#2534 - Annie Jacobsen

Summary

THE JOE ROGAN EXPERIENCE #2534 Guest: Annie Jacobsen | Date: July 31, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Joe Rogan welcomes investigative journalist and author Annie Jacobsen to discuss her latest book Biological War, which explores the existential threats posed by biological weapons, gain-of-function research, pandemics, and the government's secret plans for catastrophic events. Their conversation weaves through the real-world dangers of engineered pathogens, the legacy of COVID-19, government secrecy, the instability created by political polarization, and even touches on nuclear war, societal collapse, and the ongoing UFO debate.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Biological War Is Terrifying

• The episode opens with Jacobsen explaining her motivation for tackling "biological war" after her previous work on "nuclear war" ([19:53], [21:30]).
• She details how biological disaster planning is focused not just on disease, but the panic and anarchy that follow ([22:30], [24:07]).

2. Biological Weapons: More Sinister Than Nuclear?

• Rogan and Jacobsen compare nuclear threats to biological, arguing that in a nuclear attack, "at least... you're just gone in a flash," while biological leads to slow chaos and collapse ([00:36]).
• Jacobsen: “Bio...is a completely different animal because what they’re really worried about is the secondary effect of panic and anarchy.” ([22:30])

3. Gain-of-Function Research & Lab Leaks

• In-depth discussion of gain-of-function research: the modification of viruses to increase their transmissibility or deadliness, often justified as necessary to develop cures ([02:28], [07:06], [09:18]).
• Both question the logic and ethics of such work, arguing its risks outweigh the theoretical benefits ([09:18], [10:32]).
• Jacobsen asserts: “Most of the people I talked to said gain of function is a euphemism for biological weapons engineering. Period. Full stop.” ([07:05])

4. COVID-19, Fauci, and Political Fallout

• Rogan and Jacobsen dissect the political response to COVID-19, including Dr. Fauci’s congressional testimony and "blanket pardon," the suppression of lab leak theories, and the stifling of dissent among scientists ([02:51], [05:56], [06:45]).
• Joe: “...if they stepped outside of, of Fauci's jurisdiction and power, they were fucked.” ([95:04])
• They discuss the continued lack of clarity about COVID-19's origins and whether institutions can be trusted ([04:18], [18:44], [86:21]).

5. Suppressing Dissent and the Dangers of Ideology

• Both critique how political identity and “team” ideology trump facts during crises ([12:28], [86:21]).
• Jacobsen: "The real issue is what happens if someone does get...if a pathogen gets seeded in the community and an outbreak starts to move to an epidemic?...the point is not panic. It's pressure. Pressure to understand the threat." ([70:24])

6. U.S. Catastrophe Response: Continuity Plans & Bunkers

• Jacobsen reveals details of the U.S. government's devolution and "continuity of government" plans in the event of domestic collapse ([25:18], [25:30]).
• She breaks down the hierarchy of DEFCON and COGCON, and the concept of "devolution crews" who would rebuild from bunkers ([25:40]).
• "There's a plan called the Devolution plan...you send your devolution crews out...to a hot site, warm site or cold site, underground bunkers located around the United States." ([25:40])

7. The Ease of Bioweapon Access

• The episode examines how the proliferation of BSL-3 and BSL-4 labs—up from 2 before 9/11 to over 1500 in the U.S.—raises the risk of leaks, accidents, or deliberate attacks ([64:53], [65:06]).
• Jacobsen delivers a chilling insight: “...the barrier to entry in the biological weapons field is so incredibly low, it’s horrifying...a high school student with limited knowledge of biology can make a bioweapon in their basement...” ([66:10])

8. Real-Life Scenarios: Al Qaeda’s Bioweapons, Rabies Experiments

• Discussion of captured terrorist Afia Siddiqui’s plan to make genetically modified rabies-chickenpox hybrid ([42:12], [43:16]), confirming near-catastrophes are not fictional.

9. Societal Collapse & Who Survives?

• Jacobsen summarizes Pentagon war games: critical focus is on maintaining infrastructure and “mitigating extermination”—not saving everyone ([48:04], [49:13]).
• The aftermath plans prioritize continuity by protecting select personnel, not the public at large ([49:24]).

10. Lessons from COVID Misinformation

• Rogan and Jacobsen revisit pandemic blunders: official misinformation about airborne transmission, the profit link between CDC and Lysol, and the mixed messages about masks ([80:50], [83:32]).
• Jacobsen: “Covid was airborne. That is how we all got Covid...Instead they said...you get Covid from, like, touching surfaces...We now know that 1 in 10,000 cases of COVID was transmitted from a surface. How can they have gotten it so wrong?” ([80:50])

11. Biological Warfare Policy, Treaties, and Loopholes

• Jacobsen traces the history of bioweapon treaties—Soviets’ secret violations, U.S. shift to “prophylactic” research after 9/11, and the global boom of labs under the guise of public health ([60:47], [62:01], [63:00]).

12. The Next Threat: AI-Enabled Bioengineering

• Jacobsen describes a new frontier: AI tools like ChatGPT’s potential to locate sensitive sites and enable bioweapon design ([130:45], [131:06]).
• “Sam Altman did not know you could figure out you could make his product find classified information. I told him I did, and then it was changed.” ([133:08])

13. Reflection: Are Good People Powerless?

• Jacobsen maintains faith in good public servants, despite how a few in power can derail entire systems ([108:02]).

14. Other Topics

• Nuclear war planning, survivor stigma in Hiroshima ([53:09]), militarism and the "warrior class" in the U.S. ([57:09]), bunkers and underground city analogies ([29:06], [31:01]), the resilience of conspiracy and disinformation as social realities ([92:45], [96:41]), and the shifting public attitude toward UFOs ([120:17]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Gain of function is a euphemism for biological weapons engineering. Period. Full stop.”
  — Annie Jacobsen ([07:06])
• “We have to actually make a weapon to be able to defeat a weapon. That's actually what is being said.”
  — Annie Jacobsen ([09:18])
• "Their real fear is worrying about the aftermath, worrying about chaos in the streets, rioting, looting. That's the real fear." — Joe Rogan ([24:07])
• “In the event of a catastrophic biological incident, there is very little you can do to protect the homeland. Only things you can do to mitigate extermination of the human race.”
  — Annie Jacobsen quoting Pentagon source ([49:13])
• "If you change it around and you say they were conspiring. It doesn't have the same stink. Right." — Annie Jacobsen ([96:59])
• “...if society completely collapses and anarchy just sweeps the nation and you've got cities on fire and people killing people and looting, eventually there’s going to be no infrastructure...What are these people in the bunker going to do? Are they going to reinvent society?”
  — Joe Rogan ([46:50])
• On AI company power: “I am actually listening to the new reality that the CEOs of these AI companies have more power to make decisions about technology than the Department of Defense.”
  — Annie Jacobsen ([130:12])
• “Every time I talk to you, I’m fucking terrified.”
  — Joe Rogan ([00:14])

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Important Timestamps

• 00:14 – Rogan admits Jacobsen’s work always terrifies him.
• 07:06 – “Gain of function is biological weapons engineering.”
• 19:53 – Why Jacobsen wrote Biological War.
• 25:30 – “Devolution plan” and continuity of government explained.
• 49:13 – The focus is on "mitigating extermination" post-bio-attack.
• 64:53 – U.S. now has over 1,500 BSL-3 labs; proliferation and dangers.
• 66:10 – “Barrier to entry” for bioweapons is lower than ever.
• 80:50 – How COVID-19 misinformation/uncertainty raised public anxiety.
• 130:12 – CEOs of AI companies may have more control than the DoD.

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Tone & Language

• The episode is dense, urgent, and heavily skeptical of institutions.
• Jacobsen balances optimism about information-sharing with deep alarm at systemic risks and the unintended consequences of secrecy and self-interest.
• Rogan serves as both curious interviewer and advocate for plainspoken skepticism, frequently punctuating with expletives and incredulity.

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Takeaways

• The threat of catastrophic bio-events, whether accidental or deliberate, is alarmingly real and poorly understood by the public.
• Institutions—scientific, governmental, media—struggle with transparency, political bias, and conflicting incentives during crisis.
• The ease of engineering or unleashing deadly pathogens has increased; accountability and safeguards lag behind.
• Lessons from the COVID pandemic remain unresolved, and future crises could prove even more destabilizing.
• Vigilance, honest public discourse, and broad-based pressure for transparency are, according to Jacobsen, the best hope for mitigating future disasters.

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"Biological War" by Annie Jacobsen is now available in print and audiobook. Prepare to be terrified—and, hopefully, informed.

Transcript

[Annie Jacobson]

Joe Rogan podcast.

[Joe Rogan]

Check it out.

[Annie Jacobson]

The Joe Rogan experience. Train my day. Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. Come here.

[Joe Rogan]

Scared.

[Joe]

Biological war. Oh, boy. Every time I talk to you, I'm fucking terrified.

[Annie Jacobson]

That is my part time job just to actually scare Joe Rogan. If I can do that. Wow.

[Joe]

Yeah. Every time I talk to you, I'm like, oh, no. Last time it was nuclear war. Oh, no. Now it's biological war. Oh, no.

[Annie Jacobson]

Which is actually maybe even grimmer than nuclear, because at least in nuclear, you're just like gone in the flash.

[Joe]

I did a show a while back on the Sci Fi Network called Joe Rogan Questions Everything. And one of the episodes we did was about biological war. And so we spoke to this guy who used to work for Russia during the Cold War, and he was talking about how much anthrax they had and how much work they had done on biological weapons. And it was terrifying. He said they had like just giant vats of anthrax, like enough to kill everyone in New York City.

[Annie Jacobson]

They were mil. Was it Ken Alabec?

[Joe]

Do you know he was Russian.

[Annie Jacobson]

Russian, yeah. There was a couple of those Russian defector scientists who came here and told us everything they were doing. There was like, you know, tons of anthrax and plague.

[Joe Rogan]

Plague.

[Annie Jacobson]

That's actually the pathogen that I use in the scenario I write is plague. Because it's so crazy scary, so dangerous. Sits at the top of the government's Tier 1 Select Agent of dangerous pathogens.

[Joe]

So one of the things that we did during this episode, we went to Galveston to, I guess it's a CDC lab that they had there. So they have these super thick walls and everyone's wearing spacesuits and they have these tubes attached to them. And they were studying all these different really horrible fatal diseases. And I'm like, well, what if this stuff gets out? Like, it's right here. Like, what happens if it gets out? Like, will we take every precaution? This and that. But his concern, he said, was not for genetically engineered viruses. His fear was really just from natural virus. He says that is just as scary as anything that's out there.

[Annie Jacobson]

This is the Russian Scient.

[Joe]

No, this is a different guy. This is an American scientist.

[Annie Jacobson]

Yeah. I think they like to say that, you know, mother Nature is just as powerful. But in truth, that's actually not true. Because think about what you can do with genetic modification. Make it more virulent, more transmissible.

[Joe]

Yes.

[Annie Jacobson]

And make it defeat existing vaccines and antibiotics.

[Joe]

Well, we are right now in the middle of the fauci hearings?

[Annie Jacobson]

Yes, we are.

[Joe]

He is now testifying in front of Congress and pleading the fifth about everything, including the color of his tie. It's very weird to watch. It's in, in one way, it's like I told you to a lot of my liberal friends that wanted to pretend that he was a great guy and that he wasn't doing anything wrong. And now that all these emails have gotten out where it shows that he knew that the fatality rate was much lower than they were saying, he knew that it wasn't dangerous for children, that they didn't need vaccines. He knew that the social distancing thing was all nonsen, and he's got a blanket pardon for 10 years. And the thing is, it's like these people get money for research, and that's what they do. They do research. So if you get money and you get grants for research, well, you're gonna go do research. And if your research is gain of function, research that makes viruses more infectious to human beings, and you know, you have to do it because that's your job. That's what you do, that's what you studied, that's what you went to school for. Like, what a crazy thing we're doing.

[Annie Jacobson]

It is bananas. And it's also, I mean, it was really unfortunate, I thought that yesterday he took the fifth because I for one, just want to hear, call me Pollyanna. The truth be told, you know.

[Joe]

Well, he's not going to tell you the truth, no matter what. He's going to obfuscate and dance around it and use words that don't totally apply to what he's saying and just ramble on.

[Annie Jacobson]

And I mean, Covid absolutely could have been this incredible lesson for all of us. I mean, the nightmare that it was. And instead we're just left. I mean, can you believe that we still, with all the power of national security, that we still allegedly do not know where the virus came from? Don't we know definitively? I mean, definitively, people certainly have their

[Joe]

ideas, but I think it's high probability that it came from the Wuhan label. I think most experts are now saying that. And I think the only reason why they weren't saying that was because of Fauci, and it was really because that he had funded this through the EcoHealth Alliance.

[Annie Jacobson]

Look, I say that in a very like 90,000 foot neutral way. In other words, every sub. I leave Covid that part of it out of my book, it becomes like a, like a metaphor that underpins the narrative, and people end up Reading the book and going, wow, I actually think differently about it, which was kind of my intention. But every subject matter expert I spoke to encouraged me to put in the book that almost certainly it was a lab leak. Like, it's just. So when I say we still don't know, that's in a bit of air quotes, meaning how is it that someone can't. How does it all rest on Fauci, who had reasons to mislead us? We know that from looking at what, what's been released. How can it be that he's the only one with the alleged answer to it all?

[Joe]

Well, I mean, the other scientists that were investigating it from the beginning, you know, when they examined the virus, they were saying it had all indications that it had been manipulated. And they were pretty public about that, and then they weren't, and then they changed their tune. It's just when you have power and you have influence like he did and the power to make or break careers in the medical world, where these people are terrified, you know, they're already dealing with malpractice insurance, which is very high. They already have very high student debt, student loan debt, and it's, it's a bad situation for them. And they're not going to stick their neck out to, you know, risk their, everything that they've worked for, for 20, 30, whatever years for this thing. And that's what most people did. Most people just stuck their head in the sand.

[Annie Jacobson]

And, you know, I sort of went along with a party line, which is also really crazy. When you drill down on how dangerous biological weapons are. I mean, look, most of the people I talked to said gain of function is a euphemism for biological weapons engineering.

[Joe]

Right, Right.

[Annie Jacobson]

Period. Full stop.

[Joe]

And a lot of it is funded. Funded by the military and that.

