#2393 - Bryan Callen

Summary

The Joe Rogan Experience #2393 – Bryan Callen (Oct 15, 2025)

Main Theme:
Joe Rogan and comedian Bryan Callen dive into an energetic, wide-ranging conversation that bounces from hilarious personal anecdotes to deep reflections on discipline, addiction, physical resilience, politics, social movements, and the meaning of self-improvement. Woven throughout are discussions of martial arts, stand-up comedy, controversial social issues, media narratives, global conflicts, and the nature of modern podcasting.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Hilarious Anecdotes & Personal Failures

[00:12–01:08]

• Bryan recounts a story about accidentally injuring a dove at a shooting range with Logan Paul—Logan “heals” the bird with “Jesus energy.”
  • "His Jesus energy…he held it in both hands…I swear to God, the thing just put its wing back in and flew out of his hands." (Bryan Callen, 00:43)

[01:25–02:38]

• Competence and male stubbornness: both joke about struggling with child seats and assembling children’s furniture, refusing to read instructions.
  • "What is it about men that we don't read directions?...I don't need this. No, I'll figure this out." (Jamie, 01:41)
  • Bryan admits to giving up and hiring a friend ("I'll give you $300 to come…put this bed together. He builds houses." 02:24)

2. Training, Longevity, and Notable Athletes

[02:43–05:02]

• Warm-ups and injury prevention:
  • Both stress the importance of meticulous warmup routines for longevity in sports and daily life.
    • "My back is actually good because I've mastered the art of warming up." (Bryan, 02:57)
    • Joe shares Manny Pacquiao’s intense warmup habits and compares methods with Olympic athletes.
• Callen describes wrestling “monsters” at 58 and the role of proper prep.

[05:06–07:33]

• Joe brings up an 80-year-old woman who completed an Ironman Triathlon—using it as an example of willpower and daily discipline.
  • "That's just will. That's just having an iron will. The problem with that is it will consume your life." (Jamie, 06:45)
• They discuss David Goggins, questioning if people like him are “monks or addicts.”

3. Addiction, Discipline, and Personal Transformation

[08:00–13:41]

• How addiction manifests and the difficulties of overcoming it—colorful case studies featuring Charlie Sheen, Artie Lange, and others.

  • _"My friend who did heroin…Artie said…as his head hit the pillow, he went, 'I'm in trouble.'" (Bryan, 08:21)

• Discipline alone doesn’t always solve addiction—sometimes, the brain needs “sobriety to be more pleasurable.”

• Joe shares his motivation: doing something difficult every day, often wrestling, to stay grounded and focused.

  "The one thing…the only thing that's changed about you is you've gotten more peace of mind…you said to me, 'I like to do something really hard every day so it reminds me what a [man] I am.'"
  —Bryan recalling a conversation with Joe (13:41)

4. The Value of Skill, Process, and Self-Improvement

[14:57–18:09]

• Both stress the importance of deeply engaging in a craft or process (music, comedy, martial arts) to learn about oneself and mature emotionally.
• They joke about how, lacking a true skill, people project individuality through “accoutrement”—tats, hair dye, or political signaling.
  • “If you don't ever try to get good at anything, you're the same douchebag you were when you were in high school, but now you're 48 instead of 16.” (Jamie, 16:11)

[18:26–23:44]

• Bryan riffs on protests being made up of “losers and FBI agents,” mocking the performativity of modern activism.
• Both ridicule British “annoyance” laws and recount hunting and shooting trips in the UK, sharing stories of British sarcasm (“Are you a vegan?”).

5. Sports, Boxing, and the Importance of Technique

[25:03–64:07]

• Deep-dive into martial arts history and technique; talk stirs from archery and Mongol warriors to modern MMA (referencing Shavkat and injury recovery).
• Joe and Bryan discuss technique versus brute strength in MMA and jiu jitsu, with frequent references to UFC athletes and old-school boxing.
  • "Technique is the king of all…" (Jamie, 50:15)
  • Specific breakdowns: recent UFC fights (Oliveira vs. Gamrot), wrestler adaptation to jiu jitsu, and the value of “absorbing what is useful” (Bruce Lee philosophy).
• Extended segment on boxing legends (Crawford, Canelo, Duran) and the mental chess involved at the highest levels.
  • “Fighting, at the highest level…is two people…trying to solve…How can I cut you off before you finish that pattern?” (Bryan, 57:21)

6. Social & Political Commentary

[67:24–82:32]

• How phone/social media addiction is engineered, and how dopamine technology has “turned us all into addicts.”
  • “If there's a drug that made you stare at your hand all day, you'd avoid that.” (Jamie, 67:54)
• Skepticism about reductionist good-vs-evil podcast narratives, extreme partisanship, and the dangers of team identity.
  • “People that aren’t good at anything in life…get completely captured by politics.” (Jamie, 69:46)
• Lengthy dialogue on recent Middle East diplomacy, US presidents’ true legacies (Trump, Obama), and geopolitics, often with humor and cynicism.

Epstein & Institutional Secrecy [82:32–88:51]

• Whistleblowers, blackmail, institutional coverups—the duo trade speculation (with humor) about Jeffrey Epstein’s connections and the lack of transparency.

7. Culture Wars, Social Media, and Transgender Narratives

[89:21–106:41]

• Dissection of how social engineering works (foreign influence like “China pushing transgender ideology,” deliberate outrage cycles).
• Analyze controversial statements and online misinformation—pulling up video evidence and emphasizing the risks of out-of-context snippets.

Trans Issues, Female Spaces, and Sports [103:16–106:41]

• Both defend the need for honest (not dogmatic) debate about trans women in sports and spaces, warning against performativity and religion-like rhetoric.
  • “Try to do something that aligns with your political ideology.” (Jamie, 14:57)
  • “That’s a religion…the way they go along party lines.” (Jamie, 106:41)

8. Heritage, History, and Hypocrisy

[111:00–121:59]

• Deep look at the way legal systems and university admissions have discriminated (against Asians and Jews historically); call for meritocracies but with sincere support for disenfranchised communities.
• Discuss statistical realities of fatherlessness, the truth about neighborhoods, and confronting uncomfortable realities.

9. Science, Health, Bias, and Misinformation

[119:01–122:05]

• Examine the shifting landscape of medical and nutrition “truths” (echinacea, seed oils) and how much of what’s in medical science is later proven wrong.
  • “Huberman was saying…50%…of what is in the medical literature is incorrect.” (Jamie, 118:31)
• Funding bias in scientific studies and the history of drugs like heroin, acetaminophen, Tylenol, and the risk vs. benefit of various substances.

Drug Legalization and Addiction [158:58–166:48]

• Explore the cartel problem in Mexico, alternatives to the War on Drugs (legalization, cutting deals, or waging war).
• Joe advocates for ibogaine, ozempic, and psychedelics for addiction treatment; both discuss the need to address the root psychological cause.

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Memorable Quotes

“If you don’t ever try to get good at anything, you’re the same douchebag you were when you were in high school, but now you’re 48 instead of 16.”
— Joe Rogan (16:11)

“That’s just will. Iron will. The problem with that is it will consume your life…if you want to find peace in the punishment that you give yourself, like David Goggins does.”
— Jamie (Joe Rogan) (06:45)

“Technique is the king of all…in jiu jitsu it’s even more important, because there’s more aspects to the game.”
— Jamie (Joe Rogan) (50:15)

“They mask it with a good vocabulary. Or with accoutrement, as they say in France—which means dyeing your hair blue, or getting all kinds of tattoos.”
— Bryan Callen (16:24)

“If there’s a drug that made you stare at your hand all day, you’d avoid that.”
— Jamie (Joe Rogan) (67:54)

On Social Media & Podcasters

"I'm always wary of that reductionist idea…There are sometimes good guys and bad guys…but you gotta be careful about getting sucked into those narratives because sometimes it's not that simple."
— Bryan Callen (69:10)

“People just get so tribal, and the reason why they do it is because they don’t have anything else in their life…politics becomes your whole identity.”
— Joe Rogan (71:17)

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Insights on Comedy & The Austin Scene

[169:05–end]

• Joe and Bryan defend the new Austin comedy scene (“mothership”) against critics, emphasizing its diversity, opportunity, and supportive culture.
  • "People are funny in all shapes and sizes, from all walks of life...it's the United Nations, dude." (Bryan, 173:33)
• Details about Bryan Callen’s new special “False Gods,” and his live show “Acting Off” at Sunset Strip, featuring gamified acting among local comics.

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Engaging Timestamps (Highlights)

• [00:43] Bryan’s “dove healing” story with Logan Paul
• [02:24] Callen hires a friend to assemble a child’s bed
• [05:06] The 80-year-old Ironman athlete and Goggins
• [14:57] Daily difficult tasks as a life philosophy
• [39:20] “Squat University” and proper athletic training
• [50:15] “Technique is the king of all…” (MMA/judo)
• [57:21] Boxing as pattern-recognition and high-level mind games
• [67:54] Addiction to social media (“If there’s a drug…”)
• [106:41] “That’s a religion… it’s like party lines.”
• [118:31] Science is often wrong (“50%…incorrect”)
• [165:11] Joe on ibogaine, ozempic, and treating addiction

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Tone & Style

Rogan and Callen’s vibe is warm, irreverent, and real—ping-ponging between comedic mockery, raw honesty, and unexpected empathy. They challenge cultural scripts, wink at conspiracy, and never take themselves too seriously.

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In Summary

This episode is a whirlwind of riotous stories, practical wisdom, and mature reflection. Rogan and Callen share lessons about aging and training, skewer the absurdities of culture wars, champion self-improvement, and critique both right- and left-wing dogmas. Along the way, they pay homage to the resilience required to master anything—be it comedy, martial arts, or a meaningful life in an overwhelming world.

Transcript

[Brian Callum]

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

[Jamie]

The Joe Rogan Experience.

[Brian Callum]

Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.

[Jamie]

Let me tell you.

[Brian Callum]

I was at. I was at Taren Tactical, and I was shooting, and I. And Logan. Paul was there, and I just met him. And I hit a dove. No, I grazed a dove somehow, right?

[Jamie]

Oh, no.

[Brian Callum]

And the dove is dying there. Yeah. And I. So I'm Logan, and I come up and I grab the dove, and I'm gonna wring its neck so it doesn't suffer. And Logan. Logan goes, wait, hold. Let me just see it. And he takes it in his hands. And instead of me wringing its neck because I don't want it to suffer, I swear to God. It was all. You know, the wing is like this. His. His Jesus energy. His. His. Whatever his energy is. He held it in both hands. I swear to God, the thing kind of just went. Just kind of put its wing back in and just flew out of his hands. And I was like, all right, well.

[Jamie]

You were gonna kill it.

[Brian Callum]

I was gonna kill it. I was like, all right.

[Jamie]

They are delicious.

[Brian Callum]

Maybe that's Logan's celebrity power.

[Jamie]

Do you know that? It's like the most hunted bird in North America.

[Brian Callum]

Listen. Pigeon's delicious. And I was just hunting them in London, sir. On the outskirts of London. I just got back.

[Jamie]

I was like, in the city. I don't think you're allowed to do that. But this is why.

[Brian Callum]

This is why I can't do anything. Look at me.

[Jamie]

What's the matter?

[Brian Callum]

I don't know how to do this. Help.

[Jamie]

It's like a door. You open the. Yeah, like that. I know it's weird, all right.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah, but, you know, they're all different. I get pissed when I can't figure out. Little like that. Yeah. Like a child seat. I'm like, okay. And I'll go. I look at my wife, I go, you do it. And I just throw my hands up.

[Jamie]

What is it about men that we don't read directions? I never read directions. I open the box, I look at this fucking bullshit. Put that aside. I don't need this. No, I'll figure this out.

[Brian Callum]

My. My wife. Remember one time when my kid was really young, I had to put together a child's bed. And I'm like, I can do it. And I go to put the bed together. And. Well, I couldn't. I couldn't because there were directions. And I was like, the screws. You know, they number. The screws.

[Jamie]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Brian Callum]

And I'm sitting there like this, and I'm making noises. I'm going. My wife is like, what's wrong with her? Stay out of the room. Apparently, she gave me the. Get out of the room. I got this.

[Jamie]

You should do hard cardio before you put together any child.

[Brian Callum]

No, this is what I did.

[Jamie]

Just get calm.

[Brian Callum]

I called. I called my buddy, and I go, I'll give you $300 to come over here right now, put this bed together. He builds houses. He comes over, he go, it's four slats in a frame. Kind of a moron. Yeah. He couldn't believe it. I was like, shut up.

[Jamie]

Well, that's different, though. That's a guy who's used to using his hands.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

Not a delicate man like yourself.

[Brian Callum]

That's correct, sir. I have soft. I have soft hands. I'm, by the way, fresh. If I have some marks on my face, I'm fresh. Fresh from the. From the mat of doing takedowns at 58. That's a good time. Oh, it's a good.

[Jamie]

How's your back? You all right?

[Brian Callum]

You know what, dude? My back is actually good because I. I've mastered the art of warming up.

[Jamie]

Oh, that's good. That's smart.

[Brian Callum]

I'm pedantic about it. Like, they make fun of me, and I'm like, off.

[Jamie]

Yeah, you should.

[Brian Callum]

I do my bird dogs, my fire hydrants.

[Jamie]

You know, Muhammad Ali used to work out for. We used to warm up, rather, for an hour before he worked out. Yeah, I watched that.

[Brian Callum]

That's how you stay from getting injured.

[Jamie]

I did this thing with Tosh. Daniel. Tosh and I at. At Wild Card Gym where Tosh was getting punched by Manny, and I was like, help. It was like some silly sketch we were doing, and. But Manny was there for a real workout day and just kindly allowed tosh, like, 20 minutes of his time. And they did this little thing. Um, but I got to see Manny work out. It is very meticulous. It's all like these. He's working out with rubber bands, where it's, like, short little movements, and. And it's all these twisting and turning, and he's got guys stretching them. He's like, you know, he's moving around. Like, everything's very slow, very. The body warmed up first.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

His first couple rounds of even, we watch him hit the Mets. His first couple rounds of even hitting the Mets, it's like, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap.

[Brian Callum]

Just move.

[Jamie]

Yeah, Just get everything. Get everything flowing.

[Brian Callum]

I watched Olympic ice skaters. I was. I was doing a gig at Laugh Boston, and they had some Huge tournament. And this woman was in there, she was apparently an Olympian. Watching the way she warms up like, like, like her ankles rubbing down all these little details. I was like, that looks boring as shit.

[Jamie]

But it is.

[Brian Callum]

You have to do it.

[Jamie]

You have to. Otherwise you wind up all busted up and broken.

[Brian Callum]

But that, it allows me to actually wrestle, to be 58 and actually shooting single and double legs against the monsters. And that's silly. And I'm with, you know, Sean Apperson or Tyson Mendez, those guys at Archetype.

[Jamie]

Boxing, they're just all muscle and you're wrestling with them.

[Brian Callum]

Yes, sir.

[Jamie]

Okay.

[Brian Callum]

And then Tim Kennedy, those guys getting.

[Jamie]

Hurt, trying to get hurt.

[Brian Callum]

Well, well, I excused.

[Jamie]

What if. Why you feel pain?

[Brian Callum]

My, my advantage is I just go, I make a, I make a weird noise and I fall. Yeah, woman. I go like this and I tap or I fall down.

[Jamie]

Did you see that video I sent you of that 80 year old woman who completed an iron man? Yes, 80 years old. She completed an Ironman triathlon which is, I think it's 120 miles on a bike and then it's a marathon. And how, what is, how long is the swim that I sent it to you, Jamie?

[Brian Callum]

I think it's 2 miles. 2.6 miles.

[Jamie]

That.

[Brian Callum]

It's crazy.

[Jamie]

So crazy. She's 80 years old.

[Brian Callum]

But I think if you keep, if you do something every day like that, I, I actually think you can. Yes, it's. It's just keep a lot like, like what people never do is they, they don't.

[Jamie]

Natalie, I don't know how to say your last name. Grabow. Grabow.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

Either way, Natalie, you're a monster. Amazing. 80 years old, she became the oldest woman to finish the Ironman World Championship. That is so incredible.

[Brian Callum]

Point 8km swimming.

[Jamie]

Wow. So whatever that is in miles, that's like 180 kilometers.

[Brian Callum]

Miles is like 5,000 miles.

[Jamie]

I think what they're doing this kill. I mean this must be a UK website that's covering this because I think it's all done in miles. I believe.

[Brian Callum]

I've never had an interest in endurance stuff. Do you?

[Jamie]

I have an interest in it. But here's the thing. It doesn't matter, Jamie. It's a lot.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

Anyway, this, whatever this lady did, it's a lot. It's too much. Incredible. We don't need to break it down exactly to miles, but I'm pretty sure it's like 120 mile bike ride and a full marathon. I mean at 80 all in a day and a two mile, whatever. Swim. What the.

[Brian Callum]

I don't know.

[Jamie]

LA is a beast.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah, You're. It's a beat. That's crazy.

[Jamie]

That's just Will. That's just having a iron will. The problem with that is it will consume your life.

[Brian Callum]

Yep.

[Jamie]

That would. That. That obsession with endurance will consume your life. And you can let it do that if that's what you're into. If, like, you want to find peace in the punishment that you give yourself, like David Goggins does. When I talk to him, he's so crazy because he's doing all this stuff by himself for no reason.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

He goes, I'm getting lessons. He's telling me he's, like, learning things, and he's not bullshitting. No. Like, he's. He really. It's like he's like a strange type of a monk that we've never had before.

[Brian Callum]

So let me ask you the question. Is. Is it a. Is he a monk, which he probably is. Or is he an addict? And you. Maybe you can be both, you know?

[Jamie]

Yeah, you could be both. I think monks are addicts, too, because they're addicted to being calm. They don't want any women in their life. They don't want any possessions. Like, dude, I'm good.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

I'm addicted to just being like this.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah, they. They're doing this. This neuroplasticity, kind of like these scans, and they found that the monks that sit around and meditate on joy, you know, they, like, think of the joyous things that. That part of their brain expands. Okay.

[Jamie]

I mean, they should talk to Charlie Sheen, because he was telling me a story about how he got his dick sucked while he was smoking crack for the very first time. And it was the greatest experience of his life.

[Brian Callum]

Oh, yeah.

[Jamie]

He said to this day, nothing stopped him. The greatest experience of his life was the first time he smoked crack. A girl was giving him head.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah, well, you know.

[Jamie]

So tell that monk to go fuck himself.

[Brian Callum]

My friend who did heroin, he. Well, I may as well say it. Artie Lang. Artie said. He said it on the podcast. He said he did heroin the first time, and as his head hit the pillow, he went, I'm in trouble.

[Jamie]

Oh, yeah.

[Brian Callum]

This is just. I'm gonna chase this dragon.

[Jamie]

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[Brian Callum]

That'll. For some people, that shit'll grab you.

[Jamie]

Oh, I think for most people that grabs you. I think you have to be like averse to doing things that will fuck your life up. Like you have to have like an automatic. Like maybe you grew up around alcoholics or something like that. Or you saw I didn't none of my like, I didn't have like anyone in my family that ruined their life with alcohol. But I did have friends that had close relatives that I saw become addicted to cocaine. And I saw this when I was in high school. So I got like really scared of addiction. And I also, when I was working construction, there was this fucking dude that I was friends with who was really cool. He was an older guy I mean, older than me, and I was like, 16 at the time, 17. And he was probably in his early 30s, but he couldn't keep his shit together. He just couldn't stop drinking. And he would. He would be good for a while and then he would start drinking again. And, man, he was so funny. He was so fun. He was, like, such a cool guy. And he was a drummer in a band, and the band just, you know, never kind of. His name is Robbie, and the band never kind of fucking got it together. But he was like. Like, he could have been my best friend if, like, we were the same age and we were hanging out together.

[Brian Callum]

It's just not sustainable.

[Jamie]

But I was watching a man who was a carpenter. He was a Finnish carpenter and, you know, very talented carpenter, but he would just ruin his life every few months.

[Brian Callum]

With coke or with both. Yeah, both.

[Jamie]

Booze and coke. But booze would start it off. It would be. You know, he'd all of a sudden be drinking a Budweiser, and then it was off to the races.

[Brian Callum]

I don't. That's the thing about addiction, you know, I. Or just anything in life, if you want to be good at something, I actually don't think you can do it necessarily. I mean, some people can maybe, but I don't know how long. When you say. When you talk about discipline, when you say, I'm just not going to do it, you. You. That works for some people, but I don't think it works for people like that. I think what they have to do.

[Jamie]

Their brains wired. Yeah. Yeah.

[Brian Callum]

They have to figure out a way to make sobriety more pleasurable than the other thing. And that's hard.

[Jamie]

Well, Jimmy Norton, you know, his mom famously said when he was, like, hooked on hookers, she's like, jimmy, you gotta take your addictions and channel it into something positive. Like, it was really funny. He'd talk about, like, how off the rails he was, but how his mom would help him, you know, like, with that piece of advice. But that is true. Like, so if you can all of a sudden become a marathon runner when before you were just looking to score meth every day. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You definitely. That's a better thing to be addicted to because it's not going to ruin your life. It might ruin your ankles and your knees and. Yeah, but. But it's not going to ruin your life where it, like, takes away all your money and you wind up sucking dick for rocks. You know, like, people do stuff.

[Brian Callum]

They do well. Do you remember I said to you, we were Talking. And I said, I think you had gotten some, you know, it was in the press, you made sign some deal or something. And I said, you know, I've known you 30 years and the one thing, the only thing that's changed about you is you've gotten more peace of mind. But you just haven't changed really. Like, you're just not. You haven't changed. And I said, what do you think it is? Which I'm always careful about talking about because I don't want anybody, any of my friends to get into their head about it, right?

[Jamie]

Just like, shut the fuck up.

[Brian Callum]

You know what I mean? Like, don't start asking too many questions. But I was like gently kind of going, I wonder. We were kind of exploring what it is that keeps you grounded. And I. You said to me, I like to do something really hard every day so it reminds me what a I am. That's the same thing I feel about. I wrestle almost four days a week now, which is ridiculous. It's actually embarrassing, right? But I do it because it's hard and I don't want to. And I have to warm my frame up and then I have to go wrestle around with these fucking monsters. But there's something about it, getting better at it kind of slowly, the incremental, getting better at something. And I do it because it's hard. That grounds me no matter what. I know I did that today. And that's a really good starting point.

