#2275 - Magnus Carlsen

Summary

The Joe Rogan Experience: Episode #2275 – Magnus Carlsen

Release Date: February 20, 2025

In this engaging episode of The Joe Rogan Experience, host Joe Rogan sits down with chess grandmaster Magnus Carlsen, accompanied by comedian Tony Hinchcliffe, a fervent chess enthusiast. The conversation delves deep into Carlsen’s journey, the evolving landscape of chess, the impact of artificial intelligence, and the personal philosophies that drive one of the greatest minds in the game.

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1. Introduction and Early Chess Experiences

The episode kicks off with a light-hearted exchange about coffee, setting a relaxed tone for the discussion. Rogan expresses his admiration for individuals who excel in highly challenging fields, using Carlsen as a prime example.

Interview Highlights:

• Starting Young: Carlsen begins his chess journey at around five years old, inspired by his father, an avid chess player. Initially uninterested, his passion ignited through a competitive spark with his sister.

  [00:55] Magnus Carlsen: "A couple of years later, my older sister... I really, really wanted to beat my sister as well at generally everything."

2. Cheating in Chess: The Anal Beads Controversy

A significant portion of their conversation centers around a controversial figure in the chess world accused of cheating using an unconventional method humorously referred to as the "anal beads" theory. Carlsen addresses the challenges of detecting cheating and expresses skepticism about this specific allegation.

Key Points:

• Cheating Methods: Carlsen discusses potential cheating mechanisms like invisible earpieces that are hard to detect in tournaments with lax security.

  [12:13] Magnus Carlsen: "...there’s an invisible earpiece that people use for exams and so on."

• Skepticism About the Theory: He dismisses the "anal beads" theory as disconnected from reality, emphasizing the lack of concrete evidence.

  [04:53] Magnus Carlsen: "But I really, really don't believe that that has happened."

3. Evolution of Chess Preparation and the Role of AI

The integration of artificial intelligence and computer engines has revolutionized how chess players prepare and compete. Carlsen elaborates on the advent of advanced engines like Stockfish and neural networks such as AlphaZero, highlighting their influence on modern chess strategies.

Discussion Points:

• Accessibility of Information: The ease of accessing chess information today has accelerated the learning curve for young players.

  [03:42] Magnus Carlsen: "...information is so easily accessible these days, it takes a lot shorter time to get good at something."

• AI’s Impact: Carlsen explains how AI not only assists in training but also introduces novel strategies that were previously unthinkable, pushing the boundaries of the game.

  [104:29] Magnus Carlsen: "It's just based on the game, games that it's played against itself... completely different ideas at times."

4. Carlsen’s Approach to Chess and Training

Contrary to the stereotypical image of relentless training, Carlsen describes his method as more relaxed yet intensely passionate. He emphasizes pattern recognition and intuition over exhaustive calculation, maintaining that enjoyment fuels his obsession and success.

Insights:

• Lazy Yet Obsessed: Carlsen is known for his seemingly "lazy" approach, yet he remains deeply engaged and continuously thinks about chess.

  [17:45] Magnus Carlsen: "I'm known a little in the chess world for being, like, a little bit lazy."

• Minimal Formal Training: Unlike many top players who adhere to strict regimens, Carlsen prefers spontaneous and enjoyable engagement with the game.

  [18:01] Magnus Carlsen: "But I think a lot of very good chess players do that, but like casual chess players, no?"

5. Blindfold Chess and Chess as a Mental Game

Carlsen shares his experiences with blindfold chess, describing it as a challenging yet impressive feat mostly reserved for top-tier players. He reflects on the cognitive demands and the prestige associated with mastering this aspect of the game.

Highlights:

• Skill and Memory: Playing multiple games blindfolded requires exceptional memory and focus, which Carlsen acknowledges as being akin to a "party trick" for the elite.

  [34:17] Magnus Carlsen: "I think I've played 12, but the world record is something like 50."

6. Chess vs. Other Activities: Video Games and Golf

The conversation transitions to comparing chess with other activities like video gaming and golf. Carlsen discusses the cognitive benefits and addictive nature of video games, while also highlighting his newfound passion for golf and its positive impact on his mental state.

Key Takeaways:

• Video Games: Carlsen recognizes the cognitive advantages but maintains a disciplined approach to avoid distractions.

  [44:08] Joe Rogan: "But I'm saying video games are not necessarily a waste of time."

• Golf as a Mental Reset: Embracing golf has allowed Carlsen to find balance and rejuvenate, enhancing his focus and energy for chess.

  [46:37] Magnus Carlsen: "I always thought that I would get into golf later in life... now I am obsessed and it's all I want to do."

7. AI and Chess Engines: Traditional vs. Neural Networks

Delving deeper into AI, Carlsen differentiates between traditional chess engines like Stockfish and neural networks such as AlphaZero. He explains how neural networks emulate human-like playstyles, offering insights into more dynamic and positional strategies.

Detailed Discussion:

• Traditional Engines: Known for their brute-force calculation and tactical prowess, these engines are indispensable for training.

  [104:29] Magnus Carlsen: "There are kids everywhere and they just like, they know their stuff so well."

• Neural Networks: These AI models offer a more human-like approach, sometimes making unconventional moves that challenge established norms.

  [114:29] Joe Rogan: "They would sometimes promote to a different piece... it's really funny."

8. Maintaining Peak Performance: Mental and Physical Fitness

Carlsen emphasizes the importance of physical health and mental clarity in maintaining top performance. He discusses his dietary habits, minimal use of supplements, and strategies to keep his mind sharp without overburdening himself.

Highlights:

• Nutrition and Health: Carlsen opts for clean eating to maintain focus and performance, avoiding excessive sugar to prevent energy crashes.

  [68:24] Magnus Carlsen: "I try to eat like one big meal before that, which is generally like a big omelet with some kind of salad."

• Vitamins and Supplements: While Carlsen personally avoids supplements, he acknowledges their potential benefits, highlighting a contrast with Rogan’s approach.

  [69:30] Magnus Carlsen: "I never take supplements or, or, or, or anything like that."

9. Personal Anecdotes and Stories

Interspersed with technical discussions, Carlsen shares personal stories that reveal his personality and experiences beyond the chessboard. From collaborating on a Norwegian rap song to humorous tales of arriving late to tournaments, these anecdotes offer a glimpse into his relatable side.

Notable Stories:

• Play Magnus App: Carlsen discusses the development of the Play Magnus app, which allows users to play against AI versions of himself at different ages.

  [117:24] Magnus Carlsen: "We actually did this back in. Back in the day. We actually started an app called Play Magnus..."

• Rap Collaboration: A lighthearted moment where Carlsen raps at the end of a song by Norwegian artists Mr. Pimp Lotion and Oral B.

  [136:41] Magnus Carlsen: "I just came in at the very end and solve the mystery."

10. Concluding Thoughts and Inspiration

As the episode wraps up, Carlsen reflects on the importance of passion and obsession in achieving excellence. He shares his gratitude for inspiring others and emphasizes the joy he finds in chess, encouraging listeners to find something they love deeply.

Final Insights:

• Passion Over Pressure: Carlsen advocates for pursuing activities that bring joy and fulfillment, suggesting that obsession, when rooted in love for the activity, leads to sustained success.

  [85:06] Joe Rogan: "What people want out of life is something that they love, that they do, that they're very good at, and they get recognized for it."

• Inspiration and Legacy: He expresses satisfaction in knowing that his success in chess inspires others to embrace and love the game.

  [87:10] Magnus Carlsen: "Maybe it helped them through, like, a difficult time to watch. To watch my games and to get into rediscover or find the love for the game."

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Notable Quotes:

• Magnus Carlsen on Starting Chess:

  “I think from there on, it really just became. Became my thing, and it's, you know, been my main hobby and eventually work as well since.”
  [02:07] Magnus Carlsen

• On Cheating Detection:

  “But I really, really don't believe that that has happened. Like I think it has no, no connection to reality...”
  [04:53] Magnus Carlsen

• On AI’s Influence:

  “Information is so easily accessible these days, it takes a lot shorter time to get good at something.”
  [03:42] Magnus Carlsen

• On Passion in Chess:

  “I just think for me, it's just the way that it works. And I do, like, process the information. So it's still, it's still a lot.”
  [21:54] Magnus Carlsen

• On Randomizing Openings:

  “I just have an app on my phone. It’s a roll the dice.”
  [67:29] Magnus Carlsen

• On Inspiration and Legacy:

  “Maybe it helped them through, like, a difficult time to watch. To watch my games and to get into rediscover or find the love for the game.”
  [87:10] Magnus Carlsen

Conclusion

This deep dive into Magnus Carlsen’s world offers listeners a comprehensive understanding of his approach to chess, the challenges he faces, and the evolving dynamics of the game in the age of AI and digital information. Rogan’s insightful questions and Carlsen’s candid responses create a compelling narrative that not only celebrates Carlsen’s achievements but also serves as an inspiration for aspiring chess players and enthusiasts alike.

Transcript

[Joe Rogan]

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

[Magnus Carlsen]

The Joe Rogan Experience.

[Joe Rogan]

Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. All right, we're up and rolling. Magnus Carlson, ladies and gentlemen. You want some coffee?

[Magnus Carlsen]

No.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, this is water. Tell Jeff to bring in the coffee. Forgot to bring in the coffee.

[Magnus Carlsen]

No, no, I'm good with water, but I need coffee.

[Joe Rogan]

I'm gonna keep up with you, buddy. And of course, Tony Hinchcliffe is here, who's a gigantic chess fan and just creamed his pants yesterday when I told him you were coming in. And then immediately I said, you got to come with me. And so Tony's here as well. It's an honor to meet you, man. I'm always fascinated by people that are at the top of something that's insanely difficult, like chess. And I'm always wondering, like, how much time is involved, how much. How often do you play? And when did you start? How old were you when you first started playing?

[Magnus Carlsen]

I think my dad. My dad is an avid chess player, so I think he thought that I might have some talent. So he thought he taught me pretty early at around five years old. But at that time, I wasn't that interested. I was mostly into Legos, and I was into maths and, like, sports stats, and I had my little flag book with all. All the countries in the world, their flags and their inhabitants and area and everything. And I sort of. That. That's what I did, generally. Just taking in all the. All the stats that I could also with with sports, reading the sports section every day. And I didn't find chess that fun. A couple of years later, my older sister, who's a year and a half older than me, she had. She did a lot of chess with. With my dad. I started sitting in on them a bit, and I. I started liking it. I really, really wanted to beat my sister as well at generally everything. And, yeah, from there on, it really just became. Became my thing, and it's, you know, been my main hobby and eventually work as well since.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, obviously. It's so funny, though, a spark, a competitive spark with your sister is really what ignited you to get going with it.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah, the funny thing is, like, she's not competitive at all. So she hated the fact that I, like. I wanted to play, especially when I. I realized that I could beat her and she liked chess, but she stopped for a while and only started when I had become good enough that there wasn't a competition. So it turned like my dad was right after all. I just needed that extra push.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. What a call. I think you've got some talent. What a call.

[Tony Hinchcliffe]

Grandmaster at 12, was it 13?

[Magnus Carlsen]

So actually the, the record is, the record is 12. But most kids these days, honestly they, they start so early. I was at a tournament in India a few months ago and there's this guy who's like a 1600 rated player and he's three years old. And like I'm seeing, I'm seeing, I'm seeing the games like they are actually, they're actually decent. And yeah, now there's this one kid from Argentina, like they call him the Messi of chess who's gonna become a grandmaster soon. I think he's only 10. So they're really, really playing early these days. But it's good to see though because information is so easily accessible these days, it takes a lot shorter time to get good at something.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, it seems like now chess, because of social media, it's like everything else, it's kind of explod. There's so many fascinating videos out. And then of course there was like the big controversy with that young man who you believe is a big old cheater, that guy. I need to know the anal beads thing, is that a legitimate theory?

[Magnus Carlsen]

So it actually started in one of my friends streamer channel that like one random guy said made. Made a comment about anal beads and he was, and he was like, yeah, maybe. And then I think became. It started taking the rounds and read it and then Elon saw it, tweeted about it and then obviously it blew up. I actually spoke to, I think it was Marc Andreessen who said like that would be one way to do it.

[Joe Rogan]

Yes.

[Magnus Carlsen]

But I really, really, really don't believe that that has happened. Like I think it has no, no connection to reality, but it just became a thing of its own.

[Joe Rogan]

So unfortunately, this young man. We'll explain the anal beads thing, but this young man is a very talented player, but does have a history of some shenanigans. Correct. And even admitted that he did a little bit of cheating in order to move his rating higher so he could play better players.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah, I mean he's not admitted to nearly the extent of his cheating, but if you sort of take what Chess.com say, then yeah, he cheated a bunch online in a certain period of time, partly in tournaments, but mostly in, in casual games as he set himself to sort of get himself up the standings and play the best players in the world.

[Joe Rogan]

But he is a very good player.

