The Joe Rogan Experience #2420 – Chris Masterjohn

Date: November 29, 2025
Guest: Chris Masterjohn
Summary Prepared By: Podcast Summarizer AI

Overview

In this revealing episode, Joe Rogan welcomes nutrition scientist Chris Masterjohn, PhD, for an in-depth exploration of nutrition, metabolism, mitochondrial health, and the real drivers behind longevity and disease. The conversation ranges from debunked health myths to the limits of modern nutritional studies, practical guidance on optimizing health, the debate over seed oils, the nuances of aging, athletic performance, supplements, and much more. Masterjohn’s deep expertise is matched by a focus on “food first, pharma last,” while Rogan injects practical curiosity and personal experiences, making this an especially rich listen for anyone interested in health, nutrition, and debunking persistent diet dogmas.

Key Topics & Insights

1. Debunking Nutrition Myths

• Tryptophan & Turkey Sleepiness
  • The common notion that turkey makes you drowsy due to tryptophan is a myth; it originated in the 1980s from journalists looking to explain post-Thanksgiving sleepiness ([00:25]).
  • Turkey isn't particularly high in tryptophan. Overeating is the real cause of sleepiness post-meal.
  • "I dare anyone to go out and have just a slice of turkey for breakfast and see if it knocks you out." – Chris ([00:50])
• Physiological Basis of Post-Meal Fatigue
  • The body naturally winds down after eating as part of the “rest and digest” parasympathetic response, akin to wild animals gorging then resting ([01:41]).

2. Central Role of Mitochondria in Health & Disease

• Master Thesis: Mitochondrial Function is Key
  • Masterjohn argues that optimal mitochondrial function underpins health, energy, and longevity ([02:43]).
  • Deep sleep helps mitochondria recover, which is fundamental to daily restoration ([03:40]).
  • “The crowning thesis of my work so far is that we really want to be thinking about mitochondrial function at the root of all health and disease.” – Chris ([02:47])
• Recent Study: Creatine & Sleep Deprivation
  • Creatine supplementation allows subjects to better withstand sleep deprivation cognitively ([04:20]).
  • Creatine acts as an energy distribution system, supporting mitochondria ([04:45]).

3. Beyond Muscle: Creatine’s Systemic Benefits

• Creatine isn’t only a muscular supplement; nearly every cell and tissue uses it to distribute energy ([05:44]).
• Uses include vision, fertility, even digestive processes ([06:54]).
• Notable Quote:
  “Creatine would help a lot more than muscles. And it just turns out that all you need to do is start studying it to start seeing those effects.” – Chris ([06:57])

4. Vision, Red Light Therapy, and Nutrients

• Red Light & Eye Health
  • Red light directly benefits mitochondria and energy metabolism throughout the body, not just locally ([10:02]).
  • Studies show red light exposure to the chest, not the eyes, improved vision next day, hinting at systemic effects ([10:40]).
• Supplements for Eyesight
  • Lutein and zeaxanthin (preferably from egg yolks or marigold-fed chickens) are proven for macular health ([11:40]).

5. Optimal Nutrient Intake: Food vs. Supplements

• The “Food First, Pharma Last” Approach
  • Best to obtain vital nutrients (e.g., glutathione, vitamin D, CoQ10, iodine, etc.) primarily from food, using supplements only as a targeted backup ([67:06], [80:16]).
  • "The best glutathione is the glutathione that you make yourself from the protein that you eat." – Chris ([13:58])
• Vitamin D & Sunlight
  • Sunlight offers unique health benefits beyond vitamin D, including regulation of circadian rhythms and overall mitochondrial health ([15:00]).
  • For those in sun-deprived regions, limited and controlled use of tanning beds and light therapy is suggested ([16:04]).

6. Controversial & Advanced Supplements

• Methylene Blue
  • Can dramatically help or harm mitochondrial function; should only be used when specific blockages are present, ideally verified with mitochondrial testing ([18:50]-[25:00]).
  • Misuse may worsen energy production if not indicated ([21:04]).
• CoQ10
  • Facilitates energy transfer within mitochondria; too much or too little can be problematic. Effective doses range from 100-200mg for most ([72:04]).
  • For some, very high doses are needed (case shared: amenorrhea reversed with 700-800mg/day after mitochondrial testing guided the dose) ([80:04]).

7. Aging & Longevity: Mitochondria, Exercise, Nutrition

• Aging as Mitochondrial Decline
  • Mitochondrial function declines roughly 1% per year from age 18 to 70, but age explains only 25% of the decline; the rest is modifiable ([25:17]).
  • "So 75% of this is under your control..." – Chris ([27:41])
• Top 5 Universal Mitochondrial Boosters: ([28:32])
  1. Creatine (supplement unless eating 1-2 lbs red meat daily)
  2. Sunlight exposure (especially morning)
  3. Comprehensive nutrition (balanced, nose-to-tail animal foods, protein diversity, minimize processed foods)
  4. Exercise (strength, endurance, agility, cognitive, and especially skill-based/novel movements)
  5. Adapting your approach through mitochondrial testing
• Athletic Longevity Insights
  • Gymnasts and pole vaulters live 8 years longer than average, likely due to their broad, skillful, and dynamic movement training ([40:29]; [44:02]).
  • Most longevity protocols are overly cardio-centric (e.g., based on cyclists) and miss benefits from varied movement and skill ([41:13]-[44:02]).
  • Notable moment: "What you want to do is make your mitochondrial function as good as it can be at any given age..." – Chris ([27:41])
• Novelty & Skill Learning
  • Regularly challenging yourself with new physical and mental skills staves off cognitive and neurological decline ([55:02]-[57:13]).
  • Rogan: “Wouldn't it just make sense that a skill versus just a workout... would fight off a lot of the age related decline...” ([53:47])

