#2321 - Dr. Zahi Hawass

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Joe Rogan Experience #2321 - Dr. Zahi Hawass

Release Date: May 14, 2025
Host: Joe Rogan
Guest: Dr. Zahi Hawass, Renowned Egyptologist

---

1. Introduction and Setting the Stage

Joe Rogan welcomes Dr. Zahi Hawass, expressing his excitement and long-standing interest in Egyptology.

• Joe Rogan [00:14]: "I have so many questions. I'm very excited to meet you. I've seen you in documentaries for decades... I'm completely fascinated by [Egypt]."

Zahi Hawass reciprocates the enthusiasm, sharing anecdotes about his experiences and early challenges in the field.

---

2. Debunking Alternative Theories on Pyramid Construction

A significant portion of the conversation centers on addressing and debunking alternative theories that suggest the pyramids were built by aliens or giants.

• Joe Rogan [02:45]: "I think Art Bell's real concern was how would someone possibly move those stones 4,500 years ago?"

Dr. Hawass provides detailed explanations of the architectural methods used by the ancient Egyptians, emphasizing human ingenuity and collective effort.

• Zahi Hawass [02:59]: "The Egyptian doesn't use muscles, they use their brain. Because the pyramid was the national project of the whole nation."

He shares a compelling story illustrating the precision and planning involved in pyramid construction, countering claims that such feats are beyond human capability.

• Zahi Hawass [04:00]: "If you stood in front of the Great Pyramid and you look at it, you will never believe that this pyramid was built by human beings."

---

3. Discoveries Supporting Human Construction of the Pyramids

Dr. Hawass discusses his discoveries that provide evidence of the people who built the pyramids, including the workers' tombs and their living conditions.

• Zahi Hawass [14:22]: "The lower cemetery were for the burial of the workmen who moved the stones. And the upper cemetery was for the technicians."

He highlights the sophisticated organization and support systems that sustained a workforce of around 10,000 laborers.

• Zahi Hawass [16:37]: "They slaughtered 11 cows and 33 goats every day. And this can feed 10,000 workmen a day."

---

4. Hieroglyphics and Written Evidence in the Great Pyramid

A pivotal moment in the discussion is the revelation of hieroglyphic inscriptions found within the Great Pyramid, offering firsthand accounts of its construction.

• Zahi Hawass [26:27]: "The papyri is just like leaves. Okay, now, but listen to the papyri. It is a diary of an overseer of the workmen."

These inscriptions detail the logistics of stone cutting, transportation, and placement, providing concrete evidence against fringe theories.

• Zahi Hawass [31:06]: "This papyri was found in Sinai in a port belongs to Khufu... Mirror is saying, I am Sahaj and hieroglyphic means inspector."

---

5. Addressing Modern Technological Claims and Misinterpretations

The conversation shifts to modern claims made using satellite tomography and other technologies that suggest hidden chambers within the pyramids.

• Joe Rogan [71:34]: "They think that there's these pillars underneath the structure."

Dr. Hawass expresses skepticism about these claims, citing limitations of the technology and emphasizing his team's findings through traditional excavation methods.

• Zahi Hawass [72:35]: "They have not. And that's why if the Italians were confident they could contact me, I'm the pyramid expert, that anyone should."

He maintains that tangible, on-site evidence remains paramount over satellite data interpretations.

---

6. The Sphinx: Myths, Erosion, and Restoration Efforts

Dr. Hawass elaborates on his extensive work in restoring the Sphinx, addressing theories about its age and the nature of its erosion.

• Zahi Hawass [87:30]: "We published many articles that the erosion that you see outside and inside the Sphinx is from wind and not from water."

He critiques alternative theories suggesting advanced ancient technologies or extraterrestrial involvement, reaffirming natural erosion processes.

• Joe Rogan [87:21]: "What do you think about Robert Schoch and his theory about the temple and the erosion outside of the Sphinx? That it's water erosion."

• Zahi Hawass [88:07]: "We dug an area northeast of the Sphinx. ... The Sphinx is a solid rock or a living rock and there is nothing underneath."

---

7. Debunking Myths and Emphasizing Evidence-Based Archaeology

Throughout the episode, Dr. Hawass consistently emphasizes the importance of evidence-based archaeology, dismissing myths and unfounded theories without credible supporting data.

• Zahi Hawass [93:37]: "I am a scientist. I am happy to hear this from you... but I never heard of this king list at all."

He criticizes the propagation of myths and stresses the necessity of scholarly research and publication for validating archaeological findings.

---

8. Concluding Remarks and Future Endeavors

As the podcast nears its end, Joe Rogan expresses awe at Dr. Hawass's dedication and achievements, accepting his invitation to visit Egypt.

• Joe Rogan [117:25]: "I'm definitely going to take you up in your offer, and I'm definitely going to go to Egypt."

Dr. Hawass shares his ongoing projects, including the discovery of Imhotep's tomb, and reiterates his commitment to conservation and public education about Egypt's ancient wonders.

• Zahi Hawass [115:35]: "I spent most of my life there. ... I have been excavating for the last 57 years."

---

Key Takeaways and Insights

• Human Ingenuity: The construction of the pyramids was a testament to the organizational skills and engineering knowledge of ancient Egyptians, negating the need for extraterrestrial or mythical explanations.

• Archaeological Evidence: Discoveries such as workers' tombs, hieroglyphic diaries, and organized infrastructure support the narrative of a well-planned national project dedicated to pyramid building.

• Skepticism of Fringe Theories: Dr. Hawass remains critical of non-traditional theories lacking credible evidence, advocating for adherence to scientifically validated findings.

• Ongoing Research and Discoveries: Egyptology continues to evolve with new discoveries, as illustrated by Dr. Hawass's recent findings and his engagement with modern technological tools for exploration.

• Conservation Efforts: Preserving Egypt's ancient monuments remains a priority, with significant efforts invested in restoration and protection from environmental and human-induced damages.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Zahi Hawass [14:22]:

  "The lower cemetery were for the burial of the workmen who moved the stones. And the upper cemetery was for the technicians."

• Zahi Hawass [16:37]:

  "They slaughtered 11 cows and 33 goats every day. And this can feed 10,000 workmen a day."

• Zahi Hawass [26:27]:

  "The papyri is just like leaves. Okay, now, but listen to the papyri. It is a diary of an overseer of the workmen."

• Zahi Hawass [31:06]:

  "This papyri was found in Sinai in a port belongs to Khufu... Mirror is saying, I am Sahaj and hieroglyphic means inspector."

• Zahi Hawass [87:30]:

  "We published many articles that the erosion that you see outside and inside the Sphinx is from wind and not from water."

---

This episode offers an in-depth look into Dr. Zahi Hawass's extensive work in Egyptology, providing listeners with evidence-based insights into one of humanity's most enduring mysteries—the construction of the pyramids. By addressing misconceptions and sharing firsthand discoveries, Dr. Hawass reinforces the remarkable capabilities of ancient civilizations through meticulous research and dedication.

Transcript

[Joe Rogan]

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

[Zahi Hawass]

The Joe Rogan Experience.

[Jamie Vernon]

Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.

[Joe Rogan]

You can talk as long as you want.

[Zahi Hawass]

No, it's up to you at the time.

[Joe Rogan]

It's up to you. I'll talk to you forever. I have so many questions. I'm very excited to meet you. I've seen you in documentaries for decades. So many documentaries. I've watched so many things about Egypt. I'm completely fascinated by it.

[Zahi Hawass]

You know, I will tell you something. Do you know this guy used to do a radio show late evening?

[Joe Rogan]

Art Bell, the best. He was the best.

[Zahi Hawass]

I need to say this on air. I need to say his story on air.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay, now?

[Zahi Hawass]

Are we on air now?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, we're on air.

[Zahi Hawass]

Art Bell used every. Everything to attack me.

[Jamie Vernon]

He did?

[Zahi Hawass]

Yes. Oh, how the, how the Egyptian can move stones. That's not true. The Egyptians cannot do that. Ba ba ba ba ba. Then I was teaching at UCLA and he called me for an interview. I said, no, I'm not going to give you an interview until you come to visit me in Egypt. And he said, okay. He came with his wife. I took him to a quarry that we are cutting stones to construct the Sphinx. Then I brought a stone, 8 tons weight, and I brought a man on the age of 70, and I told this man, cut this stone. The old man stood above the stone. You know, stones has weak parts like us. With a pencil, he draw a line from the beginning to the end. In the middle he put a piece of iron, bom bom. He cut it for twice acid. Art. The Egyptian doesn't use muscles, they use their brain. Because the pyramid was the national project of the whole nation. If you go today, if I take you today with me, and you know, I always tell people this. I give lectures maybe three, four times a week for American groups. And I tell them the. If you stood in front of the Great pyramid and you look at it, you will never believe that this pyramid built by human being. Why? Because you don't know. And number two, if you try to do it today, you'll never be able to do it. Are you going to hire today 10,000 workmen to work for 10, for 28 years for nothing? That was the national project of the whole nation.

[Joe Rogan]

I think Art Bell's real concern was how would someone possibly move those stones 4,500 years ago? Okay, a lot of questions, right?

[Zahi Hawass]

Yes. But can I answer you now?

[Joe Rogan]

Yes, please.

[Zahi Hawass]

Listen. Two examples. I will tell you. The first example happened a few years ago. I discovered A tomb in a site called Abusir. In the top of the tomb there was a huge granite sarcophagus, 20 tons weight. Okay, okay. If you come to Egypt. Have you been in Egypt?

[Joe Rogan]

No, I haven't.

[Zahi Hawass]

Do you have to if you talk about Egypt?

[Joe Rogan]

No, I have to.

[Zahi Hawass]

You have to come. I know, but you have to tell me before you come.

[Joe Rogan]

I'll come.

[Zahi Hawass]

I will tell you now, I promise. I brought only 10 people because I called the minister of culture and I told them we found an intact too. And the minister said, wait, I will bring the reporter, the press and we'll do it live. I said, okay, but I hate to do anything live. Then I came to the site. I brought my workmen. 10 workmen only moved the 20 tons only by wooden stages. We found underneath another sarcophagus, 10 tons weight of granite. We took the third one and we found underneath another a third one, 5 tons weight. We took the 5 tons out and we found underneath a coffin with a mummy. And I told the workerman, put everything back. And I called the minister. I said, you can bring the press, we'll open it life. I never told them that I cheated him, but only in a site that I'm excavating right now. We do discover 60ft under the ground. We discover sealed sarcophagus. The lid is about 10 tons weight. Two workmen only open the lid for me. We have a machine called the Devil. I don't know why they called it the Devil.

[Joe Rogan]

Devil, Devil. Why?

[Zahi Hawass]

I don't know. I asked them. They said our grandfathers called it like that. Then they brought.

[Joe Rogan]

This is an ancient machine.

[Zahi Hawass]

It is an ancient machine.

[Joe Rogan]

Jamie could probably pull it up. It's probably online.

[Zahi Hawass]

Then they put this machine under the lid and they come doing like this and they raise the lid little bit. When the lid is raised, they put a piece of wood, another piece of wood until there is a half a feet that I can put my face inside with the. With the flashlight to see what's inside the Kuf. That's what we. Because the people today are the descendants of the ancient Egyptian. There is a village located north of Luxor. And this village, all the people work in antiquities and they know if you look at their faces exactly like the ancient Egyptian people. And all the people working with me. I'm excavating right now in Giza. We're going to tell you good news inside the Great Pyramid that we found and also in Saqqara and Luxor. And this why in my lecture tour now I'm making Major important announcement that will talk about with you today.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay, what did you find?

[Zahi Hawass]

Now you know. Can I call you Joe?

[Joe Rogan]

Please do.

[Zahi Hawass]

And you call me Zahir.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay.

[Zahi Hawass]

Now you know, I do receive fan emails.

[Jamie Vernon]

You've received emails?

[Joe Rogan]

Fan fan emails.

[Zahi Hawass]

About 50 a week. Some of them bad ones. Some people think that I discovered evidence to prove that pyramids built by aliens or lost civilization and I hide them. I never answer these questions, but to you, I tell you, how do I. How can I hide anything? I'm not working alone, I'm working with people. You cannot hide anything because people will see you and I will tell you a joke. It happened, but it's a joke. A reporter came to see me from California to my office and my office was located next to the great pyramid of Khufu. And he said to me, people say at 12 noon you leave your office and you go to the bathroom and you open a tunnel from your bathroom. It's what he said. And you go from the tunnel to the great pyramid and you hide things and you come back. I said, okay, what do you need from me now? He said, I want to see your bathroom. This really happened. He went to my bathroom.

[Joe Rogan]

Did he check all the panels?

[Zahi Hawass]

And he came back. Have you seen any tunnels in my bathroom? He said, no. I said, what are you going to do now? He said, I will publish your bathroom in the Internet. And therefore, if you want to see my bathroom, write www.hawassbathroom.com.

[Joe Rogan]

Is that much of an issue that people really believe it that you had to make a website for it?

[Zahi Hawass]

They do, they do believe in this. And some of them attack me badly.

[Jamie Vernon]

Well, that's part of the problem, right.

[Joe Rogan]

Is that the Egyptian pyramids and just Egypt in general is so spectacular. The accomplishments of the ancient Egyptians were so monumental and so above anything that anybody had ever achieved. And since you know what they've done thousands and thousands of years ago, still to this day puzzles people when they try to figure out how it was built.

