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- [00:02]
Joe Rogan
Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.
- [00:04]
Jacques Vallée
The Joe Rogan Experience.
- [00:06]
Advertisement Voice
Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night.
- [00:09]
Joe Rogan
All day. Very good to see you.
- [00:15]
Jacques Vallée
Good to see you.
- [00:16]
Joe Rogan
I really enjoyed our conversation last night. We all went out to dinner, and Hal Puthoff blew my mind.
- [00:24]
Jacques Vallée
As you know, I've known him for a long time.
- [00:26]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. When did you meet him? What year?
- [00:28]
Jacques Vallée
I knew him at sri, actually. I was at Stanford Research Institute before him in one of the very early Internet research teams when there was no Internet. It was called the arpanet. It was the network of the Advanced Research Project Agency, and it was all, you know, computer experiment and so on. I turned into. We had engine number three on the Internet at SRI in California. Engine number three.
- [01:01]
Joe Rogan
So it was part of that.
- [01:02]
Jacques Vallée
By the time I joined them, there were, like, 30 machines already. So. And it was exciting. And then, you know, Dr. Puthoff and Russell Tark came in with a proposal to SRI to do parapsychology research at sri, which had never been done. And it was funny because the. So I was already there, you know, in a team.
- [01:31]
Joe Rogan
What year was this? What year?
- [01:34]
Jacques Vallée
Oh, God, 74. 74. And it was funny because I was in my office and the vice president of SRI came in, closed the door, and said, jacques, you know, you've published some things that were controversial under your name on UFOs, and you haven't lost your scientific reputation, which is why you're here working for us at SRI on the ARPANET. But, you know, there's a proposal from Dr. Puthoff and Dr. Tark to do parapsychology research here, and we've never done that. And I said, well, you know, it's a very valid. I think it's a very valid area of research. We should. You know, we're the kind of institution that should do that. He said, well, let me draw something on your whiteboard. And he drew a scale, a horizontal scale, and on one side there was a little square. He said, this is the most we can expect in terms of funding for research in parapsychology. You know, it's maybe at most a million a year. Okay? And here is what I manage in this division, drew a huge cube, said, $150 million. Should we jeopardize the research we do for Xerox and IBM&AT&T bank of America and so on, just to do some research on psychic things. And I said, well, you know, the reason we get all this money from DOD and Bank of America and so on is that we do the research that they can't do themselves. We do, we do the, you know, we go out and we take risk. And I think we should take the same risk with Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ, because this could be, you know, there is a lot of literature on this already and we can bring the science into it and they can bring the science into it, you know. And he said, well, there is a meeting of a board of directors of sri, you know, in two days. And most of them are against it. What do I tell them? And I said, well, I can, you know, I can write up the reasons why in science you have to take chances. And this is science. I mean, this isn't just engineering. And he said, well, give me a memo by tomorrow at 12. So I went home and I wrote a two page memo which was confidential. I don't think anybody has seen it for the board explaining why there was scientific evidence, you know, enough of it, so that good research could be done. And I, you know, obviously that may have helped in getting the approval for them to come in. And then after the first year, you know, they were there because, you know, the money kept coming and the results, you know, good scientific results came in.
- [05:29]
Joe Rogan
So when you say parapsychology, specifically, what were you attempting to study?
- [05:34]
Jacques Vallée
So most of parapsychology, as the name indicates, has been studied by psychologists, people who have experiences and they relate their experiences and they have strange dreams, they have all that. And then that has been structured by people doing experiments, for example, you know, trying to move objects with your mind, trying to, of course, send messages psychically to other people and, or guessing what's written in a closed envelope and so on, that kind of thing. But again, those were done by good experimentalists, but it wasn't. Where is the physics of it? I mean, you know, because in physics those things are not supposed to happen.
- [06:29]
Joe Rogan
Without an understanding of a sense that perhaps we're not quite aware of.
- [06:34]
Jacques Vallée
That's right. And that, you know, our physics has been dealing with objects and with atoms and all that. But it's clear in modern physics that there are other things and that the theories we have about the different fields in the universe are in conflict with each other and all relativity and quantum mechanics are in conflict.
- [06:59]
Joe Rogan
I was reading something that was God. I glanced at it quickly and I was running out the door, but I was going to ask Jamie to pull it up. There's new research that shows that human beings have the ability to detect the magnetic field the same way that birds do when they fly south and other animals, they believe do when they navigate terrain, they think that human beings have this ability. But perhaps it's something that we have ignored so long it's atrophied, or it's not something that we use.
- [07:36]
Jacques Vallée
That's a question for biologists or specialists of the brain. Although it may not be in the brain itself, it may be diffused in the organism. So I'm not really qualified.
- [07:52]
Joe Rogan
Well, I was going to ask Jamie to pull up the article, but the point being that there perhaps are senses that we're either not aware of. Humans, like other animals, may sense Earth's magnetic field. Yeah, this is it. Okay, this is from a while ago. This is from 2019. Okay, this is not the same article, but it's probably a rehash. There's another similar one here from like a month ago. That's exact same title. Yes, that's what I saw.
- [08:17]
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- [09:10]
Joe Rogan
Now.
- [09:11]
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- [09:19]
Jacques Vallée
You look at the history of the islands in the Pacific, like I spent some time in Tahiti and I looked at their traditions. They were navigating the Pacific, fine. They knew where they were going. Now, part of that was navigating with the moon, but part of it was something else. And on every ship they had one man who was gifted in guiding with respect, of course, guiding with respect to what the ocean looked like and to the moon and so on. But also that's never really been explained. They had an uncanny ability to get to the right islands, know on the way to their destination and to guide those ships. Otherwise they would have been, you know, they didn't have compasses.
- [10:15]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [10:16]
Jacques Vallée
And there are books now coming out. Certainly I Found some of those books in, you know, in Tahiti about the history of that and the research that's been done into those people. But they were, they were special people. They were, you know, they were gifted. That's not something, you know, that I could do.
- [10:43]
Joe Rogan
Have you heard or listened to the telepathy tapes? The telepathy tapes. Are you aware of this?
- [10:52]
Jacques Vallée
Vaguely.
- [10:53]
Joe Rogan
It's a podcast that's about non verbal autistic kids that demonstrate psychic ability. Provable. They've got dozens of these cases on video where people in other rooms are looking at objects. The child, completely locked off, can't see them at all, will say and write down what those objects are. Colors, numbers in sequence, and very accurately. And so they believe that this is something that. Well, many of these parents have talked about it in the past, but felt foolish, felt like it was something that they would be ridiculed about. And so they didn't want to talk about it openly. But once they started gathering up information, they got more people to open up about this. Then they start documenting it and they start coming up with ways to make sure that there couldn't be any possible way they could be communicating with each other. And it's just utterly fascinating because they're showing that there is something going on. There's some way of transferring information back and forth, including. Some of these teachers have figured out a way to not just receive but also transmit the same way these children have. So people that aren't nonverbal and they aren't autistic, these people are able to do it as well. They've been able to create a bond with these children and communicate with them.
- [12:12]
Jacques Vallée
And there are companies in Silicon Valley that are heavily involved in advanced processing and advanced programming, specifically recruiting young men and women with that kind of talent. One of my. I have three grandsons that I love and one of them is. It's not clear, you know, whether he's actually autistic in the current definition, but he certainly has some of that, you know, some of those indications of some.
- [12:47]
Joe Rogan
Sort of a gift.
- [12:48]
Jacques Vallée
Yeah. Of thinking and getting information in ways that are very different from the now. It may be that in evolution, the reason, sort of quote, lower animals can do it and we cannot is that we've developed other ways of getting information that are more reliable in the long run. So it may be just one of the dormant abilities that we have that most of us don't develop and we're not encouraged to grow it in school because it's disturbing for the rest. Rest of the Class and so on.
- [13:31]
Joe Rogan
And perhaps it's something that people had before language and language and then written language. And then, of course, media sort of eroded those abilities.
- [13:42]
Jacques Vallée
Yes. And you find that also in South America and in Australia, you know, Australia, New Zealand, and the indigenous people. Yes, natives, but, you know, up to the current population.
- [14:02]
Joe Rogan
Right. So perhaps it's something that we all had and we've lost it now. When you were initially studying parapsychology, what were the protocols that you were using? Like, how were you trying to determine whether or not people were capable?
- [14:18]
Jacques Vallée
So, you know, again, in my own. I've studied parapsychology more as a personal interest, but Dr. Puthoff and Dr. Tagg were doing it with scientific controls. I mean, that was the point, to look at it from a physics point of view, not just from a parapsychology or psychology point of view. So they were designing tests that were more tied to physical quantities. And one of the people that they brought in was Ingo Swann, who was an artist from New York. He was very uncomfortable with California. The sky is always blue. You know, it's boring, and so on. And he liked New York. He liked the animation of the city and his friends and so on. But I knew, of course, of him. I had read some of the things. So when he came to sri, he told me that, you know, remote viewing is one thing, parapsychology, but it should be applied to science. And also, you know, it had to be applied to intelligence in the sense of, you know, the. The intelligence agencies were funding SRI to do this, the three letter agencies. There were a number of them who are very interested because they knew that gift existed in pilots and in a number of people.
- [16:07]
Joe Rogan
And so they were trying to figure out a way to utilize this for.
- [16:09]
Jacques Vallée
Military applications, mostly to look at developments in the Soviet Union at that point.
- [16:15]
Joe Rogan
Oh, so they were trying.
- [16:16]
Jacques Vallée
But also no. Lost spacecraft. They found lost spacecraft in the middle of a jungle in Africa and so on, by parapsychology.
- [16:26]
Joe Rogan
Whose spacecraft? Ours?
- [16:30]
Jacques Vallée
No, it was Russian.
- [16:32]
Joe Rogan
So they found it through, like, remote viewing.
- [16:35]
Jacques Vallée
Yes.
- [16:36]
Joe Rogan
Really?
- [16:39]
Jacques Vallée
So Ingo was starting to go around the labs at sri. He wanted to. He had never been in a scientific institution. It's full of computers and gadgets and measuring instruments and everything else. So he wanted to know. He saw that as the next domain where parapsychology could be applied in a strict, scientific, rational way. So I was one of the people that he wanted to talk to. And I told him, do you know how a computer finds data? You have a computer, a Machine full of chips. How does it deal with the real world? And he said, I have no idea. I mean, I've never looked inside a computer. And I said, well, there's three ways. As a programmer. I can declare a variable. I can say X is always going to be 3.14, PI. But in many cases, I can give you the address of the place where I've put the data. But it's going to be different. The address is going to be the same, but the data is going to change every time. But I can give you the address. It's 2314. 2314 is where I'm going to put the age of the patient. Okay, but it's going to be different with every patient. So that's direct addressing. But I can also put in that location. I can put the address of somewhere else, which I'm going to compute in my program. And that's indirect addressing. And then there's the rest of the world, which is too big to put inside the machine. I mean, the machine has a memory, maybe very big, but. But it's still limited. So it's going to go get the information from some memory device somewhere else, maybe the World bank or the Library of Congress there. I cannot give you the address, but I can give you a sort of imaginary process by which you can derive the address when you get there and bring it into the memory of your computer and then work with. And he said, you know, that's it. That's what I need. And then he came up with the idea of coordinate remote viewing out of that conversation I had with him. So that was my contribution to the actual project at the beginning. And then he thought as an address, he was going to take coordinates, longitude and latitude because we were going to look at. They were going to. I wasn't officially part of the. But I was, you know, I had passed the qualifications to be at SRI in a Department of Defense project. So I was one of the good guys. So we had many conversations with Kafi and so on in the lab, with Ingo and later with Uri Geller that were absolutely fascinating to me. So I tried to. In some cases, they needed to talk to someone who knew technology and was interested in this, even though I wasn't, you know, on the project itself, but somebody who was inside, you know, so that the information didn't get out into the real world until they were ready to actually publish it, because everybody wanted to kill their project. I mean, there were so many skeptics saying, you know, this can't work. They are making it up. They are fooled by a prestidigitator. You know, Uri Geller is a magician and all those things. Well, he is a magician, but he's also, you know, an extraordinaire.
- [21:02]
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- [21:11]
Joe Rogan
Take Kibble for example.
- [21:12]
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- [23:39]
Joe Rogan
So could you explain. So they're looking for this Russian spacecraft. So how do they. What's the environment in which they remote view? How do they set this up?
