The Joe Rogan Experience #2392 – John Kiriakou (October 10, 2025)

Episode Overview

This episode features a wide-ranging and candid conversation between Joe Rogan and John Kiriakou, former CIA officer and whistleblower. The central theme is Kiriakou’s inside perspective on the CIA’s post-9/11 torture program, the U.S. intelligence community, government accountability, and the personal consequences he suffered after exposing the program. The discussion expands to broader issues: the structure and culture of federal agencies, the limits of government transparency, whistleblower protections, surveillance, and contemporary U.S. and global politics.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Life and Career in the CIA

• Replacing Mike Baker in Athens:
  Kiriakou recounts taking over for Mike Baker in Athens, highlighting the threat landscape featuring Greek and international terrorist groups.

  • "Athens was a tough place at the time. The American government spent more money on security in Athens than they spent anywhere else in the world, including Beirut." (00:14)

• Need-to-Know Culture:
  The CIA strictly compartmentalizes information. Even those executing operations often have no knowledge of who/what/where beyond their direct assignments.

  • "Your job is to take him from point A to point B, not to become his friend..." (04:08)

2. Encounter with and Rejection of the Torture Program

• Emergence of ‘Enhanced Interrogation Techniques’:
  In May 2002, Kiriakou is asked if he wants to be trained in 'enhanced interrogation techniques.' He refuses, citing moral, ethical, and legal objections.

  • "Let's call a spade a spade. This is a torture program. Torture is a slippery slope." (06:08)
  • "I have a moral and ethical problem with this. I think it’s illegal, and I don’t want any part of it." (07:58)

• Punishment for Refusing Torture Training:
  He was ostracized:

  • "I had displayed a shocking lack of commitment to counterterrorism." (08:08)
    Only later did he get a promotion out of cycle.

• Effectiveness and Methods of “Enhanced” Interrogation:
  Kiriakou details a spectrum—some methods were not torture (e.g., “belly slap”), but others (cold cell, waterboarding, sleep deprivation) killed multiple detainees.

  • "At least two [died] with that technique [cold cell]...." (11:35)
  • "With Abu Zubaydah, his heart actually stopped during a waterboarding session, and the doctor revived him just so he could be tortured more. It’s like...didn't the Germans do that?" (11:40)

3. U.S. Torture Program: History, Failure, and Whistleblowing

• MKUltra Legacy:
  They discuss the CIA’s earlier mind-control experiments and their lingering impact and lost documentation.

  • “Only about 20% of the MKUltra documents still exist. So we don't really know exactly what was learned in that program.” (12:21)

• The “Deep State” and Institutional Unaccountability:
  Long-tenured CIA officials can outlast presidents, asserting the reality of the “deep state.”

  • "Presidents come and go, and these guys are there forever.... They just slow roll it, wait until he leaves." (15:40)

• Failure and Counterproductive Results of Torture:
  Torture did not yield actionable intelligence; standard FBI methods were more effective.

  • "No, none of [the torture] was effective... It was thanks to Ali Soufan's treating Abu Zubaydah with respect [that we got valuable intelligence]." (21:44, 25:01)

  Torture caused detainees to go silent, reversing previous cooperation.

• The Drive for Torture:
  Kiriakou attributes it to a desire for revenge and institutional inertia—embodied by the contract psychologists James Mitchell and Bruce Jessen.

  • "We paid those guys $108 million to say, 'oh, we think you should torture people.’" (28:02)

4. Whistleblowing and the Consequences

• Going Public:
  After leaving the CIA, Kiriakou was accused of torture by media sources and, perceiving himself about to be scapegoated by the White House, did an interview exposing the program.

  • "I decided in the interview, whatever he was going to ask me, I was just going to tell the truth... the CIA was torturing its prisoners. Torture was official U.S. government policy... approved by the President himself." (32:19)

• Vindictive Prosecution:
  After initial investigation led to no charges, a vendetta by John Brennan (with tacit White House support) led to fabricated espionage charges and, eventually, Kiriakou’s conviction under the Intelligence Identities Protection Act.

