The Joe Rogan Experience #2399: Daryl Davis & Jeff Schoep

Date: October 23, 2025
Host: Joe Rogan
Guests: Daryl Davis (Musician, Author, Race Relations Expert) & Jeff Schoep (Former Neo-Nazi, Deradicalization Advocate)

Episode Overview

This episode features an in-depth conversation about hate, transformation, and the possibilities of change through dialogue. Joe Rogan welcomes Daryl Davis—renowned for converting hundreds of KKK members and white supremacists away from hate groups—and Jeff Schoep, the former leader of the largest neo-Nazi group in the U.S. The discussion dives into their unlikely friendship, the psychology of hate, mechanisms of racist group recruitment, and what fosters true change. The guests share personal stories, strategies for deradicalization, and reveal how compassion, exposure, and dialogue dismantle extremist ideologies.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Daryl Davis’s Journey: Converting Hate Through Friendship

• Daryl Davis’s Introductory Story (04:00–06:30):
  Daryl, a Black musician, described meeting a Klansman and forming a friendship, leading that man to leave the Klan.

  “I got them to rethink because I gave them perspectives they had not considered before... I wasn’t trying to get them out. I was just trying to show them a different path.” – Daryl (03:39)

• Ripple Effect:
  Former haters improve their lives after leaving, influencing their friends to reconsider, creating a chain reaction (04:27).
• Core Principles:
  Daryl applies patience, respectful dialogue, and offers new perspectives rather than confrontation.

  “Hate is exhausting, you know, and hate begets more hate.” – Daryl (04:27)

• Cultural Observations:
  Daryl notes differences in social norms across U.S. regions, translating to broader lessons in perception (06:13).

2. Jeff Schoep’s Story: Indoctrination, Leadership, and Exit

• Background (07:17–09:57):
  Jeff details how, despite a family tied to Hitler’s army, he was not taught to hate at home. Fascinated by history and idolizing his grandfather, he independently sought out neo-Nazi groups as a teenager.

  “I was fascinated...I knew that my grandfather had fought and I looked up to him. So I sought out on a journey myself...” – Jeff (08:39)

• Joining the Movement (12:03):
  He found neo-Nazi organizations through books pre-internet, eventually joining at 18 via physical letters (12:20–12:45).
  • Rock musician identity, juxtaposed with white supremacist ideology, highlights the complexity of personal journeys (11:25–12:03).
• Rising to Power & Double Life (13:16–14:03):
  Jeff rapidly ascended to national leader, managing both a band and the movement, keeping identities separate.
• Radicalization Process (17:20–18:30):
  Initiation involved deep reading of propaganda (Mein Kampf, The International Jew), group meetings, and formal rallies (17:20–21:06).

3. The Unraveling: Seeds of Doubt and the Road to Leaving

• Consequences of Exposure (22:06–25:10):
  Jeff was doxxed at 19, leading to personal and family fallout—his mother lost a judgeship due to his association, which caused him to double down on hate before eventual doubt crept in.

  "Hate has consequences. And hate was something…It was like a downward spiral…" – Jeff (23:19)

• Early Signs of Change (26:20–26:33):
  Moving to diverse Detroit exposed Jeff to people of other races, subtly shifting his worldview.
• First Meeting with Daryl Davis (27:03–33:00):
  For a documentary, Jeff unknowingly met Daryl. Friendly small talk led him to abruptly assert his ideology, feeling threatened by the emerging rapport.

  “I’ll fight to the last bullet for my people.” – Jeff (28:32)

• Daryl’s Method (31:35–32:45):
  Daryl details their first on-camera encounter and his non-reactive approach, which triggered Jeff's curiosity and eventual openness.

4. The Power of Curiosity, Compassion, and Dialogue

• Breaking Down Walls (34:34–41:57):
  Daryl and Jeff recount the aftermath of Charlottesville and how ongoing contact and personal stories from minorities slowly opened Jeff’s mind to compassion.

  “When you dehumanize another human being, you lose your humanity in that process…I’d lost my humanity a long time ago. And what Darrell and Dia did is they cracked that window open, that window to compassion.” – Jeff (40:15)

• Change as a Process (41:57–43:10):
  Jeff’s deradicalization occurred gradually—first rebranding the group, then realizing the ideology’s inherent toxicity, and finally exiting.
• Support for Leavers (47:06–50:09):
  Both speakers emphasize the need for support—social, financial, and psychological—for those leaving hate groups.

5. The Aftermath: Life After Hate

• Professional & Personal Reinvention (50:33–54:18):
  Jeff lost his livelihood running the movement’s record label and had to rebuild from scratch, often relying on savings before becoming a public advocate.
• Stories of Transformation (53:11–54:18):
  Jeff's former chief of security, Duke Schneider, left the movement because of compassion received from a Black nurse—and married her.

