#2350 - Ryan Callaghan

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Joe Rogan Experience #2350 - Ryan Callahan

Episode Information:

• Title: The Joe Rogan Experience
• Host: Joe Rogan
• Guest: Ryan Callahan
• Release Date: July 16, 2025
• Description: In this episode, Joe Rogan and Ryan Callahan delve deep into the critical issue of public land sales in the United States, exploring the political battles, conservation efforts, and the broader implications for American society.

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1. The Battle Against Public Land Sales

[00:12 – 01:23]

Joe Rogan opens the discussion with Ryan Callahan addressing a significant political victory: the prevention of a large-scale public land sale, often referred to as the "big beautiful bill."

Ryan Callahan:
"We brought you in here. Hopefully we were gonna kill that public land sale deal... And we did it before we even got you in here." [00:21]

Despite this win, both acknowledge that the fight is far from over, emphasizing the resilience needed to protect public lands.

2. Importance and Uniqueness of U.S. Public Lands

[01:23 – 04:44]

Ryan underscores the unparalleled value of America's public lands, highlighting their significance not just for recreation but also for essential ecological functions like water purification.

Ryan Callahan:
"Our public lands, what they did when they set that up, not just national parks, but all the public lands, we created this insane resource... and it's all of ours." [01:23]

Joe elaborates on the extensive ecosystem services these lands provide, such as maintaining water tables and supporting biodiversity.

3. Decline of Grasslands and Ecosystem Threats

[04:44 – 07:46]

Joe brings attention to the alarming loss of America's grasslands, which are critical for ecological balance. He details the factors contributing to this decline, including development and invasive tree species encroachment.

Joe Rogan:
"We're losing 2 million acres a year. It's the most threatened ecosystem, not just in the U.S. but on the entire planet." [04:44]

Ryan expresses surprise at the scale of the loss, emphasizing the vastness of U.S. land and the impact of losing even a fraction of it annually.

4. Political Maneuvering and Key Figures

[07:46 – 17:36]

The conversation shifts to the political strategies employed to push public land sales, focusing on Senator Mike Lee's role. Joe criticizes Lee's long-standing agenda to privatize public lands, highlighting the manipulation within the budget reconciliation process.

Joe Rogan:
"Mike Lee is like the figurehead of this right now. He's on the record saying, we're gonna sell everything." [13:43]

Ryan questions the motivations behind such political moves, hinting at ideological influences and the broader implications for land ownership.

5. Legal Battles and Corner Crossing Issues

[17:36 – 33:53]

Joe and Ryan delve into specific legal challenges, notably the concept of "corner crossing," where minuscule private land corners impede access to vast public expanses. They discuss ongoing court cases and the absurdity of enforcing trespassing over mere inches.

Ryan Callahan:
"You could legitimately do it in a hop, so you would never have stepped foot at all." [32:39]

Joe recounts efforts to support legal cases against such restrictive measures, emphasizing community solidarity in preserving land access.

6. Social Media, Bots, and Public Perception

[33:53 – 122:22]

A significant portion of the episode addresses the role of social media in shaping public opinion. Both hosts express frustration over bot-driven narratives that distort consensus on public land issues. They highlight the challenges of combating misinformation and the psychological toll of hostile online interactions.

Joe Rogan:
"It's a trash pit." [121:36]

Ryan emphasizes the prevalence of bots in amplifying divisive topics, advocating for focusing on authentic community engagement rather than getting bogged down by toxic online discourse.

7. Conservation Efforts and Future Strategies

[34:28 – 85:07]

The hosts discuss ongoing conservation initiatives, such as the Lesser Prairie Chicken Landowner Alliance, which seeks to protect vulnerable species through collaborative efforts between ranchers and conservationists. They highlight successful hunts and preservation projects that balance ecological needs with agricultural practices.

Ryan Callahan:
"Private philanthropic dollars... to connect a bunch of private land and Bureau of Land Management land into one contiguous chunk." [44:38]

Joe shares personal anecdotes about hunting trips and conservation successes, illustrating the practical steps being taken to maintain and restore natural habitats.

8. The Future of Public Lands and Advocacy

[85:07 – 134:20]

In the concluding segments, Joe and Ryan reflect on the importance of continued advocacy and public involvement in legislative processes. They stress the necessity of political unity, transparency, and persistent grassroots efforts to safeguard public lands from future threats.

Joe Rogan:
"We need to stay unified. ... Public persistence... is literally saving public lands." [126:53]

Ryan echoes this sentiment, urging listeners to remain vigilant and proactive in their support for conservation efforts.

Ryan Callahan:
"You can actually make a difference in this country." [103:11]

---

Notable Quotes:

• Ryan Callahan:
  "Keep it, it should go to every person that lives on the planet." [98:34]

• Joe Rogan:
  "The whole business of selling off public land is short-sighted. We have to protect these lands because their value only goes up." [98:32]

• Joe Rogan:
  "Public lands freedom. You are divesting the American people of the ability to be free." [122:22]

---

Conclusion

Episode #2350 of The Joe Rogan Experience with Ryan Callahan offers a comprehensive exploration of the ongoing struggle to preserve America's public lands. Through passionate dialogue, the hosts illuminate the ecological, political, and social dimensions of land conservation, emphasizing the critical need for unified action and informed advocacy. For listeners unfamiliar with the episode, this summary provides a detailed roadmap of the discussions, underlining the importance of safeguarding these invaluable natural resources for future generations.

Transcript

[Joe Rogan]

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. The Joe Rogan experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.

[Ryan Callahan]

All right. Brian Callahan, ladies and gentlemen. We brought you in here. Hopefully we were gonna kill that public land sale deal.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

From the big beautiful bill.

[Joe Rogan]

And we did it.

[Ryan Callahan]

We did it before we even got you in here.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, I mean, we're not out of the woods yet. No. Is the reality. Yeah. I mean, we're. I. I was hoping that you and I were gonna. We're gonna team up and tee off on these sons of. And watch it die together.

[Ryan Callahan]

That would have been ideal, I think. It's dead.

[Joe Rogan]

It's. It is dead. It is dead. But we're a long way from this stuff being dead. Ever dead ever. Yeah, right, Exactly.

[Ryan Callahan]

It's got to be dead forever. That's not. It's not theirs to sell. It's very unique to the United States. It's an amazing thing that we have. And I don't think people in other countries understand this. I don't think people in America even understand how unique it is. Like, our public lands, what. What they did when they set that up, not just national parks, but all the public lands, we created this insane resource, this beautiful resource where we can go into the mountains, into the woods, and. And enjoy nature. And it's ours. It's. It's all of ours.

[Joe Rogan]

And I get, I mean, the amount of response from listeners that live outside the country, and to a person, they're like, are you guys really going to screw this up? They're like, yeah. How. How do people not know? How do people not appreciate what you guys have? Don't turn into this country or this country or this country. Basically any other country outside of Canada and the U.S. i think the real.

[Ryan Callahan]

Issue is the people in America that don't experience it and don't go there and don't know how insanely unique this situation is. Like, I don't know how to say Chamath's last name. Polyhoptia. Is that how you say it? Even he was tweeting, this is a great deal. Sell the land and, you know, we'll make some money. Like, what the are you talking about, man? Like, you know, you don't understand, like, that. This. This was an incredible gift that they gave us when they set America up this way.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, yeah. And. And it's not that they need to go out and experience. They can also understand just where food comes from. Right. How. How we get cold water and fresh water in our taps. That public resource is working on our behalf. 24, 7 3, 365. Always has been and always will be, as long as we don't screw it up. Right. So it's not just the recreational part of it. It is, I mean it is no different than, if you want to think of it in these terms, than some, you know, one arm jack pumping oil out of the ground. Like it is constantly working on our behalf. And being public land needs to be intact, an intact ecosystem to do its job. And there's less and less of it every year. So like for instance, right, Like America's grasslands. We are losing 2 million acres. And grasslands are kind of like a catch all phrase a little bit, but it'd be like sagebrush ecosystem, short grass prairie, mixed grass prairie. But we're losing 2 million acres a year. It's the most threatened ecosystem, not just in the U.S. but in the entire planet. And people are like, it's just grass. How are we losing that development, really? Well, there's development, but also encroachment of tree species. So cedars, junipers, stuff like that, working their way back out on to the prairie, to the plain. And we used to have all these natural deforesters out there, bison that wouldn't allow those trees to grow because they like rubbing up on stuff and they'll destroy them. So you know, millions of bison out there physically removing or preventing that tree encroachment onto the plane. Those trees are sucking water out of the ground, making it more arid and more dry. Water table goes down, you lose a lot of species diversification. And people just do not know, Joe. They just don't know. And they look at it and they're like, it's just grass.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah. I never knew that it was 2 million acres a year. How many acres in the United States?

[Joe Rogan]

About 2.23 billion acres in the U.S.

[Ryan Callahan]

So that, that's a lot. Like 2 million acres a year is a lot.

[Joe Rogan]

2 million acres a year is, is a lot. And like I was hacking on Jamie for his golf swing, right? We got about.

[Ryan Callahan]

He's got a solid golf swing. You better leave him alone.

[Joe Rogan]

All I got is the golf swing.

[Ryan Callahan]

Leave him alone. He could, he could swing. Jamie, what's the longest drive you've ever. I've hit it over. I mean, 310, whatever. Three or five. That's legit as. But I've done it. That's legit, right? I don't play golf, but I, I think that's pretty legit.

[Joe Rogan]

What's like nodding my head because I'm like Yeah, I have no idea. Three hundreds set someone up to hit.

[Ryan Callahan]

Over 600 yards before.

[Joe Rogan]

But wow, that's like, with the wind and the elevation. And elevation helps a lot.

[Ryan Callahan]

Right. Like Montana or something. I could hit it 400 yards in Montana. Really?

[Joe Rogan]

I have on the simulator. Oh.

[Ryan Callahan]

Oh, that's interesting. Simulator. Oh, the simulator accounts for that.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

But you don't have to dodge bears on the simulator.

[Joe Rogan]

Two million acres of golf courses in the U.S. is there 2 million acres?

[Ryan Callahan]

Okay, so that's a good way to look at it. Like, all the golf courses in the United States get lost every year in grassland.

[Joe Rogan]

Exactly.

[Ryan Callahan]

Wow.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

Wow. That's a good way to put it. Right?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. Yeah. And so we talk in as far as, like, the public estate, right. We have 640 million acres is the number that you hear all the time. 83 million of those are national parks. But thanks to the great state of Alaska, you can hunt inside the boundary of some national parks up there to the tune of about like, 43 million acres. Big, big chunks. Right. Um, and then you, you know, remove a little for structures, roads. You know, you have over 400,000 miles of road on Forest Service and BLM ground. Wow. I mean, it's a lot. A lot. Right. And then when we get into, like, talking about, like, the budgeting of things like blm, Forest Service, they're maintaining a lot of stuff that people take for granted. And then, you know, so we're down to like 580 million acres of what I would consider, like, usable. And then you consider what those acres can actually produce. Right. Which, you know, if you go to a super arid state, you need a lot more land to support, like, mammal ungulate type life than you do in a state that's got a lot more water. Yeah. That's growing a lot of. A lot of food and a smaller amount of space. Right. So to make things palatable for people, we're always doing the work of, like, dumbing things down. Dumbing down the messaging and. Yeah, you're right. Like, people don't know. They don't know because we try to distill things into, like, all public land.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Right. But it is so diverse, which is what makes it amazing. And that diversity provides all this opportunity. And one of the things that people need to keep in mind is we have nothing but bad examples. All these other countries have gone the complete opposite way of what we have now. And one of America's largest exports is hunters. Like, we. We send hunters all over the world to support these other economies and what we have here at home is insanely valuable. And it just becomes more and more valuable because we have large intact ecosystems that you just more and more cannot find anywhere else. Right?

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah. And I just, I wish more people appreciated it. I wish more people experienced it. There's just too many people that just are landlocked. I mean, what I mean by landlocked, I mean in cities. Urban locked is probably the best term for it. There's just too many people that just don't go out. They don't, they don't know how amazing it is. It's like I always say that it's, it's like a vitamin that you didn't know you needed. You know, you get out into the real wild, the real woods. It's a, it's a, it's some kind of a nutrient that you didn't know you needed.

[Joe Rogan]

America's beverage companies are investing in America.

[Ryan Callahan]

We're American companies making American products with.

[Joe Rogan]

American workers in America's hometowns. We're local bottlers and manufacturers operating in.

[Ryan Callahan]

All 50 states, employing more than 275,000Americans in good paying jobs delivering for the nation because we believe in the promise of America and the people who make it great.

[Joe Rogan]

Learn [e-mail] paid for by the American Beverage Association.

[Ryan Callahan]

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[Joe Rogan]

Man, I was just up on, went up to the Arctic. Went up to Arctic National Wildlife Refuge to check that place out. And 24 hours of sun, right? Land in the midnight sun. Never gets dark. And I was the only person on that trip who didn't bring like some sort of an eye cover to sleep with. And, and I just can't tell you like how hard and good I slept up there, like really even without all over myself. And it's just Clean air and lots of space, man. It was magical. Magical.