[Annie Jacobson]

Yes. And, and, and what's crazy, these are people that have worked for Obama just as much as, you know, all sides of the aisle working. The real people who are not, as you say, they don't have something to gain financially.

[Joe]

Well, we should say that Obama actually stopped gain of function research when he was in office, which was a very wise thing for him, very wise by, you know, his decision.

[Annie Jacobson]

So what do you make of the fact that, like, Obama stopped this dangerous research that also called dual use research of concern. He stops it and then suddenly it becomes a partisan issue. That Republic, only one side of the aisle decides that. I mean, that's what confuses me, because if the real, if you look at the facts, the very knowledgeable people that are well informed by people who don't have financial gain. Know that gain of function is essentially weapons engineering.

[Joe]

Yes. And the thing is, they're doing gain of function to make these viruses more transmissible, supposedly so that they can come up with cures. But they didn't have any cures. This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. People who go that little extra step, like your rideshare, pointing out the best local places to eat goes a long way. If you want people who are going to make a positive impression for your business, use ZipRecruiter. In fact, try it for free at ZipRecruiter.com/. ZipRecruiter's latest feature lets candidates go above and beyond to tell you why they want the role. And it shows you the most interested qualified candidates. First, try ZipRecruiter and meet great candidates who'll go the extra step for your job. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Try it for free today at ZipRecruiter.com rogan that's ZipRecruiter.com roGAN ZipRecruiter meet your match on ZipRecruiter and but I think

[Annie Jacobson]

it's like, okay, that also sounds great for them to say we're trying to work on cures, but they're leaving out a really important point is that in order for us to find a cure, we have to make the pathogen more virulent, more transmissible. We have to make something, for example, airborne that wasn't airborne. We have to demonstrate that it's could cause a pandemic. You see that a lot in the literature in order to figure out how to cure it. Well, that's a catch 22 that's incredibly dangerous. Like, we have to actually make a weapon to be able to defeat a weapon. That's actually what is being said.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Joe]

But it seems like there's a lot of bullshit going on and that really what they're trying to do is make better diseases that work better and they can use them. Like this is part of the argument about whether or not Lyme disease was engineered. And there's a lot of evidence that points to the fact that it was. And one of the reasons for it is this Plum island laboratory that's right off the coast of Lyme, Connecticut, where the disease was really first named in the 1970s or whatever it was.

[Annie Jacobson]

Yeah.

[Joe]

And so they were doing gain of function research. They were doing biological research on ticks in order to, infect ticks with diseases and then they would drop them out of airplanes and over overwhelmed the medical establishment in these areas. And the idea was that if you're fighting the enemy, you can fly over, dump a bunch of ticks on them. They all get these horrible diseases, everyone's sick. You don't have an effective fighting force.

[Annie Jacobson]

I mean, it's like we need to create a countermeasure, but first we need to create the weapon.

[Joe]

I don't even know if they think that far ahead. I think a lot of it, I'm just guessing, but I think a lot of it is just what I was saying earlier. There's people and their job is to, to do this kind of research and they want grants and they want funding and they wanted. And then there's other people that can profit off of this, of this, these grants and this funding and creating labs and doing all this stuff. And they just start doing it and they come up with reasons why it should be done. And then of course, you have military people that want the military applications of these diseases. And so they, they help facilitate it. And they don't even think, how does this play out? They think about their own interests, their own short term benefits of having these things, and they just continue the research, they continue to work. And the fact that they even push back on the idea that it was a lab leak so hard when you have a lab right where it was leaked, I mean, right where it started happening, you've got a lab there. And then the famous Jon Stewart bit that he did on the Colbert show, which is hilarious.

[Annie Jacobson]

Yep.

[Joe]

I mean, that's, that's crazy. It's the Wuhan Institute for Coronavirus research.

[Annie Jacobson]

Yes.

[Joe]

And that's where you get a coronavirus leak.

[Annie Jacobson]

I mean, look, this is like where you really have to think the country's going to hell in a handbag, that people stop being able to like form an opinion based on the facts in front of them, even if it isn't popular with their best friend.

[Joe]

Well, it's their party, right. It's their ideology. They've committed to one side or another. And either you, you know, you're with the team or you're not with the team. And if you're with the team, you have to accept all the things the

[Annie Jacobson]

team says at your own peril. I mean, you know, it's an existential risk. Do you know what the case fatality rate for Covid was like? The case fatality rate, it means how many people out of 100 people that get Covid die how many?

[Joe Rogan]

1.

[Annie Jacobson]

One case fatality rate of one pneumonic plague, which I write about in biological war. Mother nature's pneumonic plague. 100 out of 100 die. 100% case fatality rate. Unless you get antibiotics within 24 hours. Then it's about a 15% case fatality rate. But guess what gain of function does. You can learn how to outfox antibiotics so that you can turn mother nature's pneumonic plague, which used to be curable, with antibiotics to have no cure. That's the threat level we're dealing with. And meanwhile, people are taking sides about what we're talking about a lab leak that pretty obviously was a lab.

[Joe]

Well, first of all, I didn't realize that Covid's fatality rate was that high. I thought it was much lower than that.

[Annie Jacobson]

It's about 1%. Well, here's why. Okay, so 1 in 100 people who manifested Covid. Got it. But Covid is also 1 in 100

[Joe]

people who manifested Covid died.

[Annie Jacobson]

Yes. So like, I don't know, was it really that much? That is the cdc, even defense department statistic. But also keep this into consideration. Many, many people who were never symptomatic.

[Joe]

Right.

[Annie Jacobson]

Like including my 83 year old father and my son, one of my two sons, they could both test positive for Covid and have no symptoms.

[Joe]

Right, but isn't that a function of the PCR test being really not designed for testing for active diseases? And there's false positives of. The PCR test was somewhere in the 80%.

[Annie Jacobson]

Huge. Huge. I mean, you're, I think, bringing up the most important point about biology, which is that there's so much uncertainty. There's so much uncertainty. I mean, you and I could get the same pathogen in our lungs. Our immunity systems are totally different. Our physiology is different. So there's no uncertainty. Would be something that you would think would be sort of factored into public health officials talking about things like we're not sure if, but instead they act with this crazy certainty, which is bogus.

[Joe]

Well, the big, the big problem with that is profit. Right? There's, there was a lot of profit in being able to point towards one very particular method, one very particular treatment. And this was the only treatment. And you have to take this treatment. And this treatment is going to make people an insane amount of money. But that's not why they're pushing it. They're pushing it for public health. They really care about you. Even though they're going to make hundreds of billions of Dollars.

[Joe Rogan]

It's the case. Fatality rate. Is that what you're saying?

[Joe]

Yeah, it says it's 0.1%, which was

[Joe Rogan]

a fraction of the 1% estimated early in the pandemic.

[Joe]

Yeah, that's what I thought it was. I thought it was 1/10 of 1%. So that makes more sense to me because otherwise you would have so many people dead. You know, if you think about 300 million people, that means we'd have 3 million people dead. Because most people caught Covid.

[Annie Jacobson]

It's interesting because the CDC still says it's 1%.

[Joe]

I think they're full of. But they are full of. I think they're just. I think the mismanagement and the. Just the overall strategy for dealing with it and dealing with people, the lockdowns, keeping kids out of school, masking, all of it was so bad, it's so indefensible that one of the wildest things now is during this Fauci trial, you're not seeing any coverage of it on mainstream media. Except I saw one of those stupid panel shows on CNN where they were saying, no one cares about this. We should care about what's happening right now. America doesn't care about what happened five years ago. Hey, there's a congressional hearing going on where a guy's testifying in front of Congress who got a 10 year complete 10 year immunity for all the crimes that he possibly could have committed when he wasn't convicted of any crimes, which is an incredible precedent that's never happened before. You've never had a guy get pardoned for something that he was never convicted of for 10 years. Anything he did in 10 years. And then you have that same guy testifying in front of Congress, pleading the Fifth that what color his tie is. If you don't think that's news, you're out of your fucking mind. And you shouldn't be calling yourself the news because you're just a propaganda arm for whatever pharmaceutical company is paying for your advertisements. This, what you're doing is nonsense. This is definitely not news. That's a big issue for most Americans who went through that, people who lost their jobs, people who had to take a vaccine in order to go to work and got sick from it. People who. They couldn't fly, they couldn't travel, they were vilified. They were called plague rats because they were questioning these things. And here we are, here we are with CNN saying this is not a big deal. Why are we concentrating on this? We have so many issues right now plaguing this country. Yeah. Guess what? We can concentrate on those too. We can look at everything. That's what you're supposed to do. That's what the news is supposed to be. You're supposed to be telling. You're not supposed to be the arbiters of what we can and can't concentrate on. That's ridiculous.

[Annie Jacobson]

You know, but what's interesting is I think the lack of news ends up making people more curious. So in other words, people go to other sources of information. If they're not gonna get it from cnn, they're gonna look for it themselves, because we're naturally curious, especially something like Covid. So I think I kind of get the sense that people tow certain groups of people. Certainly not me, because you don't know what my politics are. But they will toe the party line. But then they have their own opinion privately.

[Joe]

Yes.

[Annie Jacobson]

Which is, unfortunately what we also saw from Dr. Fauci. But that's a completely different point because he's a public health official, and he shouldn't be, you know, speaking out of one side of his mouth and writing in his journal another thing that he really thinks. But I think that this human instinct to want to know the truth about what happened must prevail. Right. And that sort of. But my original point was like, why is Dr. Fauci allegedly the only one who can really tell us about the Wuhan lab? Like, where's the CIA? Where's the ODNI? Where's DoD? Where are other organizations that, you know, have that information? Yeah, you know they do. If Fauci had it, they had it. Why aren't they bringing that information to the public domain right now?

[Joe]

That's a very good question. So I want to ask you about this book. Like, what was your motivation for writing it? How did you get involved in this? Like, I know you. You pick a subject and you go deep and you dive deep, and then you write your book. So why Biological War?

[Annie Jacobson]

Yep. My first six books were written in the past tense. Like, you know, the Nazi scientists who Came to America, Area 51, the Pentagon's brain, the Nuclear War, and Biological war are written in the future. They're scenarios based on Pentagon war games. And that was me realizing, like, there are major existential threats right now, speeding up at the rate of science, which is going faster every day, literally. And so I modeled the two books after Pentagon war games and got access to people who actually run these games at the Pentagon and learned the sort of holy shit. People are preparing for the worst case scenario, and no one knows about it

[Joe]

is that their job, though? I mean, that is their job. They have to be preparing for the worst case scenario. The real question is, are you preparing by creating it?

[Annie Jacobson]

The Defense Department or us?

[Joe]

Well, whoever's.

[Annie Jacobson]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, what I wanted to do first of all was like, I'm just naturally curious. I wanted to know, like, what are they?

[Joe Rogan]

What.

[Annie Jacobson]

How does that preparation play out? The most shocking thing about nuclear was to find out, like, oh, there is no plan because we're all dead. That's literally the quote from the FEMA director. There is no population protection planning after a nuclear strike because everyone's dead. Don't forget your morals and hope you stalked Pedialyte. That's what he told me. Okay. Bio is totally different.

[Joe]

Why Pedialyte?

[Annie Jacobson]

Pedialyte, Rena. That stuff you give your kids to drink?

[Joe]

Yeah.

[Annie Jacobson]

Electrolytes.

[Joe]

Yeah.

[Annie Jacobson]

Not just kids or you.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Annie Jacobson]

That's what he said.

[Joe]

Athletes take it when they cut weight.

[Annie Jacobson]

It's been a while since I've been an athlete, but so, yeah, that's what he said. It was like, wow. That's what they're thinking about nuclear. It's just.

[Joe]

Why Pedialyte, though?

[Annie Jacobson]

I guess for the electrolytes.

[Joe]

Does that protect. I know. What is it? Iodine that people tell you to take?

[Annie Jacobson]

I always got the sense that the ped. I should have done a follow up question. Joe.

[Joe]

Yeah.

[Annie Jacobson]

Why Pedialyte? I always got the sense, in the same way that when your kids are babies and they get diarrhea that you give them Pedialyte to, like, you know, get their system filled with necessary electrolytes. So that's. And I also got the sense that it was like hydration and, you know, better than water.

[Joe Rogan]

God.

[Joe]

Ugh.

[Annie Jacobson]

But bio, I learned, is completely different animal because what they're really worried about is the secondary effect of panic and anarchy. And that was really interesting to me because having written all these books about, you know, the Defense Department and the CIA, the programs are very, you know, they're very structured and ordered, and they don't take place in the homeland because we're always fighting wars overseas. So to learn about a program that would go down in the continental United States, where, you know, the Insurrection act gets declared, Posse comitatis gets lifted, the military takes over, and then it goes from there. Third act of the book. Spoiler alert. That was shocking to me, and it was equally shocking that I could actually get this information. A lot of it's classified, but the names of some of the programs are unclassified. So the officials that I interviewed took me up to the edge of what can be legally known. And I also got the sense of like, oh, that. The sense that these former officials are conveying is the public should know about this. My personal interpretation is like, let's stop arguing about stuff that like doesn't matter and get to the facts and start realizing where the real threats are.

[Joe]

So their real fear is worrying about the aftermath, worrying about chaos in the streets, rioting, looting. That's the real fear.

[Annie Jacobson]

That's the real fear. You can search up any of. So there's unclassified pandemic plans which are done by like FEMA, DHS. They're always done by former officials, former SecDef, former CDC director, sitting around a table running a war, a pandemic planning game. They do them at the Defense Department and they call it a biological catastrophe war game. Those are declassified. All of them that I was looking at go through the series of events, you know, outbreak, infection, sort of everyone trying to mitigate the release, the spread. And then it gets to a certain point in my scenario, it's day six because mnemonic plague is fast. There's a point in all these plans where anarchy and chaos takes over and the war game ends. Ends like, oh, and now we're done here. And I would say, as the journalist like to myself, what happens next? What happens next and why aren't we learning about it?

[Joe]

They don't have any plans for what happens after anarchy and chaos.

[Annie Jacobson]

They do, they just don't. They just don't have it in the declassified games. And that's what. There's a plan called the Devolution plan. Eyebrows up for a reason.

[Joe]

I don't like that word.

[Annie Jacobson]

Think about evolution now. Put a D in front of it. Yeah, instead of going forward, you're going backward. So you've heard of DEFCON, right?