- [23:51]
Jacques Vallée
So Ingo, after the project was pretty much over, there was some continuous studies, and Ingo brought me back to work with him because he wanted to write a book that would be a synthesis of his methodology to answer your question of how do you do this? And he had a very structured way of doing that with a number of. What he wanted to do was train people to do that, hopefully to his level. So it was step by step. So there was a. First you had a pad of paper, you know, and a pen. And he was sitting at the end. The table was about like this, you know, except there was nothing on it. In a room that had nothing on the walls, no windows. There was a chair here and a chair there. So he was away from me. I couldn't see what he was reading. He had a stack of targets that were places on the Earth. And I mean, obviously the idea was to look at what was going on in, you know, Vladivostok or in some.
- [25:15]
Joe Rogan
When you say a stack of targets, can you explain, like, is it a map? Is it just coordinates?
- [25:20]
Jacques Vallée
It was just coordinates. So just numbers gotten the maps. And those were test things from, you know, geographic features on the Earth, cities, mountains and so on. So he would read out the coordinates. And I had a pad of paper and a number two pencil. So everything was very coded, you know, very strict. And I would draw something that he called an ideogram. So it could be like this, you know, it could be a curve, it could be. And then just first impression. His theory, which I think, you know, having experienced it, we did that for a year Now. I had a job somewhere else, but I was coming two mornings a week, you know, to work with him. And this was classified. So other people at SRI had no idea what was going on in that room that was dedicated to his work. And the he would read out. His idea was that we can all get that signal. There is a signal. If I give you a longitude and a latitude, you potentially can describe what's there. If it's a city, if it's a mountain, if it's Someplace in the country. The reason you cannot is that the signal is overwhelming. The signal is extraordinarily large, much larger than we can hold it in our brains. So the people who do that have a way of processing the signal and recalling it. And that's the secret. That's the main thing to me that's come out of the SRI study, among many things. So his idea was, you have to stop the signal. You have to catch it. It's going to be very, very fast. And most people just go on with their life. It's just a passing thing, but you can recall the signal. So he would read out the coordinates again. Now my little scribble is going to turn into maybe a series of waves and then a city with skyscrapers. If we do that a number of ways now, there are a lot of errors that can come in, and then we can think. We recognize it and try to name it. That's the thing you shouldn't do. You shouldn't try to name it, because to name it put it in the other half of the brain, which is logical and rational. And, you know, so the idea is to label that as an error. You know, it's not a city by the bay. It's something else. So we go on and we keep just going on. So you have to do that with a very patient guide, you know, to train yourself to do that. And sri, you know, Hal and Ingo did that, you know, very well in training a cadre of people who could be almost, not quite, but almost as good as Ingo. And there were a couple who were as good as he was one time. No, I said, but Ingo, you know, I'm not psychic. He said, well, you know, think about that, because you've shown evidence of having. Of understanding the process. You know, there are some things that I did that would be classified as psychic, but I cannot do it. I cannot control it.
- [29:20]
Joe Rogan
Right. It just happens randomly.
- [29:21]
Jacques Vallée
Yeah.
- [29:22]
Joe Rogan
What kind of. Like, what kind of things?
- [29:23]
Jacques Vallée
Well, one time I get there 8:30 in the morning, we close the door, and he gives me a set of coordinates, longitude and latitude somewhere. And I get very cold right away, and I get dizzy, you know, I mean, I have to grab the table and I'm not drawing anything. And Ingo says, jacques, what's wrong? And I said, ingo, I don't know where you're sending me, but I'm cold, I'm trembling, I'm afraid. I'm afraid of falling. And, you know, I really don't feel well. And he said, you are on top of a peak in the Andes.
- [30:09]
Joe Rogan
Whoa.
- [30:11]
Jacques Vallée
So he pulls out the thing, he gives it to me. That comes from, you know, a photograph of the Andes taken from an airplane with this peak. And they computed the coordinates of the peak. And that's what he was giving me. And I was there.
- [30:33]
Joe Rogan
You felt it physically, did you see it or did you just feel it?
- [30:36]
Jacques Vallée
No, it was just a physiological reaction of my whole body. Exactly as if you were on freezing cold peak. And I was very afraid of falling.
- [30:46]
Joe Rogan
Wow.
- [30:46]
Jacques Vallée
I was falling.
- [30:48]
Joe Rogan
And had you had any of these that didn't work? Did they try any?
- [30:53]
Jacques Vallée
Oh, yeah, yes, sure. I'm not. You should not use me as a remote viewer to launch, you know, a tomahawk over somewhere. That's a problem that, of course, the army has. You know, is it good enough so we can launch a rocket, destroy that thing?
- [31:14]
Joe Rogan
Right. Who is the best at it? Who's the best at remote? Is there one person that's consistently accurate?
- [31:21]
Jacques Vallée
There are a couple, and they are not. You know, Ingo was known because he wrote about it and so on. Many of them. Joe McMonagle is probably the best one alive today. He described a structure and he described a ship that was being built by the Russians, which was a super submarine in a hangar somewhere. And the navy just laughed at him. They said, that's crazy. You know, you. It's in a hangar away from the sea. So why would you build a ship when you don't have the ocean? Well, it turned out he was right. It was a super class new Soviet submarine. He described the inside of the building, which had no windows and so on. And yeah, I mean, from a satellite they could see the building, but they couldn't see inside the building. He described what was inside the building. He described the submarine. They described the length and, you know, he actually measured it psychically and that turned out to be right. And then when the submarine was built, they brought some bulldozers and they dug a channel to the sea and off it went.
- [32:53]
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- [33:00]
Joe Rogan
When you need it.
- [33:01]
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- [33:03]
Joe Rogan
We can't know everything.
- [33:04]
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- [33:22]
Joe Rogan
Go to them for help.
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Joe Rogan
And even more importantly, you can do.
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- [34:22]
Jacques Vallée
Those things were extraordinary.
- [34:24]
Joe Rogan
I had heard about this, but I didn't know it was that accurate.
- [34:29]
Jacques Vallée
Yeah, that happened. And he was as opposed to, you know, one of us. He was right, you know, enough of the time that you could rely on what he was describing. And also they came up with a way of measuring, actually quantifying the value of your perception. So I told Ingo, you know, let's do another one because I'm on a roll here, you know, after this peak in the Andes. He said, no, Jacques, you know, you're going home now. He said, It's 9:00. You know, we've only been here half an hour. Why are you sending me home? I mean, this is great. I got it. He said, yeah, you got it. You don't need all the levels. I mean, you got to the top level. You were there.
- [35:24]
Joe Rogan
Why did he want to send you home?
- [35:25]
Jacques Vallée
He said, I want you to stay with that feeling. I don't want to do another one that you'd miss and so on. I want you to keep that in mind because you got the whole thing.
- [35:37]
Joe Rogan
Is this based on past experiments and the way they were achieving results?
- [35:43]
Jacques Vallée
Yes.
- [35:43]
Joe Rogan
So he didn't want to bombard you.
- [35:45]
Jacques Vallée
Every, you know, every test subject and so on.
- [35:49]
Joe Rogan
So he didn't want to give you another experience. He wanted you to take that experience and just sit with it.
- [35:54]
Jacques Vallée
Keep the experience with me during the day because I got the whole signal.
- [35:59]
Joe Rogan
Right. And did you feel like that if you did that it would aid you in your ability to do it in the future?
- [36:05]
Jacques Vallée
It would, yes. I would lose that sense of direct access to something that bypasses the brain, you know, basically. You know, I was trained in mathematics and physics and astronomy. So I use the power of my brain that's analytical, you know, and I'm a good programmer, computer programmer and so on. This is not. This is very different. This is grabbing a signal which has everything in it, you know, and being able to catch it very fast and just get a little bit of information and then catch it again, recall it. You know, that's what we were doing that, you know, five times, six times, 10 times, until making sure that you don't try to name it, you don't try to put a description on top of it. It's just stay with the signal. And I think that's an amazing contribution from what Dr. Puthoff and TAG and some of their subjects did.
- [37:21]
Joe Rogan
Was there a specific way that you achieved a state of mind that made you more able to perceive coordinates or perceive what signal you're getting from remote viewing?
- [37:37]
Jacques Vallée
There was. I had a lot of admiration and love for Ingo for what he was capable of doing and, you know, his art and his personality and so on. He was, you know, very much admired in the whole team. And here I think it was the structure also of the experiment. You know, I trusted what he was trying to teach me. I've always.
- [38:10]
Joe Rogan
So you were open to it?
- [38:12]
Jacques Vallée
Yes.
- [38:13]
Joe Rogan
You trusted it. So you were open to it.
- [38:14]
Jacques Vallée
I had, you know, both the admiration and the trust.
- [38:19]
Joe Rogan
Did he ask you to put your mind in a specific place? Was there a way of counting yourself into.
- [38:25]
Jacques Vallée
The idea is not to put my mind into it, just to let it.
- [38:30]
Joe Rogan
Just let it come. Just be.
- [38:32]
Jacques Vallée
Because my mind is analytical.
- [38:33]
Joe Rogan
Right. Of course.
- [38:35]
Jacques Vallée
And, you know, I was always very good in math. And, you know, I mean, you have to be if you're going to be an astronomer. And so I can be very structured and so on. This is not structured. This is boom. And then you can begin to analyze it. But you have to analyze it, keeping your rational mind away from.
- [39:10]
Joe Rogan
So you just have to let the information come to you somehow or another and not try to imagine the information or create the information.
- [39:19]
Jacques Vallée
Right.
- [39:20]
Joe Rogan
Just let it happen to you. And so you had seen him do this, and so you. And you knew that this was a valid field of research. So you were just open to it, and you just sat down there and tried to let it happen to you. Did it happen any other time? That was. That resembled the Andes Peaks, where you have that overwhelming feeling of cold and falling. Did you have that feeling with anything.
- [39:47]
Jacques Vallée
Else, yes, I had some of that, but this one was, you know, just completely shocking because it was. And I think that's a characteristic of the. When you really get it, you know, there is no question. And you know, in the movie, Patton, yes, Patton is sent to North Africa because to fight Rommel. Rommel is there with his tanks and the American army is going to. Isn't ready to invade Europe, but wants to start controlling the Germans in North Africa. He's sent there, he lands there is a lieutenant there with a jeep that takes him to the place where there was a battle and the Americans were decimated by Rommel was just a genius German general, great with tanks, just like he was. Patton considered him as his major enemy because both of them understood tanks. So Patton gets in the jeep that's in the movie. It's just absolutely perfect. I've checked that this was historical, you know, exact in the movie. They drive to the site of the battle and they get to. In the desert in the jeep and they get to a fork in the road and the driver takes to the left and Patton said, son, why don't we go to the right? Because that's where the battle was. And the driver says, sir, you know, with all due respect, I was there in that battle. It's on the left. He said, trust me, go to the right. And they go to the right and they get to the edge of a plateau where you see a big plain. And Patton says, this is where the battle was with Hannibal came from the left with his elephants, you know, and the battle was there, you know, and I had been there. I was there. Patton thought that in his. He was reincarnated from a Roman general who had been at that battle against Hannibal and his elephants. And you know, the poor driver saying, how did this happen? You know, how did I get here with this general who thinks he's reincarnated, you know, who fought against Hannibal? And I've worked with people, as you know, I've run a number of venture capital field funds with people who had that kind of intuition. And you think finance is driven by greed and so on, but at some level, greed doesn't really matter. It's getting to the truth of something, especially in venture capital, where you're going to change the way things are done with these gadgets, with computers, with, you know, rockets and so on. You're going to go to a new generation of things. So it hasn't been done before. And the financial people, you've got 10 engineers in front of you who can do it, there is one who will succeed, nine who's going to fail. And you have to pick. You have to pick the thinking that's going to succeed. You know, I mean, it's not the money and it's not the technology. It's the mind of the driver who say, no, let's go to the right, let's not go to the left. You know, I mean, Patton was extraordinary in that. I mean, he was a remote viewer. He demonstrated that again and again. You know, there are some interesting books that I've collected from some of the. Some of his lieutenants, you know, who.
- [44:27]
Joe Rogan
You would also have to consider. That's an extraordinary state of mind to be a general in a world war. And the consequences of everything you do and what is at stake in this war is got to be a state of mind that's very, very unusual with so many consequences, so much pressure that it probably makes some signals more clear if you have that ability to perceive them. Because you are. You must be in a heightened state of awareness.
- [44:59]
Jacques Vallée
Yes.
- [44:59]
Joe Rogan
Because just the consequences of your life.