[Magnus Carlsen]

I think he has become a very good player. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Interesting. Okay, so what made you convinced that he was cheating in that particular game. And by what method do you think he could possibly have been doing this?

[Tony Hinchcliffe]

Could you hear something? Was it like burnt. You're hearing vibrations. He sees his seat shift, smelling something. There's a wave of something in the air.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah, I mean that would have been, would have been the smoking gun, I suppose. I think there was a combination of things though, based on the chess level that I thought that he had and that I'd seen from his game, both playing against him, analyzing a little with him and looking at his, at his other games. There were a lot of stories back then. The thing is also there's, there's a Netflix documentary coming in a few months that sort of ex, where I'm telling my side of the story. So I like, I kind of go too deep into, into everything. But what I can say was that there were, there were a lot of factors that made me very, very suspicious and I think ever since then he has become better. But there's some, still something, there's still something off both then and now.

[Joe Rogan]

But that's so fascinating that as an elite chess player you'd be able to recognize that something is happening that's outside of his capabilities.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Again, I'm not ruling out the factor that chess players are becoming more and more paranoid because we do have chess engines that basically have perfect chess. Right. Like anybody with their, their phone can, as I think Elon tweeted to, to Gary once, like my iPhone can beat you at chess. Which is, which is, which is the truth. And this means that you know, anybody having access to information, it's, it's incredibly, it's incredibly dangerous. And I think top level chess has been a lot based on, on trust. And whenever you have outsiders whom there are these stories about everybody gets a bit, a bit jittery. There's like people who either like they burst onto the scene then they establish themselves and people know that they're legit and so on. It's not a problem with him specifically. I don't know. It was, it's just he doesn't seem to be playing or it didn't at that point seem to be playing with, with a particular style. It seemed that he either played kind of eh, or he just more or less played any position very well in, in certain games. Like he could just switch from tactical to positional play very easily. And it was, yeah, it didn't, didn't smell good to me. It's still, it still doesn't but you know, to some extent like he, he had his, he had his lawsuit. We've all kind of moved a little bit on I think. I don't trust him. A lot of other top players still don't trust him. He certainly doesn't doesn't trust me or chess.com or hikari or whomever he felt wronged by.

[Joe Rogan]

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[Magnus Carlsen]

Well, first of all, like an invisible earpiece that people use for exams and so on. Like so.

[Joe Rogan]

But he would have to have a partner.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah, he would.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Magnus Carlsen]

That would not have been detected by the security system that they. They used at that tournament. They amped up the security after the whole thing happened.

[Joe Rogan]

Check your ears.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah, yeah, they start checking their. Our ears. And then, you know, we had a live tournament in. In Paris last year where I played him, where there was proper security, where all of these things would be picked up. And he didn't, like, he didn't play to nearly the same. To nearly the same level there. So I think. Well, I'm not an expert in all of that, but that's what I've heard from people. That that's like the most obvious thing that it could have. That someone could have done, and it wouldn't be really that hard to pull off considering the kind of security we have at chess tournaments. And this tournament had, like, a little bit of security. A lot of them, like open tournaments, people are, like, wandering in and out of tour playing hall. There are people in the playing hall, like spectators with their. With their smartphones on and taking pictures or. Or whatever, like, going in and out. Like, they could make signals. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's hard. It's. It's a big problem in chess, for sure.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, the. So the anal beads thing for. People don't know what we're talking about. The. The theory was that he had vibrating anal beads that would somehow or another, through some sort of code, explain to him the moves. And I've thought about this for a lot longer than I care to admit. Like, what. What kind of code are you getting from inside your butt that you're like, okay, got it.

[Tony Hinchcliffe]

Well, it would be like, you know, C4 or whatever. Like, it could tell you.

[Joe Rogan]

But how would it say it in your butt, though?

[Tony Hinchcliffe]

Well, I mean, it's more scratch. I'd have to show you.

[Joe Rogan]

Luckily, I brought one.

[Tony Hinchcliffe]

Yeah. So I'm in right now. No, it would be like. It would. It would buzz, right? It would buzz the letters and then the numbers that would indicate where you would move, and there would only be a piece or two.

[Joe Rogan]

So, like, the first three vibrations would be letter C, and then. Yeah, okay.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah. It's just a sort of technological version of ways people have cheated before. There was a scandal back in 2010 where the captain of the French team was helping one of his. One of the French players by cheating. He was basically just standing in certain spots around the table to tell him where to. Where to move.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, wow.

[Tony Hinchcliffe]

That's crazy.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Oh, wow.

[Joe Rogan]

Dirty people out there.

[Tony Hinchcliffe]

This is wild.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, it's such a competitive thing. Whenever you have competitive things, you always have people that just want to win at any cost, right?

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah. It's also funny that one of his teammates from that tournament worked with me for a long time, and he told me, like, this guy was like, going out every night, not taking the tournament seriously at all. But yeah, he had a good reason. Like, he knew he's gonna.

[Joe Rogan]

He's partying.

[Magnus Carlsen]

He knew he was gonna win.

[Joe Rogan]

That's hilarious. So that. Is that the most egregious form of cheating that you've ever seen or heard of?

[Magnus Carlsen]

No, I actually played an open tournament in Denmark about 20 years ago where there was a guy who was playing grandmaster in the first round. Like, this is not a very good player. And he was. He came drunk to the table and just literally pulled out his phone and opened a chess program. But of course, like, he was immediately. So that wasn't, of course, nearly as nefarious, but.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, that's just a moron. Yeah.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah, he was just. Probably some other issues there.

[Joe Rogan]

There's just such a. It is such a fascinating game because it's impossible to play if you're dumb. Like, there's games that you could just be a savant, like an idiot savant, but chess is like, it's the most impressive thing for people to be unbelievably good at.

[Magnus Carlsen]

I don't know, I think you can be. I think you can be dumb and be like, fairly good at chess. I think it, like, some intelligence certainly, certainly helps. But after all, you. A lot of chess is about learning patterns, right? And basically anybody can. Can do that. So like applying them at a higher level, learning how to evaluate and so on. That sort of is what sets the really the best players apart from merely good players. But I feel like anybody could become quite decent at. At the game. But I do love the fact that, you know, there are no coincidences, like, there are no outside factors. Well, if you. If you don't talk other than cheating, of course. But it's just, yeah, you're either outsmarting your opponent or you're getting outsmarted.

[Joe Rogan]

So for a guy like you that excels above all, what is the difference in your preparation? Is it just simply who you are as a person, you think? Or is it something about the difference in your preparation without giving away any secrets, Obviously.

[Magnus Carlsen]

I'm, like, known a little in the chess world for being, like, a little bit lazy. I think the. The thing Is that I. Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

What do you mean lazy? Like, how is that possible?

[Magnus Carlsen]

No, the thing is, like, I've never been the kind of person who wakes up in the morning, works six, seven hours and chess like a normal, a normal job. And then because a lot of them study computers. Yeah, exactly. Like I've, I think about the game all the time. Like I play online. I, I look at, I look at games. I may read some.

[Joe Rogan]

Do you play anonymously?

[Magnus Carlsen]

I used to do that all the time.

[Joe Rogan]

What a bloodbath that must be.

[Magnus Carlsen]

But, but I think I got humbled one time by this Russian grandmaster who asked somebody else, asked me like if a certain account on a certain website was me. And I was like, yeah, I don't know, like I don't know who that is. And this guy went like, yes, that is you. And he listed up like five other accounts that I thought nobody knew about. Oh wow.

[Joe Rogan]

By the way you play.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah, I think it's playing strength, playing style, because I tried to switch up my openings on different accounts to not make it obvious that it's me. And I have a style where I switch that up a lot so it makes it a bit easier. But I think you could just tell by the playing style.

[Joe Rogan]

So that is crazy.

[Magnus Carlsen]

These, these days I just, I play with my, my own name. I like, I'm, I don't really care about that anymore.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. So do most professional players study chess all day long? At the highest level?

[Magnus Carlsen]

I think, I think quite a few do. I mean, I don't know, like people's day to day activities.

[Joe Rogan]

So you guys don't talk about it?

[Magnus Carlsen]

Not that much. The people that I've worked with, they certainly study chess a lot, but others, I'm not quite sure. The thing is that chess has always like still been a bit of a hobby for me. That once it start, starts to feel like work, then it's, it's, it's harder for me. I had a, I had a chess coach when I was, when I was little. I went to have sessions once a week, which I loved. And then he started giving me homework. And yeah, I told him like quickly, like, I don't like homework, but I would, but I would still spend a lot of time like reading books, playing online, the things that I still do, but I would do them for fun. And that was the difference between me and the other kids is that they would go to chess practice, they would maybe even do their homework, but they weren't living and breathing sort of the game that, that in the way that I was like, I think about it all the time. Like, I'm thinking about the game while I'm sitting on. On this chair. Like, I'm still analyzing a game that I played today. Like, it never goes completely out of. Out of my mind. And I think a lot of very good chess players do that, but like, casual chess players, no? Of course.

[Joe Rogan]

So maybe the thing is discipline versus enthusiasm. Enthusiasm causes obsession and enjoyment, which probably leads to better retention of information, whereas just pure discipline for the sake of, like, I have to do the work in order to get better. You're missing this enjoyment, you're missing this enthusiasm for it that you have managed to. Although absorbing so much information and playing all the time, you've managed to keep it playful and fun.

[Magnus Carlsen]

I think so. I think this is definitely the way that works for me, maybe for others. I think for anybody. Like, if you want to be great at something, you have to be obsessed with it.

[Joe Rogan]

Yes.

[Magnus Carlsen]

And, yeah, it has to come from within. Like, nobody can. Yeah, maybe in certain sports you can get. You can get that good purely by very, very targeted practice and a lot of. Lot of hours. But yeah, I think for me, it's just the way that. It's just the way that it works. And I do, like, process the. Even though I don't necessarily study, like, I don't. Don't deliberately practice all the time, I still process the information. So it's still. Whatever, whatever the method is, it certainly works.

[Joe Rogan]

But it's interesting because you've been able to excel above so many. And it makes me wonder, like, I always am fascinated by some, whether it's a Tiger woods or whether whatever the athlete is or whatever the game they play, what separates the very best from everyone else. Like, I know in martial arts there's a series of factors that have to do with genetics, training, coaches, sparring partners, and then ultimately discipline and drive. But with chess, it's all mental. Physical has nothing to do with it. So do you think it's a genetic thing? Do you think you have a unique mind for chess? Is it. Do you think it's this balance that you keep with enthusiasm and obsession? Like, what do you think separates you from everyone else?

[Magnus Carlsen]

I think it has to be a variety of factors. I think there's no doubt that I'm incredibly, naturally gifted at the game. Like, otherwise I wouldn't have come this far. And my dad is incredibly good with numbers. He started playing chess quite late, but became decent. Like, my mother was quite smart and my. My sisters are very intelligent too. So, like, it's clear that, you know, there are some good, good genes. And I just, you know, I happened to find also an environment early on where I lived near Oslo which had the. Probably the best chess environment there was in Norway, at the very least, where there were. I had access to coaches and I had access to like, a little training group of, of other ambitious kids. After that, you know, I think the most important thing that I've. That I've done is that I haven't really listened to people who want me to do things like, a certain way because that's the way things have always been done, especially with the Soviet chess school that was the dominant one for, for so many years. So I've always sort of gone my own way, tried to have as much fun. Everything has to be about enjoyment. And yeah, I cannot tell you why, but I just, like, understand the game better, better than the others. Like, I, I'm. I don't calculate necessarily as far as the other, but my intuition, like for short lines, constantly evaluating is. It's just. It's just better.

[Joe Rogan]

It's just. It's always just such an interesting thing to analyze, like high performers, you know, and just to wonder, like, what it is that separates high performers. When you say your father started playing late, how old was he?

[Magnus Carlsen]

Oh, I think he started playing about 14, 15, something like that in chess. That's, that's very. But he never, he never liked. Took it. Took it seriously enough that he wanted to, like, he pursued it, but as a hobby. As a hobby.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, you. When you say take it seriously, you mean, like, you do? Yeah. Right. This is what makes me think about epigenetics. Like, we still don't exactly know how much information is transferred between parents to children. And it seems like there's a lot of talents, whether it's like singing talent or sports talent, that you have to wonder, like, is that coming from genes or is that coming from the environment which this child grows up, which this person. Or is it a combination of all those factors? Like, I wonder if someone gets really. A very intelligent person, gets very good at chess early on. I wonder if some information or some proclivity for the game gets transferred.

[Magnus Carlsen]

I think the reaction in the chess community, at least with certain people, was more along the lines of, how could such a lousy player have such a good son at chess with my dad. And the fact is as well that there are practically. No, there are many couples of, you know, like, both mother and father are grandmasters in chess, but I don't think any of them have had sons or daughters that are grandmasters. So interesting. Whereas you see anywhere, like in the NBA or the NHL or in football or wherever, like, it happens all the time. So I don't. I cannot say exactly why that is, but it does suggest that, you know, it's not a given, at least with genetics, that your. That your children are. Are going to.