[Ryan Callahan]

How do you sleep with no eye cover?

[Joe Rogan]

I swear to God, Joe, man, when it was time to go to bed, and it started out like bed was at 10:30 and then bed was at 2:30 in the morning, and then bed was 3:00am because you would get as that sun's kind of like making this low orbit. I'm sure you've seen, like, the time lapses of the sun, like, kind of does a little dip.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

You get this, like, hazy, gorgeous light that you just wanted to stay up and, and see. But I'd close my eyes and. And I could see, like, the sun going down to darkness and in my brain, because it was just time to go to bed. It was really bizarre. And then if I had to wake up for something, it was bright light and I couldn't figure out why. Yeah, but I mean, it was so cathartic, man. Like, we've been running so hard, and because of this public lands battle that we've been in, I think most people are like, oh, God, it just popped up last week and then we crushed it. And big win. And a little larger group of people or smaller group of people is like, oh, it started in the house about six weeks ago. And then there's a real small group of people who are like, August 24th, the state of Utah submitted a lawsuit for the United States supreme court to take 18 and a half million acres of BLM land in Utah. August 2024 is when we were like, oh, my God, we got to be on top of this. This is what's coming. Trump's going to win the election. It's going to set all these things up, and we're going to be in this fight. And people were like, I don't even know why you're talking about this. This isn't a big deal. I'm like, oh, it is a big deal. This is happening.

[Ryan Callahan]

Well, it's such a slippery slope, too. This is what people don't know or don't appreciate. If you say, oh, it's only like 1 million acres, we'll sell off 1 million acres. It'll help fix the debt. No, it's not. The debt's $37 trillion. It's. You're not going to fix the debt by selling off public land. And if you open up that slippery slope to these vampire developers, they're going to keep doing it. They're going to keep sucking on that blood until there's nothing left, until it's just the national parks oh, we preserved Yellowstone. Oh, great.

[Joe Rogan]

And that quite literally, it, you know, like, Mike Lee is like the figurehead of this right now. He's on the record saying, we're gonna sell everything. We need to sell everything. That's the plan. We're gonna retain the national parks and maybe a couple other things. Like. And he's been on the record for damn near 20 years saying this stuff.

[Ryan Callahan]

What is. Who's paying him?

[Joe Rogan]

There's a lot. There's a lot there. Right. Like, where he grew up in Utah, there's a lot of, like.

[Ryan Callahan]

Well, that's where Chapet is from, right?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

And he was the. He was the guy we were fighting a few years ago.

[Joe Rogan]

Exactly.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

I mean, that's exactly why I dug this shirt out, Joe.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah, I got one of those somewhere.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. I wore this shirt on your show the last time this was happening.

[Ryan Callahan]

Oh, yeah, right. That's right. It was happening back then. That was like, what, five years ago?

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, I mean, you're still in California. I mean, it was five years ago.

[Ryan Callahan]

I moved here, so it had to be six or seven years ago.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, exactly. Right. And it's just. It's cyclical.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And I swear to God, people didn't pay attention. This Utah lawsuit. We were. I went back to D.C. for, you know, Steve's on the board for Teddy Roosevelt Conservation Partnership, trcp. They have a. A policy meeting that I tried to go to twice, two or three times a year. And where I was in there with all these people that are super smart and went to school for all this stuff. And a couple of us were like, why is nobody. Why is nobody talking about this? Why is nobody concerned about this? And then this idea of selling public lands got really conflated with, like, oh, my God, if you talk about anything that's going on with the federal government, you're anti Trump. And it was just this ultra politicized hot potato. We're like, no, no, no. Public lands. They're for everybody. Like, this is a nonpartisan thing. We've been talking about it since August. Here's this lawsuit. Like, they're selling land that belongs to everybody. Doesn't matter what state you're in. And then, like, the next domino fell, and a bunch of states and counties signed on an amicus brief for that Utah lawsuit, which is like, a friend of the court filing, because they wanted to get in, like, stuff's going up for free or cheap fire sale. They wanted to be in on it. And then the next domino fell, which was, oh, Mike Lee's getting pulled into the White House and he's cutting deals, and we know exactly what's on his mind. And it was literally just like this opening in the world where Nobody's talking about 18 and a half million acres. So what if we started talking about 200 million acres or 500 million acres, and it just like, totally kicked the door open to this whole enchilada fire sale? And had the dude not been as greedy, people may not have gotten as fired up about it, but, you know, kind of thank God he did.

[Ryan Callahan]

So who's paying him, Man?

[Joe Rogan]

I think, and I'm not an expert on this, there's. There's some, like, real ideology here, like Mormon church ideology. You know, there's like a billion people in the Mormon Church, so not everybody thinks, like, there's a billion. I don't know what the number is. There's a lot. It's. Wasn't it, like the. The most fastest growing religion there for a while?

[Ryan Callahan]

Is it because you get extra chicks? What is the deal?

[Joe Rogan]

There's a lot of pretty people. There's a lot of pretty people, man. That's a hook for sure.

[Ryan Callahan]

Well, I have a friend who lives in Salt Lake, and he said that, like, they'll literally send hot girls to try to recruit people.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

Like, they knock on your door and they're hot.

[Joe Rogan]

I mean, I can't blame them for going with what works, right?

[Ryan Callahan]

I mean, also, in terms of, like, it's a weird religion, right? Because here. What's the number here? 17 million global members.

[Joe Rogan]

Global members.

[Ryan Callahan]

Global. 17 million. So you were off by a few hundred.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. A few hundred million. Yeah, yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

In 2024, they reached a 27 year high. Wow. Significant surge in convert baptisms in 2024. I wonder what those hot girls going door to door.

[Joe Rogan]

But there's a nicest people.

[Ryan Callahan]

They are the fucking nicest. Mormons are the nicest. I had a few neighbors that were Mormons when I lived in California. They're my favorite people. Like, out of all the people in a weirdo religion.

[Joe Rogan]

Absolutely.

[Ryan Callahan]

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[Joe Rogan]

I got asked. I was fishing down in Louisiana, super grumpy old fishing guide, and he's like, hey, Calham, what do you think about Muslims? And I kind of put the fly rod down for a second, and I.

[Ryan Callahan]

Was like, where are we going? Where we going with this?

[Joe Rogan]

I was like, like, all of them? Yeah, I think there's a lot of Muslims, bud. Like, all of them. I'm like, what do you think about Louisianans? Like, all of them. Right, right. I'm like, come on.

[Ryan Callahan]

How are you gonna do that?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, what. I'm sure there's some really good ones, and I'm sure there's some real bad ones and everything in between.

[Ryan Callahan]

Like all humans?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, kind of like all humans. So on the. The Mormon Church side of things, there's, you know, there's some doctrine, some church doctrine that says that the land is put here for the benefit of the people. And you're basically. And I'm very much paraphrasing here. You're. You're spiting God if you're not developing that land for profit. Like, for. For the profit of the people. And so there is a strong theory that Mike Lee is.

[Ryan Callahan]

Is he Mormon?

[Joe Rogan]

Yes. Is so indoctrinated into this part of the church that this is like his divine mission.

[Ryan Callahan]

That's a problem.

[Joe Rogan]

Right. And so it. Yeah, I mean, it's really religious zealotry. Yeah, I was not aware of that. And so. But again, like, that doesn't have to be representative of the entire religion. And to the people that I hang out with that are Mormon, it's absolutely not. Right. They. They're like public lands that are set aside for multiple use. Don't get locked up, don't get developed in certain ways, are the best thing. Right, But. And this is something that just, like, has got to get talked about. Mike Lee is, like, very much in power. He is the chair. He's a senior senator. He is the chair of the Energy and Natural Resources Committee in the Senate. And like I said, he starts getting drug into the White House, he starts consolidating power, and he starts telling everybody, hey, I'm going to put this amendment in and you better not go against it or else for the next six years, which is technical. As long as Republicans stay in power, he's not going to lose his chairmanship of the Energy and Natural Resources Committee. As long as he's there, none of their stuff is going to be read because it's the chair that decides what they're going to review what they're going to look at and what they're going to pass. So here's this dude who is leveraging everything for his personal thing, and he had his shot and he took it. And fortunately, people started cluing in and there was enough of an on ramp that there was a blowback. Literally in every, every state, all 50 states, people wrote in to first their representatives, then their senators, and it created enough of a, oh, my God, this is going to set back the entire big beautiful bill. This is only one part of the dumpster fire that is the big beautiful bill. But it's gonna take this whole thing off the tracks, and that's, that's why it's killed. Now, Lee issued a statement which is like a gut shot if you're in my position, who've been like, tracking this thing, you know, since August. And, you know, it said, oh, I listened to the American people. Right? Well, he rewrote the language. He and his team, his staff rewrote the language four different times to get it passed the Senate parliamentarian. It did pass. And you don't do that if you're listening to the American people. Right? The American people, by the end of this, were very united in saying not one acre. It started as not one acre in the budget reconciliation process, which is, you know, part of what they're doing here in the big beautiful bill, or is what they're doing and the, the phrasing there really matters. Right? Like we have systems in place for land sales, legal framework, those, both of those, you know, it's ACronyms, government acronyms, Flipma, Flitna. And the revenues from land sales go back into acquiring land of greater value. There's all these acts since 1781, all of these acts for the disposal of federally managed land. And, and that. Those two that I named are, are the, the most recent. And they're designed to maybe not retain the same acreage, but provide the most value to the American people. And what Lee was doing in this reconciliation process was completely circumventing that. And as you mentioned, like, nobody, no, no citizen in the United States is going to feel any change from dumping a hundred million dollars into the federal treasury right now. And that's where the money was going.

[Ryan Callahan]

So, so going forward in the future, how do we make sure that this never happens again? Do we have to just keep doing this every few years when it comes up?

[Joe Rogan]

You. Well, yeah, I mean, and that's, that's the, like, the, the best thing that could have come out of this, like we are going to make, we made this huge stink, right, from all the different buckets that politicians pay attention to, right. All the different user groups, Democrats, Republicans, Independents, everybody came together and more than likely a shitload of people. The 36% of Americans who didn't vote in the last election probably chose to speak up, some large percentage of them and said no public land sales. Hopefully that created enough of. You know, what they call in Washington is like a third rail issue. It's like, doesn't matter what side of the aisle you're on, you can't have this as part of your agenda because you're going to get shot down. Right? That's, that's like the, the near term win because that feeling won't last forever.

[Ryan Callahan]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

There's a piece of legislation out of Ryan Zinke's office, who's our Montana congressman, and he was actually started as Secretary of the Interior under Trump in his first term. Zinke has this Public Lands and Public Hands act and it would not have prevented what just happened, this budget reconciliation thing, but it does put some more guardrails around the sale of federally managed land, and that would be like a really positive thing. However, just like I explained, like Mike Lee's position in the Senate, it would have to get through him. Like, it's got, he's got to be circumvented. There's no way he's going to vote for something like this. And it's got to go through the House. And everything I've heard about in on the House committees is there's some people there that don't want to see this thing happen. So more people are signing on to the Public Lands and Public Hands act, which is awesome show of support. Senator Heinrich out of New Mexico's got it written for the Senate. No Republican co sponsors. He needs Republican co sponsors in the Senate just to get the ball rolling there. But we still have like these knuckleheads that are saying, if you didn't vote for my thing, I won't let a single good thing happen for the next six years that goes, you know, provided they don't get removed somehow, some way.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah, there's. So it's really interesting when you see these bills because these bills are like, I think they read the entire bill on the floor and it took 14 hours and no one was there. They just read it to an empty audience because nobody sat around for 14 hours. So what was it, 900 pages?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

Just like, who's. How are you signing off on things That I know you're not reading. Like, how crazy is that? That this is a part of our process of government is that they pass these bills that have all sorts of weird piled into them, good things and bad things all together, and you have to figure out, like, how much of the bad stuff do you allow because you want the good stuff, and they all have to make these weird, shady deals.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, I mean, I got that text, the official text, you know, essentially as soon as it came out. And public land sales were page 202. So I just went straight to page 202 and read through the new language to see what. Because it was another revision by Mike Lee to see if he could get that thing passed. Um, it was just typical crap, like, he's not listening to anybody. He's still pushing his agenda.

[Ryan Callahan]

So when he revised it, what were the revisions and why did he put those revisions in?

[Joe Rogan]

So he started at US Forest Service land and BLM land, which would be.

[Ryan Callahan]

How many acres all told?

[Joe Rogan]

Well, it would have been a possible, like, 500 million acres area in 11 Western states. And I want to say it would have been 2 to 3 million acres actually sold within five years. So you're identifying out of 500 million, then you're narrowing it down to 2 to 3 million acres of Forest Service and BLM land. And then, you know, he says it's for housing. It's for housing.

[Ryan Callahan]

But a lot of that is nowhere near development.

[Joe Rogan]

A lot of it's nowhere near development. And the language of the text, even on the very last revision, where he's supposed to be listening to American peoples, and he did throw in the word hunters there. Hunters. I'm listening to you. It. It says, like, bullet point one must be near existing infrastructure. And then bullet point number seven, I think it was. Was like. Or very hard. Far away and hard to manage. Right.

