The Joe Rogan Experience #2369 – Ed Calderon (August 22, 2025)

Episode Overview

Joe Rogan welcomes security expert and former Mexican law enforcement officer Ed Calderon for a gripping, deep-dive discussion into Mexico's cartel wars, the history and psychology of violence in Mexican culture, the complex interplay between organized crime and government institutions, and the ripple effects of these conflicts on both Mexico and the United States. Calderon brings insider expertise, personal experience, and a critical eye toward both nations’ failures and complicity. The conversation covers ancient ritual practices, the evolution of cartel power, cross-border corruption, weapon and drug flows, the fentanyl epidemic, and the human cost of open and militarized borders.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Mexican History, Rituals, and Ancient Warfare

• Aztec Death Whistles and Psychological Warfare ([00:59]–[03:56])
  • Ed recounts the history and modern fascination with the Aztec death whistle, explaining its psychological use in ancient war: blowing these whistles at night to terrorize enemy camps during the "flower wars."
  • "If you heard dudes in the distance making that noise and you knew that people were after you and you heard that, you'd be like, oh, yeah." – Joe ([02:14])
• Mexico’s Layers of Ancient Civilizations ([04:01]–[06:23])
  • The Mexica (Aztecs) were late arrivals, with cities like Teotihuacan abandoned before their arrival. Ancient Mexico was a patchwork of older civilizations; being "Aztec" is just one part of a much broader heritage.
• Rituals of Pain, Sacrifice, and Early Psychedelia ([13:59]–[15:17])
  • Ed describes how many religious rites involved bloodletting and self-mutilation—visions through agony, not just through plant medicines.
  • Notable: Aztec priests sometimes pulled cords with thorns through their genitalia for ritual visions.
• Human Sacrifice and Skull Racks ([16:19]–[18:45])
  • Human sacrifice is both depicted and archaeologically evident; Ed pushes back on contemporary denialism, citing skull racks and murals as undeniable records.
  • "Well, that was that one statue that's on top of the pyramid that's like a bench. They were explaining to me that that's where they would sacrifice people." – Joe ([16:44])

2. Colonialism, Mestizaje, and Modern Mexican Identity

• The Spanish Conquest & Complex Legacy ([06:42]–[09:13])
  • Ed discusses the Spanish as both conquerors and "already mixed" people, and how Mexico became a land of mestizaje (mixing), resulting in a culture that paradoxically "hates parts of itself."
  • "We were very much taught to hate ourselves in a way. And I think that that has something to do with a lot of the psychology and the culture in Mexico." – Ed ([08:13])
• Cultural Survival & The Mayans Today ([09:13])
  • The Mayan people and culture persist in southern Mexico, busting myths of their disappearance.

3. Cartel Violence: Evolution, Brutality, and Recruitment

• Origins and Escalation of Drug Cartels ([28:43]–[32:12])
  • Cartel power began growing in the 1970s–80s, initially with heroin to supply U.S. wartime needs, evolving through cocaine and other drugs.
• Narcos, Witchcraft, and Early U.S. Awareness ([28:43]–[30:00])
  • The "Narco-Satanist" Adolfo Constanzo blended occult rituals with cartel life, giving Americans a first glimpse of the brutality.
• Militarization and Political Corruption ([33:21]–[36:11])
  • Cartel organizations are now deeply intertwined with politics (mayors, chiefs of police, governors) and local government, with overt assassinations (60 politicians killed in the 2024 cycle).
  • "Cartels are like, they have their own candidates running for office. The mayor of a city and the police chief of the city, they're all cartel members." – Ed ([34:42])
• "Hydra Effect" and Failed Drug War Policies ([32:12]–[35:19])
  • Attempts to decapitate leadership, or militarize police, only splinter cartels further, increasing chaos and brutality.

4. Brutality, Normalization, and Human Cost

• Extreme Violence as a Tool ([24:06]–[25:16]; [25:51]–[28:24])
  • Psychological operations have roots in both ancient and modern violence, with brutality meant to terrify and control rivals and the population—reflected in how the murder and display of corpses has become “normalized.”
  • “It is the evolution of what is considered normal in Mexico. People will get shot by the dozens...and people will just go back to work.” – Ed ([27:57])
• Recruitment through Social Media ([52:18]–[56:13])
  • Cartels recruit openly on TikTok, luring desperate young people with promises of high pay, then using torture and tests (including being asked to kill) to select and train soldiers.
  • "The cartel uses TikTok." – Joe ([53:05])
• Training Camps and Foreign Influence ([57:20])
  • Training by Mexican and Colombian ex-special forces, rumors of U.S. veterans involved; advanced tech and tactics imported from global war zones.

5. Innovations in Criminal Warfare

• Armored ‘Mad Max’ Tanks & Drones ([48:55]–[52:05]; [52:09]–[58:46])
  • Cartels deploy homemade tanks and drones for attacks and surveillance; technological sophistication is constantly evolving.
  • "Now you're seeing drone cartels fighting against other cartel drones." – Ed ([67:07])
• Body Disposal Methods and the Mass of the ‘Disappeared’ ([61:31]–[64:53])
  • Detailed and chilling accounts of mass body disposal techniques—industrial-level burning, chemical dissolution—explain why missing persons numbers vastly understate reality.