[Jamie Vernon]

This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. Speed dating is an interesting concept, isn't it? Setting an allotted amount of time to get to know as many people as you can. It increases your chances of finding a good match. And there's not a whole lot of room. You have to cut to the chase.

[Joe Rogan]

To find what you're looking for. Wouldn't it be nice if you had.

[Jamie Vernon]

Something like that when it comes to.

[Joe Rogan]

Hiring for your business?

[Jamie Vernon]

Well, Good news, there's ZipRecruiter. ZipRecruiter has a new Zip Intro feature that helps speed up the hiring process, connecting you with qualified candidates faster. You can try it for [e-mail] Rogan as soon as you post your job, Zip Intro will get to work. You could easily even be talking to candidates in back to back calls the very next day. All you have to do is pick a time and it'll start scheduling top talent for you to meet. Enjoy the benefits of speed hiring with the new Zip Intro feature only from ZipRecruiter rated the number one hiring site based on G2. Try Zip Intro for free at ZipRecruiter.com Rogan again that ZipRecruiter.com RogAn Zip Intro post jobs today. Talk to qualified candidates tomorrow. This episode is brought to you by Manscaped Guys. It matters what razor you use, and if you like to keep things smooth up top like me, it's even more important. Level up your grooming game with Manscaped. They have the tools you need for a great shave like their new Dome Shaver plus it can give you the quickest, cleanest and most comfortable shave. And and it's all thanks to its design. It features four stainless steel rotary blades with skin safe technology to help reduce nicks and cuts. And the Flex Adjust technology helps the blades adapt to all the unique contours on your scalp so you can easily achieve that shiny smooth look all over. Nothing's worse than making it halfway through the day and you realize you missed a spot. And even though it's electric, you can use the Dome Shaver plus wet or dry, you don't even need shaving cream. Use it during your morning shower routine or on the go while traveling. The blade pad is magnetic and it comes with a hair chamber to make cleanup easier. Whether you're coming back from an elk hunt or getting ready for a big UFC night, this bad boy has you covered. So ditch your rusty razor and messy shaving routine and upgrade to the dome shaver. Plus visit manscaped.com and use the code rogan for 20 off plus free shipping. That's 20% off plus plus free shipping worldwide with the code [e-mail] I will tell you.

[Joe Rogan]

You will tell me how it was built?

[Zahi Hawass]

Of course.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay, I How do you know?

[Zahi Hawass]

How do you know?

[Jamie Vernon]

How do you know?

[Zahi Hawass]

I found all the evidence of building the pyramid. We published a book. 1000 pages. This book is the bible of the pyramids of Giza Plateau.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay, tell me how they did it.

[Zahi Hawass]

Now what we found out the major Problem that people think about pyramids. Because most of the information that's written on pyramids are wrong.

[Joe Rogan]

Most of it. Most of it in archaeology books.

[Zahi Hawass]

In archaeology books really, except me and Mark Lehner.

[Joe Rogan]

You guys are the only ones that have it right.

[Zahi Hawass]

Because I have been working in Giza for the last 50, 70 years of my life. I excavated every piece of sand.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay, what do the archaeologists have wrong in these archaeologists books?

[Zahi Hawass]

For example, number one, they say that the workmen who built the pyramids worked only four months a year. When the flood covered the whole country, the king hired the workermen to work in his pyramid. This is wrong. And I will tell you what's correct. Number two, that the stones used in building the Great Pyramid came from Torah. And Torah is a 25 miles to the east from Giza. And number three, that Khufu ruled for 23 years. And number four, that the stones of the Great Pyramid are 2,300,000 blocks.

[Joe Rogan]

How many blocks are there?

[Zahi Hawass]

Now let us talk about number one, the workmen.

[Joe Rogan]

The workmen.

[Zahi Hawass]

I found the tombs of the pyramid builders only one mile south of the Sphinx. A major important discovery that can tell everyone. Number one, that pyramids built by Egyptians because of the names that we found inside the cemetery. And they were not slaves. Because I have to. I have to.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, kill that thing.

[Zahi Hawass]

Kill it. You're right. I always. Because I do lots of interviews, I always close it.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, I get it.

[Zahi Hawass]

Except it today.

[Joe Rogan]

No worries. Nobody knows how to shut these things off anymore.

[Zahi Hawass]

Then now this discover.

[Joe Rogan]

So explain. So you found the pyramids? Excuse me? You found the workers pyramids graves a.

[Zahi Hawass]

Mile away away, one mile south of the pyramids.

[Joe Rogan]

And by their names.

[Zahi Hawass]

Then I found names of the workmen. I found the lower cemetery. The lower cemetery were for the burial of the workmen who moved the stones. And the upper cemetery was for the technicians.

[Joe Rogan]

Right. And how do you know this?

[Zahi Hawass]

I will tell you. Okay, now the tombs down there are very primitive tombs. Built from mud brick, cost nothing. Underneath is a skeleton. And if a skeleton is for a man, he's holding a beer jar, he wants to drink beer in the afterlife. If the skeleton is for a woman, she has a perfume vessels. She wants to have perfume in the afterlife. Inside the upper cemetery I found 21 titles in hieroglyphic. For example, the overseer in hieroglyphic of the side of the pyramid.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, it says that the overseer of.

[Zahi Hawass]

The side of the pyramid Imra Ges Mer. In hieroglyphic. The overseer of the west side of the Pyramid draftsman, craftsman, the one who stand in front of the harper. All these titles had to do with building the pyramid. Inside the tombs, we found the tools that the Egyptians used to cut the stones.

[Joe Rogan]

What tools?

[Zahi Hawass]

Durite and flint tools. Because in the old kingdom there was no iron.

[Joe Rogan]

Are these photos of these tools available online? Can we look at them?

[Zahi Hawass]

Yeah, I can send it to you.

[Joe Rogan]

Are they online?

[Zahi Hawass]

No, in my book, Giza and the Pyramids. I don't know if it's online.

[Joe Rogan]

I'm sure it's online. Jamie will find it. So these students, these tools were flint and durite. What is durite?

[Zahi Hawass]

Durite. D I O R I T E Durite is more sharp stone than iron. And it came from a quarry south of Aswan.

[Joe Rogan]

So you feel like they used this very hard stone to cut into.

[Zahi Hawass]

Cut the stones. And I will come back to. To this cutting the stones. But let me continue about the workmen.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay.

[Zahi Hawass]

To the east of the tombs, we found an area for sorting salted fish. We found an area for the bakery making bread. We found the workman barracks for the workmen who moved the stones to live. We found a whole city for the technicians, for the artisans. And we discovered thousands of animal bones. Because people always say that the workmen who built the pyramid, they ate only garlic and bread and drink beer. And I thought, if they do that, they will die. But now we discovered that they slaughter 11 cows and 33 goats every day. And this can feed 10,000 workmen a day. Then we believe now, and I published that the workmen who built the pyramids were 10,000 workmen. And they worked every day and they took one day off every 10 days. Joe, I want to tell you, the pyramid was the national prospect. The three millions who lived in Egypt had to build the pyramid for the king to be a God. And therefore the households in the south and the north of Egypt participated in building the pyramid by sending workforce and food to help the king. Now we come to the second point, the stones. We discovered that all the stones of the three pyramids at Giza, the stones came from quarries in the site itself.

[Joe Rogan]

Even the king's chamber?

[Zahi Hawass]

No, except. Except the granite in the king's chamber. And.

[Joe Rogan]

And where'd that come from?

[Zahi Hawass]

From aswan.

[Joe Rogan]

And that's 500 miles away, right?

[Zahi Hawass]

Yes, by the flood. The flood.

[Joe Rogan]

And those were 50 to 80 tons.

[Zahi Hawass]

It doesn't matter.

[Joe Rogan]

It doesn't.

[Zahi Hawass]

Yes.

[Joe Rogan]

If I was working there, it would matter.

[Zahi Hawass]

No, because I showed to you. I showed to you not only 50 tons, it's 20 tons. Now what we found out first how the Egyptian built the pyramid. They make on the ground a square base. Okay?

[Joe Rogan]

Okay.

[Zahi Hawass]

And after that they cut in the solid rock in the four sides. You know, I'm going to tell you one thing, okay? If you tell me that pyramids built by giants, okay, I will say, okay, come to the excavation. All the skeleton that we discovered are five to six feet high. Nothing about giants.

[Joe Rogan]

I'm not saying they were built by giants.

[Zahi Hawass]

Some people say that. Okay, the second.

[Joe Rogan]

I've heard aliens.

[Zahi Hawass]

Okay, the second. Aliens. If aliens build the pyramids, do they leave any? Do they shit? Sometimes? Aren't they going to shit?

[Joe Rogan]

Maybe aliens don't shit.

[Zahi Hawass]

If they don't shit, are they going to leave something on the ground? On the contrary. I give you the evidence, every evidence that I will tell you today of actual workers and what's happening now. We come about building the pyramid. All the stones, I told you came from Giza Plateau. We found out what happened first. They cut in the solid rock, okay? And they made the base of the pyramid to be 28ft on the solid rock. No stones. Do you get this?

[Joe Rogan]

Yes.

[Zahi Hawass]

We have in Egypt 120 pyramids. We don't have only Khufu pyramid that everyone is talking about. You have 120 pyramids. This is one of them. But the reason that this pyramid is so accurate and strong, because Giza Plateau is the only site in Egypt of the pyramids. It's a part of the Mukattam formation. It has three levels. Level one and two are very bad stones. But level three is the top quality of the stones, that the Egyptians use this stone to build the pyramid. Then after they make the base of the pyramid to be 20ft each of stone, we found out 1,000ft away, we found out the quarry location.

[Joe Rogan]

So they only had to bring the stones 1,000ft only.

[Zahi Hawass]

Only the stones that came from outside are the casing stones. And I will talk about this later, that came from Torah and the granite came from Aswan.

[Joe Rogan]

And the casing stones were the outside smooth surface.

[Zahi Hawass]

Exactly. Came from Torah. Then. Now, when we discovered the quarry location and the base of the pyramid, we thought how they established the ramp. You know, the ramp to move. To move the stones.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Zahi Hawass]

We found out if the Egyptian will make the ramp from the quarry to the base, it will never happen because when you raise the base, you need to extend the ramp. We found out, listen to this carefully. That the only way to have a permanent ramp is, is to come to the southwest corner of the main pyramid. They built the ramp like this.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay.

[Zahi Hawass]

And I excavated. And these are photos in my book. Giza and the pyramids. I excavated from here to her. When the Egyptian construct a ramp, when they finish building the pyramid, they demolish the. They demolished the ramp. They cannot demolish all of it. They have to leave something in the ground. Okay, do you get this?

[Joe Rogan]

Yes.

[Zahi Hawass]

I excavated from here to her. I found in situ remains of the ramp.

[Joe Rogan]

Are there photos of this?

[Zahi Hawass]

Of course, in my book.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay, let's find the photos of the equipment first. Can't find anything.

[Zahi Hawass]

It's in my book.

[Joe Rogan]

What did you find?

[Unknown]

Well, not. Nothing.

[Joe Rogan]

Nothing? How is that not online? That doesn't even make sense.

[Zahi Hawass]

It's in my book. Giza and the pyramids.

[Joe Rogan]

Maybe this.

[Zahi Hawass]

This are the things. These are the tombs of the pyramid builders right there. This is the excavation.

[Jamie Vernon]

This episode is brought to you by the farmer's dog. Dogs take a lot of care and.

[Joe Rogan]

Responsibility, but every minute is worth it. They add so much to our lives.

[Jamie Vernon]

I would do anything for my dog, and I'm sure you would too.

[Joe Rogan]

You probably only want the best for your pets, but figuring out what that.

[Jamie Vernon]

Is could be a real headache. There's a lot of misinformation out there, especially around dog food. Take kibble, for example. Nearly everyone has probably fed their dog kibble at some point.

[Joe Rogan]

But if you do a little digging.

[Jamie Vernon]

You'Ll find out Kibble is an ultra processed food. You'll notice that it comes in these bags with buzzwords like premium, with pictures of juicy meat and fresh vegetables. But inside, it's dried pellets. And the vague serving suggestions make it really hard to get the portions right. Luckily, there's a simpler, better option. The farmer's dog is healthy food from people who care about what goes into your dog's body. They make dog food that's actually real food. It's meat and vegetables lightly cooked. And it's developed by board certified nutritionists to be complete and balanced and made to the same safety standards as our food. Unlike kibble, it's pre portioned just for your dog's needs. That makes it easy to get your dog to the right weight and keep them there, which is one of the biggest predictors of a longer, healthier life. I mean, it's the same for us too. When you eat right, when your body gets all the vitamins and nutrients it needs, you just feel better. Look, no one, dog or human, should be eating highly processed foods for every meal. And it doesn't matter how old your dog is. It's always a great time to start investing in their health and happiness. So try the Farmers dog today. It can help your dogs be healthier, happier and more energetic. You can get 50% off your first box of fresh, healthy food@the farmerdog.com rogan plus you get free shipping. Just go to the farmersdog.com rogan tap the banner or visit this episode's page to learn more. Offer applicable for new customers only.

