Podcast Summary: The Joe Rogan Experience #2295 - Scott Payne
Host: Joe Rogan
Guest: Scott Payne
Release Date: March 27, 2025
Introduction to Scott Payne
In episode #2295 of The Joe Rogan Experience, Joe Rogan welcomes Scott Payne, a former FBI undercover agent with an extensive 25-year career infiltrating some of America’s most notorious criminal organizations. Scott delves deep into his life’s extraordinary journey, sharing firsthand accounts of his undercover operations, the psychological toll of his work, and the personal sacrifices he made along the way.
Early Career and Becoming an Undercover Agent
Scott Payne begins by recounting his early life in South Carolina, highlighting his athletic pursuits and his transformative college experience. Initially uncertain about his career path, Scott discovered his passion for criminal justice during a college elective, which led him to pursue a degree in criminal justice with a minor in psychology.
Notable Quote:
"I became a cop because when I was in college, I took a course. [...] I ended up coming out with a major in criminal justice and a minor in psychology."
[00:40]
Scott's interest in undercover work was sparked by his fascination with undercover movies and mentorship from a seasoned sheriff's office mentor, who had previously infiltrated biker gangs.
Transition to FBI and Advanced Undercover Work
After three years of uniform patrol, Scott advanced to narcotics investigator, where he conducted his first drug buy—an experience fraught with anxiety and awkward attempts at blending into the criminal environment.
Notable Quote:
"I was scared because I was out of my comfort zone, but I was also scared to make a fool of myself in front of the narcotics guys and gals that were training me."
[06:38]
Scott's exceptional performance in undercover operations led to his recruitment by the FBI. He underwent rigorous training at the FBI Academy, where he honed his tradecraft skills amidst intense sleep deprivation and high-pressure scenarios designed to test his resilience and adaptability.
Notable Quote:
"Our certification school is very, very intense. [...] Two weeks, no days off, huge on sleep deprivation."
[15:45]
Upon completing his training, Scott was deployed to various field offices, starting in New York City, before being assigned to the San Antonio division, where he took on more significant undercover assignments.
Case Study: Infiltrating the Outlaws Biker Gang
One of Scott's most notable cases involved infiltrating the Outlaws biker gang. His approach was personable and boisterous, leveraging his natural charisma to build trust within the organization. Over a period of two years, Scott developed deep relationships with key members, gathering critical intelligence that would culminate in a major takedown.
Notable Quote:
"We wanted that target going to bed thinking that was a good day. You don't want them laying in bed going, man, there's something wasn't right about that guy."
[42:16]
Scott describes the complexities of maintaining his cover, including moments of intense fear and adrenaline dumps that tested his ability to stay composed under pressure.
Notable Quote:
"I forgot my middle name. [...] I was using a distraction technique to try to get more intelligence."
[16:02]
The culmination of his efforts resulted in a sophisticated operation where multiple FBI field offices collaborated to arrest key members of the Outlaws, effectively dismantling a significant portion of the gang's operations.
Notable Quote:
"They pulled close enough, they heard everything. They put on their vest, they suited up."
[15:00]
Psychological and Personal Challenges
Scott openly discusses the psychological impact of long-term undercover work, including burnout, loss of personal identity, and the strain it placed on his family life. The constant need to maintain a façade led to significant stress, contributing to his eventual decision to retire.
Notable Quote:
"I'm a walking zombie. I was on antihistamines, decongestants, inhalers. I was taking hydroxy cuts like crazy. [...] I was on the couch, my daughters would be on my lap."
[11:55]
He emphasizes the importance of mental health support for those in similar roles, advocating for better work-life balance and psychological assessments to prevent long-term damage.
Notable Quote:
"I'm still human. [...] Rationalize that in your mind so it doesn't have an adverse impact on your psyche."
[75:18]
Infiltrating Neo-Nazi Organizations
Transitioning to more volatile territories, Scott details his infiltration of neo-Nazi groups, particularly focusing on the online aspect of recruitment and radicalization. He highlights the challenges of identifying genuine threats amidst the vast amounts of online noise and the sophisticated methods these groups use to conceal their activities.