[Jamie]

That's something to jump off of. There's something that you know, and if someone's listening and they're not into that, you don't definitely don't have to do that. Just try to do yoga every day. Try to go to one of Those beak room 90 minute hot yoga classes. Some of the hardest I've ever done physically in my life. So you don't have to like go wrestle. You can do something that more aligns with your political ideology.

[Brian Callum]

No, I always say that if you're especially. I can't speak to women. If you're a young man, you want to find yourself just get really good at something. Like just get good at fucking the piano. I don't care what it is. I always use jiu jitsu or something like that just because it's hard. But it's a placeholder for a lot of other things.

[Jamie]

Well, it also lets you know that there's a process in life that you can apply like universally. And that is like focus and attention and, you know, and this objective goal of getting better. And then you See progress. And then you realize like, oh, this is kind of applicable to just being a human being. Like, you can get better at being a human being by, by thinking about, okay, I fucked that up, I fucked this up, but I did that good. Oh, what did I do differently? Okay, let's do more of that.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

Over time you get better at being a human being.

[Brian Callum]

Yes.

[Jamie]

Right. But if you don't ever try to get good at anything, you're the same douchebag you were when you were in high school, but now you're 48 instead of 16. Yeah. And you're. You have the emotional maturity of a child.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

There's a lot of people out there running around like that that are just grown up babies.

[Brian Callum]

I know.

[Jamie]

And they mask it with, they'll mask it with a good vocabulary.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah. Or they'll mask it with like, you know, part of like, everybody wants to be an individual. Right. You want to be a little mysterious. You want to have a little like a skill set. And one of the great things about standup is, you know, no matter where I am, I know I got that. Like, I'll put me in front of a group, a crowd of 100, 200, 300 people. Doesn't matter. I don't care who they are. I'll make, I'm going to make them laugh. I know how to navigate that space for an hour. That's a nice thing to know. But if you don't have that, you don't have a skill set. If you don't have anything, what happens is you then negotiate individuality with accoutrement, as they say in France.

[Jamie]

Which means might dye your hair blue.

[Brian Callum]

Of course, and get all kinds of tattoos and then, and then do some crazy shit. Yeah, but you have no face tattoos.

[Jamie]

Fuck. Not yet. But you're going to, you're going to.

[Brian Callum]

Do a lot of shit.

[Jamie]

Get a heart. Tip of my nose.

[Brian Callum]

Yes, yes, yes. Get your nipples.

[Jamie]

Get two hearts on your nipples or get them pierced. That's the best.

[Brian Callum]

That's hot.

[Jamie]

You're definitely making good decisions. 58 years old, Rods through your nipples and you're a man.

[Brian Callum]

It's a new look. I'm trying something out.

[Jamie]

Lol.

[Brian Callum]

But you know what I mean. You'll do that and then you'll attach yourself to some political thing.

[Jamie]

Yeah. All those people that are protesting on the streets, 99 of them are losers. The other ones work for the Fed.

[Brian Callum]

I have a whole joke about that.

[Jamie]

It's like fucking, you know, it's FBI agents and losers. That's all it is. The whole fucking. Every protest, dude, is FBI agents and losers.

[Brian Callum]

I talk about this all the time. I'm like, for me, you want me to join a protest? You want me to get out on the street, first of all, to make a sign. The out of here. And then you don't have to make the sign.

[Jamie]

There's a guy with a van who's paid by George Soros, and he's got stacks signs that were made at Kinkos, okay? They're not homemade at all. And you just fucking. Just pass those bad boys out.

[Brian Callum]

I'm never leading your revolution. My problem is my sign would say, ugh. Or it's complicated.

[Jamie]

Yeah, well, if you're really trying to get your life together. But there's some things, you know, that people feel need to be protested. Like people in the uk like, they're a polite group. This is a polite society. England, for the most part, you know? And they've gotten to the point where they're like, okay, this is kind of nuts. Like, what are you guys doing? They've arrested 12,000 people this year for social media posts.

[Brian Callum]

Isn't that insane? Yes, and counting.

[Jamie]

Yeah. And they're arresting people for just saying things in public. Like, I like bacon around Muslims. Yeah.

[Brian Callum]

Is that true? Yes. Because you're in. You're. You're being annoying. I looked up that. That it's some kind of an information act. That. And if you. One of the things is if you're. If you post. Annoying. Annoying.

[Jamie]

That's everything I've ever.

[Brian Callum]

I'm annoying. The Brits are. The Brits are famously sarcastic.

[Jamie]

Right. And also, it depends entirely on who you are, because, like, what's annoying to me might not be remotely annoying to other people. So I get to decide whether or not you've committed a crime.

[Brian Callum]

They would have arrested Trump 50,000 times, you know, at least. But that's. That's. I always say that the Brits. The Brits, I. I don't wake them up.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Brian Callum]

Because they come alive. That small island of pale people conquered the world. Don't. Don't be like. Because I think that there's the Irish too. Like, you be careful now.

[Jamie]

Same thing.

[Brian Callum]

Be careful. Because they're very comfortable in a couple situations. They come alive. And when it comes to soccer, I. E. Football.

[Jamie]

And fist fights.

[Brian Callum]

And war.

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah. Fist fights.

[Brian Callum]

Correct, sir.

[Jamie]

Just a long history of warriors. Ireland and the U.K. yes. Yeah. And great. They make great mob movements. Movies. Boy. Guy Ritchie's show Mobland, dude, have you watched that show on Netflix?

[Brian Callum]

I love his movies.

[Jamie]

Oh, my God. It's good. It's. So is my land on Netflix? No, it's Paramount Plus. It's all the same. One of them streaming service. It's not all the same. I'm sorry. One of those streaming services has it. But it's great. Yeah, it's great.

[Brian Callum]

No, they don't.

[Jamie]

And it just shows you like, how crazy like the UK mob scene is. It's like. It's probably pretty accurate.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah, yeah, it's a. They always the SAS and stuff.

[Jamie]

Is it, Jamie? Paramount. Paramount.

[Brian Callum]

Paramount.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Brian Callum]

It's good though, huh?

[Jamie]

It's real good. One of the best shows ever. Yeah, like, as far as, like, you know, dramas where you follow them along, which really ruined movies. This episode is brought to you by Visible. You know that one friend who's always the first to know about everything? They've got a dozen tabs open constantly on their phone and in their head. To be that friend, you need wireless that can keep up. Visible is the ultimate wireless hack that lets you live in the the know. So you can follow a rabbit hole as long as you want. Get one line wireless with unlimited data, talk and text for $25 a month, taxes and fees included. Plus Visible runs on Verizon's 5G network, so you get great coverage and a reliable connection without the premium cost. Ready for wireless that lets you live in the knowledge. Make the [e-mail] terms apply. See visible.com for plan features and network management details.

[Brian Callum]

Dude, they're so sarcastic. I'm sitting there with my. My friend. We're in a shoot. We're doing a shoot. Which would mean you wear. You wear a collar and tie, sir, with. With those knickers. Those.

[Jamie]

Are you talking about like a shoot with a gun?

[Brian Callum]

I did a pheasant shoot.

[Jamie]

Oh, you went hunting, sir?

[Brian Callum]

Yes. And now at night, we shot deer. But in the morning time you have. They do drives and please follow along. We wake up, we have a wonderful breakfast at the estate, and I'm paying for none of this. And then we go out and we have a loader. I had a loader because I can't load my own shells. I had a loader who was a British guy. That's what they do. And then the villagers beat the bush to get the partridges that had been stocked.

[Jamie]

Partridges or.

[Brian Callum]

I'm sorry. Both.

[Jamie]

Oh, both.

[Brian Callum]

Now, it's a huge business. It supports an entire community. So these shoots are, you know, they're very expensive. So the person sponsoring it pays essentially all these. Everybody's making money.

[Jamie]

Rich people, recreation.

[Brian Callum]

Rich people, recreation. And. But there's something, there's something.

[Jamie]

I don't know.

[Brian Callum]

What were we talking about? I lost my train of thought.

[Jamie]

You're talking about English people.

[Brian Callum]

Oh, yeah, yeah. They're so sarcastic. So I've got this loader who's next to me, and I'm missing the birds. I'm not good with a shotgun. And I just. They're coming right at us and I'm fucking, literally just missing all of them. And at one point, he looks at me and goes, are you a vegan? I was like, you, dude. He just quietly said that to me.

[Jamie]

That's hilarious.

[Brian Callum]

He goes, swing your barrels.

[Jamie]

Well, you have to learn how to do that. I actually, in the uk learned how to do it. I learned how to do it in Scotland.

[Brian Callum]

Oh, you did that?

[Jamie]

Yeah, no, I did clay pigeons. You know, those are really fun.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah, those are.

[Jamie]

And you learn how you have to lead them and you learn like how to shoot with a, A, A shotgun where you're, you're kind of like, you kind of. It's almost like feel like you feel where the pellets are going to go. And you want the disc, you got.

[Brian Callum]

To swing your barrel, right? So. So when the bird is coming, you, you, you go belly, you go tail, belly, beak, and you keep. You pull the trigger as you leave the bird. So it's like throwing a football, right? And then they run into the pellets and they perish.

[Jamie]

So different than any other shooting that I've ever done, because all the shooting that I've ever done, you have to be dead still. Like everything I've shot with a rifle, rather so rifle shooting, you. You don't move at all. And it's just about control and controlling yourself and staying calm and not flinching when you pull the trigger. But this is so different. It's like, you know, they used to say that like the Comanche, one of the things that was crazy was the. Some of them weren't even really accurate with a bow. If you just gave him a bow and told them to shoot at it like a target, right? They weren't accurate really, but on a horse, so on the horse, the gallop, and they had this zap. They knew where that arrow was going, so they're using the chaos. So what, the movement and all the, like the darting around, like they just guide the arrow like in the middle of chaos and war.

[Brian Callum]

So you love archery. Do you know what, what was a game changer with art, with, with shooting, shooting A bow from a horse, you know? You know what invention changed everything?

[Jamie]

Probably stirrups.

[Brian Callum]

Thank you.

[Jamie]

Yeah. Because they can hang over the side.

[Brian Callum]

That's right. Well, you can also stand up and break, you know, so it's like you can stay steady and then shoot.

[Jamie]

The Comanche used to run, like, very similarly. Like, that guy is a bad.

[Brian Callum]

That's a. That's a Mongol, bro.

[Jamie]

That guy is so badass.

[Brian Callum]

That's where that guy Shavkat comes from, I think.

[Jamie]

Yeah, but the kind of core strength you have to. Have to do what that guy was just doing. Go back to that first one, Jimmy, on horses. Oh, is it a YouTube or something?

[Brian Callum]

You know, who can ride horses like that? Who's that? Who's that good at horses? Sylvester Stallone.

[Jamie]

Look at this. Look at this.

[Brian Callum]

Oh, my God, bro.

[Jamie]

That kind of strength, to be able to hang completely sideways, like, when it starts in the beginning, that's not as impressive as the very first frame. Go to the very first frame. Look, look. Look at.

[Brian Callum]

He's.

[Jamie]

Look at his positioning.

[Brian Callum]

That.

[Jamie]

That is bananas. That's bananas. Like, his spine and his core are so. It must be so fucking strong.

[Brian Callum]

Think about fighting him if you've got a sword and you have to deal with a group of those dudes.

[Jamie]

There's a lot of bad motherfuckers from that part of the world, though, a lot of bad.

[Brian Callum]

Where they hunt with each other is.

[Jamie]

Actually from the place that Borat used to always make fun of.

[Brian Callum]

Kazakhstan. Kazakhstan.

[Jamie]

Kazakhstan. Like. And they hate him. They're like, if he comes there, they're gonna kill him.

[Brian Callum]

My bad.

[Jamie]

Yeah. Like, they. Because they made everybody look like a goat. And a. Meanwhile, they're like some of the fiercest human beings on earth.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

You know, like, Shavkat, unfortunately, just injured his knee again.

[Brian Callum]

He did?

[Jamie]

Yeah, man. He had surgery in his knee, was rehabbing his knee and blew it out again. And now he has to have another surgery, and now it's 10 months. There's a few guys that I've known who have done that where they got ACL reconstruction. I don't know if Shavkat had acl, but any kind of reconstruction of the ligaments, you. You feel better before you're better. Real careful. Because what happens is when you get a reconstruction of your knee, it's like, say if they use a cadaver, that does not become your new tendon. What that does is. Becomes a scaffolding for your new tendon. And so your body has to proliferate that scaffolding of the dead. Guy's tendon with fresh tendon meat, really? And eventually it becomes your tendon.

[Brian Callum]

You have to wait for it.

[Jamie]

You have to do that. You have to wait. But it feels good right away. But you've got a rotten old piece of meat in there that your body is taking over with its own tissue.

[Brian Callum]

Wow.

[Jamie]

That done? I had that done, yeah.

[Brian Callum]

And. And how long did it take you?

[Jamie]

Six months.

[Brian Callum]

Really?

[Jamie]

Yeah, Six months. I was doing Jiu Jitsu again.

[Brian Callum]

But you couldn't do anything until then?

[Jamie]

No, I was being really smart. I. I was really smart about it because I. That was my second knee reconstruction. I had my left knee reconstructed, too. That was a patella tendon graft. And that one took a lot longer to heal because you're taking a chip out of your bone, a chip out of your shin, and a slice of your patella tendon, which is a very thick, large tendon, and then they open you up like a fish and screw both of them. It's very invasive. Whereas the one on the right knee, the ACL reconstruction with the cadaver was a really easy recovery. Like, I was. I went to a party, like, six days later with just a brace on, just walking around.

[Brian Callum]

Damn.

[Jamie]

Yeah, it was not bad at all. I mean, I was careful with it, you know, I was very diligent with the rehab. Like, every day. I was doing rehab every day. And, like, really doing it. Like, not bullshitting around. I was doing, like, I would go in the steam shower and do deep squats. And wow, I was really making. Re. Rebuilt all the tissue before I ever even thought about doing Jiu Jitsu again. But Jiu Jitsu, six months later, no problem at all. Wow.

[Brian Callum]

What protects me is my moderate temperament. I'm. I'm good at, like, you being like, I can feel a little something. I'll be stopping now. You know, you probably don't have that gene. You just keep.

[Jamie]

I'm terrible at that. That's why I get hurt sometimes because I meathead my way through things. I just decide to push through the pain, and next thing you know, you get something legitimately wrong.

[Brian Callum]

Well, that's it. Like, I was doing toes to bar, where you. And hanging, and I. My wrist has never been the same.

[Jamie]

Like, you hurt your wrist?

[Brian Callum]

Yeah, I pulled. I broke something or did something where I. It's always, you know, angles. I know. But the problem is you're way more fragile than you realize you are for. Yeah, well, I. Unfortunately. Unfortunately.

[Jamie]

You know what I've been doing every day? I hang for two minutes every day. Every day. And it's new. It's. I've only been doing it, like, the last.

[Brian Callum]

What do you get out of it?

[Jamie]

I think I feel better. Like, my spine feels better. I've been doing a bunch of things at the same time, so it's hard to tell what has the most impact. I think they all have a lot of impact. But one of the things I've been doing is, like, I go to this guy and get trigger points. Point work.

[Brian Callum]

Right.

[Jamie]

Trigger point massage. It's. It's so painful. It's some of the most. It's not massage. You can call it massage. It's. This guy's digging elbows and knuckles into, like, your I. T. Band and. Yeah. Like, different parts.

[Brian Callum]

That's my calves. I'll cry.

[Jamie]

Different parts of your spine, different parts of your calves, your. Your legs, your. Your lower back, all that stuff. But also hanging every day. And the more I hang, in the beginning, I was like, I wonder if this is going to, like, really help anything or if it's just me trying to see how long I can hang.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

And so now I do two minutes. I just hang there, by the way. Yeah. I can go to 237. That's the longest I've gone at. Right now, I'm like 202.

[Brian Callum]

But I wonder. It probably first of all makes your hands really strong.

[Jamie]

It makes my hands real strong.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

They're very callous now. Like, maybe more callous than they've ever been. They've always been kind of cows from kettlebells, but now I'm getting different ones. Like on the front.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

Fingers. The pointer fingers. I always get my calluses on the right where the ring finger is. For some reason, on both hands is the biggest calluses. I guess that's where I grip the hardest or where it grinds around the most. But my back feels better. Feels, like looser. Like it's got. It's like it's. And I'm like, okay, well, I've only done this for a few weeks every day. Like, what if I do this every day for a year? Like, what happens? Does it. Can you actually decompress your spine? Well, it turns out you can. So I started going on YouTube and following people's hanging journeys.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

This is one lady, she. I guess she broke the world record. She hung for 23 minutes.

[Brian Callum]

What?

[Jamie]

What?

[Brian Callum]

Isn't it funny? The human body, if you can. You can train yourself to do almost how you can adapt, but that's nuts.

[Jamie]

There's people out there that are just different Than you. There are people I know that they have, not just you, like, everybody listening. They have a different will. Their will is different. The. The kind of will that you have to. Have to hang from a bar for 23 minutes is so crazy. This guy does it for 2 hours and 22 minutes.

[Brian Callum]

What? Why?

[Jamie]

Switching arms, obviously.

[Brian Callum]

But yeah, you know what? Life is too.

[Jamie]

I think that lady has the lady's record.

[Brian Callum]

Life is too short to hang from a bar that long.

[Jamie]

2 hours and 22 minutes. That's pretty crazy.

[Brian Callum]

It's crazy.

[Jamie]

That guy must be a. Some kind of crazy rock climber, right? His body.

[Brian Callum]

And his body looks pretty. Pretty normal.

[Jamie]

Well, it's all really about your hands and your grip if you are a rock climber. I mean, you have to have leg strength and flexibility and a bunch of other things as well. For sure, yeah. But, God, your grip is what keeps you alive. Without your grip, you don't have jack.

[Brian Callum]

Right.

[Jamie]

But this lady that was doing it, I was just watching her doing. She was doing the same thing. She was like switching hands. And so you give your left hand a break and then you hold on with your right hand, your right hand up and follow me.

[Brian Callum]

Like, I think your body. I do it. I. I find that the game changer for me was when I stopped stretching and started strengthening. Right. So you can stretch. You should do some stretching. But my routine before I wrestle or something is to strengthen, so I'll warm it up. So I do. I do strengthening exercises for my lower back.

[Jamie]

Okay.

[Brian Callum]

All that stuff, right?

[Jamie]

Like planks.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah. Or just. No, just like bird dogs and fire hydrants and. Yeah, you know, all that. And that stuff is that. That's been the game changer. Like with my shoulders, I was getting tendinitis, Right. And then I just started doing all these different shoulder things with bands right before I do it. And sure enough, you get stronger. My neck, same thing. My net. People don't work their neck, like, as they get older at all. I think your neck is really important.

[Jamie]

Oh, for sure. What do you do?

[Brian Callum]

I do that iron. You know that. And then I get banned sometimes and I'll just turn like that. Like I'll be on my.

[Jamie]

The best thing about the iron neck, in my opinion, is there's other stuff that you could do, like harnesses where you do, like, chin ups with your. Or like, not chin ups, like. Like you think of, but you have this harness around your head and then there's a chain. At the end of the chain is a dumbbell. And then what you're Doing is just using your neck to lift the weights. The guy from Iron Neck had a real good point. He's like that. That puts like weird stress on your. All those different discs.

[Brian Callum]

It does, yeah.

[Jamie]

So when you're doing this, when you're. Yeah. Huh? And he's like, you can really get hurt. Whereas what you want to do is strengthen your neck so that it doesn't do that. Right. In all sports. In sports, it's very rare that you use your neck like that. I used to use my neck in jiu jitsu and I actually started developing a problem. I had a bulging disc for a while and that. It was one, it was also definitely getting caught and not tapping like a dumb ass. But two, it was arm triangles. I was. I had a really good arm triangle head and arm choke. So if I got mount on someone and I was able to isolate that arm that I am, I have a really good head and arm choke. But in that head and arm choke, I'm using my neck. It's part of the reason why it's good because I have a thick neck. So. Because if I can get your arm right here, I got another weapon.

[Brian Callum]

Yes.

[Jamie]

Like you thinking about my arms holding on to you, but I'm holding on to you with this. And this is strong. As if I get you in this position and I'm holding that arm there. But the problem was I was developing like a real pinch nerve. And then it wound up making my fingertips numb. And then that's when I found out the chiropractors are quacks. I went to a chiropractor for like a year and just gave this guy money to me. It was like, God damn it made me feel your foot press on the top of my head to see if I had a bulging disc.

[Brian Callum]

I'm not kidding.

[Jamie]

I go do. Maybe I have a bulging disc. And like, I just thought this guy was cool. I thought he was a doctor as well. I did know that chiropractors go to zero days of medical school and they get to call themselves a doctor. I also didn't know that chiropractic, the whole idea of it, was founded by a magnetic healer who, like, it came to him like a seance or some. He was a complete fraud. And his son, who was a con artist, took over the business. Son ran over him with a car, by the way, killed that guy.

[Brian Callum]

Really?

[Jamie]

Yeah. Son killed the dad, ran over him with a car and then took over his business and then started saying that, you know, the cracking people's backs can fix Leukemia and all kinds of.

[Brian Callum]

Sure. You have to, you have to align your meridian points.

