Chris (87:29)

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6. Flood Cataclysm & Lost Civilizations

• Younger Dryas Impact:
  • Catastrophic events ~12,000 years ago may have erased prior advanced societies; sites like Gobekli Tepe, Sphinx water erosion cited as evidence for pre-flood civilization (151:20–152:17).
• Recurring Myths:
  • Global stories of ancient kings ruling for thousands of years, giants, and half-mythic golden ages across Sumerian, Jain, Hindu, and Biblical traditions.
  • Cassie and the hosts consider whether stories of dragons and serpents were derived from real creatures lost to cataclysm, misdepicted in art due to cultural memory (141:01).
• Quote: “Is it coincidence that all of our ancient myths talk about the same things? Or might it have been true?” – Cassie (114:32)

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7. AI, LIDAR, and the Future of Archaeology

• New Tools:
  • AI-aided translation is exposing new perspectives on temple inscriptions.
  • LIDAR and remote sensing has the potential to rewrite history by revealing hidden sites (e.g., Cambodia, Amazon).
  • Recent claims suggest a second Sphinx buried at Giza, based on high-res scanning and AI probability models (97:36).
• Quote: “I think you could fundamentally change this discussion in the next five years. Just using AI and different kinds of technology...” – Cassie (101:34)

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8. Spiritual & Energetic Dimensions

• Temples & Energy:
  • Ancient sites feel different; visitors frequently report altered dreams, spontaneous healings, and a heightened sense of "energy" (104:06–105:39).
  • Cassie speculates ancient builders deliberately chose energetic focal points (“acupuncture points of the earth”) for their megaliths.
• Modern Disconnection:
  • Cassie shares her own spiritual journey—disconnecting from corporate life for a wilderness quest (105:39–108:13).
  • Broader discussion on the loss of ritual, tribe, and spirituality in modern society and the role ancient sites play in rekindling awe and connection.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It looks machined. They look way too precise for the tools that they say built them.”
  – Cassie Coppersmith discussing Chinese jade artifacts (00:44)

• “Why would you create the artifact like that and then just scratch over the top of it? Right. It doesn't make sense.”
  – Cassie (08:45)

• “The evidence is everywhere of this. It's just not, you know, it's written off. It's like, well, that must have been an animal powered lathe.”
  – Cassie (15:55)

• “Imagine some of the capabilities of these people with that much more brain volume. Could they speak telepathically? Could they move stones with their minds?”
  – Cassie (36:31)

• “We are at a very unique time in history where we can look across all of it, especially in the next 10 years when we're leveraging AI… it's going to fundamentally change the way that we view the history of the world.”
  – Cassie (154:05)

• On Atlantis/Pyramids/Golden Ages:
  “I think that's part of the reason that the powers that be don't want us talking about golden ages…If you can convince civilization that…life is as good as it's ever been, that's much more palatable than…we are as sick as we've ever been.” – Cassie (93:30)

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Noteworthy Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |-----------|-------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:44 – 07:04 | Mystery of Chinese jade artifacts and their machining | | 14:12 – 19:12 | Indian Hoy Sala pillars, ancient lathes, evidence of machining | | 36:31 – 41:02 | Elongated skulls, giants — cross-cultural anomalous remains | | 57:24 – 62:51 | LIDAR reveals massive ancient earthworks around Angkor Wat | | 76:29 – 87:29 | Baahubali statue, enormous Indian stonework & its dating mystery | | 105:39–108:13 | Cassie’s vision quest—disconnecting from corporate life | | 151:20–153:05 | Younger Dryas, cataclysms, stone as message for the future |

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Flow & Tone

The episode is inquisitive, often incredulous, and irreverent in classic Joe Rogan style—mixing deep dives with playful banter, pop culture references (movies like Lucy and Limitless), and awe at the magnitude of the mysteries discussed.

Cassie brings an optimistic, open-minded view on re-examining our past, contrasting the often “closed-door” mainstream academic approach. The conversation is full of wonder, speculation, and a critical look at the human need for narrative certainty.

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Final Word

This episode presents a whirlwind tour of ancient mysteries, from precise stone artifacts to the potential of undiscovered civilizations and technologies lost to time. Joe, Chris, and Cassie encourage both skepticism and radical openness—advocating for new technologies and perspectives to help “rewrite” the human story. The conversation leaves listeners not with answers, but with big questions and a renewed sense of curiosity for the marvels (and enigmas) of our distant past.

Transcript

[Jamie]

Joe Rogan Podcast.

[Joe Rogan]

Check it out.

[Jamie]

The Joe Rogan Experience.

[Chris]

Join by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day.

[Jamie]

How are you?

[Joe Rogan]

Great.

[Jamie]

How are you doing?

[Chris]

Very nice to meet you.

[Jamie]

Nice to meet you.

[Chris]

I've enjoyed your content online.

[Jamie]

Thank you.

[Chris]

I got first introduced to you by a video you did with his channel's Megalithic Marvels.

[Jamie]

Yes.

[Chris]

And it was about ancient Chinese artifacts that don't make any sense.

[Jamie]

Yes.

[Chris]

And it was so fascinating. The moment I saw it, I reached out to my guy. I was like, I gotta talk to her, because this is crazy. So please explain to people what these artifacts are and what's so bizarre about them.

[Jamie]

I first saw these artifacts in the British Museum, so they have an entire whole wall full of them. And they're made of nephrite jade, which is an extremely hard stone. And they just look. They look machined. They look way too precise for the tools that they say built them. So I started doing some research. I haven't been to the site in China. It was built by the Langzhou culture, so archaeologists say. But it's two different kinds of artifacts that are really famous. One is called a Sung tube, which is a tall tube that's circular in the middle and square on the outside and extremely precise geometry. The other one are these big round B disks that almost look like a giant flat donut that are perfectly flat on top. You know, there's the precision versions of these just like you see all over the world. And there are versions that are much cruder. So it almost seems like this civilization had this. My theory is this. These were not unlike the hard stone vases in Egypt. So it was something that this culture either was gifted or found, and it turned into a very cherished object, like a grave. Good for them. So you find these tombs in Liangzhou, China, that have literally thousands of these jade artifacts in them. And it's not unlike the hard stuff that you see in Egypt, where you find those in the graves as well.

[Chris]

So what's the timeline where these pieces are attributed to?

[Jamie]

So these are really old. I mean, the earthworks and the community around the Liangzhou culture is securely dated by archaeologists to like 3400 BC. And then just. So it's about the same actually as the graves that were in Egypt with the hard stone bases. So it's very, very old.

[Chris]

And at the time of this culture, what were their tools like? Do we know?

[Jamie]

Well, the archaeologists say that it was made with strings. So they would take strings with sand or some sort of an abrasive and they would cut the jade that way, and then they would use copper tools, stone hammers, those kinds of things to shape it.

[Chris]

So the explanation, with a giant smile

[Jamie]

on your face, the explanation doesn't make a lot of sense. And even, you know, the hole down the middle of the B disk is a perfect. I mean, you can see the drill marks on the inside of the B disk.

[Chris]

Do we have some images of these things?

[Jamie]

Yes. Take a look at them, Jamie. I have a china folder because the images on.

[Chris]

And by the way, that channel, Megalithic Marvels. Derek's channel. Excellent. Really fun.

[Jamie]

So great, great stuff. Yeah. Derek is the one that got me into all this.

[Chris]

Shout out to Derek.

[Jamie]

Shout out to Derek.

[Chris]

So this is. How do you say it? How do you pronounce that?

[Jamie]

B disc.

[Chris]

B disc. Bi. Disc. And how big is this?

[Jamie]

So that thing's about nine inches across, perfectly circular, perfectly flat surface on the top.

[Chris]

Like, measured to what, tolerance?

[Jamie]

You know, I don't know the answer to that, and I don't know that there have been a lot of deep scientific studies on the precision of these. Right. The archaeologists assume that this culture made them with bamboo and strings. Okay, so, yeah, that picture, Jamie, you can see the inside of the actual artifact in the bottom. Right. That's drilled.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

Right. And the one on the left is an experiment these archaeologists ran with a bamboo core down the middle of the jade. And you can just. You can see the difference between the two.

[Chris]

How far did they get down with the bamboo experiment?

[Jamie]

All the way through.

[Chris]

They got all the way through. How long did that take?

[Jamie]

I don't know the answer to that. There was an archaeologist that did an experiment in the 1930s, and they used these strings with the abrasives to cut off a piece of jade that was the size of a basketball. And it took them a week to cut the string all the way through that piece of jade.

[Chris]

So it was a long process. So the difference in the people that are listening. So there's the bamboo experiment where they drilled into something with a bamboo and cord and some. What else did they use, like sand or something?

[Jamie]

Yes. Abrasives of some sort?

[Chris]

Yeah. And so the difference is, if you look at the lines as it's drilling down, they're thick and they don't look the same. If you look at the ones in the actual artifact, they're extremely tight, they're way smaller, and they're tighter to each other. And it doesn't make sense. Like, you look at that, you're like, that looks like a machine.

[Jamie]

It does and in this specific instance, it looks to me like the drill came from both directions. Like they flipped it over and drilled from the top and then flipped it over again and drilled from the bottom and that's where it met in the middle.

[Joe Rogan]

Wow.

[Chris]

So when what is, like, what's out of all these different artifacts, what's the most puzzling one to you?

[Jamie]

The Sung tube, which is the one

[Chris]

on the left hand side there.

[Jamie]

Yep. So that, you know, that is a, it's larger on top, smaller on the bottom, perfectly 90 degree corners. It's got a round tube in the middle. But the artifact in general is square. So it's just a very complex shape to create with that level of precision. And nephrite jade is a very, a very hard stone. So it would have taken, you know, this is a. People in my space talk about the Mohs scale of hardness just as a way of saying diamonds are a 10, you know, different, different stone levels. The, the hard stone discs like diorite, that would be a 6 or 7. This is the same. It's, it's that hard.

[Chris]

Wow. And so is the idea. Well, I'm just assuming the idea is that there was a more sophisticated culture that probably existed predating that and these are leftover artifacts.

[Jamie]

It is only my opinion that that's the case. I haven't seen a lot of people talk about these artifacts at all. Jamie, if you go back to the picture you had just flashed on the screen, the reason I've developed this theory. So this is an image on the side of the largest Sung tube. It's called the King of Jade sung. It's a 15 pound artifact that was found and you can see the raised stone. So it's the high relief carvings that were later etched over. That etching has become very famous. If you look at photos of the museum in Liangzhou, this image is everywhere. And I think that this was an image that was used by the Liangzhou tribe as like the, the image of the king basically. And so I, but I do believe that it was scratched over the top of an original, very interesting high relief carving that you see in a lot of other artifacts. So I think that he basically found this. It looks, it's something that they maybe could not recreate. And then they kind of stamped their, their kingly symbol over the top of it.

[Chris]

So this is, it's common in Egypt as well, particularly this theory among alternative historians, because you look at the complexity of some of the sarcophaguses and some of the different things that, and then you See the writing on the outside, which looks like cruder. The writing is not as precise. The cutting is not as precise. There's a lot of, like, chips to it. It doesn't look like they use the same materials or the same utensils or tools.

[Jamie]

Yeah. And, you know, the question is, if you had the ability. There's the king of Jade Sung. So if you had the ability to make an artifact in that kind of a shape, why would you not have also created the scratching over the top in that high. That high quality version? So why would you create the artifact like that and then just scratch over the top of it? Right. It doesn't make sense.

[Chris]

That's always been the case that history shows that people who are controlling a region will take credit for everything. They'll take credit for all the ancient stuff, too. They put their name on it. They own everything.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

You know, and that's famous with pharaohs. They did it with everything. And this is documented. We know that they wrote their name on things that they didn't create.

[Jamie]

Yeah. Ramses II was King Selfie. You know, he. He put his cartouche on everything.

[Chris]

Yeah. Which is. I mean, it sounds like what a dictator does. It sounds like what a pharaoh would do.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

You know, it doesn't mean that they made it. And for us to just assume that they did, knowing that people in great power behave that way is kind of. Kind of crazy. That's our map of history. So how did you get down this road where you started looking at these objects and looking at the. The conventional historical timeline and saying something's wrong here?

[Jamie]

Specific to the Chinese artifacts.

[Chris]

Yeah. Or were you already on that path when you found the Chinese artifacts?

[Jamie]

I've been on this path for a while. And, you know, the name of my channel is Secrets in Stone. And the reason I named it that is because I believe that the stones speak to you. They will show you exactly what the story is. Right. So with these artifacts, just like the hard stone vases, it just is out of place. You know, it doesn't make any sense. And especially in the British Museum, when you look at these with your own eyes and then you read the story of how they believe that they were made, you know, it just doesn't. It doesn't add up. And so all you have to do, you know, in any of these places is dig one or two levels down and you start to start to see a lot of inconsistencies.

[Chris]

One or two levels. So. Meaning that the older stuff is the more complex.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Or

[Jamie]

with the way that the archaeologists have interpreted a lot of these sites, there's a whole lot of assumptions that are made. You know, there's carbon dating that only goes partway down. You know, they'll dig partway down, they'll date it, it matches their story, and they write the report. They'll take inscriptions, you know, especially in Cambodia, places like that, where a king has written an inscription and they'll say, yep, well, that king wrote on this. So this must have been made at this time. And there's really no further investigation. So it's become a theme with my work, where I'll go somewhere specifically with the megalithic architecture. You can see exactly where the old architecture was built. Oftentimes it's the lowest level, and then you can see where other cultures have come later and built on top of it. And it just looks. It looks like a. Just a copy of what's underneath. It's like they were really trying to make what they saw, but they just couldn't. And so once you've kind of trained your eye for that, you go anywhere in the world and you see it.

[Chris]

How did you start looking at this stuff?

[Jamie]

I went to. Well, I went to Egypt four years ago and watched Ben Van Kirkwyk's videos. You know Ben?

[Chris]

Sure, he's awesome.

[Jamie]

So I watched a couple of his videos on the way to Egypt. That was my first kind of introduction to this. And then it just became a bit of a obsession for me. I like to go to the sites around the world that other people don't really go to. So, you know, I think Egypt and Peru and Turkey, that's. It's all in good hands, right? Ben's watching over Egypt. We've got Brian Forrester down in Peru doing amazing work. The sites I go to are the sites that nobody else really visits. So I just got back from India a couple weeks ago. I spent a lot of time in Cambodia. I went to Thailand. And these are the sites that I think if you're trying to make a case, or at least a strong enough case that people will consider, right, that there may be a different history than what we're being told, I think you have to have more than three examples. So if you can start to. To do a lot of research on these sites all around the world, you can have thousands of examples of nubs, for example, or megalithic architecture that looks very similar, these walls that look very similar all over the world. And it just. In my mind, it makes a much stronger case for it than just continuing to look at the same sites over and over again.

[Chris]

It seems to me so much more likely that the timeline is incorrect, then the historians are right and everyone else is just a conspiracy theorist weirdo. The more you look at it, the more. The more questions I have. Like that Kailasa temple in India. Yeah, we've gone over that a few times. But Jamie pointed out something that they brought in about. Was it like an army to try to destroy it, and they barely put a dent in the damn thing.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

And they stayed for a long time. They tried to smash it up and they couldn't do shit to it.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

And then you go, okay, well how did they make this? What did they. And I saw a really wild YouTube video the other day where this guy was proposing that they used lasers and that it was all laser carved and that they had some sort of like super sophisticated laser setup back then. That's why you're not finding all the stone.

[Jamie]

Well, you know what, wait a minute. Look, I think that that's absolutely possible.

[Chris]

You know, it sounds possible, but also so insane that we're so wrong about the linear timeline of human history that they had lasers in India, like how many thousands of years ago that they were using to carve an entire massive perfect temple out of rock.

[Jamie]

You know, I was just down at the Hoy Sala temples, which are in southern India, and they have these lathes. La lathe turned pillars. The pillars are feet across, they're huge. And you walk up to them and you look at them closely and you can see the lathe marks on them. And archaeologists concede that they're lathe turned, but they don't concede that it's machined. So they basically say, well, maybe they were turned on a lathe, we'll give you that. But that was probably human powered or animal powered. Yes.

[Chris]

Oh, God.

[Jamie]

These are the statue or the lathe turned pillars in southern India. I was just looking at these with my own eyes a couple weeks ago. It's completely unexplainable. And to think of the size of the machine that would be required. Say you turn that pillar sideways, you connect it to a machine on each side and you start lathing. Jamie, I have a folder in my India pictures that.

[Chris]

God, that's so pretty.

[Jamie]

That has lots of evidence. So what you can see at sites like Hampi in India is you can see the evidence of lathing. So it almost looks like the setup that they would have used to carve these kinds of pillars. And it's just sitting in kind of far flung corners of these sites, nobody addresses what they are. And so the evidence is everywhere of this. It's just not, you know, it's written off. It's like, well, that must have been an animal powered lathe. So I do think we have strong evidence for machining in ancient history. And in my mind, it doesn't have to be machines. There could have been other ways that they were doing this that we don't even recognize.

[Chris]

So what is this that we're looking at?