[Zahi Hawass]

And this all what I discovered. This is my discovery of everything. Every piece of sand here tells us about the builder of the pyramid. But let me continue this. I will come to you now. Let us, let us. If you go to my book, you will find out that I found here the durite and the flint tools. Listen, now I will come the stones for building the pyramid and came from the plateau. The casing came from Torah. Now we come to how. How many years Khufu ruled. Joe, there is one big discovery happened few years ago.

[Joe Rogan]

Are these the tools?

[Zahi Hawass]

No, no, this is tools for. For artists. The tools in my. In our book, which is big D. Right? Tools and big flint tools. Big ones.

[Joe Rogan]

And why is this not online?

[Zahi Hawass]

Whoever put it online, it's in my book.

[Joe Rogan]

Right, but I mean, wouldn't that be everywhere? I mean, that's such a huge archaeological discovery.

[Zahi Hawass]

It's not. It's because it's everywhere. It's not only in the Wykhamn only, it's in every site. You have these tools in many sites.

[Joe Rogan]

Right. But why aren't these tools online? That's all I'm asking.

[Zahi Hawass]

Ask the people online. But they are in remains in my book.

[Joe Rogan]

Are they in a museum somewhere?

[Zahi Hawass]

There is some in the Cairo museum. Yes.

[Joe Rogan]

So there should be a photograph of them in the museum.

[Zahi Hawass]

Okay.

[Joe Rogan]

What would Jamie look for? But I don't know. I'm just like asking him now.

[Zahi Hawass]

I want to come to what museum would have Cairo museum.

[Joe Rogan]

Cairo museum would have those tools?

[Zahi Hawass]

Yes.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay.

[Zahi Hawass]

Now, few years ago, a major discovery happened for the first time. It is the first time that we have written evidence about building the pyramid of Khufu.

[Joe Rogan]

When did this happen?

[Zahi Hawass]

Three years ago.

[Joe Rogan]

Really?

[Zahi Hawass]

It's called the Wadi Al Jarf papyri. Do you want to know what's in this papyri?

[Joe Rogan]

I do.

[Zahi Hawass]

This papyri was found in Sinai in a port belongs to Khufu. And inside this port there was caves. And inside the caves found remains of both. And this big Baba Tar. Huge. That's it. Exactly. Okay, and what does this say now?

[Joe Rogan]

First of all, how old is that?

[Zahi Hawass]

4,600 years ago.

[Joe Rogan]

Isn't that amazing? And listen, you could find writing in this. So papyrus was made with animal skin. Correct.

[Zahi Hawass]

No, papyrus was of papyrus from the papyri.

[Joe Rogan]

Right. What is. What is it?

[Zahi Hawass]

The papyri is just like leaves. Okay, now, but listen to the papyri. It is a diary of an overseer of the workman. His name is Mirror. M E R E R. Okay. Mirror is saying, I am Sahaj and hieroglyphic means inspector. Under me working 40 workmans. I was hired by Khufu to work in his pyramid. This is in hieroglyphic. And he said, my big. My. My immediate boss. His name is Diddy.

[Joe Rogan]

Like P. Diddy.

[Zahi Hawass]

Diddy, yes. Now, 20 years ago, in my excavation west of the Great Pyramid of Khufu, I discovered 20 tombs.

[Joe Rogan]

These are the tools.

[Zahi Hawass]

No, no, no. This is not the tools. No, no. The tools are really sharp type of big tools. We found some of them.

[Joe Rogan]

What is that Jamie's looking at? What are these?

[Zahi Hawass]

This could be this. The tombs in the left is like them in the left here.

[Joe Rogan]

Those tools.

[Zahi Hawass]

No, no, no, no more. No doubt. No where. You know, here there is two. There is more to the left. To the left, to the left, to the left. No, again.

[Joe Rogan]

What?

[Zahi Hawass]

These two tools.

[Joe Rogan]

You mean up, down. What are you talking.

[Zahi Hawass]

The second one after this one. That's it. Up. That's it. And this one.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, those, Those. Yeah. But don't those look exactly like the other photograph? We just had those up there. That looks like the heads of.

[Zahi Hawass]

This was the smalls. I'm talking about big ones.

[Joe Rogan]

So that's.

[Zahi Hawass]

These are tools for. For making statues and things like. But not cutting the stones.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, I see. So these are the same kind of tools though with the same kind of materials.

[Zahi Hawass]

But let me talk about the babyre again because this many people don't know about this. Then Mehler said, my boss's name is Didi. Twenty years ago, I excavated west of the Great Pyramid of Khufu. I found 20 tombs, beautiful ones. I published all of them except one small tomb. I said is not important. Three years ago I found. This is the tomb of Didi, the person that he was the boss of Mirror. And I published this tomb. You can find this tomb online now. It's called Didi's tomb by Zahi Hawass west of the Great Pyramid of Khufu. Now listen, Joel, what Mirror said, I took my workmen. This is in hieroglyphic. We went to Torah to cut the white fine limestone. This sentence means that the pyramid was finished and Merer went to bring the stones for the casing. And he said, I'm not alone. There is many other gangs are cutting the stones and Torah is in north and south. And he said, I divided my gangs to three gangs. One gang to cut the stones and one gang is smoothing the stones and smoothing the stones with the right tools to face the stones for the casing. And after that he said, and the third group moving the stones in wooden sledges to us.

[Joe Rogan]

This is all in the papyri.

[Zahi Hawass]

In the papyri to a cargo boat. What happened in the Old Kingdom? We have evidence that the River Nile, the Egyptian cut to the west of this River Nile, another Nile to be near the pyramid. From this Nile, they cut a canal. At the end of the canal there is a harbor. In front of every pyramid I discovered in my excavation in front of Khufu pyramid there is a village called Naslat Saman. In this village, the people were building houses. Underneath the houses we found basalt.

[Joe Rogan]

Walls.

[Zahi Hawass]

I stopped the construction of the houses and I excavated the whole area. I found this is the harbor of Khufu. And I published this in an article. And I excavated in front of the Sphinx temple and I found the harbor of Kiffin. And it's published now. The reason for the canal and the harbor to bring non local stones. Granite from Aswan, alabaster from Middle Egypt, durite from Nubia, basalt from Fayum, white limestone from Torah. The Egyptian had everything.

[Joe Rogan]

So they essentially cut a second canal. They cut a canal just so they can move the stones to where they wanted them.

[Zahi Hawass]

And I discovered all of this. And this is published if you write.

[Joe Rogan]

And so this was all the casing stones.

[Zahi Hawass]

Exactly right.

[Joe Rogan]

Is it possible that the casing stones were put on later?

[Zahi Hawass]

No. After you finish building the pyramid. There is two important things. When they finish building the pyramid, I discovered in a site called Abusir, I discovered two scenes. One scene recommend dragging a capstone. Above the capstone is a hieroglyphic word called Ja' Am.

[Joe Rogan]

So where is this?

[Zahi Hawass]

Where is this?

[Joe Rogan]

This is in hieroglyphs. Dragging the capstone.

[Zahi Hawass]

Yes.

[Joe Rogan]

Can we see this?

[Zahi Hawass]

Find out? I don't know if it's the Internet or not.

[Joe Rogan]

What would Jamie look for?

[Zahi Hawass]

Look for Zahi Hawe's discovery in Abusir.

[Joe Rogan]

How much do you think was lost during the burning of the Library of Alexandria?

[Zahi Hawass]

A lot, of course.

[Joe Rogan]

Everything.

[Zahi Hawass]

Right, Everything. And this, why? What I'm telling you based I have been excavating in Giza Zhou for the last 57 years I know every piece of sand in the site. And I want to tell you one thing also, okay? I am the only Egyptologist who have an open mind, really that I reveal. I always look, yes, I always look at what the public say. And I will tell you about this later. I will tell you what I found in the pyramid. But let me finish this story and after that I will come back to tell you how I look at what people say and I try to to investigate this. Now Merer said, I put the stones on a cargo boat, okay? And we came in the boat to Giza Plateau. The workmen took the stones up to the pyramid. We slipped overnight in Giza. I got up early in the morning with my worker wanted totorah. He made many times talking about that. Then he said I wanted to Sinai to bring Kabul and turquoise. But he said in Sinai, our big boss, his name is Ankaf. We know from text that the architect who designed the Great Pyramid, who was Khufu's cousin, his name was Hem Ionu Then. Actually, it seems now that Hem Yonu died and Ankaf completed the Great Pyramid and built the second pyramid of his son Khephren. Then he said, I'm working in year 27 of KUF's reign. He mentioned that Kuf was alive in year 27.

[Joe Rogan]

How long do you think he reigned for?

[Zahi Hawass]

28 years. I published an article. I published an article about. You can find this article, Zaya, Why.

[Joe Rogan]

Was the age 23, 23 years? Why was that attributed to them?

[Zahi Hawass]

Now this is a good question.

[Jamie Vernon]

This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. It's important that you take care of yourself physically and mentally. Because if you refuse to get help, you're not just hurting yourself, you're hurting the people around you. It can impact your family, friends, even your colleagues. And you know, mental health has come a long way. Despite all our progress, though, there's still a stigma. In a recent survey, 26% say they avoided seeking mental health support due to fear of judgment. This Mental Health Awareness month, let's change that. I'm encouraging everyone to take care of their well being and you should too. Therapy is an excellent tool that everyone can benefit from. It teaches valuable skills from how to be more self aware to healthier ways you can express emotions and more. If you want to be a better version of yourself, therapy is where it starts. And BetterHelp is a great way to get the therapy that you need. They have over 10 years of experience matching people with the right therapist. Everything is also entirely online so it's more affordable and convenient. And if that's still not enough to convince you, maybe this will. Over 5 million people worldwide use better.

[Joe Rogan]

Help so you're not alone when it.

[Jamie Vernon]

Comes to seeking support. We're all better with help. Visit betterhelp.com jre to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp H-E-L-P.com jre Egyptologist has a.

[Zahi Hawass]

Problem when they count the name of the king. Because when the ancient Egyptian counted the cattle, they counted the reign of the king. Sometimes they count the cattle every year. Sometimes they counted the cattle every two years. Then we make mistakes. But now we have year 27 of Kufu's reign and we have on the second boat bit that the Japanese are restoring. Now we know when the king died, his son bury him. Then Kufu's son, his name is Jeffrey, who did not respect his father. And I will tell you why he buried his father in year 28. Then we know now for sure that Khufu ruled for 28 years. Now Mirror said something that made me very happy. Because 25 years ago I wrote an article to say that Memphis was not the capital of Egypt. I said that the king ruled Egypt from the pyramid. If the pyramid is upper Wash, the king ruled Egypt from Abrawas. If the pyramid is in Giza, Giza, Abu Sayer, Saqqara. Then Merrill said something. Many people did not believe me when I wrote this article. But Merer said Khufu lived in his palace at Giza. If he lived in a palace at Giza means with a royal family, the public and the government. And he said that the area that Khufu lived in it in the pyramid called Ank Khufu in hieroglyphic means Khufu lives. This is the name of the city that Khufu lived in it. And Miller said we came to Giza in an area in hieroglyphic called Ra' she. And Rashe means literally mouth of the lake. This could be the entrance of Giza Plateau. But what's really strange, he said it took me almost one day for me and my workmen to up to come to the pyramid. Why? Because Giza entrance was busy. Every stone coming in has to be counted. Every workman has to sign the first letter of his name. And this is why if you go today to the port of New York, it will take you five hours to enter because it's busy. And this is what happened at Giza Plateau. This papyri, in my opinion Is really one of the most important discovery that tells us for the first time about building the pyramid. And now we come to the reign of Khufu 28 years. And now the stones of the great pyramid. I looked everywhere to find out how they counted the stones that people said it's 2 million and 300,000 blocks. I found no evidence. It's only when the Arabs came. You know, all the theories that the new age people say now it came from the Arabs. When the Arabs came and they entered the pyramid, they said all these nonsense stories about the pyramids. Then I never found any place to tell me how they cut the stones. But now we have evidence that the base of the pyramid is 20ft high of solid rock. No stones. In 2010, I brought a team, scientists from every field, and we recounted the stones. And based on the new evidence, and we found out that the stones of the pyramid are only no more than 1 million. And the average height of the limestone is half a ton to two and a half tons.

[Joe Rogan]

So the base of the pyramid is 20ft high, carved into solid stone.

[Zahi Hawass]

Yes.

[Joe Rogan]

And then the other rocks were placed on top of it.

[Zahi Hawass]

No. I want to come to when you told me about this capstone, because we did not complete the capstone.

[Joe Rogan]

Right. But let's start off with this, though. The base is 20ft high. And then the estimation was 2,300,000. But you think it's far less than.

[Zahi Hawass]

That because of the new discovery that we found that the base is made of the solid rock.

[Joe Rogan]

So before, they thought the base was individual stones.

[Zahi Hawass]

Yes.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay, so now that you know that the base is solid rock, that removes 1,300,000 stones that were necessary.

[Zahi Hawass]

Yes.

[Joe Rogan]

Got it. So they carved this base knowing they were going to put a pyramid on top of it. And what about the subterranean chambers?

