The Joe Rogan Experience - Episode #2237: Mike Benz
Release Date: December 3, 2024
Introduction
In episode #2237 of The Joe Rogan Experience, host Joe Rogan engages in a profound and unsettling discussion with Michael Shellenberger and Kurt Schlichter. The conversation delves deep into the intricate web of internet censorship, exploring its historical roots, current implementations, and the geopolitical strategies intertwined with it. The episode provides listeners with a comprehensive understanding of how government entities, private sectors, and non-governmental organizations collaborate to shape and control information flow in the digital age.
Guests' Background
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Michael Shellenberger: An influential author and environmental policy expert known for his critical views on prevailing environmental and political narratives.
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Kurt Schlichter: A seasoned commentator with a background in corporate law and experience working within the Trump White House. Schlichter has extensively researched internet censorship and its evolution over the past decade.
Main Discussion Points
1. The Genesis of Internet Censorship Efforts (00:16 – 03:53)
Kurt Schlichter outlines the origins of modern internet censorship, tracing it back to efforts initiated in 2014 amidst geopolitical upheavals in Ukraine. He explains that the U.S. government, leveraging organizations like the CIA and State Department, began promoting free speech as a tool of soft power across the globe. This initiative marked a significant pivot from direct military interventions to influencing narratives and information dissemination online.
"The promotion of free speech is sort of the flip side of promotion of free speech... when the Internet was privatized, it was initially a military project."
— Kurt Schlichter [02:08]
2. The Gerasimov Doctrine and Hybrid Warfare (04:08 – 07:25)
The conversation shifts to the Gerasimov Doctrine, named after Russian General Valery Gerasimov, which emphasizes the importance of controlling information and media narratives as a form of warfare. Schlichter discusses how this doctrine influenced NATO's strategies, leading to the formal incorporation of hybrid warfare tactics that extend beyond traditional military engagements to include information control.
"They took a quote from him saying, the new nature of war is no longer about military to military conflict."
— Kurt Schlichter [06:13]
3. Evolution of Censorship Infrastructure Post-2016 (07:25 – 16:30)
Following the 2016 U.S. elections, the censorship machinery intensified its efforts. The rise of populist leaders like Donald Trump prompted a shift in focus from combating foreign threats to addressing domestic populism. Schlichter details how entities like the Disinformation Governance Board were established to oversee and regulate online narratives, effectively blurring the lines between protecting democracy and suppressing dissenting voices.
"What they did is they argued that democracy has to be defended from demagoguery. Democracy needs guardrails."
— Michael Shellenberger [28:13]
4. Role of NGOs and the National Endowment for Democracy (16:30 – 30:52)
The discussion highlights the pivotal role of NGOs, particularly the National Endowment for Democracy (NED), in advancing censorship agendas. Schlichter explains how NED functions as a façade for CIA-backed operations, funding media institutions and activist groups to influence and control public discourse in various countries.
"The National Endowment for Democracy was created so that the CIA could effectively subsidize the groups without having CIA fingerprints on it."
— Michael Shellenberger [40:08]
5. Censorship in Action: COVID-19 and Election Interference (30:52 – 75:12)
Shellenberger and Schlichter provide concrete examples of censorship mechanisms in action. They discuss projects like Wisedex and Mitre Squint, which utilize AI and machine learning to identify and suppress "misinformation" across social media platforms. The COVID-19 pandemic served as a testing ground for these technologies, enabling authorities to control narratives around vaccine efficacy and pandemic origins.
"Mitre Squint for COVID 19 provides a fast, reliable way to report and counter Covid misinformation."
— Mitre Squint Promo [76:44]
Additionally, the conversation touches upon election interference strategies employed to marginalize populist candidates, ensuring that certain narratives dominate the political landscape.
"They argued that we need something to stop them from being able to combat our media influence."
— Michael Shellenberger [05:04]
6. Institutional Entrenchment and Resistance (75:12 – 99:08)
The guests discuss the challenges faced in dismantling or reforming the entrenched censorship infrastructure. They emphasize that the intertwining of governmental bodies with private sectors and NGOs has made these systems resilient and resistant to change. The acquisition of platforms like X (formerly Twitter) by figures like Elon Musk represents a critical juncture, offering a potential alternative to the prevailing censorship paradigms.
"This has not yet reached full maturity where we are at complete 1984 on all of this, but it is no longer in its infant stage."
— Kurt Schlichter [58:54]
7. Geopolitical Implications and Future Outlook (99:08 – 137:50)
The latter part of the episode explores the broader geopolitical implications of internet censorship. Schlichter and Shellenberger theorize that controlling information is essential for maintaining global hegemony, particularly in energy-rich regions like Eurasia. They argue that censorship acts as a weapon in economic and political battles, influencing elections and public opinion to safeguard national and corporate interests.
"We are an international empire because of the banana wars in the 1800s that gave the US vassalage control over much of South America."
— Michael Shellenberger [132:18]
Key Quotes
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Kurt Schlichter [02:08]:
"It started in 2014 with the Ukraine fiasco... promoting free speech around the world." -
Michael Shellenberger [28:13]:
"Democracy needs guardrails. We need bumper cars on democracy." -
Kurt Schlichter [40:08]:
"The NED was created so that the CIA could effectively subsidize the groups without having CIA fingerprints on it." -
Mitre Squint Promo [76:44]:
"Mitre Squint for COVID 19 provides a fast, reliable way to report and counter Covid misinformation." -
Kurt Schlichter [58:54]:
"This has not yet reached full maturity where we are at complete 1984 on all of this, but it is no longer in its infant stage." -
Michael Shellenberger [132:18]:
"We are an international empire because of the banana wars in the 1800s that gave the US vassalage control over much of South America."
Conclusions
Episode #2237 of The Joe Rogan Experience serves as a wake-up call regarding the pervasive and often covert operations aimed at controlling information flow on the internet. Through insightful analysis and compelling evidence, Shellenberger and Schlichter reveal how deeply ingrained censorship mechanisms are within governmental and corporate structures. The discussion underscores the urgent need for transparency, accountability, and public awareness to counterbalance these forces and preserve the integrity of free speech and democratic institutions.
Listeners are left contemplating the delicate balance between preventing harmful misinformation and safeguarding individual freedoms, recognizing that the tools designed to protect democracy can, paradoxically, become instruments of its suppression.
Note: This summary is based on the provided transcript and aims to encapsulate the essence of the podcast episode, highlighting key themes and statements made by the participants.