[Jamie]

This is at the museum in Hampi in southern India. And that to me looks like the left. So it looks like where a pillar might have been placed and the machine was spinning, you know, some sort of a lathing machine. So I, I think it's like the, you know, the other side of these pillars, basically.

[Chris]

Like the, the end plates.

[Jamie]

Yeah, exactly.

[Chris]

Right. Okay. And so these pillars, how large are they? Can you, Jamie, can you go to that image in the lower right hand corner, please? That one right there. I can't get over how pretty that is.

[Jamie]

They're so incredible in real life too.

[Chris]

How tall are they?

[Jamie]

Way tall. I mean, my head would probably go halfway up that pillar.

[Chris]

They're twice as tall as me, so immensely heavy. And what kind of stone is it carved out of?

[Jamie]

This is a chloritic schist, so it's called soapstone.

[Chris]

It's so pretty.

[Jamie]

But there are lathed turn pillars that are also granite in southern India. It's a soapstone. So when it's quarried, it's a little bit softer and then it hardens once it's out of the quarry.

[Chris]

Has anyone done an analysis of the geometry in these things? Like how precise it is and how, like, I'm looking at it. If you go to that. The one next to it, please. That one? Yeah, that one. When I'm looking at the precision of that and how many different pieces there are, I would love to know how uniform those are, because it looks insane. That looks so beautiful. We're looking at. How do you say that word? Kopeshoir? Kurpishwar? Mahadev. Is that how you say it? Mahadev? God. That's pretty.

[Jamie]

It's incredible. And you know, these sites have crazy energy too. You walk into them and you can tell that they were, they were made with a lot of love. These, these pillars, you know, you can't help but touch them.

[Chris]

You're allowed to touch them?

[Jamie]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Chris]

Look at that. Like, I would love to know what the precision of that is. Yeah, really? Imagine if it's insanely precise and Then you have to explain that too. Not just stone chisels and tools and

[Jamie]

stuff, but when you can see in the pillars, you can see where the lathe started at the bottom and you can see where it stopped at the top. It's just, it's just running and you know, a lot of people are like, well, turn it sideways. Is that some sort of a sound wave, right? Is it mimicking? Is it telling us something?

[Chris]

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[Jamie]

I think so.

[Chris]

Can I see that again, Jamie?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, I was just trying to find

[Chris]

out your question of how precise they are. Oh, here it goes. The pillars in how do you say it? Swarga Mandap of Kopeshwar temple are lathe turned with extremely uniform circular and poly poly polygonal profiles showing high geometric precision and tight alignment. Despite being carved from stone without mortar joints.

[Jamie]

It says it resembles machine turned work.

[Chris]

Resembles. Yeah, that's cute. Isn't it more likely that it was machine turned? If it's exactly. Pillars are laid out with consistent spacing in the circular hall so that the open oculus in the ceiling remains perfectly centered, suggesting careful radial planning and load distribution. The temple uses interlocking stone and grass gravity rather than mortar. So the precise fit of the pillars into bases and beams is critical to stability and is cited as an example of advanced medieval Indian stone engineering.

[Jamie]

One thing that's interesting when you go to these temples is you can see where they have moved these pillars into the temples. So the core of most of these temples, in my opinion is the original megalithic part of these temples, the oldest stuff. But you can see where these pillars have been moved into new temples. And so you'll see these crazy precise dark stones.

[Joe Rogan]

Says this is a rotating pillar.

[Jamie]

What I think it used to rotate. It does not anymore. I actually saw that pillar.

[Chris]

When did it stop?

[Jamie]

I don't know. And maybe that's just a myth. I Have no idea. But you can see where they moved these pillars from original temples. Or maybe, who knows, maybe they found a workshop somewhere with these and they put them in the center of the newer temples. So it's not precise at all. Very crude stonework above and below them. And then they have this perfect lathe pillar right in the middle.

[Chris]

So what is the timeline that they attribute to the construction of these?

[Jamie]

Oh, you know, 1200-1500 AD.

[Chris]

And why did they say that?

[Jamie]

Because the kings that ruled during that time period wrote inscriptions on the pillars, in a lot of instances on the sides of the temples, things like that. Yeah, it's all inscriptional evidence.

[Chris]

I would need more evidence, you know.

[Jamie]

Right. What's really interesting, I've done a lot of.

[Chris]

It's graffiti. Yeah.

[Jamie]

I've done a lot of research in Cambodia and they date all of their temples based on inscriptions. And when you actually run these inscriptions through AI and you translate them, they've all been translated from Sanskrit to French. I then translated it from French to English. And when you read what the kings actually wrote, very seldom do they say, I king so and so built this. What they say is, I installed a lingam, I brought a, you know, I brought a statue to this temple. And so the archaeologists make a fairly big jump between what the kings actually wrote and saying, well, this king must have built this. So in a lot of instances they're actually putting words into their mouths.

[Joe Rogan]

Wow.

[Chris]

So what is your belief in terms of the timeline of the construction of these things?

[Jamie]

I mean, in the oldest instances, I personally believe that it's pre flood, so more than 12,000 years ago. I think there are some that are probably older, very. You know, Peru is. I just got back from Peru a couple of months ago. That's fully unexplainable. You've talked about Peru on your show many times. Egypt is incredibly ancient. I actually believe that India is one of the most ancient places on earth. And were they, were they different civilizations building there? What they built suggests that it probably was. Were they in contact with each other? I believe they were. There's enough similarities around the world that it feels like there was a communication network between them. But when you look at the actual building styles between. Take those three examples, India, Egypt and Peru, they're completely different. Right. Egypt is very. Just blocks, very few decorations, especially in places like the Osirion. It's just. It almost looks. It's like clinical, you know. But then you're in Peru and it's playful. There are these big pillowy blocks and then you go to India and there's carvings all over everything. Right. And so I do believe that there are certain places in this world that are substantially older. And I believe that for thousands of years, civilizations have been. They're attracted to these places and they build on top of them and they settle there. And so you just see generation after generation after generation of building on top of them.

[Chris]

Well, it makes sense when you think about Kailasa, because look how perfect it is now. And this is thousands of years after they attribute it to being built, or at least a thousand years.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Chris]

And it looks like there's been zero erosion.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Now add a few thousand years to that, it's going to look exactly the same.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

And if you're just generation after generation, like, not knowing who built it, and you get a version of. Of, you know, this king said he did it or this guy said he did. Like, how? Add a few thousand years and it's fucking guesswork, 100%. And to have archaeologists shift through dirt and find an inscription somewhere and go, oh, we nailed it, like, God, that's such a disservice to what the complexity of the mystery of what we're looking at is.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Like, just the Kailasa one is. I am obsessed with that place. I've. I've watched, like, four or five documentaries on it and see. And we went over it on the podcast the other day with the CEO of Perplexity. It's like. It's fucking bananas.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

It's so crazy how precise and one mistake and you're fucked. But yet it's all geometrically aligned. They have no idea what they did with all the stone.

[Jamie]

That's the big question. Right.

[Chris]

That seems so crazy.

[Jamie]

They removed an entire cliffside mountain, and, you know, it was. They carved it from the top down.

[Chris]

Yeah. And put it. Where would you do it at all?

[Jamie]

Good question.

[Chris]

That's so much rock. That's not a little bit of rock. You would think there'd be some laying around.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Even after thousands of years, you'd have, like, a pile somewhere. Like, fuck it. Anybody wants some free stone, it's over there. No one's going to take all the stone. You have fucking millions and millions of tons of stone. Like, that's crazy.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

What you do with it.

[Jamie]

You know what? I wonder? I wonder. I do feel for archeologists, Right. I mean, they go to a site and they're like, gosh, maybe this feels a little older. But the only evidence I have are potsherds that I can date I can dig down and I can find cultural layers of cultures that, in my opinion, lived there afterwards. They're dating that, and they see inscriptions, and that's the evidence that they have to make their case. But I do wonder how many of them are looking at these sites and saying, yeah, this actually doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

[Chris]

A lot of the young ones, I would think. So I've talked to them. I've talked to them. I think it's the hierarchal. What's the word? Hierarchy, the structure of academics. And in terms of these guys that are teaching university courses and giving out PhDs and writing books, and they have a vast body of work that's all about the timeline, all about, you know, what they know. And they are the gatekeepers of information. And there's a lot of ego involved with academics. I'm sure you know that. And they get really shitty with each other. And they're vicious. They're vicious when they attack each other, even if they're wrong. Like, the whole Clovis first thing was the best example that the gentleman who proposed this theory that there were people here older than the Clovis people was destroyed by his own peers. And it took years before it was proven that he was correct. And not only was he correct, but he was correct by, like, over 10,000 years. Like, now they're pushing it past 22,000 years ago because of the footprints they found in White Sands, New Mexico.

[Jamie]

Right? The peopling of the Americas.

[Chris]

Yes, absolutely. So humans have been here a long, long, long time. And this is just indicative of this pattern that happens whenever anybody comes up with any sort of an alternative theory that doesn't come from the gated halls of academia. They're just dismissed. But academics have only been around for a few hundred years. Like, we have to stop and think about how crazy it is that we've put the power in these people that we know are not always accurate, nor are they compromised. And they have ego problems. And they have this structure of the. The people at the top that are giving out grants and giving out funding and giving PhDs and reading people's dissertations. It's like. It's very social and it's very complex. And to deviate from the narrative is devastating for your career. Like, if they can destroy the guy who proposed that Clovis first was incorrect. That guy was an academic. He was established. Imagine if you're a fucking PhD student and you're like, I think you guys are wrong. Well, you're fucked forever.

[Jamie]

You know, I used to work in corporate America and there were a lot of things that I thought that I absolutely never said. Right. So if you think about these young archaeologists, even if they see something and they think, gosh, I wish that I could dive into that and really explore how old this is, they're gonna get shut down immediately and their self preservation mechanisms are gonna kick in because they've got a paycheck. You know, you have to sympathize with the situation that they're in.

[Chris]

Oh, I do. I completely do. Look, we've all worked for shitty bosses. It's a terrible position to be in. And especially if your shitty boss is in charge of the distribution of information about the history of the human race. That is crazy. That is crazy to get ego involved in that. I know, because when you see like the attacks on guys like Graham Hancock and all these people that propose that this data that we should look at, that's just that, like there's, there's a bunch of data that confounds the timeline. Like it, it fucks it completely up.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

When Gobekli Tepe came along and then everybody was like, okay, we're in a, we have a problem. We have an 11,000 plus year old structure. For sure. It was purposely buried 11,000 plus years ago. So how old is it? It's at least 11,000 years old. That doesn't make any sense because timeline of civilization is supposed to be 6,000 years ago. So now we have immense stone structures with 3D carvings that are in concentric circles that's 5,000 years older than that. Okay, these are hunter and gatherers. They were just assholes that in their spare time from killing antelopes, they decided they were going to build immense structures on the top of a hill.

[Jamie]

Well, and don't you find it interesting that the dating of Gobekli Tepe has not opened the door to redating other sites around the world? So when you talk about the stuff in Egypt, nobody's really open to saying Maybe this is 10,000 years old. Should we look again?

[Chris]

Right.

[Jamie]

You know, that story has been written. There's been a period on it, and it's been put to bed.

[Chris]

Not only that, there's actual geological evidence. And this is where Robert Schoch came into play. You know, I have had him on the podcast before and I remember watching that documentary on the mysteries of the Sphinx. And he proposed that there's water erosion on the outside of the temple of the Sphinx. And he, he's taken photos of that erosion and brought it to other geologists and said, what do you think this is? And they said, well, that's water erosion. And then he shows them where it came from. They're like, I don't want to have nothing to do with this.

[Jamie]

Yeah, just kidding.

[Chris]

It's wind crazy, which is crazy. Imagine the timeline of human history is so controversial that you're worried that it would ruin your career if you spoke accurately about your field of expertise, which is erosion and geology due to rainfall. Thousands of years of rainfall. Well, thousands of years of rainfall means at the very least, The Sphinx is 9,000 years old. Yeah, at the very least. But that's probably way older than that because you have to have thousands of years of rainfall from the time that it was constructed. Constructed to make these kind of deep fissures into this stone.

[Jamie]

And it was buried for much of its recent history, which means there was not erosion taking place the entire time it was buried.

[Chris]

Yeah, the whole thing's nuts. And the wind and sand erosion. That's our argument against that.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Chris]

Because it was covered in sand.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

And, you know, if there was rain erosion like they're proposing, it had to have been when there was rainfall, significant rainfall in the Nile Valley. And that's way back 9,000 years ago.

[Jamie]

A long time ago. Yep. And, you know, I guess it just. It breaks my heart a little bit that this conversation gets shut down. Because if you think about. Think about 23andMe, right. The. The number of people that have subscriptions to websites like that because they are extremely interested in where they came from, and it opens up their world. When they can see four generations back, it gives them, you know, people that. That belong to these subscription services will say, I finally have a sense of belonging. I kind of feel like I know where I came from. We as a humanity, imagine if we actually knew where we came from. I think we would feel a lot less lost.

[Chris]

I don't think it's sad. I think it's funny. I think it's just another example of just how funny people are, how we're so weird, we're so full of shit, and we're just so filled with this desire to be correct and to enforce our narrative that we do it even with facts that are really significantly important for the entire world. And I think it's funny because it doesn't work, because it's only opened the door to people like you and people like Derek and people like Graham Hancock and Ben Van Kirkwyk and Jimmy Corsetti and all these people that Luke Caverns, they Just spend enormous amounts of time making this incredible content.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Like all the stuff that Luke has done in the Americas, in South America, like, good Lord, there's so many mysteries. Like, explain away Saxe Juaman. Explain away those stones. Help me out, help me out. How people with no steel and no heavy machinery move these things into position, move these 20 foot tall, immense stones that are cut like jigsaw puzzles. It looks like they were melted into place.

[Jamie]

Yeah, it looks like a melted marshmallow stacked on top of a melted marshmallow.

[Chris]

It's literally bananas. It makes no sense. And then you have the weirdness of these elongated heads that they find down there. These skulls that are absolutely real skulls, these are not hoaxes. They have a 30, 20 to 30% larger brain capacity in the skull.

[Jamie]

I have personally seen elongated skulls in four different countries.

[Chris]

And it's not the same as skulls that were manipulated to be flattened. That's what's different. So what people think about this, there's a very well known practice where they would take boards and put them on children's heads to elongate their heads. The question is, why were they doing that and were they trying to emulate something that existed, another type of person that was here? Well, it seems like it. And it seems like these skulls that they find particularly in Peru, the bones are larger, it's a larger face and they have a larger brain capacity. And they don't have that sagittal ridge, sagittal suture that's down the middle. So they're literally a different kind of skull. It's clearly human or some form of human, but it has more brain volume and it's built different than us. And everybody's like, I don't see anything.

[Jamie]

Yep.

[Chris]

They're not like, hey, maybe there was a completely different species of human that existed along with just like Denisovans, just like Neanderthals, just like all these new ones that they keep finding fairly recently. Like the one they found in China, the Big Headed man. What was it? What was that one called again? Juliens Homo juliennes. This is like really recent. Like a few years ago they found this like, okay, we don't have the picture, guys. We just don't. We don't have the full. We don't have all the data. And when you have these fucking big skulls and you're not even bringing that up, it makes me think like, are you afraid to look at this? Because then you have to admit that you really didn't know this. And you were walking around saying you're an expert in the human timeline.

[Jamie]

Imagine some of the capabilities of these people with that much more brain volume. Could they speak telepathically? Could they move stones with their minds with sound? We don't know what they were able to do. If you just unlock an additional 10% of your brain capacity, Joe Rogan's brain capacity. Think of all of the connections you would make. Think about all of the things you could do that you can't do now. And now it expands your brain volume by 30%. Exactly.

[Chris]

Like the movie, the Bradley Cooper movie, Remember?

[Jamie]

Yes.

[Chris]

Yeah. And he kept the same size head.

[Jamie]

Or the movie Lucy with Scarlett Johansson.

[Chris]

That's the best one.

[Jamie]

Just unlocking her full brain and suddenly she was moving things with her mind. Right. So were these people able to do things that regular humans couldn't? And that's why they were emulated throughout history with cradle headboarding. They were the elite. They were maybe building some of these structures, who knows? And if you are. If you are just an average Joe in that community, you want to look like them. Right? You. All of us do it.

[Chris]

Especially the elites of the time, especially the humans that were the kings and the pharaohs and all these different people, they wanted to have those heads.

[Jamie]

Yep. There were some really interesting.

[Chris]

It sounds like we're crazy people.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Chris]

If I just tuned into this, it'd be like, oh, great. Another one of those retarded Joe Rogan shows where he's talking to crazy people. But then you see Jamie pull up some of the images of those skulls. I know we've shown them a million times.

[Jamie]

Jamie, I have a folder with skulls. I can show you some really interesting ones from England that are on small bodies, so they almost look like fairies. And they have these giant skulls on these very small bodies. And it does make you think that probably had something to do with the mythology of fairies in. In England. This was at Avebury, which is one of the big stone circles. When you walk into the museum there, there are these amazing, anomalous elongated skulls on these very tiny little bodies.