6. US-Mexico Relations: Guns, Corruption, Covert Ops

• Weapons Flow & Operation Fast and Furious ([99:54]–[106:31])
  • U.S. weapons—sometimes with paperwork still attached—end up in cartel hands, often as a consequence of failed “gun walking” ATF operations.
  • "My friends got killed with those guns." – Ed ([100:53])
  • Joe and Ed speculate on the true rationale behind the US allowing arms shipments, hinting at covert support for favored factions.
• Cooperation and Complicity: Cartels & the State ([117:28]–[118:03])
  • Ed argues the U.S. government sometimes channels communication and cooperation through cartels, not Mexican authorities, for border security.
• CIA, Drug Running, and Deep State Conspiracies ([107:55]–[116:14])
  • Extended references to proven cases of CIA involvement with drug trafficking, both historic (Iran-Contra, Freeway Ricky Ross) and current.

7. Fentanyl & Human Trafficking

• The Rise of Fentanyl and Changing Drug Economies ([125:38]–[129:22])
  • The opioid crisis in the U.S. led cartels to switch to poppy and then augment weak heroin with fentanyl—first in local Mexican test markets, then for export.
  • Strict cartel controls ensure fentanyl is not distributed inside Mexico—dealers face death if caught; contrast with relative impunity in the U.S.
• Chinese Involvement—a Geopolitical Chessboard ([129:22]–[133:21])
  • Most fentanyl precursors come from China, with Ed suggesting state intelligence could hardly be ignorant of the scale of these operations.
• Human & Child Trafficking ([140:10]–[142:34])
  • Joe and Ed discuss the horror and complexity of child trafficking, with young kids drugged and moved across borders, noting both the scope of the trade and the bureaucratic cruelty of “overcorrection” deportations.

8. Immigration, Identity, and Overcorrection

• Border Politics—Both Sides Guilty ([143:41]–[153:22])
  • The back-and-forth between open borders and mass deportations; mass removals under both Democratic and Republican administrations, with Obama deporting over 3 million people and Bush over 5 million.
  • Both agree: U.S. policies have been fundamentally hypocritical and driven by political expediency, not compassion nor security.
  • “It’s an overcorrection... People become numbers.” – Joe ([150:01])
• The Human Cost of Policy ([147:22]–[149:13])
  • Deportation of individuals raised in the U.S. since childhood is common; many are dumped into “home countries” where they don’t speak the language.

9. Mexico’s Economic Potential, Gentrification, and Future

• Mexico as Industrial Powerhouse Under Threat ([92:00]–[94:13], [178:39]–[179:38])
  • Ed predicts Mexico is poised for a manufacturing boom ("the next China"), yet is at risk of derailing under cartel violence and the lure of socialism.
• Gentrification and Role Swap ([176:34]–[177:37])
  • Ironically, Mexicans are experiencing gentrification in their own cities by incoming Americans.
• Shared Destiny and Need for Cooperation ([181:36]–[182:05])
  • Both men agree that the solution can only come through deep cooperation and mutual understanding, not militarized confrontation.
  • “I don’t see a future without both of our countries just, like, figuring things out together.” – Ed ([182:03])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Ancient Psychological Warfare:
  "If you heard dudes in the distance making that noise and you knew that people were after you and you heard that, you'd be like, oh, yeah." – Joe ([02:14])

• On Internalized Shame and Mestizaje:
  "We were very much taught to hate ourselves in a way. And I think that that has something to do with a lot of the psychology and the culture in Mexico." – Ed ([08:13])

• On Political Corruption:
  "Cartels are like, they have their own candidates running for office. ...They’re all cartel members." – Ed ([34:42])

• On Weapon Flows:
  "My participation in all this was... a bunch of my friends got killed with those guns." – Ed ([100:53])

• On Cartel Recruitment on TikTok:
  "The cartel uses TikTok." – Joe ([53:05])

• On the Futility of Militarized Solutions:
  "You just abducted the head of the Sinaloa cartel and brought him to Texas. And all, and all that did didn't quell cartel violence in Mexico. It didn't end the Sinaloa cartel. It just made a giant war..." – Ed ([180:01])

• On US–Mexico Interdependence:
  "We are going to need each other more than we think in the coming years. And open warfare between both countries is not... it’s not going to lead to anything..." – Ed ([182:05])

• On Weaponized Immigration Policy:
  “It’s an overcorrection... People become numbers.” – Joe ([150:01])

Key Timestamps for Critical Segments

• [00:59] – Discussion of Aztec death whistle origins and psychological warfare.
• [16:19] – Aztec human sacrifice, denialism, and archaeological evidence.
• [28:43] – Onset of cartel brutality and the rise of occult violence.
• [33:21] – Cartel influence in local and national Mexican politics.
• [52:18] – Cartel recruitment and propaganda on TikTok.
• [61:31] – Industrial-scale body disposal; reality of Mexico’s “disappeared.”
• [99:54] – Operation Fast and Furious, and direct U.S. responsibility for cartel firepower.
• [125:38] – Fentanyl’s rise and the economic drivers behind it.
• [140:10] – Human and child trafficking along the border.
• [143:41] – Immigration absurdities and the human cost of policy swings.
• [181:36] – Ed and Joe’s closing: The only way forward is US-Mexico cooperation.

Tone and Language

• The discussion is candid, intense, and at times darkly humorous. Ed's delivery is matter-of-fact and pragmatic, mixing street wisdom with systemic critique. Joe uses incredulity, comic relief, and straightforward questions to ground and clarify the conversation for listeners.

Summary

Ed Calderon's return to the JRE delivers a devastating, wide-ranging diagnosis of Mexico’s criminal insurgency, its deep roots in both pre-Columbian and colonial violence, and its present entanglement with politics, economics, and culture on both sides of the border. The episode connects ancient history to contemporary brutality, exposes the logistical and psychological machinery of modern cartels, and reveals the unintended consequences of U.S. policy—often complicit, sometimes naive, usually ineffective. Both speakers ultimately agree that militarized solutions and blame games are dead ends—only binational cooperation and deeper cultural understanding offer hope.