The Joe Rogan Experience #2403 – Andrew Gallimore (October 30, 2025)

Overview

In this compelling episode, Joe Rogan sits down with Dr. Andrew Gallimore—neurobiologist, chemist, and pioneering researcher in psychedelics—to dive deep into the mysteries of DMT (dimethyltryptamine): its effects, its significance to human consciousness, and its potential connection to “intelligent agents” and the very nature of reality. The conversation spans scientific theory, speculative philosophy, neuroscience, anthropology, and cultural comparison—with plenty of memorable anecdotes and reflections on the strangeness of existence in 2025.

Key Topics & Insights

1. DMT: Death By Astonishment & The Mysteries of Consciousness

• Terence McKenna’s Influence: Gallimore shares that his fascination began in 1996 after reading interviews with psychedelics guru Terence McKenna. The term “death by astonishment” comes from McKenna, describing the overwhelming effect of DMT.

  "The thing you have to fear is death by astonishment." – Andrew Gallimore (00:18)

• Joe’s First DMT Experience: Rogan recounts hearing McKenna’s advice in his own DMT journey:

  “Do not give in to astonishment… it was very weird.” (00:38)

• DMT’s Game-Changing Effects: Gallimore and Rogan both stress that DMT experiences can’t be written off as simple hallucination.

  “This was an impossible experience... confronted with what seemed to me to be the undeniable hand of some kind of intelligence, and not just any kind of intelligence, but a supremely advanced, ancient, and yet highly technological intelligence.” – Andrew Gallimore (05:10)

Notable Quote

“It’s almost irresponsible to try to explain it without experiencing it.” – Joe Rogan (04:48)

2. Neuroscience of Reality Construction

• World As Model: Gallimore explains how the cortex constructs a “world model” from sensory input, which is then dramatically altered with psychedelics.
• Order-Disorder-Order Model: Typical psychedelics like psilocybin loosen the world model, but DMT “collapses into a completely new order,” suggesting a model never before constructed by the brain.
• The Thatcher Effect: Using the famous Margaret Thatcher “upside-down face” illusion, Gallimore demonstrates how perception is constructed, not simply observed.

  “Your brain is constructing a model of this person, right?” – Gallimore (31:43)

Timestamps

• [11:14–15:44] – Gallimore’s neuroscience lesson, DMT’s effect on the cortex
• [33:32–35:01] – The Thatcher Effect & hierarchical models of perception

3. Dreams, DMT, and Reality

• Dreams vs DMT: Gallimore details how dreams are drawn from the brain’s existing world model, whereas DMT seems to prompt the construction of an entirely new, never-before-learned reality.

  “It’s like the brain is speaking a language it never learned to speak and doing so flawlessly.” – Gallimore (22:43)

• Lucid Dreaming Anecdotes: Rogan shares tips and experiences on lucid dreaming and “reality tests” within dreams.
• DMT and Near-Death Experiences: Discussion of studies showing possible release of DMT during brain hypoxia (e.g., rat studies), prompting speculation about whether DMT is linked with the “afterlife journey.”

  “With DMT...are you entering into a completely different dimension that has laws that are very different than the dimension that we find ourselves in?” – Rogan (46:44)

4. Consciousness: Transmission, Construction, or Fundamental Reality?

• Is Consciousness Local or Universal? Gallimore:

  “I don’t think the brain generates consciousness. I think consciousness is in some way the only thing that really exists…everything is consciousness.” (50:44–51:12)

• Joe’s Tree-Hugging Example: Psychedelics (especially for plant communication) spark reflection on panpsychism and the consciousness of the universe.
• Buddhist Perspectives: Discussion of subjective perspectives (“existing from their own side”) and the interactive emergence of reality.

  “Reality kind of emerges by the interaction of all of these perspectives, these conscious agents.” – Gallimore (54:04)

5. Mapping & Researching the DMT Space

• DMTX Project: Gallimore describes his collaboration with Rick Strassman and others in developing intravenous DMT-infusion protocols (“DMTX”), allowing participants to remain in the DMT state for extended periods and gather more systematic data.

  “What does a research organization aimed at studying [the DMT ‘space’] look like?...send in mathematicians…linguists...” (154:15–159:46)

• AI Visualization: Upcoming plans for an AI-powered system to generate and refine visual maps of the DMT experience, using crowd-sourced trip reports.
• Legalization & Accessibility: Announcement of a new, medically supervised DMTX retreat and research facility opening in St. Vincent and the Grenadines (March 2026).