[Ryan Callahan]

Which is all the rest.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. So like, somewhere in between here.

[Ryan Callahan]

That's so crazy. That's such a crazy piece of language. Or far away and hard to manage. So all of it.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, exactly. Like, it just.

[Ryan Callahan]

It's so vague.

[Joe Rogan]

He wants to get it through. And then there's super fun language in, too, where it's like, okay, right. If your first refusal is going to be state, then local government through tribes in there. And then the only other group would have been land owners within the checkerboard pattern. How we have, like that, you know, grid system of federal land ownership and. And private land ownership. Those landowners could also purchase more than anybody else would have been allowed to purchase. So state Local, then your tribes and local landowners. So basically like a huge handout to, you know, like, you know, the corner crossing case that we've been talking about. Right. Iron Bar holdings, they would have just purchased all those checkerboard pieces and would.

[Ryan Callahan]

Have been legally allowed to do corner crossing to people. So what corner crossing is, is like say if there's an enormous piece of public land, but the only way you can get to it is to cross over a very small corner of private land. For the longest time that was prohibited. And you would get arrested.

[Joe Rogan]

You could. Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

You get arrested for trespassing.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

And we're talking about like a couple of feet.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, not. I mean, not. We're talking about something so small you can't even possibly see it. Right. That's, that's why it's been. It's like a theory. Right. It's. It's like for all the physics majors out there. Right. It's like that game of like, well, how do you get someplace if you only go 50 of the way? Right. You'll. You keep going 50 and 50 and 50. It's like a theory. Whereas in reality, like all it is is a footstep.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Like you're gonna cross that corner in a footstep. And we know where corners come together because it's right here. But that theory thing is like, well, the. And then the airspace all the way down to the center of the earth and to the heavens is how it's written.

[Ryan Callahan]

The crazy thing is like you could legitimately do it in a hop, so you would never have stepped foot at all.

[Joe Rogan]

My 97 year old grandma who's hooked up to an oxygen tank could have stepped across like, I mean, it's. We're not talking about a feat.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah. We're not talking about like a football field that you have to cross.

[Joe Rogan]

No, no.

[Ryan Callahan]

We're talking about like a couple inches.

[Joe Rogan]

Yep. So just like.

[Ryan Callahan]

So nuts.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, it's. It's infuriating is what it is. So just like on your, your checkerboard at home, pick any four corners that come together where the two reds, imagine those are public and the two blacks are private.

[Ryan Callahan]

Here it is.

[Joe Rogan]

There you go.

[Ryan Callahan]

Explain it right there. So those little tiny spots in the corner you were not supposed to cross.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Ryan Callahan]

Which is so crazy.

[Joe Rogan]

Yes.

[Ryan Callahan]

That is so bananas. That, that was a real issue.

[Joe Rogan]

Exactly.

[Ryan Callahan]

And look at this. No trespassing.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. And so that's really interesting.

[Ryan Callahan]

That's the corner right there.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

Is that nuts? Like that little spot. No trespassing. That little tiny Gate is all you need. Those two posts that are in the ground, those two signs to prevent people from accessing land that's theirs. So that is where the corner is.

[Joe Rogan]

Yep.

[Ryan Callahan]

So if you go through that little thing, that little area right there, you're breaking the law, which is insane.

[Joe Rogan]

And now currently in the state of Wyoming, and I got to give a shout out to Wyoming backcountry hunters and anglers for. For having the. The spine, the backbone to bring this, help bring the people who were caught and prosecuted for Corner Crossing, you know, and support them financially. We did a ton at Meat Eater too, to help that legal case. It went to the state court, then the Supreme Court, and then the ninth district court. And the last I heard is Iron Bar now wants to take it to, you know, the Supreme Court of the United States SCOTUS and have. Which is ultimately really good. We always joke that we're going to send Ol Fred Eshelman, the owner of Iron Bar, like a public landowner T shirt because he's going to make this stuff public for everybody because it's going to be. Right now there's only two federal cases that have defined Corner Crossing. They're both in favor of the people of the United States. So you can legally step across. Shocking, I know. From one piece of public to the next piece of public. And then if and when this thing makes it to the Supreme Court. The only reason he hasn't filed is because of this stuff with Mike Lee. Right. It would have solved all of his problems. He would have just purchased those checkerboard pieces of BLM land within his ranch boundaries and just been done with it.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah, right.

[Joe Rogan]

And that's a really. There's a lot of those pieces in a lot of states and states actually fund the ability to trespass for hunting on a lot of those landlocked pieces in.

[Ryan Callahan]

To create easements.

[Joe Rogan]

Yep, exactly. Yeah, but. And you know, but it's typically done through like the state wildlife agencies where you get an easement so people can go out there as if you got a conservation license. You can go hunt out there.

[Ryan Callahan]

This is an advertisement from BetterHelp. Stress in the workplace is becoming an issue around the world. Did you know that 60% of the global workforce has reported experiencing higher than normal levels of stress? So it's more important than ever that we learn to take some time for ourselves. Plan a nice long holiday this summer. Go hiking, read a book, play video games. I found that even a few minutes of meditation can help. Another great option is, is therapy. Everyone can benefit from it. And it's arguably one of the better long term solutions to stress. Therapy can teach you how to positively cope and manage anxiety while improving your self confidence and self awareness. It can be very empowering. And thanks to better help, therapy is becoming more and more convenient. All it takes is a few clicks to join a session. You can also join from anywhere, whether you're at the beach, on your vacation or at home after a grueling day of work. Plus, as the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise. Our listeners get 10% off their first [e-mail] jre that's better. H E L P.com jre well, it's, it's also today I could imagine how a long time ago you would get a lot of confusion and it would lead to people trespassing accidentally on public land or on private land rather, because we're looking at maps, you know, and people would be, you know, 100 yards to the left, 100 yards to the right and maybe not good navigators.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

But now when you have things like like on Go Hunt, Onx, Spartan Forge, all these apps that hunters use now that use GPS, you're 100 accurate. Yeah, like 1.

[Joe Rogan]

A lot of the law enforcement agencies are using those same things so they can be on the same page as the, the hunter or Access seeker or whatever you want to say.

[Ryan Callahan]

Super easy to follow.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

There's no worries at all about encroaching on private land.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. And, and also it's like what's the harm? Right. Like when you sue somebody, you have to establish what, what the impact is, what the harm is. And in, in these cases that went to the supreme courts, they're like, well, what, what are the damages?

[Ryan Callahan]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

Explain to me what the damages are. Right, right. And they really can't. Right.

[Ryan Callahan]

There's no damages. They just don't want hunters on their property. People that have a lot of land for whatever reason, I guess it's how they acquire a lot of land in the first place. A lot of them are fucking greedy.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, there's some greedy in a weird way, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

But that's a greedy thing. Like, you know, you have 800 acres and there's this like little sliver.

[Joe Rogan]

You're like, no, can't have that.

[Ryan Callahan]

Mine. I know mine.

[Joe Rogan]

And, and then, I mean there's absolutely wonderful humans on the spectrum. Oh yeah. This dude that I, I grew up with, we guided on, on parts of his place Growing up, right when I got my first ever gps and the Onyx was a. A card that you inserted into your gps. He used to come pick me up so I could open the gates for him. And then he'd just BS and it was amazing. And we'd drive all over eastern Montana, all on his property. And. And his name was Leo Sol. Leo Sol. And. And we came up to this fence line, and I was like, it's like, leo, did you know that this brand new fence is a hundred feet on your side of the property line? And this was a. A whole section. Right. So it ran for a mile. And. And he goes, ryan can't own the whole world. And just didn't say another thing about it. Like, not worth me worrying about.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah. Well, how much. How many acres did he have?

[Joe Rogan]

Like 30,000, probably.

[Ryan Callahan]

That's a rational gentleman.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, exactly. Right, exactly.

[Ryan Callahan]

But somebody up. But there's people.

[Joe Rogan]

There's people on the other side, too, you know, and that's like that old rancher mentality of, like, you know what? There's going to be a fire, and we're all gonna need to get together and help each other out, and maybe I'll talk to him then about it or, you know, whatever. Calving season, harvest season, all the things that bring those communities together, these very independent people, they got to work together at different times of the year. And that's like kind of a beautiful thing. You can only be so much of a dick. Right, right, right. But then there's that other side now, where it's like, I'm gonna patrol my property from Florida via drone.

[Ryan Callahan]

Oh, God.

[Joe Rogan]

And I'm gonna hot dial the sheriff's department anytime I see anything that looks like stepping over that property line. Right. Whether it's to fix a fence that I'm not there to fix or get your cattle off of my property, I'm calling the sheriff. Oh, and that. That exists, too.

[Ryan Callahan]

Sure.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And those. It's that community breakdown, which is horrifying to me. But also, man, like, people don't understand the jobs that these lands do. Right. And like, you're saying, like, the urban folks, where that state comes from, where their groceries come from, it's not the grocery store. Like, there should be an instructional video before you can enter the. The supermarket, you know, because it takes space. It takes this land. And we think. People think in terms of like, oh, a million's a big number. Let's say we do have 640 million acres of public land. Right. Well, there's like, 1.2 billion acres of land in the U.S. set aside specifically for agriculture. And I think some like private timberland falls in that too. Right. So that's, that's private land. 1.2 billion where the bulk of our food's coming off. Ideally on the public land side of the fence. We have grazing leases so you can run cattle and sheep on. On public ground. You pay a minimal, I would say a very minimal fee for that. Right. And it's based out of. Off of an animal on that ground for a month. Animal unit month. Aum. And on our public ground, that's like a dollar. I want to say it's a $35 per animal unit month. And just in the state of Montana, it just got dropped again, but it hit as high as $24 animal unit month. So if you have those federal leases, it's a big thing that you want to protect too. Right. So you have to in theory, show that stewardship aspect out there on the, on the public land because everybody can come check it out to retain your ability to keep running cattle out there, sheep or whatever it is.

[Ryan Callahan]

What, what is going on with that American prairie Savannah. Yeah, the American prairie thing.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. So that's in the home state of Montana. You know, I wish.

[Ryan Callahan]

Explain that to people.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, yeah. So basically the fear is it's going to be a privatized national park that people aren't going to be able to go out on. Well, I don't think that's true. It might be. Explain what I think it is.

[Ryan Callahan]

Explain what it is.

[Joe Rogan]

It is a bunch of private philanthropic dollars, a lot of which is coming from overseas. I think the, the Dutch have somehow some way dumped a bunch of cash in there. And it is to connect a bunch of private land and Bureau of Land Management land out there, blm into one contiguous chunk of. Remove as many fences as he can and allow that chunk of prairie to basically revert back to its natural state. With natural species. The American buffalo being like, they're, they're, they're big goal species. Right. They're raising, they've done an incredible job raising cash to get this done. They're. They're purchasing these places, they would say at fair market value. There's a big argument there because they have so much money. They're. They're going to win a bidding process. So is it really fair would. Is what the, the local ranchers would say. But right now, and knock on wood, for as long as they exist, they're going to keep providing public access and they have a really Good public access program. So they can work with the state of Montana for our private land public access program where, you know, you can sign up either at just like a kiosk type deal, sign in box and walk out on their place. But then they have like yurts that you can rent and they.

[Ryan Callahan]

So the kiosk is just, it's just set up as you get there and you, you just put in your name and what time you go in there. And do you have to have any kind of ID that you put in there? Nothing?

[Joe Rogan]

No, no. I mean, the state of Montana want to ask for your license plate number and your, your home address and phone number and that's it. So. And then it's. I mean, they have a lot of gorgeous ground, honestly. You know, when we did our, our big float in Montana.

[Ryan Callahan]

Mm.

[Joe Rogan]

They own some of that property now that, that runs right up to the Missouri. Right there around Cow island is kind of where we took out real close to there. And they own, I mean, they own some of the stuff that we hiked around on.

[Ryan Callahan]

Oh, wow.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. Yeah. But their, their, their vision is to have this big contiguous chunk and have it run like, you know, pre European civilization here on the North American continent.

[Ryan Callahan]

Wow.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. Yeah. And it's, I mean, it's gorgeous stuff. And they, they provide for some buffalo hunts out there. So you can draw a tag and go out and shoot a yearling or an old bull and they give you. It's not like a hand hold thing.

[Ryan Callahan]

When they say an old bull.

[Joe Rogan]

How do you determine just by sheer size.

[Ryan Callahan]

Just size.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

So you have to be experienced, you have to know what you're doing.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. And they'll, they'll give you some, some classes and some pointers, but they don't hold your hand and say, hey, come shoot this one. It's like, here's this information, return it when you're done. Rules the ranch, all that stuff. Go through this gate, enjoy it, leave it how you found it type of thing. So. And, and I've, I've never done it myself, but people have had really fantastic experiences out there doing that. And obviously that's an absolute shitload of meat, right?

[Ryan Callahan]

Oh, yeah. And if they do that widespread, like, what is the ultimate goal? Like, how much land are we talking about? And like, are they bringing animals in or are they allowing the existing animals to breed and like, how are they doing it?