[Zahi Hawass]

Every king in Egypt is buried underneath the pyramid. Everything except Khufu and his father, Seneffro. The only two kings they are not buried underneath is Khufu and his father. If you look at the one chamber underneath, it was cut and built. If you go down, it's left unfinished.

[Joe Rogan]

Left unfinished in what way?

[Zahi Hawass]

It was planned to cut it, but they did not complete it. You can see when you go down that the barrier chamber is not finished. Why?

[Joe Rogan]

Why?

[Zahi Hawass]

Because I found out in our research every king is Horus on earth. When the king die, he become the sun God. Okay, okay. Khufu in year five, he said, I am the sun God. And he abandoned the construction of the first burial chamber and he built his chamber within the Pyramid because he's the God.

[Joe Rogan]

And that's the queen's chamber, correct? No, the first one.

[Zahi Hawass]

I'm going to come to these chambers later. And the second evidence that he called his pyramid Akhat. Khufu means the horizon of Khufu. And the only one in the horizon is the Sangat. And the third evidence is something that only occurred at Giza. The Sphinx and its temple. I found that the Sphinx represent Caphren, the son of Khufu, giving offering with his two paws to his father, the sun God Khufu, who rises and sits in this temple, the first Sun Temple. And this why Khufu's pyramid is unique among the 120 pyramids. And I will tell you what I discovered inside the pyramid. Now.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay, now.

[Zahi Hawass]

Before I tell you about what I discovered, I have to complete the scene that I told you that I found. Workmen dragging a capstone. You remember you asked me that we stopped on that. Above the capstone there is hieroglyphic word called jaim. And Ja' im means white and yellow gold. A second scene I found ladies dancing and they called them the Khinr. And the Kinnar are the dance troupe of the king. My interpretation of these two scenes. When the pyramid was finished, the king asked the workmen to put the capstone in the top of the pyramid. When they put the capstone in the top of the pyramid cased with gold, the whole country dance and sing because the king became a God. That's what I call the national project of the whole nation. The three millions of who lived in Egypt in the time of the old kingdom. All of them participated in building the pyramid to make the king as a God.

[Joe Rogan]

This is your theory?

[Zahi Hawass]

Not a theory. No, it's fact. It is a fact. The pyramid was the national project.

[Joe Rogan]

That's not what I mean. I mean, it's your theory that the capstone was put on and.

[Zahi Hawass]

It's not a theory, it's based on evidence. I found the scenes.

[Joe Rogan]

The papari?

[Zahi Hawass]

No, the Baba is something else.

[Joe Rogan]

What are the words?

[Zahi Hawass]

It's blocks.

[Joe Rogan]

Blocks?

[Zahi Hawass]

Limestone blocks. One scene, workman dragging a capstone with the word Jaime.

[Joe Rogan]

Is this written in limestone blocks is what you're saying?

[Zahi Hawass]

No, it show the workman dragging a stone.

[Joe Rogan]

Shows it where?

[Zahi Hawass]

In the stone that I discovered.

[Joe Rogan]

So it's carved into the stone?

[Zahi Hawass]

Exactly. And the word Jaim in hieroglyphic above that.

[Joe Rogan]

Where is that at?

[Zahi Hawass]

It's an abuser. I found it.

[Joe Rogan]

But are there photographs online?

[Zahi Hawass]

Yes, in my book. I don't. I don't go online. Why? I have to go online. I go to my book.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, no, I understand, but for everybody else that doesn't have immediate access to.

[Zahi Hawass]

Your book, you should really. Did you find them online? It's called the abuser blocks. Abuser. A B as in boy.

[Joe Rogan]

How do you think they got the. The stones from the King's chamber 500 miles away and put them 120ft up in the. Up in the ceiling?

[Zahi Hawass]

It's. I told you, if you come today and see how the workerman move 20 tons of granite, you will understand.

[Joe Rogan]

Workers. Today?

[Zahi Hawass]

Yes, today like yesterday, the same workman.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay, right.

[Zahi Hawass]

But no Jones at different times.

[Joe Rogan]

Correct. If they're doing it today, they have access to modern machinery.

[Zahi Hawass]

If you don't know, they don't. No, it's everything based on the idea of the national project. They want to make this for the King.

[Joe Rogan]

I understand the national.

[Zahi Hawass]

Now, what I don't understand is the.

[Joe Rogan]

Physics involved in moving if you don't need ton blocks 500 miles through the mountains.

[Zahi Hawass]

If you don't believe on this.

[Joe Rogan]

It's not that I don't believe.

[Zahi Hawass]

I want to know inside this block. Inside.

[Joe Rogan]

It's not that I don't believe. I want you to explain to me how you think they did it. I explained to you from 500 miles away, 50 to 80 ton blocks.

[Zahi Hawass]

This comes through the Nile. You can bring all the stones, right?

[Joe Rogan]

But the quarries in the mountains, right?

[Zahi Hawass]

No, the quarries, the granite quarries in Aswan. And we have cutting of the obelisks and cutting of the stones and cut of everything in the site. And they brought. And when the flood comes in July, they bring boats through the flood. They bring all the stones to Giza Plateau.

[Joe Rogan]

They plan things for the floods. And then they would figure out some sort of a raft system to get them on and then move them that way.

[Zahi Hawass]

Now, if we now do not believe that this cannot be moved by human being. Okay, but on the other side, what I can tell you inside, above these blocks written the names of the gangs who built the pyramid above the king chamber. One of the names friend Khufu. I did a 3D few months ago and we recorded in the five chambers that had these huge blocks, we found two more names of the gangs. One name called those who are connected with the goddess Wadjet. And written year 13 of Khufu's reign on the third chamber. I took Mr. Beast with me two months ago. I took him and I showed him how these blocks, they were written by the workmen before they moved These stones. And in the fourth room, we have the good gut. Another name was year 13 of Khufu's reign. This is when they move the stones.

[Joe Rogan]

So I understand what you're saying. So you're saying that they took these stones, they waited for the flood season, they got these stones on rafts, they moved them down the river, they got them to the site. How did they get them 120ft in the air?

[Zahi Hawass]

You know, again, this is the most important thing. This is the national project.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, I understand. I just wondered what technology was used.

[Zahi Hawass]

No technology.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, technology is tools, technology is levers. Whatever they had at the time was their current.

[Zahi Hawass]

The huge wooden sledges.

[Joe Rogan]

Huge wooden sledges.

[Zahi Hawass]

This is the only way that today we move huge stones. This how my workmen moved 20 tons. Sarcophagus in a tomb.

[Joe Rogan]

How far did they move it?

[Zahi Hawass]

They moved it just a few feet away. But we have scenes of how workmen move 60 tons. Statue, how they move with the. And they draw it.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, I've seen those scenes.

[Zahi Hawass]

Yeah. Then we have all this type of scene that the Egyptian show that. Again, this is the national project.

[Joe Rogan]

Do you think they wet the ground? Like, what did you. Do you think that they did something like that to make the ground more slick so they could pull it? Yeah.

[Zahi Hawass]

Yes.

[Joe Rogan]

And then do they. Are they using sleds? Like, how do they use sledges?

[Zahi Hawass]

Wooden sledges.

[Joe Rogan]

And then they just. We have this slowly but surely pulled it into position.

[Zahi Hawass]

We have this in the tombs, these wooden stages.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Zahi Hawass]

But let me take you now to what I began to reveal the secret of Khufu Pyramid.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay.

[Zahi Hawass]

As I told you again, I always listen to what people say and I try to prove them if they are right or not. I was interested in the Great Pyramid most of my life because I was the inspector of the pyramid director. I spent most of my life there. Then I closed this pyramid for a year to stop humidity.

[Joe Rogan]

To stop humidity.

[Zahi Hawass]

Because every person, all the breathing. Exactly. Enter, insert. The pyramid gives about 20 gram of water. And this water becomes salt. Then mechanically, I removed the salt.

[Joe Rogan]

You had to clean the walls.

[Zahi Hawass]

Exactly. And after that I thought, how can I make a ventilation system of the pyramid? In the king chamber and the queen chamber, you have this tunnel 20 by 20 centimeter, only small tunnel.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Zahi Hawass]

Then I thought, I should clean these tunnels. Then I can make a ventilation system. I had no idea of what I'm going to find out.

[Joe Rogan]

What did you find out?

[Zahi Hawass]

Then I hired a German robot and we took the German robot to the King chamber. We are sitting in the king chamber with a TV screen. And the robot entered in the shaft. We found out that the interior of the pyramid, the stones were interplugged. And this is why when the Arabs came to Egypt and they said, man, first time and time, first pyramids. Then we found out that this shaft went outside. Then we put a fan here, and the fan suck the air and push it in the tunnel. And we made a ventilation system in the panel.

[Joe Rogan]

So this discovery of these stones, what was unusual about the way they were placed? You said they interlocked.

[Zahi Hawass]

Interblocked.

[Joe Rogan]

Inter blocked.

[Zahi Hawass]

Yes. Like this.

[Joe Rogan]

What do you mean by that? Oh, like fingers. Okay, so there's like different levels and they all slid in together.

[Zahi Hawass]

How they put the stones with each other. Okay, but now the most important. Then I took the robot to the second chamber. Now we know that the tunnel in the first chamber are open outside.

[Joe Rogan]

Open outside.

[Zahi Hawass]

I see why we have these tunnels in the second chamber. They call it Rongelia Kuni Chamber.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Zahi Hawass]

Then we took the robot to the northern tunnel of the query chamber. After 60ft, the robot stopped because the tunnel was bending to the left and the German robot could not bend. Then we took the robot to the south tunnel. The robot went for 200ft, stopped in front of a door with two copper handles. That was the first discovery. Now I began to think, how can I find out what's behind this door? In 2002, I was chosen by the National Geographic as explorer in residence were nine explorers. With them with us was Bill Billard, who found Titanic. Each explorer had a dream. I told them, I need you to design a robot for me. I want to find out what's behind this door. And they did make a robot, and they called it Pyramid Rover. We took the pyramid rover and the robot went in the south tunnel. And the robot had a drilling on his hand. The robot opened one hole, one centimeter and one millimeter and sent an optic camera through this hole. We found after 21 centimeter of this door, a second one. And the second one has an iggy shaped like that, as if it's hiding something. Then after that, we went to the northern tunnel that was bending. We found out it's bending north and south for 24ft. And the reason for the bending was to avoid the Grand Gallery. At 200ft, the robot stopped in front of a third door with two cover handles in the same distance of this one.

[Joe Rogan]

And these doors are very small, right?

[Zahi Hawass]

Very small. 20 by 20 centimeters.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay.

[Zahi Hawass]

Now, I spent most of my life from. From 2002 until 2024. Last year, I found a team from England, and we worked last year for three seasons. Number one, I found out above the king chamber, a big void. I'm sorry. Above the grand gallery, right? This void, the size of two trucks. Now, the second void behind the northern tunnel, another small void. Inside this void, we can see hieroglyphic inscriptions. Really?

[Joe Rogan]

So those are the only hieroglyphics on the Great Pyramid.

[Zahi Hawass]

And I can show you the footage in my. If.

[Joe Rogan]

Do you have the footage here?

[Zahi Hawass]

If you can come to my lecture.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, come on. What about right here, right now?

[Zahi Hawass]

I can send it to you.

[Joe Rogan]

Where do you have it? Do you have it on you?

[Zahi Hawass]

In my computer.

[Joe Rogan]

Where's your computer?

[Zahi Hawass]

In Las Vegas.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, fuck.

[Zahi Hawass]

But I can send it to you before.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, but I want to show it on the show.

[Zahi Hawass]

Short. In the show. I can send it to you tomorrow.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay, you can send it tomorrow?

[Zahi Hawass]

Yes.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay, we'll splice it in, folks, then.

[Zahi Hawass]

Tomorrow I will send it to you.

[Joe Rogan]

Please do. Okay, now give me my email. Now give me Jamie's email.

[Zahi Hawass]

Yeah, give me. But you should come. And you. Can you kind of introduce me here in Houston?

[Joe Rogan]

Excuse me? Can I introduce you in Houston? No, I cannot.

[Zahi Hawass]

Why?

[Joe Rogan]

Because I'm very busy.

[Zahi Hawass]

Okay, fine.

[Joe Rogan]

If I'd known in advance, I could.

[Zahi Hawass]

Fine. Yeah, fine, fine.

[Joe Rogan]

I. Unfortunately, I don't have any free time. Zawi.

[Zahi Hawass]

Zahi.

[Joe Rogan]

Zahi.

[Zahi Hawass]

Zahi. Not Zawi.

[Joe Rogan]

Zahi.

[Zahi Hawass]

The. Now, Mr. Hawass, the. Now what we are going to do.

[Joe Rogan]

So this is the only pyramid. Can I ask you, though, this. These hieroglyphics inside this chamber that you've discovered, these are the only hieroglyphics in the Great Pyramid, Is that correct?

[Zahi Hawass]

No. There is. In the five chambers, I told you.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh. In the other chambers, I told you.

[Zahi Hawass]

In the five chambers. Now we have five names of the Genghis who built the pyramids, and we have.

[Joe Rogan]

These are all recent discoveries?

[Zahi Hawass]

Yes.

[Joe Rogan]

Within how long? How recent?

[Zahi Hawass]

The. The. This void as last year, 2024. The hieroglyphic discovery or three months ago.