[Chris]

Whoa.

[Jamie]

The other interesting thing about elongated skulls, are they children? I don't think so. No. There's a woman named Maria Whitley who writes all about these skulls that she found that have been found all over England. That's Egypt. Yeah. There it is. Yeah. So this is England. This is one of the skulls. But this skull is very small, but if you look at the shape of it, you know, their ears are in a different spot. They have huge eye sockets. I have another photo where it's there's one still attached to a small body.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh,

[Chris]

look at the size of that head.

[Jamie]

Isn't that interesting?

[Chris]

That's crazy.

[Jamie]

Now, this one may have been a child. I don't remember specifically which of these.

[Chris]

Even if it was a kid, that kid's going to be a football player.

[Jamie]

He already has a helmet.

[Chris]

Kid is a giant head. But it doesn't look right. It doesn't look right. I have babies. They don't. They don't have heads that big. That's crazy. Even when a baby's got a big head, when they're little and they could barely hold their head up.

[Jamie]

Yep. It doesn't look like little bobbleheads.

[Chris]

That's crazy.

[Jamie]

Another really interesting.

[Chris]

I'm sorry, but look how far it goes behind the spine.

[Jamie]

And look how flat it is at the bottom in the back.

[Chris]

Yes.

[Jamie]

I mean, imagine holding that head up.

[Chris]

Well, that's the other weird thing about these elongated skulls. The part of the skull where it connects to the spine is in a different place.

[Jamie]

Yes. Which makes sense. Otherwise, you know, you.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

Or I guess you'd probably. Your head would fall backwards.

[Chris]

Like, look at these. Look at these. That don't have that sagittal suture. That one that's closest to us. That is crazy.

[Jamie]

Yeah. So that one's in Peru. I saw that one a couple months ago. It looks completely different than the skull right behind it.

[Chris]

Right. It's like a different kind of person.

[Jamie]

Yes. Interestingly, in a lot of these.

[Chris]

So they have one on the side, and they don't have the one down the middle.

[Jamie]

Yeah. There's another one that's labeled Malta, and you can see the view of it from the top, and you can see how it looks completely different than any of the other. So here's an interesting thing that I'm not sure you've talked much about, Joe.

[Chris]

Brain surgery.

[Jamie]

The holes in the back of these skulls. It's trepanation.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

So it was a surgery that they. That they see evidence of in lots and lots of ancient skulls. And the question becomes. So if you don't have a sagittal suture and your brain. You know, we have the. Our brain will fuse right. As we grow.

[Chris]

Sorry. But look at that. What it looks like. It looks like they use drills.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Doesn't it? Like, they just drill a circle around that dude's head.

[Jamie]

In a lot of instances, these people survived these surgeries. The question becomes, why were they doing it?

[Chris]

Whoa. Look at that top one. Scoop out some brain, bro. That's crazy. Maybe they were trying to relieve pressure.

[Jamie]

Well, if your brain doesn't have all of the sutures that ours does and your brain is fusing, there are some theories that suggest that these people were losing their connection with consciousness. So because their brains were so big, you know, a lot of telepathy and things like that. So if you cut a hole in a fused skull, you still have access. Right. It allows you, I guess, more space in your skull to access what you use to access.

[Chris]

So it's like relieving pressure in some way. This is the idea why they're doing this. Trepanation, maybe.

[Jamie]

You know, I think it's.

[Chris]

We had a woman on who did trepanation to herself.

[Jamie]

Oh, my gosh. I've read about her.

[Chris]

Yeah. Is she still alive?

[Jamie]

But she did it.

[Joe Rogan]

They were doing lobotomies until pretty recently. I know, right? Like what this is.

[Chris]

Yeah, right when we knew better. Is she still alive, Jamie? I think she might have passed recently.

[Jamie]

And her motivation for that, was it not for consciousness?

[Chris]

Yes. Yeah, she was out there.

[Jamie]

But isn't it interesting?

[Chris]

Lovely lady. Lovely lady, but whoo. She was out there.

[Jamie]

Yeah, she.

[Chris]

That lady. Been on some trips. She. She had been to other dimensions many, many, many, many times.

[Joe Rogan]

She passed away about a year ago.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

So sweet lady, too. She was so kind.

[Jamie]

It begs the question, what was the motivation for doing that in these ancient.

[Chris]

She described it in very glowing terms. The experience of trepanation. When she did, she did it to herself. So there's a photo of her. Isn't that like. Is there a video of her doing it? I know there's photos of the actual procedure for drilling a hole in her head. Like, yo.

[Jamie]

It must be quite a sense of relief, though.

[Chris]

I don't.

[Jamie]

Your brains no longer locked in your skull.

[Chris]

I mean, is that really what it is? I don't want to find out, but, I mean, I know people that have had to have brain surgery because they had brain bleeding. Yeah, there it is.

[Jamie]

Oh, my gosh.

[Chris]

They just drilled a hole. Looks like they use a stick. What the hell?

[Joe Rogan]

Think she did it?

[Chris]

What is she using?

[Jamie]

Is she doing it to herself?

[Chris]

Yes.

[Jamie]

No.

[Chris]

It's the only way. Do you really want to achieve one with chakras or some shit?

[Jamie]

You're probably not going to get a doctor to sign up for that.

[Chris]

Jamie, can you find. There's some images of those elongated skulls. There's a few really spectacular ones that we pulled up the other day. And one of them is like the. The sagittal suture is completely missing and it's it's so big, and you're looking at it like, okay, this is a real skull in a museum. Like, help me out, help me out, anatomy experts. Why does it. Why does it not have the features of a normal human skull? And why is it so big? Like, this Seems completely insane.

[Joe Rogan]

The AI told me why, but I don't know.

[Chris]

Yeah, shut up, AI. That's a. That's a bunch of bullshit. Archaeologists got an AI and wrote.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, I just.

[Chris]

I thought bad articles when I saw

[Joe Rogan]

that one with the little kid or the small thing with the big back of the dome. Aren't there? Or could that be explained by just, like, a random anomaly?

[Chris]

Yeah, for sure. Like, yeah, it depends on how many there are. But go. Go to the images of those. Those skulls so we could see the crazy one.

[Joe Rogan]

I don't know why Google just changed and there's no longer.

[Chris]

They don't like you anymore.

[Joe Rogan]

No, like, the whole website.

[Chris]

They hate you.

[Joe Rogan]

I noticed it yesterday. You can't.

[Chris]

Oh, yeah, that is weird.

[Jamie]

Sabotage.

[Chris]

Oh, because they're trying to get you to use AI.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, it's all gone.

[Chris]

Oh, that's so gross. Just write images. Yeah, see, now. Now they'll show you. Okay, so it's the one on the far left upper corner. It's right below it. Sorry. There you go. That's it. That's the one.

[Jamie]

Look at the eyes.

[Chris]

Yeah, the whole thing is nuts. That the fact that that is a real skull should freak everyone out, that no one is. That this isn't the front page of the New York Times. That this isn't something that everyone's investigating. Like, this is not a physical anomaly. This is a completely different skull. That's not a regular human skull at all. The capacity is so much larger. You cannot explain that by headboarding. You cannot explain. The size of the eye sockets is crazy. You imagine looking into something. Who's that one lady that has crazy big eyes? She's an actress. Do you know what I'm talking about, Jamie? She's really pretty. She's got big, giant eyes.

[Joe Rogan]

Pop out of their head.

[Chris]

All right, I've seen that too. But that's. But they're not that big. The point is, like, those eyes would be enormous. Like, if that person was in front of you and they had skin on with those eye sockets and that head, you'd be like, yo, you know, I want you to meet my friend Mike. They'd be like, what the. That is not what it looks like. That. That drawing. That drawing is way too normal. That head's Way bigger than that, too, by the way.

[Jamie]

And the eyes are nothing.

[Chris]

Nothing like it. They're not even in the same place. Like, those eyes are in a different place. Those eyes. Those eyes are in a nutty place.

[Jamie]

I mean, that. That image on the right, The. The woman. That could be what they looked like if they were cradle headboarders.

[Joe Rogan]

Yes.

[Chris]

And her face looks flattened. Do. Like the whole thing looks. Which is such a gross thing that they did to try to emulate these people.

[Jamie]

Imagine tying a baby up on a board and telling it to stay. Look at that one.

[Chris]

Look at that one to the left, Jamie. Left. Right below that. Yeah, that one. Look at that one.

[Jamie]

What the hell is that with the trepanation?

[Chris]

Yeah, but help me out. Tell me that's a person. Help me out. That is not just an elongated skull. That's crazy. That's not.

[Jamie]

If that's a real photo.

[Joe Rogan]

I know that. Well. Almost. Potential plaster, even.

[Jamie]

I don't think I've seen that one before.

[Joe Rogan]

Make this stuff.

[Chris]

That is true. That is true, people.

[Jamie]

Rocky Mountain Sasquatch Organization.

[Chris]

Well, that's a reputable source.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, I don't.

[Chris]

They are the best Sasquatch Organization.

[Joe Rogan]

I'll try not to judge all of those. I'm just clicking the photo.

[Chris]

But they have all the real information. There's a lot of misinformation information in the Sasquatch community.

[Jamie]

Oh, yes.

[Joe Rogan]

But that is the only place that shows up.

[Chris]

There's got to be other ones. Well, that. That one in the middle and the top on the left. Yeah, right there. Click on that. Look at those three.

[Jamie]

Like that almost.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, it's still the same one. Those all the same one or these from different angles. Yeah.

[Chris]

Well, the one in the middle looks different than the one on the left. Definitely.

[Jamie]

Look at the recreation below, though. At least his eyes are big.

[Chris]

He looked like. Okay, that's a good one. That's a good. That's a good representation. What?

[Joe Rogan]

Those people.

[Chris]

Those people. Tell me that dude can't read your mind. Dude in the left, he comes up to you with those beads on, like,

[Jamie]

I'll do whatever you say.

[Chris]

You're like, okay, I guess we're communicating with the mothership.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Like, look at the size of his head. Please go back to that image again. Yeah, that's. Is that real?

[Jamie]

Yeah. And most of the hair on these elongated skulls is red.

[Chris]

Oh, that's so wild. Yeah, that's so crazy. Go back to that last image, please, where you see the dude. Like that guy. Imagine running into that guy at a Mayan temple, you'd be like, oh, Christ, they're real.

[Jamie]

100.

[Chris]

Like, that's a different kind of person. Like that seems. The eyes are massive. That seems like a totally different kind of person.

[Jamie]

Yes. You know, has very different abilities than the average human.

[Chris]

Yes. I mean, if the brain is what differentiates us from all the other intelligent animals on this planet. And a human, it looks just like a human, but different. Has a brain that much bigger than ours. What is that? That's a real thing, folks. This is these. We're not making this up. These fucking skulls are real. That's crazy.

[Jamie]

Yep.

[Chris]

That is crazy that there was a person like that.

[Jamie]

The only museum I've been to in the world that has any sign that it may have been alien is Malta. When you walk into the museum in Malta, it actually has a poster that talks about the lack of the sagittal suture. Has a picture of an alien on it.

[Joe Rogan]

Really?

[Jamie]

And they leave their skulls out. A lot of these museums, especially the ones in southern Peru, they've sort of tucked them away. They've put them in dark cases so it's harder to take pictures of them. You can't. They're not out there in the open where it's easy to pop around inside of it.

[Chris]

They're probably worried about them getting stolen, too. That this. There's an issue that I've been informed about with ancient artifacts, that there's a whole underground market where really wealthy people, like, want to buy, like, Egyptian artifacts. And there's a lot of scandals involved with a lot of these people that are in charge of these artifacts, where artifacts go missing and people get rich. And, you know, they sell books that nobody buys, and all of a sudden they have a mansion.

[Jamie]

Yeah. And if you. If you're on a government salary and you can slip one of these vases away.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

And sell it, you're gonna make a lot more money than you're gonna make in the. Working for the government.

[Chris]

Not just vases, but even skeletons. There's evidence of skeletons going missing.

[Jamie]

Yep.

[Chris]

Skeletons they found in a sarcophagus. And then all of a sudden, they said, nope, there's no skeleton. And then there's clearly documentation that they found a skeleton that leads back decades ago. And today they're saying, no, no skeletons. Like, where's the skeleton?

[Jamie]

Nothing to see here.

[Chris]

Yeah. And some of that. That's the weird thing is, like, some of these. These skulls that they find. If you could find the entire skeleton, you'd imagine that is a very big person. These are not normal sized people, like whatever the structure. That's. Unless they have an enormous head and a little tiny body. If they have a proportionate head to their body, you're looking at a 7, 8 foot tall person. This is a huge head.

[Jamie]

Yeah. And there's giant lore all over the world, in every ancient civilization and in the fucking Bible. I don't believe that that's imaginary, and I don't believe it's myths. I think that it's remembering.

[Chris]

Yeah, I think it is too. I think there's probably a different version of people that existed. And I think the real problem is we're dealing with the fossil record. And the reality of biological life is neither you nor I is very likely to leave behind a fossil. So a thousand years from now, no one's gonna know who you were and no one's gonna know who I was. And they're not gonna be able to tell from our bones. You're not gonna find them.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

They're gonna be absorbed by the ground. And that's a wrap. And in order to get a fossil, a very specific set of circumstances has to take place.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

And so, you know, we're lucky that we have some skulls. We're lucky in this. You know, a thousand years old, 2,000 years old, however old they are. But you get back to 10, 11, 12,000 years ago, 15,000 years ago, 50,000 years ago. Good luck.

[Jamie]

There's nothing left.

[Chris]

Good luck. Unless you're finding it in the permafrost, like in Alaska. Like my friend John Reeves, he has that place, the boneyard in Alaska. He's the best.

[Jamie]

That's so cool.

[Chris]

Love that. That place is crazy.

[Jamie]

Have you been?

[Chris]

No. He keeps trying to get me to go out there. And I will eventually, I promise. But the spot is absolutely bananas. He's finding all kinds of insane things out there, including animals that aren't even supposed to have existed in that area. So they're rewriting the idea of, like, what was alive and like, what, what animals were alive? Different cats and different bears. Yeah, like, we don't know that much. We're, we're basing, like, think about all we know about the dinosaurs. It's amazing how much work they've done. It's amazing how many dinosaurs they've documented. But if you look at the amount of dinosaurs that actually lived over the hundreds of millions of years, hundreds of millions of years that dinosaurs roamed the earth, there's a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction, a tiny fraction of these dinosaurs that we find that are fossilized most of Them are gone forever. Including who knows how many species that we're completely unaware of. We have no evidence of whatsoever. Now think about an intelligent species that probably buried their dead like we do, or maybe even burned them. You know, we don't know what they did. Or, you know, maybe they were even more enlightened. They did the Tibetan sky funeral where they let themselves get eaten by vultures. You're not gonna find anything, right?

[Jamie]

No, you're absolutely right. It feels like people should be just maybe a little bit more open to our past.

[Chris]

I think people are. I think the problem is some of these, and I say some. It's only some of these academics.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

There's a lot of people that are deviating from that now and again. It's a lot of young people, you know, like guys like Michael Button, do you know, he is. He's great. He went to school, got a degree and was like, I think there's more to this. And I think I could do a better job doing a YouTube channel where I just research these things thoroughly and provide you with a very balanced perspective on how crazy all this stuff is and how none of this really makes sense if you use the conventional timeline.

[Joe Rogan]

Yep.

[Jamie]

And people are hungry for that information.

[Chris]

Yeah, I am. It's. I'm obsessed.

[Jamie]

Thank goodness that the Internet has democratized it. So, yes, people like me can get on there and put a video on and just see what people think.

[Chris]

And you really learn a lot when you see people like you get attacked, you know, and people like Jimmy Corsetti and all these people, like they go after people so hard and they always take the same. They always take.

[Jamie]

It's always racism.

[Chris]

Racism, exactly. That's what I was going to say. Which is so crazy because no one's attributing the Indian temples to anything other than Indian.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Chris]

Like, it's not racist. It's just saying. I'm saying Indians from like a long ass time ago. It's the same people.

[Jamie]

It's something to be even more proud of.

[Chris]

Yes. Yeah. It's crazy. Like, no one is saying that the people in Peru, humans in Peru, didn't make that stuff. No one. No one's saying that. Right, that's exactly what we're saying.

[Jamie]

Yep.

[Chris]

But we're saying is probably the people in Peru were incredibly sophisticated before the flood. Yeah, that's probably what it was.

[Jamie]

Egypt. It doesn't make any sense that they're shutting that down. To extend your timeline, if you're able to. To 20,000 years ago, that's twice as much to be proud of.

[Chris]

Right, right. But it's, it's just the academics who have, like, firmly stamped 2500 BC. Bam. This is, this is what we know and we're going to stick with it.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Despite all the hard evidence, like the geological evidence. Disputing that is really weird because, like, look, guys, rain does a very specific thing to stone over thousands of years.

[Jamie]

This is hard evidence right there. Yeah, that's right there.