[Joe Rogan]

So yes to allowing the existing animals to breed and yes to bringing the animals in. So they're coming out of the, I think the Yellowstone population More than anything. And then they work with the. The local tribes up there to kind of bring those animals in. And some go to the tribe, and then some go stay on the prairie, I think is how it goes. And then the reason that they're allowing for these old bulls to be shot is because they're. No. They're no longer breeding.

[Ryan Callahan]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

It's interesting. Have you. You ever read Dan Flores's piece on American buffalo?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

Buffalo diplomacy? Was it buffalo ecology, Buffalo diplomacy?

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, I read the American Serengeti.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah. That's great, too. What his theory is, and I think it's valid that the time where they saw millions of buffalo was because the Native Americans had been wiped out by disease. This is the idea, is that there was never a time where there were that many bison.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

And that the reason why there were that many bison was because the Native Americans weren't hunting them anymore, because they were. 90% of them were wiped out by disease. That's why when they, you know, made their way across and I guess it was like the early 1800s.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, like Lewis and Clark.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah. When they saw millions and millions of bison.

[Joe Rogan]

The reason for that was that human predator population was. Was in a trough.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah, exactly.

[Joe Rogan]

And it allowed the. The bison to be in a spike. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

Because we completely makes sense.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, it totally makes sense. Yeah. Because. Yeah, we always have those conversations about, like, when would be the best time to go back if you could. Right. And. And also, how could it be that that big total buffalo population number that always gets thrown out there was really on the landscape.

[Ryan Callahan]

Right. Like, why wasn't there a balance of predator and prey where there always is, if it was really natural.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Ryan Callahan]

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[Joe Rogan]

Oh, totally. I mean, humans have been stirring the pot forever. That's why it drives me insane when people are like, well, before people.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

I'm like, well, what are you talking about? One that doesn't get us anywhere right.

[Ryan Callahan]

Now Right before people is the dumbest fucking argument ever. They were here first. Well, this is the argument they use with wolves. You know, like they were here first, like, shut the fuck up. Just shut the fuck up. Stop, stop. No, they weren't. First of all, I love people, okay? I'm only concerned with when people were around. So before people fuck off, you want to kill all the people off so the wolves can run things? Like, what are you even saying, right?

[Joe Rogan]

What are we gonna learn from a pre. Human?

[Ryan Callahan]

Don't make any sense. And there was obviously some sort of an imbalance that led to these enormous populations of bison. And I think Dan Flores is an incredibly brilliant guy. I think he makes a really compelling argument because we do know that the Native Americans were wiped out, that 90% of them were killed off by disease. We know that we're talking about millions of people. And if millions of people were subsistent hunters and you know, they were riding around, living off the buffalo, following them around, which we know they did, completely makes sense. Especially when you take into account the long gestation period. You know that bison, I think they have to be pregnant for a long time, Right.

[Joe Rogan]

Boy, I don't know about that one.

[Ryan Callahan]

But woolly mammoth, I know, is a long time.

[Joe Rogan]

I'm sure it was because. Yeah, that was like African elephants.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah. I wonder what is up for a long time. What is a buffalo gestation period? Nine months. So like a person. Yeah. Very different than like a deer. Very different than a lot of other animals.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. I mean, it's badass seeing those things out there. Like, I mean it. It really, really is. Because there's some party, like you're. Whatever people call it these days, your lizard brain or whatever.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Where like, you know that that's their home. Right. And then you see that thing on that landscape and something just clicks and you're like, holy, man.

[Ryan Callahan]

Pretty cool.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, it's. It's amazing.

[Ryan Callahan]

It really cool just to see him in Yellowstone.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

You know, which is kind of weird.

[Joe Rogan]

But.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah, the Yellowstone thing is weird. I. I went there a few years back with my family and it's really beautiful and I enjoyed it. But I did not like the fact that all the elk were hanging out at the visitor station.

[Joe Rogan]

You're right.

[Ryan Callahan]

Because they know they can't be hunted there and they know the wolves won't go there. It was real weird. They're like so domesticated. They just like 30 yards away from a vending machine.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

You see this big herd of elk just laying down on the ground, staring at people and people taking selfies with the animals. I'M like, I don't know about this.

[Joe Rogan]

I know, I know. Yeah. Habituated, as a lot of my biologist friends would say. Yeah. It's the National Park System. Right. Is like it's a absolute wonderful thing. I know there's lots of dedicated civil servants within the national park system that bust their asses educating folks, but they just can't keep up.

[Ryan Callahan]

Have you ever seen the, the Instagram page Turons of Yellowstone?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. Yeah. Doing God's work right there. Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

Darwin in action if you go to it. So like people just getting launched through the air by bison.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

And God, how do they not know by now? I mean, how do you not know that? You can't get.

[Joe Rogan]

Because of the exact, exact thing you're describing. They're like, oh, it's on the tour. Right, Right.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

It's like it's. Fortunately they've trained the bison to stand right next to the visitor information sign or the bull elk or whatever. Right. It's like this just is the way it's supposed to be.

[Ryan Callahan]

And then they'll walk right up to it to try to get a selfie. Yeah, it's. Here's one. Oh, wow. Nothing happens here. Besides they're just closest. Well that, that there's in the middle way. That guy should be standing there. If I was that guy, I would be in that car as fast as I could. I climbing through the passenger side like this. Cuz danger. Do NOT approach wildlife.

[Joe Rogan]

I went up to watch the. The bison hunting season there in Yellowstone in the the Gardner entrance, south entrance or north entrance to the park. And a bunch of the tribes were down doing their harvest and I was riding with Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks. Got to do a little ride along and it was the most successful hunt they've ever had. So this was three years ago now. Tons of snow in the park. Some old cow bison decided to just lead everybody out and there's like hunt rosters. So you draw your, your bison tag, but then you can also be on a list in case those tags get filled, which they never do. But this, this year it did happen. And then all the tribes came up for their harvest and it was amazing. Like there were people knocking buffalo down everywhere and in fact so many that they had to come up with a system to where they'd be like, okay, between daylight and like 9am Nobody's gonna walk beyond this line. Let every. Because let everybody shoot. And then we'll all go out together and start cutting up bison and get them out of there. And then the next round of hunters can. Can have at it. It was like a safety issue. Oh yeah, yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

Is this actually on the park?

[Joe Rogan]

No. So this is. It's called the zone of tolerance which is a creepy, creepy name if you're asking me. Zone of tolerance. So all the states, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, that's around Yellowstone national park they have. The cattle producers have real fears of brucellosis which is a disease that that bison and elk pack around and it causes domestic cattle to abort calves. So hurts them in the pocketbook. Bad deal. Well, they want slash need to reduce bison populations within the park. Can't hunt inside the park. But at the same time all the cattlemen associations they don't want those bison coming out of the park. So what do you do? Well, they came up with the zone of tolerance idea which is a hunting parameter perimeter around the park. They remove all the domestic cattle from within that zone and then the bison, if they come out of the park into that zone, they're fair game for hunters. If they make it beyond that zone somehow, some way then anybody can shoot one. And but, but typically there's like a brand inspector there to take care of any bison that make it beyond the border of the. The zone of tolerance.

[Ryan Callahan]

What do you mean by brand inspector? What does that mean?

[Joe Rogan]

Cattle brand. Oh, yep, yep.

[Ryan Callahan]

So how does that work?

[Joe Rogan]

Well, so he's an agent of the state and he is there to in this particular case like protect the interest of. Of the cattlemen's associations. Cattle ranchers. Right. And so yeah, somehow some way he's authorized to whack those bison as if they make it beyond. But really what, and what do they.

[Ryan Callahan]

Do with the meat?

[Joe Rogan]

It gets donated to any one of those. Those tribal members that that's there probably has right of first refusal at least if not it goes would go straight to the food pantry. Yeah. I mean no, no waste. And in years past there's been groups that go up there just to go pull all anything that's left in the field. The bones, stuff like that for making stock. There's groups that go up there and, and literally like take the carcasses off the ground because it is like highly sought after food stuff. Right. It's a lot of bone broth you can make with the 2, 000 pound critter. Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

Wow.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. But that was an amazing experience. And, and like the. Each tribe brings their own tribal game warden with them. They're kind of like in charge of their people. They're coordinating to maximize the. The harvest and so they're. They're helping, very willing to help people, like coordinate to get their animal and get out of the field so they can get the next person in there. And that's, that's part of the system outside of trapping. So they trap inside the park and then they'll take those animals, move them to a separate facility where they go through. I can't remember how long of a period of monitoring for brucellosis. And then once that herd is. The trapped herd is considered brucellosis free, then they can be given to the tribes or sold.

[Ryan Callahan]

Interesting. So, yeah, so that's how, when people have bison on private land, that's how they get them there.

[Joe Rogan]

I mean, there's a couple other populations, but yeah, yep, that's one of them.

[Ryan Callahan]

And what's the population of bison in the United States now?

[Joe Rogan]

I don't know. I mean, I think they're gunning for 6,000 just inside the park.

[Ryan Callahan]

What do they have now?

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, I don't know, Jamie. You'd have to look that up weird.

[Ryan Callahan]

Oh, I don't know. It says estimated at around 500,000. Smaller portion, 31,000 managed. And then like six grand in Yellowstone.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, yeah, there it is.

[Ryan Callahan]

Very varying numbers, though. Boy, they came so close to being wiped out.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, it's so wild. It's so really.

[Ryan Callahan]

It's crazy.

[Joe Rogan]

So wild. I was staring at, I was like, jeff, what's the deal with this skull, your bison antiquus skull that you have out there? That thing is amazing.

[Ryan Callahan]

That's from my friend John Reeves in Alaska.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, I was wondering. Yeah, I was wondering about the boneyard. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

That place is nuts for a dude.

[Joe Rogan]

Who likes to pick stuff off the ground. That's. That's like a porn page.

[Ryan Callahan]

Oh, yeah, it's a, it's a crazy place. And there's no real explanation to why there's such a population of dead animals in this one spot, you know, and he thinks it's connected to the Younger Dryers impact theory because there's a very clear, distinct line of carbon in his ground like that, you know, when you go deep, deep, deep into the ground, which represents where these, like a lot of these things that he's pulling, they're plus 10,000 years old. Like that step bison head. We didn't get it checked. We didn't have it sent off. But yeah, a lot of stuff he has dated, you know, older than 10,000 years. And so what he thinks is that this is one of the areas where there was an impact. You know, this younger Dryer's impact theory there's two time periods. One is around 11,800 years ago, and then there's another one somewhere around 10,000 plus years ago. And he thinks one of those areas is where he was or where his spot in Alaska is. And this deep rich layer of carbon seems to indicate some massive burn that happened through that area. And it coincides with this immense pile of bones and ivory and, and you know, mammoth skeletons and cave bears and all this like it's a small area, you know, his area is only like the area where they're pulling these bones from is only a few acres.

[Joe Rogan]

No way.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah, he thinks it was a wash. So with the impact came this immediate melting of a lot of the ice caps, you know, and this is what they think happened that ended the Ice Age in North America. You know, 10,000 plus years ago. You're looking at more than a mile high ice in a giant chunk of North America. And then almost instantaneously that stuff gets melted. And this is, this coincides with Randall Carlson's theories about this too, which are also was unsubstantiated until they came up with the core samples for the Younger Dry sent back there. And they go, no, this happened like there, there was a massive impact. Somewhere around 30% of the entire world was hit by comets. And this area where John has, look at this. 2.1 to 2.3 acres. So if you look at the amount of stuff that he has, I mean 2.3 acres is like a nice yard, Right. It's like a nice, a person's really. Oh, you got a nice piece of land here. Nice yard.

[Joe Rogan]

Yep.

[Ryan Callahan]

That's where he's pulling thousands of dead animals.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

And if you look at his, his boneyard, if you look at some of the, some of the warehouses that he has, this is his Instagram page. Boneyard, Alaska is the Instagram page. But he's got enormous warehouses filled with tusks and it's only from a couple acres.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. So they didn't walk to that spot and tip over. They got.

[Ryan Callahan]

Exactly, they all got collected there into there.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Ryan Callahan]

And very similar time. Look at all this stuff, man. Crazy. And look back at the other picture when you, right before, look at that truck filled with heads. I mean, this is nuts, man. And this is like a day's haul. Oh, this is crazy, man. It's really crazy. Oh, it's really pretty extraordinary. And thankfully John has both the resources and the desire to blast the permafrost with these high pressure hoses to get all this stuff. Out of there. But, I mean, he's trying to set up a legitimate research facility out there. You know, these scientists, they want to take the stuff and bring it somewhere. He's like, off. If you want to do it, you're going to do it right here. This is my land. We're not. He already had a problem with the museum. Museum of Natural History. Is that what it was? Yeah. In New York, they dumped tons of his bones into the East River. So the property that he owned before he owned it, someone else owned it. That is his property. They took it, and they were supposed to do research on it, but they had so many bones that they dumped a lot of it in the east river. And the museum denied it. And so he got divers to go look for it, and they found it exactly where they. And they found step bison bones and all kinds of crazy. That's not supposed to be there.

[Joe Rogan]

No.