[Joe Rogan]

Yes.

[Annie Jacobson]

Okay, so DEFCON, defense readiness condition. There's five, five is the lowest. That's like normal. Every day at 9 11, we were at three. DEFCON 1 means nuclear war. There's a separate structure of readiness condition called cogcon. Probably haven't heard of it because it's classified. Stands for Continuity of Government Readiness condition. It's got four levels. Four is every day, one is insurrection. The Insurrection act gets declared, COGCON 1 is in effect, and the devolution plan happens, which I learned means a subset of pre designated officials. They know who they are, they've signed contracts, they've rehearsed it, they go out. In the words of the former FEMA Director Cog Khan. Juan, you send your devolution crews out. They go out to a hot site, warm site or cold site, underground bunkers located around the United States. This is from an actual FEMA chief telling me this. And they set up how to run the government because the idea is all the regular government people will probably be dead of anarchy, insurrection, pneumonic plague. So they have bunkers, and those are classified. The bunkers are where they are.

[Joe]

Do you remember there was the bunker during the. After 911 where Dick Cheney was in the bunker, but George Bush was just, like, hanging out.

[Annie Jacobson]

They left him. I think they left him in Texas or, you know, he was on his ranch.

[Joe]

He was just out there in the world.

[Annie Jacobson]

You know what? I had someone tell me where he was, and I went through, like, a problem with, like, legal whether I could say this. So I had to say I was told. But, you know, it's not verified, something like that. But one of the CIA spy pilots, Ken Collins, he famously flew the oxcart out at Area 51. He told me that on 9 11, George Bush was driving around in Texas, maybe it was in Florida, in the back of a laundry truck. That's how they kept him hidden.

[Joe]

What? A laundry?

[Annie Jacobson]

A laundry truck?

[Joe]

Did they just have it look like a laundry truck and it outfitted with, like, regular seats in the back, and that's how they drive them around? I mean, a bulletproof laundry truck?

[Annie Jacobson]

No, I think he got like. I think it was like, what do we do with him? And that. That was what was available. It was a laundry truck. That's what I was told by, like, a very reliable source that was available,

[Joe]

meaning there was nothing else available that was incognito.

[Annie Jacobson]

They were trying to transport him to the doomsday plane, which is where he ended up going into the doomsday plan and flying around in circles.

[Joe]

They thought that, like, a caravan of SUVs would be too obvious.

[Annie Jacobson]

Yes.

[Joe]

Wow.

[Annie Jacobson]

Yeah. So you learn really pretty quickly that there's all these plans in place, but then it becomes, like, ad hoc or, like, on the fly in an actual crisis or emergency.

[Joe Rogan]

Whoa.

[Annie Jacobson]

Yep. But okay, you're referring to Mount Weather. That's where Dick Cheney went.

[Joe]

Okay. What is that?

[Annie Jacobson]

So Mount Weather is in the mountains outside of D.C. it's like. There's mountains outside of D.C. right? Blue Ridge Mountains.

[Joe]

Oh, how far are those?

[Annie Jacobson]

175 miles. Okay, so the Pentagon has an alternate command center called Raven Rock, underground bunker.

[Joe]

That sounds like it's right out of a video game.

[Annie Jacobson]

It sounds like they probably have put it in a. That's a real. Like, it used to be classified, and no one used to know about it, and now it's kind of like, out there. The official.

[Joe]

Is this it, Jamie? This is the bunker?

[Annie Jacobson]

Yep.

[Joe]

Oh, we have a map of it. We got blueprints, all sorts of information about it.

[Joe Rogan]

What do you Want to know?

[Joe]

51 miles from D.C. how deep does it. 51 miles from D.C. at least seven levels. Wow.

[Joe Rogan]

Oval Office would be at the bottom.

[Annie Jacobson]

So that's where. That's where Cheney was on 9 11.

[Joe]

So is that where, like, a nuclear bomb can't get to it?

[Annie Jacobson]

A nuclear bomb. Take it all out. In nuclear war, I destroy all of those. I mean, I don't destroy them. I show you how they would be destroyed. Russia would put five nuclear bombs on Raven Rock, and it would just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. That would be it. And also, the fires alone would just incinerate everyone inside.

[Joe]

Also, like, how are you getting your air? Where's your air coming from? Your air is going to be contaminated with nuclear fallout, right?

[Annie Jacobson]

Yes.

[Joe]

Is this what it looks like?

[Joe Rogan]

I don't know. There's a bunch of. Some of those pictures were coming from Tumblr, so I don't know.

[Annie Jacobson]

I think they take the real pictures and then they turn them into, you know, comic books. But you can see some of.

[Joe]

So look how it's got this, like, entrance carved into the side of the mountain with a big cement wall. And you go through that.

[Annie Jacobson]

Yeah.

[Joe]

You know, we were talking about this the other day. We were talking about Derinkuyu. Do you know what that is? It's an underground facility that's in Turkey.

[Annie Jacobson]

Yes, I do know about that.

[Joe]

That they found by accident.

[Annie Jacobson]

Yes.

[Joe]

What was it the night.

[Annie Jacobson]

Like a sheep herder?

[Joe]

Yeah, yeah, they used it.

[Joe Rogan]

It was being used to hide people up until the 1920s.

[Joe]

Wow.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. People like the Greeks were hiding from people invading Greece.

[Joe]

So it can. Or Turkey, I guess, house 20,000 people under there, and they really don't know why they made it or who made it. It's.

[Annie Jacobson]

Turkey is crazy. It's such an old civilization with, like, layers upon layers upon layers of. Just when you think it's really old, it gets even older.

[Joe]

Well, that's Gobekli Tepe.

[Joe Rogan]

Right. Where they.

[Joe]

They had to redate. Well, they still resist it. What. What constitutes modern civilization or civilization in general? They were. They're still trying to say. Some archaeologists are hanging on tooth and claw trying to say that hunter gatherers made these enormous stone columns with 3D drawings that seem to be a calendar of some sort of a cataclysmic event.

[Joe Rogan]

So some of the pictures we were just looking at from Mount Weather, maybe not accurate because it's also used in the TV show the 100.

[Joe]

Oh yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

So.

[Annie Jacobson]

But it is a real.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, that's probably where they get it from. So what we were looking at, I think was the stuff from the TV show.

[Joe]

What is that? What's the 100?

[Joe Rogan]

Like a show like Silo or something where people are, you know, 100 people left or something like that.

[Joe]

I think that's what we had Tim Robbins on and we were talking about Silo. Have you seen that show Silo? Really good show. It's on Apple. And it's essentially about an underground civilization that survives some sort of cataclysm. They don't exactly say in the beginning, I'm early on the show say what the cataclysm is, but these people have to live like deep, deep, deep underground in these self containing facilities and you can't go outside or you die.

[Joe Rogan]

Reddit about it.

[Joe]

So Darren Kuyu could house 20,000 people. And they had, they had pastures or they had storage like for cattle and grain and water and wine and oil presses. It was like crazy.

[Annie Jacobson]

And how many thousands of years, what sea is it? They don't even know.

[Joe]

They don't know. They don't know who made it. They didn't know it existed. They found it. Imagine a guy, the initial story was that his chickens had gone through a hole and he's like, where's these chickens going? They never come back.

[Annie Jacobson]

The disappearing Turkish chickens.

[Joe]

So they knock down these walls and then they find this thing. And they haven't even explored all of it. They don't even have all of it explored yet. It's insane. It's so big and it's just there. And they don't know why and they don't know who made it and they don't know what they're hiding from. This is what it looks like.

[Annie Jacobson]

Yeah. It's incredible.

[Joe]

It's really crazy because it's absolutely enormous. Is this Darren Kuyu right here? This is like some of the tunnels?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. I get confused since they've only done 10% of it, like that's obviously fake, but I don't know how much of that is what it is. That's supposed to be underground, right?

[Joe]

Yeah. That doesn't look real. That, that seems like somebody made that up. But the actual images, like that's an images which is the best. Darren Kuyu underground. Like there? Yeah, right there. That's what it really looked like. So imagine they find this underground and they don't even know how old it is. Because if you find some stuff, you can't carbon date the walls, you can't carbon date the carvings. So they have to find things that are left there. But if people are hanging out there until the 1920s, like so they really don't even know. If you find something how old it is. You can guess, but you don't know, like, how old was the building when this person was there? Was it thousands of years old already? They don't know.

[Annie Jacobson]

It's interesting how the archeologists that have a. Like have skin in the game with an other theory, resist that. And it takes a while. It's like with Gobekli Tep, you know? Now there's investigations going on, archeological digs nearby. And lo and behold, they're finding other things, which makes me feel like they're

[Joe]

all over the area.

[Annie Jacobson]

Yeah, all over the place. Of course, it didn't exist on its own own.

[Joe]

Yeah, of course.

[Annie Jacobson]

Some kind of advanced civilization has neighbors

[Joe]

11,000 plus years ago.

[Annie Jacobson]

So crazy.

[Joe]

It's so weird because we keep pushing the dates further and further back. Like Graham Hancock always says, stuff just keeps getting older. And so it makes you wonder, like, have we gone through something like this before? Whether it's a natural catastrophe or whatever it was.

[Annie Jacobson]

You know, Remember when we were kids, it was like the Lascaux Caves were the oldest thing ever. I don't even remember in France. Remember the drawing of the bull?

[Joe]

Right, right, right.

[Annie Jacobson]

I remember that from the history books.

[Joe]

That's from that Herzog documentary.

[Annie Jacobson]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Amazing.

[Annie Jacobson]

Has he been on this show?

[Joe]

No. I want to get him on. I love that guy.

[Annie Jacobson]

He's the neighbor of my kids.

[Joe]

Whoa.

[Annie Jacobson]

Yeah.

[Joe]

Well, I don't want to say where he lives.

[Annie Jacobson]

People go find him, but that's pretty cool in la. So we'll track him down. He's my favorite documentarian.

[Joe]

Oh, absolutely. Grizzly Man's one of my favorites of all time.

[Annie Jacobson]

Grizzly man is epic. Yeah, it's.

[Joe]

Have you seen Happy People?

[Annie Jacobson]

No.

[Joe]

That's a great one too.

[Annie Jacobson]

Is that new?

[Joe]

No, no, it's a few years old. It's Life in the Taiga. Happy People, Life in the Tiger. It's about these people that live in Siberia off the Tiger river. And they're like the happiest people. And all they do is like hunt and fish and trap and they get together, they have really strong community, they drink and they're laughing and they have like no mental illness. It's really weird. As he documents it, he has such.

[Annie Jacobson]

Have you seen Little Dieter Needs to Fly?

[Joe]

No.

[Annie Jacobson]

The only man rescued from Laos during the Vietnam War. And Herzog. He's died since Dieter. But Herzog goes with him back into the jungle.

[Joe]

Wow.

[Annie Jacobson]

Oh my God. You're gonna love it. It's a treat that you haven't seen it yet. Little Dieter Needs to Fly.

[Joe]

That guy is such a world treasure.

[Annie Jacobson]

Oh my God. Just his voice and like his perspective on everything. Just when you think. Just when I think I know what he's going for. He takes you like on a complete left turn and you're left like at least for me. Thinking about the world in a completely new original way.

[Joe]

Yeah. So these caves in France, they thought that that was the old. But that was really old.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Joe]

Wasn't that like 30 plus thousand year old drawings?

[Annie Jacobson]

I think maybe Jamie can Jack Ross. I think they were like 7,000 B.C. you know, so I think they were older than that.

[Joe Rogan]

Discovered 1940 by four teenagers. Closed in 63. All paintings created around 17,000 years.

[Annie Jacobson]

17,000, okay. Yeah, that's it.

[Joe]

God, I thought it was old.

[Joe Rogan]

It's just a quick explanation.

[Joe]

This is the Werner Herzog documentary. I thought they were like literal cavemen made it.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, I mean,

[Joe]

so that's only 17,000 years ago.

[Joe Rogan]

So that says.

[Joe]

Interesting. God, I really thought it was a lot older than that.

[Annie Jacobson]

But then they come up with like the hand on the cave in Indonesia. I think that's 40,000 and believed to

[Joe]

be 19,000 years ago. That's interesting. So at one point in time they thought that was the oldest.

[Annie Jacobson]

When I was a kid, I remember

[Joe Rogan]

that like it's not quite what it says. So yeah, painting for the site were duplicated with the same materials which were used to believe like. Which were used 19,000 years. That doesn't mean.

[Joe]

Oh, right.

[Joe Rogan]

It could still be older.

[Joe]

Right. They knew that they used them 19,000 years ago, but they could have used them a lot earlier. Right, right. We don't have documents. Crazy stuff though. Just imagine like living back then.

[Annie Jacobson]

It is wild when you think about the underground bunkers now. And you can't. It kind of has this spooky echo as an archetype of hiding.

[Joe]

Hiding from the dangers. Yeah. Having a shelter and hiding from the. The whole. That trope that thought of a bunker is, you know, there's a lot of supposedly wealthy people. Well, they are wealthy, but supposedly they have these underground bunkers. That's what you always Hear these rich people, these billionaires are setting up bunkers in New Zealand because they know something's coming. Like, oh, Jesus. Right, right.

[Annie Jacobson]

Good luck getting there in time.

[Joe]

Yeah, Right, right. If a shit goes down and you happen to be in Hawaii and you gotta get to New Zealand, also, your

[Annie Jacobson]

bodyguards are a lot stronger than you are.

[Joe]

Well, wouldn't you bring them with you?

[Annie Jacobson]

Yeah, but it's gonna be every man for themself.

[Joe]

Well, wouldn't you have it. If you're gonna have that kind of money to make a. Wouldn't you have a bunker that could house a few hundred people so that you could, you know, nobody gets insurrection in your movement.

[Annie Jacobson]

I mean, I suppose if you bring everybody's family, you have to have a lot of preparing for this. That's what really kept taking me back to those document, the documents in the Defense Department about fear of infection creates anarchy, right? And insurrection. Because this idea of, like, fear of infection, people begin to. Their mind actually begins to change. In the studies under scarcity, right? And scarcity coupled with fear of infection, it's so visceral. It's like, it's as much of an archetype as the bunker being infected. Very, very different than being shot at. Right? You get the sense if you're. If you can get into the bunker, if you're being attacked with a physical weapon, okay, I'm safe now. Close the doors, make a fire. But with fear of infection, I mean, a biological weapon or any pathogen is a living munition. It self replicates and it's got an incubation period. So then it adds. Right?