[Joe Rogan]

So all this is very. Isn't that fascinating that you've been studying the pyramids for so long, but you're still finding things.

[Zahi Hawass]

Listen to me, what I'm going to do.

[Joe Rogan]

What are you going to do?

[Zahi Hawass]

You. There is a friend's friend of mine. His name is Leslie Griffith. Leslie is from Hollywood. He did with me many live TV shows and he did with me chasing mummies. And Leslie now is working to find a network to come. We need to do this program live.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay?

[Zahi Hawass]

I want to show the whole world what I discovered inside the pyramid. That we are not hiding anything. I want to show them the hieroglyphic.

[Joe Rogan]

Why do you always feel like you're in battle with people?

[Zahi Hawass]

Because they attack me.

[Joe Rogan]

Go to the. I understand.

[Zahi Hawass]

I'm not in a battle with people. They are in the battle with me.

[Joe Rogan]

I understand that. I understand that. But I'm giving you an opportunity to just lay things out. You don't have to argue with people that aren't here. I'm not arguing those people.

[Zahi Hawass]

I'm not arguing. I'm just saying telling the people.

[Joe Rogan]

I just. I'm just fascinated by the discovery itself. Okay, so what does it look like, these hieroglyphs? Did you. I know you can read hieroglyphs.

[Zahi Hawass]

Is that science?

[Joe Rogan]

You can read that stuff?

[Zahi Hawass]

Yes, but the signs are not clear.

[Joe Rogan]

It's not clear?

[Zahi Hawass]

No. We need to do more investigation in September.

[Joe Rogan]

Is it a difficulty in seeing inside there?

[Zahi Hawass]

Because, you know, because when the Egyptian write inside the five chambers, for example, they don't write hieroglyphic. They write a cursive hieroglyphic. It's called hieratic. And this hieratic, Joe, it's very difficult to read from outside.

[Joe Rogan]

What does that look like?

[Zahi Hawass]

It's cursive of the hieroglyphic.

[Joe Rogan]

Let me see what that looks like. Jamie, that's fascinating. That's.

[Zahi Hawass]

No, this is hieroglyphic.

[Joe Rogan]

This is hieroglyphic. That's hieroglyphic.

[Zahi Hawass]

We need to talk about hierarchic.

[Joe Rogan]

Right. On the right hand side it says.

[Zahi Hawass]

Exactly. Look at the one on the right. This hieratic. Okay, then. It's very difficult.

[Joe Rogan]

It's so beautiful.

[Zahi Hawass]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

What a beautiful language. Like the way it's written.

[Jamie Vernon]

It looks like art.

[Zahi Hawass]

Then, Joe, what we are going to do before the end of this year, we are going to show what's inside the five. The. This void's life.

[Joe Rogan]

Can you keep that up, Jamie? These. These symbols that look like. Like make that larger, please. These symbols to the far left that were right below Jamie's cursor. Right there. Like what are those supposed to be?

[Zahi Hawass]

They are signs.

[Joe Rogan]

But what does it mean?

[Zahi Hawass]

Look, this.

[Jamie Vernon]

It looks like a device or something.

[Zahi Hawass]

The one down means sish for a determinant of a scribe.

[Joe Rogan]

What is the one that. His curse stop sign.

[Zahi Hawass]

It's for a scribe.

[Joe Rogan]

A scribe?

[Zahi Hawass]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

What does it mean?

[Zahi Hawass]

Scribe?

[Joe Rogan]

It means a scribe. Okay, I understand. So and then the other one on the hieratic that's the cursive version of.

[Zahi Hawass]

Now I don't. I'm not that expert in hieratic.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay.

[Zahi Hawass]

Because hieratic is very cursive.

[Joe Rogan]

I understand, but I think this.

[Zahi Hawass]

But we showing that.

[Joe Rogan]

Right?

[Zahi Hawass]

I know, but we. If you look at the signs in the five chambers that I will send it to you tomorrow, it's very difficult to read, but you can see they are hieratic cursive signs.

[Joe Rogan]

Got it.

[Zahi Hawass]

But the most important that we are going to show this live.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, wow. Okay. So people don't even know and you're going to show all this stuff live.

[Zahi Hawass]

We will do it live. But the other thing, we have another team called scanpyramids team. They are scientists from Japan, France and Egypt. I am the scientific director who really, if they discover something, they come to me, I have to discuss it with them. And they found, you know, the pyramid. You have the entrance that the people use now is the entrance that the.

[Joe Rogan]

Arabs that's in the north face, Correct?

[Zahi Hawass]

Exactly. Above that is a mini chamber.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay.

[Zahi Hawass]

The team are using very sophisticated techniques like ultrasound, infrared. With these techniques you do not need any more to drill. You can really see what's behind the door. And this is really what I'm using right now. Then they came to me and they said behind the main entrance of the pyramid there is a corridor. And they showed to me this corridor clear in the five techniques that they're using. But I told me why I have to see it. Let's go up there. We went up there and they sent an optic camera through the stones and they found I could look at the corridor. Thirty feet long, eight feet wide, topped with chevron shape. I think you can see that in the Internet. The corridor behind the main entrance of the pyramid, can you get it? It's in the Internet, I'm sure.

[Joe Rogan]

This void above the Grand Gallery, the.

[Zahi Hawass]

Size of two trucks, what do you think that is? I have no idea. I'm just telling you what I found. And this was a great pyramid. I did more work on the third pyramid with the same techniques. And the second pyramid, this is the void.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay.

[Zahi Hawass]

Can you see it?

[Joe Rogan]

Wow, that's incredible.

[Zahi Hawass]

And I think. And bring the other big void above the Grand Gallery. I think you'll see it also.

[Joe Rogan]

So find the void above the Grand Gallery, Jamie. So this, it's two trucks.

[Zahi Hawass]

The size of two trucks.

[Joe Rogan]

Size of two semi trucks. And do you have any idea like what the inside.

[Zahi Hawass]

I will tell you about my theory.

[Joe Rogan]

Please do.

[Zahi Hawass]

I think that it's here.

[Joe Rogan]

So that's the void.

[Zahi Hawass]

Yeah, Now.

[Joe Rogan]

And it's that shape, you know, in that direction. So it's at a slope.

[Zahi Hawass]

It's above the grand gallery. That's it.

[Joe Rogan]

That's it.

[Zahi Hawass]

Yeah. The scan pyramid project. Now I tell you my theory.

[Joe Rogan]

Please do.

[Zahi Hawass]

We have a story written in hieroglyphic, but not at the time of Khufu. It's after Khufu. The story, it's written in a papyri, is called Khufu and the magician. It says that Khufu was staying in his palace, and he was very upset. He was not happy. And his son came to him, your majesty, why are you unhappy? He said, I'm searching for the secret of the Gad to the God of wisdom. Then I can design my burial chamber in the pyramid. Then his son told him, I know a magician. His name is Jedi. He knows how to cut the head of a man off and put it back. And he knows the secret of the Gad to the God of wisdom.

[Joe Rogan]

He knows how to cut the head of a man off and put it back. But is the guy still alive? Is that what he's saying?

[Zahi Hawass]

No, this is what the son is telling his father.

[Joe Rogan]

I understand that.

[Zahi Hawass]

That JD can do that.

[Joe Rogan]

A lot of people can cut a guy's head off.

[Zahi Hawass]

But listen to the story. This is the story, okay? Then the king told his son, bring this to me, okay? They describe him as 100 years old, and he drink 1,000 beer. Gide came in front of the king, and Khufu told him, I heard that you can cut the head of a man off. He said, yes, your majesty. He said, do it. He said, jesus said, I cannot do it to the human being. He said, okay, I will bring you a prisoner. JD Said, a prisoner is a human being. Then he told he brought him a goose. He took the head of the goose up in front of everyone, and the head came back, and the goose was running in front of everyone. That's written in the story. Then do you believe that? I come back to what's believed that now, okay? And the king told him, I want to know the secret of the God Tuf to design my burial chamber. He told him that this secret will not be in your hand. It will be in the hand of another people who will rule Egypt. Kufu was very upset, so he wouldn't.

[Joe Rogan]

Give him the secret, because that secret won't just be in your hands. It'll get into other people's hands.

[Zahi Hawass]

Then the king. The king was unhappy. He told them, don't worry, your majesty, because you will rule and your sons and your grandson. Now, about magic.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Zahi Hawass]

Do you believe in religion or not?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Zahi Hawass]

Okay. Do you know about Judaism?

[Joe Rogan]

Sure, a little bit.

[Zahi Hawass]

When God told Moses. When Moses met God, and God told him to go to Egypt to meet the pharaoh. And God told him, remember, the pharaohs are highly in magic. They will beat you. Then God taught Moses how to be more in magic than the pharaoh. And you remember when he heard the stick and the stick became a snake, I think. And Moses brought more snakes to swollen. What the pharaoh did then we know from books from Judaism from the beginning that the ancient Egyptians were really highly in magic. Then we can believe.

[Joe Rogan]

Do you think that that magic might have had something to do with how they constructed the. The pyramids? No. No, you don't. But. But if you believe that they had enough magic to take a goose's head and put it back on, it's still alive. That's magic.

[Zahi Hawass]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Wouldn't they use that magic for other things?

[Zahi Hawass]

But we.

[Joe Rogan]

But if you believe in magic.

[Zahi Hawass]

I do. Of course you do.

[Joe Rogan]

You do believe in magic. So you believe that someone could take someone's head off. Put it back on.

[Zahi Hawass]

It's written.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay. Then it must be true.

[Zahi Hawass]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

All right. Yeah. What is this? Someone's gonna kill a dove?

[Unknown]

It's a magic trick. Can decapitate birds and stuff.

[Zahi Hawass]

Oh, okay.

[Unknown]

Back together. I was just reading it. Apparently in the trick that he did it, he put the head on the other side of the room and made him come back together. He did it to a calf and a different animal also.

[Zahi Hawass]

But now what? Really, I want to tell you now.

[Joe Rogan]

That person's magic too. Maybe that person can make a spirit.

[Zahi Hawass]

Now what I want to show you that I'm not a person.

[Joe Rogan]

What do you think magic is?

[Zahi Hawass]

Magic is magic. What do you mean magic is.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, how does it work?

[Zahi Hawass]

I have no idea. What do you mean by how it works?

[Joe Rogan]

Well, I mean, how does someone do something like that?

[Zahi Hawass]

I have no idea.

[Joe Rogan]

We have to go physically and we.

[Zahi Hawass]

Have to go back. We have to go back and you to five, 4,600 years ago.

[Joe Rogan]

And do you think a lot of this information is what was lost in the burning of the Library of Alexandria?

[Zahi Hawass]

Of course, because this is some of it.

[Joe Rogan]

But they kept unbelievably detailed.

[Zahi Hawass]

But it's still also, you know, because I will tell you why we do not have any evidence about Khufu temples and things like that. Because what happened? The ancient Egyptian believed that a pharaoh should be a male. A pharaoh cannot be a Female. Anyone who changed the religious belief, they hate him. Hats of suit. When she became a pharaoh, they hated her and they destroyed her monuments. Khufu, when he changed his cult to be a sun God in the First Intermediate Period, they destroyed his monuments. The temples, the statues. The only statute of that king was found in Upper Egypt, not at Giza. Even in the temple of his sons, there was 23 statues. They smashed the statues. Smashing was a sign of revenge. Now, do you have any question about Khufu Pyramid before I switch to the Sphinx?

[Joe Rogan]

Well, I'm fascinated by a lot of aspects of Khufu's pyramid. One of the big ones that's come up very recently that I'm sure you're aware of is these satellite radar. Was it called tomograph? What is it called? Tomographic. Where they think that there's these pillars underneath the structure.

[Zahi Hawass]

Okay. I investigated this. First of all, these two scholars from Italy, they have never been in Egypt. They have never worked in the pyramids before.

[Joe Rogan]

Right? They're using satellite information.

[Zahi Hawass]

Number two, they published their article in a journal, this journal, do not send their article to the freeze. You pay a fee to publish the article in your responsibility.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay.

[Zahi Hawass]

Number three, I am not a scientist. I took these techniques that they used and I gave it to expertise. And they said, these techniques cannot show underneath a solid rock of almost 600ft down. No way.

[Joe Rogan]

Why can't they?

[Zahi Hawass]

They said this technique cannot show that.

[Joe Rogan]

But these scientists are saying they can. Do you know about the Osiris shaft? How? They've got a stand.

[Zahi Hawass]

I just covered it.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, you did. Right. But do you know that they use this tomographic.

[Zahi Hawass]

No, no, I am the one who found it. This.

[Joe Rogan]

No, I understand you found it, but they also discovered it. They showed that it exists using the same technique.

[Zahi Hawass]

No, no, this is wrong. This is not true at all. I can tell you how I found that. How can I find that?

[Joe Rogan]

I'm not saying that you didn't find it. It's under the paper. Signature App, aperture, Radar, Doppler tomography by Filippo Bondi. And if you scroll down, Jamie, you'll see an image. And this image is of the Osiris shaft, which shows that they got an accurate depiction of that from space.

[Zahi Hawass]

That's not true.

[Joe Rogan]

It's not true. So what are you saying? That they're lying?

[Zahi Hawass]

They're lying here. They're completely lying.