[Ryan Callahan]

In a pile in the East River.

[Joe Rogan]

When we were looking at the.

[Ryan Callahan]

The.

[Joe Rogan]

The zone of tolerance. Not the zone of tolerance. The. The range. Sorry. Of. Of bison, of buffalo. I was thinking of your skull that you have out there, but I found a gorgeous one in this wash in Alberta. And it would. Would be like their summer range. So north of the Montana border, not all that far. Up near the Saskatchewan river breaks. And you get up on these. These bluffs that overlook the river, and you're like, oh, you just feel like somebody would have been sitting there watching stuff. And then if you look around, there's all. I mean, thousands. Over a lot of miles, but thousands of TP rings. So all the tribes would go up there to hunt bison and. And camp out a little bit of cooler weather. And that's. That's where I found this bison skull.

[Ryan Callahan]

Did you find the arrowheads up there?

[Joe Rogan]

There's a ton of them, but you can't. Can't take anything up there. Yep.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Yep. Yeah. And I called Alberta fishing game on this thing because I was so stoked about it. And they were like, oh, we just consider that cattle up here, like, you can take it, like. Okay.

[Ryan Callahan]

Wow.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

How old is the skull, do you know?

[Joe Rogan]

Well, it was such a pretty skull. People were like, oh, it's got to be bison antiquus. But it's just. It's nowhere near. That's amazing. Is that a freshie? Did somebody make that or. No? No way.

[Ryan Callahan]

No, that's Comanche head from here.

[Joe Rogan]

That's crazy.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah. I showed it to Remy, and he said it's really big, so they probably using it for fish.

[Joe Rogan]

Wow.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

That's amazing.

[Ryan Callahan]

It's interesting that the bigger ones. Like, that is like kind of a normal arrowhead for elk or deer. Like if in today's standards, you know, look at that. That's like. That looks like an iron will. That's basically an iron will. Wide, right?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

And they didn't use them that big. They had smaller ones because they didn't have the much.

[Joe Rogan]

They wanted penetration.

[Ryan Callahan]

Real penetration.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

Pretty cool.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, so cool. So cool.

[Ryan Callahan]

There's a friend of mine has a ranch out here, and they've got thousands of them, you know, like, the Comanche must have used that area. And he has literally thousands and thousands of arrowheads. He's got boxes of them all. Just. All of them are dated and certified. Like, they know, like, what time period they came from and.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. So, like, why was that chunk of ground in use for that long? Right.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

If he's got that many.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

It's not because one group of people camp there for a couple of days.

[Ryan Callahan]

Those thousands of years probably, and. Well, it's because it's really rich, you know, it's like. It's right off the Colorado river, so. Yeah, a lot of resources, a lot of. A lot of foliage, a lot of animals there to this day.

[Joe Rogan]

Yep. Yeah. That's one of the things that you can tell people. It's like, do you want. You want to know why public lands matter? 97% of winter vegetables consumed in the US that are from the US are irrigated by the Colorado River.

[Ryan Callahan]

97%.

[Joe Rogan]

So if your mommies and daddies are out there eating a nice green salad in the winter months, all that is fed by water from public land. Like, do we want that shit to be privatized?

[Ryan Callahan]

Right. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Like, what happens then? Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

Well, Bill Gates already owns more farmland in this country than anybody.

[Joe Rogan]

You know, I keep hearing that. Is he doing good stuff with it?

[Ryan Callahan]

There's no way. No, no. There's no way. I can't imagine that.

[Joe Rogan]

What's his angle?

[Ryan Callahan]

Oh, well, I know he was in the. The veggie burger business for a while, but that went tits up.

[Joe Rogan]

Dude, I am so anti. Anti. The lab grown. And. And.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah, well, that stuff's not even a real burger. It's filled with seed oils and all these. All this goo that you need to make sure that it connects together. And then people would pretend that it's delicious. Oh, this is delicious. You can't even tell the difference. You can't tell the difference. Where are you getting your burgers? Because you're eating cardboard burger. This is. And it's just bad for you. You know, that's where it went tits up when they. Those studies that came out that said it's given lab rats cancer.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, yeah. Well, I. Listen, I think it's just bad for all of us because if people think that your food can come from someplace other than the land.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Then there's no value to that land.

[Ryan Callahan]

Well, it's vegetable based.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Ryan Callahan]

But then it's highly processed. It's not like, you know, you're eating an eggplant. You know, you're not eating a squash. You're. You're eating something that's gone through this insane process to make pretend that it's a burger. And, you know, there's a lot of investors who lost a ton of money because they were lied to. They were told that this is going to be easy to make and it's going to be really convenient and people are going to love it. And people are looking for an alternative to me. No, they're actually, they're not. You know, and this is the only thing. That was my buddy Duncan. He was living in North Carolina and when Covid came and, you know, there was a lot of shortages in the supermarkets and the lockdowns and all that jazz, he's like, the only shit that's available here is this fucking bullshit. Fake meat. Like, fake meat was the only. Sent a picture. It was. The only thing left on the shelf was like Beyond Meat or Beyond Burger or whatever the fuck it's called. Impossible Burger. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

That's a good litmus test, right?

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

If the world's gonna end and nobody.

[Ryan Callahan]

Reaching for and people still aren't eating it, it's fucking. It's actually bad for you. Seed oils are bad for you. And those things are filled with seed oils. And there's also filled with a bunch of process. Because you can't just. It's not, you know, look, if you want to be vegetarian, just eat vegetables, okay? Don't. Don't pretend you're eating some fucking fake burger.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, yeah. One of my biggest pet peeves in life, a buddy of mine was like going down the vegan train and we had to stop in all these towns that had like the best vegan restaurant. And I'm like, they're stealing our names for food, right? The meat eater's name for food. And tofurkey. My God. Yeah. And be like chicken fingers. Reuben sandwich.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

You know, I'm like, can't you just be proud of what you're Putting in your. In your body. I don't care if it's just vegetables.

[Ryan Callahan]

But just eat Indian food. There's a lot of, like, really great Indian restaurants that are totally vegetarian. I used to eat at one that was in Woodland Hills. It was great. It was really cool because you'd go in there and everyone was speaking Hindi. Nobody. You know, the. All the. Like, it was like a cafeteria place and all the menus were all in another. I had a point at things. I didn't know what the fuck it was. I'm like, give me one of those.

[Joe Rogan]

Tasted great.

[Ryan Callahan]

I was great.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah. But it was all vegetarian. Like, there's vegetarian food that you can eat that's really good. It doesn't. You don't have to pretend that it's a fucking burger.

[Joe Rogan]

It is a mental exercise, right? It's like, no, no, no, love vegetables. Can't eat meat. Meat's evil. I just happen to need all my vegetables to resemble meat.

[Ryan Callahan]

Well, and then there's the problem of what actually happens when you have monocrop agriculture, because this is. A lot of this stuff is coming from that. And by the way, there's way more death per calorie of food that you get from monocrop agriculture from growing just one crop in an area than you're ever going to get from meat. Like, there's thousands of animals, millions of animals have to get killed in for. In order you to grow this food. That's just a fact of life.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, you use the word convenience earlier, right? Like, convenience is like the killer of conservation because it. It's hard work, man. It's not convenient. Like, these animals on the landscape that have been. Been doing things for ever, like, they just don't adjust to things. You know, I was talking about, like the. The prairie, how we're losing 2 million acres of prairie a year. Well, there's this super badass little chicken, lesser prairie chicken, super charismatic little dude, dances, puts his tail fan up, big cheek flares and game bird used to be in the. Possibly into the millions in that. That time that you described when Lewis and Clark were coming out onto the prairie. It is a prairie bird to the point where it will not nest within, I kind of want to say, six acres of a vertical structure of any size.

[Ryan Callahan]

Interesting.

[Joe Rogan]

Right? So there were no trees on the prairie, no fence posts. And this bird can't nest if it's around any sort of a vertical anything, like, because that's just the way its brain is wired.

[Ryan Callahan]

Whoa.

[Joe Rogan]

And that shit is so inconvenient. For people that it's just hit the endangered species list.

[Ryan Callahan]

So is that because it has to be completely away from all predators that it has to know where everything is?

[Joe Rogan]

I think it's got to be, it's got to be something like that. Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

So it doesn't fly.

[Joe Rogan]

It does fly.

[Ryan Callahan]

Does it fly like a chicken does, like short periods? No, fly like a turkey.

[Joe Rogan]

There's like a colloquial, you know, hunter name where they just call prairie birds chickens. It's not a chicken at all, but it's, it's like a little grouse species.

[Ryan Callahan]

What does it look like? See if you can pull it up.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, so. But it's a great test case for the greater sage grass.

[Ryan Callahan]

A cool looking little animal.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, so which one is all the same? It's the, it's a smaller version of that. That's the greater prairie chicken. We're looking for the lesser prairie chicken.

[Ryan Callahan]

So the greater prairie chicken, how big is that?

[Joe Rogan]

You're looking at like 16 to 18 ounces. I bet we got a size on that sucker.

[Ryan Callahan]

That's the big one.

[Joe Rogan]

So the little one's tiny, but 95% of the native habitat left for that bird is on private ground at this point.

[Ryan Callahan]

Oh, wow.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. And that private ground is used for grazing.

[Ryan Callahan]

So 24 ounces to 42 ounces.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, that's a big one.

[Ryan Callahan]

Adults.

[Joe Rogan]

There you go.

[Ryan Callahan]

That's the greater prairie chickens. Oh, what a cool looking little bird.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, charisma.

[Ryan Callahan]

When I was in.

[Joe Rogan]

This guy's got ears.

[Ryan Callahan]

Oh, whoa. That's crazy looking.

[Joe Rogan]

Rabbit ears.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

How weird. There's this awesome group of ranchers kind of in the Colorado, Oklahoma, New Mexico zone. And they, they formed the Lesser Prairie Chicken landowner alliance. And what they've been trying to do is get. Because there's this, this huge conservation bill, biggest conservation package in the world called the farm bill. And it has a lot of incentive subsidy for farmers. Isn't that thing amazing?

[Ryan Callahan]

I've never seen a bird with ears like that. Oh, like other than like an owl kind of has them, but those are so pronounced.

[Joe Rogan]

How cool is that thing?

[Ryan Callahan]

Is that his actual ears or is that just like a weird feather structure?

[Joe Rogan]

Those are just feathers.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah, but where's his ears? Behind that.

[Joe Rogan]

They're right behind his eyeballs.

[Ryan Callahan]

So do you think those, that feather structure enhances hearing? I mean, it has to, right?

[Joe Rogan]

No, that feather structure there is to enhance his sex life.

[Ryan Callahan]

Oh. Let the ladies know what's up.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

Sup? Look at my ears, baby. Got it going on over here.

[Joe Rogan]

Do they wiggle them or something? Oh, they're, they dance.

[Ryan Callahan]

Interesting.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

And so it's almost kind of a grouse, so.

[Joe Rogan]

Yes, it is a grouse. Yeah. Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

Ground nesting.

[Joe Rogan]

Yep, yep.

[Ryan Callahan]

It's probably also one of those animals that feral cats up.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, for sure. Yeah, for sure.

[Ryan Callahan]

Oh, wow. Look how cool it is. Wow. So beautiful looking. Look at his eyebrows.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

Let's go get it on. Let's go, baby.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

Look at that guy's blocking. See that?

[Joe Rogan]

Wow.

[Ryan Callahan]

What a cute little animal.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. And this thing is tied to wide ass open grass, white ass open prairie. Right. And so with this group, the Lesser Prairie Chicken Landowner alliance is doing is, you know, they're trying to get folks in the Department of Ag to set up some, some funding specifically for grassland ecosystems that are used for grazing. So it's going to be good for the round rancher and good for the grouse in this case too. Right. And that funding doesn't exist, but there's lots of programs to take like monocrop agriculture and turn it into crp, which you know, mixed grass, basically like Rest that Ground. That was one of the programs that came out of the Dust bowl era. So instead of turning the ground over and all that dirt dries out and can get blown away, we lose that topsoil, plant it with, with grass and let it rest for like a three year period, a five year period. Part of our like big ag incentive structures, balance out markets and all that fun stuff.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah, monocrop agriculture, such a problem. And industrial, agricultural in general. I had Will Harris on a couple of times from White Oaks Pastures.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

And so his family farm was an industrial farm forever. And then when he took it over, it was like a 20 year period of converting it to become regenerative. And in that process, what's really, if you look outside in our lobby area, we have two jars of soil that were given to us by Will. And one of them is from his neighbor's property that's an industrial farm. And it's just like this weird, pale looking fucking just, you know, it's all industrial fertilizer that they have to use and pesticides. Yeah. And his is like this rich dark soil. He's like super proud of like what they've turned it and converted it over to just this natural process that's supposed to exist. When animals graze, the ungulates, they poop and they make manure and then the grasses grow and the animals eat the ground. It's all, that's how it's supposed to be. And we've.

[Joe Rogan]

But you know what else? It is inconvenient. Yeah. It's hard fricking work.