[Chris]

And you don't really know when it was built. You're just guessing, but this isn't really much of a guess. This is actual evidence. And for them to not even consider that and to just dismiss them. And it's just lucky that guys like Robert Schalk had tenure and lucky that also that he wasn't an archaeologist, he's a geologist. And what are they going to fault him for his methods, the way he did it, what he said? No, you can't really, because it's pretty rock solid.

[Jamie]

We should be leaning on these geologists and saying, what do you see? And then informing our theories based on what they're saying.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

Not the other way around.

[Chris]

Ben Van Kirkwyk has done amazing work on some of the erosion that's around some of the pyramids and some of the bases of some of the structures around the pyramid and that it seems like there's many levels of construction and that the oldest, oldest stuff has a preposterous amount of erosion. Like, insane amount of erosion.

[Jamie]

Absolutely.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

Yep. I mean, even in. So I've spent a lot of time researching Cambodia. If you look at. So there are eight different pyramids in the media. Angkor Wat area. And these pyramids are massive. And when you, when you walk up to them, you can see how incredibly ancient they are. And the, the dating on these pyramids are, you know, 900 AD to 1300 AD. So not very old, the official dating. But when you stare at the stones, you can see the same thing you see in Egypt. You see just ancient weathering patterns down the sides of them. You can see how the whole site has been rebuilt. And they don't talk about it. Right. So the entire history of Cambodia, nobody, nobody is open at all to exploring that it might be older than 800 AD.

[Chris]

Let's look at some photos of Angkor Wat, because it's another incredibly bizarre place. And when people use the conventional timeline to date it, it's not. It's amazing and it's beautiful, but it's not as crazy when you really, if, if you take into consideration that no One really knows when it was built and the possibility that it's actually 11,000 years old, 12,000 years old, maybe even older. It almost kind of makes sense.

[Jamie]

Have you done.

[Chris]

Because it would look just like that.

[Jamie]

Yeah. And the temples or the towers inside the core of Angkor Wat. In my personal opinion, the core of Angkor Wat, it's got three different layers. The core, I think, is extremely old. It's got these five central towers. They look almost melted. So you can see the five in the middle. As you move out by each layer, all of the iconography in Angkor Wat changes. So in the center, it's all deities. It's religious symbolism. As you move out, it becomes war scenes and elephants and battles. Right. So you can see where each successive culture has built onto the outside of Angkor Wat. But the core of looks enormously old.

[Chris]

And let's get some photos of the core of it.

[Jamie]

Have you ever. Have you ever discussed the LIDAR findings around Angkor Wat? I have not, Jamie. I have some photos in my Cambodia folder.

[Joe Rogan]

Trying to dance the line of looking at these before I switch over to your stuff.

[Chris]

God, look how beautiful that is. Look how the trees roots are grown all around it.

[Jamie]

Cambodia is one of the most special places on this earth.

[Chris]

Imagine what that was like during its prime. Oh,

[Jamie]

that's the Bayon Temple. The temple with 218 faces.

[Chris]

Wow.

[Jamie]

Enormous faces.

[Chris]

So are those.

[Joe Rogan]

Is that like. Those are clearly different stones brought in?

[Jamie]

Yeah, they're individual stones to compare it

[Joe Rogan]

to the other stuff we've seen where it's not that. Correct?

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Very different.

[Chris]

Yep. Very different kind of construction.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Spectacular. But maybe makes more sense than like Kailasa in 2012.

[Jamie]

That's a great photo, Jamie. In 2012, they did a LIDAR survey in Cambodia. And what they discovered in Cambodia completely shocked the world. So you can see Angkor Wat in this photo is right in the middle of that giant moat. There were huge moundfields all around Angkor Wat, inside this moat and outside of Angkor Watts. And then if you go south of it, you can see these giant spiral embankments. If you just zoom out a tiny bit. Jamie, do you see those spirals in the bottom left side of the screen?

[Chris]

Mm.

[Jamie]

Those are from one side to the other. They're a mile long. Yeah. So these are the geometric features at

[Chris]

Angkor Wat and these are hidden from the naked eye?

[Jamie]

Yes, they're under the jungle canopy. Nobody knew that these were there until 2012 when the LIDAR results came out.

[Chris]

Holy.

[Jamie]

There are moundfields that are A mile. This particular moundfield is a mile long. It's got, it's a 10 by 10 moundfield. And these mounds are enormous. They're like 30ft across. And there's no explanation at all for what these are.

[Chris]

And they didn't even know they existed.

[Jamie]

They didn't even know they existed. So this is Angkor Wat from the air. Very, very interesting. That western beret where you see that's a man made. It's the largest hand cut reservoir on Earth. It's 8km long and 2km wide. So you can see the old Siem Reap International Airport just south of it. That's the size of this thing. It is enormous. The official archaeological story of these berets is that they were hand dug and that they were used to water rice. There's one on the left side, that's the western beret. There's an equally large one on the east side. So there are two of them that are 8km long on each side, 2km wide. Just an enormous volume of dirt would have had to have been removed to create these. And there's no discussion at all about what they were for, how they were made. They're just attributed to different kings based on inscriptions found in the corners of these sites. So if you want to talk about mysteries, in my humble opinion, Cambodia is one of the most mysterious places on Earth.

[Chris]

How old do they think this reservoir is?

[Jamie]

Like 900 AD? So not old at all. And there's no explanation for how it was done just to excavate. The western beret is the equivalent of 53 Giza sized pyramids of dirt moved out of it. So this is it today you can see there's a temple in the middle

[Chris]

of it that's so big, that's so crazy that they, they supposedly dug that out by hand.

[Jamie]

You can see this from space. NASA's taking photos of it before. There's no explanation for, for what they were doing there.

[Chris]

What is the images of the pyramids up in the corner.

[Jamie]

That's the amount? Yeah, that's the equivalent. So 138 million cubic meters of dirt to dig that out.

[Chris]

How deep is it?

[Jamie]

It's, you know, five or 10 meters deep. And I, I believe that they, you know, they dug out the inside and then they built these large walls, you know, retaining walls on the outside. So I don't think that there's huge piles of dirt somewhere. I think that's, you know, it was just deepened and then they built the walls around them to retain them. But there's a lot of really interesting, complex things going on with these berets.

[Joe Rogan]

This reminds me of. I had Perplexity dig up something on the Kaliasa Temple.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Let me find it. Here I was. It was just going into like is the ability of what. Do you know how many people they thought made it? I guess I'll ask you that first. Do you know how they could. The conventional method. They said 250 people made it over five and a half years. The problem with that is it started.

[Chris]

I like to hire those dudes.

[Joe Rogan]

It started to tell me like that's kind of like, okay. But then it started to get. I was like, actually the hardest part with this is going to be removing all of that rock.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Like we're not. They couldn't. Didn't say like where is it? But it just was going into the math. This is all the Perplexity did. It's all this math on.

[Chris]

This is Kailasa.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

The amount of stone that can be

[Joe Rogan]

removed every day and it just would have taken. It is even just 250 people is a fourth of the potential. The number they tried to destroy it with for three years. And it has the same tools. I guess they just said they had some sort of metal. This says five and a half years.

[Chris]

They tried to destroy it for three years.

[Jamie]

That had to have been a quit really frustrating. Three years.

[Chris]

A thousand guys tried to destroy it for three years. You imagine that. That is crazy.

[Joe Rogan]

It was 100 and it's just exaggerated. You know, they couldn't do anything.

[Chris]

That's really crazy.

[Jamie]

You know how mad that King was? He's like, just destroy it.

[Chris]

Imagine what a dick he must have been.

[Jamie]

Oh yeah.

[Chris]

To want to destroy that. That's the problem with kings.

[Jamie]

It's the problem with kings.

[Chris]

Good Lord. That's wild.

[Jamie]

So, yeah, Cambodia is incredibly mysterious and nobody talks about Cambodia.

[Chris]

Would you like some coffee?

[Joe Rogan]

Sure.

[Jamie]

Thank you.

[Chris]

So how did you get involved in Cambodia? What was the first thing that you looked at?

[Jamie]

I went there for the first time three years ago. It was a quick stopover. We were getting ready to hike the Son Dong cave in Vietnam, you know, the largest cave in the world.

[Chris]

I saw that on 60 Minutes.

[Jamie]

Yeah. So we had that trip planned and I said, well, Cambodia's right next to. Maybe we should just pop over there for a week. So we did. And you know, walking on these sites, it's the same thing I was talking about earlier. I like to hire local guides just to hear what's the story that they're telling you. What is the official history and the story that they told me? Just, it doesn't match what you see with your own eyes. Right. So they say that the earliest civilizations there built in Breck and then they built with stone. Over time they developed the ability to build with stone, but all of the brick is on top of the stone. It's on top of these massive pyramids. Right. So it doesn't, it doesn't make sense that the oldest stuff is at the top. So I started sort of questioning the history of Cambodia. I got into these lidar results which are really fascinating. I mean, they discovered entire unknown cities in Cambodia with LiDAR. So on top of the Kulin Mountains, which is the plateau where they quarry all of the stone for Angkor Wat, all the sandstone, there was an entire massive city on top of that plateau that they had no idea was there. There were pyramids, there were 2,000 acre reservoirs, there were moundfields, there were, you know, massive causeways and it was all just hidden under the, the trees, the jungle. So it's, you know, in 2012, sort of the cat was out of the bag in Cambodia. And what's interesting is it should have made international headlines. You know, these spiral embankments that are a mile long on the south side of Angkor Wat. Nobody knows what they are. Nobody has a good explanation for what they are. Archaeologists say, you know, maybe it was a garden feature, maybe it was fishing. And in my mind, you don't build mile long earthen embankments in a shape of a perfect spiral unless you have a very specific reason for doing that.

[Chris]

What do you think that reason was?

[Jamie]

I don't know. I, you know, I'm starting to put together a theory about. I, I think it all had to do with water. They were channeling water down from the Kuin Mountains, which is about 50 miles away from Angkor Wat. They were channeling water down, building 16 kilometer diversion channels, taking the water way out of the way, running them through mound fields into these giant reservoirs. All of these reservoirs have pyramids connected to them and it's one system after another of reservoirs with temples in the middle, pyramids connected to the outside. It feels like a massive industrial undertaking. And I've gone back and forth. Does it have to do with energy? Possibly. I personally think it had something to do with how they were treating the water. Like if they could, if they could get it structured maybe right, so that it was better for plants, better for people, better for animals, better for consciousness. There was a massive undertaking happening there that, that just isn't addressed at all by archaeologists. Nobody's tying together these different systems and saying, gosh, that was a monumental undertaking. I wonder what they were doing that for. It's all just rice farming is the official story.

[Chris]

Can you show me that LIDAR image again?

[Joe Rogan]

I'm looking for more. I keep running into just the scientific papers about it.

[Jamie]

They have the LIDAR images that are locked away.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, they've done a bunch of studies on this and there's some cool photos. But I'm trying to find like, you

[Chris]

know, can you go back to the ones that we were just looking at though that she provided? Because I want to see the, the, the patterns.

[Jamie]

Yes.

[Chris]

Yeah, that, okay, that. Perfect. Like so. Those features are weird. That's really weird.

[Jamie]

They're huge, They're a mile long and half a mile wide, like that yellow square.

[Chris]

And they're symmetrical.

[Jamie]

And they're perfectly symmetrical. And this isn't the only place in Cambodia that has these.

[Chris]

And so we're probably looking at an intensely sophisticated civilization.

[Jamie]

Yes, absolutely. I mean the moat, you see, dug in the middle of that structure that was built during the Khmer period, which is the civilization that all of this is being attributed to. They're the ones that dug that through the middle. So I don't even think they knew that this was here.

[Chris]

It was just completely covered.

[Jamie]

Yeah, they just dug right through the middle of it.

[Chris]

And so this is probably really, really old and people have lived in that same place. Look how crazy that looks. That's crazy. Almost crazy.

[Jamie]

Almost every inch of ancient Cambodia is engineered. There's a site called kokare, it's about 200 miles northeast of Angkor Wat. They discovered a seven kilometer long man made dam that created a 2,000 acre reservoir.

[Chris]

Look at that image.

[Jamie]

Yeah, they didn't know that this was there.

[Chris]

That's crazy.

[Jamie]

I was on a tour with Derek Olson last November and we actually took the tour group out to the corner of Angkor Wat and walked those mounds. And what's interesting is when you're out there, you actually can't tell that the mounds are there until you're kind of on top of them. And then you look around and you're like, wow, I'm feet above the rest of the landscape. And then you kind of keep walking because these things are 30ft across. So you keep walking and then suddenly you're at the bottom of the landscape. So I don't think that they knew it was there.

[Chris]

Wow. It's so big that without lidar you're really not going to get an understanding what it is.

[Jamie]

So that picture. Yeah. So there's a good example of the jungle canopy being kind of stripped away. This is what it looks like from the air without LiDAR.

[Chris]

So there's no way you would know.

[Jamie]

No.

[Chris]

Wow.

[Jamie]

Entire cities, 7 kilometer long dams, huge reservoirs. They didn't know about any of this until LIDAR came out.

[Chris]

That's incredible.

[Joe Rogan]

Also, look how the trees are just growing back in.

[Chris]

That's so dope. Look how awesome those roots look.

[Jamie]

That's the Lara Croft temple. It's called Ta Prong.

[Chris]

Oh, really?

[Jamie]

Yeah. She filmed. Lara Croft was filmed at this temple.

[Joe Rogan]

For real?

[Jamie]

For real, for real.

[Chris]

They actually let her film there. That movie?

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Wow.

[Chris]

Pretty dope.

[Jamie]

Yeah. Tourists love it.

[Chris]

That tree just overcoming the building's amazing.

[Jamie]

They have their hands full in Cambodia with preserving these temples because the jungle's actively tearing it down.

[Chris]

Yeah. It looks like the jungle's trying to consume it with that tree.

[Jamie]

Absolutely.

[Chris]

Like, eventually it will.

[Jamie]

Yep.

[Chris]

Eventually, if more trees grow like that, it'll break down all the stone underneath it.

[Jamie]

The. The structures, I believe are older, like the pyramids. They're a little bit more impermeable to these kinds of things. The newer temples, like the one you see on the screen, they just get ripped down. You know, it's a little bit inferior construction. So it's newer, obviously. I think the Khmer actually built those, and so those just get ripped down immediately by trees. But the really old stuff, the pyramids, if you see photos, when they excavated it in, like, the 1920s, they were fully intact.

[Chris]

You were talking about the center of it, that it's different, that it looks older. Is there any clear images of, like, what that looks like?

[Jamie]

If you. Of the pyramids or of Angkor Wat?

[Chris]

Angkor Wat, the center.

[Jamie]

I don't think I have photos in that folder, but you can if you.

[Chris]

Because you were talking about the difference between the iconography.

[Jamie]

Yeah. If you search the. Just the central towers of Angkor Wat, you're probably going to find images of that. The. The central. It's. So it's three layers that get higher and higher as you get toward the middle of Angkor Wat. And in the middle of it, it's very. It's just. It's carvings that just blow your mind. And they're all. They're all spiritual in nature, which is something you see all over the world. So in India, where I just was. It was the same thing. The older structures, it's spiritual imagery. And then as you move out to the newer structures, it's all War scenes. You know, you can see the de. Evolution of human consciousness. Yeah. So these are from the center of Angkor Wat. It's deities. You know, It's. It's beautiful 3D carvings. You can stick gum wrappers through these. So they're. They're fully enclosed. You can stick a gum wrapper behind these stones.

[Joe Rogan]

Whoa.

[Chris]

God, it's so pretty.

[Jamie]

It's so beautiful.

[Chris]

And this is all this. So it's. That's so interesting that the people that probably built it first had no interest in war. No interest in war, or at least had a very enlightened perspective.

[Jamie]

It does support, you know, the idea of. I know you've talked about the Yuga cycles on this show, but the idea of the. Of human consciousness having reached its peak 12,000 years ago and has just been slowly devolving ever since. You can see that in the imagery in some of these temples, plain as day. So, yeah, there's a lot of images of, you know, war scenes on the outer. Like, all of the outer layers of Angkor Wat, but in the middle, it's totally different. Same in India.

[Chris]

Now, does anybody have an idea, like, does anybody have a compelling theory as to when these were made that, like, is backed by any kind of evidence or.

[Jamie]

No, No. I mean, you can look at carbon dating and you can poke holes in the carbon dating all day long. So they'll carbon date wood samples. You know, these are made of stone. You can't date stone. There's reconstructions that have happened on all these sites that are brick. And then there's going to be. There's wood doorways that are put in, and they've carbon dated the wood. And the wood, in a lot of instances, is coming back older than the accepted date of the temple construction in general, which is a little bit problematic. So, like, there's a pyramid called Bakong, which is the oldest accepted pyramid in Cambodia. That one's dated to, like 800 A.D. the wood samples in the repaired sections of Bakan are from the 600s. And they say, well, that's generally the same, you know. And so you have to ask yourself if they were reconstructing and rebuilding these sites. Say they were doing that during the Khmer times. They were using bricks and they were using wood to repair these sites. They were doing that in 600 A.D. so how old is the pyramid itself that they, you know, they came there and they repaired the pyramid. How old is that core structure?