8. The Problem with Seed Oils

• Why Seed Oils Are Harmful
  • Make tissues more vulnerable to long-term oxidative damage, especially with aging ([94:02]).
  • Short-term studies miss cumulative effects; only long-term studies (5-8 years) show increases in cancer and mortality ([97:00]-[100:00]).
  • LA Veterans Administration Study: seed oils raised cancer and overall mortality in the long term ([99:00]).
  • "It actually takes you four years just for your tissues to start looking like the seed oil you're eating." – Chris ([100:57])
• Industry Controversy & Contrarian Defense
  • Many academics and influencers defend seed oils based on short trials, often for attention/contrarian clout ([101:14]).
  • Rogan: “The seed oil thing is a weird thing to defend... Just watch the process. Do you want to eat that?” ([102:19]-[104:24])
• Seed Oils, Cholesterol, and Plaque
  • Damage to LDL cholesterol particles from seed oil-derived fats (PUFAs) triggers immune responses, leading to plaque; consuming seed oils can double atherosclerosis risk even as LDL drops ([113:26]-[117:55]).
  • “Plaque... is the immune system quarantining damaged particles. Those particles are damaged because you loaded them with seed oils and then your mitochondrial function declined..." – Chris ([136:36])

9. Practical Advice: Food & Supplement Strategies

• Red Light Therapy
  • Helpful for mitochondrial function, vision, and systemic health, especially for those lacking morning sun exposure ([10:02]-[12:08]).
• Maximize Thyroid Health
  • Ensure sufficient protein, iodine (seafood, seaweed, or kelp), selenium, and a suite of antioxidant minerals ([129:09]-[134:31]).
  • Avoid salt avoidance: losing iodized salt can revive issues like goiter in iodine-poor regions ([130:00]-[134:31]).
• Nattokinase for Cardiovascular Health
  • Nattokinase, from fermented natto, can break down blood clots and may reduce the risk of heart attack/stroke, especially when atherosclerosis/clot risk is high ([135:49]-[148:52]).
• Exercise Variety & Injury Recovery
  • Injuries subtract from mitochondrial “reserve”; injury prevention and varied movement are essential for lasting health ([60:45]-[63:19]).
  • Creatine and proper recovery aid healing, especially for neurological trauma ([65:00]).

Notable Quotes & Moments

• Chris on Sleep & Mitochondria:
  "Deep sleep... you need to give your mitochondria a rest." ([02:43])
• On “Food First, Pharma Last”:
  "If you can meet a need with food, you should meet the need with food." ([68:56])
• On Supplement Megadosing:
  “Food is a diversified portfolio. If you don't have the expertise to run around taking different things, then food first, pharma last.” ([84:28])
• Rogan on Skill & Brain Training:
  "Wouldn't it just make sense that a skill versus just a workout ... would fight off a lot of the age related decline..." ([53:47])
• On Seed Oils & Contrarians:
  “The seed oil thing is a weird thing to defend. Just watch the process... Do you want that or do you want butter?” – Joe ([102:19])
• On Nutrition Research:
  "Scientists promised us well in excess of 8 year trials ... [50, 60] years go by and all we've got is these 7 week trials." ([98:20] paraphrased)
• On Legacy Nutrition Myths:
  "It ruined society, ruined diets for what, $50,000... For $50,000, people started eating margarine and eating seed oil and not eating butter..." – Joe ([112:06])

Key Timestamps

• [00:12] – Introduction of Chris Masterjohn
• [00:25] – Tryptophan Myth Debunked
• [02:43] – Mitochondria as Root of Health/Disease
• [04:20] – Creatine & Sleep Deprivation Study
• [10:02] – Red Light for Mitochondria & Vision
• [16:04] – Light Therapy & Sunlight Workarounds
• [18:50] – Methylene Blue: When It Helps or Harms
• [25:17] – Mitochondria & The Mechanism of Aging
• [28:32] – Top 5 Mitochondrial Health Pillars
• [40:29] – Longevity of Gymnasts/Pole Vaulters
• [53:47] – On Skill, Brain, and Aging
• [94:02] – Seed Oils: Mechanism and Research Flaws
• [113:26] – Cholesterol, Plaque, and Seed Oil Damage
• [129:09] – Thyroid Function Optimization
• [135:49] – Nattokinase and Blood Clot Health

Conclusion: Takeaways

• Put Mitochondria First: Rethink health, disease, and aging as fundamentally issues of mitochondrial capacity and resilience.
• Use Food as Foundation: Optimize diet—nose-to-tail, diverse, unprocessed, and rich in critical nutrients—before reaching for supplements or pharma.
• Combat Aging Proactively: 75% of mitochondrial decline is modifiable; master exercise, skill training, sunlight, nutrition, and recovery.
• Scrutinize Health Trends: Question short-term studies, nutritional dogma, and “influencer science”; the real risks of seed oils and benefits of ancestral eating outstrip highly-manufactured, short-sighted alternatives.
• Test, Don’t Guess: For advanced supplementation (e.g., methylene blue, high-dose CoQ10), individual mitochondrial testing is vital.
• Broader Health is Multidimensional: Challenge yourself physically and mentally throughout life—novelty, skill, and adaptability matter as much as strength and endurance.

Find Chris Masterjohn:

• Newsletter: chrismasterjohnphd.substack.com
• Mitochondrial Testing: mito.me

For full references and scientific backing, listeners are encouraged to explore Chris Masterjohn’s newsletter and resources.