[Ryan Callahan]

Oh, yeah, right. It's hard work. Well, fortunately for him, he's got a big name now, and so people seek out his food.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

They want to buy from him, but, you know, these. And there's a lot of, like, bullshitting from supermarkets. Like, he had a real issue with Whole Foods lying. And even after he had stopped selling them food, they were. They're saying that it was coming from him. Oh, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

No.

[Ryan Callahan]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Even the concept of, like, grass fed, like, for how long? Like, and how you feed them the grass. Are they in a pen where you feeding the grass? Are they actually wandering around eating grass like they're supposed to? Yeah, there's a lot of that. You know, like, when you hear about, like, chickens, you know, they're free range. Like, what. What does that mean?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

How much of a range?

[Joe Rogan]

I just had dinner with our buddy Jesse last night, and it was insane. It was so good. Dai Dewey.

[Ryan Callahan]

Oh, yeah, that's an amazing restaurant here.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, but we were just. I was like, okay, well, tell me about this. Tell me about, you know, longhorn and what wagyu means on his menu and. And all the. The pigs and the things that he's seeking out and, like, the breed of chicken that they have. But like, you were saying, like, it's not just the breed. What was that chicken doing?

[Ryan Callahan]

Right?

[Joe Rogan]

And it's insane. It is so fricking cool, man. Like, it's a heartwarming place to eat. And it was just like, knock your freaking socks off.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah. Jesse does it the right way. And he's such a good chef. He's so amazing. He. When Steve and I went to Eutoria down in South Texas to hunt, Jesse came and he. He cooked for us. It was the most incredible experience because. And he cooked diver duck, which everybody says is gross, right? He's like, no, no, no. This is just. You just have to prepare it properly. And it was some of the best duck I've ever had in my life. He just has a marinating process that he does, and then he grills it. And it was insane. It was so good, man. It was so good.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. I mean, they got nominated for James Beard on his turkey book, which is super awesome. The people down there just, you know, his employees stay there. They've been there for. They're like, everybody in that house has been there for a decade, and they. They're just loving the stuff that they're doing and putting out and the stories that you can tell on that menu. Right. Like, the bread.

[Ryan Callahan]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

Is. He's like, yeah, I went and picked grapes out of the alley across the street, which doesn't sound all that great. But that's how he, like, started the yeast for the bread. And that's been going for six years. They got yogurt that came from a culture that's been going from. For 200 years, from one of their employees whose family's from India, and they brought it over.

[Ryan Callahan]

Whoa.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. I mean, just. I love that stuff.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

I love that stuff. But it takes, like, dedication and commitment to know where your food comes from. Right, right.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And I swear to God, when I go back to D.C. and I'm talking to people, like, they are so disconnected from this stuff. And I just often think I'm like, God, if you guys just knew where the food comes from, what the land actually provides.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

We wouldn't be having these conversations.

[Ryan Callahan]

No. I mean, human beings, for the most part, in urban areas are completely disconnected. If you had a survey of how many people really understand where food comes from in your average city, I. I would imagine it's a less than double digits.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

This is probably a small percentage of people really understand.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, man. I mean. I mean, the economics of food I've gotten really into recently because there is a real inability in certain areas of the country where the cost of getting anywhere near an actual grocery store is prohibitive to a lot of people. And so, you know, they're just like. They're out of luck for. For a real food. And then it's a cultural thing of, mom didn't know what real food was, dad didn't know what real food was. So I don't. And my kids won't.

[Ryan Callahan]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

You know, and. And then on the flip side of that, it's like food comes from doordash. Food comes from, you know, people spending big bucks.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And they don't. And they're just as disconnected as the folks who don't have any bucks to spend.

[Ryan Callahan]

Now, imagine the younger dryers impact today. Imagine some kind of impact like that today to force people to actually find their own food. You know, first of all, you'd be dealing with a small amount of survivors.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Ryan Callahan]

Let's imagine an apocalyptic, apocalyptic scenario where 20% of the population survives, which has probably happened numerous times in human history. If that happened today, how many people are equipped to find food? How many people are equipped to live off the land?

[Joe Rogan]

It's such a small amount Such a small amount. I also think about the anthropologists digging through that bone pile.

[Ryan Callahan]

Oh, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

And they're like, why is it that when we do cross sections of these bones, they're so much more unhealthy than the cross sections of the bones from 4,000 years earlier?

[Ryan Callahan]

I know.

[Joe Rogan]

Or late, you know? Yeah, yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

Because I think that's convenience.

[Joe Rogan]

Convenience, man. We love our convenience.

[Ryan Callahan]

Convenience is killing us.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, yeah. And I think there's a moment here, we had all these different walks of life come together and be like, oh, my God, public lands matter. We had all these businesses come together and say, public lands matter. I gotta tell you, when I was chatting with our buddy Cam Haynes the other day, when I was about to be disconnected for a week, right? And I've been like, eating and breathing this. This fight, this stupid lawsuit that came out last year. Then it's in the House. Oh, my God. We get it pulled out of the House. Thank God. Then it goes to the Senate. Oh, my. Mike Lee introduces the damn thing in the Senate, sneaks his language in, blindsides everybody, and I got to get on a plane to go to the Arctic. And there's this little, like, bellwether moment where I look at. I make like a last Instagram post, last thing I can do. And I see Cameron Haynes is like, you guys, you got to get off your asses and. And call your senators. They're selling our public land. And the same day, Josh Smith from Montana Knife Co. Did it, too. And I bring those two guys up as examples because they were also like, like on the. The mega train, right? They were like, pro Trump in through the election. They're representing the. The right side of the political spectrum. And when that moment happened, I did draw, like, a little. Little breath of relief right there. I was like, okay.

[Ryan Callahan]

And people that aren't afraid to criticize aspects of the big, beautiful bill.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, right. Yeah. And. And they're not afraid to say, yeah, we voted for this guy, but this part of the. The pie sucks. It's super important to us that this gets pulled out of here and we're gonna go to go to the mat for it. And I'm like, that is. That is the thing, right? We have people who aren't so self conscious that they're like, oh, God, I said this thing a month ago. I can't come out and say what I really think right now because that would kind of contradict what I said a month ago.

[Ryan Callahan]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

You know, and that gave me, like, really, really made me feel good. I'm like, okay, things are starting to go our way now because all the other people who were afraid to say the same thing were like, oh, thank God some other people with a big microphone came out and said it. So now I feel emboldened to stand up publicly for what I believe in.

[Ryan Callahan]

That's such a terrible thing to be so trapped in the ideology of your party that you can't stand up for what's right. That's, that's gross.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, man. And so un American. And it's being promoted though, too. Like, one of the things I feel when I go back to D.C. is there's a lot of people spending time on making sure not that America is better, but that that system persists so the next, next generation, a short, short little boat shoe, no sock wearing people can have jobs.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah, those boat shoes. Yeah, it's gross. It's really gross. And it's prevalent. You know, it's been around for a long time. This, this weird system that we have there. It's, it's not effective. It's not good. It's not good for anybody. And it's all being fed by lobbyists and special interest groups and they're all just, they want to keep it going, they want to keep the, the grift going.

[Joe Rogan]

But there, I mean, there's, there's palpable frustration out there. Like, I feel it every day. A long time ago you told me you're like, dude, don't, don't read the comment section. And you're a thousand percent right. I can't say how right you are. But during this time of like, why aren't people clicking into this?

[Ryan Callahan]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

I was getting real depressed, like shaken, pissed tears at times over feeling so underrepresented. And then when we started gaining momentum, I was like, okay, what the hell else can I do? I'm calling my senators, I'm calling my representatives, I'm, I'm establishing contacts with their staff. I'm, I'm talking to them about how important this is. I'm asking them what else we can do. Trying to build these bridges for this goal of protecting my public lands that I love. Right. We're working with, all these non profit groups are coming together, even groups that traditionally don't focus on public land access issues. You know, like your Rocky Mountain Elk foundation, who has done a bunch of stuff for access, but you know, they have an elk on their logo. They're, they're the elk people. And then pheasants and quail forever. They're the pheasants and quail people. National Wild Turkey Federation, they're the turkey people. But they started being like, oh, this is real serious. And then we started getting all these people in the same room together, sharing information instead of being competitive. And then businesses started coming out and saying, well, what, what can we do? Little, little breweries down in Arizona. This guy Renhaus Brewing called me and he's like, hey, what can I do? I have a brewery. What can I do? And we came out with a beer that has a QR code on the label and it's just called rep because at that time, the fight was in the House. So call your representative and you hit the QR code, you put in your zip code and it connects you with your representative. Right. It's like crush beers and crush the phone lines, whatever tag you want up to. I was on, I'm on a steering committee that has rei, Patagonia, Rivian, all like big, big companies. Right. That are like, we, we want to put some muscle behind this. We want public lands to say, stay public. Then we launched a Hunt Brands for Public lands coalition and had a huge name. Sig Sauer is on there. Right. They have military contracts and they had the guts to stand up and be like, we don't want to see public lands get sold off.

[Ryan Callahan]

That's awesome.

[Joe Rogan]

Yep. Whether it be another firearms manufacturer, you know, first Light Meteor, obviously. But we started like building all these bridges and unifying groups and people and businesses around this common cause. And it's that public persistence that we, the people part that folks kind of tend to forget that is literally saving public lands. But like being out there public and loud and it's working, but we need to take it to the next step. Right. And maintain the momentum and stay unified. And the, the thing that was really interesting, right, is like, we're up to, up to the date, up to the absolute second that language is pulled before it's officially pulled. Mike Lee's team has his statement out on. I listened. I still want to sell public land, but I listened to everybody. So I'm not going to do it right now is really what it says. And he's completely fabricating this story. He was told, like, this is going to get pulled. So you can do it now and save some face or we can pull it and you're gonna look like a loser. Right. And unfortunately you got the option to like fight again another day, which is brutal. But I get that information and I get to announce it to this awesome group of people at this off road rally. Trash Pickup, dealing them out, called the Gambler 500, which is super cool. And then I put that online. I'm like, hey, thank you to the Democrats and thank you to the Republicans and thank you for all the voices that came out and the businesses and all this stuff. And then I was just like, set my clock as to when people were going to just start tearing each other apart. And it fucking happened. Right. And it's like, you guys voted for this. You were getting exactly what you deserve.

[Ryan Callahan]

Oh, right, right, right. I did see a lot of that.

[Joe Rogan]

You know what I mean?

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah, I did see a lot of that. Like, no, we didn't, stupid. No, we voted because we felt like the country was moving in a terrible direction. It doesn't mean that they can't also move in a terrible direction once you get them in. The important thing is people stood up, people like you, luckily, that are very invested in this and use the considerable resources you have access to. And got a lot of other people involved, like Cam, Josh Smith and everybody else. And I jumped into. That's. We're just lucky that a lot of people care and recognize that this is a slippery slope and that if they got through with this and they did this, this is just one step. And if you let them sell one acre, that's why just not one acre was the best motto. It really was not. One acre was the best motto. You can't. It's not yours, it's ours. It's everyone's. And if you sell it, you should make zero profit. It should go. Literally, if you did sell it, it should have to go to every person that lives in the planet or in this country, rather. Yeah. I mean, and we don't want it. We don't want that money. Keep it. Keep it the way it is.

[Joe Rogan]

The value of this stuff only goes up.

[Ryan Callahan]

Not only that, again, we're 36 fucking trillion dollars in debt. You're not even going to put it. If you sold all the public land, all of it that we have, it wouldn't put a dent in it.

[Joe Rogan]

No, it wouldn't. You could strip all the timber.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Sell the land, everything, minerals, everything. Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

Not going to put a dent in it.

[Joe Rogan]

No, it's not. So we got to find a better way. And you know what? It's not going to be convenient.

[Ryan Callahan]

No.

[Joe Rogan]

It's going to be hard. And that's. That's like the thing that I keep coming back to. I'm like, all they're doing is being like, oh, see, we did something they're not doing. The hard work. Right. And this particular thing would divest the American people of. In. In my mind, and we. We started doing it as a slogan for backcountry hunters and anglers is like, public land freedom. Like, you are divesting the American people of the ability to be free. Like, these places represent, like, a lot of goofballs, man. Unstructured fun. And I feel like there's a lot of people in the lawmaking side of things that get very nervous about American people out there having unstructured fun. They're like, what's going on out there on that BLM land? There's somebody riding a motorcycle and there's somebody shooting a gun, and there's somebody fly fishing and there's somebody bird watching. There's a family camping. Can't have that.

[Ryan Callahan]

Do you really think that's it? Do you really think it's like, they don't want unstructured fun?

[Joe Rogan]

I. I'm coming around to that thought a lot, man. A lot. Like, right. They're like, why there's no kiosk. Right. Nobody's out there charging.

[Ryan Callahan]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

For your use of America's public lands. You're not signing a liability waiver. Oh, my God. And once you're out there, you just kind of make up whatever it is you want to do that day. That's freedom, buddy. Right. And I think people are nervous about that.

[Ryan Callahan]

That's a weird perspective.

[Joe Rogan]

It is.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah. I don't know if I agree with that. I just think they look at it as an opportunity to cash in. I think they look at as an opportunity, like, we have all this land. It's public. Let's sell some of it. I think it's just, like, incredibly short sighted. I think they think in terms of. Literally in terms of terms where they're.