[Jamie]

Oh yeah, horseshit. It's all made up stuff. But there is something beneficial about manipulating your spine though. This is what's interesting, right? There's something beneficial about massage. And a lot of the other things that are doing, they're essentially loosening up. Like this trigger point that I told you I've been doing. That's the extreme version of it, which I think is way more effective. But there's something to the manipulation. Well, it releases, but there's also a lot of people that have had serious consequences of getting their neck cracked where they have strokes. Correct. And like things like this. There's a guy I just saw on the news the other day that had compartment syndrome where he's like, you can't move his body anymore because he went to a chiropractor. And before he's like this like little smiley happy guy, like nightmare. And again, this is not all chiropractors. A lot of chiropractors I'm sure, give you benefit because I think there's something to like loosening you up. Well, no, it's pushing on you. And there's a physical therapy aspect. This episode is brought to you by Simply safe. The world can be scary sometimes. I mean, take the news for example. It feels like we hear about something outrageous happening every week. Now more than ever, it's more important to have a security system for your safety and peace of mind. And Simplisafe is one of the best options out there, partly because of how proactive it is. It can help stop and prevent crime in real time. AI powered cameras can detect suspicious activity and alert security agents who can immediately take action. They can speak to intruders, warn them away flashlights and sirens and dispatch police. With how great a job it does, no long term contracts and no hidden fees, it's easy to see why Simplisafe continues to be named best home security systems by U. S News & World report. Try it out right now. My listeners can get 50 off a SimpliSafe home security system at SimpliSafe.com rogan that's 50 off at SimpliSafe.com roGAN There's no safe like simply safe.

[Brian Callum]

Some chiropractors know what you're talking about. So when they go into it, they study physical therapy. So yeah, I had a chiropractor say to me, your hips are, you're, you're atrophing, your ass is atrophying on the bottom. So you have to strengthen that part, because it'll bring your hips into alignment. He was dead. He was right on. Yeah. So this guy.

[Jamie]

Yeah, but that's what he really is. He shouldn't be saying he's a doctor. Correct. That's what's crazy. It's not that there's no benefit to it. It's like they all want to call themselves doctor, too, you know, I'm Dr. Rogan. Like, come on.

[Brian Callum]

You know, who the. You know, Squat University. You ever follow that. That account? Oh, dude, that guy, everybody I know, he trains Olympic weightlifters and real Olympians. And he'll show you what. What he's. He knows the body so well, and this is the greatest. I. I DM him because people I respect were talking about how they. They follow him, like, a lot. I know a lot of trainers who follow him and stuff. And if you. If you go to his thing, you'll see he demonstrates how somebody will have an impingement. This is an Olympic weightlifter or something. Pain for two years. And then he'll give them an exercise. Literally an exercise. And it will actually change them almost instantaneously or within a couple of days. Right. And because he really understands the body. So I had heel pain. Really bad heel pain. I would wake up and I couldn't walk. So it's like. Was it plantar fasciitis? What's going on?

[Jamie]

You had gout, son.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah, Right. And so I go to a couple of podiatrists, and they make me the implants. It's like, you just need arch support and all that. I DM him. I can't remember his name. And he. He said, you know, I'm gonna send you a video on a guy. Your shoes may be too narrow, and what's going on?

[Jamie]

I do wear those. Goose.

[Brian Callum]

Not anymore, bro.

[Jamie]

Dress shoes. What are you going to say?

[Brian Callum]

I got my. But I did. I would wear those kind of. You know, you want to be cool? And what was happening was my big toes being. Every time. I would wear a blazer, every time I would blazer, I would. Sometimes I'd be like, I'm wearing a blazer and a collared shirt. And I'd walk in, and you'd go, hey, you teaching substitute school? You a substitute teacher again? I'd be like, fuck this, man. Take it off. So much for that. Anytime I wear a college shirt.

[Jamie]

You were wearing slippery shoes.

[Brian Callum]

Oh, yeah.

[Jamie]

You were wearing those weird dress shoes that are slippery.

[Brian Callum]

I try to. I try to change it up. I'm like, I'm going to dress like an adult. I want to be like Jordan Peterson, but it never lasts.

[Jamie]

Adult. Do it. Yeah. You got to give up on that.

[Brian Callum]

But he told me. He goes. He said, I think what's happening is your. Your big toes being pushed in. And sometimes that cuts blood off to your heel. So your heel is actually at. Is actually getting necrosis, actually dying. You're not getting blood.

[Jamie]

Wait a minute. The blood has to go through. So the heel to get to the big. It's not like. Does it go that way?

[Brian Callum]

Yep.

[Jamie]

There's an artery goes all the way to the end when you push here, which is the end of the line, which is your toes.

[Brian Callum]

As a doctor, I can tell you as you push here, and it turns.

[Jamie]

Around and goes through the heel.

[Brian Callum]

Whatever this. When this happens, it blocks blood flow. The. It blocks the. The artery that's taken. I wore wide toe shoes like that. Within five days, all my. My pain was gone.

[Jamie]

That's crazy. Yeah, that makes sense, though.

[Brian Callum]

And no podiatrist knew that he did because he studies the body, because he works with.

[Jamie]

Right.

[Brian Callum]

The top athletes. And if he doesn't get results, he doesn't get paid. That's. That's. That's.

[Jamie]

Do podiatrists ever tell you you should do foot exercises? Well, do you go to a podiatrist and they say what you really need to do is wear barefoot shoes and pull a sled. You know, like, you want to do foot exercises. You use some of those, like, bare, like, vivo barefoot shoes and pull a sled. Yeah, yeah.

[Brian Callum]

You'll get stronger.

[Jamie]

You'll feel every little part of your foot, like, pushing, and that's how they're supposed to engage. You know, traditional shoes are essentially like a cast. There's this hard thing that. That separates you from the ground so your toes don't articulate and push. And everything is just, like, from the leg into this cast and that pushes down because it's like this big, spongy, hard surface that you put your foot into.

[Brian Callum]

How much do you. How often, like, how many you work out? Like, how long a day?

[Jamie]

Every day? At least an hour.

[Brian Callum]

That's a lot.

[Jamie]

I like to do a couple hours, though, because I like to have, like, especially strength training. I like to have long weights in between exercises. It allows you to fully recover before you do it again.

[Brian Callum]

How heavy do you go?

[Jamie]

That's. It's all based on Pavel Tatsulin. His. It's all from the Russians, like, how they would train kettlebells. And his philosophy is that strength Is a skill. And you should never do a skill when you're tired. So if you're. If you're doing, like, power cleans. Like, if I'm doing cleans and presses, I'm waiting five minutes in between each set. I'm waiting a long time, really. At least sometimes 10. So you're doing Olympic, and I don't care.

[Brian Callum]

Olympic weightlifting.

[Jamie]

No, no. Kettlebell stuff. So I'm cleaning and pressing. Like, the heaviest I usually use is like £70. Every now and then I'll around. I have, like, I have a Bigfoot one that's like 92. I'll bust out some reps with the Bigfoot, but most of the time I'm doing £70. That's my heavy. My heavy.

[Brian Callum]

What is that for you? Like, Like.

[Jamie]

So I do sets, three sets of 10, cleans and presses, and by the.

[Brian Callum]

10Th, how tired are you?

[Jamie]

Not tired at all. That's the whole thing. The whole thing is you get all the reps that you would get if you smashed them all together, if you only took a minute off in between each set and went through it. So you get all the strength. But what you're not doing is you're not operating under fatigue. So it's not.

[Brian Callum]

So you're not pushing failure.

[Jamie]

No. And it's not a muscular endurance. No, you're not pushing failure at all. Which is also I thought was crazy. The philosophy is it's not the failure that gets you strong, it's the amount of repetitions. The whole thing is the amount of repetitions. Now, if you do three sets of 10 and you do them back to back, boy, you get to that third set, you might barely be able to get up that 10th rep, right. Because you're exhausted, because you've done cleans and presses. You gave yourself like a minute rest in between sets, and then you went and did it again. And a minute rest in between the third set, and then you're fucking tired as shit.

[Brian Callum]

Right?

[Jamie]

But if you're waiting 10 minutes in between each. Each set, you're doing the same amount of work, but easily. So you. You have a less of a chance of getting hurt. And your goal is not muscular endurance. Your goal when you're doing strength training is just strength. That's what you're trying to do. So the whole way to get strong is not going to failure. This is their philosophy. You can argue it if you want. And especially bodybuilders, I'm sure, would argue with it because it's a different thing. We're just trying to get massive. But his thought is if you can do say 20 reps to failure, don't do that, do 10 and then wait a long time and then do another 10. And it's just as good really as doing 20 sets to failure. Yeah, the whole thing that gets you strong is just work. It's just the numbers and it allows your body to fully recover so that you can you. When you lift it up, like if you go to clean the second set, you're. You're fully engaged, you feel good, you feel rested, you feel strong and then you bust out those sets and then you wait again. I wait maybe 10 minutes. I'm just sitting around.

[Brian Callum]

10 minutes.

[Jamie]

Yeah. I watch a YouTube video, maybe I stretch and then I get out and I do it again. So that's. Those are the long days. So when I have a lot of time, that's how I like to work out. I like to work on these long two hour chunks.

[Brian Callum]

I got small kids, bro. It's never happening.

[Jamie]

Yeah, but if you get up in the morning, you can do it. If you get up before everybody else or if you do it when everybody's asleep, you could do it. But the point is, if you want to like that, that's a way to get strong that I think you lessen your chances of injury. You've always got a chance of injury. You're lifting heavy things. But I don't lift things that are that heavy. And the heaviest thing I lift really is my body. I do a lot of body weight. Squats, a lot of body weight stuff. Pull ups, dips, chin ups. Yeah, I do a lot of stuff. Ls l chin ups, you know, where your feet are extended and you're doing chin ups like this. I do a lot of those and I do those toe to bars. I do those like you were talking about. Those suck. But they're really good for your abs. Yeah, I do a lot of ab stuff. I have like a heavy core ab routine, but I've always kind of done that. So like really important for kicking. Like kicking. You know, people think it's in the legs and certainly is, but a lot of it is in the torque that you generate with your core. That's really where the power comes from. It comes from here. A real powerful kick is all for. It's all. And the leg kind of follows through with it. But when you dig into it, if you have a weak core, there's no way you're going to generate enough forced even get that leg moving correctly.

[Brian Callum]

I love that we're 58. And talking about the importance of kicking and torque.

[Jamie]

I could think that way. I could think, oh, 58. Why do I think? I just think what I like.

[Brian Callum]

I was just working on my double leg. What are you talking about? Who are you talking to?

[Jamie]

But also, more importantly, I do the work to make sure that my body can still do this at 58. If you're like 58 and you're a mailman and you've been drinking every night and you haven't gone to the gym in six months, you're like, I'm gonna go kick the bag. Like, slow down, slow down, slow down. You gotta get hurt. Started.

[Brian Callum]

Five minutes.

[Jamie]

Yeah, you got to build. Like you say, oh, Rogan hangs for two minutes. I'm gonna go hang for two minutes. First of all, you're not.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

And you're gonna hurt yourself. Like, don't. If you want to start hanging, hang for 15 seconds. Just do that every day for 15 seconds. And then one day you'll be able to do 30, pretty easy. And then next thing you know, you'd be doing a minute.

[Brian Callum]

I always say that to people. I say, don't worry, hey, you're gonna get back to working out. You don't have to do an hour. Actually start with 10 minutes working out. Start with 10 minutes.

[Jamie]

Super light.

[Brian Callum]

Literally 10 minutes.

[Jamie]

You don't want to do much push ups.

[Brian Callum]

Keep it fun.

[Jamie]

Sit ups, body weight, squats, that's it.

[Brian Callum]

Feel the difference. So you feel like stimulated. You have energy.

[Jamie]

Right.

[Brian Callum]

Instead of like my, my old trainer, I love him, Lou Parada. He would say stimulate, don't annihilate. He was the Same way. He's 60, 70 now. Same thing.

[Jamie]

Yeah, because that's the thing about being a meathead. It's like your meatheadedness can actually get in the way of progress.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

Like, you can actually learn better if you're not exhausted. Right. But there's like a lot of jiu Jitsu schools that have you do like. Like when I used to train at Carlson Gracie's, the warm up was so brutal. By the time you got to actually training, that was like a break. It was a break is leak. I can hold on to this guy, you know, I don't have to do somersaults over and over again. You would do all these different body weight things. They would do like duck walks and bear claw crawls. But the, their idea was, hey, you should be fit enough that you could do all this and it's easy. And then you start training and then you're fit to train and it'll help your training. And there's. They're right, they're right. However, if you're trying to teach people something, the worst way to teach them is when they're exhausted. So if you can say like Carl Gotch, famously, the. He's a famous catch wrestling guru who was a great wrestler back in God, I think it was like the 50s and 60s back when catch wrestling was legit. Like, they would, they would catch wrestling. It's an American style submission wrestling that a lot of these submissions actually, you know, when you think about Ken Shamrock and stuff. No, Ken Shamrock. Ken Shamrock had a little bit of that for sure. You know, Ken Shamrock was, he was a hybrid. You know, he did a lot of training in Japan and he did. He was a leg lock guy before anybody was. Like, Ken Shamrock won some of the early UFC's with heel hooks. Nobody even knew what the was going on. And it was. He was also a massive human being too. That was part of it. Like, Ken Shamrock was Jack, he was so strong. But their whole thing was all about conditioning. Like the lion's den, they had this famous crucible they would put recruits through. Like, if you wanted to train with the lion's den, you had to go. You had to go through hell. They had this crazy like, bud style strength and conditioning routine. Then you had a spar. Everybody get a spar. The whole team, they beat the out of each other. Because back in those days, nobody knew what sparring light was all about.

[Brian Callum]

No, like, everybody, like knock each other out.

[Jamie]

Everybody beat the out of each other. So it's like. But that's not. You produce animals when you do that, but you're not going to produce the most technical guys. For most of the people, most of the most technical guys, what they, they think of, there's two. You have to compartmentalize two different things. Like toughness. Like in training, if you're doing cardio, if you're doing hill sprints, if you're doing, you know, live drills, there's toughness, but then there's also you. You got to really know technique. And technique is the king of all. And when it comes to mma, sure, but in jiu jitsu is even more important. Yeah, in mma, it's even more important because there's more aspects to the game. And if you like. Did you see the UFC this weekend? Did you see Oliveira versus Gamrot? No, bro. It was a tour de force of jiu jitsu, really the moment Gamrot, because Gamrot is A sick wrestler. Mataus Gamrot, he's a nasty wrestler.

[Brian Callum]

Where's he from?

[Jamie]

Like that part of the world that you're terrified of. Yeah, I don't want to miss the.

[Brian Callum]

Old country, the hills, Poland.

[Jamie]

Poland. There you go. Hard ass beast. Beast of a wrestler. I mean, just a animal.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

He took Charles Oliveira down right away and was immediately in terrible trouble. Like, every step of the way, he's getting almost plotted and triangled and this and that and. And Oliveira just dominated him on the ground. And then when it comes to stand up, Olivera is better at stand up than him. So they go on the feet and Gamrot's. He's getting lit up on the feet by Oliveira. And then Oliveira takes him down and strangles him. Takes his back and chokes him out. The first guy to ever finish Gamrot. But it just showed the importance of technique, technique, finishing technique. Not just holding technique and taking a down technique, which Gammart has a fuckload of. But he doesn't have the Jiu Jitsu technique that Oliveira has. But he could have.

[Brian Callum]

He could have had that, right?

[Jamie]

As good a wrestler as he is.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

If that guy just. And Eddie Bravo used to say this years and years and years ago. He was like, if these wrestlers, they all want to study, like, anti Jiu Jitsu, they all want to take everybody down and have, you know, avoid the Jiu jitsu, avoid the submissions. That's what they concentrate on the most. He's like, instead of just learning all those submissions and just annihilating people, but they. In their mind, they were competing against Jiu Jitsu. So it was like the wrestlers had a show. We're the toughest.

[Brian Callum]

Yes.

[Jamie]

We're gonna get on top and bottom.

[Brian Callum]

My tribe is better than your tribe 100%.

[Jamie]

And Eddie was like, if they could just abandon that and fall in love with Jiu Jitsu. This episode is brought to you by Caldera Lab. You've probably seen this brand all over Instagram, and I am here to tell you, I try it and it lives up to the hype. Listen, you train your body, you eat clean, you take supplements, you put in work everywhere else. But most guys ignore the biggest organ that they've got, their skin. And here's the thing, your skin's just like any other part of the body. If you don't take care of it, it wears down faster. It shows the damage, and it makes you look older than you are. Caldera Lab simple regime is designed for guys, and it actually works. I know it's a big difference. And you will too. Look better, feel better. Simple as that. Go to caldera lab.com jre and use the code jre for 20 off your first order. That's caldera lab.com jRE this episode is brought to you by Traeger. It's time to get fired up for daytime grilling. Whether you're at the parking lot or tailgating from home, Traeger grills are your MVP for every matchup. The all new Woodridge elite is packed with innovative features like WI fi control, so you can monitor your cooks from the couch and get back to cheering on your team. And if breakfast is part of your pregame ritual, the flat rock two zone griddle comes in clutch for epic pancakes, crispy bacon and more make Traeger your go to for game day greatness. Head over to traeger.com and use the code Rogan at checkout for free shipping. Be the most dangerous people alive. Wow. Because they're already the best.

[Brian Callum]

That's so interesting. And that makes total sense.

[Jamie]

Total sense.

[Brian Callum]

Learn, learning. Learning your enemy. Like, really learning.

[Jamie]

Stop being on a team.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

You're trying to be a fighter. If you're an MMA fighter, Stop this I represent taekwondo shit. Like, no, you don't. You're just, you know, you have.

[Brian Callum]

Well, you and I talk about that. Don't. Don't let the fact that you have an idea in your head. See, we all have the. We form these ideas. A lot of those ideas are informed by where I am emotionally. To begin with, I'm defending something. Typically, I'm going to be defending how I grew up, my parents, what's worked for me, my city, all that shit, you know? Yeah. My culture. And what happens is, you get it. You. You start identifying with your ideas and it's just an idea. So be open to having your mind changed based on evidence.

[Jamie]

Well, just don't be married to your ideas. That's for sure. But the most important thing is, like, think about Bruce Lee. Right? What did he figure out? He figured out before anybody. Absorb what is useful Take from all martial arts. You know, you don't have to call it a new thing anymore because Jeet kune do is what we're all doing. Really. Well, if you're doing mma, you're doing Jeet kune do. You're doing what he. He just said, take a little bit of everything that works.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

No matter what it is.

[Brian Callum]

But also like technique. Like when you watch how they bring boxers up, like Virgil Hunter, you know, in his camp Andre Berto and Andre Ward, man, to watch how they like the old school boxers. I love watching them. I love watching how they train. Like they will. They do stuff like, like everything you do. Like this guy, Coach Anthony, people like that. If you watch them, everything is considered. And you work on your jab. You work on how to set that jab up. Gordon Ryan talks about that too. Like with jiu jitsu, start on the bottom, start on the bottom. How's your half guard? What's it like? How do you get out of amount? Start your. Your. Your entire repertoire, your technique at the worst part, and understand that. But with, with boxing, when you watch like footwork, it's all footwork, man. It's such a different thing. It's like how you step where you punch from.

[Jamie]

Canelo Alvarez vs. Terence Crawford. Crawford always had his foot on the outside. He was in perfect position. Defense was flawless.

[Brian Callum]

I love watching that.

[Jamie]

That is a master class. It was a master class because there was one point in the fight where Terrence was pity patting them. So what he'll do is he'll pity pat you and then load up with big shots. But he was so dominant that he could stand in front of Canelo Alvarez, who's one of the most feared boxers.

[Brian Callum]

In the history of all time of.

[Jamie]

The sport, no doubt. And Terence Crawford is sitting in front of him going, pat, pat, pat, pat.

[Brian Callum]

Rip, pat, pat, pat, pat.

[Jamie]

Just. It was crazy. I was like, look at. He's pity patting them. Which is almost disrespectful.

[Brian Callum]

Well, you know what Alvarez. Alvarez said, he goes, I couldn't figure him out. How about that? I couldn't figure out. That's what I think. Fighting, it's at the highest level. It's. It's two people trying to solve, like, what are these patterns you're doing? How can I cut you off at that before you finish that pattern? Duran used to. People would say when they fought Duran, they would say, he's reading my mind. And they would say, he's reading my mind. Because he knew he could see what you were doing. He'd been there. He's like, I know where you're going with this.

[Jamie]

He was also so raw, he might have been reading your mind. He was such a savage in his early days. Like people see Duran, you see Duran, like when he fought Davey Moore and Iran Barkley and those guys. That's a Duran, that's 30 plus pounds over his best fighting weight. His best fighting weight was 135.

[Brian Callum]

Dude, he fought and Barkley was a Iran Barkley was, I think fought at 67, maybe even bigger. And he fought him at that weight.

[Jamie]

Yeah. And he knocked him out.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

Go see if you can find Roberto Duran versus Ken Buchanan. This is when he won the lightweight title when he was young and like super skinny. Way before he fought Leonard.

[Brian Callum]

It's crazy.

[Jamie]

It's probably a black site close to.

[Brian Callum]

A human pit bull as possible.

[Jamie]

He was a badger dude. Just a ferocious man with excellent technique. That's what poverty tearing people apart.

[Brian Callum]

That's what not having enough food, literally, in Panama does to you.

[Jamie]

Yeah. And also a long history of combat sports in Panama as well. This is like, it's not like a unique thing to be a boxer in Panama. So you're dealing with iron. Sharp. It's iron. Excellent technique. Oh, it is in color.

[Brian Callum]

He was so beautiful.

[Jamie]

Boy, look how shitty it looks. What year is this? 72. It's upscaled, so it's.

[Brian Callum]

This is.

[Jamie]

Oh, it's upscale.

[Brian Callum]

This is what every UFO video is, bro.

[Jamie]

He was so good.

[Brian Callum]

They use this.

[Jamie]

Look how skinny he is. Wow. It's crazy.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah, bro, when you. When you. When you are a real boxer like that, that's what you do. You just. You don't look muscle bound.

[Jamie]

Well, in his defense, I mean, he was a young man and he was. But he was a lot thicker when he fought Leonard at 47, and he looked a lot better.

[Brian Callum]

He's got a Brian Callum body. That's why I like about it.

[Jamie]

But he hit him low a lot as well. He was very rough. Like in the infighting. Occasionally he would.

[Brian Callum]

Great. Great infighter.

[Jamie]

Probably knew where the referee was too. You know, back then there was no instant replay. Ken McKenna was very good too.

[Brian Callum]

You ever see me getting a boxing lesson from Sugar Ray Leonard in. In Sylvester Stallone's house or see that? I have put it on Instagram.

[Jamie]

No, we're watching really good boxing. I don't know why you even brought it up.

[Brian Callum]

Sorry. Oh, he got caught there.