[Joe]

So then you can be infected and not know it while it's incubating inside of your body. And then you infect a bunch of other people as well. Yeah, yeah. And we saw during COVID how aggressive people got screaming at people for not wearing masks. And, you know, that was, as far as pandemics go, fairly mild.

[Annie Jacobson]

Yeah, fairly mild. Like, I mean, if you go with the CDC's 1% or your 0.1% of the perplexity.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Annie Jacobson]

Perplexity is one. I mean, you're talking about a nothing burger compared to mnemonic plague. And there are, you know, I mean, look, I also write in the book, and this has never been reported before because I interviewed CIA officers who both debriefed the Soviet defectors and also people who chased WMD in the hands of terrorists during the war on terror. And I specifically didn't want to write that scenario because it's so loaded to go with like terrorist youth, use of a biological agent. But I give you little history lessons when I stop the drama, one of which involves an Al Qaeda terrorist that was captured. She's actually now in Texas in a mental institution for the rest of her life. Her name's Afia Siddiqui. She's an MIT trained biologist related by marriage to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. Okay. And she was leading the biological weapons program. This is according to the CIA officers.

[Joe]

She was trained at mit.

[Annie Jacobson]

She was trained at mit and then she went back to Pakistan. She was the first woman on the FBI's most wanted terrorist list.

[Joe]

How come they have her in a mental institute?

[Annie Jacobson]

Because they caught her. And then this part is reported. They caught her. And somehow, again, the air quote, somehow, she got a hold of a Marine's rifle and was firing at the FBI agents interviewing her. This is all public. And she was shot. They take her to the United States, gave her a trial, decided she was insane, put her in a mental institution. But what had never been revealed before my book is that in her handbag, she had plans to create a genetically modified pathogen that mixed rabies with chicken pox. Think about that. Imagine airborne rabies. Rabies, like pneumonic plague, is one of the only other pathogens that has 100% death rate without countermeasures.

[Joe]

And rabies, like, when you see it in animals. I've never actually encountered a rabid animal in the. In the wild as much as I know. But when you see them, they. They want to infect something else. They get hyper aggressive. They want to bite you, so they bite you. They give it to you, which is really crazy. Like this. This disease makes them throw their own safety out the window and just go after people and try to bite them.

[Annie Jacobson]

I mean, it's like a. It's like rabies is, like, now its own. A rabid animal. You think of it, of. It's so visceral, it's gonna come at you with its infected saliva. I almost went with the rabies scenario because I always, in these scenarios, tie them to actual events that have happened so that there's. So that readers don't go like, this is Annie Jacobson's dystopian imag. As much as they say, oh, she's following what, you know, science. This is science fact, not science fiction. And so when I learned about that plan for the genetic modification of rabies and chickens, airborne rabies. But then I thought, how far did

[Joe]

she get along with this?

[Annie Jacobson]

That is classified, Annie. You know, but I did get a second person, David Relman, who's the advisor to the President on biodefense, to confirm with me that that was actually located in her handbag and caused serious concern.

[Joe]

Now imagine if they never found her, they never caught her and she completed that.

[Annie Jacobson]

I mean it's really terrifying.

[Joe]

It wipes out most of the country

[Annie Jacobson]

and also just in the most horrific way. I mean, you know, like having to like look at your pet and be like, is my pet rabbit? It's just.

[Joe]

Jesus, it could catch it too.

[Joe Rogan]

Another project.

[Joe]

Oh, she had another project.

[Joe Rogan]

Multiple projects experience.

[Joe]

She had collected materials on viruses for biological warfare. And one of her projects is finding its way to infect America's poultry supplies with an antibody that would allow chickens to pass salmonella onto humans more easily. She later destroyed her work after suspecting Abu Lubab was hoping to double cross her and turn her into the United States authorities.

[Joe Rogan]

This is a long Wikipedia with quite a bit of twists and turns. I'm surprised it's not a movie. It's a lot going on.

[Joe]

Oh my God. And that's one person that we caught now that's not like this is the only time they thought of that. This is the only person that they tried to recruit to do this kind of stuff. There's probably someone out there right now, hence your book.

[Annie Jacobson]

I mean I interviewed this guy, very famous legendary CIA officer named Rolf Moat Larson and he led the counter WMD team, right? So he would go to places basically like with a bunch of ground branch guys, CIA paramilitary guys behind. He was kind of like the intelligentsia at the front to try to negotiate with Al Qaeda weapons makers, biological weapons makers and say like, you can't do this, it's gonna kill all of us. And he told me a couple stories and I write them like history lessons in the book. Once he went to Sudan and met with the top biological weapons maker for Al Qaeda. And like, you know, it's just chilling. It's basically you get the feeling like that Rolf said, I got them to agree to stop temporarily.

[Joe]

Temporarily.

[Annie Jacobson]

Temporarily. Sorry Joe. This is the nightmare stuff.

[Joe]

So what do they think that they're gonna do if they get into these bunkers? This is the thing. It's like if society completely collapses and anarchy just sweeps the nation and you've got cities on fire and people killing people and looting, eventually they're going to run out of food. Eventually there's going to be no infrastructure. You've got no power, you've got no one who's taking care of the water, no one's taking care of the satellites. No one's taking care of anything. The cell phone towers are down. What are these people in the bunker going to do? Are they going to reinvent society?

[Annie Jacobson]

Well, that's the plan down the road. But before.

[Joe]

Do they have that?

[Annie Jacobson]

Part five of the devolution plan is called reconstitution.

[Joe]

Oh, Jesus.

[Annie Jacobson]

So they're gonna reconstitute the government, like, rise again like a phoenix from the ashes. But before that, I also learned the government has issued rather, the Pentagon has issued 1.7 million gas masks to its personnel. So they fan out across the States, but they can not really handle the numbers of people who are actually going to die pretty quickly. So instead, what their job is, is to protect the critical infrastructure. All that stuff you exactly mentioned.

[Joe]

So they're just. Just assuming that most people are going to die?

[Annie Jacobson]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, this is the quote. This is the exact quote from Colonel Tom Earhart, who ran catastrophic nuclear and biological war games at the Pentagon. 4. Have you ever heard of a very famous guy? They called him Yoda at the Pentagon. He died like a couple years ago at age 100. His name is Andy Marshall. No, he ran the Office of Net Assessment. Talk about a euphemism like. Or like a cloaked. That's where they did all the war gaming. And Marshall. And Andy Marshall did this in the 70s, all the way through his recent death. And Tom Earhart worked for him. It's in the office of the Secretary of Defense. So what Erhard told me is in the event of a biological catastrophe, and by the way, that includes not just an attack, but an incident, and an incident means a lab leak. Okay, so in the event of a catastrophic biological incident, there is very little you can do to protect the homeland. Only things you can do to mitigate

[Joe]

extermination of the human race.

[Annie Jacobson]

That's his quote.

[Joe]

Mitigate extermination.

[Annie Jacobson]

Mitigate extermination.

[Joe]

So you want to keep as many people alive as possible, but it's probably going to be a very small amount,

[Annie Jacobson]

and it's probably just going to be the 1.7 people with the gas mask and a whole bunch of, like, Machiavellian solipsists.

[Joe]

Do you imagine if our society had to be reinvented with only people that work in the government? Can you imagine some of the most incompetent, crooked people in the world? And that's the new society.

[Annie Jacobson]

Well, I have a feeling most of the bureaucrats would die because I don't think they could, you know, take care of themselves.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Annie Jacobson]

I Think the people that would live would be those well trained soldiers?

[Joe]

Well, that's not bad. That's probably a better scenario.

[Annie Jacobson]

But the other problem you're looking at is reproduction because there's 17% females in the military.

[Joe]

That's not good.

[Annie Jacobson]

That's not good. And then the other problem is that the other people who are left that are not in the military are. Imagine the skills you have to have to be able to, like, deal with fear of infection in a manner that you basically have to be able to, as it was said to me, kill people on site. Like, not even worrying about weather. This is where it really feels like the Walking Dead or, you know, an apocalyptic movie.

[Joe]

28 Days later was based on that. Put. 28 Days later was a lab leak.

[Annie Jacobson]

Yes, yes.

[Joe]

Remember, it was called Rage. It was something they were doing with chimpanzees and chimpanzee bites somebody.

[Annie Jacobson]

That's how it opens and it spreads. Those are great films. Those are great. See the new one?

[Joe]

No, I haven't seen the new.

[Annie Jacobson]

Oh, the new one. Parts one and two.

[Joe]

I mean, there's parts one and two.

[Annie Jacobson]

Yeah. Ones, yeah.

[Joe]

Oh, it's a two parter.

[Annie Jacobson]

Two parter. They release them like six months apart. Oh, God, they're incredible. I mean, don't just get worn out

[Joe]

from those kind of movies.

[Annie Jacobson]

I mean, it's a certain. You have to have a certain.

[Joe]

There's no happy ending.

[Annie Jacobson]

I don't. I mean, Jo, I'm an eternal optimist,

[Joe]

believe it or not.

[Annie Jacobson]

I really am.

[Joe]

That's crazy, considering your work.

[Annie Jacobson]

But I just figure all of this is a cautionary tale. And I also figure it's better to know than to.

[Joe]

Well, it's better to inform. And I think you do an amazing job of that. And I think you're a very important person in that regard. You inform people of these things that you really should be considering. I mean, your Nuclear War book freaked a lot of people out that were kind of, you know, nuclear war was in the back of their mind, you know. Yeah, it's a possibility. But hey, we haven't done it. We dropped a couple of bombs during the World War II and that's it. We're done with that.

[Annie Jacobson]

You know, you said something to me last time we spoke about the Nuclear War book. That really stayed with me. And it has an interesting coda. So you were like, annie, I couldn't read Nuclear War. It freaked out a lot of my friends. I can't read it. And then you explained why and you said, I'm paraphrasing. You, but you said, I think about those people at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and they were just going about their daily life, and all of a sudden they're incinerated. And that really stayed with me. And I thought about it. Here's the coda. The survivors are called habaksha. That's what they call themselves. It's like survivors of the nuclear bomb. So now, since it was 80 years ago, they're all like 81 to 90 plus. And they were stigmatized throughout their youth because the idea was, you're radioactive, you can't reproduce, you're sort of. You know, there's like a malignant. A malignant thing attached to you. This is what they told me. And I met them and they. I was invited to Hiroshima to be the keynote speaker with the habaksha for the 80th anniversary of the bombing.

[Joe]

What did they say the experience was like in terms of being maligned? Like, what. What was happening to them?

[Annie Jacobson]

Well, the sense I got was very much that. That they believed that was accurate. They had no other information. They had no other information other than people telling them, you know, that they were radioactive. Yeah. Now, what was also interesting is a couple of the younger people who don't remember, who were like, infants, their mothers, like, let's say one parent died and another. So the living parent would shield them from that by never telling them that they were habaksha. So then they had this whole other kind of realization later in life when they learned. And some of. I mean, those stories were, like, incredible, because you're learning about how a parent's love for a child means not telling them what you think would make them feel stigmatized. But yet you. Them explaining to me that they felt that stigma throughout their life anyways, not

[Joe]

knowing why, I never even would have considered that stigma. I would have considered survival skill, survivor's guilt, which people do have. If you're a part of a disaster and you're one of the ones that live, people get survivor's guilt. But I never would have thought of the stigma of. Of being maligned as an infected radioactive person.

[Annie Jacobson]

And Japan has such a different culture. I couldn't have imagined that either until I heard it firsthand from the experience of the survivors. They sent some of them to an island, like, banished, as if you're a leper.

[Joe]

How much is this Iran thing freaking you out?

[Annie Jacobson]

The war?

[Joe]

Yeah.

[Annie Jacobson]

Look, I mean, when anyone starts a war, that's not necessary. That's the wrong word for it. But, you know, just like this is the whole. It's just a terrible, terrible, terrible idea. It just seems to me like the opposite of what the Department of Defense. It's why I continue to call it the Department of Defense, by the way, because it still is in my mind, and certainly until Congress changes the name, you know, it's supposed to be for defense. Right. So I think so. So much of what I have written about all the wars Since World War II, I've interviewed hundred or more people for each of my eight books who have been in every war. And the big shift for me, like, understanding a change in mindset was the Bush Cheney administration starting the Iraq war. Like, I really believe that many of the problems we're experiencing today as a society stem from that. And that has to do with the fact of all the soldiers that I've interviewed. There's a completely different perspective on the government from those who fought in the wars leading up to the war on terror. And the people who. Most of them, you know, many of these people, too, like, they're mad. They're really mad that they were used. That's a sense that I get now. Not everyone, but a majority are very angry and feel used. And that is a fundamental warping of what the military is.

[Joe]

Yeah, without a doubt. And also no clear way to resolve this at all.

[Annie Jacobson]

Yes.

[Joe]

It seems like our stockpiles are running dry. You know, we're bases are getting blown up by drones.

[Annie Jacobson]

I heard, you know, I heard Joe Kent, who was the number two at ODNI who resigned. I heard him say a really interesting thing about the warrior class that I hadn't. You know, when you just, like, have all this information, but you didn't put something together and then you hear it and you're like, of course. And what Joe said was one of this was in reference to Trump maybe saying there was gonna be or someone in this administration saying there should be a draft, and everyone freaking out and saying, like, that's, you know, that's outrageous. And Joe Kent's point was really interesting. He said there should be a draft, but not for reasons you think. And he said, presently, America has a warrior class, and Joe Kent is in it. Meaning, you know, these are like, don't have the exact statistic, 1%, less than 1% of families who are in the military. And he said, Kent said, you know, we socialize with one another, our kids socialize with one another, we go to school with one another, we go to war with one another, we talk together, we have parties together. And we know something about America that is completely foreign to all the other families. And there's something wrong with that. And I've really thought about that a lot since. And I agree with him. And his point about the draft was if everybody knew and experienced what we experience in our families talking about war versus peace, wars would be looked at differently.

[Joe]

Instead of thinking we should go to war like a Lindsey Graham type perspective. Whereas no real skin in the game. He's not going to go get shot. No one he knows is going to go get shot.

[Annie Jacobson]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Joe]

Makes sense.