[Chris]

Yeah, and to assume that it's the same age is crazy.

[Jamie]

It's crazy. And it's a bit of a circular argument because they date a temple based on an inscription and then they look at other temples that don't have inscriptions and they say, well, this one looks a lot like this one. So they place it in the same time period. So it just becomes this big circular logic of all of it, fits the story neatly based on one inscription.

[Chris]

That seems so silly. Yeah, it just doesn't make sense. It seems much more likely that there's a giant mystery.

[Jamie]

Yes.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Chris]

And especially when you look at the difference in the artwork and the way it looks. Will you show me, Jamie?

[Joe Rogan]

This. They say that this one took 300,000 workers approximately 30 years, and they never finished Incor Wat.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

This says they also started at around 11:6, 11:16 CE.

[Jamie]

Yeah. It doesn't make any sense. So I was recently in India a couple weeks ago, and I saw something there that was the most impressive thing I've seen with my own two eyes. It's called the Baahubali statue. I have photos in the India folder. It's a thousand tons. So it's as big as the biggest destroyed structures or the biggest destroyed statues in Egypt. But it's still standing. It's in India. It's on top of a mountain. It's made of granite. That's a person.

[Chris]

Whoa.

[Jamie]

At the bottom of it.

[Chris]

Holy shit.

[Jamie]

It's made of white granite. There's. You know, the jury's out on whether it was moved there, built somewhere else and moved there, or whether this was built at the top of the hill from Livingstone. But in my mind, this thing is clearly machined. It's absolutely perfect. Those ears are five and a half feet long.

[Joe Rogan]

Whoa.

[Chris]

Look at the lips and the fingernails and everything. Look how crazy the precision is.

[Jamie]

It's perfect. Look at the head. So these are all photos I took while I was there. It stands, you know, it's 60ft tall. It's a thousand tons. So it's the largest standing statue on Earth from ancient times.

[Chris]

And where's the stone supposedly coming from?

[Jamie]

Well, you know, the story is. And I actually think I believe it, the whole mountain is granite. And so in order for this thing. So that's just it poking out above the temple that's built around it.

[Chris]

That's mad.

[Jamie]

It's insane. You know, the story is that basically it was.

[Chris]

Look at the leaves on his arm.

[Jamie]

That they built it out of living stone, that it's still connected to the mountain. And it kind of looks like that when you walk around it. You can see this rough stone at the bottom. But it looks very different than the stone from the mountain itself. So this is a white granite. Yeah. So you can see how it almost looks like living stone. And I can't imagine how you could have erected that and moved it to the top of this mountain. So I personally believe that it was found. You know, it was built there. So connection.

[Chris]

So there was a large stone that was there and they just went in and chiseled this statue out of it.

[Jamie]

Yep. It represents Ba U Bali, which was the. It's a Jain statue. And Ba' U Bali was a man who achieved enlightenment by standing still for a full year. So the ant in Cobra hills at the bottom, and then the vines grew up around him.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh.

[Jamie]

So he's the picture of enlightenment.

[Chris]

Whoa.

[Jamie]

So just look at that image. How was that built? I sat in front of this thing for two hours, just entranced by it. And the beautiful thing about the temples in India is they are all living temples. So they're actively being taken care of by the community. They're active places of worship. They're not off in the jungle breaking down. They're being taken care of. And, you know, this looks like it was carved yesterday.

[Chris]

And what timeline is this attributed to?

[Jamie]

About 980 A.D. and why do they think that? Because of those very unsophisticated inscriptions at the base of it.

[Chris]

Can I see those inscriptions? Yeah, right there. Yeah, yeah. Not so sophisticated. They look really shitty.

[Jamie]

So they carved those around the base and they said, I built this.

[Chris]

Look how clunky those inscriptions are.

[Joe Rogan]

This paragraph here on this thing I showed you about Anger Watt shines a little light onto that.

[Chris]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

It says, like. I'll let you read it.

[Chris]

Buildings of temples by the Khmer kings was a means of legitimizing their claim to political office and also to lay claim to the protection and powers of the gods. Hindu temples are not a place of religious congregation. Instead, they are homes of the God. In order for a king to lay claim to his political office, he had to prove that the gods did not support his predecessors or his enemies. To this end, the king had to build the grandest temple palace for the gods, one that proved to be more lavish than any previous temples. In doing so, the king could make visible his ability to harness the energy and resources to construct the temple and assert that his temple was the only place that a God would consider residing in on earth.

[Jamie]

Interestingly, in Cambodia, all of the pyramids were the first structures claimed by the kings. So the first king built the first pyramid, the second king built the Second pyramid. So what I think they were doing is they were going into this landscape and they were finding these incredibly sophisticated pyramids. And just like that paragraph suggests, they said, wow, this is the coolest thing I can find around. And they wrote their name on it, you know, and then once all the pyramids were taken, then they started claiming the berets, they started claiming the really nice temples. Like, there's a temple called Bantiye Srei, which is a red sandstone temple. It's beautiful. It's one of the coolest places I've ever been. You know, they. They claimed all of these places first, so all of the coolest stuff in Cambodia is the oldest. And then once everything was claimed, then they started building new ones, like that Bayon temple that you saw with the faces and the smaller stones. So that's what I think happened in Cambodia.

[Chris]

Jamie, can you go back once again to that giant statue and the inscriptions on it? Those inscriptions are weird because it's so shitty. Yeah. Like, look how bad the lines are, how squiggly they are and broken up.

[Jamie]

And there's another photo in there of the rest of the inscriptions. They're even worse. I mean, these are actually very nice compared to the ones that are.

[Chris]

But not when you consider the grandness of the actual statue itself. The statue is so spectacular.

[Jamie]

Yeah. I mean, look how they wrote it just up any space that they could find. They wrote their name there. But it looks entirely different than the rest of the statue.

[Chris]

It looks super clunky.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Like, it really does. It's stark contrast.

[Jamie]

The toe on this statue is three feet long. The ear is larger than most humans.

[Chris]

That's so crazy. Like, looking at it, it's so.

[Jamie]

Isn't it incredible?

[Chris]

Imagine the time that it would take to make something like this with chisels.

[Jamie]

Yes. And there was nothing else made like it.

[Chris]

Not only that, like, what are we talking about in terms of metallurgy back then?

[Jamie]

Oh, hammers and chisels.

[Chris]

Yeah. Well, did they even have iron?

[Jamie]

Yeah, they did.

[Chris]

They had iron. So they had iron chisels. And this is again, was it 900, 900 AD? God.

[Jamie]

And it's almost perfectly symmetrical.

[Chris]

And you think it looks machined?

[Jamie]

I do. It looks very similar to the Egyptian statues. I have some side by side photos in the folder.

[Chris]

Can you focus on the neck, Jamie? Go back to the neck. Because one of the things that was crazy about when you saw the image of the neck, like, look at the lines. I know. Like, what is that?

[Jamie]

There's lines, similar lines. Like that on the large statues in Cambodia. And there's similar lines like that on the large statues in Egypt.

[Joe Rogan]

This one reminds me of Mount Rushmore. Didn't we make that by hand or. No. I don't know.

[Chris]

I think they use dynamite.

[Joe Rogan]

I'm just scared. It's like that's the only thing in my head I can think of.

[Chris]

No, that's true. Mount Rushmore. Immense.

[Jamie]

And this is white granite. So this is an extremely hard stone.

[Chris]

What was Mount Rushmore made?

[Joe Rogan]

I don't have to look. I just was thinking of it. It's like we made that a thousand years later.

[Chris]

That is true. That is true. But we did that with machines. They had machines back then.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

I mean, they had jackhammers. They had all kinds of stuff back

[Jamie]

then when these were civilizations that were at war. But somehow they found the time to. To carve this.

[Chris]

I just. I'm wondering what those lines in the neck are supposed to represent. The statue is so beautiful.

[Jamie]

Isn't it amazing?

[Chris]

God, it's so incredible.

[Joe Rogan]

Maybe they're gonna make something and stop.

[Chris]

You know how dope that would be if that was in your backyard? I'd never get anything done.

[Jamie]

You can see this thing from 50 miles away.

[Chris]

Whoa.

[Jamie]

It's up on top of a mountain and it's at the peak of the mountain. So from 50 miles in each direction, you can see this massive statue just staring serenely. So if you. It's Gomitshwara Bali. Bali, statue of. No. So there's a couple of different ones. This one's the best one. So that's the third picture to the

[Chris]

right, the one in the middle. Yeah.

[Jamie]

So yeah, that's a drone photo of it when I was on it.

[Chris]

That is crazy.

[Jamie]

It's crazy. And it's the largest ancient standing statue in the world. And very few people talk about this thing.

[Chris]

I've never even heard of it until today.

[Jamie]

Yep.

[Chris]

Wow. So that was probably just a big ass rock that was there. And they chipped away everything to make that.

[Jamie]

I mean, there's two options. One, maybe it was a big rock, but look how much would have had to have been reduced. And look at the stones to the right. You can see how different look than the statue itself.

[Chris]

Do you think it's possible that stone was moved there?

[Jamie]

I think it's possible it was moved there. Not with any technology we recognize today, but I think it's absolutely possible. It would have had to have been taken to the top of this mountain, which is like 650ft high and stood up. But Even if it wasn't. Even if it wasn't. Even if it was a standalone boulder like the ones you see below it, that's still an extraordinary feat to carve that thing in almost perfect symmetry in a way that looks very, very machined.

[Chris]

That is bananas.

[Jamie]

Yeah. So you. You climb the mountain. It's like 650 steps. You have to do it barefoot because it's a active temple. On the way down, it got real hot.

[Chris]

Oh, you can wear socks.

[Jamie]

You can wear socks. But it's slippery.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh.

[Chris]

So gotta wear them. Grippy socks if you want to.

[Jamie]

I didn't think of that.

[Chris]

Yeah. Like for Pilates.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Wow.

[Jamie]

It's an amazing place. And it's still. The beautiful thing about it is it's still just revered as a holy site. So people, the Jains, take pilgrimages there every 12 years. They have these major ceremonies where they pour milk and honey and things like that. Over the top of it, they build a big scaffolding so they'll climb up to its head and pour. Pour these libations over the top of it. And it's just being continuously worshiped. And when you sit up there to get a little bit spiritual for you, you feel different. You feel like you're being healed. Like, we had a plane to catch and I didn't want to leave. We sat in front of that. It was my brother and I, and we sat in front of it for as many hours as we could before we had to go catch our plane. Wow.

[Chris]

Wow. What was going on back then? This is the real big question. Like, what was the height of sophisticated civilization 10,000, 12,000 years ago? What was it really like? And how much information did we lose because of the flood?

[Jamie]

Yeah. What's interesting is if you look at Jain mythology, so they talk about these great half cycles that are an incalculable number of years, and they're. They're called tirthankaras. So they're like the kings? The, The. They're not kings. They're like the enlightened ones of the period. The first Tirthankara was Bali. Bali was the son of that enlightened being. He was described as being over a mile tall, fully enlightened. Right. He was described as millions of years old. And these are their myths that go back to an incalculable amount of time, and that's just in this half cycle. So they just describe these major cycles of time. And the images that they're building at the top of these mountains are of these enlightened beings that Are part of these, like ancient myths?

[Joe Rogan]

Jeez,

[Chris]

you know, when you go into their ancient scriptures and you, you read about things like vimanas, like the flying crafts and, you know, and we were talking the other day about, they had some sort of a description that seems to sound like a nuclear bomb and you had to use it for very specific reasons and you had to get authority to use it and. Amazon Health AI presents painful thoughts.

[Jamie]

Why did I search the Internet for answers to my cold sore? Now I'm stuck down a rabbit hole filled with images of alarmingly graphic source in various stages of ooze. I can clear my search history, but I can never unsee that.

[Chris]

Don't go down the rabbit hole. Amazon Health AI gets you the right care fast. Healthcare just got less painful.

[Jamie]

Yeah, even. Do you know what a Shiva lingam is?

[Chris]

No.

[Jamie]

In my Cambodia folder there's some photos of it. So in most of the Indian temples, there's a Shiva lingam that's usually described as a, you know, it's a male component inside a female component. So it's meant to represent both sides of the polarities. And they're at the entrance of most of these temples and they're small, they're maybe like 2 or 3ft long. But in Cambodia, there are giant Shiva lingams. There are ones that are probably almost 20ft long and you can see those at sites like Kokair. You can see them at the top of Phnom Bak Mountain, which is right by one of the big berets in India. The Shiva lingams are even bigger. If you go to the ancient texts and they talk about these things, they describe them as infinite pillars of light and fire. So are these Shiva lingam, these giant Shiva lingams? Actually, they're not. I don't believe that they're what we say they are today. I think that they were extremely powerful. Maybe a, maybe a weapon? I don't think so. Maybe an energy device. But if you look at modern day stonework and then you tie it into the old myths, you know, that's when it becomes really, really interesting to me. Yeah. So that schevelingam that the man is standing on in the top right photo, that's at Hampi in India. These are always surrounded by water. They're always in roofless shrines. This, you know, very megalithic temples. The one in the bottom right, that's not AI, that's a real photo of these Shiva lingams. That one's 40ft high. Originally in a roofless temple by large bodies of water. Were these actually, I mean, I think that these were all something very different than what we're being told today, which is just, you know, a spiritual carving.

[Chris]

So you think this has something to do with energy and that's why they're surrounded by water?

[Jamie]

Yeah. I mean, in the ancient texts, they're described as an infinite pillar of light and fire. That's what a normal Shiva lingam looks like that you see all over the temples.

[Chris]

Right. Which is just like a beautiful fountain.

[Jamie]

A very small version of. Of these monumental ones that you can find in Cambodia and India.

[Joe Rogan]

Phallic looking. Yep.

[Jamie]

Yes.

[Chris]

Yeah. So go back to the big ones. An infinite source of light. Pillar.

[Jamie]

Pillar of fire and light.

[Chris]

That's what they're described as.

[Jamie]

Yes.

[Chris]

What the hell is that?

[Jamie]

Like what, what were they doing with these things? They always face north. They're always in a roofless temple. They always have major water features next to them.

[Joe Rogan]

Is that how they made power, maybe?

[Chris]

Power, yeah. I think that's what she's implying.

[Joe Rogan]

Electricity or something.

[Chris]

Or something. Some kind of power.

[Jamie]

The myths suggest that there was something going on there.

[Chris]

Well, this is the question that I always have when, you know, we. When we think about technology, we always think about in the context of what we understand currently. And if you think of human beings, the way we've progressed to get to where we are now is through internal combustion engines and transistors and all these different technologies that were available that we have right now. There could have been completely different direction that they went in and achieved similar or more spectacular sophistication in this different direction.

[Jamie]

Yes.

[Chris]

And the idea that this is the only way to go is kind of crazy.

[Jamie]

Yeah. It doesn't have to be mechanical.

[Chris]

Especially when this is a fairly sick society in terms of our value system. And you know what? We, you know, we're a mess.

[Jamie]

Yes.

[Chris]

Like, objectively, yes.

[Jamie]

Mentally, physically, we're as sick as we've ever been. It's the only reason our lifespan is increasing is because we've overcome it with technology.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

Right, Right. We're as sick as we've ever been, as unhappy as we've ever been. I think that's part of the reason that the powers that be don't want us talking about golden ages. Right. So if you can convince civilization that, if you can convince today's society that we are the best we've ever been, life is as good as it's ever been. That's much more palatable than we are as sick as we've ever been. We're as Unhappy as we've ever been.

[Chris]

Do you think that people are actively trying to enforce that narrative because of that, or do you think they're just reinforcing their own current beliefs?

[Jamie]

I think a little of both.

[Chris]

I don't think they know. I think there's a lot of these people that are. These that are conventional archaeologists, conventional timeline proponents. I don't think they really study it all. I don't think they do. I think they try to discredit some things and they do it very disingenuously, like some of the people that have gone after Graham Hancock. The things they say are really kind of crazy, but I don't. I think they're doing it because they're trying to reinforce their own closely held beliefs and this gatekeeping of information. Being the person that's the expert.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

You know, this is appeal to expertise in an area where you have very little data.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

It's like you really can't be an expert in something that you, you know, especially like timelines of stone. Like, how. How do you know? You don't really know.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Chris]

You don't know.

[Jamie]

Okay. Yeah.

[Chris]

So let's go from there.

[Jamie]

We don't know.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

That's an okay thing to say.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

Or I'm open to the possibilities.