- [45:02]
Jacques Vallée
Exactly. But you also have to be detached. I mean, you know, eventually he's going to go to the battlefield where the, you know, bodies of soldiers who've been killed, they're burning tanks and everything else. They show that in the movie. I mean, that's where he's supposed to, to go. Yeah, but, you know, his, his mind is at a different level.
- [45:30]
Joe Rogan
And when did they first start researching this and when did they believe that this was an ability that some people had?
- [45:39]
Jacques Vallée
Oh, you know, way back in antiquity.
- [45:43]
Joe Rogan
Really?
- [45:44]
Jacques Vallée
Yeah. And, you know, they, they had seers that the, the king would go consult whether he. He should engage in. In a war with.
- [46:06]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [46:06]
Jacques Vallée
You know, they had the, the Greeks had the Pythia, you know, who was a woman who. They. They had a volcanic area where there were fumes coming out of the earth. You know, that was supposed to be one of the doors to the underworld and so on. And there was a special cult around that place. And, you know, the king would go there before Great decision and would ask the message from, you know, the underworld or the message from the. From the mind of the woman who was interpreting what was coming from the earth. So that has been, you know, regarded as, you know, Hitler, Adolf Hitler was in his. Before the war. You know, when he got to be the leader of Germany, he exhibited and he very much believed in those powers. I think he got to the point where he trusted it too much and he started making mistakes and that could be used against him. Because the ego, you know, you have to get the ego out of the way. Of course, that's the hardest thing, you know, for us to do, especially to.
- [47:42]
Joe Rogan
A narcissist dictator who's on drugs.
- [47:45]
Jacques Vallée
That's right. Yeah, that's right.
- [47:49]
Joe Rogan
Well, that, that's the always the age old problem with Sears, like how do you know who's a charlatan and who's real? Because there's always a bunch of fake psychics, there's fake palm readers, fake tarot card readers, people that are just con artists that are just trying to swindle people out of money. But that doesn't discount the possibility that some people have these bizarre abilities. And that is something that people have sort of recognized forever. But it's always been dismissed, especially in this modern day reductionist culture that likes to only look at things that are tried, true, proven, agreed upon, you know, and then trust the science, like this concept that.
- [48:35]
Jacques Vallée
Well, I think as you know, in science, I mean, the burden is on you as a scientist to come up with an experiment that will discriminate between the random things and you know, will give you guides to.
- [48:54]
Joe Rogan
You know, I think that's what they've done with the telepathy tapes. And I'm hoping the success of this and then they're going to do a whole series on it where they're doing a documentary and they're showing all the footage so you're gonna be able to see it for yourself. And I'm, I'm hoping that this stops the ridicule because there's a bunch of scientists when, and I think this is with the UAP topic as well, the UFO topic as well. I think there's a bunch of people that don't want to consider it because there's too much bullshit out there and there's too much of a possibility that you could look like a fool. And to a very respected scientist whose research is very important, as you were talking about with the IBM thing where there's hundreds of millions of dollars that are dedicated towards these. Why would you risk all that and the credibility of all that on this nonsense about people seeing things with their brain in a closed room, finding coordinates, pretending they're on top of a mountain, all that kind of stuff.
- [49:54]
Jacques Vallée
Well, fortunately, you know, certainly, you know, in California there are people who can take risk, you know, and put a few million dollars behind something.
- [50:13]
Joe Rogan
Shout out to Stanford.
- [50:14]
Jacques Vallée
Yeah, and you know, as you know, I come from France and in France it's very, very hard to do that because the system is very structured and very conventional and so on, even though France has had some of the brightest people in that kind of research.
- [50:33]
Joe Rogan
So it's just a cultural limitation of the culture.
- [50:37]
Jacques Vallée
Everything has to be rational.
- [50:41]
Joe Rogan
America's a little more chaotic.
- [50:43]
Jacques Vallée
And they also, as you know, France has had, for a long time, has had a project on UFOs, official project that takes reports from the public and they investigate them. And it's a very small team, but they have access to all the resources of French research. So they can get the weather people, they can get the Air Force, they can get the radar people, they can get all of that. So they can tap into the resources of a lot of different departments of. Of the government. So it's very powerful. So they will explain. They find a rational explanation for about 95% of all the reports, which is true. I agree with that. I've been there.
- [51:37]
Joe Rogan
So it's about 95% you can explain away.
- [51:40]
Jacques Vallée
It's not hoaxes. Those are people who really think that they've seen something unusual. But what was unusual to them may have been the moon rising through the fog and it looks like an elongated disc. And then after a while, things change and so on.
- [52:02]
Joe Rogan
Lightning. Yeah.
- [52:04]
Jacques Vallée
There's a few things they really think they've seen a flying saucer coming over. There are about 200 or 250 possible physical things that really could surprise you that are unusual, that would create conditions under which a normal person would think that they are in the presence of a UFO. Then what's interesting is the other 5%. The other 5% is in your face. You know, I have reports of something that moved, like the Tic Tac, you know, from the French Air force. In the 50s, there was a French jet over Morocco that was flying and there was a radar tracking the jet. And I had the reports from the French Air Force with the chart and that the thing he was chasing went up, you know, all in a fraction of a second, went to the top of the atmosphere, you know, just like the, the Nimitz case. So those things are not new. I mean, they've. They are in the files, if you take the trouble to look at the facts.
- [53:22]
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Joe Rogan
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- [54:44]
Joe Rogan
They're in the files. Far back enough in history that it's impossible to imagine human technology achieving these things.
- [54:51]
Jacques Vallée
Absolutely. Well, especially in the 50s. I mean, right?
- [54:54]
Joe Rogan
Well, the Kenneth Arnold case, anything that.
- [54:56]
Jacques Vallée
Had gone into space.
- [54:57]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, there's, there's a bunch of cases that, that rule out the possibility of human technology. When you're talking about people using propeller planes and seeing these things. We were at a time technologically where it's not possible to imagine that someone had gone that far beyond us. Now we are in that time where you see things, you go, well, how much of that is some sort of top secret government program, some military program, and they have drones that can move at extraordinary speeds with some undisclosed propulsion system that's possible today, at least theoretically. It's, it's, you know, we, we entertain those ideas. But back then, this is one of the more fascinating things. I told you last night that I consumed three of your books in the last six months. And there was this series of three that you did that had a bunch of different encounters. Not just right now I'm on the Invisible College, but the last ones that I read were the ones on various contacts that people have had and the similarity of these stories. And they go way back, way back, way back before it was sort of a cultural artifact. Like right now, I think in people's minds, the gray aliens are so iconic. A flying saucer like that, that's a copy of the sport model from Bob Lazar's adventures. These things are in pop culture to the point where you almost would expect to see them. You know, you look for them. If you see something you could imagine that you could twist it up in your mind and make it like that. But the problem is these stories go way before that. They're too similar. They go a long, long way back. And there's too many that are very, very similar to what we're talking about today, to the point where a rational person would have to say, maybe there's something more to this. What do you got there?
- [57:03]
Jacques Vallée
I brought you this. It's a token. It's not a coin. It's a token from Burgundy in France. From the, you know, the. A few centuries ago, the Duke of Burgundy was under attack. There was a lot of turmoil in French politics and the King was fighting the noble, the great nobility and so on, was in cahoots to get rid of the King and so on, and they were going to be attacked, and he needed money to raise an army. And he appealed to people in Burgundy to send him money. And this was a token that they would. The King, the Duke, you know, would give people who had given him money to raise this army. And on the face of it is this disk. Yeah, that's holding up, that's protecting the land from forces above. You know, there are all these arrows raining down on the land, and the land is protected by this flying disk. So it doesn't mean that they had seen a flying saucer at that time, but the idea has always been there of, you know, disk like objects that were not meteors that were not, you know, all the natural explanation that were real disc. You find that in legends. You find that in, you know, in history. Jimmy, can you see if you could.
- [58:51]
Joe Rogan
Find an image of this? We could show people. You found it. Yeah, that's it.
- [58:55]
Jacques Vallée
Yep. Yes.
- [58:58]
Joe Rogan
Wow.
- [58:59]
Jacques Vallée
And you see, it's protecting the land and it's hovering in the sky, protecting it from all the thunder clouds above. Well, you know, there were a few of those things in history and, you know, as you know, I've collected those with a group of.
- [59:23]
Joe Rogan
Couldn't that be interpreted as a shield?
- [59:27]
Jacques Vallée
Well, it is shown as a shield, you know, that's going to stop all those arrows.
- [59:34]
Joe Rogan
Right, but that's what they used to stop arrows back then, they used a shield.
- [59:38]
Jacques Vallée
Yes, yes.
- [59:39]
Joe Rogan
So that doesn't that just make. I mean, that doesn't seem to me to be a ufo. It seems to me to be a shield that they would protect.
- [59:46]
Jacques Vallée
Yes, but it's also, you know, it's not exactly the shape of a, you know, of a shield. Most shields are, you know, more oblong, but some of them are round. But the point is it's hovering in the sky, protecting the land underneath.
- [60:08]
Joe Rogan
Okay. I think some of the more compelling stuff is like the stuff in the ancient Hindu scripts, the vimanas, and all these different flying crafts that people described. They've always been a thing that people.
- [60:22]
Jacques Vallée
Have described and we've been able to trace it to actual investigations or actual records. Because, of course, when people described something like that, especially if there was some sort of being associated with it, you know, it could be the devil, it could be so they had to see a priest and confess and, you know, and they were in trouble. If you reported that thing most of the time you'd be in trouble because it couldn't be a normal thing. You'd be a heretic today. They just, you know, they just fire you from wherever you work.
- [61:03]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, probably. Or if maybe you're a kook and then stop peace.
- [61:07]
Jacques Vallée
They don't burn you alive.
- [61:10]
Joe Rogan
And people. Yeah, that's lucky. But people do have a fear, a legitimate fear of being ridiculed. And that could stop their ability to, to be promoted within whatever organization they're in that you don't want to think, oh, there's Kooky Bob over there who thinks the aliens are watching us.
- [61:27]
Jacques Vallée
The best cases I get are from executives in Silicon Valley whose family has seen something or who have seen something and they've described, you know, frankly, UFOs to me. And there's another one, different coin from here later.
- [61:47]
Joe Rogan
So that looks way different. So that coin is much more compelling because that looks like something flying in the sky above the city. That doesn't look like a shield at all. And what is that peak at the bottom of it? The same thing. Yeah, that's very different.
- [62:01]
Jacques Vallée
You can tell.
- [62:02]
Advertisement Voice
Much more compelling.
- [62:03]
Jacques Vallée
Those things have been in the culture. Yeah. Sort of repressed in the culture. And, and the anthropologists don't want to look at that.
- [62:14]
Joe Rogan
There's a really old painting, like a biblical painting of these people that look like they're flying around and like seated in these crafts, they're in the sky. I've never seen any sort of a conventional explanation. What is that artist depicting?
- [62:33]
Jacques Vallée
So usually the explanation, when you read what the historians have said, it's supposed to be, you know, some God or some higher level entity that's coming to protect people and so on. But when you look at the detail, I mean, it really looks like a machine, it really looks mechanical.
- [62:58]
Joe Rogan
See if you can find that image. Jamie, do you know the one I'm talking about? This one? Yeah, that's exactly it.
- [63:03]
Jacques Vallée
But we wanted to.
- [63:05]
Joe Rogan
Like the one in the lower right. Well, both of them. But the lower. Like, what is that? That looks like a craft. It looks like someone seated in a craft.
- [63:12]
Jacques Vallée
It's an, you know, an envoy from God or an angel who's been sent. But the problem with those is that the painting, you know, it may relate to something that was written in the third century. The painting is a 16th century painting. So we didn't look at that that much. I mean, it's interesting from a. Like the one with the Virgin, with the. You know, so it may be that the. The artist was witness to something and he wanted to memorialize it and he put it in his painting. But it's not tied to the time of the Virgin, you know.
- [63:56]
Joe Rogan
Right, right, right. They just added it in there. What is that supposed to be in the background?
- [64:01]
Jacques Vallée
We stayed away from that. We. We wanted to go to records of somebody having actually testified that he saw something or she saw something.
- [64:11]
Joe Rogan
Right. Not just artwork.
- [64:13]
Jacques Vallée
Right.
- [64:14]
Joe Rogan
But it just is very bizarre that this artwork continually depicts people in crafts. And look, what is that thing?
- [64:25]
Jacques Vallée
And there is a communication with the man who's looking up at it. He's looking at it, and there is a sense of that. He's actually seeing it having a sense of what it is.