[Joe Rogan]

But if they're showing, using these techniques, things that we know that you discover that absolutely exist.

[Zahi Hawass]

Now, these techniques, as I told you, scientists said that these techniques cannot show 600ft under the pyramid. The Osiris shaft that they found was only 50ft under the right.

[Joe Rogan]

But it's showing at least for 50ft that this is accurate. What makes you believe those scientists rather than these guys from Italy?

[Zahi Hawass]

Because these. Because the scientists are scientists.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, these are scientists as well.

[Zahi Hawass]

They are not showing their techniques carefully. They have not.

[Joe Rogan]

What do you mean they're not showing their techniques carefully?

[Zahi Hawass]

Take the techniques that they said and show it to any scientist. No one. No one can tell you this is accurate. I asked every person who knows about radar, ultrasound, all the people work with me. The scan pyramid project. They said this is bullshit. It cannot happen at all. Now tell me.

[Joe Rogan]

So you're telling me that these scientists that are proclaiming the capabilities of these satellite tomography devices that are saying that they can see kilometers into the ground with this stuff.

[Zahi Hawass]

That's not true. I did.

[Joe Rogan]

Are you sure?

[Zahi Hawass]

I did.

[Joe Rogan]

Do you understand the technology?

[Zahi Hawass]

No, not me, but I just think other people. I'm scientists who are in this field.

[Joe Rogan]

Have you talked to these scientists that.

[Zahi Hawass]

Are saying that they have these discoveries sent? I made a press release.

[Joe Rogan]

But did you talk to they?

[Zahi Hawass]

I did not. I.

[Joe Rogan]

Why not?

[Zahi Hawass]

Because they did not talk to me. How can I find them? I made.

[Joe Rogan]

Would you be willing to talk?

[Zahi Hawass]

Of course, I am connected to them. Yes.

[Joe Rogan]

Connect you to them. I'm just interested if new technology becomes available and they figure out a way to look into the ground and you discover things. Especially if they discover the Osiris shaft and it turns to.

[Zahi Hawass]

Actually, they did discover the Oziris shaft.

[Jamie Vernon]

Again, you discovered it, but they used.

[Joe Rogan]

Their technology to show an accurate depiction.

[Jamie Vernon]

Of the interior of the Osiris shaft.

[Zahi Hawass]

The Osiris shaft.

[Jamie Vernon]

Is that true?

[Zahi Hawass]

No, it's not the Osiris shaft.

[Joe Rogan]

The images that we showed.

[Zahi Hawass]

The Osiris shaft is known to everyone, Right? It can be seen by.

[Joe Rogan]

When they turn their equipment on the Osiris shaft, it shows the actual interior.

[Zahi Hawass]

Maybe, I don't know. But this is 50ft.

[Joe Rogan]

Let's look at it again.

[Zahi Hawass]

But they took over 600ft.

[Joe Rogan]

I understand, but if it can go 50ft, why can't it go 600ft now?

[Zahi Hawass]

Now I am. Again, I am not a scientist.

[Joe Rogan]

Right?

[Zahi Hawass]

So why are you giving. I gave what they published to a scientist and they said that's not true.

[Joe Rogan]

But scientists are wrong all the time, particularly ones that are biased.

[Zahi Hawass]

Then what I did, I made a press release explaining my point.

[Joe Rogan]

Yes.

[Zahi Hawass]

And I said my work of the second pyramid, that the base of the pyramid is 28ft of solid rock.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Zahi Hawass]

And there is no way that anything can be happened in the solid rock. And I explained, I think what they're.

[Joe Rogan]

Saying is underneath the solid rock. Correct.

[Zahi Hawass]

Let me finish. And I said, your techniques that you published in this magazine is not refreed by scientists. You just published it. And number three, the team that working in Giza with all these new techniques, they said this is wrong. And they know the team that's working.

[Joe Rogan]

In Giza with all these techniques. What do you mean?

[Zahi Hawass]

We have the Scan Pyramid team, right. They're working.

[Joe Rogan]

But you understand this is different technology.

[Zahi Hawass]

I understand, but they know about this technology.

[Joe Rogan]

But have they used this technology?

[Zahi Hawass]

No, they said this technology cannot work, cannot show 600ft under the pyramid at all. This is what they said. And that's why if the Italians were confident they could contact me, I'm the pyramid expert, that anyone should.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, we'll make sure that happens. But listen, if the stone is 20ft thick. Thick, the solid stone at the base. That's correct. Right. And you said osiris shaft is 50ft. That means it can see past 20ft.

[Zahi Hawass]

Right, but how can I.

[Joe Rogan]

So you could see through the stone and see what they're showing.

[Zahi Hawass]

But the Osiris shaft. The Osiris shaft is open, right? It's not covered to see.

[Joe Rogan]

I understand.

[Zahi Hawass]

You can go and you see the oz. Shaft down.

[Joe Rogan]

Everyone can see it, but the interior is not open. And the interior is.

[Zahi Hawass]

But you can see the interior, but.

[Joe Rogan]

You can't see it to the exact dimensions the way these tomographic images showed. Right. If they're using this technology to go 50ft on the ground.

[Zahi Hawass]

Kidding you. I am not a scientist.

[Joe Rogan]

I understand. This is my question all the. Why would you dismiss it if you haven't looked under there?

[Zahi Hawass]

I. Because I told you, it is not me who can dismiss this.

[Joe Rogan]

What does it say, Jimmy?

[Unknown]

This is the link to the art, the original article, I believe there's their names. The very first sentence says that the problem with penetrating action of electromagnetic waves inside solid bodies, the capability to observe these distributed targets is precluded. And then they had to come up with an experimental says experimental results are estimated by processing the SAR images into something else. So I think that's the disconnect. I'm here.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, I. I don't understand the technology. But my question is, we know how spectacular the pyramids are. We know how spectacular, just the base of it, the fact that it's carved into solid rock. Why would you not think that maybe other spectacular Things exist.

[Zahi Hawass]

I am not. I told you, I am not. This type knows about the science. I consulted the team, the top in the world from Japan, France and Egypt.

[Joe Rogan]

Who are these people?

[Zahi Hawass]

They are the Scan Pyramid team.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay, the Scan pyramid? Yeah, the ones that found the chamber above.

[Zahi Hawass]

And they are working with me. And we found many other things in the second pyramid and the third pyramid. And we published this, we just published an article last week. Then what I am saying, if these techniques that these two Italians are correct, the only people who really can tell you it's correct or not are the Scan Pyramid people.

[Joe Rogan]

Not me, but the Scan pyramid people, aren't they using different technologies?

[Zahi Hawass]

But they know about technology. They are the top scientists in the world. I have to believe them, not the two Italians. And if the Italians are really correct, they could come to talk to us. Not me. Well, to talk to me and others.

[Joe Rogan]

I will definitely try to connect you with those people because I know that Graham Hancock and Brian Marescu have been in contact with those people and they're open minded about it. They don't know what's going on down there. But these images are repeated over and over and over again.

[Zahi Hawass]

Fine, but they fascinating either way. Okay.

[Joe Rogan]

The whole. One of the fascinating things about Egypt to me is the fact that it's not just so much more advanced in terms of construction than anywhere else in the world, but that it's still to this day, nothing even close has ever been even attempted to this day. What do you think was going on back then as far as their capabilities and their understanding that led them to do something so spectacular that other people.

[Zahi Hawass]

Again the belief of the afterlife, built Egypt.

[Joe Rogan]

Right. But they also had to have understanding engineering and construction and design to do.

[Zahi Hawass]

This belief of the afterlife to build the pyramid. As I told you, this was the national project of the.

[Joe Rogan]

No, I understand it's a national project, but they have to acknowledge that you.

[Zahi Hawass]

Can talk about this pyramid if it exists alone. When you come to Egypt and you go through time, you will see that everything gradually there is no gap that you can.

[Joe Rogan]

What do you mean by that?

[Zahi Hawass]

There is no gap for anyone to think something different than the belief of the Egyptians?

[Joe Rogan]

Well, I don't think anybody's saying that. Oh, well, maybe some people are, maybe some people do. But I mean it's all the Egyptians. Obviously it was in Egypt. I mean, it's the Egyptians that made it. Yes, pretty obvious. That just seems obvious then if you believe in that.

[Zahi Hawass]

I'm happy, I'm happy to hear this from you.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, well, I Just think whenever people say it's aliens or like, where's the proof of that?

[Zahi Hawass]

Exactly.

[Joe Rogan]

Also, they built a lot of spectacular things. Like no if, ands or buts, just. Just the statues, just the faces of the pharaohs with incredible symmetry.

[Zahi Hawass]

That's why I want. Really I want. Since you are interested in Egypt, we would like to invite you to come to Egypt.

[Joe Rogan]

I want to come. I just. It's for me.

[Zahi Hawass]

We are willing to invite you.

[Joe Rogan]

I'm willing to go.

[Zahi Hawass]

Okay, tell me when and I will arrange everything for you.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay, we'll hook it up.

[Zahi Hawass]

But now I want to come to the Sphinx also. Okay, can we talk about the Sphinx, please? Now? You know, when I was young, I was met by the Edgar Cayce son, the psychic guy. Heunen Cayce and Hurian Cayce was the son of Edgar Cayce. I was young. I really do not know what this case he had when he came to Egypt and talked about me, about his father, you know, about Kidgar Cayce?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Zahi Hawass]

Okay.

[Joe Rogan]

Then he had a vision that there was a chamber underneath the Sphinx's palm.

[Zahi Hawass]

Underneath the right paw of the Sphinx there is a chamber.

[Joe Rogan]

And he envisioned that, correct?

[Zahi Hawass]

Yes. And this is why I'm going to Virginia beach to give a talk. One of the cities in my tour now is Virginia Beach. Why? Because when people began to tell me there is something inside these things, I really. As I told you, I have an open mind. And I did search. I found inside the Sphinx four tunnels. One behind the stele, they call it Dreamy Stele. Between the two balls of the Sphinx and the second one behind the head and the top.

[Joe Rogan]

Right. There's actually a door on the top of the head now. No, no, no, there's a lid.

[Zahi Hawass]

Just a tunnel. A tunnel 25.

[Joe Rogan]

Isn't it closed off though?

[Zahi Hawass]

No. Yeah, it's closed.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, yeah, there's like a door on the top of it.

[Zahi Hawass]

It's not a door. No, a lid. It's just a tunnel.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay, but it's closed off.

[Zahi Hawass]

We, we. It's. You cannot go up to the Sphinx. That's why we have to cover it because it will take rubbish and guards.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, that's the top. That's what I'm talking about. Isn't that the top of it?

[Zahi Hawass]

Is this a thing? Yes, that's it.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay. That's a lid, right?

[Zahi Hawass]

Yeah, we covered it.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay.

[Zahi Hawass]

Yeah, but we covered it. Got it to protect it from the sand. But it's not a door, okay?

[Joe Rogan]

It's a lid.

[Zahi Hawass]

The third tunnel that I found in.

[Joe Rogan]

The Back now, Edgar Cayce, he had this vision that there was some hall of information.

[Zahi Hawass]

But I'm going to come to this now. But I'm talking to you about the tunnels now. And the third one is in the tale. The fourth one was opened in 1927 by a French. His name is Monsieur Barais. And I do have photos of workmen inside the Sphinx. We found these four tunnels are published an article, scientific article. I found in situ in all the four tunnels of Poteri in situ to prove that these tunnels were opened on Dynasty 25, 500 BC as in the late period when the Egyptians saw the Sphinx. They thought there is something hidden underneath. And they dug and they found nothing. Now we come to the Edgar Cayce and what people believe. Because we had John Anthony west and we had many New age people who believe there is something hidden underneath the Sphinx. And they used to tell me we need your permission to what? To drill? I said, how can I let someone who's not an archaeologist, who's not a scientist to drill? No way. But recently I found out the rise of the water table in front of the Sphinx. And I was really afraid that the water could damage the Sphinx. Then I brought a team from Cairo University and we did drill 30 to 35ft underneath the Sphinx. Everywhere. And I do have photos of everywhere under the Sphinx. The Sphinx is a solid rock or a living rock and there is nothing underneath. So there's no tunnels, no tunnels. This is exactly. Okay, I told you what.

[Joe Rogan]

What do you think about Robert Schoch and his theory about the temple and the erosion outside of the Sphinx? That it's water erosion.

[Zahi Hawass]

When Schoch said that, okay, we brought through the American Research Center a scientist from Louisville University. I don't remember his name now. And we gave him what? Robert Schoch. You know what Robert Schoch said? It's not his theory. It's a theory of a New age guy who talked about this before. And John Anthony west brought. I don't remember. Then we gave this guy from Louisville University. He was an Indian American who really studied. He came to the Sphinx and he worked with us for a season. And he came and we published many articles that the erosion that you see outside and inside the Sphinx is from wind and not from water. Now what Schoch want to say that this is dated back 15,000 years ago. I agree. Okay. If I came here and I dug the Sphinx, I will leave something. Then what I did, we dug an area northeast of the Sphinx. I found level Old Kingdom, Middle Kingdom, New Kingdom, Roman, nothing underneath. In this new age, people say that the head of the Sphinx is. Is very small comparing to the body. Yes. Why? If you take all the casing stones away from the Sphinx, you'll find exactly here, the Sphinx and now this. And another part like this. In between there is a hollow. Remember I told you that Giza plateau is divided to three levels. Level one and two is very bad. Stones can be seen to the chest of the Sphinx, level three. They carved the head from level three. Then when the Egyptian carved the head to represent the king Khephren with the copra, the royal head, they began to make a loin. Then what they did, they filled this hollow between the two Sphinx pieces with stones. And they covered the whole body of the Sphinx with stones. And they did the modeling of the loin body on the covering stones. And this is why the head is very small comparing to the body.