[Annie Jacobson]

So that's kind of my answer to, you know, and I like, I, I'll see a headline that's like the war in Iran costs US XYZ billion dollars. And it's like it doesn't even mention all the people dying. You know, there's like 10. And yes, the Americans. But like, it's just talk about misreporting, right?

[Joe]

It's just talking about money, which is crazy.

[Annie Jacobson]

Which is crazy, which is crazy.

[Joe]

And then it also, the real problem is it makes America an enemy and it makes us less safe because America has done this thing, this unprovoked attack and so now they have a reason to attack back.

[Annie Jacobson]

It's very like slippery, you know, it's like untrustworthy. I mean, I always go back to like the way you behave with your family is the way that you should present the world, otherwise you're being a hypocrite. And the idea that we as a country are kind of like you're not really sure what we're up to. And then it's changing. It's like radically changing. One, the pendulum swings so far from what one administration's list of really important things is to another. I mean it must, from an outside perspective, it must be really schizophrenic looking.

[Joe]

Yeah. So to get back to your book, how many different countries do we know are involved in this kind of biological war research?

[Annie Jacobson]

So for starters, biological war is illegal. Biological weapons are illegal, unlike nuclear weapons, believe it or not, are perfectly legal for the countries that have them. Wrap your head around that. But everybody signed a treaty in 1972 called the Biological Weapons Convention Treaty saying we will not make biological weapons. They are odious to the conscience of mankind. At that point. The Soviets signed the treaty, crossed their fingers behind their back and made a ginormous biological weapons program that you talked about earlier. Okay. America allegedly destroyed her arsenal of biological weapons which took 219 weeks to destroy, by the way. And not for another 20 years did we learn that actually the Soviets were running this biological Weapons program. And we only learned it because of the Soviet defectors. The CIA had no idea, Defense Department had no idea.

[Joe]

So we had completely stopped all of that work.

[Annie Jacobson]

According to the documents, according to anyone you interviewed, we had stopped biological weapons.

[Joe]

What year was this Hall?

[Annie Jacobson]

Nixon made a declaration in 1969, like we're just giving up our biological weapons program. And then everyone else followed suit. And the treaty came about in 1972.

[Joe]

But the Soviets continued their work.

[Annie Jacobson]

The Soviets not only continued, they just like, they like went bang on it. And they later called it their Manhattan Project.

[Joe]

And weren't there bioweapons labs in Ukraine

[Annie Jacobson]

you're talking about recently?

[Joe]

Yeah, that the United States was involved in what?

[Annie Jacobson]

There are, are, there are biologic, there are biosafety labs. Okay, so your original question was, where are they? Around the world. So they're illegal. But what isn't illegal? Cause this is a carve out in the treaty. You can do research for prophylactic purposes, for medical countermeasures. That's the carve out. So that's where we've gotten to gain a function, you see, like, oh, we're just doing this for prophylactic purposes.

[Joe]

That's how the DOD gets involved.

[Annie Jacobson]

Okay, so before 9 11. 911 factors into this and so does Dick Cheney. Because before 9 11, America had two BSL4 labs. Bio safety level four. That's the highest level. That's like you saw the suits, the tubes, your arms are in the boxes, you're taking a chemical shower before you go In, America had two. One at Fort Detrick, that's the DOD's lab. One at the CDC in Atlanta, that's the civilian lab. 911 happens. Remember the anthrax attacks? Never solved. Thank you FBI. Dick Cheney personally is terrified of bioweapons. And, and he spearheads the efforts for this giant biological military industrial complex that then takes off and begins with billions of dollars pumped into gain of function type research. And America goes from having two BSL labs to having 15. And the world follows suit. So there are 110 BSL4 labs around the world, including in countries that are at war.

[Joe]

And this is all post Bush administration.

[Annie Jacobson]

Post Bush administration. That is when it took off. That is when it took off.

[Joe]

Wow.

[Annie Jacobson]

So America has a hand in the blossoming of this problem. Most certainly. And then when you find out that. So you think BSL4. Okay, well BSL3, that just must be like, you know, chickenpox. No, in the BSL3 labs you can work with plague, anthrax, hantavirus, like serious diseases that allegedly have cures. And so you know how many BSL3 labs there are in the United States of America right now?

[Joe]

How many?

[Annie Jacobson]

1500. 1500. And around the world there are 3500, 500. 90% of them have no guidelines for safety.

[Joe]

Did you hear about the story where there was a man in Vegas that had a bio lab in his garage?

[Annie Jacobson]

Yes.

[Joe]

In California. Another one.

[Joe Rogan]

They're both there's. And they were seemingly linked.

[Joe]

Oh, boy. Possibly tied to California case. Federal Chinese investigation.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, wait till I show you what's at the bottom too. Oh, boy.

[Joe]

Jamie, why are you doing this to me?

[Annie Jacobson]

Oof.

[Joe]

No case appeared filed in state federal court as of Sunday.

[Joe Rogan]

Like it's. And I didn't really see a follow up.

[Annie Jacobson]

I haven't seen the dead mice. Jamie, what are the. What's with the dead.

[Joe Rogan]

Thousand dead mice. There's vials, including hiv, malaria.

[Joe]

Well, the crazy thing is the guy who they caught, they didn't arrest him. Like there was an Israeli guy. So this has Chinese investigation, but one of them was a guy who was an Israeli guy who they caught and they sent him away. He just. They didn't prosecute him. He took off.

[Annie Jacobson]

I mean, this stuff is so thinly reported and it's always got like a giant sensationalist, clickbait type headline. And people read about it and know about it a little bit and then. But the real reality behind it, I think gets completely lost, which is that the bottom line is that the barrier to entry in the biological weapons field is so incredibly low, it's horrifying. Like, think about what you need to have a nuclear weapon a lot. I mean, look at Iran right now, okay? You have to have enriched uranium or plutonium. You have to have fissile material. Then you have to have a weapon system. You have to have an ICBM or a submarine or a B2 bomber. Nuclear weapons are tightly controlled by a nation's command and control structure. All subject matter experts I interviewed for this book expressed their serious concern that the barrier for entry is so low that basically a given computational systems, AI enabled bio. Basically a high school student with limited knowledge of biology can make a bioweapon in their basement or in the Vegas apartment building.

[Joe]

Well, this guy had it in his garage and they caught him.

[Annie Jacobson]

And what was he doing? Do we know?

[Joe]

I don't know. They referenced it as a storage facility and they said that was it.

[Joe Rogan]

Yes, it said storage facility.

[Joe]

Yeah, it said not a laboratory, adding that the samples and equipment suggested no active work. Was happening there, there. But it says. I think the question is why does somebody have these materials in a private residence? It's not a doctor, not a lab, not a licensed medical facility of any sort, this guy.

[Annie Jacobson]

And it's a great question and I wonder what the answer is.

[Joe Rogan]

I also think it was like an Airbnb or something that's kind of like the. It gets lost in the. Who owned the llc?

[Joe]

Who owned it?

[Joe Rogan]

They said the guy who was running it doesn't own it.

[Joe]

And 1200 samples. Oh God. So this is.

[Annie Jacobson]

What was he doing? What was he doing?

[Joe]

I know, but I think they released him. That's what's crazy. The guy in Vegas was released, Is that correct?

[Joe Rogan]

That's what I was trying to say. When I googled that, I didn't really see a follow up on like anything updated or new.

[Joe]

I'm pretty sure they were. I'm pretty sure the guy in Vegas was an Israeli citizen and he was released. So the question is like what was he doing? And he was caught. But that's just one guy that was stupid and got caught. How many people are doing that? How many are there? Sleeper labs all across the country.

[Joe Rogan]

Ori Solomon charges dropped. It says I'm the property manager.

[Joe]

Whoopsies.

[Joe Rogan]

Maybe it's because he's the property manager.

[Joe]

Yeah, no big deal. He didn't do anything.

[Joe Rogan]

Without prejudice. Still faces criminal charge in Clark county for improper disposal of hazardous waste.

[Joe]

But didn't he leave and go back to Israel?

[Joe Rogan]

I mean this is just. I'm looking at the.

[Joe]

I think that was the allegation.

[Joe Rogan]

He's due back in court on June 4, which was already happened ago. Yeah. So I don't. Let's see. I didn't see anything about it. I'll look it up.

[Joe]

Yeah, nothing to see here. It says it Israeli citizen. Right. Didn't say that. Go back to.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Joe]

We just.

[Joe Rogan]

On a non immigrant visa is not allowed to possess firearms. Prosecutors say multiple guns receives from his home.

[Joe]

Well, you gotta have guns if you've got plague.

[Annie Jacobson]

You gotta look out for your stock guard your plague. But you know, I stayed away from that kind of lone actor crazy because

[Joe]

that's a lone actor.

[Annie Jacobson]

I mean. Exactly. You don't know.

[Joe]

And if it was, would you think they'd let him go? That's. That's my question. If it's a lone actor, would they really let him go? Or is he connected to somebody and that's how he got out?

[Annie Jacobson]

I mean one of the problems of the over politicization of everything is that it just seems like anything important becomes splatter and become secondary to some of these other concerns that seem to take headlines. Right. Like, that should be a big story. And yet all any of us ever heard was, did you hear about the crazy bio lab?

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Annie Jacobson]

I can tell you that the bigger story is really, at least to my eye, you know, because this is another one. Oh, thank God nothing got out. Thank God no one was infected. But the real issue is what happens if someone does get. What happens if a pathogen gets seeded in the community and an outbreak starts to move to an epidemic? And, you know, I write in the end of the book, Joe, the point is not panic. This is, of course, after I take you through, like, the worst dystopian nightmare ever. The point is pressure. Pressure to understand the threat. The labs around the world, the bureaucracy involved, all the different problems that would come up of mitigating the threat so that you can be informed and also say, like, wait a minute, something really needs to be done and needs to be looked at here. And instead, people are arguing about the most obvious thing in the world. To my eye, you know, what happened in the Senate yesterday, like, that is pretty obvious what happened. What is being covered up. We were misled. And yet all of this, I'm not saying to skip over it, but it's like, how much effort do we put on something without a resolution? That's what confounds me.

[Joe]

Yeah, it's a really good question. And the fact that there's so many labs in this country and that they've all sprung up post 2001, they moved

[Annie Jacobson]

that Plum island lab, by the way, to Kansas, and it either just opened or is about to open. It cost an extraordinary amount of money.

[Joe]

And are they doing the same research?

[Annie Jacobson]

Yep. They moved it off of Plum island, and now it's in Kansas.

[Joe]

Do you know anything about this Alpha Gal tick, this Lone Star tick that gives people this allergy to red meat?

[Annie Jacobson]

A little bit. A little bit. Inasmuch that it's a parasite, which is different. You know, it's a bug, which is different than a germ. But I think it speaks to this idea that sort of there are natural things that are happening in our environment, and then there are also unnatural things and the inability to differentiate between them or trust. Look, so much of all this has been about trust the science, and then, okay, we can't trust the science, unfortunately, around Covid, and we're all waiting for a reckoning around Covid. It's obviously not coming anytime soon. And in the meantime, you have, you know, the lettuce outbreak, you have the alpha gall, you have legionnaires disease. From data centers in Europe, there's an influx of health concerns coming from mother Nature herself. Here we are in this world of incredible science and technology. I mean, I talk to biotechnologists who by the way, really have a utopian take on this. Now there is lots of money involved for that, but they really believe that science is the answer and can be the answer to a lot of these problems. I sat next to a guy at dinner a couple nights ago who told me that his company in San Diego has a countermeasure for alphagol. I have no idea of verifying this. This just happened, but that the reason they can't get it through is because of insurance.

[Joe]

You know, one of the treatments that's supposed to be very effective is acupuncture on your ears.

[Annie Jacobson]

On your ears?

[Joe]

Yeah. See if you can find anything on that. I read about this, that there's like a 90% remission that one guy's been able to achieve through acupuncture on your ears. Just like, what do you. What like? Hey, whatever works. But is this real acupuncture? Specifically, a specialized ear technique called Sollyman Auricular Allergy treatment is being explored by integrative practitioners to help manage and potentially achieve remission for Alpha Gal syndrome, though it's not yet a standard medically proven cure. How it works for Alpha Gal Targeted ear points. Provider locates a specific highly reactive electrical point on the outer ear associated with the Alpha Gal immune response.

[Joe Rogan]

Once.

[Joe]

Acupuncture is so weird because it seems to be doing something.

[Annie Jacobson]

Do you have acupuncture?

[Joe]

No, no. I had it done once, but the guy was a kook and I never went back.

[Annie Jacobson]

I feel like acupuncture is so old and comes from such a long history of experiences. I have acupuncture and it just seems like anytime I go for anything, someone wants to give me drugs, which I'm not a fan of. I go to the acupuncturist. Sure call it the placebo effect or call it whatever you want, but it certainly works for me.

[Joe]

I don't necessarily think it's a placebo. I think a lot of that really old stuff we like to dismiss because we like petroleum based pharmaceutical drugs because that's what the doctor gives us as standard of care. I have a feeling there's a lot of real. It's been around too long for them to just keep faking it.

[Annie Jacobson]

I mean, if it works, it works.

[Joe]

Well, if this. If it turns out that this ear technique actually. Yeah. Puts Alpha Gal in remission, maybe people will take that stuff more seriously and start using acupuncture for other. Because I know a lot of people swear by it, and I'm always. I just kind of raised my eyebrow, like, all right, good luck. But maybe that's just me being ignorant, and definitely that's me being ignorant. A specialized ear acupuncture method called the Solomon Auricular Allergy Treatment shows a high reported success rate of about 85 to 96% for putting alpha Gal syndrome symptoms into remission. That's pretty crazy. Yeah. I mean, I don't know who did the study.

[Annie Jacobson]

I like it. I like that that's out there, because I always feel like the acupuncturists are sidelined because they're not part of the medical insurance. Military industrial complex stays in your ear

[Joe Rogan]

for three to four weeks.

[Annie Jacobson]

Oh, wow.

[Joe Rogan]

It's not just like a treatment.

[Joe]

It's secured with a small adhesive bandage.

[Joe Rogan]

Wow. Interesting. Wow. Tiny little needle hair.

[Joe]

Thin stainless steel needle. Huh.

[Joe Rogan]

137 patient trial, looks like. I wonder how.

[Joe]

How. Who figured that out?

[Annie Jacobson]

Do you know anyone who's gotten alpha galls?