- [64:38]
Joe Rogan
It's like an Easter egg someone put into the painting.
- [64:40]
Jacques Vallée
So this movie, the artist sort of, you know, put that in as a side. Of course, the main theme is the Virgin and the Child.
- [64:54]
Joe Rogan
What's that one over there, Jamie, in the second row that says inside Ancient? Yeah, that one. What the hell is that? That's what really freaks me out, is the paintings on cave walls that look just like grays. Well, these bizarre paintings of things that just look like they are people wearing helmets.
- [65:18]
Jacques Vallée
And the most interesting to me come from the Sahara. You know, friends who are anthropologists who worked with the UN in Africa and so on in part of the Sahara. And one theory they have is that the culture that eventually moved to Egypt came from the Sahara. So I say, well, Sahara is just sand. Well, it's just sand today, but we know that at one time it was flourishing. There were forests, there was water. In fact, there is water, but it's underground water. It's a large amount of underground water. There was a sea there at one time, and so there. There probably was an earlier civilization. And some of those come from the Tassili. The Tassili is a region in the Sahara where there are a lot of those representations. So there were a lot of people living there at one time. And they painted that on the rocks.
- [66:33]
Joe Rogan
See if you can find some of those. Jamie. Yeah. You see similar things that indigenous people in Australia have painted. Similar thing. It's all over the world.
- [66:44]
Jacques Vallée
Yes.
- [66:45]
Joe Rogan
In completely separate environments. Very similar features in these cave paintings.
- [66:53]
Jacques Vallée
And. Well, I think archaeologists wouldn't disagree with that. I think they would say the problem is that we don't correlate it. I mean, they didn't write anything.
- [67:06]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [67:06]
Jacques Vallée
You know, the.
- [67:09]
Joe Rogan
It's open to interpretation.
- [67:10]
Jacques Vallée
We don't have a good correlation, so we have to keep looking for that. But that's fascinating. But in our book, we made the rule that, number one, we don't want isolated human figures, even with suits and so on. We really want a device, a flying device. You know, otherwise you have, you know, you could fill 40 books with images of strange creatures. Right. The. I mean, what are the things that people see, you know, in. Around the ranch now, you know, in Skinwalker in Utah, Arizona, and in all of that. So have to be careful on the boundaries of those things. But we wanted to get to a place where there was testimony about somebody seeing a flying disc that was strange to them in their culture. And remember, in those cultures, those were agricultural cultures, so with people who were used to interpreting the weather, looking at the phases of the moon, looking at the rising time of the sun, and all that was important for their, you know, for their agriculture. So they knew their environment very well, better than we do as people living in cities. So we can take that to some extent that, you know, has a scientific value, especially when you can build a model of a number of those across different centuries. But in that book, we were careful to break the book into sections corresponding to different evolution of the culture, explaining first a couple of pages what was happening during that time in terms of new inventions, like when the telescope was invented, when certain things were discovered, and so on. So we were careful to put it in context with every reinterpreting the description by the witness in the context that was appropriate.
- [69:41]
Joe Rogan
Well, it was very thorough and very objective, which is what I really enjoyed about it, where you were very clear what we absolutely knew and very clear what could be nonsense and myth and that one of the things that keeps occurring over and over again is these similar stories. The stories are really similar from the 1700s through the 1800s into the 20th century. And then you again, now it gets more muddy because now you have a bunch of people that realize that there's value in concocting a story and then talking about it. And selling a book. And there's, I think there's people that are grifters and I think they, you know, I probably had a few of them on. They are capitalizing on this desire that people have for stories.
- [70:36]
Jacques Vallée
Well, also now we think that the government has the answer. So people spend their time, you know, writing to different agencies and listening and listening to reports from pilots, which is fine, of course, and people in the military, people in the intelligence community. But those are very valuable because they have, now they have instruments to actually measure what they see on an F18 and so on. And they are covered by radar and by AWACS and everything else. So we can rely on that. So scientists and many people like the numerical aspect of it. I don't do that. I mean, I don't pretend to have access to that. I mean, we had access under Bigelow and under Bass to some of that, you know, including some of the classified things that had happened. But there is a much richer pool of data which is, you know, a friend tells me about the sighting in the country somewhere. I can go there, I can go see the people and I can find out, you know, exactly what happened. And I continue to do that. And that's most of my Data. And it's 10 times bigger than the stuff they talk about from the Pentagon. You know, I mean, it's real data from that. And I don't need to have a clearance to go see the people and sit down. If I'm lucky, they'll invite me for lunch and, you know, I can talk to the kids, I can talk to the wife, I can talk to the, the people who took care of the cattle and they'll tell me. And that's where most of my information is really coming from. And it's not, you know, it's just very much in your face and it's consistent.
- [72:43]
Joe Rogan
How consistent are the shapes of the crafts?
- [72:50]
Jacques Vallée
It's a tough question. You know, many of the descriptions have to do with disks, you know.
- [73:01]
Joe Rogan
And.
- [73:01]
Jacques Vallée
Eggs as well, different sizes. You know, some of them are very large. Some, a number of descriptions have to do with, you know, for a long time with cigar shaped objects, you know, cylindrical and rounded at the end sometimes with what people describe as windows that may just be openings with light, you know, in the side of it doesn't have to be what we think of as a window. And then you have some irregular shapes, you know, just balls of light that physicists interpret as maybe plasma. But plasma doesn't survive in the air, you know, shouldn't Survive in the air more than a minute maybe. But people have, you know, seen some of those things for minutes and longer, you know, long enough to take pictures of it, so on. And it's not necessarily glowing, it's not necessarily luminous the way, you know, plasma would be. So we don't know what they are. And they've been reported all over the world. Again, there are, you know, paintings of that kind of thing from the 18th century or the 17th century. So that I've collected and published. So what are the most compelling categories?
- [74:38]
Joe Rogan
What are the most compelling paintings that we could find right now from like the 1700s or 1800s?
- [74:52]
Jacques Vallée
I think there is a beautiful, beautiful painting of hills and three blue spheres that are not moving, that seem to be suspended in the air. Very distinct blue spheres that were seen and somebody, you know, recorded it and somebody did a painting of the scene. Those are things that people wanted to remember because they knew it was.
- [75:24]
Joe Rogan
And what year was this painting from?
- [75:27]
Jacques Vallée
I don't remember the year. I couldn't tell you. But it's a very old painting, 16th, 17th century.
- [75:33]
Joe Rogan
Do you know the name of it? Like, so Jamie could try to find it online?
- [75:38]
Jacques Vallée
No, I could send you the picture.
- [75:40]
Joe Rogan
Okay. Okay. So there's also a bunch of depictions of egg shaped crafts. Yes, this is very common as well, right?
- [75:52]
Jacques Vallée
Yes.
- [75:53]
Joe Rogan
And the couple that you had in one of your books from. Was it the mining people from Was it California or was it Nevada?
- [76:06]
Jacques Vallée
I wrote a book, the shaping with Paola Harris called Trinity, about an egg shaped object that happened 1945 near White Sands that now we have reinvestigated it. The first book was criticized appropriately by someone who said I hadn't gone to enough of the written records. Well, now I've done that. So we've republished the book. It's called Trinity and it covers three cases. In all three cases, the object is X shaped, the size of a medium sized truck. It would fit in this room. It would be about the size of this room. Then there is a case in Socorro and there is a case in Valensol, Socorot and Valensol. And people have. Concentrate on the first one, the one at. Because it's two years before Roswell and there were witnesses there. You know, there were no witnesses. There were people who came later who found the stuff and they reconstructed the story. And it's a very interesting story. But at Trinity they saw it arrive and they saw it crash. And they were there for 10 days afterwards watching the recovery. And they went inside. One of them went inside and his father went inside also. So we have a very rich description of that. And where is it in the literature? Nowhere. I mean, Paola Harris found this, did research for four years on that and then told me about it. And then we did another four years of research together at the site, and we found a lot of correlations. But there are the Socorro case and the Valensol case.
- [78:12]
Joe Rogan
Could you explain, Tell me, before we move on to those other cases, what correlations did you find?
- [78:17]
Jacques Vallée
Well, in all three cases, it's an egg shaped object. In all three cases, there are traces that could be seen, could be described, could be analyzed. In all three cases, the beings are short. They are, you know, about three feet, three and a half feet. They breathe air. And what kind of extraterrestrial is it that comes here and breathes the air? Okay, we don't go. If we go to the moon, we're not going to breathe the air.
- [78:55]
Joe Rogan
How do we know that it breathes at all? How do we know that these things.
- [78:59]
Jacques Vallée
Breathe at all just because they had no breathing?
- [79:03]
Joe Rogan
How do we even know? Biological.
- [79:05]
Jacques Vallée
They had two eyes, a small nose, small mouth.
- [79:10]
Joe Rogan
But couldn't they possibly be some sort of a creation? Instead of being a biological entity, couldn't they be some sort of artificial life?
- [79:19]
Jacques Vallée
So I've asked Gary Nolan about that. You know, I'm not a biologist, and I think it would be known if somebody had created metahuman.
- [79:38]
Joe Rogan
I don't mean somebody, I mean another life form from somewhere else.
- [79:42]
Jacques Vallée
There were stories of the Russians actually thinking about creating a dwarf human to pilot their ships because they didn't expect to have the energy to have a big rocket. It turned out they found Korolev.
- [80:07]
Joe Rogan
So they were trying to get tiny people to power their ships because they were lighter.
- [80:12]
Jacques Vallée
But the CIA was looking into rumors that the Russians, in the 50s, before Sputnik, that the Russians were trying to create a humanoid that could pilot a spaceship.
- [80:31]
Joe Rogan
Well, I know that the Russians, there was some talk of them trying to create a human ape hybrid. They were trying to do something with chimpanzees and try to create some sort of a human chimpanzee hybrid for war, which is a terrifying thought that they would, first of all, if they were successful, how terrifying would that be? But just that they were interested in doing that, creating a race of chimpanzee human warriors.
- [81:03]
Jacques Vallée
There was no, to my knowledge, there hasn't been any correlation of that. And the, the creatures that are described in Socorro in New Mexico and in Valensol in France. So Those are three cases that I've been very involved in from the beginning, from day one, involve creatures that are about three feet tall, that breathe our air, recognize our signals, communicate with us in funny ways, even mentally. I mean, the witnesses describe getting images in their minds and so on in all three cases. And what's interesting is people can argue about Trinity all they want, like they argue about Roswell, but the case in Socorro and the case in France, in Valensol, were investigated by governments, you know, not by, you know, the local UFO group, although the local UFO group did a good job in all those cases. But they were in Socorro. It was first they, you know, the local police, local policemen saw the craft and the beings and described what happened. He was terrified. But, you know, when the thing took off, he thought it was something to do with some new gadget or some work in the desert. It's an area that's still in the same state today. I've gone back there with Dr. Hynek's son, you know, with Paul Hynek, a few months ago. I've gone several, several times there. And so after the police turned out, the FBI was in town on another case. They had no jurisdiction in New Mexico for that particular case. It wasn't a federal case, but they helped preserve the traces, you know, the FBI way. And the local police was happy to have them there. And then there was the state police came in and did an investigation. And then people from the base came in with experts in explosives, experts in recovery of weapons and rockets and so on, because they felt it might be something that had come from the Trinity Range that was out of its way and had crashed near Socorro, in which case they might have responsibility, including financial responsibility, if something was destroyed or whatever. So this was very serious. I have the whole file, okay? It's a big file. Nobody's looking at it. I mean, the investigation in Washington. Now they are saying, we're going to look at the cases of the last 12 months. Well, what kind of science is that? Can you imagine scientists reading this? And this is the way they are going to solve the UFO problem by looking at vague pictures of lights in the sky for one year. You know, why don't they go back to those records? Those are federal records, okay, the case in Valensol, five agencies of the French government. So this guy was a farmer. He had a field where he was growing plants to make perfume. So this was high level, you know, expensive crop. This wasn't just, you know, alfalfa or something. And he goes there at 5 o'clock in the morning because, you know, he wants to do some, to water the thing and so on before the sun is up. Because it's going to be very. In the south of France, it's going to be very hot. You can't work in the field during the early afternoon. So he wants to be done with that. He sees this contraption, you know, in the middle of the field, crushing, you know, the plants. And so he sneaks in and he's paralyzed. Okay, now there is an egg shaped object just like the one, you know, at Trinity, just like the one in Socorro. It's the size of a mid sized truck. There are two creatures in front of it, human, you know, human looking, two eyes, breathing air. They look at him sort of amused. And one of them has something on his belt. He takes out points pointed at him. And that's when he's paralyzed. Now he's not. You know, as you know, I'm not a doctor, but I've gone to doctors about what kind of paralysis is that, where you can stand up and watch something, you just can't move. They said, well, there is a type of paralysis that will just inhibit the motor, you know, motor nerves. But you'll still be up and aware. You're not going to fall down, you know, in a heap. And from there he sees them going back inside the thing, the thing takes off. It takes off like a shot out of a gun and it vanishes in midair. Okay, now he goes to see the gendarmes. This man is fairly wealthy. He owns quite a bit of, you know, several fields, expensive crops. His wife is the mayor of the town. The gendarmes are going to be very careful with him because he's also from the Resistance. In World War II, when he was young, he joined the Resistance. And the Resistance in that part of France fought in the Alps against the Germans and, you know, they were regarded as heroes of World War II. And so the gendarmes were very careful with him. There are some things he's not going to tell the gendarmes because he thinks, and I went there, he didn't want to talk to anybody from Paris. He didn't want to be on tv. He wanted to concentrate on his experience because he thought there was going to be something else. And he was aware of some of his buddies. This is a part of France where people talk, but they have secrets too. I mean, historically, you know, there are things like that in the U.S. you know, parts where people are not going to talk to Strangers, Right. The only reason I could go there was that I was. I went there with a lady who was from Paris, was from. With the government. She was with the gold government. She had the rank of ambassador, and she had a vacation home there. So we went there for three days, and she knew everybody there. And he told us what he thought might happen again. So he didn't want the gendarmes mixed in with what he was doing.