[Joe Rogan]

Elected and it's not. Sell some of it. Right. They're like, we're gonna maybe hold on to the national parks, but there's another play there where we're gonna turn those over to the States.

[Ryan Callahan]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

Or privatize them completely.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Get full control of, like I said, like, Colorado River. Right. Like, we're gonna control the. The pipes for the watersheds. Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

I've heard that language before. That water's not a right. Yeah. That people are gross, man. If you let them be and you let them be, though, they'll. They'll be gross and.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, absolutely. And some of these people want it purely for the fact that they can't have it. Right. And it drives them insane.

[Ryan Callahan]

There's definitely that, yeah, there's definitely that. A lot of short sightedness. It's a lot of people could use a mushroom trip. It's a lot of people that are just. You're missing so much of what this life is because you're so concentrated on your election cycle. You're so concentrated on making more money. You're so concentrated on things that when you're 90 and you're in your deathbed, it ain't gonna mean. Man, it's not gonna mean a damn thing.

[Joe Rogan]

No. No. You could have been having fun and enjoying life with your neighbors.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah. It's like you can't keep it. You're gonna die. You can't take it with you. You're gonna die. And they don't see that while they're on the hunt, while they're in the middle of this process of trying to accumulate zeros in their bank account.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. Got a little endorphin high. Saw another zero hit.

[Ryan Callahan]

That's all they want. And they're competing with other people that are doing the exact same thing. So they're in their little short sighted echo chambers, you know.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. Y. Keeping to God. People learned. Right. Like there's a lot happening in between elections and, and you got to know if you weighed in during this, you made a difference. Like everybody who jumped in and wrote to their representatives and, and senators and told their buddies about this and asked businesses, why aren't you on that list?

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah. You can actually make a difference in this country.

[Joe Rogan]

Absolutely. And it's not, not just at the election hash marks.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Like if people didn't hold our elected accountable, they would have been like they just want to get this stuff passed. They're like path least resistance. There's some really good ass kickers out there on the Democrat and Republican side of things for sure. But we need to lift those people up in order to get the, the rest of the, the coasters involved.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah. And we need to also let people know that this isn't, this is an issue going forward. Now that we know this is an issue that can affect whether or not you get elected. You need to know that like we're going to be on you. You can't do this.

[Joe Rogan]

Exactly. Like we're going to be consistent and we're going to be on your ass.

[Ryan Callahan]

And now that this has happened and we've had some success and it worked. Now people know it'll work. And so now all the Randy Newbergs and all the, all the people that were like really enthusiastic about this that really did Their job, you know, they're getting more support now and it's, it's going to build and then we'll be much more aware of whether one of these things is trying to get snuck through in the future.

[Joe Rogan]

Absolutely, absolutely. I would say the early folks, right. Like, Randy, I feel like we were kicking ass at Meat Eater. Katie Hill at Outdoor Life, Andrew McKean, Outdoor Life, Travis Hall, Field and Stream, like, those people were on it.

[Ryan Callahan]

And yeah, I think all those people have a significant following on social media.

[Joe Rogan]

You know, and they have a lot to lose too, man.

[Ryan Callahan]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Yep. National Wildlife Federation, backcountry hunters and anglers. We're talking about this way early. And then a lot of other orgs jumped in and, and some early. Pheasants Forever, Quail Forever. They, they started. They were awesome. I just gotta, I gotta mention them because they're like, they're farm bill oriented, hook and bullet organizations. They do an amazing job, but that's largely private side of the fence. And they came out and started talking to their membership about this early and you kind of get punched in the face. I got to be honest, like, we took a lot of shit on the Meat Eater side of things. Renella took a ton of shit.

[Ryan Callahan]

How so?

[Joe Rogan]

Just people being like, well, one, they're like, steve, aren't you a Trumper? You can't also support public lands because that's going against Trump.

[Ryan Callahan]

This is just people in the comments, right?

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Again, yeah, yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

Who are those people?

[Joe Rogan]

Way too much time.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah, don't, don't read them. You're dealing with such a small population of morons. The problem with comments is especially negative comments. It's so. Such a small population and almost all of them are losers.

[Joe Rogan]

I got sucked in, though, because I'm like, I don't know. I was like, I was so desperate to make an impact right at the end, I'm like, I'm feeling like I've pulled every freaking lever that I can.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

I'm asking the experts. I'm like, could we get. And this is a screwed up piece of information. I was like, okay, I want to do a Freedom of Information act request, sue for information for all the senators offices and find out how many people called on behalf of public lands and how many people called to sell them off. And I want that information to be public. Well, those offices, they don't have to give over that information. I found out. So, like, where the hell's the accountability on that?

[Ryan Callahan]

Right?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. But anyway, I'm going Nuts. Trying to figure out what other levers I could pull. And I would just sit there and be like, okay, I'm gonna find one person on the feed and just understand their side of things and see if I can pull them over to my side of things, and maybe that butterfly wing effect will do some sort of good.

[Ryan Callahan]

You're not those people. Yeah, you voted for this. Those people are just trying to win. They're just trying to, like, get you. And they're people that, for whatever reason, thought Kamala Harris would be a good president. And then there's also people that I don't even know if they're real humans. I think there's a lot of this stuff that we have to understand about social media is coordinated bot farms. And so anytime you have a hot button topic that could, you know, maybe get a bill rejected or get a bill passed, it's not organic. The comments. There's some organic comments. Some of these people that are negative. You voted for this. They're just a real loser who doesn't like people that have public profiles, doesn't like people that are successful, doesn't like people, and they just want to find some way to call you out. There's a lot of that, but then there's a lot of coordinated artificial interaction, and we've. We've highlighted that, and we've. We've been on that for quite a while because we found out through this one former FBI guy that 80%. His estimation was 80% of Twitter is bots. Yeah, 80%.

[Joe Rogan]

You know, people are having their whole life is talking to bots, then if that's the case.

[Ryan Callahan]

It is the case. I know it's the case. I don't know if it's 80%, but I do know that it's an enormous number because I. I don't interact. And I'm. I'm. Now, I've. I've since separated myself so far that I'm kind of not even on social media anymore. I might check it in. The more I check Twitter in the morning to see what everybody's mad at, you know, and then I usually feel bad after I check, and I'm like, why am I even looking at this?

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

Christ. And I just get off. And when you. You do that, you feel better. You just feel healthier. You feel better. But when I do check and, like, there's any sort of a hot button issue, I'll look at someone is saying something outrageous, then I'll click on their profile, and then I'm like, it's like a bunch of letters and a few numbers. And then I look at their profile. I'm like, oh, you're not even a real person. And then you see, oh, this is like, half of the people in this aren't real people. And it's. There's no laws. Like, there's no. I'm. First of all, let me be real clear. I'm against a law where it says you have to post under your name. Your. Your Social Security number has to be registered to this account. So we know you're a real human being. The reason why I'm opposed to that is because I think whistleblowers are essential, because I think corruption is real. And I think if you hold someone accountable for everything they post, man, you're going down a dark road. You don't. You're going down a dark road where you could possibly get people fired for posts that, you know, like, England is out of control right now. Like, I don't know if you know this, but England. I think it was somewhere in the neighborhood. How many people got arrested for social media posts in England this year? We've looked this up before. I forget the number. It's in the thousands arrested for saying immigration's a real problem. We gotta stop these grooming gangs. We gotta, you know, stop these Muslims from, you know, illegally immigrating into England. Arrested, go to jail. Like, for real.

[Joe Rogan]

That. That's insane.

[Ryan Callahan]

People do time. They're doing time like, no bullshit. Real time for saying things like, I.

[Joe Rogan]

Could kill for a cheeseburger. No, he said I killed.

[Ryan Callahan]

Not like that. Yeah, not like that. But. But it's mostly about policy issues. And what they're trying to do is make sure that everyone stays in line. And so they're doing this by scaring people away from being critical of the government. And the way to start it is to attack people that say anything bad about immigration. Attack people that say anything bad about the government. In fact, they just tried. They're just doing this in Brazil right now. They just passed this huge fucking law that you can get removed from social media for anything that's critical of the government, Anything that's critical of Lula, who's the president of Brazil right now. You get removed from social media. Like, you can't be critical. Like, they don't have freedom of speech anymore. And this is the slippery road. This is a slippery slope that we were going down with the last administration. What they had done during the pandemic. It's scary stuff, man. And people have to be aware of It.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, I think there's a version of that too with what we were talking about on like the hard party politics people. Right. Where it's like the social backlash. Yes. Of being a critical thinker is so much that it then creates a non thinker or you just totally leave that zone. You don't pay attention anymore. You're not going to talk about it.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah, yeah, it's you, you self censor. You self censor out of survival. You know, you realize this is too dangerous. I'm not going to say anything. And that's how they get things passed. Because then you don't have any criticism and then you don't have any, you don't have any people that are opposing you. It's very scary because again, a lot of this stuff that you're seeing that's causing people to self center is not real. Self center is not real human beings.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

It's bots.

[Joe Rogan]

And, and that's my fear, is that when you finally get that person to be like, all right, you know what, I'm gonna leave this part of it behind and step out to advocate for what I believe in. And the first response they get is you voted for this, you, you're getting what you deserve.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah, right. Police make 30 rests a day for offensive online messages. Oh God, isn't that nuts? So officers from 37 forces made 12,183 arrests in 2023. Equivalent of about 33 per day marks an almost 58% rise in arrests since before the pandemic in 2019. But still like 2019. 7,000 detentions for online shit. So what we have in America is incredibly unique in that regard. And other countries are setting a standard and it's a dangerous fucking standard. And we have to really make sure that that doesn't happen here. And we also have to make sure. I wish there was a way where you could identify bots. And Elon tried to find this out when he bought Twitter. So when he purchased Twitter, they told him that it was less than 5%. And he's like, well, how did you figure that out? And well, they only figured it out. It's not real. It's not a real number. But they just took a random cross section of 100 users and found 5% of those people were clearly bots.

[Joe Rogan]

That doesn't mean any jobs done.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah, you could also do that. You could take a random section of users that interact with very non controversial subjects and find a small number of bots. Like let's say you find a bird Watching group of people on Instagram or on Twitter. Like what are the odds that those people are going to be bots? Very small. Right. There's no reason, there's no benefit financially or otherwise politically.

[Joe Rogan]

Big bird seed. Yeah, you know, coming in.

[Ryan Callahan]

Exactly. Like. So if you go after bird. I use birdwatchers because I see them all the time, you know, that's like the purest form of just this is what they're into.

[Joe Rogan]

Great group.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah, great group of people. But there's no financial incentive to support or deny bird watching, you know. So if you go to the birdwatcher group on Twitter, Yeah, it's probably 5% bots because they're fucking everywhere. But if you, I guarantee if you go to abortion or if you go to immigration or if you go to anything, that's a hot button. Contra ICE raids, whatever it is, any, anything, any hot button. Controversial subject there, There's a ton of a man and it's kind of creepy because who is paying for it? Who's paying for it? And why do we don't, how come we don't have any laws to stop that from happening? Because it's not real. You're, you're getting this artificial sense of what the general public wants because they've, they've, you know, monetized it and they figured out a way to artificially inflate these numbers.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. And I think it gives this illusion.

[Ryan Callahan]

Of this consensus amongst people and they can do that and even with like ridiculous conclusions.

[Joe Rogan]

And I think consensus though is, is so dangerous to any political party. Right. Like what we just saw, there was an agenda and everybody had to stand up and say something because of one frickin person who wanted to make this happen.

[Ryan Callahan]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

And I guarantee you, I guarantee you that what they're thinking about right now is holy shit, how do we break up this consensus? Like what do we need to do? We can't have bird watchers agreeing with off road users and bow hunters.

[Ryan Callahan]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

That's, that's, we can't win that.

[Ryan Callahan]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

We need them to be only bird watchers, only bow hunters, only off road users.

[Ryan Callahan]

Well, what we need to do is be apolitical. And I think we were with this, which is beautiful. So the Democrats, Republicans and the people like me that are fucking politically homeless, they, they all came together on this and said no, this is stupid. And in all these people, oh, you voted for this? Fuck you. Nobody voted for that. Fuck you. Like this is one guy. And if history, if that didn't work, if we didn't have an impact. And if nobody stepped up and people like you weren't so steadfast, that would be in the history books. That Mike Lee guy would be the guy that you see, you know, your kids see in 40, 50 years and they read the history books, they go, oh, that guy, that guy did this.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. He'd have a proud statue inside a giant strip mall, something that used to be public land, and be like, why is that here?

[Ryan Callahan]

Probably wouldn't.

[Joe Rogan]

Because. Because we gave up.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

That's what happened.

[Ryan Callahan]

Well, it depends on who's writing the history books. Right. It could be that he would be a hero. He turned it out, they generated 200 extra billion dollars that did nothing. Did nothing for this. I mean, this big, beautiful bill. Doesn't it raise the debt by 3 trillion?