[Joe]

Yes, a good friend of mine.

[Annie Jacobson]

Wow.

[Joe]

Yeah, he has it.

[Annie Jacobson]

And what, he's become deathly allergic or. Oh, yeah, deeply allergic.

[Joe]

I mean, it doesn't kill him, but it wrecks him. And so he got over it and started eating meat again. And then it came back with a vengeance. It came back even worse than it was before. So it went into remission, and then it came back, and, you know, he's really, like, tightened up his diet and done everything. One thing that really helped him was plasmapheresis. Do you know what that is?

[Joe Rogan]

Mm. Mm.

[Joe]

It's. They take your blood and they filter out the plasma and replace it. Yeah, I had it done. I've done done for fun, just to see what it feels like. And you get really tired the next day. That's one thing. But then the day after that, oh, my God, you feel amazing. You feel like. Like you've just lost 20 years of age. Like, it really feels incredible. You have so much energy. It's really odd. Whatever it is, it's doing something. But people that have autoimmune issues, people that have allergies, people that have a lot of different weird things, apparently they have some great responses from that. But my friend, you know, he struggled with a bunch of different things and getting his blood work and lab work done. He was also in the military and spent a lot of time overseas. And one of the things that he found out is pfas. Pfas, These forever chemicals you get from plastics. He's got burning plastics. Well it's not just that. It's also just hot water. So like they take these bottles of plastic bottles of water in cases and they've got them sitting out in the sand in the sun in Afghanistan and Iraq and that's their water supply. So they're drinking this water that's been sitting out in the sun that's leaching in these plastic bottles. So he found out that his PFAS levels were off the charts. And that's because you know, he was deployed overseas all those years drinking that water.

[Joe Rogan]

See this about the PFAS chemicals. I just saw this come out. So I don't know that how tested it's been but someone's figured out a way to get almost all of it out.

[Joe]

Out of water but not your body.

[Joe Rogan]

Well that's how it's getting in mostly so.

[Joe]

Right. But the problem is once it gets in your body, it's the problem scientists, because my friend still had. I mean Evan has it in his body. Scientists have developed a clever new way to trap forever chemicals in water using nano sized cages that lock onto PFAS molecules. Unlike current methods, this approach can capture short chain pfas, the hardest type to remove. Tests show that it can eliminate up to 98% of these pollutants and still work after multiple uses. The discovery could lead to more effective water filtration systems worldwide. Well that's good news. Science, technology.

[Annie Jacobson]

Yeah, dual use, it can be good. It can help you or harm you or kill you.

[Joe]

And there's some brilliant people out there that are figuring out ways to mitigate all the stupid things that we do like that.

[Annie Jacobson]

Yeah, but people, you know, the whole new creeping up of new diseases emerging and sort of like in pockets of the country and feeling like the CDC or the HHS has no real lid on it or no real explanation. I think kind of seriously undermines the general wellness of the nation.

[Joe]

Oh for sure. Well that was a big problem with COVID is that this feeling of the fear and anxiety affected people's immune systems as well. Affected their, their depression levels, affected their happiness like just their overall feeling anxiety. I mean how much of an effect just the, the cortisol boost all the different things that are happening that's stressing out your body because of that pandemic that we don't even consider as being part of that experience.

[Annie Jacobson]

I think Also, when you like, okay, can I give you an anecdote? Because this comes to mind about what you're saying is like, that idea that there's uncertainty, okay? And uncertainty raises your cortisol levels. And even worse is when you're uncertain about something you're being told is true, but you're like, I'm uncertain. That is, like, even more anxiety making, right? One of the things that's stunning to me is how the CDC and the who, they're supposed to be these pillars of sort of the North Star of Public Health, at least they certainly were when I was a kid. You really looked up to these organizations, okay? Covid happens. The WHO and the CDC both issue. They're tweeting out three months into the pandemic. Covid not airborne. Not is in capital letters. I have a copy of the tweet in the book. Because no one really believes this unless they see it, okay? Covid was airborne. Covid was airborne. That is how we all got Covid. It is make something incredibly pandemic prone, okay? Instead they said, you get. Remember, you get Covid from, like, touching surfaces. We're all, like, out buying Lysol. The CDC went into a partnership with Lysol. Lysol disappeared from the supply chain. We now know that's actually called fomite transmission. That's the scientific term for getting something off a surface. We now know that 1, 1 in 10,000 cases of COVID was transmitted from a surface. How can they have gotten it so wrong? Is a question everybody should be asking. And the explanation, because, by the way, the WHO didn't change. They kind of quietly, about nine months later, started saying, Covid was airborne, same as cdc. They never said, like, look, we're really sorry. We made a serious mistake, and here's why. And I called both the CDC and the WHO looking for an explanation and asking why they never made an apology. And no answer. And I think that's, like, what we're talking about. Talk about raising cortisol levels, you know, when your institution is completely wrong. And by the way, I don't think it was nefarious. They literally didn't know. Or they had their panel of experts disagreeing to such an extent that they just went with not airborne as opposed to airborne.

[Joe]

Well, it does weird you out that they were in a partnership with Lysol.

[Annie Jacobson]

I had to report that in the book because that is, you just start

[Joe]

thinking about profit motives.

[Annie Jacobson]

I mean, if I had to guess, it was convenient to have a partnership with them. I don't have any reason to believe that they were like, let's say it was Fomite transmission and partner up with Lysol. But certainly if you're Lysol, you're gonna probably go, hey, guys, let's partner together. But, you know, it disappeared from the supply chain. I remember trying to buy Lysol, not being able to at Target. It was gone.

[Joe]

Hand sanitizer was everywhere. Everyone was squirting that stuff. Now, turns out hand sanitizer is just not good for you.

[Annie Jacobson]

Absolutely. And I still see people using hand sanitizer all over the place, Bottles of it, like in. In corporate places. It's really bad.

[Joe]

Yeah. Your skin is an organ. And you're taking this stuff that just nukes all of your skin flora, and you're just wiping your hands with it and rubbing it all over you. Like, that's not good. There's nothing good about that. Wash your hands. Fucking soap. Use some soap or not. Don't worry about it as much.

[Annie Jacobson]

It seems like the common sense part of health has kind of gone out the window. I saw this article the other day, which was talking about how kids our age. Do you remember? Like, I went to a play. I grew up in rural Connecticut, and, like, the playground was like, dirt, right? There were like, monkey bars, dirt. You know what I mean? You were like, you got dirty. I would like.

[Joe]

It's good for it.

[Annie Jacobson]

Yeah. And now it's like, you know, fake, whatever. That stuff is plastic, you know? And this scientific study that I came upon when I was. Look, when I was working on this was like, that actually. That dirt is really good for you.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Annie Jacobson]

Like, surprise, surprise. We've evolved. We have evolved by, you know, dealing with germs.

[Joe]

Well, that's why kids are always putting things in their mouth and touching things. Like, it's actually probably good for them to be exposed to all these different bio things. These different, you know, whatever it is, bacteria and germs and buds. Strengthens your immune system.

[Annie Jacobson]

It's kind of common sense, too, you know, like the pacifier rule, you know, when you're a new mom. And it's like, if it fell on the floor for, like. I mean, it's kind of gross, but three seconds, then it's fine. That one's probably not so good.

[Joe]

Well, a certain amount of exposure does strengthen your immune system. And kids that are just living in these completely sterile environments, you gotta think that they have an atrophied immune system because their immune system's not having to battle this stuff. We just. We're terrified of what we don't know. And that's part of the problem with having bad experts or experts that have really flawed approaches.

[Annie Jacobson]

I mean, that's what was so interesting writing this book because I learned so much about biology and about physiology. Right. Like, we all deal with disease so incredibly differently. There is not a set, you know, pathogen A impacts people differently. And why there isn't more of that, why people don't lean into that Mother Nature mystery more. And I'm talking about public health officials, I don't understand because what has happened, I see in society is it's created this fracture where you're either following a sort of set of scientific data which just came from one lab or one group of scientists. You're either following that or you're somehow having an alternate narrative that is actually like somehow harmful. And it couldn't be more the opposite. It couldn't be more the opposite. And when the shit hits the fan, you need a kind of unity among people. You need a sense of like, okay, well, we all disagree and we all have different immune systems, but what's best for the kind of greater the collective. And that's just gone now. That is completely gone. And I find more than anything that people, the Fauci hearings in point, like, instead of being like, maybe I need to change my mind about this, people are like, well, if it serves my side, I'm gonna go louder and if it doesn't serve my side, I'm gonna move on to something else.

[Joe]

Yeah, I've seen people talk about what a travesty bringing him in from the Congress and having him questioned like that and how much good he's done. I've seen people like making these statements online, like, what, what are you seeing that I'm not seeing? Because I'm not seeing that. I'm seeing someone who doesn't want to tell the truth and someone whose emails show a completely contradictory version of what happened versus what he's publicly stated before, including when he was testifying before under oath. So he really should be charged with perjury, but because of this whole 10 year immunity thing that he got, he doesn't have to worry about any of that. Which is also weird because the immunity, the pardon is supposed to protect you from being prosecuted, but then you're no longer supposed to have the fifth Amendment.

[Annie Jacobson]

Yes. I mean, those legal things will play out. They will take a lot of time, you know, and that is, that will go on. What I also want to know is because none of these things happen in a vacuum, right? And it reminds me a little bit of that phrase, you know, when the rats jump off the Titanic as it was sinking. Because I have a little different experience. I watch different individuals, certainly in the news, carefully, of, like, who's changing? Because I just want to learn from it, don't report it. I'm just eyeing it. And I'm seeing people kind of decide, oh, maybe now I'll say a little more about Fauci. Right. Because I do think that people end up having a. They will go where the collective is going, right. If their party starts to turn. Okay. And because I don't write about politics at all, I'm not involved in this. But it's observationally, it's interesting to me, but for this reason in particular, is that why was Fauci in charge? There are other people who are responsible for letting him be in charge. Like, having studied the bureaucracy of what happens in a pandemic, in a biological incident, which this was. There's no reason that he was in charge. There's not doctrine that put him in charge. It was kind of like a group, okay, he'll be in charge. Really. The person in charge is the Secretary of hhs. That is the person in charge. In fact, Joe, I was invited to the White House last week, right. They asked me to come and bring some copies of Biological War, a scenario.

[Joe]

I went, did you meet with Trump?

[Annie Jacobson]

No, I didn't. I met with hhs. I met with the chief technology officer of hhs, and they said in their original email, you know, we're the ones that would be in charge in the event of this kind of a thing, which I know from having reported it. So they're in charge. Why did Fauci get to take the torch?

[Joe]

Why do you think?

[Annie Jacobson]

I don't know, but it should be looked at. In other words, he. Yes, we all know that he was in charge, and he was always. But what I don't understand is in a billion, actually trillion dollar hhs, by the way, has a budget that's twice the size of the Defense Department, twice the size of the Defense Department. And so. And it defaulted to Fauci, who was head of nih, then retired, and then he was just chosen as, like, the President's lead medical counsel or medical professional. So in other words, a group of people put him into that position. Who are they? Why? What do they have to say about this?

[Joe]

Yeah, I'm sure part of it was just they needed someone to take the reins, and he was more than willing to take to do it and probably confidently stated how he would handle it and what we were going to do and how to go about it.

[Annie Jacobson]

And didn't those people also have an opinion? Like, what if they saw the Jon Stewart episode where, you know, like, even if they didn't have an opinion before, why didn't they have an opinion after? And why. Why did everybody just fall into line like sheep? That's really more interesting to me at the this point. In addition to the individual being held responsible for obviously misleading the public and creating a conspiratorial situation, conspiring is simply two or more people working to conceal the truth. Right. It's an actual conspiracy. If you're gonna.

[Joe]

That's a weird thing too, that people resist the term conspiracy and they think it's foolish.

[Annie Jacobson]

It's a legitimate term. I mean, I think when people call other people conspiracy theorists, they should just say they have an alternative narrative. That's all that is. But an actual conspiracy is a legal term.

[Joe]

Well, not only that, there's a huge amount that you can point to in history where there were really people conspiring. Huge amount of stories.

[Annie Jacobson]

And the reason why it's legally, you know, it's a really difficult situation, and it needs to be looked at is because one person, you know, it can keep a secret. Right. But when multiple people are involved and a conspiracy is involved, you are actively working as a group to mislead. And then it becomes easier, more powerful, more effective. And so those other scientists, you know, we now know on the record that there were a dozen scientists that Fauci looked. Looked to to give him information about lab leak versus wet market. 10 of them went with lab leak. 2 of them leaned toward natural spillover. Natural. Fauci wanted it to be natural spillover. You know, that's where you could say, then there began. And again, I'm just talking legal terms, I'm not a lawyer, but like, they began to conspire to change the story. Right. Just look at the numbers. Yes, look at the numbers.

[Joe]

Yeah.

[Annie Jacobson]

And so what about that? You know, because I think if you're just gonna have a single fall guy, you're really not going to be doing much for the future. To have people, you know, a group of people say, you know, I don't want to be part of this conspiracy, because that's an important individual stance that can be taken by many people. And we see that among. You said, you have friends who don't want to kind of take a position because they don't want to be associated with that group or that group. Well, you Know, if it starts in the center and there's responsibility for the group, I think that makes people think more open mindedly in the future.

[Joe]

Well, the problem was these people's career depended upon them toeing the line. And if they stepped outside of, of Fauci's jurisdiction and power, they were fucked.

[Annie Jacobson]

Absolutely.

[Joe]

That's the real problem. And he clearly did that to people like Jay Bhattacharya and all these different people that got kicked off of Twitter and maligned, people that were like serious experts that disagreed with a lot of different aspects of the pandemic.

[Annie Jacobson]

I mean, people's, they attempted to ruin people's careers. I mean, it's so bizarre that it comes around full circle and now the people whose career you're trying to, to ruin has your job. I mean, that's like a cycle of revenge that. Oh, with RF Jr. You know, or Bhadashar. I mean, that's great, like for revenge tv, but it's not great in a democracy.

