The Joe Rogan Experience #2398: Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin

Date: October 22, 2025
Host: Joe Rogan
Guests: Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin (hosts of Trigonometry podcast)

Episode Overview

This episode is a deep, freewheeling discussion with Francis Foster and Konstantin Kisin, British comedians and co-hosts of the Trigonometry podcast. The trio explore themes of political polarization, cancel culture, social media’s impact on society, the rise of protest culture, free speech, religion, AI, and broader philosophical questions. There is a strong focus on societal breakdown—particularly in the UK and US—the cycles of history, the risks ahead, and the things that might help individuals and societies transcend the malaise of the current era.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The State of the UK, Cancel Culture, and "Non-Crime Hate Incidents"

• Konstantin Kisin shares a recent development about UK policing

  • Graham Linehan’s legal troubles and the UK police’s stance on investigating online speech, “non-crime hate incidents.”
  • Joe questions the subjectivity and arbitrary nature of what is deemed hateful.
    Joe: "But that's also very subjective too." (04:34)
    Konstantin: "They're not gonna investigate them anymore. Yeah, but they're still gonna keep track of them is what they said." (03:37)

• Anecdotes about the UK's embrace of "woke" policies

  • The group laments the social compliance seen during the height of the pandemic, comparing it to a “fever dream.”
    Joe: "It's almost like a fever dream, you know when you really go back and pay attention to some of the more insane woke stuff." (04:27)

• Commentary on self-policing and "neighbor snitching"

  • The hosts discuss how social pressure led to increased snitching and fear.
    Jamie: "The most...the worst bit about it...wasn't necessarily the behavior of the elites, it was the behavior of ordinary people during that time." (05:09)

US, LA, and California’s Social Climate

• Parallel decline narratives in the US and UK

  • Joe describes LA as “paradise” that’s been ruined, and jokes about Trump running for governor to "fix it."
    Joe: "They fucked it up so bad that people will literally pack up and leave paradise." (06:22)
  • Jamie makes a satirical comparison to Venezuela. (06:50)

• California’s political transformation

  • Discussion of how California shifted from moderate to “nuts,” with realignment happening around Obama’s second term. Usage of "racism" spikes online circa 2014.
    Joe: "Something happened around the Obama administration. Something happened specifically around his second term that really changed everything." (07:27)

Social Media’s Effects & Outrage Culture

• Algorithms & emotional manipulation

  • The group discusses the pernicious power of algorithms, the creation of outrage cycles, and the psychological costs, especially for kids.
    Joe: "No one ever considered algorithms before. ...Never been done before. We don't know what that's like." (10:01)

• The craving for emotion online

  • Jamie notes people turn to online outrage to feel “alive.”
    Jamie: "You feel terror, you feel sadness, you feel rage...at its most basic, you feel alive." (09:34)

• Discussion of protest culture – lack of depth, “weaponizing mental illness”

  • Joe and Konstantin explore how chants and protest signs often mask lack of understanding.
    Joe: "You're weaponizing mental illness. ...you're calling these people the enemy of humanity. It's very scary." (14:29)
  • Examples of catchphrases and ideological rigidity at protests.

Political Violence, Dehumanization, and Double Standards

• Escalating rhetoric and loss of nuance

  • The use of “Nazi” and “fascist” as political attacks; the guests share disturbing examples from UK politicians and activists inciting violence.
    Jamie: "You then...you actually go to them like, what does that mean like socialists intifada. The reality is they just can't...explain because it's a chance." (28:53)
  • Joe: “If you and I and Francis thought the Nazis were here to take over, we'd all fight them. So what do you expect people to do when you put...the target on people's backs.” (11:44)

• Selective enforcement by authorities

  • Examples of double standards in UK policing of speech and protest, such as the treatment of Graham Linehan vs. left-wing figures.

Manufactured Protests & Astroturfing

• NGOs and the illusion of grassroots protest

  • Through first-hand reporting, Konstantin and Francis highlight astroturfing—NGOs and political organizations orchestrating “spontaneous” protests.
    Joe: "What are you really doing? This isn't really an organic protest. You funneled money through an NGO..." (29:14)

• Social media optics

  • Konstantin: Small protests are amplified online, giving a false sense of massive support. (25:49-26:42)

Polarization, Social Media, and Personal Interaction

• Rise of online beefs

  • The group discusses how social media has changed interpersonal conflict and the inability to resolve differences empathetically online.
    Konstantin: "I always have to stop myself from going personal, which I would never do. If we're having a debate. ...If we're having an engagement on Twitter, I literally have to stop myself from calling him a cunt." (64:07)

• AI and future of podcasts/conversation

  • Joe and Konstantin speculate about AI’s ability to create "perfect" music and even podcasts, but Joe insists human experience and perspective can’t be fully replaced.
    Joe: "Unique perspectives, I think are a thing...that resonates with me...to be around people that are talking about stuff like real people, not bullshitting, they're not pretending..." (59:00)

Religion, Certainty, and Meaning

• Role of faith and the collapse of new atheism
  • The trio discusses the comforting certainty that ideology or religion can provide, and the downsides of ideological echo chambers.
  • The persistent utility and wisdom encoded in ancient religious texts.
    Joe: "I just think it's silly to dismiss all these stories as being useless...I think they were trying to say something." (175:14)
  • Jamie describes the power of physical ritual, like handshakes in church, and relates the myth of Narcissus to modern social media.