- [88:36]
Joe Rogan
Why did he think that something was going to happen again?
- [88:41]
Jacques Vallée
They evidently. And, you know, he swore us to secrecy about what it was, but evidently there was communication with the beings when he was there.
- [88:53]
Joe Rogan
And so these beings, just tiny, look like people. Did they have different features than us, or was it just human beings?
- [88:59]
Jacques Vallée
They are just like the ones at Trinity and like the ones at Socorro. So in that book, you have actually two, two and three. You have seven creatures that are humanoid, that breathe our air, that seem to understand us. You know, the visual. You know, there is visual contact. Well, we can have visual contact with animals. I mean, that doesn't mean they are human or metahuman. But there is messages that come through all of that that the witnesses are reluctant to talk about in all three cases. So in Socorro, finally, the Air Force went there. They threw the Air Force out because the Air Force said, well, you know, that's just a gadget from the base. And that was stupid. So they finally sent Dr. Hynek there. And Dr. Hynek asked me to organize the files that were coming. I was at Northwestern at the time, you know, working, working. I had done my PhD already, and I was on the staff of the computing center, and we had a small team trying to help, you know, free. Trying to help Hynek keep the files together. So we were, you know, in communication with him the whole time. And then I put the files together, and I have a file, you know, this is the official file.
- [90:41]
Joe Rogan
So these people were reluctant to talk about what these creatures were communicating with them, but did they talk about it at all?
- [90:48]
Jacques Vallée
It was. It was very personal.
- [90:52]
Joe Rogan
Very personal, yeah.
- [90:54]
Jacques Vallée
There had been a communication that transcended their life. There was something else, something outside. So you could almost call it sort of a religious feeling, but it wasn't about divinity or God specifically, but it was about, you know, the other side of life, some a bigger, meaningful life. That's their interpretation. It may not be. There may be other things that they are trying to communicate, but it was a very profound. Yes.
- [91:43]
Joe Rogan
And all three cases had similar stories in that regard.
- [91:47]
Jacques Vallée
And in all three cases, There are traces that were measured. There were. You know, there is technology of sorts. And in the case of Socorro, people came up with all kinds of ideas that maybe it was a balloon, you know, I mean, a special balloon. There were only 12 of them in the world and so on. Well, in the book, people haven't noticed it, but in the book I was able to solve that problem because I found a transcript of a conversation with a man who was head of a motor pool on the army range at White Sands. And he had given his team some instructions on how to make sure that the motor pool was working really well. Because White Sands is so big, when people went home, they could get lost at White Sands. And then how are you going to find them? I mean, there are tracks, but there is no paved road at the time. How are you going to find them? So you can launch a helicopter the next day looking for a lost car somewhere with a family in it. So he made rules that they had to call periodically to report where they were when they went home, 50 miles away across the desert so they could find them if there was something wrong with the car. He's driving home with his family. This is after the Socorro thing is done. You know, they are all interrogating Lonnie Zamora, the cop who was driving that thing. And he sees a light over the mountains in the south west towards Mexico, but it's still, you know, it's still in New Mexico, but it's in that direction. A light that's not a star. It's really bright. And the light gets brighter and brighter and his car dies. Now he's head of a motor pool, okay, for the base. Everybody reports to him. And they have all the. All the army cars and trucks and everything else, the half tracks. So he looks at that thing, he tries to call his team. The radio doesn't work. Radio should work. Radio doesn't work. And the thing gets very bright. And then it recedes. It goes away the way it apparently came in. We don't know if it came in or if it just got bright. Okay? The car starts, he goes home. And then the next day, he goes to his shop. He gets his staff together. He says, you guys are going to take this car apart. I want to see every screw and every piece of it and every level and everything and the seats and so on. I want to see all of that on the floor. And you're going to test it and you're going to tell me what's changed or if anything, how that car stopped. In the middle of the desert and they couldn't find anything. And that report was an official report, okay, that was never published. And it nails the whole thing, you know, that this was not a balloon. This was not an hallucination. The patrolman wasn't drunk like they accused him of or making up a story and so on. Lanny Zamora, when Dr. Hynek interrogated him, he said he wanted to talk to a priest and confess to a priest before he would talk to Dr. Hynek, okay? That's the kind of man he was. And they essentially destroyed this guy because they thought it was, you know, bad reputation for the town of Socorro. Tourists wouldn't come there because they'd be afraid of strange things, flying. And the Air Force said, well, it's a one witness case. You know, there's this patrolman who saw this. There were 12 witnesses. There was a guy who was driving on the main road, the same road where the patrolman had been driving, who the thing passed right over his car. He thought he was going to be driven off the road by this big oval thing that just went right over the roof of a car into the desert. Well, he called the police and reported it. There is a written report. He signed that report. We know his name. They were.
- [97:06]
Joe Rogan
Without him having any knowledge of what happened?
- [97:08]
Jacques Vallée
That's right. I mean, he saw this some independently, you know, one of your gadgets tried to drive me off the road. There were several people on the road on the other side of this little, you know, desert thing that when it rains, the water rains all over the place, washes everything out, just sand and rocks. But on the other side, there is a main road. Several people on the road saw the thing take off and reported it because it was just so strange. So the Air Force put that aside. They neglected to, you know, this was. And they just kept saying it was a one witness case. It wasn't. Most of those cases where they say it was one witness and you have to look at their. You have to look for the other guys. And again, you know, I brought you something. Can I tell you about it? Sure.
- [98:10]
Joe Rogan
What'd you bring?
- [98:11]
Jacques Vallée
So this is something that the case was so interesting that Dr. Nolan and I and a couple of friends wrote it up and published it in the prime astronautics review in the world. Okay? So after it took a couple of years for them to agree to look at it and so on to look at the analysis, this happened in a suburb of Omaha, Nebraska. But on the Iowa side, there is this town suburb with A park. This is about a week before Christmas in 1977. Okay. People are there having a good time in the park in the evening. It's getting, you know, it's getting dark. And I want to make sure I'm. Yeah. They see something in the sky that looks like one of those boxes there. You know, it looks like a round box with lights around it. And the lights are going around sort of, and it's pretty high, and it's flying over the town. And then a mass of steel, liquid steel, falls in the park. It falls on the levee in the park. There is about half a ton of it, liquid, glowing. It has nothing, no business being there. So you have this mass of metal. Obviously, they call them glowing.
- [100:12]
Joe Rogan
You say it's molten.
- [100:14]
Jacques Vallée
Yes. The weather is freezing. We know the temperature and everything else. It's freezing. The grass is on fire around it. They call the firemen, the firemen call the police. The police gets there, and the firemen get there. They stop the fire. The fire would have died by itself. There's no problem there. They take pictures of the thing glowing. I have the pictures, infrared Polaroid pictures of the thing glowing in the grass, burning, I mean, liquid. And it's going to stay liquid for a couple of hours, and it cools down gradually. And then people take pieces of it as souvenirs. So I have the pieces of it, and there they are. Now there was analysis done by two labs. Obviously, the question is, where did that come from? And there is chromium, titanium, and iron, which you can find in ordinary steel. But this isn't really. The composition isn't exactly what you'd expect industrial steel to be. So one of the chemical analyses is done at the lab for industrial steel. The investigators call the company. The company says, yes, we make steel, so we have furnaces, but we empty the furnaces. This is over a weekend. The factory is closed. There would be nobody there and certainly no liquid steel in our factory on that day.
- [102:17]
Joe Rogan
Half a ton of it. This is a half a ton that they found sitting there.
- [102:23]
Jacques Vallée
So. So then they called the Strategic air command because B52s fly over that town. B52 is a big thing, and the people saw something in the sky. So, you know, maybe it was the Air Force politely laughs at them and says, you know, we carry atom bombs, but we don't carry furnaces with molten steel. Okay, so go look something somewhere else. And I say, good luck, by the way. This is a way you could test it. This is a way. I mean, the Air Force we Think, people, think. Number one, there is nothing in the Blue Book files worth looking at. That's not true. I spent four years, you know, Dr. Hynek had copies of all the files. The files were not classified. There were a few random cases that were classified for other reasons. Not because of the ufo, because of where it was or whatever that I didn't have access to. I was just a graduate student, PhD. I went through. We convinced Dr. Hynek and I convinced the Air Force to do a computer file of everything they had about UFOs, because before then it was just paper files all over the place. And if they were challenged by Carl Sagan or somebody like that at the time, they wouldn't be able to provide good statistics. So they agreed for me to get the files and redo, punch them into punch cards, take it to a computer, redo the statistics, looking at their explanation, and then my explanation for the cases. I did the whole thing. Thousands and thousands of cases. They were right. That majority were explainable. What we were looking for were the ones that were not explainable. This one cannot be explained. And there are enough of those. There are hundreds of those that scientists could have looked at. I went through the Air Force base with my French passport. At the time, I wasn't a citizen. You know, you had to wait five years before you could apply for American citizenship. So I was working. I had a small contract that was completely, you know, unclassified to recalibrate the statistics of the Blue Book 5. So I had access to essentially all the Blue Book files. But I went into the base with a clearance for three days with Dr. Hynek to go to the division that was looking at the UFOs and spend those three days with major Quintanilla and his staff going through the find. So. And they had lots of remains of things and stones and strange metals and so on, which at the end of the project, all that was thrown away. So this is everything that's going on now. This is for you, by the way, your special collection of weird things. This is essentially. It's steel. There we go. So that's the area where the mass of steel glowing.
- [106:06]
Joe Rogan
And so this steel you can make on Earth, this is. This is. It's a composite of different materials.
- [106:15]
Jacques Vallée
It's not exactly the steel that you would use in construction or in. But it is essentially steel. And so I gave my samples to, you know, to Stanford so that we could redo the analysis and not the chemical analysis, but the isotope analysis. So Dr. Nolan and I took it to the lab, Dr. Nolan, had two series of instruments that could do the analysis. We did both, and we confirmed essentially this. So there was no special change in the isotope ratios. If there was, that would indicate that somebody had manipulated the isotopes, which is not a hoax. Then you know for sure it's not a hoax, because that's high caliber scientific laboratory work, and you need special, you know, instrument experts to interpret it.
- [107:23]
Joe Rogan
Right. But that wasn't the case.
- [107:25]
Jacques Vallée
Right.
- [107:26]
Joe Rogan
So the isotopes hadn't been manipulated. Have they found, because I've heard this about Gary Nolan in particular, that they do have samples of things that they can explain.
- [107:37]
Jacques Vallée
So I gave him essentially all my samples, all the ones that I could relate to, reliable cases, because I don't want to give him junk. There's a lot of junk floating around that people think is strange. So, yes, we're going through all those, you know, and the idea is to publish it as we go. You know, to publish everything as we go. There are some that give the indication of being. But, you know, as always in science, we have to be careful. Our colleagues will say, very good, you know, congratulations. You did that with one instrument. Now you should redo it with a different lab, with a different machine and see what they find. Because Dr. Nolan has some of those machines are machines that he's invented at Stanford. Okay. But they are tied to biology. I mean, this is not biology. This is steel, okay. And this is iron or copper or whatever. So we have to redo it with a different. So in this case, we have redone it with a different line of machines. There is a French machine that costs something like $6 million that would fill half of this room that's extremely good for testing for isotopes, but only on four different elements. With the other machine, the biological machine, we get the whole. The whole spectrum, except for some of the extreme elements, like radioactive elements and so on.