[Jamie]

Yeah. Oh, Ken Buchanan was legit.

[Brian Callum]

Damn. Wow.

[Jamie]

I mean, it was a crazy fight, but these at 35, and this was for the lightweight title. It was a crazy scrap of a fight, man. Scoot ahead so you could watch someone like the later action.

[Brian Callum]

Buchanan was something else, huh?

[Jamie]

Oh, yeah. He was world champion.

[Brian Callum]

You know, I never heard of him until just now.

[Jamie]

He was a tough guy.

[Brian Callum]

Wow. Is he wearing a. I'm pretty sure.

[Jamie]

That'S how Duran won the title. I don't think Duran was defending the title. I think Duran.

[Brian Callum]

Look at that shot, dude.

[Jamie]

Bro, when you watch these guys and you think about, like, how long it takes to get this good at boxing.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah, 30 years.

[Jamie]

Time had. No, he wasn't that old.

[Brian Callum]

I'm saying, I'm saying.

[Jamie]

But how much time spent, like trying to, under fire, figure out when to connect to someone's face?

[Brian Callum]

No, I was saying rip to the body. What's his name? Crawford said this, this has been a 30 year career. He's been fighting for 30 years.

[Jamie]

Oh, yeah. If you think about it. Well, and also, Terence Crawford's been fighting smart for 30 years. He doesn't get hit a lot.

[Brian Callum]

That's like.

[Jamie]

Which is nuts.

[Brian Callum]

That's got Hopkins. Hopkins never got hurt.

[Jamie]

I mean, until he fought Joe Smith and got knocked out of the ring. He fell on his head.

[Brian Callum]

50 with a gray beard. Crazy 50, by the way. Fought from 40 to 50. What nobody could beat him in a division that required speed. Never got hit. He's a genius.

[Jamie]

Yeah, he's one of the greatest.

[Brian Callum]

To me, like, people talk about the greatest athletes and stuff. They never talk about what he was able to accomplish at his age in that division. That's. That has to be part of the conversation.

[Jamie]

Well, by the time he fought Felix Trinidad, people thought he was done already. That was. I think he was 36 at the time. When he knocked out Trinidad, people thought he was over. And then, you know, he just.

[Brian Callum]

Have you had him on this podcast?

[Jamie]

Yeah. Yeah, he's awesome. Yeah, man, I'm a huge fan of that guy.

[Brian Callum]

God, so smart.

[Jamie]

And you know, his lessons from prison, too. He's like, I'm never going back. And they. They said to him, when he's leaving, we'll be see you soon. He's like, no, no, no, not me. And just live. He used to run with a tennis ball, apparently. Yeah, yeah.

[Brian Callum]

That's obsession.

[Jamie]

Yeah, well, that's how you become a Bernard Hopkins.

[Brian Callum]

That's how you get out of where you are too.

[Jamie]

Right, Exactly.

[Brian Callum]

You got to plan your escape.

[Jamie]

The thing about Terrence, though, is, like, Terence is like an artist. Like, what he did in there, it's like, God, I could watch clips from that fight over and over again, probably for decades. He's an artist.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

Like what he's doing in there, it's like he's like, not just beating you. He's. He's beating Canelo Alvarez and kind of making him look a little silly and doing it with the highest stakes humanly possible with a guy that can break your face with one punch. I mean, missiles are headed his way, and he's like, nope, I know. Nope, not here, but I'm here. Bam. He hit him so many times where Canelo had whiffed, and then he would counter. It's like, God, that's so pretty. That's so pretty. Because, like, to be end of in the fire, it's like, there's guys that could move real good, and they were really hard to hit. Like Willie Pep, you know, Willie Pep had crazy footwork.

[Brian Callum]

Mayweather.

[Jamie]

Mayweather. But stand right in front of you, though. It's a bad example because what I'm saying is, like, these guys that are hard to hit, that aren't moving, they're right in front of you, and you can't hit them. That's Mayweather. Like, but there's guys that were. They were hard to hit, but they were real mobile, like Michael Venom Page in MMA is a great example. You can't hit that.

[Brian Callum]

So beautiful.

[Jamie]

She's moving in and out so fast. Like, you can't.

[Brian Callum]

I heard he was at the mothership. Yeah, I was there, but I missed him.

[Jamie]

See, look at this. Boom. I mean, there's missiles coming his way, bro. He's so slick. Like, every time Canelo would catch that.

[Brian Callum]

You see him catch that body shot with his elbow.

[Jamie]

Yep.

[Brian Callum]

You're not touching.

[Jamie]

Catch it and then fire right back. And he did get tagged a couple times, but even there, as Canelo rushes in, he gets popped.

[Brian Callum]

You make one mistake with Canelo, though, you're going out like that. Yeah. That margin.

[Jamie]

Look at this.

[Brian Callum]

And he catches it.

[Jamie]

That is so pretty.

[Brian Callum]

Look at that.

[Jamie]

And to do that two weight classes above his, the normal weight. That is a one weight class above the previous world championship that he held.

[Brian Callum]

Meanwhile, he was 187. Do you know that?

[Jamie]

Yeah. Oh, no. Listen, man, when I talked to him, it was. I talked to him on the podcast a couple of years ago, and he wanted this fight really bad.

[Brian Callum]

How thick was he?

[Jamie]

It was normal size, you know, but he did it the right way. He took a long time in between fights. He did a lot of deadlifts and a lot. There's a lot of, like, strength and conditioning videos of him. We see him, like, really working hard and really, like, put on quality mass where he did it slowly over the. You know, he didn't get roided up and then just gained a bunch of muscle. It's useless. He did it smoothly and slowly, so he kept all of his skills, but now he had more size, and now he had more strength. All skills, all speed. Everything was still there because that's an illusion, too. People think you're going to get slower if you get bigger. That's not real. That's. It depends. You're not going to get. Unless you get really crazy bodybuilder big, like Mr. Olympia big. But Evander Holyfield didn't slow down when he moved up to heavyweight. He actually got more fit and picked up his punching power. You know, it's like you can put on muscle and you can get stronger and still be fast. And Terrence totally showed that in that fight. That fight was just. That's what boxing is really all about.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah, I love. It's like boxing is one of the few. It's such an honest place in this crazy world where I don't know where the fuck the truth is.

[Jamie]

Like, I don't know how you get the judge's decision.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah, well, that's true.

[Jamie]

That's a problem. That's a problem with mma, too.

[Brian Callum]

It is, but that's. That even. That is a little bit like, I've been pretty good at predicting after the fight kind of going, I think this guy won't.

[Jamie]

You know, Terry almost got in that fight. He was only. If he didn't win the last two rounds, he would have lost that fight.

[Brian Callum]

Well, Canelo still loved him.

[Jamie]

That's not good. No, I mean, in terms of like a judge, you. You shouldn't be looking at how much someone's loved. You should be looking at. Of course everybody loves Canelo. I love Canelo, but I wonder if once he gets into the ring, you have to judge him on his performance in the ring, period. That's it.

[Brian Callum]

I know, but you know, human beings, you love somebody, you already have.

[Jamie]

I know corruption, Brian.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

I know Vegas odds. I know gambling. There's a lot.

[Brian Callum]

There is.

[Jamie]

There's a lot you have to take into consideration. A lot of these people live in Vegas. You don't think they know degenerate gamblers.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

You don't think they owe money? You don't think maybe something's going on. Like, a lot of these guys, like. And gals, by the way, they were connected to super shady people back in the day. And decisions were with.

[Brian Callum]

Do you remember that fight?

[Jamie]

Gambling odds?

[Brian Callum]

Yeah. What was that? When Bradley. Remember Tim Bradley?

[Jamie]

Yeah. Wow. Yeah. That same lady, she also. She. She'd scored a few that were like, what? But that was a big one. That was a big one. But that's also. You have to think of that when you see a big decision like that, where it's funky, you got to go, if I was A gambler, like, all you have to do is get one person. Say if you're betting on a split decision, you have to. Just one person in the bag. He just got one person that scores it the other way, no matter what. And you give that person 200 grand, and now you're going to make 20 million. That's real. Like, people do stuff like that. At least they have in the past. Of course they have.

[Brian Callum]

Well, let me ask you this. As you. You know, with. With AI and as. As we get better and better at these videos that you can't tell whether it's real or not, you know, I really wonder.

[Jamie]

Maybe it's good. Maybe just stop looking.

[Brian Callum]

That's. That's what I was thinking. That's what I was thinking.

[Jamie]

We're wasting our lives staring at.

[Brian Callum]

That's right. My mind. That's what my whole special is about. It's called False Gods. Because that be that has become. That is what we're bent over in prayer with. We're always looking at it all the time. That dopamine scroll, right? We're just a nation of drug addicts.

[Jamie]

If there's a drug that made you stare at your hand all day, you'd avoid that.

[Brian Callum]

Literally. The theme of what I wrote about, because I was like, I. I'm. I find myself. Like, I. I find myself going, I'm not gonna look at my phone. And then I get sucked in. And there's fun, good things to watch, whether it's old interviews, whether it's snippets of this, but it's a highlight reel, man.

[Jamie]

It's like mining for gold, though, in a really shitty spot. Like, you're not getting a lot of gold. Every now and then you get a little gold flake, some funny meme. Ah. And then I'll send it to all my friends, but I find out the really funny ones, they make it to me anyway.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

Like, that's what I really want. I really want the funny things. So. The funny things, like funny memes and shit like that, they'll make it to me no matter what.

[Brian Callum]

You know what I've done? I was. I was listening to a political podcast. My buddy walked by, said something so cool because he's done really well in life, and he goes. He goes, are you listening to the weather again? And I was like, man, I am. I'm either listening because I want somebody to confirm my bias, or I'm listening because I maybe want to hear something I kind of already know, or it'll be a different twist. That Somehow in my mind I can use as an argument against somebody I already disagree with you. It's all that. Right. I listen to. I'm reading novels now. I'm not doing it anymore. I'm done.

[Jamie]

Well, novels are cool.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah, I'm just, I, I, my problem is I don't think you do this at all. But I do know there are people. You can make a lot of money in the podcast space, in the influencer space, if you draw strong good guy, bad guy narratives and if you can make those narratives biblical. Please. Now you're really in the money. And I, I'm always wary of that. I'm always wary of that reductionist kind of idea that bringing. I do think there are. Sometimes there are good guys and bad guys. I think there is good and evil. I think that's worth a worthy conversation to have. But man, you got to be careful about getting sucked into those narratives because sometimes it's not that simple.

[Jamie]

Well, it's also what we were talking about earlier. People that aren't good at anything in their life and their life gets captured by whatever team they're on, whether they're Democrats or Republicans.

[Brian Callum]

Correct.

[Jamie]

And that becomes your whole identity.

[Brian Callum]

So how do you avoid it?

[Jamie]

Don't be a Jesus Christ. It's a rigged game. It's a rigged game and you get to jump in with your dick in your hand. Like, what are you doing? Yeah, it's dumb. People always want me to say I'm a Republican or say I'm a Democrat. Like I am. I mostly think in a left way. Mostly. But I also am a firm believer in discipline and human nature.

[Brian Callum]

Personal responsibility.

[Jamie]

Personal responsibility and willpower. I think willpower is a real thing. I've lived my whole life with it. I know what it is. So to pretend that it's not. And some people, you know, they don't just need to get their together. That's not, that's not helpful for them. It's not really kind and compassionate because it's not being honest with them by telling people they're fine the way they are. No, you're not. You know, you should be on a goal of constant self improvement.

[Brian Callum]

Yes.

[Jamie]

Doesn't mean you have to be an. You know, and that's the other thing. People that are weak, they always want to conflate being disciplined and having personal responsibility with being an. No. You can be a really nice person and still, you know, you don't, you don't have to be a. Just because you take care of yourself and you're healthy it's like this is a scam.

[Brian Callum]

Exactly.

[Jamie]

It's a. It's a cover that weak.

[Brian Callum]

I know you're less throw out than me, but let's calm down.

[Jamie]

You know, it's nonsense.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

It's like people just get so tribal, and the reason why they do it is because they don't have anything else in their life. They don't have anything that's really important and interesting in their life. So they get, like, completely captured by politics.

[Brian Callum]

You see this now with, like, you got to give Trump some credit for bringing peace to a part of the world where, you know, that's been at war since Moses had a parting of the ways with the Pharaoh.

[Jamie]

Yeah. And it was a lot. They had to give up a lot. Right. They had to give up. How many Palestinian prisoners did they have?

[Brian Callum]

250. A lot of them are, you know.

[Jamie]

Those poor Israelis that have been there for two years and what has happened to those people during that time. But imagine being an Israeli, really prisoner, and you're in Gaza just starving and yelling the out of that place for two years and never thinking you're going to get home, see your family again. So are they released now? Have they been released?

[Brian Callum]

All 20 living hostages have been released. Some of them are in really bad condition, so they don't want to show them on camera because they've got to.

[Jamie]

Be starving to death.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah, they're right in the hospital.

[Jamie]

Well, they're probably never going to be the same again. No, you know, that's. That's the thing about starving to death is like, your organs have massive damage. Like, yeah, I, I knew this guy.

[Brian Callum]

But Hollywood's quiet.

[Jamie]

His. His dad had been captured in Vietnam and tortured and starved, and he was never the same again physically, even after he came back and put the weight back on like he's. His body was up.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

From the torture from. And from the starvation and the stress, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Every. Everything. It's just amazing that this episode is brought to you by Gold Belly. This is insane. There's a site called Gold Belly, and they ship legendary food from America's best restaurants straight to your house anywhere. Doesn't matter where you live, they'll find you. I'm talking pastrami from New York, Terry Black's brisket in Austin, Lou Malnati's deep dish from Chicago, Pat's cheesesteaks from Philly, Promonti Bros. Sandwiches in Pittsburgh, Maine. Lobster rolls, the real deal, straight from these iconic mom and pop shops all across the country. And the best part, anyone can make Gold Belly and be eating world class food in minutes. Game day, Fight night. Friends coming over. Don't be the person with frozen grocery store wings. Show up with Texas barbecue and actual Philly cheesesteaks and people will think you teleported it in. You're the legend of the party. Go to goldbelly.com use the promo code rogan and get 20 off your first order. That's goldbelly.com code rogan for 20 off your first order. Gold belly Legendary food shipped anywhere this episode is brought to you by shipstation. Managing an e commerce business is challenging enough. Without the added chaos of shipping and order fulfillment, it can feel like trying to herd cats on roller skates. That's where ShipStation comes in. With its simple dashboard, ShipStation lets you handle all your shipping needs in one place, automating tasks, securing the best shipping rates, and even printing labels with a single click. Whether you're shipping a few packages a day or thousands, it grows alongside your business. Plus it integrates seamlessly with all the services and selling channels you already use, so you can keep your existing workflow intact while making it even more efficient. Ready to bring calm to the chaos? Go to shipstation.com and use the code JRE to sign up for your free trial.

[Brian Callum]

Survive no sunlight. Living in a tunnel for two years.

[Jamie]

Well, you know, whatever. Whatever Trump had to do to do this, what's fascinating is watching people's reaction where they don't want to reluctantly give him credit for it, because it's not just this. He's negotiated multiple peace agreements between African countries that have been at war for decades. And this is just one more that he's done. On top of that, it's like people can't get past what they, they think of him in terms of the bluster or maybe the Epstein files or this like, look, there's no perfect person that's going to be president. And to pretend it's Barack Obama is crazy. If you really look at Barack Obama's what his legacy, what he actually brought to the United States in terms of punishment of whistleblowers, drone deaths, Some fucking crazy number. Like, plus 80% of the people killed by drones were innocent.

[Brian Callum]

Incredible.

[Jamie]

There's a lot. But. But that doesn't mean he wasn't a great spokesman and a great representative of America, because he certainly was. Because he was brilliant and articulate and just seemed calm and measured and all those things are great. But the reality is this country is bought and paid for by huge financial interests who would like us to Go bomb places because they make. Make bombs, they make weapons. And those weapons cost a load of money. And they come up with all sorts of cute reasons why we should go up Yemen and.

[Brian Callum]

Have you had Lindy Lee on your podcast?

[Jamie]

No, but I was going to get to this point. But also you have to have weapons because the rest of the world is. So it's like you have to have this balanced perspective on this stuff. Like we, we don't want war. We should never want war. You should celebrate a president that is core idea is no more war. Some people like, yeah, but he bombed Iran, right? I think you had to. I think it was like one of these things with Israel with a negotiation. I'll bomb the site, I'll tell them to leave. Jesus Christ. Because you know, Israel's just bombing this out of Gaza. And they're like, they don't care about human shields. And they're like, you, you got. You attacked us. It's over. We're gonna wipe you out. So this guy is. What he's done is if it sticks. So here's the thing. Does it stick? I don't know. I mean, they've always, they've come to multiple peace agreements in the past.

[Brian Callum]

Didn't hamas murder literally 32 members of one family because they were collaborating, quote unquote, with Israel in the street? Do you see that?

[Jamie]

They shot a few guys. I saw.

[Brian Callum]

It was more than a few.

[Jamie]

Well, I only saw one where there was the three guys they shot in front of everybody. And they probably were. That's the thing. The Mossad and the IDF are brilliant, right? The reason why they got all those pagers to those guys and then blew their dicks off is because they're geniuses, right? The reason why they invented Pegasus, the ability to just listen to your phone, read all your text messages, get all your dick pics, all that stuff. Because they're brilliant. And of course they infiltrate every organization they info. That's how they get all their information. They literally have a soldier that is so dedicated to Israel that they give their life to go pretend to be Hamas and probably even commit terror just so that they can be legit. And then that person will feed all the information to Israel.

[Brian Callum]

That's right.

[Jamie]

I mean, you have to have like the people who love Israel. Like I, you know, you could be one of those people. Like, I hate Zionists, I hate Zionism, I hate what they've done. I get it. But what they are doing is the like most black belt version of tribalism, the most black belt version.

[Brian Callum]

Well, because they're.

[Jamie]

Because they have to.

[Brian Callum]

Well, because every threat for Israel is existential. One of the things I think the strength of Israel. It's a fascinating idea because when Trump made a speech at the Knesset, Bibi Netanyahu was booed by a lot of Israelis and Trump was hailed. And the point of that is that Israel is a democracy where they're constantly arguing with each other. There's constant debate. And your job, if you're prime minister or whatever, is always precarious because there are people who are always going to be critical and they'll be Israelis, whereas there isn't this sort of monolithic sort of idea like the Knesset has. But the one thing that unifies Israelis, no matter what, they'll debate. You want to talk about the war in Gaza and how it was prosecuted? There's plenty of legitimate. You leveled the place, that's fine, but don't make one mistake. You fucking. When. When they're threatened with their existence, you want to threaten the existence of Israel, they'll unify right quick and they'll, they'll blow up pagers. They got a thousand ways to get to you.

[Jamie]

Yeah, they have to. The point is they do infiltrate those organizations and they do do that, however.

[Brian Callum]

Why were you smiling just now?

[Jamie]

Because I just sent Jamie a funny meme.

[Brian Callum]

Oh.

[Jamie]

I'll send one. I'll show you one that's more offensive that we can't show in the air. But this one's one of my favorites.

[Brian Callum]

Oh, I saw that. I think you sent that to me.

[Jamie]

It's so funny. I. That's. See that. Keep this Israel. Be like, we took out Hamas.

[Brian Callum]

Holy. We shouldn't be laughing. But that's ridiculous, bro.

[Jamie]

It's funny.

[Brian Callum]

It is crazy.

[Jamie]

Listen, this is. You want to live. You want to live your life? You can, you gotta, you can't decide what's funny.

[Brian Callum]

You gotta laugh.

[Jamie]

There's. That's funny. I'm not mocking anyone's death. And I'm, I'm. I think that's a terrible thing that it happen at all. But it's also. There's, you know, this is the Charlie Kirk question. When Charlie Kirk was on Patrick Bet David, it's like, why did it take so long for them to respond? Was there a stand down order? Was there like. So people get all conspiratorial with stuff like that. Then things get real weird because there is this thing that we don't want to believe, but we do know is true that there are certain groups in this world that are Very motivated to have a war. And no one wants to believe that. Everyone wants to believe the only reason to have a military is because we're the just, righteous, great country of the United States of America. And we don't do anything unless we're defending ourselves or defending some other democracy that's being destroyed by communism or whatever. Right. We like to think that that's not totally real. And Smedley Butler figured that out in 1933 when he wrote War is a Racket, and that's still today. The idea that in 2025, that that's not the case anymore, that would be very naive.

[Brian Callum]

Right, people?

[Jamie]

And it's not just America.

[Brian Callum]

Right? They profit from instability. They profit.

[Jamie]

And then it also. Bill Clinton literally said that. BB and this is Bill Clinton's words. Bibi Netanyahu wants there to be a war so he stays in power.

[Brian Callum]

He said that.

[Jamie]

Bill Clinton did recently. He's like, it, I'm old. I'm gonna start telling the truth. By the way, I love getting my dick sucked. Can I tell you, that's my number one reason why I became president. They all wanted to suck it. Everybody wanted to suck it. Once I was in that office, they did. So I up and I got one girl with a big mouth. She was a little young. I up, I got crazy, left a.

[Brian Callum]

Spot on her dress.

[Jamie]

But he's, he was saying this, and I guess he was just saying, look, look, the Epstein files are coming out. Let me just get real. Let me just get real and say.

[Brian Callum]

If I come to your head, what do you think your best assessment of what Epstein, who was Epstein, Was he working for?

[Jamie]

Well, I don't know. Right. So I'm just guessing. Everybody wants to say he was working for the Mossad. He very well could have been. He could have been working for the CIA. He could have been a guy who was on his own, but also working with them. Right. Like a guy that they used but they never fully endorsed.

[Brian Callum]

Like an asset. Yeah, yeah.

[Jamie]

And a guy who could move money.

[Brian Callum]

Around, he definitely good at laundering money.

[Jamie]

The, the moving money around stuff was very weird because he had money through no way that anybody could ever explain. He had an enormous amount of money through no way that nobody could ever explain. Which, you know, if you're a state funded, you're funded by Israel and Israel's funded by America. And, you know, there's also NGOs and non profits and there's ways to move money around where you can give this guy money.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

So he was like Weinstein, who is an economist. Right. Weinstein's a legitimate mathematician.