Notable Quote:
"The base is an accelerationist group. [...] They have been twisted towards their white supremacy beliefs."
[113:17]
Scott explains how he leveraged his background and skills to gain the trust of these groups, conducting undercover operations that exposed violent plots and extremist ideologies. His involvement provided invaluable intelligence that helped law enforcement counteract these threats.
Notable Quote:
"They were planning to execute their version of the Wild Hunt—cleaning the world of non-whites."
[137:16]
Dealing with Extreme Criminals: Pedophiles and Human Trafficking
One of the most harrowing aspects of Scott’s career was his work with pedophilic individuals and human traffickers. He recounts his undercover interactions with perpetrators of heinous crimes, detailing the moral and emotional toll these encounters took on him.
Notable Quote:
"I met him twice. But what I found out from the solicitor's office and in Bexar county, it was mostly women working it because it was the crimes against children was combined with the domestic violence unit."
[164:21]
Scott describes an undercover case where he successfully apprehended a pedophile who had orchestrated a plan to kill a child, emphasizing the critical role of undercover agents in protecting vulnerable populations.
Notable Quote:
"He poured cocaine into his hand and said, but this right here, that's just a bump."
[163:08]
Experiences During Undercover Operations
Throughout his narrative, Scott shares vivid and intense experiences from his undercover missions, including moments of extreme danger, ethical dilemmas, and the constant threat of exposure. These stories highlight the high-stakes environment of undercover work and the fine line agents must walk to maintain their cover while gathering crucial evidence.
Notable Quote:
"When I was in the basement, [...] I forgot my middle name."
[16:02]
Another significant incident involved a planned sacrifice ritual by a neo-Nazi group, where Scott narrowly escaped a potentially deadly confrontation due to prior recordings and tactical support.
Notable Quote:
"Clothesline was supposed to kill me, but I was wired to the hilt."
[75:43]
Reflections and Personal Life
Scott reflects on the personal cost of his career, discussing the impact on his marriage and family life. His wife’s unwavering support and prayers provided a lifeline amidst the chaos of his undercover operations. Scott acknowledges the difficulty of balancing a demanding career with personal well-being, ultimately leading to his decision to retire and focus on his mental and physical health.
Notable Quote:
"I felt like a piece of trash when Clothesline told me that I was really. He considered me really his friend."
[94:42]
Scott emphasizes the importance of decompression and mental health support for undercover agents, sharing his struggles with burnout and the measures he took to regain balance in his life.
Notable Quote:
"I had to figure out a way to get out of that, you know."
[139:24]
Conclusion and Lessons Learned
In concluding the episode, Scott Payne shares the invaluable lessons he learned throughout his lengthy career. He underscores the necessity of psychological resilience, the importance of support systems, and the ethical complexities inherent in undercover work. His experiences serve as both a cautionary tale and a testament to the dedication required to dismantle organized crime and extremist groups from within.
Notable Quote:
"There's no case worth that. There's no case worth you getting addicted to drugs or endangering yourself."
[37:18]
Scott's final remarks highlight the human aspect of law enforcement, advocating for compassion, understanding, and the continuous pursuit of justice without losing one's identity in the process.
Notable Quote:
"We all mess up. I mean, shit. You know?"
[92:29]
Final Thoughts
Scott Payne's in-depth recounting of his undercover operations provides listeners with a rare glimpse into the clandestine world of law enforcement. His honest reflections on the personal and psychological challenges, coupled with gripping stories of infiltration and confrontation, make this episode a compelling exploration of the sacrifices made by those dedicated to upholding the law from the shadows.
For those interested in learning more about Scott Payne’s experiences, his book titled Codename Pale Horse: How I Went Undercover to Expose America's Nazis is available in both print and audiobook formats, offering a comprehensive account of his remarkable career.
Book Promotion:
"Codename Pale Horse is available now. [...] It's my voice."
[163:36]
End of Summary