[Joe Rogan]

So you think the head was made first and then the body was made later?

[Zahi Hawass]

Exactly.

[Joe Rogan]

If that's the case, why is the body so much more eroded?

[Zahi Hawass]

I told you, the body, it is a part of the bad stones.

[Joe Rogan]

Bad stones.

[Zahi Hawass]

The top one is the head. Exactly.

[Joe Rogan]

So there's a different density to the stones. That's why the stone and the Sphinx's head is intact.

[Zahi Hawass]

And the body, because it's level three.

[Joe Rogan]

So it's a different kind of stone.

[Zahi Hawass]

Exactly. Of the body and this. Why?

[Joe Rogan]

Because there's layers to it all. Some of the layers are more dense.

[Zahi Hawass]

The Egyptian wanted to make a lion body. They couldn't. The only way is to cover the body of stones and do the modeling of the lion body on the covering stones. Can we take two minutes rest?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, sure. You want to take a break?

[Zahi Hawass]

Yes. To go to this bathroom.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay, go to the bathroom. You know where it is?

[Zahi Hawass]

Yes.

[Joe Rogan]

Just go outside, take a left. We're back. The Sphinx. Pick up where we left off. So you were saying that these other experts that looked at it didn't agree that it was water erosion and said that they think that it was wind. So what John Anthony west and what Graham Hancock and what Robert Chalk and all these different people are trying to allude to is that perhaps there was even older stuff that was in Egypt and that the things that you're seeing that are 2,500 BC, those are even more recent than the older stuff. Tell me about Zep Tepi.

[Zahi Hawass]

What's Zep Tepe? What's this?

[Joe Rogan]

You never heard about. Have you heard about. You know about the King's list, right? The old kings list? That goes back 30,000 whatever years.

[Zahi Hawass]

Who said that?

[Joe Rogan]

You never seen. It's not in hieroglyphs.

[Zahi Hawass]

This is not true.

[Joe Rogan]

It's not true. No.

[Zahi Hawass]

This is speculation from people who know nothing about history. There is nothing king list dated back 30,000 years ago at all.

[Joe Rogan]

So why do people keep saying that?

[Zahi Hawass]

Because they don't know speculation. Give me one evidence of that. The only. The first king list dated back to Dynasty 5. Only.

[Joe Rogan]

I was reading that people were saying that it was myth that the kings list. Even though there is like some hieroglyphics of ancient kings, that these are just mythical tales.

[Zahi Hawass]

This is not true. There is no at all. A name that you told me. I never heard of this name. I am an Egyptologist working in Egypt for the last 57 years. I never heard of this king list at all.

[Joe Rogan]

Never.

[Zahi Hawass]

Never.

[Joe Rogan]

He never even heard of it.

[Zahi Hawass]

Why have to hear about it? Because it's not true. I don't want to waste my time in things like this. I am a person. Give me a fact. Tell me what is this?

[Joe Rogan]

Listepi refers to the first time or the first occasion. This is an AI it refers to a mythical golden age of Egypt where gods lived on earth and civilization was in its infancy. This period is often associated with the beginning of creation and the establishment of societal structures. You've never heard of that before?

[Zahi Hawass]

No, and this is not true.

[Joe Rogan]

What do you mean it's not true? I mean this is. I'm getting this off of.

[Zahi Hawass]

It never happened at all.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay, I'm not saying it happened. I'm just saying this is something that's referred to.

[Zahi Hawass]

It's never been. I never heard about is not true. It has not existed at all.

[Joe Rogan]

Even if it doesn't exist, the myth of it exists.

[Zahi Hawass]

I don't listen, Joel. Why do I have to go to a myth of people create stories?

[Joe Rogan]

If you go to Wikipedia.

[Zahi Hawass]

I don't care about Wikipedia.

[Joe Rogan]

I understand.

[Zahi Hawass]

I care about what I see. In my eyes as an archaeologist or.

[Joe Rogan]

A philologist, the world was said to emerge from an infinite lifeless sea. When the sea. When the sun rose for the first time in a distant period known as Zep Tepi. The first occasion different myths attributed to the creation of different gods. The set of eight primordial deities called Ogdoad, the contemplative deity Ptah and the mysterious transcendent God Amun. While describing these different cosmologies completed or competed to some extent in other ways, they were complementary in different aspects of Egyptian understanding of creation. It's the Egyptian creation myth Fine, You've never heard of that before?

[Zahi Hawass]

Never heard of that before.

[Joe Rogan]

That seems strange that you didn't hear about that before.

[Zahi Hawass]

Listen, listen, I've heard of it before. Fine, you can hear about.

[Joe Rogan]

I mean I just found it online.

[Zahi Hawass]

It's a new age theory.

[Joe Rogan]

It's new age, yes.

[Zahi Hawass]

Listen to me. I know and any Egyptologist who study Egyptology in the States. Here you have universities in UCLA and you have Berkeley and you have Johns Hopkins and you have every. There is no every Egyptologist here study languages and archaeology. No one can answer what you are talking about. This is hallucination. I'm sorry, this is not true. It's speculation from people. But never in Egypt. We know the prehistory of Egypt. We know the pre dynastic of Egypt. We know the beginning of civilization. We know every. There is no gap in anything that can lead some things like that. And that's why I never heard of it. And I don't want to hear about it.

[Joe Rogan]

You don't want to hear about it?

[Zahi Hawass]

No. Why? Because there is no evidence. I am a scientist. I believe on what's written in front of me and I believe of a scene that I can see. But I don't believe on theories like this. Tell me where is this found and where it is and who published it? What is the scientist who published it? What is the Egyptologist who talked about it?

[Joe Rogan]

I'd like to know. That's why I'm asking you.

[Zahi Hawass]

I never heard of it.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, I'm shocked that you haven't at least heard of it and dismissed it.

[Zahi Hawass]

Before.

[Joe Rogan]

Because it's just. I think it's a part of the creation myth.

[Zahi Hawass]

I know, but it's not true. I received many theories every day. My mind jo now is really cannot stand all these theories, all of it. It's too much for me. It's too much for me.

[Joe Rogan]

Got it. See if you can find anything on that. Jamie, where. Where that myth came from. Yeah. Is it a Bhaval thing?

[Unknown]

What I just found is that it came from a.

[Zahi Hawass]

Who is Bofal. Boufal is not a scientist.

[Joe Rogan]

No, I'm just.

[Zahi Hawass]

Yeah, I know those people. Yanni, when someone came to you with a theory, he has to have an Egyptology background. He has to write a scientific article. We write all what we discover. We write articles about them for people to read and criticize and give us opinion. But I can go to theories like this. I understand that has no basis.

[Joe Rogan]

What do you base the dates on? Do you base it on carbon isotopes?

[Zahi Hawass]

No, we don't we base dating on the evidence that we discover?

[Joe Rogan]

Right. But it is based on carbon, right?

[Zahi Hawass]

No, I don't believe in carbon date 14 at all.

[Joe Rogan]

You don't?

[Zahi Hawass]

No. Carbon date 14 never given accurate dating. And that's why I believe you know, when you discover something, if you discover asymmetry.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Zahi Hawass]

There is two type of datings. One called absolute dating, means that in this cemetery you have a name of a king. And a date means this is absolute. But if you discover another cemetery and has no dates, then the best thing that we do is to find the artifacts in this symmetry and try to compare it with other dated cemetery. And you give a date for this.

[Joe Rogan]

But you don't believe in carbon.

[Zahi Hawass]

I don't believe in carbon 14 at all. And it's not working in Egypt. Until today. I have been excavating. I'm excavating also in the Valley of the Kings. And I discovered major important things that we can talk about.

[Joe Rogan]

So if you're going back to the.

[Zahi Hawass]

But I used radar. Radar in all my excavation. What do you mean? And I never had a result by radar and carbon date 14. We people use it when there is no date.

[Joe Rogan]

Wait a minute. You use radar to date things how?

[Zahi Hawass]

No, I use radar to discover things.

[Joe Rogan]

Right, but what do you use to date them?

[Zahi Hawass]

Dating. As I told you, two methods of dating. Most of the dating that for me now in Luxor is based on evidence. Like I discovered the Golden City. It's a major big, large cemetery, large settlement, a city. And you know, this city was chosen the most important discovery in the world of year 2021, because this is the first time that we have a big, large city to tell us about the people who made this civilization.

[Joe Rogan]

So how do you know how old.

[Zahi Hawass]

The city is exactly? In the city, we discovered the names everywhere of King Amenhotep I, who was the father of Akhenaten. Inside the city, we found many statutes of his queen, Queen T. We found inscriptions about dried meat stored to celebrate the third set festival of amenhartb iii. We found nine royal workshops. Then the city tells us about the golden age of that king. It is dated by pottery, by hieroglyphic inscription, by many things.

[Joe Rogan]

But I'm curious as to why you're skeptical about carbon dating. Because I think carbon dating is generally accepted as being accurate within a certain framework.

[Zahi Hawass]

It is, but I never used it, and many people fled it air used in Egypt. Because in Egypt mainly we have absolute chronology. We have absolute dating based on inscriptions.

[Joe Rogan]

Right. But I thought it was Used in Egypt, like to measure wood that was in mortar to date the Great Pyramid to 2,500 BC?

[Zahi Hawass]

No, that was an experiment to date the pyramid, I think was about 2009. And it's not working. But I didn't see the result.

[Joe Rogan]

You haven't seen a result on carbon testing of the mortar of the Great Pyramid?

[Zahi Hawass]

No, but the mortar, you can't. One thing, the mortar between the stones. This mortar. Like if you take a piece of stone from the pyramid and you try to take carbon 14, this piece of stone could be thousands of years in the quarry. It cannot date a pyramid. How can you date.

[Joe Rogan]

Hold on, hold on. You don't date stone.

[Zahi Hawass]

I'm saying if you date mortar.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay.

[Zahi Hawass]

How can you say accurately that this mortar is dated to the same time of building the pyramid?

[Joe Rogan]

Well, you can actually, that's the argument is that there's probably repairs done. Right.

[Zahi Hawass]

Of the pyramid?

[Joe Rogan]

Yes.

[Zahi Hawass]

No, of the Great Pyramid. There is no evidence of any restoration.

[Joe Rogan]

No restoration, Nothing.

[Zahi Hawass]

Never any accurate evidence that the pyramid was restored. In any period of the Egyptian history.

[Joe Rogan]

There is restoration that goes on even now, though. On the Sphinx. Correct.

[Zahi Hawass]

I did make 10 years of restoration on the Sphinx. It's me who did the restoration of the Sphinx for 10 years.

[Joe Rogan]

Why did you decide to do that?

[Zahi Hawass]

Because the Sphinx. When I left, I was studying in the States. I came to take my doctorate from University of Pennsylvania from 1980. From 80 to 87, some architect and archaeologists were really stupid. They began to restore the Sphinx and they took all the casing stones of the Sphinx out and they put modern stones and they used cement. You cannot use cement in the restoration. You can use cement in building a house.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, that's not even restoration. This is a new creation.

[Zahi Hawass]

When I came, I stopped this restoration, okay? And few, because this restoration damaged completely the proportions of the Sphinx. It brings to you another Sphinx, right? Ugly.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Zahi Hawass]

Few months later, there was a stone was restored in the. In the shoulder of the Sphinx and it fell down in February. It was raining. And always people use the Sphinx for politics.

[Joe Rogan]

The Sphinx for politics?

[Zahi Hawass]

Yeah, if they want. I tell you, it happened the first time in the Pharaonic period, you know, the area beside the Sphinx was called the Valley of Gazelles. And the princes of the New Kingdom used to come to hunt wild animals in the valley and come to worship the Sphinx. And this story that I'm telling you is written in a granite stele, is called the Dream Stele. Located now between the two poles of the Sphinx. In the stele it says that Thutmose IV was a prince. And he came to have a nap beside the Sphinx. And the Sphinx came to him in dream and told him, My son, if you remove the sand away, I will make you the king of Egypt. Then he moved the sand and he came to a temple. He found a door.

[Joe Rogan]

What year was this?

[Zahi Hawass]

This is 3,000 years ago. Exactly.

[Joe Rogan]

So the Sphinx was constructed long before then, before the old kingdom. And it had been covered in sand?

[Zahi Hawass]

Yes, completely. This is why Herodotus, the father of history. When he came to Egypt in the middle of the 5th century BC he never talked about the Sphinx. Because completely under the sand. Then what? Tutmo the force came. He took the sand away. And he found that the old kingdom casing blocks are falling down. He put them back and he went to the Sphinx, a temple nearby. He took this granite stele as a door. And he wrote this story in it. But we found there is something politics in that story. He killed his elder brother, who was supposed to be the king of Egypt. And he wrote this story to tell the Egyptian that the God Horus of the horizon. It shows me to be the king of Egypt. They will forget the crime that he did when that stone it fell down. In 1988, a big fight happened between the head of antiquities and the Minister of Culture. Ended by firing the head of antiquities. It's politics.