[Brian Callum]

Eric.

[Jamie]

Yeah. So when Eric met him, his first inclination was he was a fraud.

[Brian Callum]

He's a construct.

[Jamie]

Yeah, a construct. And did he tell you the whole story about the girl sitting on his lap? So the Epstein, while he's meeting with Eric Weinstein for the first time, has a beautiful girl sitting on his lap and he. A woman? I shouldn't say girl. She was. He said she was like in her 20s and she's sitting on his lap and he's bouncing around. So her tits are juggling around while.

[Brian Callum]

He'S asking math questions.

[Jamie]

Yeah. Talking serious. So he was obviously nerd fishing. He was fishing for nerds. And I think he caught a lot of nerds in that net. There's a lot of those guys that wound up going to that island. They probably thought, this is great. We get to party.

[Brian Callum]

Nothing's free.

[Jamie]

And they probably felt like they were rock stars because they get to hang out with the intellectual elite on an. Is with a guy who's just a billionaire philanthropist, who's eccentric, who just loves women. He's a professed bachelor. And it all seemed too good to be crude.

[Brian Callum]

So true.

[Jamie]

Because it was so he was. I think he was an asset. Whether or not it was for the Mossad strictly. Or Israel strictly. Or the United States strictly. Whether it was a CIA thing, I don't know. But I think it was a. Probably a part of a blackmail compromise effort.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

Because those guys, there's a fucking dirty secret about these people that are in Congress and they party. Okay. They're regular guys.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

And regular women. And they're in their 30s or 40s or whatever they are. And every now and then they do coke and they get drunk and they.

[Brian Callum]

Human beings.

[Jamie]

Remember that D.C. madam that had a whole book of people and then she wound up committing suicide? She said, I'm not suicidal. And see ya. Yeah, because there's probably a lot like that and those kind of honeypot operations. They let these freaks know, like, hey, you're going to be safe with me. Charlie will take care of everything. Look, Bill Clinton used to come here. Don't worry about it. Yeah, we're going to go to the island.

[Brian Callum]

That's a big endorsement. It's like presidents were here. So it must be a secure area.

[Jamie]

Exactly. We are on the island with Bill. This is fine.

[Brian Callum]

And all these girls show up and you're like, well, this is Christmas in July.

[Jamie]

Bill is really interested in string theory. He'd like to talk to you about string theory. So you're sitting down there having cocktails while Bill Clinton's getting a massage from some girl who's rubbing her tits against the back of his head while she's massaging.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

He's like, yeah, that's really interesting. Hey, I'm gonna. I'm kind of tired. I'm gonna take a nap.

[Brian Callum]

Another thing about black holes.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

And I think they all thought that it was this lovely exchange of powerful people and brilliant people, and then they were just getting dirt on all of them. Guys cheating on their wives, guys, whether knowingly or unknowingly, having sex with underage girls.

[Brian Callum]

Everybody.

[Jamie]

Maybe some guys. That was their thing. Sure. Does it seem like with Epstein, that was his thing? Yeah.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah, that's what I think, too. That's. I don't think there's any evidence to either. I think it's all been. I don't think there was collected with that plea deal. And I don't think there's any list that's gonna point to. There's no smoking gun.

[Jamie]

I don't know about that.

[Brian Callum]

I think it's all been, you know, taken care of. I think that it's. I think you could open up every file.

[Jamie]

But that's the truth. Why did they have all those files, what they parade around with these binders?

[Brian Callum]

Because.

[Jamie]

Do you remember those photo ops that they said, like, look, they did like a thing. We have the Epstein files right here, and they had binders. Like, what kind of political theater is that if you don't really have the Epstein files? Probably theater.

[Brian Callum]

And what I mean by that is, I think, like, if they are keeping something quiet, it's because it's. It's video of underage girls or it's video of the victims who don't want that to be out there. And that's. You can't. The Justice Department cannot make that public. They cannot. They cannot bring that to Congress. That's all sealed for their privacy. Right.

[Jamie]

Well, that is the argument. But then they're saying now that there are no files. They're saying there's no video. There's.

[Brian Callum]

I believe. Don't you.

[Jamie]

I don't know. I think they have video. I think if you're got an island and you want consistency, compromise on people, you can't just have hearsay.

[Brian Callum]

I would say. I agree.

[Jamie]

I watched him. That girl. Let's. Let's. Let's sue him. No, that's not how it works. You have to have video, and then you have to show it to the guy. Like, Mr. Clinton.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

Have a seat.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah, but I would agree with that, except for I think if there is video that's somewhere in the, in the archives of an intelligence agency that's not getting out. And I think at. When he had that plea deal in 2008, he got tipped off, remember? And when the feds or whoever, when I think it was the Florida Police Department came to kind of collect all the evidence in Palm beach, those computers weren't there anymore. So all that shit was scrubbed. All that shit was taken out. So part of a plea deal is you don't, you don't collect evidence. There is no evidence. When you have a plea deal, nobody is collecting any evidence. You understand? So it's not like we're going to collect evidence. No, no. The part of the plea deal is we are not. This investigation is over. You plead, you do your time in this jail where you have to, you can go out and play golf during the day, but you have to come back.

[Jamie]

No, no. He was under home arrest. He would only have to go there like a couple days a week.

[Brian Callum]

Right. He'd be in. He'd have to go to the county jail in Palm beach during the day. Right. So that's what I'm saying is I think all that.

[Jamie]

I think he did like weekends. I think he did like weekends in the jail. I'm not kidding. I think they allowed him to work.

[Brian Callum]

Money talks, baby.

[Jamie]

It's not just money talks. It's influence. And the, the guy who's the arresting sheriff was told this guy was intelligent. Yeah, that's what he was told. So I would assume that that guy's telling the truth because he's a sheriff. He's got no reason to lie or whoever he was.

[Brian Callum]

Right.

[Jamie]

But I think there's a lot of super powerful people that are very, very, very wealthy and they have the ability to say whether or not things get out.

[Brian Callum]

I think it's interesting how some ideas take root and, and stay strong. Like, you know, sometimes you'll just find that people will just. All of a sudden everybody will start agreeing on one thing. Like that whole transgender movement that just came out of nowhere in a way. I mean, it had been around, I've been percolating, but it gets co opted. And then all of a sudden everybody is just.

[Jamie]

Well, it's foreign governments for sure. Involved. Really? To what extent?

[Brian Callum]

You mean like bots and stuff? Like foreign. Foreign influence.

[Jamie]

China. China spent a lot of money pushing transgender ideology on America.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[Jamie]

Yeah. And this is not. If you're a transgender person hearing this it's not to deny you. I'm just saying that what, what China has done was push people further and further towards not just acceptance, but indoctrination. And I think they also want outrage. They want us fighting with each other about stuff. So like they'll, they'll push all kinds of crazy stuff. Like one of the things that is really nuts that I used to bring up and people would say this is ridiculous. Who believes this? It's that pedophilia is not a crime, that it's a sexual orientation. This lady who's running for governor of California, this crazy lady Porter or whatever the fuck, Katie Porter, that screams at her staff, get out of my fucking shot.

[Brian Callum]

She's the worst.

[Jamie]

She looks like the way she talks, like the way she talks when, when the cameras are rolling and she doesn't think anybody's gonna see it, like what a monster is the worst. But she did one of those interviews where she was talking about pedophilia and.

[Brian Callum]

She was talking about minor attracted people. You mean Maps?

[Jamie]

Yeah, See I used to say that, that they're talking about this in certain universities and people like that is never going to go anywhere. No one's going to buy into that. This lady's running for the governor of California and she said that, what is her exact quote on minor attracted persons or people that. But she was talking about criminalizing that.

[Brian Callum]

Well, can I tell you what that philosophy is there? Because I've actually read about it. Here's the idea. You, you're a pedophile, which means, by the way, really weird thing. You can look this up, Jamie. A lot of pedophilia, pedophiles are left handed. Did you know that?

[Jamie]

Well, look out. Lefties.

[Brian Callum]

Well, the significance there is that it's neurological, right? There's a, there's a, there's a condition in the brain, right? Okay, so you, you're attracted to minors. It just happens to you. It's a curse. Holy. I see a 7 year old or whatever the it is, okay? So the idea is this, you have this affliction. You might be a, you might be a person who's otherwise pays his taxes, loves his mom, loves his friends.

[Jamie]

Don't act on this thing right now.

[Brian Callum]

Watch. Now they have this overwhelming urge, the way somebody would have say if they were a gambler, whatever the fuck it is. And they have no one to talk to because if they go to a therapist, the therapist has to tell the police, right? Okay, so now you have no one to talk to. So the idea just this is the idea is if we destigmatize pedophilia and call it a minor attracted person and, and you're allowed to talk to a therapist without having to be incarcerated. The idea would be maybe they can get help and they won't touch kids because a professional can help them, et cetera, et cetera. That's the idea. I understand the, I guess, philosophy behind that, but we get into this very dangerous territory where everything becomes medicalized and everything becomes an excuse. So all of a sudden we find out, and we may. Sapolsky says this maybe in 20 years we find out serial killers just had something wrong with their brain. And if we had the same lesion on our brain, we'd be the same way, you know?

[Jamie]

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[Brian Callum]

But it doesn't mean you don't put those people away because they are a danger to society.

[Jamie]

There's a guy in Austin who stabbed a bunch of people at the university and I think it was in 2017 and he's getting released. He killed a Kid?

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

You can't kill the very promising musician. And he went to a mental institution. So they, they, I think they said not guilty for reasons of insanity. So this guy's been on his medication and he hasn't hallucinated in a couple years. So now they're releasing him from this mental institution to some sort of a. A home where they monitor them closely.

[Brian Callum]

No, until you can actually cut out.

[Jamie]

What did he represent, Kate Porter say about minor attracted persons? So what did she say? Actual statement, Context. So what is her statement?

[Brian Callum]

So she said that she didn't say that minor attracted persons are. Pedophilia is an identity, nor did she say it's not a crime. Her actual comments have been repeatedly misrepresented online.

[Jamie]

Right, but I saw the video.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

What did she say in the video? She never said it's not a crime.

[Brian Callum]

No, she was saying her circle comments.

[Jamie]

Were solely focused on condemning baseless and dangerous rhetoric against lbg. Well, how is that lgbt?

[Brian Callum]

She was saying that people were making equivalence between lgbtq, LGBTQ community, and groomers.

[Jamie]

But let's, let's, let's listen to what she actually said. See if you can find the video of her saying it, because then we'll get more understanding of it. Just use the AI and here's a. Just see if you can find a video. Yeah, I think that's it. Here it is. Yeah.

[C]

I wanted to start with Ms. Robinson, if I could. Your organization recently revived released a report analyzing the 500 most viewed most influential tweets that identified LGBTQ people as so called groomers. The groomer narrative is an age old lie to position LGBTQ people as a threat to kids. And what it does is deny them access to public spaces. It stokes fear and, and can even stoke violence. Mr. Robinson, according to its own hateful content policy, does Twitter allow posts calling LGBTQ people groomers? No. I mean, Twitter, along with Facebook and many others, have community guidelines. It's about holding users accountable to those guidelines and acknowledging that when we use phrases and words like groomers and pedophiles to describe people, individuals in our communities that are mothers, that are fathers, that are teachers, that are doctors, it is dangerous. And it's got one purpose. It is to dehumanize us and make us feel like we are not a part of this American society and it has real life consequences. So we are calling on social media companies to uphold their community standards. And we're also calling on any American that's seeing this play out to hold ourselves and our community members accountable. We Wouldn't accept this in our families. We wouldn't accept this in our schools. There's no reason to accept it online.

[Brian Callum]

That's fair.

[C]

I mean, I think you're absolutely right. And it's not this allegation of groomer and pedophile. It is alleging that a person is criminal somehow and engaged in criminal acts merely because of their identity.

[Jamie]

Okay, so that's what it is. So it's taken out of context.

[Brian Callum]

Yes.

[Jamie]

So it's connecting. It's connecting gay people and trans people to pedophilia by calling them groomers.

[Brian Callum]

That's why important to watch her, what she actually said. Instead of getting your fucking information in snippets from TikTok, from other people who have opinions, you're being game.

[Jamie]

Well, this is why a lot of people, like hated Charlie Kirk. That's the same thing.

[Brian Callum]

Totally misunderstood out of.

[Jamie]

Well, yes, yes, but also could have been avoided, you know, by not saying it the way he said it. Like there was some certain things that he said. Like one of them when he was talking about Ketanji Brown Jackson, who's a Supreme Court justice who graduated from Harvard magna cum laude, right? So like saying that you got. What is the exact words he used? Like you didn't have the intellectual ability to be taken seriously.

[Brian Callum]

No, he said that DEI will put people right.

[Jamie]

But he was saying of power. I know what he's. Yeah, but what I'm saying is his saying, what he said that was fucked, was you took the spot from a white person. Like, I know what he's doing. He was trying to make a point.

[Brian Callum]

Right?

[Jamie]

And he was trying to make a point that affirmative action, we should be living in a meritocracy and that we shouldn't be having lower standards for people. But she didn't. There's no evidence that she. She had any lower standards. Part of the problem with Ketanji Brown Jackson is like, you might disagree with her.

[Brian Callum]

She's qualified.

[Jamie]

Yeah, and I disagree. When she. When they asked her about what is a woman? When she was getting confirmed, and she's like, I'm not a biologist. Right, but you're a woman and you have kids. So, like, cut the shit. You're giving into an ideology now. You know what a woman is? A woman is a biological female human being. Does that mean that there aren't men who feel like they're a biological female human being and they have gender dysphoria? No, it doesn't mean that. That's true too. But when you ask me what a woman is, It's a biological female human being that is responsible for every fucking life that's on earth. It's like, it's a very important distinction. Every human being on earth came from a woman.

[Brian Callum]

But this goes back to you and I talking about when you're busy and you're trying to. You're running a business, you're building a brand, you're trying to write jokes, whatever it might be. I don't have time, dude. I like. It's like the rest of us are trying to. I got kids and I got bills and I got a lot of stuff I have to do. It's really hard to do everything.

[Jamie]

So you watch a snippet on Tick Tock and then you get an opinion of someone.

[Brian Callum]

I also don't have time. What do you mean by pronouns right now? I'm. I'm busy over here. Like I.

[Jamie]

Right, but you're also not indoctrinated. You didn't go to school in 2015. You know, but I have a theory. Long time ago.

[Brian Callum]

Here's my theory. I want to hear what you think of this. I was thinking about this, I think part of the transgender thing, at least in colleges and among. And it's interesting how it took root in places of higher education. I think what happened was there was currency in being a minority. There was currency in being oppressed. There's currency in being somebody who's marginalized and struggling. There's something when you are not that. When you are not in those positions, when you're looking at it, somehow it got a little bit romanticized.

[Jamie]

Well, sure. Especially if you're an advantaged, advantaged white kid, then you can be non binary, no skin in the game.

[Brian Callum]

That's what I was saying.

[Jamie]

You get to be a part of that.

[Brian Callum]

You get to be a minority. And if you're black, brown, indigenous, you had to go through slavery, hundreds of years of brutal colonization. But when you're white, you can be blonde hair, blue. I'd come from a great family. But you can be a minority on the same level as somebody who's black because you feel like it. Because you, you're, you're feeling, you have your feelings, you feel like a minority. Therefore I don't have to pay a price for anything.

[Jamie]

Oh, yeah.

[Brian Callum]

But I get to be on. I get to be on the same level. I can be a bigger minority than Dave Chappelle, who's a black man, because, you know, he's, he's, he's attacking me. So now I can attack him because I'm the most vulnerable minority. And I think, I hate to be cynical, but that's a big driver for a lot of people. You know, I'm not saying that transgender people don't exist, but there's certain.

[Jamie]

Yeah, but there's also this cultural narrative that supporting. That makes you a good person on the right side of things. Did you see the debate? They had a debate on Vice. Vice does these weird debates. And the way they did this one was very strange. It was about. It was women and these feminists and. And these other women that were talking about trans people and whether or not trans people are women. And it got super performative. And here, I'll send it to you.

[Brian Callum]

I want to do this on my podcast.

[Jamie]

It got super performative. And suit. It was like, trans women are women. Like, that's not an argument. Like what you're saying. This lady has a point about showers and locker rooms and. And competing in sports. And this is to deny that this is a point. Here, play this.

[C]

Trans women be included in feminist conversations. How about in women's spaces?

[Jamie]

Yes, they're women.

[Brian Callum]

Oh, boy.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[C]

What's the question?

[Brian Callum]

Trans women or women?

[C]

So I. I want to come at this from the position.

[Brian Callum]

So.

[C]

So I play semi pro basketball, semi pro volleyball. So when it comes to, like, athletic spaces, I don't think that trans women should be allowed into athletic spaces because I don't think it's a fair. I think as female athletes, we work so incredibly hard for the little opportunity there is in women's sports. Would this be a barrier like this? There's no barrier. There's less opportunity in some industries. That's what a barrier is. There's less. It's not. No, no, no. It's based on the market. Okay, hold on. So again, we work very hard for the little opportunity that we're given. And the problem is, like, we can't compete. We can't. Like I'm six foot. If I go up against a six foot guy and I play basketball with him, he's going to body me.

[Jamie]

And what am I going against you.

[C]

Even if I have years more of training. And so it's like you're taking away the little opportunity that we're given and we all work, work so hard for will be the end of women's sports. Have you tried confidence, Eli? Confidence can't make me bench what a guy benches. I don't. Just can't make you guys so hostile. She's sharing and confidence. She's sharing and I'd have to go, no, she's not. She's. She's a woman who's had no experience.

[Jamie]

Okay, kill it. Kill it. The woman who watched that a long time ago dressed like a man with short hair said she's trans. That's not a massage.

[Brian Callum]

That's a trans man, by the way.

[Jamie]

Oh, it's a man.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah. That's a man who's now a woman. Yes.

[Jamie]

See that I don't have a problem with. Try that. You could go ahead, do that. Yeah, that doesn't bother me at all. Like, if trans men want to invade men's spaces and pee next to us with a funnel, go for it. I do not care at all. You know why? Because you can't rape me.

[Brian Callum]

No.

[Jamie]

Right. That's the real problem with trans men is that men are creeps.

[Brian Callum]

Especially in female prison prisons. Yes, yes.

[Jamie]

Female prisons is a huge one. Huge one. But it's also just female locker rooms. Like some guy with his dick hanging out is pretending he's a woman. That's real too. There's trans women and then there's perverts who enter into these spaces. This is you given. You've given them a Willy Wonka golden ticket.

[Brian Callum]

It's like. It's like pedophiles who found a safe haven when they could put on a. The guard. The robes of a priest.

[Jamie]

And the crazy thing is like a lot of these things, like that one in LA that the health club that was. They got protested because they kicked a trans woman out of the locker room.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

Multiple times sex offender. Yeah, multiple times sex.

[Brian Callum]

Crazy. What? That happens sometimes. Yeah.

[Jamie]

So someone who's a fucking freak who decides, oh, I'm a woman now, and I'm just going to let my dick shine. Just polish it up in front of these ladies.

[Brian Callum]

Right.

[Jamie]

So you could just oil up your dick in front of, you know, some people just trying to get to yoga class.

[Brian Callum]

I think that conversation has been one.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Brian Callum]

Hasn't it?

[Jamie]

Not totally. Look at those ladies.

[Brian Callum]

That trans women are women. That's a while ago. That was trans five years ago. Yeah.

[Jamie]

Was it five years ago?

[Brian Callum]

Yeah. I think, though, here's what. Here's what I think is important. Just that.

[Jamie]

What are we saying? Yeah, it's Katie Porter energy.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah. Like what?

[Jamie]

That's the same energy.

[Brian Callum]

They will. They stop the conversation. Right? You gotta, you gotta. I don't. I'm not gonna talk to you. I've already made up my mind. Well, that's a religion though, right?

[Jamie]

That's a religious religion. Yeah. You're. You're going along party Lines the same way you would, you know, by not eating things that are haram.

[Brian Callum]

I try to. I try to. I think that if you're going to.

[Jamie]

Be like, haram's bad. Right.

[Brian Callum]

Haram is a. Is an Arabic term for stuff essentially against God in a way. It's forbidden. Haram, I think, means forbidden. But I said haram is sucking dicks around. Well, only if you're. If you're smiling, I think if you're frowning, you're allowed to. I'm not sure how.

[Jamie]

You know what's really crazy? The number one place in the world for the longest time where people got transgender surgeries was Iran. And it wasn't because they were supportive of transgender people. It's because they were punishing gay people. So the only. Yeah, yeah. So the only way to be a. A gay man in a gay relationship, one of you is gonna have to lose a dick.

[Brian Callum]

Now, I wonder if that's true. I heard that, actually. And I wonder, is it.

[Jamie]

Yeah, it's true. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. They. They would punish.

[Brian Callum]

That's.

[Jamie]

That's gay people.

[Brian Callum]

Horrifying to punish somebody that way.

[Jamie]

Yeah. Well, I don't know if it's still number one, but I think that's also the. The origin of lady boys in Thailand. I think a lot of them. Yeah. I think for a long time, it was illegal to be gay in Thailand.

[Brian Callum]

I saw some very convincing looking.

[Jamie]

Well, that's the thing. If you're going to be a trans person, being a small Asian really helps.

[Brian Callum]

Not a Samoan.

[Jamie]

Right.

[Brian Callum]

Bad bone structure. Bad bone structure, sir.

[Jamie]

But liking trans people like the mountain as trans. It's a real issue.

[Brian Callum]

Not gonna go well. Brian Shaw is not gonna make a pretty woman.

[Jamie]

Right. Imagine him being on that volleyball team.

[Brian Callum]

We have no high heels.

[Jamie]

He's a woman. I mean, she. She's a woman.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

Trans women are women. What's the question?

[Brian Callum]

Yeah, good luck. What's the question? Good luck.

[Jamie]

What is it? What are you saying? You f. You should be studied in a museum. They should. One day, they're gonna look at that lady and that ideology. Like, look at this virus that infected these people's brains.

[Brian Callum]

Crazy.

[Jamie]

It's bananas.