Violence, Human Nature, and Cycles of History

• Capacity for evil and context-dependence

  • Referencing David Buss and cannibalism, they discuss how situational factors can turn ordinary people toward shocking acts.
    Joe: “Donner Party, people eat people.” (12:52)

• History repeats: polarization and scapegoating

  • Joe and Konstantin draw connections between rising fanaticism, demonization of opponents, historical religious conflict, and the dangers of suppressing dissent through military force.

Crime, Power, and Conspiracy

• False flag operations and the limits of knowledge
  • Extended discussion of historical false flags (Operation Northwoods, Gulf of Tonkin, WWII’s Gleiwitz Incident), and conspiracy theories surrounding major world events like JFK assassination and recent assassination attempts.

AI, Mental Health, and Society’s Future

• AI’s promises and threats

  • Concerns about tech utopianism, AI suicide prompts, and AI developing self-preservation instincts.
    Joe: "If it has a survival instinct, it's no longer our servant, bro." (61:29)
  • Anxiety about the loss of suffering as a driving force for achievement in society.

• Need for “the smack” – hardship as a corrective

  • The group jokes about needing a societal “asteroid” to shake people from complacency, emphasizing the importance of adversity for personal growth. (62:45)

Excellence, Passion, and Human Potential

• Mastery as the antidote to resentment and bitterness
  • Joe and Konstantin discuss the transformative power of finding something you love and pursuing excellence, whether it’s comedy, sport, or any skill.
    Konstantin: "Well, it's an antidote to bitterness and resentment, which I think is inevitable if you don't do that." (73:52)
  • Reflections on the difference between inspiration and envy.

Gender, Sports, and Evolution

• Debates on male/female difference in sports and skills
  • The group discusses why men and women differ in persistence, focus, and achievement, referencing evolutionary roles.

Primitive Technology, Hunting, and Survival

• Joe on bowhunting and ancestral skills
  • In-depth discussion of the fascination with bowhunting as a technological challenge and an echo of human prehistory.
  • Conversation on historical warfare technology (longbow vs. crossbow) and modern hunting ethics.

Human Evolution, Neanderthals, and the Cosmos

• Speculation on cycles of civilization
  • Reflections on whether we may be repeating the fate of lost civilizations; the meaning of ancient structures (Stonehenge, Gobekli Tepe).
  • Fractals, the universe, and the similarity between neural tissue and the cosmic web.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the ease of societal manipulation:
  "If I was an elite, if I was one of those lizard people running the world, I’d be like, well looky here...with just a cold, and a little bit of social media input and we got these people behaving in a way that they’d never behaved before."
  — Joe Rogan [04:43]

• On protest culture and lack of substance:
  "When they're confronted with a person who's actually asking them questions, it's remarkable how few people know why they're there."
  — Joe Rogan [15:14]

• On social media and emotional need:
  "They want to feel something...if your life is boring...the way you get that? By going online and seeing something awful happening, you feel terror, you feel sadness, you feel rage, at its most basic, you feel alive."
  — Jamie [09:34]

• On polarization and dehumanization:
  "You're weaponizing mental illness...you're calling these people who just differ with you politically...the enemy of humanity. It's very scary."
  — Joe Rogan [14:29]

• On certainty and ideology:
  "The great thing about an ideology is it gives you certainty. The terrible thing about an ideology is it gives you certainty."
  — Jamie [167:15]

• On religious ritual and community:
  "What an incredibly profound gesture that is, just to shake hands with someone and all your anger and all your resentment and everything you feel[...]but you make a literal physical connection with another human being that is so powerful."
  — Jamie [173:43]

• On the power of passion/excellence:
  "Finding something that you love, that you're good at and then getting better at it is critical for mental health. It's critical for the way you engage with the world..."
  — Joe Rogan [73:52]

• On trend of manufactured outrage and internet beefs:
  "I always have to stop myself from going personal, which I would never do. If we're having a debate...but if we're having an engagement on Twitter, I literally have to stop myself from calling him a cunt."
  — Konstantin [64:07]

Important Segment Timestamps

• [03:10] UK policing and “non-crime hate incidents”
• [05:09] Social compliance, neighbor snitching during pandemic
• [06:22] California/LA's decline parallel to Venezuela
• [07:27] Politicization of California, rise of "woke" culture 2014+
• [09:34] Emotional need for outrage online
• [10:01] Effects of social media algorithms on society/children
• [14:29] The weaponization of mental illness in protest culture
• [25:49] NGO-driven protests, illusion of organic grassroots
• [28:53] Protest chants and superficiality of activist slogans
• [59:00] The unique value of human conversation and the limits of AI
• [73:52] Excellence, mastery as antidote to bitterness
• [121:19] The “looking down” syndrome: technology vs. cosmic awe
• [131:02] Are we stuck in cycles of rise and fall? Did ancient civilizations fall to the same pitfalls?
• [175:14] The enduring usefulness of religion and myth

Tone and Style

The conversation is deeply irreverent, funny, expletive-filled, and swings rapidly between the serious, the conspiratorial, and the philosophical. There’s a recurring sense of nostalgia for lost sanity and communal meaning, as well as a sense of warning about where unchecked social, technological, and ideological trends might lead.

Conclusion

This episode is a panoramic, sometimes dizzying exploration of modern Western malaise—from social media to radical politics to spiritual hunger. The Trigonometry duo and Joe Rogan offer critique, gallows humor, and occasional moments of hope, emphasizing the value of perspective, open discussion, and the ongoing search for meaning in turbulent times.