[Joe Rogan]

I see.

[Zahi Hawass]

I stayed 10 years. When people ask me about the best thing that I did in my life, I say two things. Number one, that I restored the Sphinx. I brought the proportion of the Sphinx back. And I restored the oldest pyramid in Egypt, the steep pyramid. It was falling down in 14 years. I made major important conservation and restoration. And I tell people, why do I have to fight all the time about the age of the pyramids? We have to fight, we have to cooperate, all of us to restore this bodience. And the most important thing is for me always is conservation. And I dedicate most of my life not only to the excavation, but to conservation.

[Joe Rogan]

What do you think the arguments are that predate that try to push the date back of the construction of the pyramids?

[Zahi Hawass]

I never heard of this.

[Joe Rogan]

You've never heard of this before?

[Zahi Hawass]

It's only new. It's a theories from the new age.

[Joe Rogan]

But I know I saw a debate with you. I saw a debate with you and Graham Hancock.

[Zahi Hawass]

And there was another archaeologist that was.

[Joe Rogan]

Hold on, hold on. The other archaeologist was saying, if you're saying that something happened 10,000 years ago. Where is the evidence of any civilization from 10,000 years ago.

[Zahi Hawass]

Exactly.

[Joe Rogan]

But then you found Gobekli Tepe. So? Gobekli Tepe was buried over 11,000 years ago.

[Zahi Hawass]

That's not true. I never heard about this.

[Joe Rogan]

What do you mean it's not true? What I told you what is not true?

[Zahi Hawass]

It's never happened. We never discovered this at all.

[Joe Rogan]

Wait a minute. Gobekli Tepe is in Turkey, okay?

[Zahi Hawass]

Oh, in Turkey?

[Joe Rogan]

Yes, Gobekli Tepe is in Turkey. More than 11,000 years old. It's very complex stone structures. Fine, fine, but this was the evidence. Hold on. This is the evidence in the argument. The argument was there was no evidence of an ancient civilization from 10,000 plus years ago. This is before the discovery of Gobekli Tepe. Gobekli Tepe gets discovered, known to be more than 11,000 years ago. That changes everything. Because now we know. Yes, it does.

[Zahi Hawass]

That's because.

[Joe Rogan]

Hold on. Because now we know there was an advanced civilization capable of a spectacular construction 11,000 plus years ago.

[Zahi Hawass]

This is what. Listen, look at the archaeologists in, in Turkey or in any civilization, okay? They, they never talk about old civilization.

[Joe Rogan]

That's not true. Gobekli Tepe is universally accepted as being more than 11,000 years old.

[Zahi Hawass]

I am talking now about Egypt. I'm not.

[Joe Rogan]

No, I understand, but the argument was that there was never any ancient civilization capable of spectacular construction 10,000 years ago. Now that they showed Gobekli Tepe is more than 11,000 years old, they know for sure that's not true.

[Zahi Hawass]

Okay, but now I'm talking about the pyramids of Egypt. I have the evidence, the written. We found everything about that. We know the dating and I gave you hundreds of evidence that this pyramid built by Khufu are gifted by.

[Joe Rogan]

No, I'm not saying it wasn't. I'm not saying it wasn't.

[Zahi Hawass]

What I'm saying is any civilization older.

[Joe Rogan]

Than we know older is still in the same spot.

[Zahi Hawass]

How old does it go back? We have no evidence.

[Joe Rogan]

So how does ancient Egypt emerge?

[Zahi Hawass]

Emerge. We have.

[Joe Rogan]

How does it emerge and go from zero to pyramids?

[Zahi Hawass]

Okay, we have. Do you have. Can you listen to me?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Zahi Hawass]

We have prehistoric Egypt, right? And we have the old Stone Age, Middle Stone age Neolithic when the Egyptian began to know about agriculture and they began to live together and communities. Then after that we came to the pre dynastic when a king called Narmer in dynasty zero, he began to make unification of the upper and lower Egypt. Until one king called Mina or Horaha who united completely.

[Joe Rogan]

And what year was this?

[Zahi Hawass]

This is War was 3,000 B.C. 5,000 years ago, in a place called Abydos, they built huge mud brick tombs. Huge from mud brick, no stones. And these tombs are created in a site called Abydos.

[Joe Rogan]

You know what's really fascinating about this is that 500 years, you think about that. How different, just modern civilization was 500 years ago. 500 years ago, we had almost none of the inventions we have today. We had no internal combustion engine, you know, no hardened steel, none of the things that we have. And now look what we have with electronics. Now imagine what the Egyptians were able to do in 500 years on a different, in a different way, in construction with stone. That their advancements weren't like our advancements, but their advancements were equally spectacular, just in a different way.

[Zahi Hawass]

Okay, now I come back to the mud brick structure. This is in Dynasty 1 and 2. On Dynasty 3 came a king called Dzoser. He had a genius architect. His name is Imhotep. I am searching. Did you hear about Imhotep before? Yes. Okay, I'm searching for his tomb. Only two weeks ago, before I came, I made a major important discovery in Egypt. I found a tomb of a son of a king. Inside incredible statues of Dzoser and his father and his queens and his children.

[Joe Rogan]

Where is this tomb?

[Zahi Hawass]

In the shadow of the step pyramid, in the shadow of Djoser. And this really made me. Because I have been searching for the tomb of Imhotep most of my life. But the area that I found this tomb, it was under houses, modern houses.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, wow.

[Zahi Hawass]

The workmen who work in the site, 100 years ago, they built houses in the site, but they never excavated what's underneath the houses.

[Joe Rogan]

Wow. So modern houses. Underneath it is an ancient tomb.

[Zahi Hawass]

Six months ago, we gave houses to these people in another area and we demolished these houses and we found underneath. Major discoveries. This discovery will be in today's show this week. Now I am sure now that Imhotep's tomb is in this area.

[Joe Rogan]

Wow.

[Zahi Hawass]

Now I come back.

[Joe Rogan]

What technology can you use to discover these underground caverns and chambers?

[Zahi Hawass]

All what I do is digging.

[Joe Rogan]

That's it.

[Zahi Hawass]

That's it.

[Joe Rogan]

What if these Italian guys are onto something? You can find more stuff.

[Zahi Hawass]

I want you to come to see what I do. And what I discovered, I want, I.

[Joe Rogan]

Want to Italians too.

[Zahi Hawass]

And what I discover, I can show it to you.

[Joe Rogan]

Please do. Jamie Zep Tepe. Did you find anything about that? About that? Where? The origins of that?

[Unknown]

Maybe a book from 1960 and I couldn't figure out how he got there.

[Joe Rogan]

It's probably a long Sludge through information, try to get to the root of it.

[Zahi Hawass]

Yeah, but can we continue with what how it happened until you have the pyramids?

[Joe Rogan]

Sure.

[Zahi Hawass]

Then Imhotep came and he built the same mastaba. Mastaba in Arabic means a bench. He built the construction in mud brick of stone for the first time. And he added more section to the first one. And he put above that five mastabas. It's called the step pyramid. Yeah, in the pyramid text.

[Joe Rogan]

That's the first one.

[Zahi Hawass]

In the pyramid text they say that the step pyramid is a stairs that the king is buried underneath to go to heaven.

[Joe Rogan]

And this one was how many years before the Great Pyramid?

[Zahi Hawass]

It's almost. Almost 700 years.

[Joe Rogan]

So obviously it's not nearly as sophisticated as the Great pyramid. So in 700 years they just got way better at it.

[Zahi Hawass]

Listen, now on Dynasty 3 there is another pyramid was found. And only I found recently that I did not excavate it completely. I found a pyramid which is the end of dynasty three of a king called Honi. Then now we came to.

[Joe Rogan]

His Name is Honi.

[Zahi Hawass]

Honi. Honi.

[Joe Rogan]

HonI.

[Zahi Hawass]

H U N I.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay.

[Zahi Hawass]

Then we come to Dynasty four, Seneffro, okay. Had a genius architect. His name was Nefermaat. Then he started.

[Joe Rogan]

Sounds like a good name for a genius.

[Zahi Hawass]

Yeah. He started to build a step pyramid like this in a site called Meidum. But for a reason we do not know, he left it unfinished. And he went to a place called Dahshur. He built the pyramid was a huge angle and he changed the angle, it became bent. And he built another pyramid. If you look at the other pyramid of the father of Khufu, it exactly equal to the Great Pyramid. This is the first true pyramid. But people never go to the shore to look at this pyramid. People always look at Khufu. Then you have in Dynasty 4 the pyramids were huge because of the quality of the stones. In Dynasty 5 and 6, there is no good quality of stones. Then the Egyptians made decrease on the volume of the stones and did increase in the volume of the or reliefs. Timbers began to be decorated with scenes for the first time in the Middle Kingdom. Another trend mud brick pyramid. But underneath maze corridors of stones that if you go down, you will lose your way. In the New Kingdom, they came in the top of the Valley of the Kings a shape of the pyramid and they buried all the kings like King Tut and others underneath the pyramid shape.

[Joe Rogan]

So that's the story.

[Zahi Hawass]

That's the story.

[Joe Rogan]

All right. But listen, man, it's been fascinating talking to you and I. I definitely am going to take you up in your offer, and I'm definitely going to go to Egypt.

[Zahi Hawass]

No, now we'll talk.

[Joe Rogan]

Now we'll talk.

[Zahi Hawass]

We'll talk to.

[Joe Rogan]

Send me a video so we can splice it in of the hieroglyphs that are on the wall. We'll send that, right?

[Zahi Hawass]

I will send it tomorrow. Okay, but give me. Give the email to Greg, you and Mustafa now.

[Joe Rogan]

We will do that.

[Zahi Hawass]

And they are the people that will talk to them now to arrange for your trip.

[Joe Rogan]

Okay.

[Zahi Hawass]

And I will invite you for a good.

[Joe Rogan]

How many days do you think I should go?

[Zahi Hawass]

10 days, at least.

[Joe Rogan]

Jamie, you gotta come. You want to do a podcast from there, just you and me?

[Zahi Hawass]

Let us do one inside the Great pyramid.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, definitely. 100%.

[Zahi Hawass]

Okay.

[Unknown]

Will it be echoey, though?

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, here's another problem with the idea that these Italians are proposing. Isn't there a water table under the the pyramid that's like a million years old? No, there's not water underneath there?

[Zahi Hawass]

No. This is the Ozira shaft that was full of water.

[Joe Rogan]

So is that what Mr. Beast was swimming in?

[Zahi Hawass]

Exactly.

[Joe Rogan]

But where's that water coming from?

[Zahi Hawass]

It's a water taper.

[Joe Rogan]

There is a water table.

[Zahi Hawass]

This shaft. This shaft. I came, I brought a company, and we did suck all the water out until he found underneath a sarcophagus and four pillars.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, wow.

[Zahi Hawass]

And this is the symbolic barrier of the God Osiris, because Giza Plateau was called in the new kingdom per usr Nebrasta, the house of Osiris, Lord of Rostow. Rastau means symmetry, but literally means the underground tunnels that Osiris is ruling. Then Herodotus, when he came, he talked about this water under the pyramid. It is in the shaft. And this when Beast entered inside and.

[Joe Rogan]

Swam in it swimming. Okay.

[Zahi Hawass]

You know, I met him because I wanted to convince the young people that pyramids were not built by aliens. This is why I took him to three years.

[Joe Rogan]

I don't know. I don't understand the alien thing. I think super advanced culture, super advanced civilization. The Library of Alexandria burning is probably one of the greatest disasters.

[Zahi Hawass]

Many people in America believe that you believe in aliens. When I talk to them, that I'm coming to see you, that I believe in aliens. They do.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, I'm not opposed to the idea of aliens existing. There's hundreds of billions of galaxies in the known universe, each with hundreds of billions of stars. The idea that we're uniquely alone. You don't think there's anything out there? Nothing. So you don't believe in ancient civilizations capable of advanced construction? You don't believe in aliens?

[Zahi Hawass]

I am a scientist. If you believe in something, write an article. Then I can read, but don't give me a theory.

[Joe Rogan]

But the theory, planets containing intelligent life is.

[Zahi Hawass]

No, that's not true. I have been debating Graham Hancock and Robert Bafal and John Antonovist, and I told them from the beginning, your theory will go with the wind.

[Joe Rogan]

Right. But we're not talking about that theory. We're talking about aliens being possible.

[Zahi Hawass]

No way.

[Joe Rogan]

No aliens, just us.

[Zahi Hawass]

This is the national universe. If you believe in us, in the.

[Joe Rogan]

Whole universe, only us, if you believe.

[Zahi Hawass]

In God, you will do miracles. The Egyptian believed in the afterlife, and they made this great civilization.

[Joe Rogan]

I'm not saying aliens made it. I'm saying it's very possible there's something else out there in the world.

[Zahi Hawass]

Thank you.

[Joe Rogan]

All right. Thank you. All right. Goodbye, everybody.

[Zahi Hawass]

Enjoyed talking to you.

[Joe Rogan]

I enjoyed it, too. And I'll see you in the video. Bye, everybody. Sam.