  • "They offered me 45 years… She said, 'take this deal, Mr. Kiriakou, and you may live to meet your grandchildren.'" (42:33)

  He ultimately took a plea deal for 2.5 years in prison.

• Institutional Retaliation:
  The system put Kiriakou in a harsher prison than promised, making his time as difficult as possible at Brennan's personal request.

5. Life After Prison

• Post-Prison Isolation:
  Kiriakou recounts struggling with anger, poverty, and finding work—constantly rejected due to felony status.

  • "I got rejected by McDonald’s, by Safeway, by Target, by Uber. We don’t hire felons." (64:20)

• Restoration of Reputation:
  The Senate torture report vindicated him, confirming everything he said. John McCain publicly acknowledged his whistleblowing as essential for public knowledge.

  • “If it weren’t for John Kiriakou, the American people would never have had any idea what the CIA was doing in their name.” (64:34)

• Advocacy and New Career:
  Kiriakou found work as a writer, consultant, and professor. He helped draft whistleblower protections adopted by the EU. He now aligns with civil libertarians and populists across party lines, forming bonds with activists like Tucker Carlson and Judge Napolitano.

• Prison Experiences:
  Vivid, darkly humorous stories from prison: run-ins with Aryan gangs, Mafia bosses, and more, as well as clear evidence of institutional attempts to “set him up” for extended sentences.

  • "It was like living in the Twilight Zone. The stress will kill you. You see people break down all the time." (75:40)

6. Broader Systemic Issues: Deep State, Law Enforcement, Media

• Culture of ‘Setting Up’ Suspects:
  Extensive discussion of FBI entrapment tactics, as in the Route 82 bridge plot and January 6th.

  • "There are well-documented cases where literally everybody in the meeting is an FBI agent." (91:43)

• Weaponized Legal System:
  The tendency of prosecutors and agents to “get” people to build careers, regardless of actual criminality.

• CIA and the Deep State:
  Presidents come and go; entrenched bureaucracies shape policy and can wait out elected leadership.

  • "There is a deep state... it's unelected and it's generally unaccountable." (16:56)

• Failures of Oversight and Propaganda:
  Through mechanisms like the NDAA, the government legalized propagandizing its own citizenry.

  • "Now the government can produce any propaganda that it wants and foist it on the American people. Thank you, Barack Obama. Now I don't even know if the news that I'm reading is real or not." (133:51)

• Media Dysfunction:
  The mainstream media is “bought and paid for,” with independent journalists targeted for actual investigative work.

• Entrenched Special Interests:
  AIPAC’s influence and the lack of Foreign Agent Registration Act requirements for Israel lobbyists versus others.

  • "I've never understood why AIPAC doesn't have to register as a foreign agent when everybody else does..." (144:44)

7. Modern Political Issues & Foreign Policy

• Israel/Palestine and U.S. Politics:
  Kiriakou critiques the unaccountable and overwhelming pro-Israel lobbying in Congress and its undermining of U.S. interests and open debate.

• China’s Long-Game Strategy:
  He expresses concern about the U.S. wasting resources on global interventions while China builds infrastructure and exerts influence more efficiently.

  • "The Chinese government sits and waits for the U.S. to self-destruct." (117:08)

• Information Warfare:
  Explores how social media, bots, and AI are used to shape narrative, polarize Americans, and sometimes attack whistleblowers or dissenters (including via ChatGPT).

  • "ChatGPT and these other chatbots are very easy to influence... Every single one of the links [it provided] was fake." (121:53, 126:15)

• Ukraine and Russia:
  Belief that the conflict will grind on until the inevitable: Ukraine loses territory, Russia pressures a settlement.