[Chris]

I don't think they're trying to promote it because they think that we want to establish that, you know, human beings today are sick. And let's, let's not pay attention to an enlightened golden age when people were different and they were concentrating much more on the spiritual aspects of human life. And they. They had deities that were spectacular and they had technology that was above and beyond. I think, I think they're just not willing to entertain it, you know, I think. And again, I think that's like what they say about science, that science moves on and progresses one funeral at a time. Yeah, Yeah. I think that's the case with archeology as well. I think there's a lot of these people that just. They have to go away.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

And then the new people coming up, a lot of them are watching YouTube, you know, a lot of them are reading these papers. A lot of them are looking at the work of Filippo Biondi that's underneath the pyramids, and they're going, hey, explain that.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Because you really can't, you know, and they try to dismiss it so hard. But that technology is like, if you are trust the science, like, you got to trust the science. And that technology is proven that not only that, they use that technology to Accurately get the dimensions of things like that particle collider that's 1.2 kilometers into a mountain.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

So if they have that and they can use that on a known specific structure, they know the dimensions of it and then they get a reading that's the exact dimensions, that specific structure. It's because technology works. Yeah, Right. But they don't want to even entertain it because it's too crazy. Like, if what he's saying about what's underneath the pyramids is correct, the whole timeline's gone.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Like, everything's gone. Like, it's like, okay, Yep, we don't know.

[Jamie]

You know, he just basically announced that he discovered a second sphinx. And if you look at the layout of the Giza Plateau, it actually makes sense that a second sphinx would be there. The structures under the pyramid are very difficult to prove out because you have to dig or excavate under the pyramid to do that. The second sphinx is, if it's there, is simply buried by a pile of sand. So that would be a very easy thing to dig out and to prove. Yes. Filippo Biondi is. His technology is showing something that's actually there.

[Chris]

What is the second sphinx look like in the images?

[Jamie]

He just had a conference in Italy, and his translated version of his talk at this conference just came out, I think, yesterday or the day before. And he shows all of these scans that he's done from space, and he kind of puts them together and shows the shape of the structure that I'm seeing under the ground looks a whole lot like the existing sphinx. And he actually used AI and ran probabilities against his scans. And so he went to Grok and Google Gemini and all of the different AIs, and effectively said, if you look at my data, what do you think the odds are of a sphinx being under the sand? And AI came back in almost every instance higher than 80% probability that it is a sphinx, based on the data that he's showing. Whoa, that would be incredible.

[Chris]

That seems easy.

[Jamie]

And like I said, all you have to do is. So when they. When they excavated the tombs that are right next to where Biondi believes the Sphinx is, they took all of the sand from those and piled it directly on top of the Sphinx, not knowing it was there. And so you just need to move this sand out of the way and dig down and you can prove what he's. Whether it's there or not.

[Chris]

Haven't people disputed that, though? Like, aren't there some photos where that mound didn't exist from, like, the 1930s?

[Jamie]

Or something. Yeah. So that's when they excavated those tombs. They took that. That sand and they piled it there. So initially, when Biondi talked about this, like on Matt Bell's podcast, when he announced this, people came out immediately and said what he thinks he's seeing is actually a modern pile of soil, but what he's showing is below that in his scans. So I think it's a big opportunity for the people in Egypt to go out, do a little mission, dig down, see what's there, and you can prove, you know. Yes. So the dream, Stella. A lot of these different traditions talk about two sphinxes and the geometry. From the air, you can see where he believes he found the Sphinx. You know, geometrically, it looks very similar to where the first Sphinx was found in relation to the different pyramids.

[Chris]

Whoa.

[Jamie]

So, yeah. So, you know, I think go back to that.

[Joe Rogan]

Just. Just talking about it.

[Chris]

I know, but they say it's false. Well, I love how they say that. Viral claims of second buried sphinx at Giza are false. Archaeologists say, well, how do you know if you didn't dig? Yeah, how do you know? And again, also, the Sphinx was buried. This is like what's really important. Like when Napoleon found it, it was burned buried.

[Jamie]

Right.

[Chris]

So that was what. What year was that?

[Jamie]

I don't know.

[Chris]

What year is Napoleon? Seventeens.

[Jamie]

1700s.

[Joe Rogan]

I could see the head though, right?

[Chris]

Yeah, that's it. Just that.

[Jamie]

Yeah. So if the entire Sphinx. Yeah, if the entire Sphinx is varied, I guess my point is it's very hard to prove his claims of what's under the pyramids, because that's a. Look, there's a picture of them that's a real excavation.

[Chris]

So, I mean, you could easily see giving a different geographic layout, you know, different topographical layout, that if the whole body could be covered. Well, if you're in a different place and the sand comes in in a different way and it piles up even

[Jamie]

higher, it's on the west side of the Giza Plateau. The current sphinx is on the east side. And then you have the two pyramids in the middle.

[Chris]

So it is possible that sand could have just covered that over thousands and thousands of years.

[Jamie]

Absolutely. And it would be easy to prove

[Chris]

that it's there or that it's not.

[Jamie]

Or that it's not. Or that Biondi's full of shit. Or maybe he's not.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Chris]

He might not be. Well, they have also found chambers inside the Sphinx that they know are real.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

So chambers that are proven that they know exist. This technology also shows them and In

[Jamie]

Biondi's new scans, he also shows cavities inside that sphinx. Really what he believes are. Okay, so it's really exciting. And I think, you know, if you think about where this field is going in the next five or 10 years and think about the opportunities with AI and all of this technology. Look what was uncovered in Cambodia with LiDAR. Look what's happening in Egypt with scans from space. If you take AI and you start to compile, you know, I used to work for a mining company, and mining companies use lidar, or forestry companies or environmental companies. They all scan the earth. Right. With LiDAR. If you could use AI to compile all of the scans all over the world, imagine what you could start to identify that nobody's identified before as ancient structures. I think you could fundamentally change this discussion in the next five years. Just using AI and different kinds of technology that we've never been able to do in human history, we can translate untranslatable texts.

[Chris]

Yeah, I've seen that. I've seen what's really fascinating when they do these scans of scrolls from Pompeii. Have you seen that?

[Jamie]

The Vesuvius.

[Chris]

Yeah. Project amazing. Like, they're completely wrapped. Yeah, they're. And they're covered with ash, like, and they're super delicate. But they've been able to use scans to actually read the text on those scrolls.

[Jamie]

It's amazing.

[Chris]

Incredible.

[Jamie]

And there's an incredible amount of ancient texts that have been untranslated. What is hidden in there? Not just the languages that we don't know how to translate, like Rongorongo script in Easter island, but translatable script that nobody's paid attention to. The thousands of Sanskrit writings. What's hidden in there?

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Jamie]

You know, so I think it's a really exciting time to do this work. And I personally believe in the next 10 years, there are going to be extraordinary discoveries that I think it's going to be very hard to argue that we need to at least reexamine our history.

[Chris]

Yeah, without a doubt. I think that's already the case. I think there's thanks to people like you and thanks to people that are making these videos where you could see this. Just. It's just so puzzling. I mean, it doesn't make. The timeline. Doesn't make any sense. It also doesn't make any sense in terms of, like, a linear timeline of technology. It's like, what were they using? Like, how did they move this stuff? Like.

[Jamie]

And why?

[Chris]

Why? Yeah, why?

[Jamie]

Why were they building these things? Why were they Building them where they were building them?

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

You know, if you think of the Earth like a. A human body, were these sites built on the acupuncture points of Earth? They were built in highly energetic places. When you go to these sites, you feel different. People describe spontaneous healings. I have different dreams when I visit these ancient sites. You know, I. I do a lot of meditations. And when you meditate on top of a pyramid in Cambodia, you drop in immediately, you know, so you are, as a human, you're resonating with these sites in a way that you don't when you're not at them. And so I believe personally that they were building these sites in these places for a reason.

[Chris]

Well, it makes sense. And the idea that different places don't have different energy is just one of those things that people like to say that we've got a clear understanding of what energy is and what, you know, what, what, what is different about these different places? It's just different geology. It's just. There's nothing special. Yeah, there's nothing. But we don't really know that. There's so many things that we can't measure. And we definitely don't understand why certain places have a different effect on human beings. I mean, just wilderness has a different effect on human beings. It's, it's, you know, like forest bathing, it's a real thing. Like, hugging trees actually is good for you. Like grounding, walking barefoot on ground is actually good for you. And we don't truly understand why. And there's something that, in some way that we're connected to the earth that we don't quite understand.

[Jamie]

Yep. Right after I left my corporate life, I did a. Basically like a wilderness quest. So picture like a Native American vision quest where I spent four days on the side of a mountain with no food, no tent, nothing, just a journal and myself for four days with no food.

[Chris]

Why'd you do that?

[Jamie]

It was because I needed to heal from the corporate life that I had lived. I needed to recover.

[Chris]

How bad are jobs? How bad are jobs that it's better to have no food and be sitting on a mountain for four days to get your head straight?

[Jamie]

What I'll say about that experience is I think that humans don't let themselves get completely silent any longer. So what you're saying about nature healing, you, you know, over the course of three days, your body gets very weak and the voices get a lot quieter. And suddenly really the only thing you hear is your soul or God or whatever word you have for it. And you watch the stars pass at night and you're sitting there all day and it's. It was one of the most special experiences I've ever had.

[Chris]

Did you bring water? What did you do?

[Jamie]

You have basically like you have three liters of water per day that you hike into this area and you just sit with the water and that's it. The last night of it was really cool because what you're supposed to do, it's meant to be a healing and kind of rebirth. Right. So the last night you set up rocks in a circle and at sunset you enter the middle of the circle and you're keeping an all night vigil. So you're watching. You literally watch the constellations move all night. And you're supposed to try. I succeeded, but barely. To stay awake until the sun comes up. And so the idea is that you're entering as one person and you're leaving the next morning as another person. And so the Native Americans with their vision quests, they're doing it right. I think that we have completely lost our connection and ability to tune into ourselves and to tune into the earth. And you know, quests like that are really amazing.

[Chris]

Wow. And it's being blunted every day by phones and TV, 5G screens and.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

WiFi, flipping through TikTok. You know, it's different than sitting with yourself in complete silence.

[Chris]

What a complete polar opposite to corporate life.

[Jamie]

Yes. Thank God corporate life has its place, but.

[Chris]

Yeah, well, has its place. I want an iPhone. Somebody's got to make a laptop.

[Jamie]

Totally. And people need to make a living, right?

[Chris]

Yeah. It's just there's other ways. Not for everybody. I mean, we need people to not get it so that they keep working. So we have stuff.

[Jamie]

Yep, exactly. Or you know, at least to spend a portion of their life doing that.

[Chris]

And then when you think about ancient civilizations and how much time they spent in ritual and how important these things were to them and how they had this very strange connection. Like a lot of these ancient structures, particularly the Aztec structures and Egyptian structures, they mirror the constellations and so they had an understanding of their place in this universe. They knew how to make these temples so that the pillars, the summer solstice, the sun would part through the middle of the pillars and light these corridors like that. That's incredible sophistication. That's incredible. Planning. This understanding of when the sun's coming up. Exactly. At a specific time of the year was the longest day of the year. The knowledge that the sun's moving in the sky. But It'll be back on this day. And this is where it's got to be. So this is where we have to build.

[Jamie]

And they encoded that in stone.

[Chris]

And they didn't miss. They didn't get it off by a half a foot or six inches. Nope. It's like, right there. Sun in the center, right up the middle. Like, how did you do that? Yeah, how did you do that? You did that while you were hunter gathering. Like, what are you talking about? This is bananas.

[Jamie]

In the spring equinox, the sun rises exactly over the center tower of Angkor Wat. Like, perfect. They knew. They knew exactly what was happening, and they built their structures around it.

[Chris]

God.

[Jamie]

Which gets back to the why. Right? Like, yes. How did they build this? It's mind blowing, but why did they build it? Why did they build it the way that they did? Why did they build it where they did?

[Chris]

Look at that.

[Jamie]

Isn't that incredible?

[Chris]

That is bananas.

[Jamie]

Look at all the people. Just straight.

[Joe Rogan]

Wow.

[Jamie]

Straight up the east side.

[Chris]

What are the odds? I mean, they're pretty. Pretty small that you would nail it like that.

[Jamie]

You definitely get fired if you. If you were off a little bit.

[Chris]

Crazy. It's so crazy. It's so crazy.

[Jamie]

The ancients were really in tune.

[Chris]

What was it like? I mean, how much time do you spend thinking about what society must have been like then?

[Jamie]

A lot.

[Chris]

Almost every day I wonder what humans are like if we're not on this path that we're on, you know, with propaganda and gaslighting and technology and being inundated with. With just nonsense all the time and wrapped up in materialism and brands and bullshit and popularity.

[Jamie]

I think we're in touch with each other. I think we're in touch with the Earth. I think we have a deep relationship with God. It's all of the things that people are still searching for today. We just feel fully disconnected from it. And I think that's why these ancient sites are so appealing to people, you know, why people travel all over the world to see them. It. It creates a sense of wonder and awe in us that very few other things do.

[Chris]

Yeah. You know, I'm really fascinated by the Mayan civilization and the timeline of them, because that's another one that's really weird.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Like, the. The Mayan structures are so strange. I've. That's the only place that I've been. The only ancient place I've been is Chichen Ita. And when you're walking around, you just go, what were these people like? Like, what was it like living Here.

[Jamie]

Were you there when you could still climb it?

[Chris]

Yes.

[Jamie]

Yeah, me too.

[Chris]

Yeah. Yeah, we went in 90s.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

No, maybe early 2000s. Yeah, early 2000s. And it was stunning. It's weird. It feels weird.

[Jamie]

There's a lot of ancient stuff in Mexico. Yeah, the Olmec things are really mysterious. The Mayan structures, their myths, they're, you know, it's, it's old in southern Mexico.

[Chris]

Well, how about the Aztec stuff where they didn't even make those temples? That's what I didn't know. I didn't know that until fairly recently.

[Jamie]

I mean, it's no different than the Khmer in Cambodia.

[Chris]

Yeah, but at least they said it. Yeah, they said these are the place where the gods were born. That's how they described it. So we attribute those temples to the Aztecs. Yeah, but they, they were like. Nope. They were already here.

[Jamie]

Yep.

[Chris]

Okay, well then who.

[Jamie]

The Incas say the same thing. In Peru, we didn't build these. These were already here. But we don't listen to them. Like, you guys don't know what you're talking about. People wrote myths. Those are just stories.

[Chris]

Silly people.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

One of the things we talked about the other day was that there's a bunch of different cultures that have a timeline of the kings where they, they ruled for thousands and thousands of years.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Like one king ruled for thousands of years, and then you have the flood and then you have the ages of these people drops off pretty radically and then becomes a normal age. Like human beings.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

And we look at that and we go, oh, that. Well, that's just myth back then.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Until it's history. And it's the same texts, like in the same depictions of these kings, they have accepted dates, you know, the 5,000 year ago, 4,000 year ago kings. Well, yeah, that guy was real.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

But these other ones that lived for 3,600 years, no, that's not real.

[Jamie]

Same with the Jains. Like I was talking about earlier, there are 24 Tirthankaras. All 24 have lived according to the Jains. But archaeology has only recognized the last two of them because those were the only, you know, the timelines and their lifespans, that kind of fits. But when you talk about the way back days, that's just myth.

[Chris]

What do they say their timelines were?

[Jamie]

Oh, I mean, millions of years. And the, you know, the first earth in Kara was over a mile tall.

[Chris]

Oh, my God.

[Jamie]

You know, so it's just. But it's consistent across the world. The Jains talk about it, the Hindus, the Egyptians, the Sumerians, all the Bible, all of them talk about very long lifespans, giant statures. You know, is it. Is it coincidence that all of our ancient myths talk about the same things?

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Jamie]

Or might it have been true?

[Chris]

Yeah. Well, then there's the Book of Enoch, which is. Anna Paulina Luna turned me onto that. She's like, you got to read that. And I. I read it twice now. I'm like, this is the most bizarre depiction of a human story. The watchers came down and mated with the daughters of men and created the Nephilim, who were giants who destroyed and consumed everything and were wiped out by the Flood.

[Joe Rogan]

What?

[Jamie]

And the accepted biblical texts barely hint at that. They still talk about it, but the extra biblical canon talks. The stories are much more like the Book of Enoch. There's a reason, I think, that those were excluded from the Bible.

[Chris]

Well, they were excluded by rabbis.

[Jamie]

I know.

[Chris]

Because they didn't jive with the Torah, which is hilarious. Like, you get to just. They all were in the same caves in Qumran. Like the version of the Book of Enoch was in the same as the Book of Isaiah. They were all in the same scrolls.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

It was just like, what? How do you guys leave this out? Like, imagine if they taught that at church on Sunday. You'd be like, what are you saying?

[Jamie]

Yeah, you know, David and Goliath, the watchers. I think it's interesting that you can totally accept that David and Goliath is a real story and Goliath was a giant in the Bible. Yeah, right.

[Chris]

How tall was he supposed to be, though? Couldn't he be, like a really big guy from Iceland?

[Jamie]

I think he was described. They described. The way that the Hebrews described it is that they made them feel like grasshoppers. The giants, the Nephilim made them feel, you know, they were like, we are as if we are grasshoppers. So I think that they were meant to be very, very large.

[Chris]

It would be really nice if they found a Bigfoot somewhere.

[Jamie]

Oh, my. I love Bigfoot.

[Chris]

Not a Bigfoot. Not the animal. I mean, like a giant foot. Like a stone.