[Joe Rogan]

I have an alternate theory for that. I wonder if you're a child and your parents are absolutely obsessed with the game, if it's annoying and you're like, fuck this game. Like, I want to go play in the park, and my parents don't even pay attention to me. This is bullshit, right? You know, like. Like there's a. Of alcoholics that will not drink. They won't even try it because they've seen the effects of it. I wonder that if it's like, you see, because chess is an obsessive game. Like, I remember when Howard Stern was playing it, and I would listen to him talk about it on the radio and about how he started hiring a coach and he was playing all the time and he's improving his rating and this. And I was like, oh, this is eating up your mind. Like, it's a game that gets in your bones.

[Magnus Carlsen]

It really does. Because, like, the entry is not so easy, right? Like, you don't, like, just get it immediately. And you don't necessarily get enjoyment out of it immediately as you start to play. So you have to spend. You have to spend time on it. And then I think when you're trying to do something hard, then it becomes much more rewarding, and it becomes. It's easier for that to become an obsession when you start to get that reward.

[Joe Rogan]

So the good thing about that controversy with cheating was that I think it elevated the profile of chess because it became mainstream news. It was like a big issue. I think there was a positive aspect of it in terms of the publicity of the game. Do you agree with that?

[Magnus Carlsen]

Oh, yeah, for sure. I think for any field of. That's trying to achieve something publicity, there's always going to be a little bit of a negative with what exactly we're. We're connected with, right? Because this is. Everybody knows chess and cheating, but overall, I think it's been. It's been massively, massively positive. You know, hopefully the. The Netflix thing going coming up in a year. Even though, like, explain it to people. Yeah, it's a Netflix Untold documentary. So basically it's a series of sports documentaries, and they're doing that. It's not something that I like wanted to necessarily be. Be part of. But I do recognize the fact that these things raise the profile of, of, of the game. And, and you see now like every. Everywhere, people. People like it. Chess is showing up in people's algorithms on YouTube, TikTok, Instagram, everywhere. So it's just like much more in the, in this ice guide than it used to be.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, it's certainly showing up on mine. It shows up on mine. All yours, right?

[Tony Hinchcliffe]

Oh, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, you've always been a giant chess fan.

[Tony Hinchcliffe]

Well, it's actually a newer thing, but when I, when I got into it, it was just everything. Now it's what I do right before bed. I fall asleep. Usually I fall asleep during actual games, online, on my phone.

[Magnus Carlsen]

You're driving him crazy. How could that, like, how could that happen?

[Tony Hinchcliffe]

I'm exhausted.

[Magnus Carlsen]

What do you do when you wake up?

[Tony Hinchcliffe]

Oh, that's, that's. Yeah, no, it's total.

[Joe Rogan]

You wake up and you laugh.

[Tony Hinchcliffe]

Yeah, no, I. I wake up and I look at the board and it said you resigned. Because I went over my time or whatever. I just ran out of time.

[Joe Rogan]

How many times have you resigned?

[Tony Hinchcliffe]

It happens in embarrassing, a lot amount. It's how I fall asleep now is playing chess. But what you will appreciate is that when I fall asleep playing chess, like when I fall asleep, I'm still playing the game in my dreams sometimes. And sometimes the game will go all night and it'll be like this never ending game and pieces will pop back up that have already gone.

[Magnus Carlsen]

That sounds amazing. Like, I would, like, obviously that would never happen to me. Like I, you know, I like to play a game of chess on my, on my, my phone or my iPad. Whenever I have some. Whenever I have some time. Especially like if I know that I have 15 minutes or whatever. And then if something comes up, like my wife tells me, like I have to be somewhere, I have to do something. It's like, can you just finish the game? Like, no, I cannot resign the game.

[Tony Hinchcliffe]

Right.

[Magnus Carlsen]

What are you talking about?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, yeah, obviously that's different though.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

You can't just resign. That's. No, you got to ride that bitch out.

[Tony Hinchcliffe]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

This episode is brought to you by Zero day, a new Netflix limited series. This conspiracy thriller is about a devastating cyber attack that downs America's infrastructure. Take a listen. Thousands died on Zero day.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Congress is authorizing a special Zero day commission.

[Joe Rogan]

You're just going to grab people off the streets without words?

[Magnus Carlsen]

Actually, you are.

[Joe Rogan]

I run this investigation. Not the White House, not the CIA.

[Tony Hinchcliffe]

If the public Finds out how deep this really is.

[Joe Rogan]

I don't think we survive. Foreign is absolutely legendary in his first TV series, and you don't really know if he's the good guy or the bad guy till the end. Zero Day has an incredible supporting cast, including Angela Bassette, Jesse Plemons, Lizzie Kaplan, and Connie Britton. Zero Day is now playing only on Netflix. Yeah, that would be, like, psychologically torturous, right?

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah, especially if it. If. Especially if I'm playing somebody whom I'm. Who is a little bit of a rival. It's like, yeah, no, that's not gonna happen.

[Joe Rogan]

No chance.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Because, like, every time, like, I lose games, it's a little bit of a story. Right. In the chess world, so I prefer to happen as seldom as possible.

[Joe Rogan]

I played a little bit of chess when I was young, but I never really got into it. But my real introduction where I got fascinated with chess was actually at a pool hall, because people in the pool hall would play chess sometimes. But there was this one guy who went to jail, and in jail, he learned how to play chess with his head in his mind. And then there was a young kid who was a grandmaster who was like, 16, 17 years old, somewhere around that really, really good chess player who kind of, like, lost his way and started hanging around in pool halls and gambling and being a weirdo. And I watched these two guys play chess with just words. And I was like, what are you doing? Like, what? I was like, I think I was 22 or 23 at the time. And I was like, what are you doing? And they're explaining to me that they're playing chess memorizing the board in their head. And I'm like, that's fucking crazy. And then I saw a video of you blindfolded, playing. How many people. How many. How many people did you play? Was the most people you've ever played blindfolded?

[Magnus Carlsen]

I think I've played 12, but the world record is something like 50. It's. That's. That's crazy.

[Joe Rogan]

Like, 12. You played 12 people blindfolded?

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah, for me, that's. As long as people are. The people I'm playing are kind of decent at chess. That actually kind of make. That makes it easier, because it's easier to store the games when I recognize the patterns and so on. When people start making weird moves, I kind of really recognize. Oh, so this is another one, actually. This is a blindfold timed symbol. Like, there are fewer games, but what's difficult about these is that the moves do not come to me in a Sequence. So like the presenter will tell me on board two, E takes D5 and then all of a sudden on board one, E6 and then on board two again and so on. So, so that makes it a bit.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, so you have to jump back and forth. So in the other games there's a sequence where the player, even though if they know what move they're going to take, they must wait until their turn.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Exactly. That's kind of the normal way of playing a simul. I think the last time that I played a proper blindfold simul was at an event in Vienna back in I think 2015. And then I had some very nice but spicy Chinese food before the game. I sat down and like my stomach was acting up. I couldn't think. So I played for 10 minutes. I realized that I cannot do this. I ran away for 15 minutes and then I came back. I finished the game. But ever since that it feels like I've like I've done it but it. And now it just seems incredibly, incredibly hard to, to do again.

[Joe Rogan]

But do you prepare when you're doing something like this? When you're getting ready to do a blindfolded multi game thing?

[Magnus Carlsen]

No, not really. Because it's like if, if my mind is on then it's really not that hard, I feel. So no, I, the preparation that I do is right there. I see my, my opponents. So like I sign a certain face to a certain seat, like a certain number and, and so on. So that's just about what, what I, what I do.

[Joe Rogan]

So you assign their face and you think of their face as they're playing?

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah, yeah. Face like number one. It's that position, right? Yeah. And so on.

[Joe Rogan]

And are you, what are you seeing in your mind when you're envisioning the table? When you're, when you're looking at the board, are you, are you merely thinking of positions? Are you actually thinking of the pieces? Like how are you breaking it down?

[Magnus Carlsen]

No, I just see the chessboard in my head.

[Joe Rogan]

Just see a completely like 3D chessboard in your head?

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah. So it's. And then when I'm playing a simul, I just really think about one at a time and I kind of store the others away.

[Joe Rogan]

But that's so crazy. Like when you're five, six moves in and you're thinking of all these pieces moving around and you've got it remembered, you've completely memorized each position of 12 different boards.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah. So like the difficult part of it that, where things sometimes go wrong, is that so generally I remember all the games that I've played, but I don't remember every move. I remember, like, the. In broad strokes, what happened. And this is what can happen in these blindfold games as well. Sometimes, like, I can remember everything that's going on, but maybe there's a pawn on the side that I cannot remember if it moved one square or not. That's the thing that can be. That can be difficult. And I do. We used to have these blindfold, like, professional tournaments, actually, that used to be, like, both fun, but also totally exhausting. And then we would play on a computer, so we'd have, like a blank. Like a blank chessboard where we would just click from one square to another, and then whenever your opponent moved, their move would pop up on the screen. And I've had. And also the software will tell you if you're making an illegal move. So I've had people lose track, and then you see them just clicking frenetically, trying to figure out what the position was like. There was one guy whom I played, he thought his rook was on a certain file, and if it was on that file, he would be able to save a draw. So I think he tried every single rook move on that file, hoping that the rook was there. But, like, obviously I knew that it wasn't. But. Yeah, overall, I feel like, honestly, like, blindfold chess is a bit of a party trick in the sense that for the very top players, it's not that hard. But obviously for non, like, serious chess players, it seems incredibly, incredibly hard. But I'm sure that, for instance, like, solving Rubik's Cube is really, really easy for those who know how to do it quickly. Right. But it still looks incredibly impressive for outsiders.

[Joe Rogan]

Have you seen they used a computer with AI to do a Rubik's Cube in less than a second?

[Tony Hinchcliffe]

No, I didn't see.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Wow.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. See if you can find it, Jamie. It's crazy. It just goes. It just spins it.

[Tony Hinchcliffe]

I've never figured that shit out. That's crazy.

[Joe Rogan]

It's a. There's a sequence of moves. If you follow a sequence of moves, you can actually get it to do it automatically.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Huh?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. Someone explained it to me once and they did it and I was like, what? I don't remember what it was because I don't give a fuck. Yeah, it was just like eight, eight times this way, eight times that way, eight times this side. And you just keep doing it and then eventually it'll be all flattened out a certain point in time. Yeah. But this computer does it like you.

[Tony Hinchcliffe]

Do Rubik's Cube too?

[Magnus Carlsen]

No, no, no, no. I. I'm talking out of my ass. Like, I. I think the world record is only like three seconds or something. Like, it's. It's something absolutely insane.

[Joe Rogan]

Imagine the time you could have exped building a business, raising a family. The world record, all the Rubik.

[Tony Hinchcliffe]

Yeah. Green, red.

[Joe Rogan]

So dumb.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah, well, we. We all have.

[Joe Rogan]

Watch this. Watch this computer do it.

[Tony Hinchcliffe]

Wow.

[Joe Rogan]

How crazy is that? Ready? Way go. Yeah. Less than a second. Wow, that's crazy. Show it again in real. So give up, kids. Give up. Give up. The computer figured it out. That's. That's a dumb game. But do you play other games as well?

[Magnus Carlsen]

No, not that. Not that much. My parents sort of brainwashed me when, When I was young into thinking that computer games are no fun and.

[Joe Rogan]

Really?

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

But you're a grown man now. You've realized that's a lie.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah, yeah, I have, but it's.

[Joe Rogan]

I could see you. Call of Duty. People up, no headphones on.

[Magnus Carlsen]

The thing is, like, the thing is like, I actually got a. I got a PlayStation recently, but like, my. My wife is playing GTA and all of these FPS games, and I'm like, playing some, you know, chill FIFA or something. So. But. But the thing about that is that I didn't really spend that much time on those. Those things when I was. I was little, which I think was a good thing. Like, I was doing some sports and I was doing a lot of. Lot of chess. Not so much school, but I kind of found time for everything else, and I think it was an important part of my chess education as well that I think some of the kids today are missing, that I actually learned chess on a physical board. I was able to practice from a fairly young age playing online, but I wasn't allowed to use the computer for more than a couple of hours a week. Right. So I had to spend that really well playing chess. Otherwise I would just sit there with. With my board, with my books, and, you know, try and figure things out.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. The thing about video games is the narrative was always, video games are a huge waste of time. And if you do it, you're not going to get anywhere in life. The problem with that is now people make a lot of money playing video games. And they've also shown that there's some. There's some benefits from video games that leak over into other things. Like, for instance, they found out that surgeons who play video games regularly make. Was it like 25% less errors? It's 37%, 37% less errors. That's a. Like, I would feel like if there was a factor in medical school and they said, well, if you do not do this, you will make 37% more mistakes, they would force you to engage in that. Whatever it is. It's like, whatever particular discipline that was, like, if you want to be a surgeon, you must do this. I would say if you want to be a surgeon, you should fucking play video games. Because these people are 37% less likely to screw up an operation.