- [109:35]
Joe Rogan
So what samples have they found that have been the most compelling?
- [109:40]
Jacques Vallée
We're still working on that, you know, but this paper is important. Even though we didn't find something out of range, but that's, in a way, that's validation, what you have to do when somebody presents you with that kind of sample. Those are the steps. This is where the science is today. This is what the technology can tell you. Okay? So this is sort of a stake in the ground, even though we didn't find E.T. okay, but we didn't find E.T. science.
- [110:18]
Joe Rogan
We found physical evidence of science, but.
- [110:20]
Jacques Vallée
We'Ve got the technology now. We know how to do it. You know, One problem we had was that neither one of us is, you know, an expert in materials. We're not experts in steel. So the people who this was reviewed by, you know, people who were materials experts, and they came back with a whole page of questions. Why didn't you look at this? Why didn't you measure that? So, Dr. Nolan, the team had to redo about a year of work before they would accept the paper. So that's what you have to go through before scientists will look at it. But this one is in the literature, in the scientific literature. It's not in some UFO magazine in New Mexico. And we can. Now we have the methodology, we can apply it to the others. There are some that we've done with one machine where there are indications now at Stanford. Stanford. It's funny because you've had three generations of people at Stanford looking at this before Dr. Nolan, I was there and I was gathering data and I was using the computer to do statistics. And I worked for Professor Sturock, who unfortunately died a few months ago at over 100, but he was still working in astrophysics. And, you know, I was on his astrophysics staff for a couple of years, looking at galaxies, looking at the structure of the sun, and looking at certain types of strange stars that had special emissions and so on. So I was this computer guy. And we also looked at UFO materials, especially a case from Brazil, which he published, and he got financial support to do the isotope analysis. And some of it was arguably different. So we want to redo it, you know, when he donated all his materials to me, you know, when he retired. So I have all that and I passed it to Dr. Nolan. So Stanford now has. Is acquiring a reputation as being a UFO analysis place.
- [113:07]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, for sure.
- [113:08]
Jacques Vallée
But it went from essentially solar physics and very high energy physics, you know, that I was working on with Dr. Sturrock to me with the computing center now with Dr. Nolan in the medical school. So we've had, you know, they are.
- [113:28]
Joe Rogan
Well, I'm glad. In trouble, willing to do that. I had heard that there was some alloy that was very difficult to comprehend, that someone would be able to construct, that it would cost billions of dollars to make this particular type of alloy. That they had discovered something along those lines.
- [113:47]
Jacques Vallée
Well, I've seen those books, I've heard those things on the Internet. The question is, you know, scientists will want to look at this. They want to know, well, how did you do it? How did you prepare the sample? We were given access to a sample that, in fact, is very strange. And it has different colors on fits in the palm of your hand, you know, so it's a significant size. Remember, Dr. Nolan is looking at individual human cells with his device. Okay. So, you know, anything more than 10 grams we don't need. I mean, we can work with very little material, although of course we want to do different things with different parts of it. But this thing had some very interesting in crosses of a red deposit. And all the people who had looked at it, including some official labs, and some signed disclaimer saying they would not scrape off the interesting deposits that were on it. Well, all of them did. You know, I mean, after signing the thing, by the time it came, it came to me, most of the interesting red stuff had been scraped off. So I don't know what they did and I don't know what machine they used. And they didn't publish a paper. It took us four years to publish this paper. The paper came from Stanford with PhDs, four PhDs writing it. So that's. The bar is pretty high if you're going to actually publish this in an international review.
- [115:49]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, and with an interesting title too.
- [115:51]
Jacques Vallée
So we'll do others. You know, that's the plan if people.
- [115:54]
Joe Rogan
Want to find this. It says improve instrumental techniques, including isotope analysis, applicable to the characterization of unusual materials with potential relevance to aerospace forensics.
- [116:08]
Jacques Vallée
Yeah, he doesn't talk about UFOs.
- [116:10]
Joe Rogan
That's a very tricky way. Relevance to aerospace forensics.
- [116:17]
Jacques Vallée
People read between the lines.
- [116:18]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, that's. What do you mean, aerospace? Who's. Aerospace stuff? So this is the question. If these encounters happened, if this egg shaped craft was real, and if these small people, like things that breathe air, did communicate with people, where are they from? Is this something that has always been here? Is this something that visits here? Is it something that is here?
- [116:46]
Jacques Vallée
So in the bass project of Mr. Bigelow that was funded by the Defense Intelligence Agency, we had a template of things that the Pentagon wanted to have. And it said, you know, trajectory, composition, luminosity, radiation and so on. Well, yeah, those are the things that you'd need if you were looking at a Russian aircraft, you know, or you were looking at, you know, the Nimitz thing, whatever it was. But, you know, is that really relevant? I mean, in science you don't start from the conclusions. You're going to look at this. This is not something you've seen before, and you go on from there, you know, in the Nimitz case, we've all seen those photographs and they are. I've stopped counting how many papers there are from The New York Times on down with the picture of the photograph that the F18 was taking, the pilot took from the thing. Well, nobody mentions that. This isn't a photograph. People think it's a photograph. So in the file, there is a memo from the folks at Raytheon. Raytheon makes the device, which is a big, you know, a big thing that you hang under the wing of an F18 that's going to take these images. It's an image. It's not a photograph. It's looking into the infrared. It's not looking at the details. You know, there is a number painted on the thing. It's. I mean, you see it. It's looking at the heat. So when this was published by the New York Times, there was a very interesting memo with a little touch of humor from Raytheon to the Navy saying, you know, those things you've published, and, you know, it was taken with one of the devices which we sold you to put under the wing of your aircraft. It's not a camera. It's not a photographic camera. You gave us specifications for what you wanted us to build, and that's what we gave you. You wanted something that could measure the temperature of the exhaust of an enemy aircraft that you're going to shoot down. The F18 goes behind that Russian thing, a MiG or whatever, and the camera is painting the exhaust from the Russian guy so that you can distinguish between, you know, American Airlines 723 and a MiG.
- [119:58]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [119:58]
Jacques Vallée
Okay. That's going to help you discriminate what kind of enemy you've got. You know, is it friend or foe first? If it's friend, you peel off, and that's fine. If it's an enemy, you're going to engage the guy. Okay, that's what we gave you. You didn't tell us you wanted a device to track flying saucers. Because we don't know what flying saucers are. If you do, you know, we'll build one. And that memo is just so funny. You know, it's an official. You know, I make it a little bit funnier than it was, but it's an official memoir, and it's very straightforward.
- [120:42]
Joe Rogan
Jamie, see if you could find a good photograph. Excuse me. An image of the infrared image that was taken by those F18s.
- [120:52]
Jacques Vallée
You have an image of a heat source.
- [120:54]
Joe Rogan
Yes, of that Tic Tac. And then they also got the video representation, the video of the thing taken off at some extreme rate of speed. That's it right there. So that's the image, right?
- [121:12]
Jacques Vallée
Yeah. Well, the radar said.
- [121:17]
Joe Rogan
That's the one.
- [121:19]
Jacques Vallée
The radar said that it took off and popped up somewhere else. And so we accept that at face value because it's in the New York Times. And that may be true. In my work in venture capital, I've looked at all kinds of technology that's around. So I go to technology meetings. Those are open, they are not secret or anything. And people talk about their gadget or their device. They are looking for money to make in larger quantity. So I found myself in a conversation with a guy from one of the aircraft companies in Southern California. And I asked him, you know, there is a device that has a funny name like Dispro or something like that, and it measures the. It acquires radar signals. I think it's a dspr, you know, for radar. And that gadget, I had never heard of it. And it's actually not classified now. It was developed initially so that you could analyze radar data that was coming to you. If somebody was painting your aircraft on the radar, you could detect the characteristics of a radar pulse. Why would you want to do that? Well, you want to do that because I said, well, what does it look like? You know, is it classified? He said, no, it's not classified. You know, many airplanes, civilian airplanes, can carry it. You put it in the nose of your Piper Cub or whatever and you fly around Los Angeles and it will acquire the characteristics of all the radars in the Los Angeles area digitally. It's a digital thing. It's a computer essentially that requires radar data and then it feeds back radar characteristics of any aircraft you want somewhere else. So if you want your Papa cup to look like a B52 20 miles away, you turn on, I'm making it simple. But you program the thing and you can redirect the defense, the air defense, for example, to another place.
- [124:28]
Joe Rogan
So you can send a signal to another place that makes it look like there's a B52 there.
- [124:33]
Jacques Vallée
Yes. Or make it look like you've disappeared in mid air and reappeared somewhere else. Digitally, it's a digital radar feedback device that once you know the characteristics of the radars that are painting you, you can, I mean, obviously, suppose you want to travel to Moscow over the Iron Curtain without being shot down by the Soviet Air Force, you'd want to redirect all the radars. I mean, you're on 20 radars, right?
- [125:14]
Joe Rogan
One of the things that they said about the Tic Tac was that when they encountered it, it was somehow another blocking their detection signals.
- [125:25]
Jacques Vallée
Well, you know, I don't know that this dirt from. I don't know how far it's gotten in the last 30 years. The guy I was talking to was telling me about technology of 30 years ago. Wow, that blew my mind. I never didn't know you could do that.
- [125:44]
Joe Rogan
Right. I didn't know until just now you could just paint.
- [125:48]
Jacques Vallée
So that's. I'm not sure where the technology is and who is cleared for that. You know, pilots are cleared for certain things obviously for all their equipment on board they are not necessarily cleared for. So you have to ask, in the case of the Nimitz, what clearances did these pilots we see on tv, what clearances did they have? No, they have the electronic countermeasure clearance. They don't necessarily have it. I mean some of them didn't have the camera. Some of those who are on TV today talking about these images, the image didn't come from them, it came from one of their buddies, you know, came afterwards.
- [126:39]
Joe Rogan
There's also the question of where they came from. I've always questioned where they take place because they take place in the same areas where the United States always runs military training exercises. They take place off of San Diego, off of the East Coast. All these areas where we know that they run exercises all the time. Restricted airspace. If you were going to test equipment.
- [127:04]
Jacques Vallée
I think this was in international waters. Yes.
- [127:07]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, it was, but it was still off the coast of San Diego where they do these things, which is why the fighter pilots were there.
- [127:13]
Jacques Vallée
That's not the first trip. I mean the Russians could fly there, right?
- [127:16]
Joe Rogan
Not that area. But isn't the area off the east coast where some of those things restricted?
- [127:20]
Jacques Vallée
I. I don't know. Okay, they want around Long Island. Long island is, is restricted.
- [127:27]
Joe Rogan
Says China's electronic war gadget turns small drones into flying stadium on radar. So this is an article from January of this year. And then I'll show you something else I found from here. Wow. So they can make it look like a flying stage size of an iPad can make it look like as big as a sports stadium. Whoa, look at this. The effect similar to a giant flying saucer suddenly materializing in midair would be reminiscent of a scene from a science fiction film. But is achievable according to peer reviewed paper published on January 8th. Whoa. Also so then the month before that, here's their new stealth fighter that's painted with the stuff he just said that scatters the frequencies.
- [128:03]
Jacques Vallée
You know, this isn't my field. I, this is just something I stumbled.
- [128:08]
Joe Rogan
Across typing in the words he was saying, yeah, just pretty cool. So they go, they're testing this, too. What I was getting at was if you're the United States government, if you're the military and you have this kind of equipment and you want to test it, what better way than to test it on people that don't know you're testing it on them? Send your fighter jets out there, have them encounter these things, run your. Whatever experiment you're doing with making something appear and reappear and take off and come in, give them these signals, given these disruptive, deceptive signals, and see whether or not they. The problem is they had visual confirmation of these things. That's the real problem. The problem is they actually saw these things. Like the, the Tic Tac was they visually saw four people. Right.