[Jamie]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Chris]

David and Goliath. So he was supposed to be 10ft tall. Often calculated as roughly 9 to 10ft tall. The thing about that is, like, you know, people are full of. And they can make up a story. The guy was so big, he was 10ft tall. But meanwhile, he could have been like the mountain from Game of Thrones.

[Jamie]

Totally.

[Chris]

Like a real person.

[Joe Rogan]

Yep. Six and a half feet tall.

[Jamie]

Any of our basketball players today who

[Chris]

says he was six and a half feet tall?

[Joe Rogan]

Scholars Sea Scrolls.

[Chris]

The Dead sea scrolls. So six cubits in a span, often calculated as roughly 9 to 10ft tall in the ancient Hebrew texts, Greek and Dead Sea Scrolls texts say four cubits in a span. So that's only six and a half to seven and a half feet tall, depending on how the cubit was defined. So that makes sense. So who knows?

[Jamie]

Nine to 10 is pretty big.

[Chris]

Yeah, nine, 10 is big. But if the Dead Sea Scrolls are correct, then it's only six and a half feet. So he's a basketball player.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

You know, that's not even a really tall one.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

You know, there's. Who's the biggest basketball player now? How tall are they?

[Joe Rogan]

There's a kid that's like 14, that's almost 8ft tall.

[Chris]

What?

[Joe Rogan]

I don't know if he's gonna make it to the NBA or anything, but

[Jamie]

just plop it in.

[Chris]

Oh, my God, that's so crazy. That's so big. So you gotta imagine, but you gotta imagine with technology. So they're working right now on life extension technology, and they've already figured out a way to reverse the age of skin cells, and they're on their path to being able to stop human aging and maybe potentially even reverse it if that technology becomes implemented.

[Joe Rogan]

Seven, nine. Now.

[Jamie]

Jeez.

[Joe Rogan]

20 years old, though. He's actually playing basketball, but jeez.

[Chris]

So he's bigger than Goliath by a lot. Goliath would talk shit about him, story about it. He got his ass kicked by a basketball player. But if you can imagine this technology being implemented in the future and then being refined and then getting to a point where they really have it mastered, you know, like, like we have, with so many medical interventions that we have today, you. You could get to a point where someone could live to a thousand years or several thousand years. And if you're the king, of course you're going to want that technology. And you're also going to be very protected so you're. You don't have to worry about dying in other ways unless somebody usurps you.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

So you can, like the Sumerian Kings list and some of these, like the Zep Tepe list, you look at that and you go, what, what are they saying? Like, why. Why was this guy 6,000 years old?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Chris]

How did he. How did he rule the country for 30,000 years? That sounds insane. Yeah, but it doesn't sound insane if they master biological aging, which is not impossible. It's not impossible. Not only is it not impossible. They're actively working on technology that's going to allow that to happen in our lifetime.

[Jamie]

You think it's going to happen in our life?

[Chris]

100, yeah. 100%. Yeah.

[Jamie]

Human quest for immortality.

[Chris]

Well, I don't think that's going to happen, but I think you're going to extend life, you're going to extend biological life in a significant manner. And maybe for the sake of looking at things through rose colored glasses, maybe that's a good thing.

[Jamie]

Yes.

[Chris]

Because one of the things about humans is we barely have enough time to figure out how much of life is bullshit.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

While you're wrapped up in it. And then if you have responsibilities, you get married, you have a family, you have a mortgage, you have a bunch of. There's no time to recognize how fruitless a lot of your thinking and behavior and how stupid a lot of the, the things that people concentrate on. But as you get older and older, you get better at it. I'm way better at it now than I was 20 years ago. Yeah, way better. Way better at life. I would imagine I'm going to be better still 20 years from now. Unless I'm decrepit. So 20 years from now I could be all worn out and like, you know, my back hurts, get off my lawn. You know, you get stupid.

[Jamie]

Not in my backyard.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Chris]

You get goofy. You get goofy because you get old and sad and you know, you're not healthy anymore. But if you were 80 years old and healthy, like a healthy 30 year

[Jamie]

old, you're wise at that point.

[Chris]

Well then you have immense amount of life experience.

[Jamie]

Totally.

[Chris]

And then if you live another hundred years on top of that, you go, oh my God, I was so stupid when I was 80. Back when I was 80, I thought I had it nailed. But now that I'm 180 now I

[Jamie]

see the question is if your lifespan is expected to be 200 years, then do you work until you're 160? So does it just expand the stages that we're all going through now and you just work longer?

[Chris]

Well, it depends on what work is. So if work is your love, why not, right?

[Joe Rogan]

Totally.

[Chris]

Yeah. It really depends on what work is. So if it's hard labor, that doesn't sound fun. I don't want to be an 800 year old roofer. It seems like, geez, my hands are.

[Jamie]

But if you're going to live to 1200 years, you've still got a long retirement.

[Chris]

Well, I think retirement's out the window. If you could stay healthy because the Whole idea of retirement is like, why are we retiring? We were retiring because we hate our jobs.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Okay, well, maybe if you loved your job, you wouldn't want to retire.

[Jamie]

Totally.

[Chris]

You know, George Carlin died on the road. He died in a hotel room, I think, in Las Vegas.

[Jamie]

You know, and you hear lots of stories of people working their entire careers retiring and then promptly dying.

[Chris]

Oh, yeah.

[Jamie]

Within six months, they have a heart attack and they die. And they had all these big plans and they just never see them through.

[Chris]

Yeah. They just feel like the end is near and that. That the. The creeping doom, the existential angst in the back of your head is probably contributing to a lot of your decay because you've kind of, like, checked out. You know, that happens a lot with spouses. You know, the husband dies and the wife dies shortly thereafter. My grandparents. My grandmother died, and my grandfather died within a year.

[Jamie]

Yeah. Yep. That's what happens when the woman dies first.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

Yeah. It's so much harder for the man to live without her.

[Chris]

Is it? Is it?

[Jamie]

Yeah, I think so.

[Chris]

Why is that?

[Jamie]

I mean, if you think of all the old widows, you know, the women live. My grandpa died 15 years ago, and my grandma's 93. She's still living. She's still going.

[Chris]

That's interesting.

[Jamie]

She knew how to cook for herself and clean and things like that. But had it been reversed, I'm not sure that he would have lived that long.

[Chris]

Maybe depends on the relationship. I've seen a lot of relationships with older couples where the woman becomes, like, the caretaker.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

I think dudes get dumber quicker when they get older.

[Jamie]

No comment.

[Chris]

They just worn out by the time they hit 80. You know, a lot of times the wife tells them things like, okay, you got. You're right, you're right. And then they just, like, fall into that role where the wife is in charge of everything.

[Jamie]

Have you seen the stats of the. The expected lifespan of a man that's married versus not married? No, Jamie, I don't know these off the top of my head, but they've done studies that talk about basically the lifespan extension that happens with men when they have a woman in their life.

[Chris]

Is it longer?

[Jamie]

Yes.

[Chris]

Interesting.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Well, then when there's no woman, then it's filled with cocaine and hookers. So that takes years off your life.

[Jamie]

And lots of burgers and beer. You know, you're not eating a salad.

[Chris]

Right. Loneliness is worse than cigarette smoking. They found that.

[Jamie]

Totally.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Loneliness is, like, one of the worst things that can happen to people, and it can you know, really, the term spirituality is. It's kind of tainted in a lot of ways because there's a lot of goofy people that use that. Like, I'm not religious, but I'm spiritual. The term, unfortunately, has, like, a stink to it. But there is a connection that we have to each other that's not as simple as we would like to think. Like, we need each other. We need each other in very profound ways. And it's. It's actually important for our survival.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

And that's why the worst thing they could do to you in prison is put you in solitary confinement.

[Jamie]

We are a pack animal.

[Chris]

Yeah. Yeah. We're. We're supposed to be connected to each other. And it's not a preference thing. That's why when someone says, like, I'm a loner, I'm like, okay, well, either you're the only one that's like that, or you're full of shit. Or you, like, you want to pretend you're mysterious. You like to be alone. Like, we, like, we attribute strength to that. Like, oh, he doesn't need anybody.

[Jamie]

And it's so hard now to build your tribe. You no longer live where your grandparents and your parents lived. You are out there on your own. You're spending hours on your phone. You have a community that you feel like is a community, but it's not. You don't have. You don't have a tribe anymore.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Chris]

And then people find their own tribes, and usually they're political. Yeah, yeah. They get ideological or religious.

[Jamie]

You know, you want to fit in.

[Chris]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's what we do. I mean, that's why when you see so many people that are religious devotees, like, why are they willing to do that? Why are they willing to wear those clothes? Why are they willing to act that way? Well, it's because everyone's doing it, and you want to be a part of it. And there's like some. Some good feeling of community to where everyone's kneeling at the same time and saying the same things. There's something to that that, like, is very profound, totally with human beings. And if it's directed in the wrong way, it could be incredibly destructive. But it's directed in the right way. If it. If it's real ceremony and real worship and real openness to the cosmos and to. To God and to spirituality, like, real, true, real connection, real connection with the universe, then it's probably a lot better than the way we're doing it 1,000%.

[Jamie]

I think that's why the psychedelics are coming back in such a huge way. It's people accessing that part of themselves that have been shut down their whole lives.

[Chris]

Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up, because I think that's the missing element, and I think that's what probably was very prevalent in the ancient times. And this is the work of Brian Murarescu. I'm sure you do you know about his stuff, the immortality key. Did you read that book?

[Jamie]

Yes, I did.

[Chris]

So he. I actually got super fortunate that my family and I were in Greece when he was going to be in Greece. And so I got a tour of Ulysses with him. He took me there, and he showed me all the different places. And it feels so strange. It feels so strange. Like, you're. You're standing in the place where these people had these Eleusinian mystery ceremonies, and it just feels weird. Like, my family got a little weirded out because I was, like, holding on to. I was like, did it feel good? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely good. Like.

[Jamie]

Like a connection.

[Chris]

It felt fucking strange.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Like, I was holding on. I was. I had my hand on this wall, and my daughter was like, are you okay? I'm like, I'm fine. I'm fine, I'm fine. I'm just. I don't want to talk right now. I just want to, like. Yeah, sit here and try to soak this in. Like, is daddy upset? Like, no, no, no, no. Not upset. Your dad's just, like, holding a rock.

[Jamie]

It's a little destabilizing for a child.

[Chris]

I know. Like, this, Daddy. Okay. They thought it was cool, too, but, you know, it's hard when you're 13 or 12. It's hard to, like, go, oh, my God, what a special place. They're like, yep, old, old stuff. What are we eating?

[Jamie]

Rocks. Cool.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Like, we took them to the museum in Athens, and one of my daughters loves museums. The other ones, like, couldn't be bothered. She's, like, bored by it all. But I was like, this is crazy. Like, These people lived 2000 years ago, and they made this stuff. Like, you know how nuts this is? Like, how did they do this? Like, what were they doing? Like, what was this society like? Like, this is to be able to just see this, the work of people that they've left behind, and to just imagine the amount of time that's taken place. And then you put yourself back into that timeline. Like, we just assume that this way. That we are. This is how people are, because this is how people are today. It's so hard to put Your mind into like what it's like and what it must have been like to live back then.

[Jamie]

If you go to places. Earlier this year I went to Easter island and Peru and both of them are described as the navels of the world. You know, so they have these, these origin myths in both of these places. And when you're in these places, you have different dreams. You sleep really well, you feel just good, you feel like you're on peptides, you know, you just feel, you're like, oh my gosh, I feel so healthy. I feel healed. And you. So the, the land itself, where they built a lot of these ancient places is powerful. You know, I don't, I don't think it's a coincidence that we see the Moai in Easter island built around this absolutely incredible place or Cusco, which is such a beautiful place that you see these stone walls. I think that they built there because of the energy that was there already.

[Chris]

What do you think was before that? And like, what is this timeline? How far does it go back? Like what is the origin of sophisticated civilization? Like what is the year? When does it all start happening?

[Jamie]

I wonder sometimes if the purpose of building structures like that is. So people like you ask those questions. That's the whole point. Well, maybe is to, is to blow our minds and get us to think about consciousness and the history of our species. The fact that we're sitting there having this conversation is because of the stones that were built who knows how long ago. And maybe that was the point.

[Chris]

It certainly could have been a part of the point. Because what we're doing today, when we talk about our society being sick and superficial and silly, all of our structures

[Jamie]

are temporary and they're ugly.

[Chris]

Well, some of them are cool looking. I think some of them are cool. Some of them, yeah, they're cool. They're certainly not Angkor Wat cool. Yeah, you know, they're cool. But the point is like they're all essentially temporary. A thousand years from now, none of them will exist. They will all be absorbed by the earth. That's hard for people to understand. If you're walking through Manhattan like, this will always be here. Nope, nope, nope. It won't. It won't. If everybody just left and you came back 5,000 years from now, there wouldn't be here.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

So then it leads me to this question. The timeline that we're looking at, if you're looking at pre flood timeline, you know, 11, 12,000 years ago, things are sophisticated. Maybe it's way longer than that. Because if you have A hundred thousand years of super sophisticated civilization. What. What is the. That look like? What do people look like then? And this is one of the things that people are proposing when they look at anatomically modern human beings. So anatomically modern human beings and then not these Peru skulls, but whatever just you and I are, they've pushed that back now to 1 million years. So, okay, why did it take so long before people just like you and I figured out agriculture, figured out civilization, figured out cities?

[Jamie]

What were we doing that whole time?

[Chris]

What. What was going on? And is it possible that it's just when you go back that far, you don't find anything? You don't find anything that seems more likely to me. And when you look at the immense erosion that Ben Van Kirkwood has pointed out to the really, the older stones in Egypt, where you can clearly see they've built on top of them on the outside, and you see this intense erosion, like this is tens of thousands of years of erosion. Well, what if it's 100,000? What the fuck is left? What if it's 200,000?

[Jamie]

What's left from 100,000 years ago? Maybe some stones, myths and spiritual traditions or 10,000 years ago, that's the only thing that makes it through cataclysms, the human stories, spiritual traditions, and these megalithic

[Chris]

stones and a real cataclysm. If you're talking about the destruction of civilization itself, how many of those people even know the stories? How many live, how many scholars survive the apocalypse? How many? I mean, we know that 70,000 years ago, the Toba volcano, the super volcano, wiped people out down to the point with less than 100,000 people on Earth just 70,000 years ago.

[Jamie]

Right?

[Chris]

Hundred thousand people.

[Jamie]

We have been on the brink so many times.

[Chris]

Can you imagine, like, one Eagles football game? Right? Take that crowd. That's the entire population of Earth now.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Chris]

One packed UT game. That's everybody on Earth. And now we have to branch out and go to China and go to Africa and go everywhere. That's all the people on Earth.

[Jamie]

That just shows how amazing and resilient we are.

[Chris]

Yeah, and also fragile.

[Jamie]

Yes.

[Chris]

You know, and also it really shines a light on the preposterous nature of the conventional timeline. It really does, because it's like, look, guys, there's so much evidence that there's holes in the story. At what point in time do you stop and say, look, a lot of these people did great work, and they made these conclusions based on the understanding that they had at the time. But as time has Gone on. There's come a point where we have to reevaluate this. And if you don't reevaluate it, you're going to lose all the respect of the people that are paying attention. Because there's too many people that are looking at this and saying, hey, no one's discounting or discrediting your work. No one's saying you're a bad person. You know, no one's saying you're an idiot. It's like, this is what we knew back then. But to say that this is all we know. And any new information, as profound as it might be, like 1.2 kilometer structures underneath the great pyramids, like that doesn't mean that you're an idiot. It just means that this is an ongoing thing. It's not done. We haven't figured it out yet, and we're not going to for a long ass time. This is a long trek. And as LIDAR improves and as the radio tomography and all these different things that they come up with, and then imagine the advances 10, 20, 30 years from now in their ability to look like. Look at sub Saharan Africa.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Very little expeditions been done there. And they're like, what?

[Jamie]

Let's light our sub Saharan Africa.

[Chris]

There's whales there.

[Jamie]

I've seen the whales.

[Chris]

Whales, yeah.

[Jamie]

Okay, so they're incredible.

[Chris]

What the fuck? You find whales in the desert. Okay, what else is out there? Yeah, is there a city under all that shit? Like, what is that? Like what? What is in there?

[Jamie]

You know, it's funny though, you can reveal cities under the jungle and nobody talks about it.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Jamie]

You know what's recent? They just did that in Cambodia and it's not headline news around the world that there are entire cities being found in the Amazon jungle or in Cambodia. It just is one quick headline and then everybody ignores it.

[Chris]

Well, it's good for us because it gives us great podcast content, you know what I mean? Because like, it's the only way people could find out about it. And again, it's science. The LIDAR scans of the Amazon are spectacular, incredible. And you look at it and you go, oh my God, there was probably millions of people living here. This is not like a bunch of tribal people that are shooting bows and arrows all the time.

[Jamie]

They were engineering the rainforest

[Chris]

and it just. The fact that more people aren't talking about this is a little stunning to me. But I just think they don't get informed. And then they also assume, you know, you see some YouTube headline that's got big fancy font and, you know, people are older than we think. Like, oh, go on. I went to Cambridge.