[Brian Callum]

But, you know, but I think, like, with the Charlie Kirk thing, when people were celebrating. Right. Horrible. But I. I was saying, man, we better hold ourselves to it. If you want to be somebody who's. Let's call. I call myself a traditionalist or whatever the fuck it is. Maybe I'm a little right to center, depending on the subject. Maybe I'm left in this. But I thought that was horrific. But you got to hold yourself to a high standard. Meaning, you know, Trayvon Martin's killer, George Zimmerman, he signs autographs at gun shows. He signs Skittles. You know, I know they had a struggle and stuff, but that was a kid who was doing no crime at all.

[Jamie]

Well, he was just being harassed by a guy who's playing cop.

[Brian Callum]

And that guy's gun sold for something like $250,000. So how do you think his family feels? How do you think people on that side? So don't be a fucking hypocrite. It's real easy to be a hypocrite. And I. And what Charlie Kirk was guilty of doing nothing other than taking his ideas and pitting them against all comers. That's beautiful.

[Jamie]

Right? And if you disagree with those ideas, the real way to handle it is to address them.

[Brian Callum]

Beat it with a better idea.

[Jamie]

But the problem is most people don't have an opportunity to communicate with him. And so they see these young kids communicating with him on these college campuses and him trouncing these young kids. And you see things getting combative or argumentative. And then you see clips. And so the clips, the little tiny ones, like, you don't have the intellectual capacity, so to be taken seriously. And so you had to take your spot from a white person. Like just that clip is a real problem. Because he didn't have to say it that way, but I know what he was trying to say. What he should have said is a more qualified person, because in reality, the people that get discriminated the most when it comes to particularly universities are Asians. So if you wanted to, like, have a theory of white supremacy that goes out the window when you look at standards that universities have, because the people that they discriminate against the most are Asians. Chinese, because they do so well.

[Brian Callum]

Crush.

[Jamie]

They crush because they have old school immigrant mentality, as Joey Diaz likes.

[Brian Callum]

You'll never see, by the way, you will never see a Chinese or an Asian, but Chinese, Korean or Japanese person, you'll never see them complain.

[Jamie]

You will probably will complain.

[Brian Callum]

Bobby's different. Bobby's different. But Bobby's also hilarious.

[Jamie]

A few made it through the net that will complain.

[Brian Callum]

Bobby's a comic, though. Bobby's like a great comic. So it's different.

[Jamie]

But it is. But I'm just joking.

[Brian Callum]

For the most. Yeah, for the most part.

[Jamie]

They don't all have discipline is the part. No, but they are hard working. Like as a group, excel. They're hard working People and they, they rarely complain and they rarely protest. So when they have to sue Harvard, it's probably because of something real. And it turns out it was because of something real. And it's not just Harvard. It's. Multiple universities have higher standards that they apply to Asian people because the Asian people work harder and because they don't want their school to be overrun by Asians.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

But I say tough shit if you can't compete. This is a fucking meritocracy. It's a meritocracy if it's.

[Brian Callum]

They did the same thing to Jews in, in the 50s in Harvard. All these Jews were getting into Harvard. They're like, we have to have a quota that's going to be overrun with Jews. Yeah.

[Jamie]

But then there's also the reality that people that live in poor communities have way shittier schools and way less funding and way less hope. And that's bad for everybody.

[Brian Callum]

Right.

[Jamie]

I don't think the. The solution is to let unqualified people in. And this is like with affirmative action, pissed a lot of people off. I think the solution is find the root of the problem and pump a bunch of resources into cleaning up communities and making these schools better and making these communities better and coming up opening community centers and giving people a chance to get the out of whatever. Give them some trades or skills or teach them sports or music or something that gives them hope that they can do outside of gang banging and selling crack. And the thing that I always point to is that that could be you. If you were born in that area, that would be you. That's a human being that's trapped in this community. I don't think the solution is take this guy who's got Cs and give him a job over a guy who gets straight A's. I think the solution is find out why this guy has C's. Where did he come from? Why is this place been ignored? If we're real, if leaders are real leaders, why would you ignore the most disenfranchised people in the world unless you're using them as political pawns? What you should do is try to figure out a way to make it profitable for businesses. The same way Halliburton, like when we blew up Iraq, Halliburton came in and made a shit ton of money rebuilding things. Make it profitable to make these fucking communities safe again. Make it profitable to rebuild.

[Brian Callum]

But you have to start with telling the truth. Okay? And people don't want to. So you. We can't even get out of the fucking Gates. So if I say something like, the biggest problem in some communities, by the way, certain white communities, definitely. In certain black communities, the biggest problem is fatherlessness. If I say that, there are plenty of people that say that's. That's. We're already. I'm already going to push back because you're already being racist.

[Jamie]

Yeah, but I can't have a conversation statistic. Right, right.

[Brian Callum]

It is like 70%.

[Jamie]

And, you know, that's one of many problems.

[Brian Callum]

Right. But I had. I never forgot. When it comes back to Chinese stuff, I remember when. So if you look what the Chinese did to Manchuria in the. In the 30s, Iris Chang wrote a book about it. I thought it was called the Rape of Nanking. She did all the research, and Iris Chang ended up killing herself. And I think her mother or someone said it was because of the. Just the trauma of doing the research of what they did.

[Jamie]

Well, they had contests to see who could kill the most people in a short amount of time with their sword.

[Brian Callum]

It was the most ferocious killing besides, I think, Rwanda in history, but a concentrated number. And I said to my taekwondo teacher, I was in college, and he was Korean, and I said, why haven't the Chinese asked for some kind of reparation? Why haven't they sort of like, asked for formal apologies and stuff? And he said, because in Asian culture, Chinese, Korean culture, Japanese culture, the idea is this. The Chinese said, oh, well, that happened to us because we allowed it to happen. We didn't. We didn't have our guard up. We weren't strong. And it'll never happen again because you're never doing that to us again. And it was really fucking wild. I was like, damn, man. That's all. That's a crazy thing. But that's. That's inherent to that culture, which is radical responsibility. Like, you're responsible. I don't give a fuck. Chinese people have dealt with a lot of discrimination. I believe the word chink comes from them working on the railroad. So the sound of the chink Ching, you know, like that. Yeah, I think that's where it. Look that up, Jamie. That's where that, that, that. But they suffered a shitload of discrimination and they just set up shop anywhere in the worst neighborhoods. Whatever it was, there's always Chinese restaurant right now, probably in the Congo.

[Jamie]

Let's find out. Let's use Perplexity, which is one of our sponsors.

[Brian Callum]

Thank you.

[Jamie]

And see if that's where the origin of the word cenk came from, even saying that right there. So we could just clip that Out. I know they're using. They're using slurs.

[Brian Callum]

Come for me. It doesn't matter.

[Jamie]

They're using slurs. But that does make sense because they just.

[Brian Callum]

They're no excuses. They just excel. You'll. You'll learn how to play a classical instrument fluently and be great in finance.

[Jamie]

How did they get people to work on the railroads, specifically from China? Like, what was the origin?

[Brian Callum]

I think they came here. I think it was part of the gold rush, and I think a number of them came here on the West Coast, I think through San Francisco.

[Jamie]

And how they wind up being the predominant workforce of the.

[Brian Callum]

They needed labor.

[Jamie]

Anything about the. So etymology.

[Brian Callum]

Sorry, if I'm wrong.

[Jamie]

Complexity was the same. Iron, chink, fish butchering machine. Replacement, 1905. Replacement the Chinese laborers and fisheries. And reinforced the slurs prominence as a racist term during that period. Oh, wow. So that's crazy. So instead. Okay, so the derogatory application may also stem from a resemblance to chink, meaning a narrow opening or a crack, like a chink in the armor. Huh.

[Brian Callum]

Butchering machine.

[Jamie]

Well, I guess I was wrong, but the fish butchering machine was about. It's an iron. It's doing the work of the Chinese people. So that's why they call it an iron chink. It's like a slur of the machine. It's not like they were named after the machine. Initially applied to Chinese immigrants, it's used broadly to target Eastern Asian people in general. So what was the origin? When did it start?

[Brian Callum]

Well, some of it.

[Jamie]

So 1880. Coinciding with everybody. Increased Chinese immigration to North America during the late 19th century, when anti Chinese sentiment was strong. Yeah, it seems like it's just short for China.

[Brian Callum]

All right, my bad.

[Jamie]

No worries. Makes sense, though.

[Brian Callum]

Sounded good.

[Jamie]

Sounds like one of those things someone.

[Brian Callum]

Says in a barbershop from a Chinese person.

[Jamie]

Interesting. Well, he probably believes it too.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

He needs to use AI. Gotta use AI Is not always right. You know, there's. It's only based on what's out there. You know, there's. There's things that are just not factually correct or there's a problem where whatever government or agency or whatever you're researching has pushed so much propaganda through that the standard of what you like, standard of care or standard of education or standard of whatever. Is this incorrect stuff? One of the weird things that Huberman was saying when he was talking to one of his colleagues who is a physician, and he said, what percentage of what is in the medical literature is incorrect? And he said 50% yeah, I heard that.

[Brian Callum]

It's crazy.

[Jamie]

50% in medical school is incorrect. So you could research something like that. And, you know, and it's in the medical literature, so the AI would assume that it's correct, but it is not correct. Yeah, because people are full of shit.

[Brian Callum]

Right.

[Jamie]

And they don't like to be corrected, and they don't like to admit when they're wrong. And they also don't like to rewrite history books, and they don't like to rewrite things. They push back real hard against that stuff.

[Brian Callum]

Right.

[Jamie]

You know, like this idea that we're always on this, like, constant search for truth. So, yeah, some people. And some people under constant search to protect their ego and their reputation because they've said one thing in the past. So now they have 30 years. Yes. They write books about it, and they have to lie and obfuscate because they can't admit that they were wrong.

[Brian Callum]

I remember this guy who said he came up with the whole theory on echinacea, which is good for colds, and then they did this exhaustive study about echinacea, and they were like, listen, we've done 25 studies. It doesn't make a dent. Which I can attest to it because I used to take a shitload of it. Stay sick of. Yeah.

[Jamie]

People used to say echinacea and golden.

[Brian Callum]

That's right. And I took those two, and I used to take the. Out of those.

[Jamie]

Promise.

[Brian Callum]

Give me diarrhea.

[Jamie]

Hippie chicks, man. It's their idea.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

You need to take echinacea. Okay.

[Brian Callum]

Somebody gave it to me, and it was on the tail end of my cold, and I was like, I'm better. And then I was like, I'm taking this off.

[Jamie]

What is the benefit? Like, what do they say echinacea does?

[Brian Callum]

Is it viral and antiviral? Anyway, the guy who came up with the idea goes, I'm still taking it. That was his response.

[Jamie]

Well, let's find out what this. What does the studies show? Ask Perplexity. What does the studies show about echinacea?

[Brian Callum]

I saw that with seed oil. I looked that up, too. Seed oils. Apparently there's no studies that say it's bad for you.

[Jamie]

Yeah, but it's bad for you, is it? Yeah, it's. It's industrial lubricant. It's all. It's not really like, just if you know all the process that's involved in. In.

[Brian Callum]

In.

[Jamie]

In making it. It's also not nearly as healthy as olive oil. And you can get olive oil just Use olive oil. Stop around.

[Brian Callum]

I do.

[Jamie]

Or use beef.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

It's not human food, man. It's processed like that. Just that alone.

[Brian Callum]

Right.

[Jamie]

Like, olive oil is super healthy for you, really good for you. And you can use that. So why do you. Why are you using that? It's cheaper. It's also. It's disgusting. Like the way they make it. Have you ever seen the way they make seed oils? What does it say? Immunity and co prevention. Many studies suggest echinacea may help support immune function and possibly reduce the number and severity of upper respiratory infections. Some trials. Some trials found a small reduction in cold risk or illness duration, while high quality reviews show little to no statistically significant benefit over placebo. That's all we need to know. We're good. We're good.

[Brian Callum]

That's it. But again, that's part of science. Right? Like you. You. You look at that, you do a study, you see what works.

[Jamie]

Right.

[Brian Callum]

And if it doesn't, it doesn't, you know? Right. But this stuff is complicated.

[Jamie]

Sure.

[Brian Callum]

You know, how you do a study, what you leave out.

[Jamie]

Also, who's funding the study, who's funding.

[Brian Callum]

The study is huge.

[Jamie]

Whether or not Fauci.

[Brian Callum]

How big was the study? Yeah. All that stuff.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Brian Callum]

And then. And then a lot of the stuff is also like. You have to have expertise in that field to even understand the research.

[Jamie]

Also, studies are much like corrupt boxing judges. It's like, what's the purpose of this? Like, what are you trying to do? You're trying to make a lot of money. If you're trying to make a lot of money, you can make a study where you can take a dosage that's preposterous and give it to a group of people and this them up.

[Brian Callum]

And then you.

[Jamie]

You have a great base of saying this is a dangerous drug.

[Brian Callum]

Right.

[Jamie]

I was watching this guy who's on Patrick bet David's show, the son. Something that I did not know. Do you know that heroin was created. It was termed as a solution to morphine addiction. Wow.

[Brian Callum]

But it is morphine.

[Jamie]

It's just slightly different. It's just like methadone. Methadone's terrible for you.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

And that's what they use to get people off of heroin.

[Brian Callum]

I remember I knew people who would go to the methadone.

[Jamie]

We'd call them the methadone. We'd. When I was playing pool at executive billiards in White Plains, New York, it was right down the street from a methadone clinic. And the methadone would get their method Heroin was originally created a supposedly non addictive substitute for morphine, intended to treat morphine addiction and serve as a cough suppressant.

[Brian Callum]

Wow.

[Jamie]

Now here's what's really crazy. Do you know that when they were inventing this stuff, one of the things that they also came up with was acetaminophen. And acetaminophen they didn't want people to take because in studies they show that it fucks rats up in their liver. Like, this is like all these crazy liberals who are not. They're taking Tylenol because RFK Jr said don't take it. So, like, fuck you. I'm taking Tylenol and I'm pregnant. Maybe it's okay to take Tylenol if you're pregnant. I don't know. But what I do know is it's the number one source. Acetaminophen is the number one source of acute liver failure in America. 500 people die in America every year from liver failure because of taking acetaminophen. So don't take it.

[Brian Callum]

Or it's, or it's. Or it's a dose thing. Right.

[Jamie]

So I know it's most certainly the.

[Brian Callum]

Woman'S pregnant and she. Her temperature goes way up.

[Jamie]

It can be bad for the baby. Right?

[Brian Callum]

So there's a, there's a, there's a dosage you take that apparently is okay. Right. So you can take a.

[Jamie]

Perhaps.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

I don't know how you would find.

[Brian Callum]

Out without I don't know anything.

[Jamie]

Having another woman with the exact same body take Tylenol and not have a problem and one to take to nothing.

[Brian Callum]

And does it thing I asked you about, remember the meat thing where I talked to this guy who, who said that?

[Jamie]

Hold on a second. What does this say, Jamie? Acetaminophen has no direct chemical or historical connection with the invention or development of heroin. Yeah, no, no, that's not what we're saying. No, they, they developed. Is bare. They developed acetaminophen as well. It wasn't that it had a connection to heroin. It was just another thing that they developed that they didn't want to release because they found that it had problems. But this is a guy on Patrick bet David not. He wasn't saying that it was developed as a substitute for heroin as. No, it's not nothing like heroin.

[Brian Callum]

Did you see what Patrick bet David said about Porter, about Katie Porter or whatever her name is?

[Jamie]

No, I didn't.

[Brian Callum]

It was so funny. He goes, I just want to shout out to Katie Porter. She's fantastic. It's Just like, just keep going, man. You just keep talking that way. And he was just. But the way he was doing it, it sounded like he was supporting her, but it was just like, just keep on going. You're telegenic. This is fantastic. You're great. He's so funny. I love that guy.

[Jamie]

He's a great guy.

[Brian Callum]

I love that dude.

[Jamie]

He's a great guy.

[Brian Callum]

I get along with him. That.

[Jamie]

That is an unfortunate situation. And now she's right now drowning in anxiety. The. The wave of the people that are attacking her and even unjustly because of the clip that we pulled up right where she was talking about people connecting groomers to just. Just regular LBGT people or LGBT people. The. Just the wave of hate that's coming her way, especially when she yelled at her staff, get out of my shot. Like, we all know that kind of person. Yeah, we all know.

[Brian Callum]

We know who you are. That's who you really are.

[Jamie]

That's who you are.

[Brian Callum]

That's the real you.

[Jamie]

We've seen people like that. We know those kind of people.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Brian Callum]

Well, you know, I. I actually, as I get older, I think how you think and what you actually hold in your mind and your heart, even if you try to keep it a secret, it comes out. It will always come out.

[Jamie]

That's why podcasts are so good.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah, man. It's like, listen, your brain is a garden. You got to de weed it. You got to keep your brain. You got to keep your mind on the good things. People are going to you over. You got to. You got to. You got to forgive them or you'll turn your own back on your future. All those little challenges. Yeah, you're going to have. You're going to have hard shit that goes on. You're going to come home, your wife is going to need you, you got kids. You can't bring that shit home. That. That is the discipline. That's being a warrior, not all this fucking other stuff. Like, I'm fucking practicing my double and single. Like, I have no idea why. I love. My son's taking Jiu Jitsu, so I like to teach him. But. But at the end of the day, the challenges are keeping your mind and your heart pure. And I. I never used to speak this way, but as I get older, that's kind of really what I believe, because it's gonna fucking. You're not getting away with it.

[Jamie]

Well, that's why you should stay off social media, because you'll have enemies all day long, and there's a lot of People that are our age, that are complete addicts, that are just. Especially the left people, for whatever reason. But I shouldn't say that. I know a lot of people on the right are addicted to it too.

[Brian Callum]

Oh, yeah.

[Jamie]

But it's just addicted to these arguments that people have constantly, every day and calling people and losers and you're just carrying around all that with you all day.

[Brian Callum]

That's exhausting.

[Jamie]

Which is why I don't do it. I mean, I could, I could go in on every person that ever wronged me or this, that and said bad things about me. Like, come on.

[Brian Callum]

I always do that. I always say, listen, I have friends. I'm getting hate. I'm like, listen, dude, if you're getting hate, you're doing something right or you're a.

[Jamie]

Maybe you should get your together. Maybe the people are right.

[Brian Callum]

You're a cunt.

[Jamie]

It's. You never know. Like, you know, there's a certain amount of criticism that you should respect. You should look at it and go. But a lot of it is straw man criticism. And the reason why people are doing is not really. They're not really criticizing you or what you stand for. They're making up up a thing. I like, pretend that you stand for that thing, and then they're attacking that.

[Brian Callum]

I get, I get checked sometimes. I'll, I, I no longer, like, I'll read a book and I'll become an expert. Like, I'll read a book, a half a book on nutrition.

[Jamie]

You'll read a headline.

[Brian Callum]

I'll read a headline, bro. And I'm. And you better sit down at my feet because I got some to teach you.

[Jamie]

And said something to Terence Howard once that I'll never forget. Really important thing said, stop teaching. Stop trying to teach people. You're not an expert.

[Brian Callum]

Wow.

[Jamie]

Yeah. And you know, in his case, it was very personal because Terence was talking about mathematics and physics. Yeah. It was really important for him because, like, you know, we know Eric very well.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

And. But there's a lot of people who think Eric's an idiot, which is hilarious.

[Brian Callum]

That's hilarious.

[Jamie]

It's funny.

[Brian Callum]

Good luck with that.

[Jamie]

And smart people. There's smart people that decided he's an idiot and a fraud. And I've seen videos where smart people are tearing him apart. And I'm like, that's interesting. Okay. That's so uncharitable and not necessary. And even if you have criticisms about the way he communicates, you got to understand that the way he communicates to him is normal.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

Right. Because he's really smart.

[Brian Callum]

He's an inherently decent, beautiful person.

[Jamie]

He's a great guy. I love that he's a great guy. He's a genuinely great guy. And he's, you know, not the kind of guy that goes out of his way to try to ruin other people. No, he's not doing that at all. And so I get that there's a. There's a currency in criticizing people. Like, you can get clickbait headlines and clickbait videos. But that all comes at a cost too, because I'm never gonna really respect you because I'm gonna think that what you're doing, when you're doing that kind of stuff is. And I get it. It's because if it's a business, you're doing it on YouTube. It's the best way to get clicks. But this, this just gross. Going out of the way to attack people, it's not smart.

[Brian Callum]

No.

[Jamie]

Because you're going to be that guy forever. And then one day you're like 50 or 60 and you've built your whole brand on being a. But also that same critical out, that.

[Brian Callum]

Same critic come backs to you. It comes, it turns around. It comes back at you always when you try to do something. Because being good at anything is very hard. Like, I got. I'm dropping my special and I gotta write a whole new. I've been writing all new. That's hard. Not repeating yourself, trying to like, shake up your paradigm. It's really hard. And you go through some days where you're like, I'm. I'm never going to write a joke again. Right.

[Jamie]

And if somebody sees you on one of those days where you're eating dick, they're like, oh, my God, he's terrible.

[Brian Callum]

Right?

[Jamie]

Okay, well, I've seen people say that about Louie. Like, a friend of mine saw Louis in the cell. He's like, oh, he sucked. I go, no, he didn't suck, dude. He's got new bits that are brand new. And if you see an hour from or a year from now, that hour will be a polished masterpiece. But it doesn't come out of the box perfect. And the only way to ever develop it is you have to have the courage to trot these ideas out and try to find where the funny is in them. And sometimes the funny isn't there and you think it is. And you go looking around, you go, all right, folks, there's no other way.

[Brian Callum]

There's no other way.

[Jamie]

You got to try as a comedian to navigate those waters.

[Brian Callum]

But, you know, I did an interview on A radio thing. And this guy who was his. He had just started doing stand up, was criticizing the quote unquote, that right wing hack comedian named Jim Brewer. And I went, I turned that interview. I was like, are you calling Jim fucking Brewer a hack? Do you know how funny that motherfucker is?

[Jamie]

You know, funny.

[Brian Callum]

You know how hard it is to be to do what that dude does? Like shut the fuck up. You've never done. You have 10 minutes of material. Shut up. That guy's a. That guy kills me. You ever see his routine about the. When his cat got. Got the. Kicked out of him by a raccoon. Oh, dude, who's your mother now? He just got this. He's so physically, so funny.