[Magnus Carlsen]

That's why I'm not a surgeon.

[Joe Rogan]

But I'm saying video games are not necessarily a waste of time. And they've also shown there's cognitive benefits that can be gotten from playing video games on a regular basis. Things that. Which does make sense, but it just. It seems like a frivolous pursuit, whereas chess is like a noble and very respected pursuit.

[Magnus Carlsen]

I'm glad you say that. Like, we've. We've officially that that is what chess has, though, that it. It is very respected among the general population, and it does have that different standings from a lot of other games. It's like, I'm not here to shit on video games for sure. I know, like, you do that there are studies that show that it can be helpful. I think with anything, if you obsess over something, the only thing you will become good at is that particular thing. Like I have with chess. I just think for me specifically, for me specifically, it was probably a good thing that. That made me just sit and focus on chess rather than. Rather than do all sorts of other things.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, most certainly. Because video games are very, very addictive. I had to stop playing video games. We used to have a whole local area network at our old studio. We'd all play Quake, and it was a real problem. Like, I just wanted to end the podcast so I could go play Quake. And then we play for hours. And eventually got to a point where I was like, okay, I gotta quit again. Just cold turkey. Never again. Leave it alone, because they're just too fun. And if you have other things, you have obligations like chess, like, you're an actual professional chess player. Call of Duty or whatever, you're playing Quake, it's gonna eat your time.

[Magnus Carlsen]

I remember, like, when. When I first moved out, you know, I was technically a chess professional, but I didn't have a lot of time to. Yeah, I had a lot of time to kill when I. When I was home, so. And I got myself a PlayStation. Played a ton of FIFA back then. And there was. There was a GameStop near me that like they, they made a lot of money of me just buying new controllers all the time because I would throw them into. To the wall. But I have that same personality that I become. Become obsessed with things and then I same, I just have to quit cold turkey. That's the only way that that works.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, I think, I mean, this is why I've avoided golf. And like, Tony's big on golf and so is Jamie. It's like, I see what it is. I'm sure I would love it, but I don't have that time. The time during the day.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Well, I can tell you that I always thought. Well, I wouldn't say that, but I always thought that I would get into golf later in life. And then I decided more or less a year ago that I was going to start and now I am obsessed and it's all I want to do. So yeah, I can, I can, I can 100. I can 100 relate. But my wife knows that I'm so happy when I come back from golf that it's like better if I get to do it quite often.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, even you should fake being happy so you can keep doing it.

[Magnus Carlsen]

No, no, no.

[Joe Rogan]

Like, yeah, they say that's ruining Canelo Alvarez. You know, there's been a lot of criticism in the boxing world and particularly in like, you know, some of his promoters and things along those lines where they've criticized his, his. He's obsessive. He plays every day even when he's in camp.

[Tony Hinchcliffe]

Yeah, it's a tricky thing if they do that with him. And I obviously see them do it with Trump. But there you have to golf to understand what golfing does to you. It appears from the outside that people are drinking and smoking pot and having a good old time out there and giggling around, farting around with their friends. But the touch grass meditative element, it truly is like he was saying, like, I'm in such a crazy good mood after golf. Everybody at the comedy club can notice it. Like, it's like an upper. It gives you a massive burst of energy. So like the, the what am I thinking of? The, you know, just the bad reputation that golf has. Like, I would want my president golfing a couple times a week knowing the effects that it gives you a much clearer mind, a big burst of energy. You would think it would be exhausting walking around the woods or grass for four hours, but for some reason it's totally the opposite. It's, it's whether it's the sun, the grass, the this, the that the differential going from a powerful thing to a mid range thing to the delicate touch and accuracy of putting these repetitive things. For some reason, it's a mind clear and kind of an energy giver. Whereas video games and other things make you depressed. I don't, you know, it's almost impossible to be down or depressed after golfing.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, it's certainly a stimulating game. Right. Because it's hand eye coordination, calculation, managing the lay of the land, the way the rolls of the hills are and all those factors. I think this is something that I think people genuinely need in life. And I think it's one of the reasons why people respect chess so much is because they know how difficult it is and they know that all this is going on and that they see you two just staring at the board, looking at these pieces and calculating this insane number of possibilities that could emit from each individual move. It's like that stimulation when someone gets good at a game. I think it's very valuable for you and I think that can apply to all sorts of things in life. So I agree with you. I'd want the president to play golf too. I'd want him to find something, whatever it is, find a thing that you can excel at other than just being the president.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah, yeah. Even if it was Call of Duty.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, if that would be wild. I wouldn't want that. The President going, fuck, yeah, we had that.

[Tony Hinchcliffe]

It was George W. Bush and there was no video game.

[Magnus Carlsen]

It's dark.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, it is dark. Well, I mean, they literally use PlayStation controllers when they were using drones. I don't know if they still do it now. I think now they have more sophisticated setups, but that one of the reasons why they were using them is because so many people were accustomed to those. You get kids that have been playing, you know, Madden 10 hours a day for 15 fucking years, and then you give them the same controller and they're like, oh yeah, I can fucking drop some bombs on people.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Like non profit all that's that's horrible.

[Joe Rogan]

It's dark.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah. And all of a sudden like these kills that you have in a video game, like you, you think of it in the same way, like, well, it.

[Joe Rogan]

Really haunts those people. Apparently there's a very specific type of PTSD that drone operators get because they see the people sometimes for days in advance. So they're doing surveillance, they're waiting for the moment when they get the green light. They see these people, they see them with their families, they're watching them from above, and then they drop the bombs on them and then they cease to exist. And this is happening on completely the other side of the world.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah, they just press X on the controller.

[Joe Rogan]

But if you want to get good at that, probably play video games. It's a job for everybody out there. Magnus.

[Magnus Carlsen]

I'm also trying to think like, could you get surgeons to be drone operators? Probably doesn't work that.

[Joe Rogan]

No, probably doesn't work that well. At best, surgeons just whatever hand, eye coordination that they have is probably so intricate that they could probably excel at anything. They'd probably get good at video games. Like a very good surgeon who's never played video games would probably get really good at video games really quickly because the, the communication between your hands.

[Tony Hinchcliffe]

There's also probably a tricky part of that stat where the younger people are the ones playing the video games that probably wouldn't slip up with their hands as easily as an older surgeon that has never played video games.

[Joe Rogan]

Right, yes, Right, right, right. Yeah, that's a good point. It's, it's, you know, it's interesting that chess is uniquely the game that's respected. Like probably out of all, even if you play golf, people could think, oh, you're a fuck up. You say you play chess, like, oh, that must be an intelligent man. It's probably the most uniquely rewarded game in terms of the, the way the people respect it in society.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

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[Magnus Carlsen]

We're very lucky that it has this unique position. Whether that's deserved, I don't know, but there's just something about the fact that it's, you know, it's a very, very simple game, but it's, it's still so infinitely difficult. The thing now, the thing now though is that we're trying to actually make it a bit more difficult for a classical form of chess because now computers are so strong. Preparation has gone so far that the thought of sitting down at the board and just thinking on your Own from the very get go, it's not there anymore. Anybody who's really good at chess, like they, anybody can, can learn the best openings like very quickly. Even if you go like 10, 20 years ago, you could play, you could play for instance in the Chess Olympiad, which is the, which is the biggest team nation tournament in the world. And you could play against the best player from, from let's say Colombia. And you know, you would know that they have a certain skills but they might not have the same set of openings right now. All of these like there are kids everywhere and they just like, they know their stuff so well. So now we're like testing out new formats. One that we call freestyle, which is Basically there are 960 starting possible starting positions. If you shuffle the pieces on the first rank and basically like you start out, you just draw the position 10 minutes before the game, no preparation whatsoever. And you basically start with like in gaming, a new map every single game. So that's sort of for the traditionalists, that's not like the same, the same game. So like there are some people who don't like it, but for the professionals it's a chance to use their skills because otherwise chess is moving, it's becoming faster. Chess used to be an art, science, everything with the way things are now, it's just very fast and it's all games, sports and so on. I feel like with thinking from the very first move, you're bringing some of the other factors back as well.

[Joe Rogan]

I think it's really unique about today is that kids today who are coming up are not just studying from books and from coaching, but you can watch so many great games instantaneously anytime you want. This is what's so unique about today. And I think it applies to all sports, I think it applies to all games, I think it applies to all, I think it applies to stand up comedy as well. So I think it's one of the reasons why the younger guys are so good. It's like you get to see very high level stuff which gets into your mind that this is how to play at a very early age. And you can become obsessed and just absorb so much more.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah. And you see there are such different approaches as well, even, even with, with the kids. Like I had a training camp a few years ago with, with a kid called Alireza Feroza from, he plays for France now, but he's from Iran originally. I think he was about 14 then. And my chess coach had recommended that we bring him in because he said that this is the most talented kid out there. So we have this camp where typically everybody has their laptop and there's a chessboard in the middle where you sort of, and you sort of look at your own thing and then some things together on the board and you, you throw out ideas mostly for openings, but also sometimes other little exercises and so on. And this kid, he would have his laptop where he would, where he would analyze a certain position and then he would play games like for money on that same site at the same time so that he could buy cloud, Cloud engine times. Because like the very best engines, they're stronger, like if they're in the cloud than from your own, than from your own laptop generally. So he would buy time for that by playing games like one minute games on that server. He would play five minute games on another server and he would analyze with us on the board. And he was still like following everything. Like he had no problems whatsoever just being there. So like it's just. Yeah, that's, that's one way of doing it. Like he basically became one of the best players in the world by just constantly playing chess all the time. And mostly like really quick games. And then you have the current classical world champion from, from India Gurkesh. Like he doesn't play casual games at all. He just studies his ass off all the time. And he's also like, he's not good at rapid chess, he's not good at blitz, he's not good at other forms. But he has made all his studies about classical chess. He didn't even own chess software on his computer before he was 13.

[Joe Rogan]

Wow.

[Magnus Carlsen]

And he was a grandmaster.

[Joe Rogan]

Wow.

[Magnus Carlsen]

At that time. But it's interesting to see that there are such different ways to develop even these days.

[Joe Rogan]

I just think it's fascinating human beings capacity to excel at things and that you really only know when someone pushes it a little bit further. Like this guy playing all these games simultaneously. You know what I mean? It's like when you, when, if everybody's doing it one way, if everybody's only playing, you know, a few games a day and hanging out like you'll probably all stay at the same level. But if you got one fucking psychopath in the group that's online and is playing and is reading books and is that guy's gonna pass everybody and then everybody else realizes like, oh, that's possible you I could have gotten as good as him. I better really bear down.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah. Because you could also see that in these guys playing style. The guy who has been playing like constantly all the Time from when he was little. He has fantastic instincts, especially with little time. He just knows where the pieces go. And he's the only one of the kids who has that kind of feeling. The Indian guy, on the other hand, from the way he studies, he's like, during games, like, he's meticulous. He calculates. Like, he sees every position as a problem he has to solve more than, oh, what does my intuition tell me, oh, I'll do this. It's like, for him, it's more, well, this is possible. This is possible. Let me, like, try and see this all, all the way. All the way through. So it's just. Yeah, it's just very, very different. And they call it like the tortoise and the hare sometimes. And then in certain situations, the tortoise will win, and other situations, the hare will win.

[Joe Rogan]

Right. So there's different types of tournaments, and there's some tournaments that have no time limit for moves.

[Magnus Carlsen]

There's always a time. There's always a time limit.

[Joe Rogan]

What's a traditional time limit?

[Magnus Carlsen]

What it used to be in chess was you'd have two hours for 40 moves, then you would have an hour for the next 20 moves and then half an hour for the rest of the game. So a maximum of seven hours, and that form is still being played. And then you have faster forms of chess, which is blitz chess, which is usually five or three minutes, and rapid chess, which is somewhere from 10 to, to 30 minutes.

[Joe Rogan]

Did you ever, before you were known, did you ever go to Washington Square park and play those Hustlers?

[Magnus Carlsen]

No, I actually went there in 20, 2010, but I think. I think some people recognized me. But back then as well. I think it's a bit of a myth, though, how, how good they are. Like, right. They're, they're, they're like, okay, but they're not like, your level. No, they're not grandmaster level. There was one guy, though. I don't remember. I don't remember what was. What's the name of, like, it's up by, you know, Columbia University. There's a park up there where they're playing chess as well. There I played against the guy who played, like, a very strange opening as well. Like, he put, like, just a couple of pawns, one square forward, and then he started developing his pieces very slowly. So at first I thought this guy has no idea what he. He's doing. But then it turned out like he actually had a system. So after like, 10, 15 moves, I was in a lot of trouble. And then, like, the Game became super concrete and tactical, and I won. But, yeah, it struck me that this guy had. I think he just played in the park all his life. So he had developed a certain system that was actually, like, kind of effective if you don't know what you're doing against it. So that was. That was kind of. Kind of interesting. I'm like, he was fairly old, so I'm sure he'd played chess his whole life without ever learning any kind of opening theory or. Or something like that. He just had. Yeah, he was doing his own.