[Joe Rogan]

Fuck off.

[Jamie]

And you have a lot of AI stuff out there that's just complete bogus.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

So it's hard to know what. What the truth is.

[Joe Rogan]

Sure.

[Chris]

And there's a lot of weird stuff, like the Sage wall in Montana. I've watched some videos on that. I'm not convinced. I think that might be a weird geological formation.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

But it doesn't look like it. Parts of it really look like it's stacked stones.

[Jamie]

I think that, you know, during the Ice Age in North America, it was an extremely harsh time with walls of ice. Right. So if. If the Younger Dryas happened the way that I believe it happened, North America would have been just almost wiped clean. You know, if. So if there were ancient structures here, they probably didn't survive the way that they did in Egypt and other places like that.

[Chris]

Certainly not under the glaciers. Right.

[Joe Rogan]

I just found.

[Chris]

What'd you find?

[Joe Rogan]

I see the middle of the desert here. Yeah. I'm gonna zoom in. Desert, desert, desert, desert, desert. Right. Right until.

[Chris]

Whoa.

[Joe Rogan]

An ancient fortress.

[Jamie]

How old is it?

[Joe Rogan]

Updraw.

[Jamie]

How old do they say it is?

[Joe Rogan]

No one knows what it is. What? Yeah, they're assuming that maybe as a hiding place for Jews when they're being persecuted and taken out of there. But according to this, no explanation. It's just in the middle of the desert.

[Chris]

Whoa.

[Jamie]

Sand, straw and clay.

[Joe Rogan]

Whoa. Just like, look at the dunes. Imagine if it didn't just blow.

[Chris]

Imagine deciding to build there in the middle of nowhere.

[Jamie]

Why did they build?

[Joe Rogan]

Or what else is around it? You know, what's hiding underneath next to it?

[Chris]

God. What did it look like when it was first built? And what is it made out of? Sand, stone. What is it made of?

[Jamie]

It said sand and clay, which means it's probably. It probably is newer.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

My point was, like, it's hiding under the desert and then just in the middle of nowhere. And no one. I've never heard of it being brought up on here by anybody.

[Jamie]

One big sandstorm and that thing's gone right buried.

[Chris]

Look at all the sand. Well, the crazy thing is, think that that sand was all jungle and before that it was ocean.

[Jamie]

I know.

[Chris]

It's so insane.

[Jamie]

Seeing the whales in the middle of the desert is a surreal experience.

[Chris]

Surreal. Have you seen them in person?

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Oh, yeah. What is that? Like, how close they let you get?

[Jamie]

Oh, you just walk right up to them. There's just, like, little rocks on the ground outlining the skeletons. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Wow.

[Jamie]

But it's. You know, when we were driving out there, they had security concerns, so we had a security car in front of ours, then ours and one behind us.

[Chris]

Look how bonkers that is.

[Jamie]

Yeah. It looks like dragons. It's just otherworldly. It's so neat.

[Chris]

That's so crazy.

[Jamie]

It's a long drive, though. It's like a whole day.

[Chris]

Well, the dragons thing is a weird one.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Because there's. This is one of the things that the view made fun of me of. It said he believes in dragons. Joy Behar was saying that. So I put. I changed all of the headings of my social media account, Dragon believer. Because, like, that's so funny.

[Jamie]

You and millions of other people around the world and almost every ancient civilization believed in dragons.

[Chris]

It's very odd. It's very odd that they all have this story of these ancient serpents, but also, they were really bad at their depictions of actual things. And one of the things that I pointed out to Jamie was when I visited Italy a few years ago, I went to this really old church, and they had this stone mosaic artwork that was of Noah. And was it Noah and the whale? No, Jonah. Jonah. Jonah and the whale. I think that's what it was. But this whale does not look like a whale. It looks really weird. It's this really weird looking thing that's supposed to represent a whale. Why? Because they never saw a whale. So, like, they're. They're making their own version of what, from the stories. Right?

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

See if you find that. I know. It's on my Instagram. Super old. I think it was probably 10 years ago, but whatever the fuck that is. Like, okay, that's how they. That's it. Like, look at that thing. Isn't that dope?

[Jamie]

That doesn't look like a whale.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Chris]

At all.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Jamie]

But looks like a griffin.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Chris]

It looks like some kind of a monster that lives in the ocean. So this is like their version of describing what a whale looks like.

[Joe Rogan]

Right?

[Chris]

So when they're describing dragons, like, what are they really describing? Do they actually fly? Or we. Are we talking about, like, crocodiles? Like, what are we talking about? Are we talking about, like, some sort of extinct dinosaurs that survived and then, you know, they only made it for a few thousand years ago because there's things that we know existed during the human timeline that they just don't exist anymore? They went extinct?

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

You know, giant sloths, for instance. There's a bunch of North American animals, 65%, in fact, of all North American megafauna didn't make it after the Younger Dryas impact.

[Joe Rogan]

Yep.

[Chris]

So what is, what is the serpent? What is the dragon like? What, why is, why did China have one? Why does Japan have one? Why does Eastern European have one? Why does so many ancient cultures talk about this one specific thing?

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

And the Bible references it like 34 times.

[Jamie]

What's interesting though is in most of the ancient civilizations, the serpents or the dragons are meant to be guardian figures. Right. So they were presented in a positive light, they weren't evil. But in the Bible the serpent is actually the trickster, you know, so it's one of the only traditions in the ancient world where the serpent is. It's suggested that the serpent is evil

[Chris]

in front of, in that depiction.

[Jamie]

Yeah, he tricked Eve. But in front of all of the temples in Cambodia there are giant Naga, which is like the seven or nine headed snakes. And they guard the liminal space between the outside world and the temples. So that, that's their purpose. Right. When you see a Naga, it means you're entering, you're entering a temple, you're entering the zone of the gods. So it was always positive. Except for in ancient Christianity, the King

[Joe Rogan]

James version is the version that says dragon, but it's probably a translation issue maybe.

[Chris]

Ah, interesting. So sea monster, serpent translated in many modern versions has jackal, sea creature or monster, depending on the context. But dragon often renders Hebrew terms like tannin, which is a sea monster. Serpent, interesting.

[Jamie]

Fire breathing reptiles.

[Chris]

But it's just like, what were they? Like why were there so many versions of this? Was that a real thing and is it a real thing from 11,000 years ago? Is it a real thing from 20,000 years ago, 50,000 years ago? And again, when, when it comes to the fossil record, like how much evidence would there be of that thing existing?

[Jamie]

Right.

[Chris]

They didn't even find dinosaurs until like what, the 1700s or something, right? Yeah, whenever it was. And then there's a lot of people that think dinosaurs are fake, which is fun.

[Jamie]

There's all sorts of rabbit holes you can go down.

[Chris]

Well, they have a point in that a lot of what you go to see in the museum is not an actual dinosaur skeleton. It's a recreation.

[Jamie]

Totally.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Because the actual skeletons are probably somewhere else. That is a fact. And then it's also the fact that they take like portions of it and then they recreate what's missing and then create a skeleton.

[Jamie]

Make a lot of assumptions.

[Chris]

Yeah, there's a lot of assumptions, yeah. Well, this is why in the, the science museum in Bozeman, Montana. We talked about this before. I went there with my kids once and they have a raptor. And on one side of the raptor, it's what we think of like from Jurassic park, that it had like scaly skin like a lizard, and the other side, it's covered in feathers. The bird, which is. Yeah. This is the alternative perspective.

[Joe Rogan]

This is Gus. The most complete dinosaur. T Rex Skeleton 61 complete and it is for sale right now.

[Chris]

Oh, how much does that cost?

[Joe Rogan]

You Want to guess?

[Jamie]

20 million.

[Chris]

No, no, more, more.

[Joe Rogan]

You're taking. It's. The bids are going up.

[Chris]

80 million.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, I mean, that's the. I think the expected is somewhere in the 65 to 80 million range.

[Chris]

Whoa. And 60 complete.

[Joe Rogan]

61. Yeah.

[Chris]

So that means you're getting 39 when you buy it.

[Joe Rogan]

I don't. I think they've just left some of it out. I don't know that they filled it in.

[Chris]

Oh, okay. So that's what's left. That's actually what's. So there's some stuff missing.

[Jamie]

Doesn't look his little arms.

[Chris]

He does. They're right there.

[Joe Rogan]

See, there's some.

[Chris]

Okay. Some stuff. Some ribs and shit.

[Joe Rogan]

That looks pretty.

[Chris]

I don't know, it looks pretty complete. That looks pretty complete. That's sick. There was a house that I looked at that was for sale in Malibu once. And in the house they. It came with a dinosaur. If you paid an extra million dollars, you get to keep the dinosaur.

[Jamie]

Really?

[Chris]

Yeah. They had a raptor skeleton.

[Jamie]

That seems expensive.

[Chris]

It was a little high. A little high? Well, the house was a little high. It was. It's probably worth 50 bucks now. Nobody wants to live there.

[Jamie]

I think a lot of times about what it would feel like to be hunting, hunted from the sky. Right. The pterodactyls.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

Sometimes you'll be hiking in the desert and you'll see a. You know, a hawk will fly over you and you'll get that shadow.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

And just imagine if it's just this massive hunter just coming for you. There's nothing you can do.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Chris]

When did those die off, too?

[Joe Rogan]

Gus has some bite marks on his ribs.

[Chris]

Whoa. That's crazy. I wonder if that's postmortem fossilized bite marks. Yeah.

[Jamie]

That could have been somebody scavenging them.

[Chris]

Yeah, could have been. So, trinity. So the. So it's valued between 20 million and 30 million. The highest pre sale estimate ever placed on dinosaur at auction.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, I think there's already some higher bids than that though. Currently.

[Chris]

I bet there's A lot of dorks out there with a lot of money want that in their house next week.

[Jamie]

People love to touch history.

[Chris]

Yeah, Elon's probably gonna have that at SpaceX.

[Jamie]

Oh, do you want to touch some history?

[Chris]

Yeah, sure. Yeah.

[Jamie]

Okay. I brought you a little show and tell.

[Chris]

Okay, exciting.

[Jamie]

So I grew up in western Nebraska on a giant corn farm. This is called a Jimmy Allen point. This is 9,500 years old.

[Chris]

Whoa.

[Jamie]

It's a spear point. So it was being chipped, basically, when Gobekli Tepe was at the height of its building.

[Chris]

Wow.

[Jamie]

8,500 to 9,500 years old. My grandpa had a load of rock delivered to his house and that was in it. So they would dredge this, this river rock from the rivers, the Platte river, and deliver it to your house. And he found that in his yard.

[Chris]

Holy shit.

[Jamie]

Isn't that an incredible experience? That's to touch it.

[Chris]

That's amazing. I don't know how old this one is, but this is from here.

[Jamie]

Oh, yes. That's a pretty good one.

[Chris]

This is actually better. This one's really good.

[Jamie]

That one's substantially older than this.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

I Bet this is 2000 years old. That one's almost 10.

[Chris]

That's crazy.

[Jamie]

So I'm going to show you something else. It's just a part of one, but this is part of a Folsom point, which is 12,700 years old. So that was definitely created to hunt something that's extinct. Now you can see the flute up the middle and look at the work on the sides of it.

[Joe Rogan]

Wow,

[Chris]

that's crazy.

[Jamie]

It's the most incredible stonework. And you see that over time it went from Clovis to Folsom and then down the line to points like this. And it just, you know, became. Yeah, so those are. This would have looked like that if it was full.

[Joe Rogan]

Wow.

[Jamie]

You're seeing the central flute on this one. But both of these were found out on my farm.

[Chris]

That's pretty amazing.

[Jamie]

Yeah. I saw you talking to Taylor Sheridan about arrowheads and I thought to myself, I wonder if Joe would like to hold a 9,500-year-old spear point.

[Chris]

Well, I did love it.

[Joe Rogan]

Thank you.

[Chris]

Thank you for letting me hold that. That's pretty dope. It's pretty incredible, too, when you think about the history of North America. That when Europe and China and all these other parts of the world had developed sophisticated civilizations and machines and all these different things, these people were living a very nomadic, hunter gatherer life, like essentially in the Stone Age. All the way up to the 16, 1700s, until.

[Jamie]

Except for some of the mounds. So some of the mound structures, like in Louisiana, I think Those are about 9,000 years old, I believe. And those are massive platforms. Right. Like earthworks that are almost at least unexplainable for why they would have built them. And that was pretty old. I don't. I don't think any of them have been dated to pre flood.

[Chris]

So this is post flood, whoever was here. So if people lived here. So The White Sands, New Mexico footprints are all pre flood.

[Jamie]

That's 23,000. Yep.

[Chris]

One thing that's interesting is those people are barefoot. Right. So the question is, like, what was sophisticated civilization like in North America then? Because it seems like North America in particular because of the fact that up until 11,000 years ago was covered in ice. Most of North America was covered in like a mile high of ice. Right. It's so hard for us to think Chicago, gone.

[Jamie]

Can you imagine?

[Chris]

Yeah, gone. Montana, gone. Yeah, everything's gone. Colorado, gone.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Everything's completely covered in a mile of ice. And then 11,000 years ago, it all goes away real quick. And then you have the Great Lakes. Yeah. Which is so strange. And then if you look at Randall Carlson's done an amazing job of like, sort of illuminating, like what kind of a mass of water it would have sent rushing through the entire country. Yeah. At the time that these things were almost instantaneously melted. Like how insane that must have been if huge asteroidal impacts slammed into these ice caps.

[Joe Rogan]

Here's what two miles of ice looks like next to a city.

[Chris]

Oh, my God. That's so crazy that everything that we see when you drive through Kansas and Nebraska and Iowa, all that was under all that.

[Jamie]

Yeah. My husband's from north Idaho, and you can see all of the ancient remains of these lakes. You know, these ice dams that burst.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

Just float over the landscape. And I think Randall Carlson is especially gifted in describing these events, making it real for us.

[Chris]

Well, he's obsessed and he spent so much. When I met him, I met him in Georgia, I did a show in Atlanta, and I met him like 2005 or something like that. And he was explaining it to me back then, and I had never heard that before. I was like, what? That was my first introduction to the Younger Dries impact theory. And that's when it started putting all the pieces together. Okay. Well, that's what ended civilization. That's the. And that. And now that we know that that's a real event because of core samples, because the. You Know, they've been fine. They find layers of iridium, which is very common in space, very rare on Earth, and these micro diamonds that appear when you have impacts.

[Jamie]

The black mat. Yeah.

[Chris]

They know that it happened. So some big events happened. I think they think 11,800 years ago and then I think again like 10,000 years ago. They think it happened more than once.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Would kind of make sense that it took so long for civilization to re. Emerge.

[Jamie]

Yeah. And the question is, did that civilization that was alive at the time know that it was coming?

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Jamie]

And what did they do to prepare?

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Chris]

Or could they have even.

[Jamie]

And did they know that probably the only thing that was going to be left after that is stone? So what is encoded in that stone for us to read today?

[Chris]

Yeah, that's the weirdness of things like Egypt. When you look at the pyramids and the dimensions and how the dimensions align with the, you know, the dimensions of Earth and the distances to the moon and. Yeah, it's all. The whole thing's very weird. It's very weird.

[Jamie]

It doesn't seem like coincidence.

[Chris]

No.

[Jamie]

It seems like they knew exactly what they were doing. And what is the, you know, the one language that's going to survive? Geometry, math. Right. Astrology.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Chris]

It's universal.

[Jamie]

Stones are the things that are going to survive. Myths. Right. So it's messages being passed down to us today. And now people are looking and paying attention and just. It's a complete obsession for me. I don't know how anybody thinks of anything else besides ancient history.

[Chris]

Once I get into it, I feel the same way.

[Jamie]

It's amazing.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

I mean, it's too amazing.

[Chris]

It's certainly a puzzle. And if it wasn't for people like you and other people that are doing similar things, most people would be very blissfully unaware of how nuts the actual physical history of the Earth is.

[Jamie]

Yeah. Yep. And you know, until recently a lot of this, first of all, people couldn't travel around the world. They couldn't, they couldn't read scripts that weren't in their language. Archaeologists were exploring sites and their papers were going to the universities. And so we didn't have the opportunity to see these global patterns the way that we do now. To link. Okay. I see the same thing in Egypt that I see in India. Like this thousand ton statue is in India and it's also in Egypt. What about these walls? They're the same. I don't think it was as easy to do that back in the day. You know, even the people that were deep into the research in Egypt in the 1800s. They weren't traveling to Peru. So we are at a very unique time in history where we can look across all of it, especially in the next 10 years when we're leveraging AI and other technologies from space based scanning or whatever. I think it's going to fundamentally change the way that we view the history of the world.

[Chris]

I think so, too. And so thank you. Thank you for being here. Thank you for your channel and thank you for all your interest in this because it's absolutely fascinating.

[Jamie]

Thank you for having me on. This was. Is so fun.

[Chris]

My pleasure. Let's do it again.

[Jamie]

Okay. We'd love that. All right.

[Joe Rogan]

Thank you.

[Chris]

Bye, everybody.