[Jamie]

Physically funny.

[Brian Callum]

Oh, my God.

[Jamie]

And he's been really funny since I met him. Yeah, he's never met him in like 91 or 92. Funny then he was great.

[Brian Callum]

Goat boy.

[Jamie]

He was phenomenal. And he's a great guy too. He's a great guy guy. And it's just like people are always trying to build themselves up by taking other people down. And it's historic. It's been gone forever. It's always the case. And it's normal. Like when you're young and you're coming up and you see people that are doing better than you, like that guy, it's normal, but it's not beneficial. It's not good for you.

[Brian Callum]

You can use it to inspire you. Yeah, that's what I do.

[Jamie]

I've done what they do. I've hated on people. I definitely did when I was younger. It's just not smart. It's not. It's not a good strategy for life.

[Brian Callum]

That didn't help you.

[Jamie]

It's, you know, you, you. Your identity gets too wrapped up in conflict and it's just like super unhealthy.

[Brian Callum]

People our age who are still doing that. Of course, comics.

[Jamie]

Mark Marin. Don't say it.

[Brian Callum]

I mean, I don't get it. You know, I'm like, I don't know.

[Jamie]

I get it. He's sad. He's sad. He wants other people to hurt. That's what it is.

[Brian Callum]

It's just not charitable.

[Jamie]

Well, it's also. He's pathologically jealous. Like, he's been path. He's like literally mentally ill. Like, do you understand Mark? When he first started, when he was just first coming up, was friends at Mitch Hedberg. And then Mitch Hedberg hit and he couldn't be friends with him anymore.

[Brian Callum]

Really?

[Jamie]

Yep. Stop being his friend. Same thing with Louis ck. Louis CK and him were tight. Louis blew up Mark, didn't he? He had to hate him. And it turned on him. Talking about. Talk about him, talk about him openly. And then he became successful. And the years where Mark was successful were the best years of Mark, because Mark was fun. Like, I've had ups and downs with Mark. I've gone through this with him like, three or four different times where we. He gets upset at me, and then we talk, and then, are we good? We're good. Like, he likes to do that. He likes to talk about you, and then you confront him, and he says, you're right. And with me, Mike, my relationship with him was really complicated because when I was an open micr, I was 21 years old, and I was just starting out, Mark gave me a compliment once that really helped me. He came up to me and he's, hey, man, you're really funny. He just keep doing what you're doing. Don't let. Don't listen to anybody else. Just keep doing what you're doing. I was like, wow, thank you.

[Brian Callum]

That's his best side. That's the good side.

[Jamie]

And he's not all bad. And he was a young guy back then, right? So he was just being cool. And then over time, obviously, I became more famous than him and more successful than him, and he does not like that. He fucking hates that. And the only time we were cool was him. Mark was number one. So Mark, the podcast took off. And you got to realize it took off when he was deep into his 40s, right? And it was the number one podcast in the country. And he was on Rolling Stone magazine, and, you know, he had his own show on ifc, the Marin Show. And he was great. He was cool to hang with. He was fun because he didn't have to compare himself to anybody anymore because he was a success. Like, he could look at his own success. He was doing a television show. He had his podcast. Everything was great, and we were cool. Like, we were friends. Like, I'd see him, I'd give him a hug. I said, what's going on? We would talk. We're like. We're friendly at the store. We never hung out off, you know, off site, but we were friendly. Like, we had pushed all the beef aside and even did my podcast. We had a great time. And then I started getting more successful, and then my podcast passed his. Then my podcast became number one, and then the Spotify deal. And that's when he started talking shit about me. So he started talking shit about me long before all this Trump stuff. This Trump stuff is just the most recent iteration of this bizarre thing that he does with people. And the first thing was he had decided that I was an asshole, like just because the podcast took off. But it was, it was not a big deal. It was like, I'd heard people say that he was saying things, but then after the Spotify deal, the Spotify deal was a real problem. And that's when he started coming after me and it was about vaccines, like, so he was talking about me on stage about vaccines. It's like, by the way, everything I said was correct. The people that I had on my podcast were like, Robert Malone, who got criticized. He has nine patents in the creation of MRNA technology.

[Brian Callum]

He's a vaccinologist, he's a immunologist.

[Jamie]

He took the vaccine himself and had a horrible adverse event, which is when he started becoming critical of it. And then he started doing the science and looking at to the papers and the research and he was trying to sound the alarm. He was right. He was right. All these. Dr. Pierre Corey. He was right. Peter McCullough is the most published doctor in human history in his particular field of expertise, which is.

[Brian Callum]

Which is immunology.

[Jamie]

It's kidney disease. I don't exactly. But he's a scientist very well in a credit science, scientists. So these are the people that I had on that were talking about this stuff. It had nothing to do with that that Marin was upset at. It had to do with jealousy.

[Brian Callum]

I think though it's another thing. I think some people have a very traumatic experience when they're younger. It could be high school. And you represent an avatar of that experience. So we just spent, I don't know, the first fucking third of this podcast was about fighting, working out and all that stuff. There's a physicality there. You, you are a physical guy. You're physically imposing. You, you know, you can choke somebody unconscious, punch them in the face, blah, blah, blah. That meathead Persona, that kind of like forward tilt, that yang energy, that very hyper male energy. Some people have a very bad experience with that kind of energy when they're young. They might be.

[Jamie]

I understand, but you have to judge people.

[Brian Callum]

Of course.

[Jamie]

You can't strawman people and pretend that they're.

[Brian Callum]

Of course you do.

[Jamie]

He likes to pretend that I'm like a mean job.

[Brian Callum]

But that's what I'm saying is that you gotta like, as an adult, after a while you have to come to terms with whatever emotional reaction you have to whatever this avatar is that you've put all this Stuff on which we all do. I think you've got to take your tell after a while, you got to go, hey, hey. This is where I got to let go of all that stuff. And I got to take the person at face value.

[Jamie]

Yeah, but this is a. You're talking about introspection. He doesn't have that. That's not him. He does when confidence confronted and he'll. He'll apologize. Like, that's his whole thing. Are we good? We good? And then you'd hug it out with people. He also lies. Like, one of the things he lied about. He did a podcast with Howie Mandel, and Howie Mandel asked him if he had problems with comedians. Like, no, I don't have any problems with any comedians. I've never had any problems. Comedians. Like, what are you talking about? He's had a problem with every single comedian that's more successful than him. Bill Burr, Louis ck, Dave Chappelle, me, Tony Hinchcliffe, everybody that passes him. All of a sudden he. And he talks about them on stage. And the Theo thing really drove me nuts because that sent Theo into a real spiral.

[Brian Callum]

Did it?

[Jamie]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, Theo went into a spiral, and that was a big part of him getting attacked. Was Marin talking about him on a special saying that he'd have Hitler on his podcast? Well, why is he saying that? Does he think that's true? Does he think it's. Do you think that Theo has anybody on his fucking show, including Bernie Sanders?

[Brian Callum]

He's learning. He's talked to learn.

[Jamie]

He'll talk to people and you know, he will talk to anybody on his podcast. That's not what the thing is. The thing is that Marin's podcast, which was number one, isn't even in the top 100 anymore. I don't even think it's in the top 200. It went away and it went away not because he did anything. He didn't get arrested. There was no scandal. People just stop being interested in it. And I think that hurts the most.

[Brian Callum]

And why did they stop being interested?

[Jamie]

It's not good. It appears a part of it. Like, the conversations that he has are fine, but the beginning of the podcast is these like, self indulgent rants about life and him doing things. And there's a thread dedicated on like Reddit where people fast forward to the time. Like, they give you the time but stamp of when he's done ranting. So you could just get to the interview because nobody wants to hear it. Like, it's like it's an inside joke. But it just. That's the reality is it's like Theo passed him, like, rocketed past him, and now he has, like, the number two or number three podcast in the world.

[Brian Callum]

Sometimes there's a thing that people do when you're older where you say, that person passed me, and then you criticize the culture that got them past it.

[Jamie]

Right. Well, the thing is m. The things that. Marin never developed an audience for his comedy, and he always felt like he deserved it, and that's what drove him the most nuts. He always felt like he deserved it, but it's like, you deserve what you get. You know what? He has a record for one of those ticket things. What? It's Ticketmaster. Whatever. One number one for selling single seats.

[Brian Callum]

That's interesting. Oh, that's really interesting.

[Jamie]

People with no friends.

[Brian Callum]

That's interesting.

[Jamie]

Yeah. Really sad people. Sad people that identify the way he behaves in interactions.

[Brian Callum]

I always look at it this way. Like, I, you know, somebody. We were doing this thing, and Ryan Reynolds. People talking about how he gets paid or he gets criticized. And I was like, look, man, I don't know about that. I just know that I tried really, really hard to be Ryan Reynolds. I did. I tried my hardest artist. I was an acting class. I went on every audition I got. I did okay. I was on a couple sitcoms and some movies and stuff, but for whatever reason, I didn't. I'm not Ryan Reynolds. You know why? I'm just, in probably in some ways, hate to say it, I think I'm really good at comedy, but maybe I'm just not as good or maybe just for whatever reason, I didn't do it. Maybe he was smarter in this other area, but either way.

[Jamie]

Well, the reality is, man, there can only be, like, a couple of runs.

[Brian Callum]

That's fine, but I'm not gonna hate on the guy because of it.

[Jamie]

Thousands and thousands and thousands of people that are trying.

[Brian Callum]

I did. I tried hard, man.

[Jamie]

But see, that's the difference between that and comedy. See, comedy is much more of America. Much more of America.

[Brian Callum]

Very much.

[Jamie]

If you're funny, you can get an audience. And there's. There's Jim Brewer's audience, and then there's Nate Bargazi's audience, and there's Kevin Hart's audience. And there. Everyone can. You can get an audience. Like, you just have to put your work out there, and people resonate with your work. And you might not like these guys. You might say, this guy sucks, or that guy sucks, and I like this guy. No, no, no. It's Fine. You're allowed to have personal taste, just like this personal taste in music that I don't like. But the proof is in the pudding. Do people come to see you? Do you put asses in seats they enjoy the time? Or is it an angry bomb where you're on stage ranting about other comedians? Well, that's merit. And he does that all the time. Tim Dillon was just saying he was doing that in LA the other day, just ranting about the comedians that are at the Riyadh Comedy Festival, which is all, you know, like, legitimate area of criticism if you can make it funny. Like, you know, you're working for the Saudi government and they've definitely done some stuff that's fucking horrible. But the. The root of it all is not real. It's not that he cares so much that he wants everyone to do the right thing. That's not it. It's. He's upset that all these people are getting attention. He's upset that all these. It's very childish and. But he'll make it look like, you know, he's the righteous side, the left, the progressives. He's the voice now and he's gonna fucking, you know, we got work to do. We gotta get these fascists out. No, it's. It's. But it's about him getting more attention. That's what it ultimately is all about. And that's unfortunate. And I'm not mad at him. And if I saw him and I talked to him, we were cool, I'd give him a hug.

[Brian Callum]

You're just. But he wants to be just honest.

[Jamie]

Right? But he wants to pretend that everybody else is bad and mean. And this is. This is like, the reason why they have. They're successful or that they're hacks or that the culture's corrupt, some dumb shit like, you know, you stop making fun of trans people. They can't get health care. That's one of the things he said, like, what are you talking about? They can't get health care. Health care is care that makes you healthy. The law that got passed was stopping chemical castration drugs and surgery for underage children that are confused.

[Brian Callum]

And you know, how many kids, by the way, these.

[Jamie]

These things that they call like hormone hormones, puberty blockers. But hold on, hormone blockers, that's not what they originally were used for. We know that, like, medicine can be used off label, right? And the idea of that initially was there was only like, you know, 100 different kinds of medicine, and you could figure out what would work. And you could prescribe it for different things. And off label uses. The stuff that they're using, what they're calling puberty blockers is the same drugs that they used to give to sex offenders for chemical castration. It's the same drugs. It's chemical castration drugs. And you're giving it to children. And then there's this narrative that it can be reversible. No, it's not. No. You go through, you're going to have a micro penis for the rest of your life. You're going to have, have up vocal cords, your whole body is bone density sucks, strokes, there's a lot of like weird side effects.

[Brian Callum]

It's so evil to me.

[Jamie]

Right? So his straw man is transgender people. Can't you, you should stop talking about a man. They can't get medical care, they can't get health care. You happy? Like, yeah. That has never been the case.

[Brian Callum]

Saying that. That's what you're saying that the problem.

[Jamie]

Is he's trying to get you to limit the amount of things that you're talking about now that people want to hear.

[Brian Callum]

Right.

[Jamie]

That's really what he's doing. It's like a really selfish, self oriented thing. It's not righteous. That's what's the crazy thing about it. And people are going to find that out, man. They're going to dig into you. They're going to listen to the things you say and what the way you behave and the things you've talked about saying. You know, like that the whole reason why everybody voted for Trump is because they wanted to say the word retard. That's a straw man. Like it was a really funny bit. I get it, okay. It's not that good a bit, but it's a straw man. That's not true. What everybody wanted was they realized there was a crazy thing happening where the border was wide open, right. And 20 million people got in in four years that weren't supposed to be here. Right, but does that mean that you support everything that they're doing now or they're kicking people out? No, no, this. Storming into the fucking Home Depot and arresting people. No, no, that's not cool either. The military in the street I think is a dangerous precedent. But also why are you allowing people to just riot on the streets and burn down buildings? Yeah.

[Brian Callum]

Why do you have to lock up toothpaste in Washington D.C. toothpaste. You gotta lock it up.

[Jamie]

San Francisco, is that good? Oh, it's, look, there's, there's, there's a balance to be had here. And there's a conversation to be had. But it's not in straw man arguments where you're saying that the only reason why people want. Is they wanted to say this. These comedians are just voting for fascism.

[Brian Callum]

No, I want. This is why with my podcast, like, I was. I got to a point where I was having. I was interviewing people. Right. It was great. But the problem is I. I don't. After a while, for me, like, there are too many people like you who do it really well. I would love. And I don't know if I'll be. I think I talked to you about this just to get people on two different sides to have a discussion. Just to find out, like, just to kind of get to a. So in other words, can we just try to approach this as solving a problem?

[Jamie]

We don't have to be the right two people.

[Brian Callum]

It's hard to get them, though.

[Jamie]

But that's hard to get them. But it also has to be two people that are actually just trying to state their points. You know, it's a really good example that recently, Coleman Hughes had. He's great. Had Dave Smith on his podcast. Very good conversation. Super balanced, intelligent, calm level. Especially from Coleman. Coleman's so good.

[Brian Callum]

He's a killer.

[Jamie]

He's so good. And it was, you know, one of the rare times where I think Dave was kind of stumped in certain situations. It's great.

[Brian Callum]

Dave probably learned a lot. That's, you know, it's great.

[Jamie]

Yeah. I mean, he had a very interesting point about the Wesley Clark thing. You see that I did.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

But like, he never saw the memo. He was told what was in the memo. And he's like, you understand that if you're running a history book, that wouldn't even be. You couldn't even put that in the book. Which is accurate.

[Brian Callum]

It's absolutely accurate.

[Jamie]

It's accurate. It doesn't mean that they didn't actually do do that, though. And it seems like that's. That is exactly what happened, which is, like, kind of convenient.

[Brian Callum]

Well, he addressed that, too. But I know what you're saying. It's like, no, again.

[Jamie]

But it's also like a brilliant debate.

[Brian Callum]

Yes.

[Jamie]

And never. Never.

[Brian Callum]

And I learned. You learned things from that.

[Jamie]

You're not going to see Mark Marin in one of those.

[Brian Callum]

And that's the bummer. It's like if you. If you have these ideas you're standing on and you're vocal with them, right. Then you should be willing to put them on the table and see how they war against another idea.

[Jamie]

And you also should entertain the other person's perspective. The problem is, like Dave has been saying it one way for the longest time. And when Coleman said that, I think the correct response is. That is true. Yeah, you got a really good point.

[Brian Callum]

You won. You're right.

[Jamie]

However, no, you didn't really win because they did do exactly what was in that memo. I mean, they did overthrow every single country except for Iran.

[Brian Callum]

No, no, because he said, in fact, we did it with a number of other regimes. But there were, I think, three or four countries in that memo that they. We haven't done that with.

[Jamie]

Right. But they've been going after those specifically. And those, a lot of them did get toppled.

[Brian Callum]

This was Rumsfeld.

[Jamie]

But it's also. Yeah, and it is interesting that that is a strategy that the United States employs in that we do topple regimes and that we, you know, we do, we have in the past, we have been involved in that. And to deny that, I think is kind of crazy.

[Brian Callum]

Right.

[Jamie]

And we also really do a good job of taking advantage of. Of opportunities. And when 9, 11 happened, that's when they passed through the Patriot Act. Like that's when they, they started taking.

[Brian Callum]

The birth of the surveillance state, sir.

[Jamie]

Exactly.

[Brian Callum]

They know, they know everything about you. I talk about this in specialists. Like they know a woman's pregnant based on her migratory shopping patterns here. Okay? So they can, based on your migratory shopping pattern, they can pick up that you're. That you are with child and you don't. Before she knows it. Before she knows it.

[Jamie]

That's crazy.

[Brian Callum]

Okay? That's what's crazy. They have cameras with full gate recognition.

[Jamie]

So the way you gate changes how.

[Brian Callum]

You walk is in the cloud there. That is a signature for you. Okay. Forget your biometrics. Cover your face all you want. They have cameras that can pick up how you walk. The mathematics of how you walk is just like your fingerprint. They also have a laser that can shoot in your heart, into your body and pick up your heart signature, sir. So good luck hiding from the state. It's here and that's it. Your privacy is.

[Jamie]

Yeah. One of the things that they were saying when it came to the abortion debate that I thought was very interesting that I hadn't considered is that they were, they were talking about prosecuting women that left a state where abortion was illegal and went to a state where it was legal and then returned. And that they were going to do this based on apps. So women have apps where they track their ovulation and that they could get the Data from these apps, I think. And then it's outrageous.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

And it's also, that's where it gets really creepy because it's a lot of Christian fundamentalists. Well, it actually becomes a religion.

[Brian Callum]

It actually hinges on murder. Right. So, so if you, if somebody came across state lines and murdered somebody, you could do that. That's, that's absolutely legitimate. When you define abortion as murder. Okay, then, then that is, there is a, there are strong legal grounds to establish that precedent.

[Jamie]

Sure. But you're also not supposed to be prosecuting, say if you're in Texas, you're not supposed to be prosecuting someone for the actions they did in Oklahoma.

[Brian Callum]

Unless it's murder. That's a federal crime.

[Jamie]

Okay, so they, if they approach it that way.

[Brian Callum]

Yes.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Brian Callum]

So you, you, you, you certainly were Republicans, but. And so there are statutory laws, but they do not supersede in many cases, federal law. If it's something like murder, that's a capital crime.

[Jamie]

The problem is you're getting, giving men the ability to track women's behavior in a way that I think it's hugely problematic. Very fucking creepy. Also, when there's a significant portion of this country that believes women should have access to abortions and for you to say no and it's their body that gets slippery.

[Brian Callum]

This is where we get into.

[Jamie]

It gets real slippery. And that gets into the more of a libertarian area, you know where. I think that's probably where I land a lot of the time.

[Brian Callum]

Now you're sounding like a leftist slash libertarian. It's so weird, right?

[Jamie]

When it comes to live and let live and accepting people for whatever it is, whether they're gay or whether from another country, like I'm open to everybody. I want you to just be cool. Be nice and be cool and try to do a good thing with your life and enjoy yourself and not harm others.

[Brian Callum]

When you're running, when you, when you're. So when you have policy. The problem is we get into the weeds. Technology creates problems that are major because typically I think with Roe v. Wade, the abortion was legal until the fetus was viable on its own. Okay. So once the fetus was, if it could be, the cutoff thing was without the mother. If it needs the mother, then it's still.

[Jamie]

Part of the month.

[Brian Callum]

Now if the baby's eight months. No, but when, what happens when technology can keep a six week fetus alive and bring it to term? Now you're dealing with, now you can argue the case right now, but it will be. Technology is good. So now the Problem becomes, now what are you doing? Now we have to redefine. So the people who believe in abortion or a woman's right to choose have to redefine what it is. And the only way to get around that is to say that, that a woman can make that choice until the baby's born. And that's where you get. Politicians say you believe that babies should be killed up until they're about. Up until the woman's crowning and we get into this whole thing and then, you know.

[Jamie]

Yeah. Well, it also is a uniquely human issue in that it does get blurry. Like as much as I say I am 100%, I think a woman, it's her choice, especially at early stages. You know, if someone is pregnant for four weeks, that's your choice. I don't think anybody should be stepping in. However, everybody with any kind of a heart or a. Everybody loves babies. When you get to like eight months or seven months, you're like, like, whoa, that is a full on baby inside of you, which is cr. And then when you see what they do, when they do have late term abortions, you could see the body parts. Like, I don't know if you've ever seen it. Unfortunately, I can't watch that. I've watched some of those videos and then you've also seen people who were working for Planned Parenthood who are callously talking about sorting through these parts.

[Brian Callum]

I guess you have to be that way, don't you? I mean, there's no other way to.

[Jamie]

Do it, I guess. But there's some of those Project Veritas type videos where, you know, people are behind the scenes, man, it's so dark. But they don't think there's anything wrong because they think that abortion should be legal and abortion is a leftist position and a woman should have a right to choose. So in their mind, this is what's happening. And like here's a leg and here's a heart and here's a head.

[Brian Callum]

This is where ideology. You have to be. Be super inflexible. Right. You got to be like, well, this is what I believe, no matter what.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Brian Callum]

And I can't live that way.

[Jamie]

No, that you can't be if you're not grossed out by a little baby hand that just got sucked out of a woman's vagina with a vacuum cleaner. That's kind of crazy.

[Brian Callum]

Bob Geldoff said something that was so interesting. You remember Bob Geldoff?

[Jamie]

Sure, yeah. We are the World.