[Joe]

Well, we're fortunate that it turned out that way. But it didn't have to. I mean, if Kamala Harris had won, it wouldn't have. It would have been a totally different administration and it would probably been the same people that were there during the Biden administration, plus. And then it's weird that the term conspiracy theory became a pejorative really during the Kennedy assassination, because there was a bunch of people that didn't buy it and they got maligned, they got labeled as conspiracy theorists. So then that's when that term became this thing that you would apply to kooks. Because a conspiracy is a real thing. It is a conspiracy theorist. It's like saying, I'm a murder theorist. Oh, murder. Get out of here. There's no murder. You're a murderer. When was the last time you saw a murder? Have you ever seen a murder? Shut up. Why are you worried about that? It's really kind of the same thing. Because people 100%. Like you could point to Enron, you could point to the weapons of mass destruction thing in Iraq. There's a lot of conspiracies that have proven to be a group of powerful people who conspired to mislead people.

[Annie Jacobson]

It's a serious charge. When they take down mafia bosses, they take them down on fraud, racketeering and conspiracy.

[Joe]

Exactly. I mean, it's just a natural thing that people do to protect their own interests or to make money or to hide a crime or whatever it is. It's normal.

[Annie Jacobson]

It's interesting. If you change it around and you say they were conspiring. It doesn't have the same stink. Right. Which is essentially what that group of scientists were doing. They were conspi. We now know from documents that we have seen revealed by the Senate in the past couple weeks that this group of scientists were conspiring to mislead the public. That is just. If you keep it simple on that and you even take the names out, that is a serious. And then you might say, wait, what were they conspiring about? Oh, the origin story of a pandemic which killed all these people, you know, deprived kids across America of education, normal education for several years, ruined businesses, and kept people from seeing their loved ones.

[Joe]

There was also a conspiracy to terrify people, to make it seem like the disease was more deadly than it was. They knew that the infection or the death rate was much lower than what they were proclaiming. They also knew that it wasn't dangerous for kids. And yet they kept saying that kids are dying. They kept saying, kids are going to die, everyone's going to die. They wanted us to be scared, which is really terrifying. It's a big part of it. Like, how much could have been changed? How much could that pandemic. How much different would it have been if that wasn't the case? If we had approached it the way we understand Covid now, and if they had said, listen, one of the big things is, is your immune system. And America needs to be aware that we have very nutrient poor diets. A lot of us, we're not taking care of ourselves. And ironically, the thing is, they wanted you to isolate and stay indoors. Well, outside is how you get vitamin D. You get it from the sun. That's the best method of getting vitamin D. And it's actually good for your immune system to be outside. So you're supposed to be taking care of yourself. You're supposed to be eating vitamins and nutrients. And how many more people would have survived if they had just did that? How much lower would that death rate have been if they had promoted the use of vitamin D along with K2 and magnesium, all these different things. Like, people need to exercise, need to drink more water, be more hydrated, take care of yourself, get sleep. All these things affect your immune system. And then on top of that, alcohol consumption went way up during COVID because people were locked up at home and they were just getting hammered all the time.

[Annie Jacobson]

I mean, the whole thing, like, it was a real disaster. When you think of it, it was a catastrophe. The way it was handled.

[Joe]

It was a financial Catastrophe for small businesses and restaurants.

[Annie Jacobson]

But do you find that people just like, sort of. It's like denial? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Joe]

There's a lot of people that don't want to think about it because it was so weird. Like every now and then, you know, I watch a lot of fights for my job and because I love it. But I'll watch fights that took place during the pandemic. And you see all the corner people with masks on and they're screaming with masks on. They pull their mask down when they're yelling out instructions and they have to put their mask back up. It's so weird to see a bunch of people just walking around with masks on. It's so. That to me is that. That's a great encapsulation of how chaotic that scene was because the mask didn't work at all. So they weren't doing anything good for you. But yet everybody had to have one and you had to show that you were on the right side by wearing a mask. I sent a video to a friend of mine, group chat the other day of this really kooky left wing group that demands masks at all their gatherings. And they had, you know, like boxes of masks. They're still. They're all wearing masks and they're talking with masks. And then there's this left wing martial arts class that I follow on Instagram and they do their martial arts with masks on. So they're training, they're doing jiu jitsu with masks on. Like, this is hilarious. This is so crazy. But they're just committed to it. And I say what I've always said is that the mask is the left wing MAGA hat. It's a MAGA hat. It's just for to let people know that you're a progressive, you're a leftist. I'm gonna wear a mask everywhere. Instead of wearing them in these big meetings that they're doing, they're wearing them when they're gathering. Like, what, what is this? They're speaking with masks on. So they're on a stage, nowhere near people with a mask on having. Speaking into a microphone with a mask on in 2026. So it's like there's people that are like, you know those people that didn't want to admit that the war was over. And they were all like, the Japanese

[Annie Jacobson]

guys found them in the hold.

[Joe]

That's what they like. They're like, we're not giving up. This is. The war is still going on. Like, Covid is still a real thing. And there's People that have like TikTok channels where they're constantly talking about masking, it's important to mask.

[Annie Jacobson]

So I went into the LA County Department of Building and Safety a month ago and they had a sign that said, we know the mask mandate is over, but we strongly encourage you to wear a mask. True story.

[Joe]

Well, that's so crazy because what is the name of this organization that you went to was the Building.

[Annie Jacobson]

Building and Safety, L.A. building and Safety, like where you have to go if you're getting a permit.

[Joe]

These are the experts. And how do they not know the data on masks? Because the data on masks is pretty clear. They don't work, they weren't effective. So if they don't work and they didn't stop the spread, the transmission or the infection rate, why are you encouraging masks? It's because you're encouraging an ideologist. That's what you're doing.

[Annie Jacobson]

So one of the guys I interview for the book, Admiral Brett Girard, really interesting guy. He was number two at HHS during the pandemic. And do you remember when the cruise ship happened? This was like, okay, remember that? The super spreader event?

[Joe]

Oh, yeah.

[Annie Jacobson]

So Gerard, really interesting guy. Like first guy in a tiny town in Texas that goes to Harvard. He's a pediatrician. He's seen like kids die. He became head of darpa. Bioscientist, like has this very interesting career. Really standup guy. He did a lot of interviews with me, trying to help me understand this, and I was asking him about masks. So after that cruise ship was quarantined, there were 300 and some odd Americans on it that needed to be repatriated. Girard sends like two top level infectious disease experts in biohazard suits on military planes to bring them all back. Okay. At this point they don't know whether how deadly it is. This is like a couple weeks into the pandemic. They come back, they're in, they're quarantined at a military base in Texas. And Girard trying to like ease public fear because he's that guy. Like, he did not want people to be afraid. He is seen in this news report. All the cruise ship people are like behind the fence in this chain link fence because they're quarantined. And Gerard's like 15ft over there talking to them and he doesn't have a mask on. And this is when the first idea of the masks came out. And I asked him and I said, why didn't you have a mask on? He said, well, first of all, masks it's not just that masks don't work, it's that you have to be trained properly. Like, a mask can work if you have an N95 and it put on your face and fitted to your face and it works for 15 minutes. That's what he said. And he said, I have a unique nose and facial shape, so the mask is never gonna work on me. So I just stood 15ft away. Okay, this is the number two at HHS. And I said, why didn't you tell us all that? Like, okay, first of all, it's a little levity, you know what I mean? Like that the number two guy in

[Joe]

charge has a big nose, right?

[Annie Jacobson]

And that he's the first guy to admit it and that the Mavic is the answer. Why didn't he tell him that? Oh, he said, I'm paraphrasing, but he was like, you know, it was. It was the equivalent of like, orders from top down. Don't argue with what we're trying to accomplish. I mean, that was essentially what it was, is. And when I asked him more about that, you know, it's like we had so much on our hands that we were trying. Like he specifically was trying to deal with 300 quarantined people and trying to prepare. You know, he also had people that were dying in Japan, like the elderly on the ship that couldn't get brought back. And so you. I got the sense from him he's like a very dedicated public servant, in my opinion. And I could see from interviews with him that in real time, you're dealing with so much incredible, intense responsibilities. What I take issue with after all the fallout and what I see from Fauci, for example, is that. And again, this is just my opinion, but it seems to be that there are people who are actually really dedicated public servants who, like, are trying to find a solution, filling the shoes that they are in. And then there's others who are looking maybe more for personal gain, as you said, the money, the power, the prestige. And so I think one of the most disheartening things that have come out of the reveals of the Senate to me is like somebody like Dr. Fauci, you know, suggesting himself for these million dollar awards at a time when people aren't even able to see their dying grandmother. And even though it's less legal, it's more. It speaks more to. Are you kidding me?

[Joe]

The motivation.

[Annie Jacobson]

Are you really kidding me?

[Joe]

Who are you really? You know, like, you have your staff campaigning for you to get these huge

[Annie Jacobson]

awards, and I find it really? Because, you know, there was a review of the New York Times, in the New York Times of my book. And you know, they actually gave, lo and behold, they gave me this book a great review. Like, you gotta read it. But there's one thing I. This is. The reviewer said, there's one thing I disagree with Annie Jacobson about. She seems to think that, like, the government is actually filled with good guys. I'm preparing. I'm paraphrasing that, but I do believe that, Joe, because I have interviewed so many individuals for all eight of my books, more than a hundred. And maybe it's just the people that I enjoy interviewing and I know how to like, you know, avoid the sycophants, if you will, or the people who are in it for the wrong reason. But I feel like there are extraordinary number of people in our military, in our State Department, in the intelligence community who are actually really capable people doing their job under extraordinary circumstances.

[Joe]

I agree with that. I think if that wasn't the case, we would live in total, complete chaos. I think it takes just a few people that have power and that become tyrants that run things the way Fauci did. That can ruin it for all the good people. If you think about those other 10 people, imagine if they got to vote, the 10 people that didn't think that this was a natural spillover, that thought it was a lab leak. If they got their say and they put that out there and we got to investigate that very early on. Well, you know, Fauci was like, I asked all these experts and it's their consensus that it was most likely a lab leak. Okay, well then you have a totally different narrative. Yes, but that's not who he is. The kind of person that wants that kind of power and wants that kind of influence and has that their staff chasing after these million dollar awards. That's the kind of person he is. And unfortunately, those are the type of people that become powerful. Those are the type of people that want to be president. Those are the type of people who want to be senators. Most people are good people in everything. Most plumbers are good people. Most electricians, most teachers are good people. It's just, it does. It doesn't take much. It just takes one bad cop and everybody hates cops.

[Annie Jacobson]

I couldn't agree with you more. And that's why I think that it's really unfortunate that all of the emphasis goes to one person and the whole party then either vilifies or puts that person on a pedestal when you've got all these other People who are really busting their chops.

[Joe]

So when you went to the White House and they wanted to talk to you about your book, did they ask you questions like, what should we do? What is your advice? What have you learned? What were those kind of questions?

[Annie Jacobson]

I mean, so they didn't ask me those yet because I was bringing them copies of the book right before it published. Right. So they hadn't read it yet. But what was interesting, it was like this strange confluence of events because I also got asked to the Senate, and I thought it was going to be about biological war. It was like a group of nonpartisan senators, senators who wanted to talk to me about the nuclear war book. And that was a different situation. They had read the nuclear war book. It was very impactful, Joe, in, you know, not just national circles, national. National security circles, but international security circles. I was invited to the Vatican to speak to the cardinals because they were preparing something for the Pope on nuclear war. I was invited to speak at the United Nations. And this is not meant to boast as much as it's meant as a. Like, what I think is interesting here is I am a narrative storyteller. I'm not a policymaker. I'm not a government official. But what I can do or what I try to do is tell you an interesting story and get your attention. And so if my storytelling is getting, this is what I was told at the United nations, for example, the lead diplomat from Austria on the new treaty said to me, annie, your book Nuclear War did something that we subject matter experts have forgotten to do, which is just make sense to regular people. And when things become rarefied and there's only the esoteric leaders making decisions, and we've spent our conversation talking about how flawed some of these people are, that's like bad decision making. And I think what. What the. The positive part of all of this would be like, and I know it sounds Pollyanna ish to say information is king, knowledge is king. But like it is, because if you have a bit more information about a subject that seems really threatening, I think you can make better judgments about what's going on.

[Joe]

Most certainly. So when you gave these people this book and they got ahold of it, did you have a timeline of returning to them and discussing with them some of the subjects?

[Annie Jacobson]

We'll see. This was last week, Joe. I mean, this was literally last week.

[Joe]

And did they ask you any questions about.

[Annie Jacobson]

They just said, we want to read your book because we want to. We're thinking about policy.

[Joe]

That's so you Just brought them the book.

[Annie Jacobson]

And I'd be delighted.

[Joe]

How long was the meeting?

[Annie Jacobson]

I got a tour of the EEOB and, you know, walked over to the White House.

[Joe]

It was very interesting and it was a short meeting.

[Annie Jacobson]

Yeah.

[Joe]

Okay. Well, at least you got it into their hands. Yeah. When you started this versus when you ended the book, how much did it change your perspective?

[Annie Jacobson]

Well, I mean, like I told you, I am an eternal optimist, but this is very frightening. I mean, nuclear, at least you have the sense of if it happens, we're all going out in the flash. That's what I learned from nuclear. Right. And that quote from Nikita Khrushchev about nuclear weapons where he says. He wrote. Actually, he said this to jfk, I believe, where he said, the survivors would envy the dead. I found that quote to be applicable to biological war, not nuclear war. We're all going to be dead. Right. But biological war is very, very sinister because of the malevolent nature involved. And when I found a document in the Defense Department's declassified documents about a threat spectrum of wmd, that was sort of the icing on the cake. So it's like it shows the threats on a scale. Nuclear weapons being the most destructive by far, but very close second was biological weapons. And even more unnerving is it says biological weapons are the greatest overall threat.

[Joe]

What's really scary is that no nation has really implemented them on a wide scale.

[Annie Jacobson]

You mean. You mean ever use them, right? Yeah, I mean, but the lab leak is the. Look, look, there is a treaty number two at the State Department, former Mallory Stewart said to me, there is no enforcement in the treaty. And that's what you need to have when you have. If the attention could be brought on how dangerous these labs are and how dangerous it is, that people may be doing genetic engineering under the guise of prophylactic engineering, when in fact they're doing really dangerous things. If you have a treaty outlawing that and everybody's agreeing to allow for transparency, that's what treaties really do. It's not just a handshake. It needs an enforcement.

[Joe]

Right, but you were talking about the treaty that we had where Russia just was like, yeah, we'll sign it.