• U.S. Political System, Populism, and Corruption:
  Kiriakou and Rogan bemoan insider culture, lack of accountability, and both see hope in the rise of populism as a check on elite control.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• Calling Out Enhanced Interrogation as Torture:
  "Let's call a spade a spade. This is a torture program. They can use whatever euphemism they want, but this is a torture program, and torture is a slippery slope."
  — John Kiriakou (06:08)

• On Effectiveness of FBI vs. Torture:
  "If there's one thing that the FBI is really good at, it's interrogations... And then...he [Abu Zubaydah] opened up and he gave us actionable intelligence that saved American lives..."
  — John Kiriakou (21:44)

• CIA’s Internal Power:
  "Presidents come and go, and these guys are there forever... If the president wants them to do something that they don't want to do, they just slow roll it..."
  — John Kiriakou (15:40)

• On Institutional Retaliation:
  "We paid those guys $108 million to say, 'oh, we think you should torture people.' Here are the torture techniques. Just let us know when you want us to start."
  — John Kiriakou (28:02)

• On His Prosecution:
  "They charged me with five felonies, three counts of espionage. They waited until I went bankrupt, and then they dropped the espionage charges."
  — John Kiriakou (34:00)

• On Prison Survival:
  "It was like living in the Twilight Zone. The stress, the stress will kill you. You see people break down all the time..."
  — John Kiriakou (75:40)

• On the Deep State:
  "There is a deep state. You don’t have to call it the deep state... The fact is it exists and it’s unelected and it’s generally unaccountable to anybody."
  — John Kiriakou (16:56)

• Media & Propaganda:
  "The only thing that's real media in this country are independent journalists... mostly people who worked for large corporations and either were fired or had to leave because of their own ethics and morals."
  — Joe Rogan (101:06)

• On Legacy & Vindication:
  "If it weren’t for John Kiriakou, the American people would never have had any idea what the CIA was doing in their name."
  — John McCain (as cited by Kiriakou) (64:34)

Important Timestamps

• 00:14 — Introduction to Kiriakou’s CIA career and Athens posting.
• 06:08 — Kiriakou first hears about 'enhanced interrogation' and internally labels it torture.
• 08:49 — Kiriakou is the only one to refuse torture training; career repercussions begin.
• 11:34-12:04 — Describing fatal torture methods (cold cell, hypothermia).
• 21:44 — Detailed account of why FBI methods worked and CIA torture failed.
• 28:02 — Psychologists’ role; $108 million torture contract.
• 32:19 — Kiriakou decides to go public as a whistleblower.
• 42:33 — Walk-through of legal prosecution and plea deal under Brennan/Obama.
• 64:20 — Rejected from jobs as a felon; financial/occupational isolation.
• 75:42 — Prison anecdotes, stress, and attempted setups.
• 101:06 — Discussion on the media’s failures and the value and dangers faced by independent journalists.
• 109:14 — Dashti Laili massacre and failure of political accountability.
• 117:08 — The Chinese long-game; America’s vulnerabilities.
• 121:53 & 126:15 — Attack bots and AI-generated false info about Kiriakou online.
• 143:40 — Discussion of Israeli settlements, U.S. political influence, and the real estate agenda in Palestine.

Summary Tone

Candid, occasionally darkly humorous, and often sobering. Rogan’s tone is incredulous but respectful; Kiriakou combines tension, bitterness, and resolve—a survivor’s perspective resisting cynicism but fully aware of the system’s dark realities.

Final Takeaways

• The U.S.'s post-9/11 torture program not only failed to generate actionable intelligence but institutional dynamics ensured it was pursued and protected by powerful figures at the expense of truth and legality.
• Whistleblowing in America comes at a staggering personal cost, with prosecutions targeting the messenger and the system collaborating to break dissenters.
• Many of America’s power structures function independently of—not for—the electorate, with entrenched interests, unaccountable bureaucracies, and culture incentivizing self-protection.
• The only antidotes, Kiriakou and Rogan believe, are individual courage, cross-partisan alliances, constant public vigilance, and independent journalism—though the system is still stacked against those who challenge it.

Listeners gain a rare, riveting insider’s view of intelligence, power, and resistance—and a warning: without accountability and transparency, the greatest threat to American values may be domestic, not foreign.