[Joe Rogan]

Fascinating. Can you ever learn something from people that have an unorthodox approach like that?

[Magnus Carlsen]

Oh, yeah, for sure. It's. It's happened several times. There was. There was, like, my dad used to play a ton of chess at home. Like, he used to have a home office. And then certain times he'd appear to be focused on his. In his work, but I knew, like, a certain look in his eye which told me that he was actually playing chess. So I would go over and. And watch. And then at some point where I was already a lot better than him, he played a certain opening as. As white. And I told him, like, what. What is this opening? Like, where did you learn this? And he said, well, you taught me the very same opening, but with the black pieces. So I thought I was gonna play it as white, like, with. With one tempo more. Right. Because you're playing. You're moving first. I was like, I, like, I never, like, I'm one of the best players in the world, and I never thought of that. So I actually took up that line and I used it with success against some of the best players in the world.

[Joe Rogan]

Wow.

[Magnus Carlsen]

So I've, like, I've. I don't know if that variation has a name. Like, I've seen some other players play it afterwards as well, but I just call it the Henrik Carlsen variation.

[Joe Rogan]

That's really interesting. Your dad must be pretty proud of that.

[Magnus Carlsen]

He is very proud. It's funny, though, that my. My. My dad and my. My sisters, my two of my sisters, they. They played a bit of competitive chess as well. I think at some point in time, like, I. They wanted to learn a couple of openings, so I taught them a couple of openings, and I think all of them just never played anything. Anything else, basically. So they. They certainly didn't have the same kind of passion to. To study, but I'm glad I was able to. To push them into some. Some decent lines.

[Joe Rogan]

How do you decide what opening to choose? And do you ever decide an opening Go. Fuck. I shouldn't have done that one.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah, sometimes, honestly, sometimes I. I don't know what to do. So I just randomize because I think at a certain time, you might think that against this opponent, you should play a little bit more of an aggressive opening. But then maybe I feel good about my tournament standing, so I don't want to mess that up. So it's easy to go for a safer approach when the optimal approach would be a bit more aggressive. And then if you randomize it, then you will occasionally go for the. For the more aggressive approach. So that's what I sometimes do is just, I randomize it and then I just sort of accept the, the outcome and it makes me more. More unpredictable. It makes me harder to. To prepare against as well. So that's what I sometimes do. It's not like it's not going to be out there, but it's going to be between, like, two or three options that I think are roughly equivalent. They're just stylistically different.

[Joe Rogan]

So when you say randomize, like, how many openings do you have that you pursue on a regular basis?

[Magnus Carlsen]

Oh, it's. It's hard to. That's hard to say. Probably. Probably with white, I have like five or six options that I can, that I can go to, but only like, two or three that I feel really good about. And I think similarly, similarly with black.

[Joe Rogan]

So. And then when you randomize, you just go in your head and one of them stands out for you and you.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Say, okay, no, I just, like, have an app on my phone.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, really?

[Magnus Carlsen]

It's a roll the dice. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, wow, wow, wow.

[Magnus Carlsen]

And I, I think honestly, a lot of people could, could benefit from that because you, you agonize over these minute decisions. Like, you spend a lot of mental energy before a certain game agonizing. You're going to play, and if you know that you, you're going to make a decent choice, but you leave all the agonizing to. To like there's nothing because it's, it's left to. To chance. It makes. It makes it a lot, a lot easier.

[Joe Rogan]

That makes sense. When. Now you're saying mental energy is. Do you. You were talking about the spicy Chinese food incident, but do you normally have a method of, like, when you eat vitamins you take, is there certain things that you do to optimize your, your clarity?

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah, like if, if I'm playing. If I'm playing an early, early afternoon game, for instance, like, it's starting at 1, I try to eat like one big meal before that. Which is generally like a big omelet with some, some kind of salad and.

[Joe Rogan]

But you eat pretty clean before a big.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah, I usually do. Sometimes, like after games, I will eat something, like even some desserts and so on. But before the games, I try and keep it fairly, fairly clean. And I actually learned that when I was little. Like, sometimes my parents, they were generally quite strict about sweets and so on, but sometimes I would eat sweets during tournament. Then, you know, my, my blood sugar would drop like crazy and I would start making, Making mistakes. And so that's something that I, I learned quite quickly that I shouldn't do.

[Joe Rogan]

Do you ever mess around with vitamins or nootropics or anything like that? Things, nutrients that help memory?

[Magnus Carlsen]

No, I, I think I, I think it's a little bit about the way that I was, was raised. Like, I never take medicine unless I, I kind of have to. I don't really take supplements or, or, or, or anything like that. So I probably, I probably should. Like, it's, it's not a bad idea. Like, my wife is half American. Like, she's completely different. Like, she takes five kinds of vitamins every single day. She's very meticulous about it. But yeah, I don't know. I've never.

[Joe Rogan]

Just get her to make you up some little packets.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah, maybe.

[Joe Rogan]

I think it'd probably have an impact on you. I mean, it's extraordinary if you think about how good you are without it. Like, any little thing that could give you a very slight edge. And I think that vitamins for sure give you a slight edge, particularly nootropics. There's a bunch of different vitamins that have been shown through clinical trials to improve cognitive performance. You know, theanine, there's acetylcholine, a bunch of different things that enhance memory that are essentially just nutrients.

[Magnus Carlsen]

What's the new thing that people are doing? Like carotene or something like that?

[Joe Rogan]

Ketamine?

[Magnus Carlsen]

No, no, no, not ketamine. No, no, no, it's not ketamine. Creatine.

[Joe Rogan]

Creatine.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Creatine.

[Joe Rogan]

Creatine, yes. Creatine was a bodybuilding supplement that was almost akin to steroids in the 1990s. People, you'd think it was cheating, and then they realized, well, it's just a component of food. But one of the things that creatine does that's very extraordinary is it aids in performance when you're sleep deprived. So if you ever find yourself sleep deprived and you have to do something where you have to use your mind, creatine is A fantastic supplement for that.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Well, I mean, I woke up today and like, I think my, my watch setup is that my sleep was like, I got 15, like I slept for five hours, but I got 15 minutes of REM sleep. Like it was really, really bad. So that's what I could have, I could, I could have used that because I was playing a chess earlier today, so I could, I could have used that.

[Joe Rogan]

But yeah, creatine is something that everybody should take. Men, women, children, everybody should take creatine. It's a really good supplement, super safe. And it does, it aids in strength and muscle recovery and stuff like that, but it also has a lot of cognitive benefits. Just generally just like a very good, safe supplement to take. What does it say here, Jane? Cognitive function studies suggest that creatine supplementation may improve cognitive function, including memory, attention and reasoning, and may increase brain energy levels by boosting endosine triphosphate production. ATP, which is essential for brain function. Creatine has antioxidant and anti inflammatory properties that may protect brain cells from damage caused by oxidative stress and neurotoxins may help reduce it. So it does a lot of different things. If you google it, there's a ton of different benefits. I take it in gummy form. I take creatine gummies every day. They're delicious. It's easy. I just pop a bunch.

[Tony Hinchcliffe]

Five milligrams.

[Joe Rogan]

I don't know. We have any of those tri creates here?

[Magnus Carlsen]

I don't think so.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, I think I have them out there. But they're great. You know, it's easy. I put a bag in my car, take them all the time. I've noticed a difference. I just think with a guy like you, well, your brain is everything, but you're, you're kicking ass. So like, why listen to me. No, no, no, but cheeseburgers and fuck around.

[Magnus Carlsen]

No, but it, it, it is the thing though that on certain days I said, I sort of just accept that, you know, my brain is not going to work as good, work as good. And it's, it's, it's frustrating. Especially if you got a, if you got a big game and you know that you're starting down to zero because your brain is not working the way it's supposed to be.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, I feel that with podcasting all the time and the, the reality danger is if I do that, if my brain's not on full tilt and I'm talking to a scientist and I'm like, oh, like we have to talk about quantum physics like this I have to, like, have good questions. You have to be able to follow what you're saying because it's so esoteric. You know, it's weird that the brain just doesn't always work exactly how you want it to.

[Magnus Carlsen]

And honestly, chess is one of the worst things to do. Sleep deprived. Because I think creativity usually is enhanced when you're not feeling well, when you're sleep deprived. But that's generally not what you need in chess. Like, you need to minimize mistakes. You need precision. And all of my intuition, all of that is just so much worse when I'm not feeling on top of my game.

[Joe Rogan]

Do you have a specific thing you do when you're feeling not on top of your game? Do you like, double check things in your mind? Do you have a process you follow?

[Magnus Carlsen]

I just try to play like a simpler game where, where it's not as. Where it's not as complicated really.

[Joe Rogan]

And when you're feeling good, then you go for it.

[Magnus Carlsen]

No, honestly, when. When I feel like good, I don't think about these things. It's just a state of. It's just a state of flow where I know. I know how much risk to take. Like, I just. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

So what is the mindset? Like, if you're in a world championship game and you. It's down to these, like, what, what is the state of mind like when you're in the middle of it?

[Magnus Carlsen]

Honestly, when I'm at my best, I'm just like pure laser focused and I'm just calm and not thinking about anything other than just in the moment. Just in the moment? Yeah, just in.

[Joe Rogan]

The work is already done. You already know the game, so now it's just reacting and moving and calculating.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah, I mean, I had, I had a game and 20 last classical world championship. I played in 2021, where the first five games were drawn. Honestly, like, I could have probably been down at that point as well. Sixth game was a super, super long game, almost eight hours. And I think for the last hour and a half, two hours, I was pretty short on time. But I remember, like, I was just so focused and so calm and afterwards I was just like, yeah, I could have kept going forever. Like, I was just there and it was exactly what I needed. I ended up grinding out, grounding out win and, and in, in those classical games, like, once you get a lead, like that is so big because it's so hard to win, actually win games at that, that level, with that level of preparation. So that was, that was really big. But yeah, that's. That I've only, I, I've only had, I feel like a few days where I feel like I'm just like completely in the moment. Usually it's a bit more messy than that, but like when it happens it's just, yeah, the best feeling.

[Joe Rogan]

That's amazing that it's only been a few days where you've been fully in the moment.

[Magnus Carlsen]

I'm rarely happy after I play. I'm happier now. Like I'm honestly like my standards for myself like are a little bit lower, have gone down a little bit the older I've gotten because I sort of accept that I don't, I don't have. My brain is not as fast as it used to be, so I'm going to have occasional letdowns. So my top level is like, I think as good as it's ever been or at least very, very close to. But like the average level is just, it's just too hard when your brain is not that fast anymore. But, but, but yeah, generally I, I'm, I'm always thinking, well yeah, I could have always done something better. Like you always miss some things. But I always feel like, yeah, there are avoidable mistakes that I'm still making.

[Joe Rogan]

So this, as you've gotten older, this lowering expectations, is that a recognition of the fact that being hard on yourself over minute details doesn't benefit you and that you've just had a more healthy approach?

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah, I think so. It just makes everything a bit, bit easier. Also honestly, like the randomizing opening choices has made, has made things easier as, as well everything just to, to sort of. Yeah. Lower the pressure a bit.

[Joe Rogan]

Have you ever consulted a mental coach or you works with people on mindsets to try to capture what is happening when you are in that complete total flow state of laser focusness and try to recreate that? Because there's a bunch of different mind coaches that will tell you for a bunch of different pursuits that what you have to do is when you get to that state, whatever that state is, recognize that you're there and then try to get a map of the territory and try to will yourself back into that thing. But then there's another school of thought that says no, it just has to happen organically and that you just have. You just need to be obsessed and focused and take care of yourself and meditate and just when it comes, it's going to come, but it just. You have to accept that it's a gift and it's just not always going to be there.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah, I'm definitely in the Latter camp. I've talked to people who have suggested mental coaches, like, plenty of. Plenty of times, both in the past and more recently as well. I've just always been worried that somebody's gonna mess something up in my head.

[Joe Rogan]

Paralysis by analysis.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah, that's really what it is for me. I feel at some point I'm just like, more or less content with the way things are, that most days that I'm playing, I'm going to be fairly good. On some days I'm going to be at my very best. Other days I'm going to be very far from my best. And it's sort of the way it is. I'm definitely much more open to doing things to prevent me from having those very worst days. Because that, those are the ones that really, that really hurt you. Especially now that we're playing a lot of faster tournaments where there are. Where there are knockouts, where basically, like, if you have one bad day, you're. You're out and it doesn't matter. Like, back in the days with classical tournaments, like, you could. You could have a really bad day, but then you can always bounce back. But nowadays it's not that easy.