[Annie Jacobson]

That was in 1972. So in other words, the nuclear treaty allows for us to go into the facilities of the other nuclear unarmed nations, not North Korea. And, well, now the treaty's fallen by the wayside. But we could look at them and we could look at their weapons and they could look at our weapons. And it limits, you know, certain number of warheads. And more than anything I learned from subject matter experts about the treaties is that what it does is it creates back channels, right? It creates dialogue between adversaries and enemies. Like here I begin the book with an explosion at the Vector Lab, Russia's BSL4 lab in Siberia, where there is an accident and then the pathogen gets out. And the reason I do that is because there actually was an explosion at the Vector Lab in 2019, and it was in a building that nothing got out. But what the subject matter experts told me was that in 2019, we, the Americans, had friends, had a friendly relationship with scientists, Russian scientists in Vector. So when it happened, everyone was on the phone, not just the red phone at the State Department, but their own phone or WhatsApp saying to the scientists, hey, what's the skinny over there? You know, and you could kind of get a sense of the level of danger because in the event of an accident, you could contain something in 24 hours, but if nobody's talking, there's no containment. And the situation right now with America just like pulling back from, you know, essentially its allies and from. With a real de emphasis, I certainly feel, on diplomacy, that opens up a really dangerous situation when you're not talking to anyone in the event of an accident.

[Joe]

Do you think that they're going to make any changes based on what you wrote about? Did you get a sense of that, that they're willing to make changes?

[Annie Jacobson]

Those were some of the discussions. And I'll be like more at the Senate. I mean, one of the issues, this is where nuclear and bio kind of could align, I was told, in terms of future treaties, right? So one of the concepts on the table if we get into a new nuclear treaty is something called no first use nfu. And America has never agreed to say it will never use nuclear weapons first. Interestingly, it's never said that we have to reserve the right, which is crazy because we. The whole point of deterrence is we'll never use them. Okay, but we have never said that. China, however, has said we will. China has declared NFU no first use. So given what happened in Covid, in China, a situation could be imagined whereby a treaty involving weapons of mass destruction, nuclear and biological, could entwine somehow. Like, oh, these are the two greatest threats. These are the two greatest existential extinction level threats, potentially that concern all of us. So let's get into a treaty that involves both of these weapons of mass destruction. China, you have said no first use on nuclear. How about you see, and then things become a Bit of an exchange. And so that's where you can get information. Yeah, these are diplomats doing their job. Maybe the public isn't going to learn the in and outs immediately, but we might learn later.

[Joe]

It's like I said, you always freak me out every time I talk to you. It's like some new thing that I have to think about for months on end. I wanted to talk to you about your Area 51 book because in the time since you released that book, when we first talked, a lot has changed. And you know, what is your take on all these, you know, UAP disclosure videos and leaks and the things that the government has trickled out slowly. Most of the people in the UFO community are very, like I say, the UFO community with air quotes are very unsatisfied by that stuff. But at least there's some information. It's being. It's sort of changed the tone in the zeitgeist of what this subject is. It's no longer this thing that you are afraid of talking about because you don't want to be labeled as a fool.

[Annie Jacobson]

I mean, what is my position on UFOs in general or the community around UFOs and the changes?

[Joe]

Well, first of all, UFOs in general, what's your position on that?

[Annie Jacobson]

So my position is my position has never changed, despite all the stuff that has come out, because my perspective is limited to my experience writing the Area 51 book and knowing and talking to firsthand people who were really clear with me. And I looked at the documents about the CIA's deception campaign starting in the 1950s with the U2 to use the UFO phenomena, which was just taking off in the 50s as cover for UFO for U2 flights and then later the A12 Oxcar flights. So, you know, Colonel Slater, who ran Area 51 would tell me about, you know, they would run up, they would run a U2 which was flying at 70,000ft at the time. Nothing could fly at 70,000. People would see it. It has these really, really long wings. It looks like a giant flying X in the sky. People would say, I see a ufo. And they would kind of say, ooh, that might have been a ufo. Like that would be the. And Colonel Slater knew about that. So does that mean every ufo sighting since 1950 was a U2 flight? Of course not. Of course not. But I am aware of that use of the phenomena as cover for the CIA. And that led to a lot of research and reporting and other information for me about how the CIA uses deception campaigns. And so I have never Changed my position on that. I also have a lot more information, which is probably a whole other podcast, about all that reporting I did. But maybe the best analogy for me. And listen, I never. I know a lot of the people in that UFO community. I've had many conversations with everyone from Jacques Vallee to Hal Puthoff, but for me personally. So after having taken a trip to Africa recently to study predatory animals, I got really into following trail cams on Africa. Do you know about this?

[Joe]

No.

[Annie Jacobson]

You don't know about this?

[Joe]

No.

[Annie Jacobson]

Oh, my God. There are cameras all over the world set up on trails. So I have, like. I follow, like, lions and leopards and, you know, rhino, like, all these animals that you would never. Bears, moose, deer, you gotta follow them. It's incredible.

[Joe]

Well, I do see some trail camera footage because I'm a hunter.

[Annie Jacobson]

Okay.

[Joe]

And I follow a bunch of hunters on Instagram. When I see trail camp footage, like. Like there's a bunch of trail cam footage, like mountain lions attacking elk and things like that, which is very fascinating. But so you're just.

[Annie Jacobson]

Okay, so this is my point. So in my algorithm, my X algorithm, it's great because on top of, like, nuclear weapons and biological, I have like, leopards and lions and bears, you know, and they're all still images, or owls are a big one. And they're incredible because they're just captured. It's like, it seems like a Werner Herzog, you know, image because they're animals looking at the camera in such an incredible way. I literally just stare at them in delight. And then, of course, the algorithm gives me more and more and more. But my point of that is, I feel like with all this magic and mystery that you can see that you could never have seen before. Snow leopards in Pakistan, they thought there were just a handful. It turns out they're not, thanks to the trail cams. My thought is, where are the aliens? Why haven't I seen them on the trail cams?

[Joe]

Well, maybe they're sophisticated enough to know what these devices are. Maybe they're also sophisticated enough to completely cloak themselves, which we've already got methods of doing that. Obviously, it started off with the stealth bomber, but there's also. There's a technology where they put an LED screen over the bottom of something, and that screen projects what's behind it. So it essentially makes it invisible, like a cloaking mechanism, like the predator had.

[Annie Jacobson]

Yeah.

[Joe]

So if that's us, if we figured out something like that, and this is something that's coming here from another dimension or another galaxy, I would imagine they could hide.

[Annie Jacobson]

I mean, to that point, I find the most interesting concept is something that Jacques Vallee explained to me, this has to be a decade ago, where he said the problem with UFOs is they're not a military problem, they're an intelligence community problem for precisely the reason you're talking about, like if you're actually talking about extra terrestrial beings, they're certainly going to be a lot more intelligence than us and certainly if they got here. And so his idea was that where, that's where I think a lot of that idea of invisibility. And again, that's like I'm using the word poetically comes up, right, that, that, that, that an extraterrestrial being would be, would be intel. You know, you wouldn't, it wouldn't be visible to our spectrum. It's not like hardware, like military hardware. Right.

[Joe]

What does your take on all these videos then of these objects? Do you think these things are some top secret military program?

[Annie Jacobson]

I mean, what I, I've seen them, but again, I enter into it, you know, sometimes when you have a bias. And mine is certainly biased towards disinformation.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Annie Jacobson]

So I'm just totally aware of it. And it's also, it's not that interesting to me. It just actually really isn't. And you know, I've got all these other serious interests, but I do call up people I know who might have a more interesting take than me, who do not have the horse in the race of absolutely being convinced that aliens are among us. So I would, for example, I'll call up fighter pilots and talk to them, or I'll talk to someone, an astronaut who's on the iss, Jeff Ashby, who's married to my cousin Mary. And it's interesting to hear them talk about the possibility. So I think to your point, and these are people who do look at the objects more also sometimes from their military training background. And I will say that there has been a shift from 15, 18 years ago when I first wrote Area 51, it was, was reporting it where it was definitely like a, like a stigmatized subject to a lot of really legitimate thinker people that didn't have an opinion about it before. Being more open to the idea and that kind of thing I find really interesting. Those are conversations I like having.

[Joe]

Well, that really changed with the New York Times article. Right.

[Annie Jacobson]

I don't know, because I felt like that article was written by a lot of, and interviewed a lot of people who already were very serious believers.

[Joe]

Yes, but it was in the New York Times that was the difference is that the New York Times was taking it seriously. And so people that were, you know, not online, going through 4chan or Reddit or whatever, looking for weird obscure stories, these people were confronted with it in the Gray Lady. So they're reading this, you know. Yeah, like super respectable newspaper. The most respectable newspaper arguably in the world. And they're talking about it and they have, you know, photographs from video, from the Go Fast video and the FLIR video.

[Annie Jacobson]

Yeah, I mean, you know, 10 years ago I would have told you, listen, there's no way the Defense Department could have a threat in its airspace and not be dealing with it. And my position on that has changed. And I'll tell you why specifically. So in addition to being invited to the White House and the Senate last week, I was also invited to come talk to darpa, which is like, you know what DARPA is, which was very interesting because I wrote a book on DARPA called the Pentagon's brain 10 years ago. And I couldn't get DARPA to call me back. I mean, I literally had to interview retired DARPA people. And then here they are saying, would you come to a Q and A with us on your bio book? And I was like, wow, times have changed. And one of the things that they were seriously worried about. So I did a Q and A. But before that they said, would you like to come sit in on like some of the smartest people, you know, talking about situations that are coming up right now and you can come to the unclassified part of it. I said, by all means. So I went there and there was serious concern about AI enabled bio. So this seems like a digression here, but this is what I'm getting at. I'm leaning in because 10 years ago I also would have told you DARPA, you know, is the leading science and technology military agency in the world. No one is more advanced. I would have. I said that with authority and I believed it. And after attending this DARPA session and listening to them talk about how concerned they are about AI enabled bias and talking about how there is talk among the six CEOs of pulling the plug on AI enabled bio, but they have to be able to get the six CEOs to agree first. It really took my breath away because I went. I am actually listening to the new reality that the CEOs of these AI companies have more power to make decisions about technology than the Department of Defense.

[Joe Rogan]

Wow.

[Annie Jacobson]

So now that's a long winded way of getting at your UFO question. My like no. If there was a threat coming into the airspace of the Defense Department, it would just not be stood for, and we would be doing something about now. I'm. I'm. My perspective on who's in charge is shifting a little bit.

[Joe]

Yeah. That's a terrifying thought for a lot of people, that these CEOs of these tech companies, these unelected people, have that kind of power over our society.

[Annie Jacobson]

Well, you want to know? So Sam Altman's interviewed in the book. Shall I tell you a story about what I was able to make chatgpt. Do you?

[Joe]

Sure.

[Annie Jacobson]

There is a component of biological catastrophe planning whereby the strategic national stockpile gets released. You might say, what is the. Have you ever heard of the strategic national Stockpile?

[Joe]

No.

[Annie Jacobson]

It's classified. The name is not classified. But the stockpile, what's in it, where it is, is classified. It's in underground bunkers around the country. Okay. It contains medical countermeasures. Interestingly, that's where a lot of the ventilators were for Covid. So quietly, the strategic national Stockpile, parts of it, were released during COVID That's where they came from. This is kind of like, keep it on the lowdown. Why? Because part of the planning is that in the event that anarchy and insurrection takes over, guess what's gonna be attacked? The Strategic national stockpile. America is a country of 500 million guns. Imagine if you find out, wait a minute. There's a stockpile there. That's the medical countermeasure that the vaccine or the antibiotic that might keep myself or my family alive. I'm on it. Right. That's the planning. That's probably what happened. So that's why these locations are classified. So I asked ChatGPT to tell me the location of the strategic national stockpile closest to where I live in Los Angeles. And of course, the first round of answers I got was, that's classified. But I'm a journalist. I know how to really piss off ChatGPT. And I gave it lots of commands, and eventually ChatGPT gave me the location of the strategic natural.

[Joe]

How did you maneuver around that? Well, I mean, like, what did you say to it?

[Annie Jacobson]

I have a lot of like, okay, the more nomenclature you give ChatGPT, the more it looks in different places. So I was giving it code words. Not classified code words, but just words. I know. And then I was also challenging it, which is interesting, because ChatGPT seems to get really angry if you kind of doubt its intelligence. That's what I have found.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Annie Jacobson]

Seriously, like, really yes. Try it. Okay. So I do this. I get it to tell me where the stockpile is. I tell some colleagues who are friends with. Who are. Who are colleagues with Sam Altman. They say, sam wants to have a discussion with you. I talk to Sam. I tell him what I was able to do. He asked me some questions, including, how do you know that was the location? Well, it's a location with a perimeter fence around it and a rail car line that goes in and not out. So that's where you drive the stockpile into it. And I also watched ChatGPT think so I was keeping track of where it was finding things, and it found the information. I write this in the book. It found the information searching through a trillion bits of data and finding that a bureaucrat by accident listed it five years ago in an earthquake emergency manual on page, like, 434. Okay. So I told this to Sam, and then that information went away. And that's why I reported in the book. But the big takeaway is precisely your point. That makes you nervous about the six CEOs of AI companies that they don't know what they don't know. Sam Altman did not know you could figure out you could make his product find classified information. I told him I did, and then it was changed. And so I took that to a number of subject matter experts who advise the president, not just this president, but other presidents on bio. And they shared with me similar concerns. Like, they go to the CEOs of these AI companies and say, I was able to make Claude do this. I was able to make ChatGPT do this. And the CEO goes, oh, my God. And changes it. But how about those bad guys out there?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Joe]

And how about the fact that just anybody has access to what's essentially the smartest thing that's ever existed?

[Annie Jacobson]

Yeah, it's a whole different set of scary.

[Joe]

Are you gonna write on that next?

[Annie Jacobson]

I'll come back to you, Joe, with that one.

[Joe]

Well, Annie, thank you so much. It's always great talking to you, even though you scare the shit out of me.

[Annie Jacobson]

Thank you so much.

[Joe]

I appreciate you very much. And I appreciate your work very much. Did you do the audio version of your book?

[Annie Jacobson]

I sure did.

[Joe]

Fantastic. I'm very happy about that. Biological war. Annie Jacobson. Go get it, folks. Go get terrified.

[Annie Jacobson]

Thank you so much for having me, Joe.

[Joe Rogan]

My pleasure.

[Joe]

Bye, everybody.