[Joe Rogan]

I think that's what they came down to. It started at 4 and now it's at like 3.3 trillion. Yeah. And there's so much to it, too. Like, like I said, this is my own personal dumpster fire.

[Ryan Callahan]

What Trump wants is growth. He wants economic growth and he thinks he can get it out of this, and that's the overall net benefit.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, and there's some bending over backwards. Right. Like that Arctic trip that we were talking about. We went up to the 1002 area on the Arctic plain.

[Ryan Callahan]

Just that ceiling increased by 5 trillion.

[Joe Rogan]

Did that just happen, Jamie?

[Ryan Callahan]

That did pass this afternoon when we started.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. Okay.

[Ryan Callahan]

150 billion in additional border security. Well, we probably need that 154 billion additional defense spending. Let's. You got to get to feed the demons.

[Joe Rogan]

The golden dome thing, which is not.

[Ryan Callahan]

What's the Golden Dome? That's space based golden dome missile defense system.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. Trump was enamored with Israel's missile defense system and wanted one. And most of the experts were like, that doesn't really work with our land mass. Oh, boy.

[Ryan Callahan]

There's also hypersonic missiles. There's a lot of. It doesn't work with there.

[Joe Rogan]

There's a, there's a line item in here for, I think it's a few billion bucks for our next big birthday. America's next big birthday, which I always think of affordable housing when I think I was like, I bet the folks like having their own little individual parties and might think it's okay to throw that couple hundred million at an issue versus fireworks and parades, you know, I don't know. Maybe, maybe. But yeah, man, we got it. We have got to stay unified. Yeah. On these things.

[Ryan Callahan]

Stay unified. And avoid the comments, folks. And don't be Scared. Don't be scared to speak out against something that you know is wrong.

[Joe Rogan]

And you jackasses, if you want something real bad, like I want public lands, public waters, public wildlife for the people, real bad. I don't. When that shit talker converts and is like, yeah, public lands are sweet. I called my senator. I don't say, fuck you right, shit talker. I say, thank you, dude. Really appreciate it.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah, well, most of those shit talkers don't have good friends. The people that actually are actual human beings that are losers, the reason why they're losers is because they're in a bad spot. Okay? And any one of us could have been that person. Any one of us could have been that person that's surrounded by bad people. They have a bad job, they got a bad relationship, they live in a bad area. There's not a whole lot of hope, not a whole lot of happiness. And so you try to tear down everything around you.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. You take. Put your petty.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Over the top of the real ship.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah. But my perspective is, look, I can't fix everybody, so I can't help you. But I don't want to interact with you, so I'm not going to. I'm not. I don't have the time. I don't have the resources. It's impossible and I don't like it. I don't like arguing with people, so I don't want to do it. If you talk to people one on one, most people are pretty fucking reasonable, pretty amazing. But really, when they're just shouting out into the void like that, guess what? You don't have to read it. You don't have to listen.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

You don't have to interact. It's. It's bad for you. It's bad for your brain. Everybody that I know that's on social media all the time is super unhealthy. Every one of them.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah. For good reason. Yeah, it's a. It's a trash pit.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

It worked really well in this case. Yeah. Because it allowed that community to build fast and be reactive.

[Ryan Callahan]

But you have to curate your community online the same way you curate your community in the real world, you know, and this is a part of not reading the comments, because the comments is the whole world, you know, or the, the people that are interacting. It's not really the whole world, but again, it's just, it's. It's not worth it. It's just not worth it. It's not worth going in there and.

[Joe Rogan]

People, if you want to win, like, identify that freaking goal. And. And think, okay, what's going to help me achieve that goal? It's not putting your petty above the goal.

[Ryan Callahan]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

Right. You bury that stuff deep down inside and you say, great. Thank you. Thanks for hopping on board. Please tell your friends we're gonna get to this goal together. That's awesome.

[Ryan Callahan]

I think that's best done on a group basis. Like, just make a post. Thank you to everybody that did it. But don't interact with individuals. This is not worth it. The people that I know that do it, that I'll give you, they all get up. Because it's just like. It just takes one comment that gets under your skin. That.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

You. Carries you around while you're hanging out with. You're at your kid's baseball game and you think, that sucker on Twitter. You know, there's a lot of people out there that are doing that, man. You're watching your kid hit a home run. You're not even happy. You're. You're mad about some fucking random dude who you don't even know if it's a real person.

[Joe Rogan]

No. Is the truth. I told that. That group I was with up in the Arctic, man, I'm like. I read them because I want to understand the argument and see if that's really the argument. Like, is this really where people are coming from or is it just an asshole?

[Ryan Callahan]

There's mostly just an asshole. And even their argument probably sucks, but also a lot of it's artificial. You got to think about how much money is involved in selling off this public land and how much of an interest do people have in pushing a narrative that would say that selling this public land is a good thing.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

You know, there's. There's money involved in this. Whenever there's money involved in this, there's. You can pay for. There's services where you can start a campaign like it's not real. You. There's services where, if you want to push a narrative, you can use their service and they will incorporate this bot farm and they will push it towards whatever you want to do. And it's legal. That's what's fucked.

[Joe Rogan]

That's so fucked.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah, it's fake. It's lying. It's just lying. With computers. Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Unfortunately, there's still a lot of people out there on the interweb going, well, I read it on the Internet.

[Ryan Callahan]

Oh, yeah? Well, there's a whole articles reading. One commenter said, no, they didn't. You know, if that. If that's a robot, what are you gonna Make a retraction. No, you're not. No. If it's AI, Are you gonna. Are you gonna say something about that? Are you gonna say there's a problem? No, you're not gonna say because you. Your whole business is clickbait. And the more you have negative comments you could use to start the formulation of an article. Okay. That's how you make a living. And so don't read their articles either. Oh, this is the key. Just like, you have to just interact only with real humans.

[Joe Rogan]

I got in the practice of just being like, okay, what I'm about to say is going to be political, involves scary words. Democrat, Republican. It's going to make you uncomfortable. Don't believe me? Go to the federal register.gov that's the source material. Read it for yourself. Yeah, I'm just going to tell you what I read in there on these pages. That's the source material. Go read it. Like, that's where the land sales are happening and that's where it's outlined. The text is there. It's the journal of the government printed every day online. Go read it. And you know, for the little stuff on the podcast, I don't deal. And it's like the Montgomery Teller said, an alligator came out. I don't say that.

[Ryan Callahan]

Cows. We can review.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

Tell everybody.

[Joe Rogan]

Your podcast, Cal's week in Review. We do news, outdoor news, and we cover legislation. This fun podcast, the legislative desk. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

You have a good time with it, though, man.

[Joe Rogan]

There's some good times. There's some burnout times. Right? Yeah, Rob, like screaming into the void like, guys, this land sales coming.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Yep. Coming hot.

[Ryan Callahan]

Well, people listen to you, fortunately.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, it.

[Ryan Callahan]

It's gotta feel a little good. Doesn't it feel good that people united and listened?

[Joe Rogan]

I am trying to make it feel really good.

[Ryan Callahan]

But you're scared that's gonna happen again.

[Joe Rogan]

Because I know it's gonna happen again.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

Again. I'm wearing the same shirt that I wore on this show, talking about this same stuff six years ago or whenever we decided it was right? Like. And I do. I feel really, really good. Like, we. A lot of people came out, they threw political baggage aside and they. They talked about how important this stuff is, and it's incredibly important to me. And I thank them all from the bottom of my heart because it is so important. And one voice is just not going to do this. Right.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

So that. That does feel good. That does feel good. I just kind of wanted there to be a vote on this amendment. So all The American people can see exactly who voted for it and exactly who voted against it. Yeah. And just lay it out on the table for everybody.

[Ryan Callahan]

That would be nice. Yeah. And it'd be nice to see, like, what special interests were involved, what, what money was pushing it in that direction.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, just, we need a higher. And most people won't do this even if we had the ability, but we need more peaks behind the curtain. Right. We need more accountability. Like, so just a great example, I'm up at the state capitol in Montana. We just. Our legislative session just ended at the beginning of the year. And there's some knucklehead brings this judicial amendment up to join for the state of Montana to join Utah's lawsuit to sell off 18 and a half million acres of public land. And 115 people showed up to testify against the state. This is during. During work hours in a Montana winter. 115 people show up to testify against this. And there's some on online too, there. To be fair, originally there were 10 people signed up to testify in favor of joining the lawsuit. All 10 of those people drop off. They only give everybody two minutes to testify in front of committee. Everybody testifies, don't do this bad for Montana. Bad for all these other reasons. Professional people, some lobbyists, non profit people, but just a lot of people being like, yeah, I'm a dad and this where I take my kids, like, why would we do this? That committee approves it and sends it through.

[Ryan Callahan]

Wow.

[Joe Rogan]

And there's no accountability. You can't say, okay, how many people called your office? How many emails did you get? None.

[Ryan Callahan]

Right. Your representatives just decide against the will of the people.

[Joe Rogan]

The ones that showed up and were vocal. Right. So how do it work? And, and I understand why people do not trust this stuff. Well, like, that's a hard experience to have.

[Ryan Callahan]

It's hidden on purpose. You know, they want to be able to do what they want to do. Yeah. Then there's a lot of money that gets them elected. And once they get in there, they get these phone calls from these folks. Hey, I need you to do this.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, yeah. Montana's a good example right now. All right, We. So John Tester, who was an awesome public lands guy, Democrat, farmer out of Big Sandy Montana, that's the only political donation I've ever made in my life was to his campaign because he was awesome on public lands. He got. He lost this year. But so we have Tim Shees, our freshman senator in Montana. So he's brand new. He won. John Tester's seat. And then we have Steve Danes, who's been in for a long time. He's a senior Republican also on the Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee and Republicans. And they said, not in as strong a words as I would want, that they're not for the sale of public lands. During this fight, during the House and then during the Senate fight, again, we're not going to sell public lands. Our Republican, Ryan Zinke, also, he's a representative in the House. You know, he said, that's my San Juan Hill. He's like, I'm. I'm going to die on San Juan Hill before I vote to sell off America's public lands. Right. So I think for everybody else who's naysaying whether a Republican can do this or it's just the Democrats that are willing, I think we have a good example in Montana right now. And I'm not saying give up. I'm going to hold these people accountable and I think everybody else should, too, that these Republicans are willing to go to bat for public lands right now. And we're making it that, like, third rail issue where it's like, if you want to win in the state of Montana, you better be good on public lands.

[Ryan Callahan]

Were there any Democrats that were in favor of selling off public land?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, yeah. One of your. One of your California folks came out early in the line.

[Ryan Callahan]

I abandoned those people.

[Joe Rogan]

You know, because.

[Ryan Callahan]

I identify as a Texan now.

[Joe Rogan]

I converted.

[Ryan Callahan]

Transition.

[Joe Rogan]

Yes. I. Oh, I support you.

[Ryan Callahan]

Thank you, thank you. Thank you for seeing my truth.

[Joe Rogan]

But you know that it's just. It's another easy answer to the very hard question of affordable housing. Right. So I think there's plenty of Democrats out there.

[Ryan Callahan]

I think it's a answer.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, it's a total answer.

[Ryan Callahan]

You just want to sell the land. I don't think that any, Any interest in turning it into public housing.

[Joe Rogan]

No.

[Ryan Callahan]

Off.

[Joe Rogan]

Off is right.

[Ryan Callahan]

Put public housing in the middle of the woods. Off. No, it's not what you're doing.

[Joe Rogan]

No, no.

[Ryan Callahan]

This is one of those things that you say to people, so. Oh, it would go to the greater good.

[Joe Rogan]

Oh, my God. We've been talking about urban renewal for how long in this country. Right. Like, there's a lot of places that are not going to be good for wildlife, not going to be good for the matriculation of clean water. They're not producing clean air. Yeah. That could be great. Affordable housing or just housing in general for people. Yeah, but that's hard. It's not convenient.

[Ryan Callahan]

Exactly.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

Not convenient. That's the thing. Well, thank you for doing what you do, brother. And thank you for being such a vocal spokesperson during this time because it was really, really impactful. It made a lot. Made a lot of difference. Really did.

[Joe Rogan]

Well, I'm gonna be here for the next one, Joe.

[Ryan Callahan]

All right. Let's hope we don't have to do this again.

[Joe Rogan]

I want to change my shirt.

[Ryan Callahan]

Let's hope we don't have to do it again. But if we do, we'll do it again.

[Joe Rogan]

All right. Thanks, bud.

[Ryan Callahan]

Thank you, brother. And Cal's week in review. It's available everywhere. Apple, Spotify, all that jazz, right?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, yeah. Olcal406 on the Instagram. And if you want to do me a huge favor, the North American board chair for backcountry hunters and anglers. And we put in over a hundred and fifty thousand comments, phone calls from, from real people who used our Action Alert center during this public lands battle. And that's made a big difference because we can go into those offices and say, Hey, 2,500 people called your office today. Have you heard about public lands? So become a member, helps us out, and we'll help you out. And we're not going to give up on this stuff.

[Ryan Callahan]

I'm a lifetime member.

[Joe Rogan]

Love you.

[Ryan Callahan]

Love you, too. All right, bye, everybody.

[Joe Rogan]

Sam.