[Joe Rogan]

Do you ever try to map out what are the factors that lead you to hit that state? That's. That flow state? Do you ever try to think about your day? Like, what did I do? What did I eat? How did I sleep? Did I avoid toxic people around me? Did I stay offline? Like, what did I do that allowed me to get to that spot?

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah, I mean, doing everything sort of right before the game definitely helps. Like, getting, getting good sleep, like reading a book instead of being on some sort of device before I go to go to sleep, then just focusing as little as possible on chess before the game. Definitely really little as possible. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Because you want it to be fresh in your mind. You want it to be something exciting.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah, I just want to have two or three ideas of what I'm. What I'm going to play and not, like, I just don't want to, like, use mental energy that I could have used on the game before.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Magnus Carlsen]

So I think one of my better tournaments that I played, it's. I used to play every year at this seaside resort in, in the Netherlands. And it's in the middle of winter, so it's not very short. Like, it's just rainy and windy, and there's basically nothing there except this big tournament that's been there for. For 80 years, and it's for three weeks every. Every January. So for me there's not. There's not a lot to do. So what I would do, like, every day is I'd. I'd. I'd wake up, I'd go for a walk, and then I would watch, like, 30 to 45 minutes of NBA highlights from the day before. Look at chess for 15 minutes, whatever my coach has sent me of preparation that we discussed the day before, eat and then. And then go play. And that worked really, really well. It's just keeping it as simple as possible, honestly.

[Joe Rogan]

So get inspired a little bit. A little bit of energy from watching NBA highlights, right? Yeah, just a tiny amount of information from the coach. Just, like, get your brain locked in, but not too much energy. Don't focus too much on it.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah, a lot of people, like, they do. They will spend 3, 4 hours preparing on a game on that very day. I think, like, it can be beneficial, like, if your opponent goes into specifically the lines that you prepared and so on. But overall, I think, yeah, having a fresh mind is so important. And I'm also, like, even if I haven't had the perfect preparation, I'm really good at just blocking everything out, forgetting everything that's happened and just focusing there and then. But it's still not as good, of course. That's just being in a good state of mind.

[Joe Rogan]

Do you ever get to the point where you feel burnout, where you want to just take days off, a week off and not think about chess, not touch a chessboard? Or is it just constantly playing in the background no matter what you do?

[Magnus Carlsen]

But I really love it, so why take time? Yeah, why take. No, no, no. I'm. I'm fine with taking breaks from. From tournaments and so on, but having, like, at least days, several days in a row without, like, looking at a chess game or. I mean, I don't have to play every day, but not having a. Having a. Yeah. Not looking at anything, like, not reading some chess stuff or like. Yeah, I mean, it's. It's my favorite hobby, so I don't. Yeah, I don't see why I would want to do that.

[Joe Rogan]

That's probably why. You're one of the best of all time, if not the best. I mean, that's a beautiful approach. Right. If you can find a thing that you love so much that even though you do it all the time and you've done it since you were a child, you're still obsessing and loving it.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah, I do have those moments where I just. I just take a breath and think about how lucky that I am and there are just moments where I just sort of. I wouldn't say rediscover my love for the game, but where I just think, like, I'm obsessed with this game and I'm completely fine with that.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, that's a beautiful way to live your life. If people can find a thing like that in their life, that really is the key to an enjoyable life. If the thing that you do all the time, you're obsessed with. Now we talk about it all the time at our comedy club where we're all in the green room. We're like, we are so lucky that this is actually what we do for a job. And pretty much everybody who's good at it is obsessed with it and they think about it all the time. It's kind of the only way. But I need time off sometimes because I think that's different. Because it's always different ideas and different things you're working on. Sometimes you need time just to refresh your perspective. But with a game like chess, I guess you don't really need time off.

[Magnus Carlsen]

No, I think again, it's. It's different from Fern for different people. But I don't know, I don't feel. I don't feel like it takes away energy. It just gives me joy and energy when I do that. Like, I will just. On a certain day, I will just log into chess.com and observe random people play. And that is something I can do and be very happy about it. Yeah, it's just the way I'm.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, you're just very fortunate you found a thing that you really locked into. It's that that perspective is very important for people to recognize. Like the perspective of gratitude and of appreciation that you're so fortunate to have found something. People go their whole lives and never find a thing that they're truly, absolutely passionate about. And for a guy like you, I mean, it's a shining example for people, I think. I think that's one of the things that I enjoy the most about super high performers, is that they provide an insane amount of inspiration to other people. When someone sees you play chess at the highest level or sees, you know, Michael Jordan play basketball or whatever it is, you get this feeling of what human beings can do, and it elevates your own expectations of yourself and of people around you.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah, I think I've thought about it many times, like, what am I actually like doing with my life that's. That's useful to other people? And it always comes comes back to. To that every time that I hear that people. People are inspired by. By what I do. Maybe it. It helped them through, like, a difficult time to watch. To watch my games and to get into rediscover or find the. The love for the game. That's really. That's really nice. And again, in the process, I'm just doing. Doing what I. What I love, right? And that's. That's really what people want to. Want to see from me. It's just competing and doing well at chess. So that's. That's also what I'm giving us as often as possible.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, that's what people want out of life. It's something that they love, that they do, that they're very good at, and they get recognized for it. And when a person like you does it and does it publicly, and it's inspiring, it's a great gift for other people. I mean, it truly is. Who has been like, are there particular players that you really enjoy watching play and particular styles that you enjoy?

[Magnus Carlsen]

I think my favorite probably player of all time is sort of the young Kasparov before he became world champion. The thing is, what I find fascinating about that is that he played with a style that was so unique and so dynamic that. That I know that I could never replicate it. It's just not the way that I. I play. So that's something I. I admire a lot. Usually I'm. Whatever I'm into, like, be it soccer or golf or basketball or whatever, like, I admire, like, what people do not necessarily like, it's about the people themselves. So that's the way it has been for me in. In chesses as well, that I try to, like, learn from. From people's games and what they. What they do and when I talk to them. And I've been very fortunate about. About that being able to study with. With Gary back in the day and Anand, who was the world champion before me, because it's. It's only then when, like when you. When you study, like, you talk to them, like, you understand, like, how good they really are and how much they. They understand. For instance, with Anand, I had. I had a training session in 2008 where we had both played a tournament where I'd done reasonably well. And he had sort of. Towards the end, he had mailed it in, but he was preparing for the classical world championship. So we. I think I had two days off, and he was living outside Madrid. And so I went to Madrid for a couple of days because the other tournament was in the north of Spain. Then I went to his house and as soon as, like that training camp started, it's like something just switched with him and he was just so focused. We played a bunch of training games, and from being this guy who seemed completely disinterested in this other tournament, all of a sudden, like he was crushing me. Like, he had a massive plus score in our games. And it felt like everything we analyzed, he was just, he just had a much deeper understanding of the game. It seemed that he was faster tactically and everything. And it made me, like, appreciate, like, how good, how good he actually, actually was. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

When you are playing someone like that, you're getting your ass kicked. Does this inspire you and enact change in your game or does it, does it not change your game? You just do the same game but more focused?

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah, I think, I think it's more of, more of the latter. It was just a reality check for me because I thought at that point that I was, I was ranked, I think, third in the world. I had very briefly been ranked number one already at that point, like for, for a week. And I thought before that I thought I was maybe one of the best two, three players in the world. And it made me realize that I wasn't and that maybe I was able to have better results than my actual level because of, because of youth, energy and optimism. Right. And that made me just. Yeah, it just made me realize that I have a lot, lot to learn and that I should be. I should be patient and not expect everything to sort of, to sort of come that fast. Because at that point I'd had a year of more or less constant rise. I was, yeah, it's just winning, winning tournaments. Every time I would lose a game, I was just believe that I could strike back immediately. And I, I, and I, like, I realized now that I was just, I was delusional. I thought I was a lot better than what I was. And that was probably why I was having such good results.

[Joe Rogan]

Because you're so confident?

[Magnus Carlsen]

Because I was so confident. But having a little bit of a reality check, I think helped me later to actually understand the game a bit better. But I've still taken away that. I think in chess, like, the optimal state when you're playing a game is somewhere between optimistic and delusionally optimistic, because if you're realistic, you're just never going to be opportunistic enough to sort of exploit your opponent's mistakes.

[Joe Rogan]

I think another factor is the way you analyze things that you were able to say, I was a little delusional. And even though I'm doing very well. I got to trust in this process of growth and development and that it is a very, very long process.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah, exactly. And like very soon after that, I started working with, with Gar Kasparov as well. And that made me realize that I know even less.

[Joe Rogan]

And what can a guy like Gary Kasparov tell you that makes you know that you know even less?

[Magnus Carlsen]

Back then it was really like my style has become a bit more dynamic over time. But back then I like, I really, really lacked understanding of more dynamic positions in chess. Like you can have, you can have like more static or more dynamics pawn structures. Like if there are a lot of possible pawn breaks for both sides and both kings are under attack, then it's sort of more dynamic and tactical or it could be more about gaining some minutes, positional advantages. And that's sort of what I was excelling at. The latter and working with him, it just improved sort of the more dynamic part of my game a lot. And that helped me very much short term. And also, also it's helped me lighter because it improved my understanding of the game. My strength, main strength is still more in the more static structures. But that work made me so much more versatile and I still definitely profit from that.

[Joe Rogan]

What, what is a coach for you today? Like what, what benefit is a coach today?

[Magnus Carlsen]

A couple of things. The main benefits that I have for my chess coach is opening work. That's like the, the low hanging fruit. That's, that's really what, you know, you can, you can get the most out of, on, on from game to game. A couple of other things. Like my coach is also an old friend of mine. He's Danish, so we can communicate in the same language. And he's also just as obsessed with golf as I am. So every time we have a chess training camp, there's also a lot of golf being played. Yeah, those are a few things, but chess wise it's mainly about the opening work.

[Joe Rogan]

And so it's essentially. He's obviously very good at chess as well, but it's essentially bouncing things off of each other and going over positions.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah. And then he's very good at using chess engines to, you know, to get slightly different results than, than maybe other others do.

[Joe Rogan]

Do you occasionally or do you at all analyze other people's games and break them down together?

[Magnus Carlsen]

No, not really. When it comes to analyzing other games. Like it's, it's, it's more useful for me to, to look at what the engine is saying. So like now the engines are just smarter than. Yeah. That they are. And I'm, I'm good enough that I can interpret what the engine is, is saying to like, understand why a certain thing, a certain thing happened, happened. So it's still interesting to analyze together as humans, but we always want to double check what we're, what we're saying with, with the engines.

[Joe Rogan]

Isn't it fascinating that that's a gigantic factor now ever since Deep Blue, Right?

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah. So the thing about, I know, like, I don't know if you, if you talk to Gary, but he has this whole thing with, with Deep Blue. I'm not sure if Deep Blue was actually better than Gary, but it started the downfall of us humans when it comes to chess. And it's now been a long time where we just accepted that our computer overlords are just a lot better. And there are serious benefits for, for improving players, for, for kids. Like, the engines help people improve a lot faster. So that's, that's a great thing. Additionally, people watching chess games, like, one problem is that you cannot easily tell. Like, it's not like one guy is being punched and the other guy is, is punching. Like it takes some skill to, to see what's going on. But with the help of the engines, like you could actually have a real time score all the time because it tells you who is, who is winning and who is not. So it becomes a lot easier to follow as well. Because honestly, like most people when they consume sports, they're mostly interested about who is going to win and who is going to lose. So now at least you can have that factor in chess that you can, you can see that. And it's very interesting for me to read what people were writing about computer chess, 30, not 30, but like 50, 60 years ago and so on, when there was an actual discussion whether computers could ever beat a grandmaster at chess. And now it's very much settled, of course.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, they have that same discussion about go, right?

[Magnus Carlsen]

Well, GO is much more complicated than chess. But I don't know what has happened since AlphaGo, if the best masters are still a little bit better or where the state is at.

[Joe Rogan]

I think GO is better than everybody, the computer is. But I think a new factor is that the computer has devised creative moves that were never used before that have now been implemented. They're part of like general strategy, which I think they thought was very shocking. So see if you can find any.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Is it kind of bluffing moves or.

[Joe Rogan]

I do not know, because I don't understand go. I was just reading an article about the extraordinary leaps that AI has taken and that one of the more shocking things was, was that it was able to beat the best players at go, which they didn't. They thought it was like a long time coming.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah, I mean I did watch, I watched the movie alphago and I mean.

[Joe Rogan]

How long ago was that?

[Magnus Carlsen]

That's like five, no, maybe like six.

[Joe Rogan]

Seven years ago in AI time. That's like stone ages, which is so crazy.