- [128:59]
Jacques Vallée
I have a colleague in Silicon Valley who's been distinguished army career, and he told me that there were in fact, tests of especially nuclear facilities, not necessarily the military, but mostly the military facilities to test the ability to penetrate the perimeter. So those flights are not cleared with the people who manage the plant. So it's either a nuclear plant that makes fuel for bombs or it's a base where nuclear weapons are stored. And there are guys around the perimeter with machine guns and they are going to, you know, sound an alert if they see something coming over the fence. Well, suppose you come over the fence looking like a flying saucer, are they going to start shooting or not? Okay. So they, you know, he told me that he had actually flown some of those missions. And I know another member of the Bass team who confirmed that told me he had been on some of those missions. They make their plane look like. They put lights around it. And so it can look like a flying saucer, essentially, or look like what, a ufo? What would be a UFO to the guard?
- [130:43]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [130:44]
Jacques Vallée
So that the guard is. They want to see if they can penetrate. If you can disguise yourself to the extent that psychologically you can inhibit the reaction of the guards and you can fly over the fence. Because if you can fly over the fence, you're in.
- [131:01]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [131:02]
Jacques Vallée
You know, you can do a lot of damage.
- [131:04]
Joe Rogan
Wow.
- [131:05]
Jacques Vallée
So.
- [131:05]
Joe Rogan
So pretend you're a ufo.
- [131:08]
Jacques Vallée
So those. But I don't think they do hundreds of those. I think they probably do it very carefully at a couple of places.
- [131:20]
Joe Rogan
But it's interesting that they have that ability. That's fascinating. That throws a lot of this stuff into question, like what are we actually seeing? But it doesn't explain all these things. And the problem that I always have is the, the just the abundance of encounters and how similar a lot of them are. And then what it must feel like. I've never had an experience, but what it must feel like to have that experience that you probably would be very. I wouldn't be reluctant because I'm a known person to talk about silly things, but if you're not. If you're like a serious person, you have some sort of an encounter, I would imagine there's a lot of pressure on you to not tell people. If you're a lawyer or a doctor or you're any sort of, like, respectable person that's a serious individual in whatever you're doing for a career. You don't want people to associate you with nonsense or think that, oh, maybe Mike is losing his mind.
- [132:21]
Jacques Vallée
You can't, because you have people relying on your ability to.
- [132:25]
Joe Rogan
So maybe you tell your friends, maybe tell your mother, maybe tell your. Your wife, but you probably don't tell the press. If you're. If you're a scientist, I would imagine you would have to have, like, significant evidence for you to stick your neck out, or you're a person like yourself that's been very brave for all these years because you were talking about this stuff in the 1960s, which is pretty crazy.
- [132:47]
Jacques Vallée
Well, you know, I had seen flying saucer when I was 15.
- [132:55]
Joe Rogan
Can you describe it?
- [132:57]
Jacques Vallée
I was in. I grew up in a town that's about 45 minutes out of Paris on the road to Normandy. And my father was a judge in that town for a while. And. Beautiful afternoon in the summer. I don't know the exact date. It would have been late June or July 55, 1955. So I was about 15, 16. I was still in school. And then the following year I was going to go to the university and my mother called me. I was working with my father, who was relaxing, doing some furniture, and I was helping him. And I heard my mother call from the yard and went down and saw an object that was absolutely a saucer. It looked like it was over the steeple of the cathedral there. And we were about half a kilometer away from it. And it was just suspended. It was silver, and there was a clear dome on top of it. And we both saw that it was very clear. And then the next day I asked a friend of mine from school who was, you know, we were the two good students in physics and so on. And I told him I had seen that. And he said he had looked at it with binoculars, he had seen it too, and he had looked at it with binoculars. And I got him to draw it. And he drew exactly what I had seen. Essentially a lens shaped thing with a dome on the clear dome on top.
- [135:02]
Joe Rogan
How long did you see it for?
- [135:05]
Jacques Vallée
I saw it for less than a minute. I think I went inside. I don't remember what I did. Logically, I probably went inside to get my father so that he could see it.
- [135:21]
Joe Rogan
And then when he came out, it was gone.
- [135:25]
Jacques Vallée
Well, he didn't even come out. He said it was probably one of the new. The new planes that were flying around because this was a time when the meteors and you know, the early jets were being tried and they were training pilots with them and so on, both for civil aviation and for the air force in France. So he said, well, let's wait, you know, maybe this will be disclosed at some point. So I didn't say anything about it. Also, you know, the son of a judge, family of a judge isn't supposed to see strange things in the air over the town.
- [136:09]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [136:09]
Jacques Vallée
So it was sensitive.
- [136:13]
Joe Rogan
What year was this when you were 15? How old do you know?
- [136:17]
Jacques Vallée
It was 1955.
- [136:19]
Joe Rogan
1955.
- [136:20]
Jacques Vallée
So back I was 15, 16.
- [136:23]
Joe Rogan
Okay. So we could also apply that. Like if it was a jet, it would probably be very loud.
- [136:29]
Jacques Vallée
Well, and also it wouldn't just stand there.
- [136:31]
Joe Rogan
Right. It wouldn't be able to just sit there was this thing quiet after that.
- [136:36]
Jacques Vallée
You know, I understood that it was after that I worked at Paris Observatory after I had my degree in astronomy. Tracking satellites. We tracked the very early satellites and we were government office. So people were writing to us with what they had seen. And most of it we could explain. For one thing, they were seeing echo and they were seeing some of the Russian rockets. So we would write back. I mean, we had to write back to French citizen. I had a card with a French flag on it. And we were serving the population. So we would explain those things pretty much the way they do now. You've seen the moon rising through the fog or you've seen satellite so much alpha 23. But then there were cases where, just like that, where they saw something we could not explain. But then we would tell them, but we wouldn't publish it. We wouldn't send it anywhere. For one thing, it wasn't our job. Our job was tracking satellites.
- [137:59]
Joe Rogan
Right. But that one experience that you had when you were 15 is what ignited your interest in this for so many years. Yeah, well, if you hadn't been doing. I mean, the thing that's very important about people like yourself is that you're so careful in how you document these things and the conclusions that you draw. Because I think this field of UFO study is filled with so many people that claim to have answers, claim to know things. And this is going to happen. And this is coming. And this is. This is disclosures imminent and this. And that's not. It never comes true. It's always. You're just left waiting for some new evidence that supposedly they have. And this is the more frustrating aspects of it. Like when talking to Christopher Mellon, he's telling me there's high resolution photographs and video and how about showing me, show me some stuff, show me something. Because as a person that I wasn't when I was 15, I didn't say anything. So I don't have that experience that you have. I just have this fascination with it, but also tempered by a little bit of cynicism because there's so much malarkey that's attached to this subject.
- [139:11]
Jacques Vallée
Well, and some of it is, you know, some of it is legitimate.
- [139:19]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [139:20]
Jacques Vallée
And I think ufologists in general, you know, they want disclosure, disclosure, disclosure. But we don't know. I'm very respectful of. When I had clearances, I was just very respectful of those clearances because there are people who know what's on the other side of that. There was one case in the Air Force files that it was classified. I mean, it was marked in the index with a star. And I'm punching the card and I put an asterisk there. And I had to ask Dr. Hynek, you know, what happened? Can you tell me what happened there? And he said, yeah, there was enough time that I can tell you. This came from a woman in Alaska called the Air Force because she saw what she thought was a flying saucer, certainly something that should not have been there. It was dark on the ground, but the sky was still light. And there was definitely a light that looked like it was under power that was flying west. Now, west of Alaska, you know, there's a Corail Peninsula and there's a Soviet Union. So she thought it was a ufo. So it was reported as a ufo, but it was, it was classified. And it was called unidentified. Well, you know, that was an inside joke. It was a U2, but this was at sunset and the U2 was illuminated by the sun, which, I mean, U2 is painted in such a way that it shouldn't be visible from, but there are some, you know, conditions where you're going to see it. And so it was classified. And if you had the clearance, you would read that it was unidentified. It would be listed in the statistics as unidentified, but it was actually a Utah. Exactly what it was from the beginning.
- [141:53]
Joe Rogan
Interesting. So some things are listed as unidentified because it's so classified. Yeah, that makes sense.
- [142:00]
Jacques Vallée
I have no problem with that. But, you know, tell me, if you ask me to write a computer program about it, tell me if it's worth my time or not.
- [142:12]
Joe Rogan
What was your take on the Ryan Graves stuff? Like Ryan Graves and the fighter pilots that started seeing these squares within a.
- [142:22]
Jacques Vallée
Sphere, to me, that's still a question. And the people I talk to, still wondering, you know, what is that? There are strange physical systems that are floating around to gather faint signals, and they have very strange shapes. Okay, so it could be those are balloons within balloons with little things attached to them going back to the days of 1947. Looking for atomic explosions. Russian. That's the way the Russian tests, atomic tests were detected. First was with balloons that had large antennas. You know, that were.
- [143:28]
Joe Rogan
The thing about the Ryan Graves stuff, though, is the physical characteristics, like in the way it moves. These things were able to stay stationary and 100 plus knot winds.
- [143:38]
Jacques Vallée
I don't. I don't know.
- [143:41]
Joe Rogan
You don't know? Yeah.
- [143:42]
Jacques Vallée
I have not researched it, and I wouldn't be the guy to research it.
- [143:46]
Joe Rogan
If we are being visited, how many different civilizations do you think are visiting us? Because if there's all these different characteristics that these beings have, if some of them look like tall, albino, almost like human beings with large eyes, some of them look like the grays, some of them look like dwarfs.
- [144:12]
Jacques Vallée
Yes. And that's an embarrassment of riches in a way.
- [144:16]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [144:21]
Jacques Vallée
Of course, that opens the question, you know, is it a simulation? And Rizwan Work has published a couple of books about that. He's a friend of ours and Dr. Nolan, and we've had many conversations about that. You know, we could be living in a simulation of sorts where the people running the simulation might send whatever they want. I mean, it would be like a video game. So all of a sudden you've got a new. But that's not completely. You can only go so far. In fact, first reaction is, well, you know, but look at the detail. We can't reproduce a detail on that scale. That's true, but wait 10 years and we'll be able to do it with quantum computing and all that. So that's not a good argument. It's an okay argument now, but it doesn't stand the test. The other argument is who would be doing it and why. That's true that there are some strange Things, I mean, the fact that the moon is exactly the size to hide the sun. It's exactly, perfectly 30 minutes of arc, like the sun. So it gives us total eclipses and it gives us a measuring tool. The Greeks knew roughly how far the sun was with respect to the moon. They knew the, the ratio of the distances. They didn't get the exact distance, but they already knew that because they had done the math, you know, the geometry. So that's pretty strange, you know, I.
- [146:16]
Joe Rogan
Mean, and it also protects our environment.
- [146:18]
Jacques Vallée
There are lots of things on Earth that, you know, seem to be accidental, that are just right for us to exist.
- [146:26]
Joe Rogan
Yeah.
- [146:27]
Jacques Vallée
So. But I'm not completely happy with that explanation, nor am I. I'm not happy.
- [146:39]
Joe Rogan
With it, but it's very compelling. What's fascinating to me is that it is inevitable that if technology advances the way it is currently, within maybe even our lifetime, or within another lifetime, another hundred years, we will most certainly have an artificial reality that you cannot discern, indiscernible between that and the reality we currently experience. So that's inevitable. You would kind of assume that perhaps it's already taken place, and if it had already taken place, it would probably be very similar to what we're experiencing. Whereas enough of it seems fake and enough of it seems scripted. Enough of it seems very coincidental how things line up, that it almost does seem like a simulation sometimes.