Timestamps

• [147:42–160:10] – DMTX, extended state DMT research, and the future legal retreat center

6. The Big Picture: Evolution, Technological Destiny & Chaos

• Novelty, Chaos & the Edge: Referencing McKenna’s “novelty theory,” they discuss the increasing acceleration of technological and societal chaos, perhaps as a prelude to “departing for the stars.”

  “It’s just going to get weirder and weirder and weirder…and finally it’s going to be so weird that people are going to have to talk about how weird it is.” – Terence McKenna (quoted, 58:44)

• Kardashev Scale & Post-Biological Intelligence: Gallimore explains how advanced civilizations may evolve “downwards” to exploit reality’s deepest substrate, becoming post-biological or even part of the fabric of spacetime.
• DMT Entities & Advanced Civilizations: Provocative speculation that the DMT “entities” might be post-biological intelligences communicating through our brains—more likely than classic “aliens.”

Timestamps

• [61:17–68:18] – Future of intelligence; Kardashev Scale; McKenna’s predictions
• [68:43–72:46] – Are DMT entities supreme post-biological intelligences?

7. Culture, Society, and the Human Game

• Japan as Social Model: In a wide-ranging cultural comparison, Gallimore describes the order, respect, and emergent complexity of Tokyo life, explaining how Japanese cultural values create a harmonious urban existence compared to chaotic Western cities.

  “Japan is fascinating…the first thing on your mind should be everybody else…they are thinking, you know, am I annoying anyone?” – Gallimore (137:06)

• Materialism, Innovation, & Instability: Rogan reflects on the Western drive toward acquisition and relentless innovation—viewed both as fundamental for change and possibly as a collective pathology.
• Population Decline and Cultural Preservation: Conversation on Japan’s collapsing population and risks to its unique social fabric.

Timestamps

• [131:27–141:14] – Tokyo vs. Western cities; cultural differences; respect and order

8. The Simulation/Game Hypothesis

• Are We in a Game? Gallimore draws on ancient Hindu ideas (Lila—“the cosmic play”) to propose reality as an intentionally strange, playful puzzle; DMT may be an intentional hint or “piece of the puzzle” for completing the game.

  “It’s just a game…all form is illusion.” – Gallimore (113:11)

• Joe on Memory & Simulation: Rogan describes his own daily existential question—"How do I know this isn't my first run through this?” (123:07)

Notable Quotes Recap (with Timestamps)

• "Do not give in to astonishment." – Joe Rogan quoting Terence McKenna (00:38)
• “This was an impossible experience...some kind of supremely advanced intelligence.” – Andrew Gallimore (05:10)
• “It’s almost irresponsible to try to explain it without experiencing it.” – Joe Rogan (04:48)
• “It’s like the brain is speaking a language it never learned to speak.” – Gallimore (22:43)
• “I think everything is consciousness.” – Gallimore (51:12)
• “It’s just going to get weirder and weirder...people are going to have to talk about how weird it is.” – Terence McKenna, quoted (58:44)
• “DMT...creates this neurological state where this intelligence can interact with our brain directly.” – Gallimore (107:53)
• “We are the sex organs of the machine world.” – Rogan quoting Marshall McLuhan (106:08)
• “You can never prove that the world didn’t appear five minutes ago.” – Gallimore (122:25)
• “It’s just a game…all form is illusion.” – Gallimore (113:11)
• “This is the chaos of a species preparing to leave for the stars.” – Rogan (161:00)

Further Reading / Resources

• Dr. Andrew Gallimore’s new book: Death by Astonishment (also available in audio form, read by Gallimore himself)
• dmtx research & upcoming retreat: elusismind.com
• Documentary/Book references: DMT: The Spirit Molecule (Rick Strassman), Supernatural (Graham Hancock), Works of Terence McKenna, Abduction (John Mack), works by Jacques Vallée

Conclusion

This episode stands out as an expansive, mind-bending conversation exploring DMT’s role in questioning reality; the architecture of the mind; humanity’s technological, biological, and spiritual destiny; and the enduring puzzle of consciousness. With open speculation, wit, and scientific rigor, Gallimore and Rogan make the case that the universe is far weirder than we imagine—and that we’re only beginning to scratch the surface.