[Magnus Carlsen]

And I think like a year or two later there was AlphaZero in chess. So chess engines, they were always like kind of built by humans and instructed by humans. Then alphazero came along and. Which is a neural network that just, you know, learned chess on it on its own. And it became more or less as good or maybe slightly, slightly worse than the best traditional chess engines. What's interesting is that the neural networks played chess a lot more like humans. They were much less concerned about material factors. They were more about positional play and long term thinking and so on. Because it was not based on brute force in the way that traditional engines would. And you would see funny like they have computer tournaments as well with the best engine in the world. And you will still see like Leela Zero, that's sort of the clone of AlphaZero because they discontinued the AlphaZero project after a while. It will make like elementary tactical blunders almost. That's crazy because it, I don't know, it doesn't have. It just thinks about chess differently than traditional engines. But it will also like do things that just confounds the very best chess engines in the world still. So that's very interesting to see. And like all the best coaches and players. Now when you work with chess computers, you always have both like a neural net and a traditional chess engine running as well as some others who are now like hybrid, who are, who have, who have a little bit of both.

[Joe Rogan]

It's just fascinating that it would make blunders.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah, well, I don't know if it's something about its search. I really don't, I really don't know. But it would also make some fascinating decisions like when you promote a pawn, like you usually promote to a queen because that's almost always the best. Unless you sometimes want to promote a knight specifically to, to give a check or sometimes, you know, to avoid stalemate, but that's, that's less frequent. But then what Lila and alphazero would sometimes do is that they would promote to a different piece because if it's a piece that anyway going to be captured just to give your Opponent like a slight chance of making a mistake by making another move, which is something like a human would never ever do. But it's like, it's really funny. A little bit of a parallel to what's going on in Go, I think with this gamesmanship that is going on with, with the new neural nets.

[Joe Rogan]

So that's crazy that it would just trick you.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah, would try and trick it. Like it probably wouldn't trick a human because a human would be like, that's weird. Okay, I'll just take it, whatever. But another engine. Oh, okay. Well, I have another alternative that seems equivalent, more or less. Maybe I'll go for. Maybe I'll go for that. It's very strange.

[Joe Rogan]

So what are the best programs that people play on?

[Magnus Carlsen]

There are a few. There's one that was originally developed by Norwegian called Stockfish that's still considered the best. So I think the best now is Stockfish, like Stockfish hybrid, that's part neural and part traditional engine. And then I think.

[Joe Rogan]

Do you have to be connected online to use that?

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah, I mean most people use either. Most people use remote engines like some kind of cloud service to have as much computing power as possible.

[Joe Rogan]

So the kind of computing power that's on your phone, like can you beat your phone at the highest level?

[Magnus Carlsen]

No, no chance. No chance? No.

[Tony Hinchcliffe]

Crazy.

[Joe Rogan]

Because Deep Blue, wasn't it like as big as a room? Yeah, Deep Blue was a, wasn't like a stack of computers. Right.

[Magnus Carlsen]

But I'm sure it's still less powerful than your, the computer on your phone today.

[Joe Rogan]

It's shocking.

[Magnus Carlsen]

No, no, I have no chance against, against, against my phone. There was crazy. There was actually one time where I played corporate simul and there was this guy who said I built a chess program in, in my university class. Can I let that play against you again instead of my cell phone? I was like, yeah, sure, why not? And I actually beat it fairly handily because I played some kind of anti computer chess where I just close up the position as much as possible and just let it have as few possibilities as possible to out calculate me so that it's a purely strategical game that doesn't work against very good engines, but it can work against weaker ones. But no humans. Like we don't have any there. There was a grandmaster who played a match recently against Lila, which is like the best neural network engine. Now they were playing classical chess and he started with A night more and they played a 10, 10 game match and he won five and a half to four and a half.

[Joe Rogan]

Wow.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Which as crazy like it's a nightmare, like that's. It should not be possible for any. Like, if God was playing chess, that shouldn't be. You shouldn't be able to beat a grandmaster in any game like that. So the grandmaster was still able to win. I. But yeah, for me, I rarely play against engines at all because they just make me feel so stupid and useless. I think about it more as a tool, more than. More than anything else. And often like when you play against them, the moves that they make, they are not necessarily relevant as to what a human would do in that situation because we just think, we just think differently.

[Joe Rogan]

Do you ever try to think like the computer?

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah. Well, specifically the neural nets have improved our understanding of the game immensely. And the AlphaZero paper came out very late 2018. And actually I played a world championship match late 2018 as well, against an American, Fabiano Caruana. That was the best match I think that I've ever played. We played 12 draws actually, and then I won in a tiebreak. But like, the games were super high quality and he was very evenly matched. And then he was actually using Leela, the AlphaZero clone, which we didn't have access to. Like, we didn't even know that was the thing. But the thing is, like, after Alphazero came out in late 2018, there was a period, half a year, maybe early 2019, where you could very clearly see which players have been using these new neural network networks or knew how to use them and which players didn't. And my coach, he got into it very quickly and we got an advantage of basically everybody but that guy who had been using it during the match. And it just made us understand the game a lot better. There were, as I said, like a couple of things about long term king safety. Pushing pawns on the side of the board was maybe the biggest takeaway that often you would push pawns and not as an attacking tool, which used to be the way that you would push a pawn, like trying to break open your. Open your king. What you would do is that you would have a little hook on the side of the board that you could use 20 or 30 moves later to make your king. Like to make the opponent's king less safe then. And this is something that humans didn't really do. And I still see some people like allowing these pawn advances and I don't like, I wonder if they didn't, didn't learn their lesson from 2019. But it was very clear to see at a certain time before everybody Sort of caught up with the new information. And that's also when I had maybe my best stretch of chess ever, because I just understood these new things better. Better than others.

[Joe Rogan]

It's almost counterintuitive that you wouldn't want to play the computer because the computer makes you look stupid. Because the idea in my mind would be like, well, you should play the best thing that you could possibly play. And if that's a computer, great. If that's another human being, then play the human being. But I would imagine that playing something that makes you feel stupid would at the very least teach you something about the game.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah, it does. But at the same time, like, you know that these are usually things that humans cannot replicate. And to be fair, like the kids these days, a lot of them play like a more concrete brand of chess that is more similar to engines than we have seen in the past because.

[Joe Rogan]

They'Ve had so much exposure to it.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah, like they're less dogmatic, more concrete in their thinking. But then I know that there are usually other things that are lacking, so I could. I could sort of steer the game there as well. So I don't know, I haven't. I haven't found it particularly useful. But. But maybe I'm just. Yeah, I don't want to.

[Joe Rogan]

Is it partly because you just don't want to lose?

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah, of course. And it's also because, as you said, like, chess is a very lonely game. Like when you lose, it's because you're worse than your opponent. And imagine losing to somebody who you know is like, completely stupid, which, which like traditional chess computers are. They're stupid. They just have much more computing power than you do. So losing over and over again to something that's so stupid, like, that's not a good feeling.

[Joe Rogan]

Could you help explain to me, what are the factors, like how can. What does it. Doing that you can't do in terms of calculating positions and moves and strategies?

[Magnus Carlsen]

Well, first of all, it's infinitely faster. So there will, there will be certain possibilities that I will rule out because of my intuition, but it is able to calculate in a very short time that it's possible. It will never make blunders like simple tactical mistakes. The neural networks sometimes do, but traditionals. Engines, traditional engines don't. And like, I can, I can keep. Like, most of the moves that I make will be the same as they. As they do, but they just like, they don't make any real blunders at all. Like they may make slight positional mistakes, but honestly, most of the Time that I think an engine makes a positional mistake is because I don't understand it well enough.

[Joe Rogan]

So it's not really a mistake.

[Tony Hinchcliffe]

And it might look like one, but it's long term.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah, it's just that my understanding is not good enough. And that is useful. Then that does help me learn what.

[Joe Rogan]

Is the difference between the approach that the neural network takes versus a traditional engine? Like, why is one of them approaching the game differently?

[Magnus Carlsen]

Because one of them is constantly calculating based on sort of what humans have taught them is like the value of, like the value, what is the value of pawn, what's the value of a knight? And what is the value of, you know, a far advanced pawn? And all of this, like it calculates based on that neural network. Just you teach, you just show it the rules of chess and you know, play against your yourself a lot of times and get better. And it just has, it has a different approach. Like what it does is just based on the game, games that it's, that it's played against itself. Right. So it's just, it will have completely different, different ideas at times. Like imagine like in 2019, because of these neural networks, like every opening that have been played for hundreds of years had to be rechecked by coaches because there could be a difference in evaluation because there is this new neural network that just thinks in a completely different, different way.

[Joe Rogan]

Wow. So the, these neural networks could go back and look at, you know, a classic game from like 1963 and say, well, you know what? I would have fucked that dude up because I would have done this, that and the other thing.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah, exactly. And it just, I think a lot of it was based on. It just emphasizes different factors than traditional engines do. And that ultimately just leads to different results really. But it's. Yeah, it was extremely fascinating for a while, but now it's just led to really more parody in the world of chess because everybody just has access to, to that information. It used to be a thing back in the time that some people would really be ahead of others, not only in 2019, but also other times, like they had more computing power, better, better cloud engines. Like they had started to use different engines and so on. But now, now you could prepare for a world championship, honestly, and in two weeks and you'd be completely with like just a regular, regular like laptop that's connected to cloud. Like it's, it's very different and so much, so much easier today.

[Joe Rogan]

That is so fascinating that it's changed the game so much. Could you get a computer Whether it is a traditional engine or whether it's a neural network, could you get one to imitate a specific style? Like, could you get one, say, I want you to play like Garry Kasparov when he was younger.

[Magnus Carlsen]

So we actually did this back in. Back in the day. We actually started a. An app called Play Magnus where you could play against myself. Against at different ages. And the style it was based on. The guy who built Stockfish built this engine as well. So it was based, like, an old version of that, but it would have my openings and try to emulate my style at certain. Certain ages. Obviously it wasn't. It wasn't perfect, but it was. It was. It was a start. I think it's still difficult to build, like, a very good clone, because essentially, at least with traditional engines, it's not possible. Maybe with AI, you can. You can get there. But I still think we fundamentally think differently about. About chess, but, yeah, maybe.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, the interesting thing would be to take you. Because there's so many games that can be observed and put into the calculations, and then I would. I would really be fascinated to watch you play. You. You know, I mean, like, what would that be? Like, like you play you when you were 20?

[Magnus Carlsen]

No. So the thing about it is that you would also have to calibrate is that it would make occasional, like, tactical blunders. Right, right. And which engines. Yeah, right.

[Joe Rogan]

They wouldn't want to.

[Magnus Carlsen]

And so what we would do, what would happen in the Play Minus app, is that it would make occasional blunders, but those would be, like, a little bit too outrageous because it's, like, really hard to emulate the kinds of mistakes a human would make by the engines. I think that would probably still be the most difficult part. Like, the main issue in order to make such a thing.

[Tony Hinchcliffe]

If the Play Magnus thing was dialed in, like, 100%, what would be. Do you think now would be the scariest age to play you? Does that question make sense?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. Yeah. Are you better now than ever before?

[Magnus Carlsen]

No, I think. I think. I think my. My peak level is. Is close to the best, because chess level or proficiency at anything, it's about making use of the knowledge and making it into skill. Right. And I definitely have more knowledge now than I've ever had, but I think probably my. The combination. Best combination I had of knowledge and energy and that translated the best into scale was probably in 2019, like, first half of the year when I was. When I was 28 and when I was more. More like a young Kasparov than I'd ever been before. Very dynamic.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, what is the difference between you and 2019 you today?

[Magnus Carlsen]

A few things. First, I couldn't play the same openings as I played then because they have been worked out to a point where they're basically. Yeah, they're just too analyzed and unplayable. So that's one thing. Apart from that, I think I could do, like, my average level would probably be a little bit lower because I'm a little bit. I'm a little bit older and my brain is not quite as fast, but I could do, I think, most of those things. What I don't think I could do is like, the other sort of best version of me, which was 2013, 2014, when I was in the best shape of my life and I was just a relentless beast at the board, grinding down my opponents in very long end games, never giving them any respite whatsoever. Like, purely skill wise, that was far from the best version. Sorry, knowledge wise, it was far from the best version of me, but I was just. Yeah, it's just like the average level of my game definitely was. Was higher than. Because I barely. I rarely played really bad games at all because I was always. I was always sort of on. I had so much. So much willpower and energy.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, you're saying you were in the best shape of your life. Do you mean physically or do you mean physically? Yeah, well, there's two factors you're talking about, like, physical, like fitness and nutrition and exercise. Like that. These things you don't really take too much into consideration, but they obviously played a huge factor in the most successful period of your life.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah, it did.

[Joe Rogan]

But then because you're only 34, it's.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Not like you're an old man. No, no, no, that's true. But. But I just feel it with these kids. Like, their brains are just so much faster than mine. I mean, I felt it for years as well that, no, I'm not old, but I can never be at that level of pure computing power.

[Joe Rogan]

Is that generally accepted with chess, that there's a certain age where it just drops off? Who has won the world championships at, like, the oldest age?