  “When I walk up out of this hospital and get better, I’m gonna marry you.” – Duke cited by Jeff (54:06)

6. Why Dialogue Works: Daryl’s Principles

• Universal Core Values (54:20–58:33):
  Daryl identifies five universal needs: love, respect, being heard, fairness, and family well-being. Applying these in hostile interactions helps build trust and understanding.

  “If we can learn to apply those five core values or any...when we find ourselves in an adversarial situation...your navigation of that...will be much more smooth, much more positive, and much more productive.” – Daryl (54:20)

• Process of Change (59:50–62:00):
  Jeff reflects on the shame of his past and the stark difference in his life now.

  “It is like looking back at a different person.” – Jeff (58:49)

7. The Psychology of Hate Groups

• Tribalism & Echo Chambers (60:54–63:53):
  All agree that hate groups thrive on “us vs. them,” a sense of mission, and the desperate need for belonging.
• Recruitment Strategies (79:31–95:03):
  • Hate groups actively seek military/law enforcement for their skills.
  • Use of mainstream rallies to incite violence and media coverage, used to recruit more members elsewhere (92:14–94:14).
  • Today, social media and podcasts turbocharge recruitment, making hate accessible to all ages.

8. The Road Back into Society

• Barriers to Reintegration (104:36–106:47):
  Former extremists face deep stigma. Reporters and society often view them with less forgiveness than even criminals, making jobs and new community ties hard to access.
• Role of Forgiveness (107:05–108:50):
  Jewish communities, despite being the target of Jeff’s worst hatred, have shown him the most compassion during his rehabilitation.

9. Confronting Ideology: Why Debate and Exposure Matter

• Importance of Nuance & Open Debate (121:08–124:18): Joe, Daryl, and Jeff warn against banning discussions or “protecting” youth from bad ideologies. Real change comes from exposure to, and critical comparison between, competing arguments.

  “The way to get rid of bad ideas is to confront them with better ideas.” – Joe Rogan (123:26)

• Persuasion by Example (124:25–127:49):
  Daryl explains transformation comes, not through attack, but by offering better perceptions and letting people change themselves.

Notable Quotes and Moments (by Timestamp)

• On the process of change:
  “What can be learned can be unlearned. Jeff is an example of that.” – Daryl (54:20)
• On tribalism:
  “We are very tribal. And that can manifest itself in some very disgusting thinking.” – Joe (61:16)
• On how to support change:
  “If you want these people to leave and reintegrate into society, you have to have forgiveness.” – Joe (107:17)
• On transforming hostile conversations:
  “Negativity does promote negativity, right? Yes, positivity promotes positivity.” – Daryl (130:25)
• On engagement:
  “Pick a line that you feel comfortable on and get on it. No one line is any more important than any other line.” – Daryl (135:28)
• On Echo Chambers and Exposure:
  “Hate groups thrive on ‘us vs. them,’ a sense of mission, and the desperate need for belonging.” – Joe (60:54)
• On Nazi movement’s numbers and impact:
  "Hundreds left. The NSM was the largest neo-Nazi organization. When I left, it’s barely hanging on." – Jeff (44:50–45:01)

Practical Takeaways / Calls to Action

• Support Systems Matter: Leaving hate groups requires practical and emotional support—Daryl and Jeff now dedicate their lives to providing it.
• Dialogue is Key: The process of deconstructing hate is gradual—it starts with human connection, active listening, and sharing perspectives, not confrontation.
• Exposure to Differences: Early and wide exposure to diverse people and ideas reduces susceptibility to hate-based thinking.
• Forgiveness & Reintegration: Society must allow space for former haters to change and reintegrate—stigmatization perpetuates isolation and cycles of hate.
• Pro-Human, Not Anti-Other: Focus efforts on being “pro-human” and uniting around shared values, not merely being anti-hate.

Resources Mentioned

• Books:
  • Jeff Schoep: American Nazi: From Hate to Humanity
  • Daryl Davis: Klan Whisperer
• Organizations:
  • Beyond Barriers (Jeff's Organization)
  • Pro Human Foundation
  • Simon Wiesenthal Center
  • Parents for Peace

Final Thoughts

Both guests offer hope: hate is not permanent; it’s learned—and can be unlearned. Change comes not from screaming or shaming, but from showing respect, being patient, listening, and making space for difficult but necessary conversations.

Timestamps (Selected)

• [04:00] – Daryl’s first KKK encounter
• [09:03] – Jeff’s early fascination with Nazism
• [22:06] – Getting doxxed: personal/family consequences
• [27:03] – First-ever meeting between Daryl and Jeff
• [28:33] – On defending ideology in the face of compassion
• [34:34] – Aftermath of Charlottesville
• [40:15] – The impact of compassionate dialogue
• [54:20] – Universal human values & transformation
• [95:03] – Nazi recruitment tactics in the Internet age
• [124:18] – On the necessity of letting people confront bad ideas
• [135:28] – Everyone can contribute in their own way

“I am not anti-racist. I am pro-human. That’s what I am.”
— Daryl Davis (137:00)