- [147:31]
Jacques Vallée
Well, but there are also things that are strange but that we could research, that we are doing a very bad job of researching. I got a phone call a couple of years ago from a woman who had been a student at a school, a high level preparatory school on the east coast. And I had published a book in the 80s, early 80s, about UFOs. And she was head of a lecture bureau for the kids. And she thought it would be fun to bring me there to talk about frank sauce, because it would excite the students and so on. So I went there and I gave a lecture at the level of, you know, but those were very bright students, you know, it was sort of an elite girls school. And then, you know, she drove me back to the airport and I went home. Never heard from her again. 35 years pass and she calls me and she says, you may not remember me, but, you know, I was the one who brought you to give a lecture at the school. Do you ever come to Washington? And I said, I do remember you, and I go to Washington a couple of times a year. And she says, well, I'd like to tell you about an experience I had and next time you come to Washington, ring me up. And when you're done with your meetings, you know, I'll pick you up and I'll drive you to Dallas Airport. And so I do that. I call her. She picks me up in a very nice Mercedes, and she says, I've never forgotten your lecture. I saw something here on the way to the airport where we're passing now that I'd like to describe to you because it reminded me of your lecture. And I had never heard that anywhere else. You know, there are trees along the freeway on both sides. Beautiful. The freeway was dark and the sky was still blue. She said, I saw an elongated object, which was like, to me twice, seven, 47, with what people would probably think of as portholes or windows. They were just lights along the thing. The thing was elongated and it was moving slowly, minding its own business. It must be on 10 radars, including the airport. And it was moving over. And then the sky was perfectly clear. No clouds, no fog. It blended with the sky. I could just see the outline. Still, it didn't speed up. I could see the lights, and I could see the lights fading, and then there was nothing there. And I remember in your lecture in the 80s, you talked about things that could be going into another dimension. Okay, But I thought that was interesting, and the kids thought it was interesting idea. And, yeah, in science, you know, people, you talk about different dimensions and physics and so on, but I had never seen it mentioned anywhere else. And there it was, you know, this thing faded from our universe, and I have no idea where it went, but it didn't speed up. So now they have radar case. Thank you very much. Can I publish that? It said no way. I'm the CEO of an international commercial company. We work in several countries, and I can't have my name associated with it. Now, I've had probably a dozen cases like that with people from Silicon Valley. People, you know, they report on Wall street about how their company is doing. They don't want a reporter saying, are you the same guy who sees flying saucers? You're the CEO of this such and such microchip company in San Jose, you know, so, you know, they don't report it, but they want me or some of my colleagues to know about it because they know it could contribute to the research we're doing.
- [152:42]
Joe Rogan
Right?
- [152:42]
Jacques Vallée
And, you know, Dr. Nolan has had that. That experience as well as, you know, but it's not going to the Air Force, it's not going to the newspapers. It's not going to The New York Times. Now, if those things can, you know, just jump out of our universe and go somewhere else, that rewrites the whole thing. You know, we're not talking about propulsion the way we think about propulsion. We're not talking about, you know, environmental, environment. We're not talking the passage of time, you know, in the same way that, you know, I would experience with my watch and so on. We're talking about something. The rules are different, and we need to go up and start thinking along those rules or at least the possibility of those rules. It doesn't prove that there is another universe five minutes ahead of us, but there could be. And then all the papers that they published saying there couldn't be flying saucers because there isn't life, you know, closer than, you know, 2,000 light years from us. And they would. It would take. I thought it was speed of light. It would take 2000 years to come here. Well, there could be another universe five minutes ahead of us. It would take them five minutes to get here. Okay, so that would explain why we have visitations throughout history and they look the same throughout history because, you know, our technology. I mean, this technology of this microphone didn't exist 20 years ago.
- [154:29]
Joe Rogan
Right.
- [154:30]
Jacques Vallée
You know, it's a new microphone, and there were no microphones, you know, 200 years ago. There were no microphones at all. So how come those things look the same? How can we compare them to something somebody saw in the 18th century?
- [154:48]
Joe Rogan
Right, right.
- [154:49]
Jacques Vallée
That shouldn't happen, you know, unless your technology is stuck.
- [154:54]
Joe Rogan
Right, right, right.
- [154:56]
Jacques Vallée
Yeah.
- [154:57]
Joe Rogan
That is a fascinating aspect of it. Right. You would expect that if you thought about how fast our technology evolves. Technology from 1947 from some other planet would be exponentially more advanced than what we experienced in 47, just based on how our technology evolves.
- [155:16]
Jacques Vallée
And you have to think. I mean, we think about an aircraft in ways completely different. I mean, there are things that, yes, it came from the Wright brothers and so on, and they were speculation before on how you could fly, but what an aircraft does today is radically different. The whole physics is different.
- [155:39]
Joe Rogan
And we're only talking about a hundred and some years ago, which is pretty crazy. You go from this thing that Wilbur and. Or write, you know, kind of like get it to take some air for a little bit, to the Chinese jet which is disguising itself from radar and travels at insane speeds. And then the possibility of other propulsion systems that have been kept under wraps.
- [156:03]
Jacques Vallée
To the Harrier that stays.
- [156:05]
Joe Rogan
Yes. And then lands like that. Yeah. No, the. Just the technology that we know, that we're aware of over the last 200 years is pretty extraordinary. And if you imagine something from somewhere that's had thousands of years to evolve past us.
- [156:23]
Jacques Vallée
There are a couple of things I wanted to bring up that are in the book. Well, one is in the book, the other one isn't. What's in the book is I've tried to continue. The parapsychology experiments were done at SRI and now at lots of other places. And I got advice from people who said if you put yourself in some types of conditions, you could try to manifest another form of intelligence or another form of essentially an apparition. It's not necessarily related to UFOs, but if you can do that, that would teach you what you could do also with some of the encounters that people describe that the witnesses tell me. So if I'm a good scientist, I should put myself in their place first and experience it myself. So then a couple of sort of mental experiments like that in my home. I was alone at the time in my home, and nothing happened. And then nothing like what I expected happened. And then I was asleep one night, and all of a sudden I'm propelled outside of my body into another room, and there is an entity there. Okay, A massive sort of rectangular mass, you know, entity, clearly, you know, something that knows where it is and is thinking. I'm terrified. Not terrified so much of the entity. It's like a sort of black, you know, rectangle. But I'm terrified of being outside my body. I know people do experiments with that, and there are people who can do it almost at will. I've never tried to do that, I think, because I've heard, you know, cautions that it's very dangerous because what if you don't find your way back? So I'm terrified. I find myself back in my body. I get, you know, I sit up completely terrified, crying, screaming, which is not usual with me because it was just, you know, it really was horrible. Then I rationalize it, you know, the experience wasn't supposed to happen outside of my body. When people describe entities like Whitley Straber describes it and so on, there is a very strong psychic impact. But to me, that was very shocking. It hasn't happened before and hasn't happened since. I'm not trying to make it happen, but I wanted to flag it and to get advice mostly from other people.
- [159:56]
Joe Rogan
Did you feel compelled to try it again?
- [160:01]
Jacques Vallée
I would try it again.
- [160:02]
Joe Rogan
But you have not yet.
- [160:04]
Jacques Vallée
No.
- [160:04]
Joe Rogan
No. I could understand. It was that terrifying if you woke up screaming.
- [160:08]
Jacques Vallée
I didn't get counsel from, you know, my peers.
- [160:12]
Joe Rogan
And that's like similar to the monolith in 2001, right? Yeah.
- [160:18]
Jacques Vallée
Well, you know, there is a scientist I know well in Silicon Valley who also started a number of companies that are publicly traded now who invented the integrated circuit. His name is Federico Fagin. He's a physicist from Italy with a PhD from Italy. He came to Silicon Valley in the very early days of the transistor, worked with the initial teams in those places. And then there was a problem of how can you pack those things together in smaller and smaller places. And he's recognized as the father or one of the two or three people who invented the integrated circuit. So for a long time he was celebrated in that capacity. What he didn't say is that he had seen the design outside of his body one night and that he had had multiple experiences outside of his body. Now this is someone, you know, one of the fathers of Silicon Valley. I mean, I recognize him as one of my mentors, you know, in venture capital, in high technology investment. But now he started to, I mean, he's made enough money that he doesn't care anymore. And he's sort of semi retiring. He doesn't like what's going on right now and he's probably going to go back to Europe. But there are a number of people like that whose names are in the Wall Street Journal or in the New York Times who would something. But you find out that they also had and they experimented with it. In his case, he experimented systematically with the ability to go out of his body.
- [162:41]
Joe Rogan
And acquire this information from some other source or a vision.
- [162:47]
Jacques Vallée
There isn't much. There are a couple of books that mention steps you can take, but it seems to be pretty much up to the individual. In my case, I certainly wasn't trying to do that. I was precipitated instantly to the place where this being was. There were also a couple of things that I never wrote about. Not that I wanted to hide them or was afraid of them, but I wanted to understand the context of it before I did and I talk about it in this book. In the late 70s, my wife, my first wife Janine was a psychologist. We bought a place in the country in Northern California, place in the Redwood Forest, because I wanted to re experience the pleasure of doing astronomy as an amateur. You know, a small telescope and so on, but I don't care. I want to look at the moon, I want to look at planets, I want to look at Magellanic Clouds or whatever. And the. So we built this. We had. There was a house there, but I built an observatory in the middle of the forest. Our closest neighbor. This is redwood forest, you know, and uncluttered and, you know, unspoiled. Pretty much inaccessible. You know, if you didn't own the land, you know, you couldn't go cut the trees. So those were. There were some old redwoods there and some. And the closest Neighbor was about 3/4 miles away. 3/4 of a mile away. And I felt this is going to be like a discontinuity in the forest and maybe it will attract whatever is out there and Maybe we'll see UFOs. We never did. We owned the place for 18 years. Would go there with our kids and it was wonderful. But we went there not every weekend, but pretty much as much as we could. And then our kids grew up and moved away. We moved back to the city. We sold the place the last night, of course, we had cleaned the place. We were selling it to friends of ours. Our neighbors had a winery. They wanted to expand the land. We had some flat land they wanted to use for the wine and they wanted the house. And so the last night, everything has been moved out. My wife is still there because we had a car that was going to be taken back to the city. And she had her car and she was ready to go. Middle of the night. There's a light that's filling the house by then. There are no curtains, nothing filling the house. Blue, sort of UV white, blue ultraviolet light. She goes outside and the light is making everything clear. The forest, everything else. And it's moving. It doesn't have a specific shape, you know, it's like a mass of light with light all around it. It's going down the driveway, which is a dirt. Dirt road to the main road to the small road. And it's just moving along politely in front of the ranch and down to the street. It has no business being there. No sound. It's not a car. It's not a car on fire. The light again, everything is. All the details are there. You can see the grass. You can see the leaves on the trees. And why that maybe you called for.
- [167:32]
Joe Rogan
It and it took a long time to get there.
- [167:35]
Jacques Vallée
Well, yeah, all they just wanted to say goodbye.
- [167:39]
Joe Rogan
Yeah, maybe. Maybe they were there the whole time and they just didn't want to show themselves. Let's put on a show for Jacques.
- [167:45]
Jacques Vallée
There was one time we used to sleep in the observatory. There was a small bedroom there with old books that I had collected. And she Woke up and she saw a light that was like what people describe, small light. She didn't see where it came from or where it went, that it was moving along. There was two of them and then it vanished. She woke me up, but I had not seen it. It was gone by the time I woke up.
- [168:19]
Joe Rogan
I talked to a man when I went to visit Skinwalker Ranch. A few people wanted to talk to us, but then once we brought the cameras out, only one guy wanted to talk to us. And he was very rational, very normal guy who lived in a modest home. And he told the story about this ball of light that entered through his home. And it seemed to be somehow or another aware that he was there. He felt like it was, if not a living thing, controlled by something that was alive. And then it went through the walls and disappeared again. He said it was in his home for a few minutes. It's moving around.
- [169:02]
Jacques Vallée
Well, as you know, Mr. Bigelow has done experiments of his own with lights and with things like that, putting interesting objects in certain places that are enclosed and seeing if something is going to look around or move them and so on. So very, very interesting.
- [169:29]
Joe Rogan
Well, it's such a fascinating subject. And like I said, I really appreciate all your years of research and the way you're so measured and so objective in your analysis. It really helps people like myself get at least some sort of an understanding of what's going on.
- [169:45]
Jacques Vallée
Well, what's important is to have guidelines, you know, for research.
- [169:51]
Joe Rogan
Yes.
- [169:52]
Jacques Vallée
I look to some of the people you have here, you know, who've done some other exploring, and I try to learn from them and sort of refine my. My own criteria.
- [170:05]
Joe Rogan
Yeah. Well, thank you very much. And your book again, the one that's available now, this is Forbidden Science 6. This is the sixth of these books.
- [170:17]
Jacques Vallée
Scattered Castles is a. It's not classified, but it comes from the classified world. It's a repository of classified projects. So if you're cleared at a certain level, you want to know what else is there that you would have access to or where certain things are being sent to you and you're authorized to. You could look up the names of those projects. It wouldn't tell you what the project does unless you're cleared for it, but it would tell you that there is a project. And so those names of secret projects are picked by a computer. They are random. And I thought this was funny. You know, Scattered Castles is sort of like, you know, all these files about strange UFOs and strange creatures.
- [171:18]
Joe Rogan
Well, I can't wait to read it. Thank you so much. Thank you for everything. It was great having dinner with you and Hal put off and everybody else last night as well. So I really appreciate you very much. Thank you.
- [171:30]
Jacques Vallée
Bye, everybody.