[Magnus Carlsen]

No. Well, back in the days when you couldn't get information that quickly, it took people a lot longer to. To develop. And then it was considered that the best age was like, late 30s, early 40s. Obviously, the drop off is not nearly as steep as it would be in. In physical sports. Like, that's. That goes without saying, but I think the peak years are pretty much the same for. For most People like mid mid twenties to, to, to early to early thirties. I think I could still, I could be. I could still be very, very close to, to my peak. Focused fully on, on. Yeah, all the, the things that, that I can. Physical fitness, control. Yeah, all of those things. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. You don't do that. I don't understand if you're so obsessed with chess and that seems to have a primary factor.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah, that's. It's a good thing. Like, I feel like I do. I generally like, do the right thing things when I'm at tournaments, but then in between, I don't know, I want to enjoy life as well, so. And like I'm generally obsessed with chess, but I'm not always obsessed with competing. Like certain times, there will be certain days, certain tournaments where I know that I'm not going to be at my best and I can sort of. I can feel it. And then I, I'm not able to, to, to. To take it as, as seriously. Like I feel like I cannot. I'm. I'm not a Michael Jordan type who has to like, go all out in every, in. In every game. I used to, but now I don't. I. I don't think I have that. That my main motivation for playing chess is that I love to play. I don't have concrete goals of what I want to, what I want to do, things I want to achieve.

[Joe Rogan]

Is that sort of relaxed attitude that you have? Does that drive other people crazy that you're still able to beat them? That would drive me nuts if I was just fully obsessed and studying moves all day and just taking my vitamins and drinking only purified water.

[Tony Hinchcliffe]

And it's kind of a thing that you're known for, right? Like a lot of other people are known to work all the time and you've kind of always at least a reputation, played the player, right? Isn't that what you're.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah. And also the thing is, like, I was known for, for like being fit and all of these things, but now I think there are a lot of other players who take these things a lot more seriously than I, than I do. I think the reason why I got that reputation is that I really like doing a lot of, A lot of, like, I did a lot of sports from I was little and I've always like, kind of done them for, for fun. So I think that was the, that was why, like, you don't see a lot of chess players playing, playing soccer or tennis or whatever. Not that I'm great at any of those things, but I was usually better than a lot of other, a lot of other chess players. I, I, yeah, I guess I do have, I don't know, I don't know what a reputation I have for the others. Like I don't really care.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, it's not much you could do about your reputation.

[Tony Hinchcliffe]

I'm just saying like in a, in a, in a game or a sport where it's so computer involved and analyzed and there's geniuses wearing suits and glasses and things, you're kind of known as a laid back, intimidating force with a legacy. Do you have, are there, are there special things you do? Kind of like more like a poker player or anything to intimidate your opponents ever. Like I've seen you like show up late to big tournaments where they're like waiting for you and stuff. That's really cool.

[Joe Rogan]

That's a Miyamoto Musashi move.

[Tony Hinchcliffe]

No Samurai.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Honestly like that's.

[Tony Hinchcliffe]

Me.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Being late is down to a couple of things. First, I hate waiting. But also I just, I'm terrible at planning. So that's why I keep showing up late.

[Joe Rogan]

Terrible at planning. You know, funny that is. It's literally what you do better than anybody.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Like my planning is always based on everything going perfectly and like making a time plan based on that. And if something goes a little bit wrong then I'm going to be late. And like something usually goes wrong or often enough that it becomes a thing. Like as you talked about in chess, there's this video that a lot of people have talked about where I come, There's a blitz game, right? And that's three minutes and I come like two and a half minutes late because I've been skiing in the mountains and there was a, there was an accident on the road that delayed me like half an hour like most people would have planned for that had a little bit of buffer. But I was like eh, that was probably going to be fine. Certainly. Suddenly there's an accident and I'm going to be late and I'm just running into the playing hall in my sweatpants and not even realizing that the game has started. I just thought I was so late that I should be. And I saw that everybody was there and then randomly turned out half a minute left when, when I got to the, got to the board. So that's kind of more.

[Joe Rogan]

How'd you play the game? Did you, did you like have a different approach because you knew you only had 30 seconds?

[Magnus Carlsen]

No, the thing is like there you have a 2 second increment per move. So I'm not going to lose some time automatically. I just had to play a little bit faster. But it was, it was okay. But as I said, like, I don't do those things to intimidate my opponents. I'm just, that would be such a mind fuck.

[Joe Rogan]

Guy shows up two and a half minutes late, still stomps you.

[Tony Hinchcliffe]

Yeah, I don't think many people know about the skiing delay or anything. I think it was thought of as like a. I'm a badass, I'm coming in late.

[Magnus Carlsen]

No, honestly, that was like the world championships and chess, like they were being held in the weirdest places. So this was in, in Almaty, Kazakhstan, which this is like really during winter at least, pretty polluted, not very nice city. And then just half an hour out of the city you have basically the Alps. You have beautiful mountains that goes up to, to three and a half thousand meters where it's just fantastic. And you can, you can like get. Yeah. From, from the city. It's like an hour and you're at the top of the mountain and having a beautiful ski vacation. And I just like, was so miserable being down in the city that I thought for this day, like, if I'm going to perform at all today, like, I need some fresh air. I like, I need to get out of here. And so that's why I took the risk. And it was, yeah, definitely not, not to, to play, to play mind games because I, Bobby Fischer said about chess that I don't believe in psychology. I believe in good moves. Like, I believe in like a little bit of both. But I'm more in his school that I just, I think I'm going to make better moves and I don't need that. All those other things.

[Tony Hinchcliffe]

Did you ever have an opponent that was doing something psychological that kind of messed you up or threw you off? Like back when I was a wrestler in high school, some guys wouldn't shower and it would be disgusting. Right. Is there anything like that in chess?

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah, that specific thing has, has happened for sure. I'm not sure if it's been, if it's been a conscious choice by my opponents. I'm sure I've been guilty, guilty of it as well. That's, that, that's true. I don't know really. I, I think the only thing is not to bring that up again. But I, I think when, when I think that my, my opponent might be cheating, that's, that's the only time that I'm really, I'm really off.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, it's just weird that you can cheat and do it for so long and yet still play in the best tournaments. You would think that like, like in the ufc, like say if you get caught with steroids, you get a long ban and you can't. And if you get caught again, you get an even longer ban. And I think it's like a three strike thing. If you caught a third time, you're out of the sport forever.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah, no, it's the, the thing is.

[Joe Rogan]

That we think harsher penalties would discourage people.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Oh yeah, for sure. Especially for, for online because there's been this thinking that cheating over the board and over online is like very different. But the thing is like once people, once people are cheating online, then having these meteoric rises over the board as well. You think that's a bit strange?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Magnus Carlsen]

So yeah, there definitely needs to be, to be harsher penalties. One thing that Chess.com used to do is that they would let people sort of confess privately and then get their account back. But now they're moving to more naming and shaming sort of thing with, and banning people for longer. Which I think is. Yeah, it's a lot, it's a lot better. But a lot of it is about incentives as well. Right. Like if you think that you can get away with cheating and there are monetary incentives to cheat, people are going to cheat. As simple as that.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, Well, I guess that's just with every pursuit, there's always going to be people that look for shortcuts. There's always going to be someone who looks to skirt around the difficult path.

[Magnus Carlsen]

No, that's true. But the thing is like there's so little you need in chess and the engines are so powerful. Like if I started cheating, you would never know. The thing is like I would, I would get like a move here and there. That's all I need. Or maybe imagine I'm playing a tournament. I just find a system where I get somebody to signal me when there's a critical moment. Like if a certain move, if there's a moment where a certain move is much better than the others, that's really all I would need to go from being the best to being practically unbeatable. Right. So it really is a scary situations situation. There have been these cases of so many cases of people who are acting suspiciously and who are making suspicious, having suspicious results based on the data. But they're very like, if you're not cheating in a dumb way, there rarely is going to be a smoking gun. And without that smoking gun, it's really hard to catch. Catch People.

[Joe Rogan]

How would you eliminate that other than security? Would you have it so there's no audience members at all and have them only in a room together?

[Magnus Carlsen]

No. So that has been, that has been done in world championships, for instance. Like we're basically play. We're basically been playing like in a glass box that. Where you can see. Where you can see where like you cannot see the audience and you cannot hear anything. So it's a glass proof. Glass proof box. I kind of. That's like. You kind of don't want that. You want there to be like. I really like having chess more like an esports setting where people can be as loud as they want. It's just you have players sit down like boxers with headsets and.

[Joe Rogan]

But don't headsets open up the possibility of cheating?

[Magnus Carlsen]

But then like the headsets would be all provided by the organizers.

[Joe Rogan]

Right. So some sort of.

[Magnus Carlsen]

And you, you'd have to have like both. We have had that in tournament like tournaments that you have to have white noise and some kind of sound from like Spotify or what if you want to listen to classical music or, or whatever, you can do that. Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

So you can listen to Wu Tang Clan while you play chess. Yeah.

[Magnus Carlsen]

I mean honestly. Honestly playing blitz chess helped. Listening to music usually helps me because like doing tasks that are more intuition based then that helps with the flow. With longer games you probably don't want that disturbance. But I've definitely played some of my best blitz chess. Just. Yeah. Listening. Listening to music. What are you sitting there bopping? Yeah, I think some wild Norwegian music. Ramstein or something that's actually German. But they have some good. They have some good songs. No, I think my best, my just my best chess has probably been Norwegian rap.

[Joe Rogan]

Norwegian rap.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Really?

[Joe Rogan]

What's a good Norwegian rap band that you could rap group that you could recommend?

[Magnus Carlsen]

There's a guy called Mr. Pimp Lotion and Oral B. Mr. Pimp Lotion and Oral B. They're kind of. It's like a little bit ironic, but they're like doing like American like west coast rap in, in Norwegian.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, that sounds badass.

[Magnus Carlsen]

This is a bit of a difference. But I, I actually, I actually did a song with Mr. Pimp Lotion. I should did a song with those guys.

[Joe Rogan]

What a great name. Mr. Pimp Lotion.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah, yeah. My verse is like right at the end.

[Joe Rogan]

I like it too because I don't have any idea what the words are saying.

[Tony Hinchcliffe]

Yeah, yours is at the end.

[Magnus Carlsen]

No, basically there's. Yeah. The thing about the. What happened was that they did a show and they have this, this thing called Spinoor, which is like a moisturizer mostly used for, for animals, but like this Mr. Pimplocean, like, he's obsessed with that one. And somebody apparently stole that from backstage at their concert. And so they didn't know who it was, but they eventually found out and they made a song about it. And so they had a bunch of people, like, sending their verses.

[Tony Hinchcliffe]

Incredible. The difference between America and Norway, what the rappers are rapping about. There's gang wars and shootings, and in Norway, somebody's like, who's stole my load?

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah, there actually was a, There actually was a popular song like about 20 years ago that referenced specifically that in Norwegian that there was nothing to rap about because nothing bad ever happened. That's what he's saying.

[Joe Rogan]

Don't make. Pull out the gun. It's best that someone speak out. Who stole the spinol? Who stole my lotion?

[Magnus Carlsen]

Yeah, basically there's a bunch of verses like people accusing each other, and then I randomly come in at the very end and solve the mystery.

[Tony Hinchcliffe]

Ah, was it you?

[Magnus Carlsen]

Oh, it wasn't me. I, I was, I was not at that particular show. But yeah, I think I, I think like the best online chess that I've ever played was probably listening, listening to their, to their music. Wow.

[Joe Rogan]

Do you mix it up? Do you ever listen to, like, Led Zeppelin or.

[Magnus Carlsen]

No, I, I, I listen to a lot of, a lot of older, older stuff as well. So, yeah, I'm like, I have no idea what's on the chart these days in general, but I find out through.

[Joe Rogan]

Tony, I find out through the young guys at the club. I'm like, what are you listening to? What is this? Yeah, you know, do Shazam on it and put it on my Spotify playlist.

[Magnus Carlsen]

That sometimes happens to me as well. Maybe like once a year or something. Yeah, Otherwise it's. I remember, like, I asked my sister probably like 10 years ago, like, I saw his playlist and I was like, do you have anything from before 2000? Like, yeah, of course. Britney Spears, baby, one more time, 1999. So I'm kind of the opposite of that.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, that's awesome. Well, listen, man, it's been awesome having you in here. I really appreciate you doing this. And tell everybody when the Netflix show is out.

[Magnus Carlsen]

I don't know, but it's, it's in within a few months for sure.

[Joe Rogan]

Jamie, do you know, didn't say when it's coming out? Well, we will put it up on the Instagram when it's out. And it's been awesome talking to you, man. I really appreciate it.

[Magnus Carlsen]

Thank you.

[Joe Rogan]

Thanks for coming in. All right, Tony, fun times. Fun times.

[Magnus Carlsen]

All right, Goodbye, everybody.