Podcast Summary: The Joe Rogan Experience #2338 - Beth Shapiro

Host: Joe Rogan
Guest: Beth Shapiro, Chief Science Officer at Colossal
Release Date: June 17, 2025
Description: In this episode, comedian and podcast host Joe Rogan converses with Beth Shapiro, a leading scientist in the field of ancient DNA and de-extinction projects. They delve into Beth's fascinating journey from broadcast journalism to pioneering genetic research, her adventures in Siberia, and the ethical implications of bringing extinct species back to life.

1. Introduction to Beth Shapiro

Joe Rogan welcomes Beth Shapiro, expressing his admiration for her work at Colossal, particularly the creation of direwolves.

[00:17] Beth Shapiro: "I'm a scientist. I work in a crazy field called ancient DNA, sometimes called paleogenomics."

2. Transition from Journalism to Science

Beth shares her unconventional career path, initially aspiring to be a broadcast journalist before discovering her passion for science through a geology and archaeology program.

[03:05] Beth Shapiro: "I was convinced that this is what I wanted to do with my career... And I just kind of got sucked into being the scientist."

3. Exploring Ancient DNA

She explains the complexities of working with ancient DNA, highlighting the challenges of extracting degraded genetic material and the significance of modern technologies like PCR (Polymerase Chain Reaction) in advancing her research.

[32:55] Beth Shapiro: "He discovered a way to photocopy DNA, DNA to make lots of copies of the same thing, which then made it possible to learn the sequence using the technologies of the day."

4. Field Expeditions in Siberia

Beth recounts her expeditions to Siberia, detailing the harsh conditions, relentless mosquitoes, and the cultural encounters with indigenous communities like the Dolgon people.

[07:10] Beth Shapiro: "So the first time I went, it was for a meeting, and I spent some time in Moscow first... There are so many mosquitoes."

5. De-extinction Projects at Colossal

The conversation shifts to Colossal's ambitious projects, including the creation of direwolves using ancient DNA. Beth describes the meticulous process of identifying genetic traits that define extinct species and engineering them into living counterparts.

[32:27] Beth Shapiro: "But they are dire wolves because we have manipulated the DNA of gray wolves... What makes a dire wolf a dire wolf."

6. Ethical and Conservation Implications

Beth addresses the ethical considerations of de-extinction, emphasizing Colossal's commitment to conservation rather than indiscriminate rewilding. She discusses the importance of controlled environments and the potential benefits for biodiversity.

[81:07] Beth Shapiro: "So it was really cool, because this captive breeding population was established with just a few founder individuals... It's what we're trying to do with our red wolf project."

7. Species Concepts and Hybridization

The discussion delves into the fluidity of species definitions, using examples like the interbreeding of polar bears and brown bears, as well as domestic dogs and wolves. Beth highlights how ancient DNA has reshaped our understanding of human evolution and species boundaries.

[83:42] Joe Rogan: "But it is quite fascinating to think that in the future dumb people will not exist."
[85:02] Beth Shapiro: "But all of the contamination. So. We're in a way drawing back on the species concept and what we should think about species going forward."

8. Human Impact on Ecosystems

Beth and Joe discuss the unintended consequences of human interventions, such as the introduction of Burmese pythons in Florida and the historical near-miss of introducing hippos to Louisiana. They explore how these actions disrupt existing ecosystems.

[53:32] Beth Shapiro: "What are they doing about that?"
[54:22] Joe Rogan: "There’s an estimate of a half a million. They think there might be a half a million there."

9. Academic Gatekeeping and Innovation

Beth criticizes the gatekeeping within academia, arguing that negativity and scarcity mindsets stifle scientific innovation. She emphasizes the need for open-mindedness to fully harness genetic technologies for conservation and de-extinction.

[100:01] Beth Shapiro: "It's the negativity and it's this scarcity mindset that if, if they do this, then we can't do this... It's not the way we innovate."

10. Future of De-extinction and Conservation

Looking ahead, Beth outlines Colossal's future projects, including plans to resurrect species like the woolly mammoth and the Tasmanian tiger. She underscores the importance of responsible genetic editing and the potential for these technologies to aid in biodiversity preservation.

[135:05] Beth Shapiro: "We have DNA from, from lots of different animals. So you know, you never know."

11. Addressing Criticisms and Skepticism

Joe brings up common criticisms of de-extinction, such as the notion that engineered direwolves are mere hybrids rather than true replicas. Beth counters by explaining the precision of their genetic engineering and the distinct traits that define the resurrected species.

[82:09] Beth Shapiro: "They are dire wolves because we have manipulated the DNA of gray wolves... And that coat, the light coat color that you see was something that we absolutely could not have known without the ancient DNA."

12. Closing Remarks

Joe and Beth wrap up the discussion by reflecting on the broader implications of genetic technologies, the importance of thoughtful conservation efforts, and the exciting future of biotechnology in shaping ecosystems.

[174:21] Beth Shapiro: "We've figured out how to learn DNA sequences from the past and actually transform that into an animal that's bigger than a gray wolf."

Notable Quotes

• Beth Shapiro [00:29]: "We go out into the world, we dig shit up and we extract DNA from it. And what is fantastic about that is it's being a modern day explorer."

• Beth Shapiro [06:53]: "We ended up on this boat that was two hours late. It was warm and hot, and there are so many mosquitoes."

• Joe Rogan [03:05]: "Beth, you just followed your fascination, which is the best advice anyone could ever get."

• Beth Shapiro [37:39]: "So far, there are 2-5% Neanderthal DNA in our genomes. If you could put together all the Neanderthal DNA sequences from people alive today, we could reconstruct about 93% of the Neanderthal genome."

• Beth Shapiro [100:25]: "We're just trying to do things in a way that leverages our ability to fix things that we've already messed up, using these biotechnologies responsibly."

Key Takeaways

1. Pioneering Work in Ancient DNA: Beth Shapiro has significantly advanced the field of paleogenomics, overcoming challenges related to degraded and contaminated DNA to unlock the secrets of extinct species.

2. De-extinction for Conservation: Colossal's approach to de-extinction is rooted in conservation, aiming to restore biodiversity and ecological balance rather than simply recreating extinct species for novelty.

3. Ethical Responsibilities: The responsibility of wielding powerful genetic technologies is emphasized, with careful consideration given to the ecological impacts and ethical implications of reintroducing species to the wild.

4. Redefining Species and Hybridization: Traditional species concepts are being reevaluated in light of genetic evidence, revealing complex interbreeding patterns that blur the lines between distinct species.

5. Overcoming Academic Gatekeeping: Beth advocates for a more open and innovative scientific community, free from the negativity and gatekeeping that often hinder groundbreaking research.

6. Future Prospects: The future holds immense possibilities in biotechnology, from resurrecting mammoths and direwolves to engineering genetically resilient species that can thrive amidst changing ecosystems.

Book Mentioned:
Life as We Made It: How 50,000 Years of Human Innovation Refined and Redefined Nature by Beth Shapiro. Beth also performed the audiobook version, offering a personal and engaging narration of her experiences and insights.

Note: This summary captures the essence of the conversation between Joe Rogan and Beth Shapiro, highlighting the transformative potential of ancient DNA research and de-extinction projects in shaping our understanding of biology and conservation.