[Brian Callum]

And he was talking about Gaza. Right. And you can get Into a really. You can get into a debate about Gaza. I don't. I leave that alone because I'm not going to get into that. Because you can talk about Israel, turn it into the surface of the moon. There's plenty of criticism in that direction. You can talk about what they did in October 7th and all that stuff. But he said something wild. He said, look, there are a lot of kids who are starving or at least malnourished or really hungry, whatever it might be. And he said something. He asked a question I thought was great. Get into the debate. He said, but, hey, who are we as human beings, as people? Who are we? Like, there's got to be something we can do. There's got to be something we can do, whether it's Israel, whether it's Palestinians, whatever, To. To at least get that kid fed, at least to stop that kind of stuff. And that's it. That I think sometimes there's a question to ask. You got to throw all your ideology out the window. You got to throw all your politics out the window and go, hold on. This is called the stop everything button. I'm going to push it right now. I'm just going to stop everything. And we got to stop everything. Make sure those kids are fed.

[Jamie]

Fuck off. Unless your ideology has gotten so dark that you think of those kids as an other. You don't think of those kids as kids. Those kids are orcs.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah, that's what the Vedanta always says, that seeing nothing, no other, is the way ultimately realizing that you and that person. Back to what you said, you'd be that person too, under those circumstances.

[Jamie]

Then there's the cold, hard reality of environment and culture.

[Brian Callum]

Right.

[Jamie]

If. If you grow up in this radical.

[Brian Callum]

There are good ideas, bad ideas. Let's not get it twisted. It doesn't mean you're an intellectual and say everything is everything. Okay, we're not being relativist here.

[Jamie]

What I'm saying is if you live in a part of the world that's. You're gonna be. That's right, you're gonna be.

[Brian Callum]

Which is. Then we have to go, hold on. There is a. There is a better way and there is a b. There's a worse way. When you lose that side of that, like this, there is is a better way. There's good, there's evil, there's better, there's worse. And that takes some time to understand the meaningful difference.

[Jamie]

Have you ever talked to Evan Hafer about his time in Afghanistan?

[Brian Callum]

Yes.

[Jamie]

Some of the things that he told me, the things that he saw and the things that he like personally witnessed.

[Brian Callum]

Yes.

[Jamie]

He's like, you really get this feeling like he just, you just can't. Yeah, can't. You can't deal with this. Like. And this is my thought on that. It's like I wonder if that's what life was like all over the world, thousand thousands and thousands of years ago. I wonder if like kind, nice people were like an aberration and if most of the war like we're seeing in places like Afghanistan, these warlord driven mountain communities of people that are like, I wonder if that's like how most of human history was.

[Brian Callum]

I believe it was.

[Jamie]

I believe it was.

[Brian Callum]

You had, you had that. The. Daryl Cooper said the greatest thing about the Middle east conflict. He said it's a part of the world where people have to give up who they could be for who they have to be. And that's a beautiful way to put it because. Because that is, that is, that is what we are. So man, as Americans, especially a certain kind of American, we're so lucky because I get to be who. I get to try to be who I want to be. I don't have to settle for who I have to be. I don't have to watch my kids go hungry and do some bad shit because my kids couldn't get water. I'm going to be slitting some throats, boats. But I never had to face that stuff. I never had to embrace the angels of my darker nature just to survive.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Brian Callum]

And it's a luxury, man.

[Jamie]

And you also never had to like, those people never get to stray from that path because they're, they're in that path from the time they're a child. And if they make it to be 30 and they're living like that, it's a miracle.

[Brian Callum]

If you lose an election in a lot of countries, you die. You don't live to another see another day. How about Mexico?

[Jamie]

We were talking about the amount of assassinations in Mexico I had es called Iran on and he explained it to it. He was like, they're all working for the cartel. That's what it is. It's cartel on cartel violence.

[Brian Callum]

That is so crazy.

[Jamie]

And it's like, why is that? Because drugs are illegal and so only the outlaws sell the drugs and we are the ones who buy it. And so we prop up this illegal market that's right next door.

[Brian Callum]

We're the biggest market in the world for that stuff.

[Jamie]

I know. And it's just, it's. That's another human problem. Like so what do you do. Do you make everything legal? And then you're gonna have drug addiction and. And you're gonna have all sorts of problems and people are gonna overdose that probably wouldn't. But is that better than, like, allowing people to overdose accidentally on fentanyl because they just wanted a bump of coke?

[Brian Callum]

You can stack bodies. That's one way to do it. You can actually, like he was saying, treat it like an insurgency and stack bodies like we did with isis. We solved that ISIS problem. Nobody ever talks about that.

[Jamie]

We solved that ISIS problem during the Trump administration.

[Brian Callum]

Six fucking months.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Brian Callum]

Trump said, I'll tell you what, you guys, let's take the gloves off and just go to work. And we stacked bodies, and that kind of went away in six months. It is. If you want to get really ugly, there's one aspect of it you can do that, and I believe that's possible. And the reason I believe it's possible for some countries, like the United States is because we've done it, and that'd be pretty ugly. Or the other thing is to maybe look into legalizing or taking the profit out of that kind of behavior. That's the second thing. The third thing you could do. You could do is you could actually go to the cartels, which is controversial, but I know it was on the table, and cut a deal, which is, tell you what, guys, tell us where all the fentanyl is. All the fentanyl factories in this country and in Mexico. No fentanyl, no human trafficking, but you can sell, let's say, marijuana and cocaine. How's that sound?

[Jamie]

I heard about that, too.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

Now, I'd heard that involved, like, a financial exchange.

[Brian Callum]

Sure. And. Yes, that's right. And also pay us some reparations. So here's, I don't know, $5 billion today. We'll give you $5 billion in about.

[Jamie]

Five years, which is crazy.

[Brian Callum]

Listen, listen, it's a deal, right? These are business people.

[Jamie]

But do you really think that they would honor that deal? But that then essentially, you're opening up the door to. Well, they're just a pharmacy now. They're a pharmacy for illegal drugs that we can't stop from coming in. So at one point in time, should we just accept the fact that people want to buy drugs and sell drugs? Because, look, if cocaine was pure, how many people would be just doing a bump every now and then on a Saturday night?

[Brian Callum]

You can't sustain it if you want to do blow. Nobody did a bunch of blow. Nobody had a lot of problems.

[Jamie]

But.

[Brian Callum]

But here's the thing it was. Got better than the problem.

[Jamie]

That's a bunch of blow. Some people don't do a bunch of blow, but they'll occasionally do blow, bro.

[Brian Callum]

A little.

[Jamie]

But no, no, no, that's not what I'm saying. I mean, some people can just, just party on the weekend.

[Brian Callum]

Okay?

[Jamie]

Right. We don't think that's the case because we think everyone's a crackhead. Right. Everyone just loses their whole life. Like, we don't even know because it's illegal. Right, Right. We don't know how. Like, this Dr. Carl Hart's position, you know, Dr. Carl.

[Brian Callum]

In other words, people can actually use drugs recreationally and be fine.

[Jamie]

That's him.

[Brian Callum]

And he's individual responsibility. They're adults.

[Jamie]

Colombia. Yeah. And he's like, the problem is this propaganda about what drugs are.

[Brian Callum]

He's the heroin guy.

[Jamie]

Yeah. He tries heroin. He don't do it that way.

[Brian Callum]

Sorry, dude, I'm not cool.

[Jamie]

You can't say he's the heroin guy.

[Brian Callum]

Hey.

[Jamie]

But he's brilliant and he's a very interesting guy. When he talks about it, you're like, you're getting the perspective of a very educated person who was a complete, clean, sober person until he became a clinical researcher. And then as he's researching these drugs and doing, like, actual scholarly work, he realizes, like, oh, they don't. This is not real at all. All this propaganda is nonsense. Like the heroin addiction thing, he's like, it's like the flu. It's like you just, you feel like for a couple days, then you get over and you're fine. It's like, it's not.

[Brian Callum]

Well, he's, I mean, you're right that most, most people use drugs recreationally and that doesn't ruin their life. So again, I, I, I subscribe to that idea. Like, let, let people do. They're going to do it anyway. They're gonna smoke weed, they're gonna do blow, they're gonna do that shit.

[Jamie]

But it was. Would it. This is my position, I think. Yes. But if they did make it legal, where you could go to CVS and buy heroin or go to CVS and buy cocaine, you're gonna get a lot more people that buy it and try it because it's now legal, you know, so you get a lot more drug use initially, maybe in the short term. Yeah, because our culture is up. Our culture is, like, designed to accept legal things that are very detrimental, like alcohol, which is a hugely dead. One of the worst ones.

[Brian Callum]

Bigger than cocaine.

[Jamie]

Yeah. Well, that's all. That's one of the things that Hunter Biden said. You ever hear Hunter riding talk about crack?

[Brian Callum]

No.

[Jamie]

Makes you want to try crack. It's amazing. He did this interview with. What is that guy's name? Andrew Callahan. Andrew Callahan. And he did this whole thing where he described how amazing crack is. I swear to God, it makes you want to try crack. Yeah, but you know, he asked him, you think crack is safer than alcohol? He's like, yeah, probably. Yeah, it's probably safer. And it probably is.

[Brian Callum]

Well, first of all, crack is devastating quickly. Like, you'll wake up in three years and have no house and be on the street. Alcohol. You can be an alcoholic for 40 years before you realize, holy fuck, I got nothing going on.

[Jamie]

Yeah, that's true.

[Brian Callum]

Right. So again, I mean, I think that the idea is you can legalize it, there's a lot of money enforcement and you know, or you can stack bodies.

[Jamie]

Well, in the back of the day, people used to snort cocaine and if you took to free basing, you had a real problem. Like that was Richard Pryor. Richard Pryor was fine until he started Freebase, sure.

[Brian Callum]

But most of us are gonna go.

[Jamie]

But that's crack, right? Freebasing his crack.

[Brian Callum]

But most of us would like, Most of us are busy, right? Like you're gonna have people that are gonna their lives up just like they do with alcohol and everything else and cocaine and crack. But most of us, even if it's. Exactly. But if it's around, will navigate it exactly how we're going to navigate social.

[Jamie]

Media, exactly how we navigate alcohol.

[Brian Callum]

Right? You're start, you're going to start to see, people are going to start to realize they're being gamed by bots. By the most extreme examples, your algorithm is lying to you. So pretty soon what happens, you say things like, I'm not going to fucking. I'm not. I'm going to get off social media.

[Jamie]

It takes like 10 years before they figure that out though, right?

[Brian Callum]

Okay, but it takes a while and then we'll have another problem. But I, I just think every time you try to fucking nanny state or just make the world. Yeah, make the world. Fix the world with. With force.

[Jamie]

Right? And better.

[Brian Callum]

It's kind of like squeezing a balloon. The gas is the, the air is just going to go on another part of the balloon. As I get older, I'm like, I don't know, man. There might be a much easier way to do this.

[Jamie]

Yeah, well, personal responsibility is huge. But also counseling, like, if you're going to allow drugs, you do it have to be a whole support system set up to help people with addiction. But then also they should bring in ibogaine. I mean, what they're doing with ibogaine in Texas with veterans and with people that are drug addicts, they've had tremendous results. It stops your addiction dead in its tracks. With one session, 80% of the people never, never return. And with two sessions, 90 plus percent of the people never return to alcohol. To anything. To heroin, alcohol, cigarettes, gambling, whatever it is holy, whatever you're hooked on.

[Brian Callum]

Doesn't Ozempic work for that too?

[Jamie]

Oh, zempic seems to have some sort of an effect on that as well. Yeah, yeah. As some sort of craving part of your brain addictions. Yeah, because it's like it stops appetite. So I wonder if it stops like an appetite for like wild too. Like.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah, Come on. Seven. Yeah.

[Jamie]

Like people that are gambling addicts. Yeah.

[Brian Callum]

Apparently it helps, I think that the peptides and all that technology is going to make it so that we can figure out a way to. To control a lot of that.

[Jamie]

I think so too. Yeah, I think they'll.

[Brian Callum]

But they have very good drugs for alcohol. Very good drugs. You can take a drug for alcohol. The problem is, it's not the alcohol. The problem is when you take away somebody's addiction like alcohol, then they still.

[Jamie]

Have an edge for something.

[Brian Callum]

But no, but it's also like your whole. All the fun of your life. Do you know that when you get up, when people get gastric bypass and, and they, they stop eating, suicides go up for them because eating was how they dealt with all their problems. Like so you're t. You know, of course again, now you're, you're taking away the addiction, but you, you're not getting to the source because you got to be able to replace that.

[Jamie]

You got to turn them into triathlete like that old lady.

[Brian Callum]

Which is why you got to go to church. I'm a man of God. I go to church now. Do you?

[Jamie]

Yeah, I've gone to church many times.

[Brian Callum]

I like it. I gotta. I go to Red Rocks.

[Jamie]

Don't tell people where you go.

[Brian Callum]

Oh, sorry.

[Jamie]

They're gonna come see you.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah, hang out. I'm not that famous.

[Jamie]

Sit right behind you. And maybe you stare at your Bible, see if you're on the right page.

[Brian Callum]

This is what, this is my fame. People go, you know Joe Rogan, can you get this thing to him? I got a deal.

[Jamie]

Yeah, I want to sell shoelaces.

[Brian Callum]

I don't even do. I don't. I love that sometimes People just come up with, like, today, great idea. Like, you know, it's a good thing. And you were like, I'm just not interested.

[Jamie]

Yeah.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

I don't want to be in business with anybody. No, it's not fun. I've tried it. Yeah, it's not a good time.

[Brian Callum]

I do have. I do have a business proposal. Yeah, I have an idea.

[Jamie]

I'm sure you do.

[Brian Callum]

I have one idea.

[Jamie]

I'm busy.

[Brian Callum]

I brought you with. I brought. I brought two ideas to you.

[Jamie]

Yeah, they all suck.

[Brian Callum]

Well, they didn't. They're good.

[Jamie]

Tell everybody your special Brian Callum special. There it is. Special. False gods.

[Brian Callum]

False Gods. The mothership. I'm very proud of it. I think it's going to be great.

[Jamie]

Who shot it for you?

[Brian Callum]

Dana. Who's Sam Tripley's lady?

[Jamie]

Oh, nice.

[Brian Callum]

I love Dana so much. And she's. That's the second thing she did. She did, man. Tears. And this is. I'm dropping this tomorrow.

[Jamie]

Beautiful.

[Brian Callum]

And this will air tomorrow.

[Jamie]

It'll air. Well, it's today, so everybody's listening. Oh, it's today.

[Brian Callum]

All right.

[Jamie]

If you're listening, it'll be tomorrow, but it'll. October 15th.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

Exclusively on YouTube.

[Brian Callum]

That's it. Now I'm back to square one. I'm gonna shoot my next one at the mothership. I'll see you tonight. Night. But are you gonna be.

[Jamie]

Yeah, I'll be there tonight.

[Brian Callum]

I'll be there, too.

[Jamie]

Let's go.

[Brian Callum]

Thank you for the time.

[Jamie]

My pleasure, my brother. Always good to hang out.

[Brian Callum]

Oh, hey. And come see every whenever other Wednesday at Brian Redman's club, Sunset Strip. We do acting off. Do you know about my show?

[Jamie]

Oh, no. What's that?

[Brian Callum]

Oh, dude, I take. I take all the. All the comics in Austin and we see who the best actor is. So you've got to like, do things like die in slow motion. Who does that the best? Or do redo the scene from the Notebook as Miss Piggy and Donald Trump is fucking hilarious. Peyton Ruddy is a fucking killer in it.

[Jamie]

Dan Marg, that's a great idea, dude. That's a great idea.

[Brian Callum]

So amazing. And we haven't promoted it, but I'm starting to promote it now because we're gamifying it. We have teams and see who can do the best, like, you know, interpretation. We have. We have up close acting, so we have a camera on your face.

[Jamie]

This is another thing that pisses me off about all these comics talking shit about the Austin scene. There's so many things going on here. This Idea. So many clubs, people have like made this again, this straw man. Like, you have to have an N word joke and you have to have a trans joke. Like, that club is so diverse.

[Brian Callum]

Incredibly diverse.

[Jamie]

But naturally. Yes. With no effort. It's all just funny.

[Brian Callum]

Who's the funniest?

[Jamie]

People are funny in all shapes and sizes, from all walks of life. Whatever struggle you've had, that manifests itself in humor.

[Brian Callum]

That's right.

[Jamie]

Exists. There's tons of people in that club that are gay. Most of the handicapped. Most of the comedians, by the way, are liberal.

[Brian Callum]

Yes.

[Jamie]

So that throws that out the window, this whole idea that it's some right wing comedy club. Like, stop it. Most of the people there are liberal. Most of them.

[Brian Callum]

Correct.

[Jamie]

But it's just this walled garden thing when people are on the outside and they're like, there wasn't. There hasn't been a scene here before.

[Brian Callum]

Right.

[Jamie]

And then you have the scrubs that were here. Like, they ruined the comedy scene. Like, you guys had nothing. Shut up. You shut.

[Brian Callum]

Shut up.

[Jamie]

Stupid lazy. Holy hole. You had nothing. There was. There was. You didn't even have a comedy club. When I moved here, Cap City was closed. You know how I know? Because I was gonna buy it.

[Brian Callum]

Right.

[Jamie]

I was looking. I went to look at the place where Cap City used to be and I was gonna purchase it.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

That's how I know. It was under good club. Now it's the new one.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah, that's a different one.

[Jamie]

Yeah, the old one was great too.

[Brian Callum]

Right.

[Jamie]

Which is like an event center now. But yeah, the new one is great.

[Brian Callum]

A bunch of comedy here. So there are a lot of other clubs that are going that are really fun. Creek in a cave.

[Jamie]

Because we made it so that, first of all, you've got a club that has two days of open mic nights and you've got a real guy in Adam Egan, who's a real talent coordinator that really helps the development of comedians. And he does it really, like consciously.

[Brian Callum]

Takes it very seriously.

[Jamie]

Takes it very seriously. And he's like, he really loves comedy and he really wants to help people and he gives great advice.

[Brian Callum]

And he's. Adam actually watches, like, he sits in the audience and watches this job very seriously.

[Jamie]

Yeah, I mean, that's why I brought him in. I mean, he and I were the founders of the mothership. I mean, it was like we did it together. I wouldn't have done it without him. Yeah, I wouldn't have done it without him. And without Carrie and a lot of the people that came from the store and this is a place that we're. It's new. And so if you're on the outside and you're not in, you try to find some criticism that's. Look, criticism is fine if you're telling the truth, but there's a bunch of people that are making things up because they're trying to attack something that they can't be a part of.

[Brian Callum]

That's right.

[Jamie]

And most of the reason you can't be a part of is because you're cunt. You're a cunt. You're a country person.

[Brian Callum]

We have a. No cunts allowed.

[Jamie]

No try to eliminate. And we have, you know, we've. We've actually banned some cunts, you know, because people were shitty people. And like, we're trying to have a real positive place where you just get better at this art form. It's a love fest. Every time we go there, everybody's having a good time.

[Brian Callum]

I love it.

[Jamie]

And you can have people that have better experiences there and worse experiences there. One of the things, like someone was saying that she went to a comedy show and Justin Martindale went on, and then the next guy who came on started saying all these slurs about him. Yeah, you know who the next guy was? Brian Holtzman. Okay. So if you know Brian Holtzman's act, it's a character he plays that's a complete maniac. And everyone. He goes on. He went after Kim Congdon the other night. Kim Congdon has this great set. She's in the little boys. Great set. Very funny. He goes on, he goes, an amazing watching women try to do things men do.

[Brian Callum]

What are you doing? Get in the kitchen.

[Jamie]

Get in the kitchen. It's a character he plays, the sweet sandwich.

[Brian Callum]

He's the sweetest human being.

[Jamie]

The sweetest human being being. So he did this with Justin.

[Brian Callum]

Justin Martindale doesn't care.

[Jamie]

Justin Martindale gets as good as he said. He like commented on it when this girl was talking about it. Like, yeah, that happened like, yeah, that happened with Brian Holtzman. You. You know what he's doing? He does that with me. He does that with everybody. Every single person. He goes on after he shits on them to set the tone. And then he shits on everything. He shits on the tech guys walking around with their. Their south by south southwest. He goes crazy. Yeah, he's funny as too. He's a legend. Like, you know what? He's doing this so that maybe this one comic didn't know, maybe no one told her, but she's like spreading all this. That it's like this hateful environment.

[Brian Callum]

It's true.

[Jamie]

I know you wish it was, because then it could suck and you're not a part of it.

[Brian Callum]

Come see how many. Come see how diverse the faces are in the mothership. It's the United nations, dude.

[Jamie]

Yeah, it really is.

[Brian Callum]

It really is. And. And including because of Tony, there are a lot of people who are. Who are disabled, who would never have a stage, but because they did some on Kill Tony, Tony, like, you know, facilitated the fact that they have a place to perform every single night and a community, and then, by the way, they've earned it. I'm not saying they haven't.

[Jamie]

Yes. And Kill Tony, they have a very unique pathway where if they can really bang out a solid minute and kill, they can have a career. Yeah, you can have a career.

[Brian Callum]

Yeah.

[Jamie]

And then Timmy, no breaks.

[Brian Callum]

He does acting off, by the way. Oh, I'm sure he's Tim, dude. That dude is. He'll just come up with shit out of him and Peyton, Ronnie will fucking. And Danny Martinella, they'll hit you with shit. And we're just like, holy.

[Jamie]

And that's Wednesday night.

[Brian Callum]

At what time Wednesday night? We do it at seven. We're doing it on October 22nd. Come see what we do. It's gamified. It's.

[Jamie]

Where is the best place to find out when you guys are going to be there? Is it the website?

[Brian Callum]

Yeah, website. And. And my website, but also my. My Instagram stuff. I post about it.

[Jamie]

Beautiful.

[Brian Callum]

And Nick Collis and my buddy Nick Simmons, who are my openers. You know Nick?

[Jamie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Brian Callum]

He's funny as.

[Jamie]

He's funny. Very funny.

[Brian Callum]

Great. We got to get him in. We got to get those. Those guys are all auditioning, too. They're going through the whole process, so it's fantastic.

[Jamie]

Great, guys. All right, you're at False Gods. Available false gods on YouTube.

[Brian Callum]

Come see me.

[Jamie]

All right, Love you, bro. Peace.

[Brian Callum]

Love you.

[Jamie]

Bye, everybody.