#2421 - Derek, More Plates More Dates

Summary

Podcast Summary: Joe Rogan Experience #2421 – Derek, More Plates More Dates

Date: December 2, 2025
Host: Joe Rogan
Guest: Derek (More Plates More Dates)
Episode Theme: Supplement Innovation, Performance, Biohacking, PEDs, and Modern Fitness Culture

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on the science, development, and cultural impact of cognitive and physical performance supplements, especially the new Gorilla Mind nootropic drink developed by Derek. The conversation dives deep into supplement formulation, nutrition, the evolution of performance enhancement (legal and illegal), the realities of PED use in both sports and Hollywood, and broader discussions on health, weight loss, hormone therapies, athletic performance, and the psychological effects of modern technology and social media.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Launch of Gorilla Mind’s Nootropic Drink

• Flavor & First Impressions ([00:03])

  • Joe tries the new “Red Gummy Fish” flavor and praises its taste.
  • Derek explains this is a liquid version of their nootropic formula for daily, general use.

• Formula Rationale & Key Ingredients ([00:41])

  • Derek details the move from capsules to drink format, including:
    • Tyrosine (dopamine precursor)
    • Alpha GPC (bioavailable choline for cognition)
    • Caffeine (200mg per can; balance between effect and overuse)
    • Uridine monophosphate (“Restores” dopamine response even in stimulant-adapted cases)
    • L-Theanine (balances caffeine, boosts “verbal fluency” and focus)
    • Saffron Extract (antidepressant/anti-anxiety, SSRIs alternative, low side-effect profile)
    • Huperzine-A (prevents acetylcholine breakdown for a “one-two punch” effect)

  “You have just like a heightened level of cognitive capacity through both like the one, two punch.” – Derek ([06:19])

• Dose Determination & Synergy ([06:19]–[08:04])

  • Derek describes years of personal experimentation and clinical research.
  • Designed for efficacy but long-term safety; avoids “hammer” solutions (megadoses).
  • Early days involved logbooks, trial and error, mixing bulk nootropics at home.

  “You'd make some disgusting shake...and create your ultimate combination through trial and error.” – Derek ([08:04])

2. Supplement Industry & Early Experiences

• Nootropic Evolution & Alpha Brain ([11:36])

  • Joe recounts experimenting with Neuro1 and development of Alpha Brain, discussing its side effects (e.g. headaches in some users).
  • Derek shares a cautionary tale about early Gorilla Mind prototypes with L-dopa causing severe dopamine overdoses.

  “Oh my God, I had like dopamine overdose myself...way too intense.” – Derek ([15:11])

• Advantages of Drink vs. Pill ([16:25])

  • Adjusting dosage is easier and more flexible with drinks.

3. Nutrition and Performance Essentials

• Choline & Dietary Deficiencies ([01:45])

  • Choline rarely prioritized; best through liver, eggs, nutrition-dense foods.
  • Many with “relatively balanced” diets still partially deficient.

• Caffeine’s Real Performance Doses ([17:11])

  • Most “acutely ergogenic” studies use 3-6mg/kg (often 400–600mg per serving).
  • Historical context: performance benefits, previous banned stimulant thresholds, athletic tactics.

• Creatine Dosage & Forms ([21:00])

  • Revisiting standard vs. “megadose” creatine.
  • Powder vs. gummies; palatability vs. convenience.
  • Creatine’s misunderstood reputation (“like steroids”), differences in tolerance, especially among women.

4. The Wild West: Supplement & PED History

• GNC “Wild West” Days ([26:12])

  • Prohormones, over-the-counter steroids, and “meth-like” stimulants (e.g., original Jack3d).
  • Lax oversight led to dangerous drugs, early deaths, and side effects (including erectile dysfunction).

• Bodybuilding's Culture of Deception ([31:13])

  • Lying about steroid use for endorsements, misleading new athletes.
  • Shift toward more transparency due to social/media consequences.

  “You have one chance to tell the truth forever...the moment you violate that, you're always a liar.” – Joe ([33:10])

5. PEDs in Hollywood & Sports

• Actors and PED Openness ([34:05])

  • Frank Grillo’s transparency on TRT and Anavar.
  • The Rock alluding to peptide use; speculation on health-driven downsizing.
  • Body image shift: mass monsters vs. “downsizing” for health/artistic roles.

• F1 and Supplement Use ([61:14])

  • Tech advancements, hydration tricks (glycerol), and queries into nootropic use among drivers.

6. Hormones, Medicine, & Policy

• Women's HRT: Science, Stigma, and Policy Reversals ([69:25])

  • Decades of fear over breast cancer risks were based on studies with non-bioidentical (horse-derived) hormones.
  • Recent FDA reversal of black box warnings after improved evidence of safety and benefits.

  “So for years...we went thinking, oh, it's going to cause clotting issues...Now...it's like, look at all this literature showing the cardioprotective effects, showing the neuroprotective effects, showing the bone support...” - Derek ([73:06])

• Testosterone, Transitioning, and Medical Ethics ([78:39], [81:25])

  • Over-enthusiastic optimization in women, risk of masculinization.
  • Trans hormone therapy: euphoria vs. long-term unknowns; detransitioner struggles.
  • The impact of social trends, policy, and medical gatekeeping on individual outcomes.

7. Modern Obesity, GLP-1s, and Weight Loss

• GLP-1 Agonists (Ozempic, etc.) and Combination Therapies ([155:19])
  • Appetite suppression, muscle/bone loss risk; future direction: combine with anabolic agents (IGF, myostatin inhibitors) and strength training.
  • Examples of successful natural weight loss (Jelly Roll) and “willpower monsters” (Goggins-inspired transformation).

8. Genetics, Enhancement and the Future

• Gene therapies, Myostatin Inhibitors, and Limits ([155:01])

  • The possibility of future genetic engineering for hypertrophy.
  • Limb-lengthening, “bone smashing,” and the social pressure to “fix” one’s genetics.

• Biohacking Caution ([178:39])

  • Real complications from limb lengthening; need for skepticism with extreme enhancement methods.

9. Social Media, Fame, and Mental Health

• Toxicity and Addiction ([117:41], [126:55])
  • How chasing likes, approval, and online validation saps “precious resources.”
  • Joe’s evolving boundary-setting: post-and-ghost, separate work phones, do not disturb settings.
  • Social media’s unique negative effect on relationships, fame, and personal well-being.

  “It’s the opposite of mindfulness...living for other people’s attention that you don’t even know.” – Joe ([119:01])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Supplement Overdose
  “Just like makes you extremely nauseous...A lot of people think more is better...but with dopamine if you overdo it...you just get sick and have to lie down for hours.” – Derek ([15:46])

• On Caffeine and Athletic Dosing
  “The studies done for caffeine-induced performance enhancement are all looking at like three to six milligrams a kilogram...400, 500, 600 milligrams are the doses that really move the needle.” – Derek ([17:11])

• Hollywood PED Openness
  “You have one chance to tell the truth forever. The moment you violate that, you're always going to be a bullshit artist.” – Joe ([33:10])

• On Social Media’s Dangers
  “For the most part...you’re using very valuable resources on things that aren’t valuable at all.” – Joe ([122:03])

• On Weight Loss Mindset
  “It's the hardest to make that first step and get that big of a weight cut...and then it's momentum after that.” – Joe ([159:38])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Gorilla Mind Drink Introduction & Ingredients ([00:03] – [06:19])
• Formulation, Dosing, and Personal Testing ([06:19] – [09:26])
• Nootropic and Supplement Industry Stories ([11:34] – [16:24])
• Nutrition Deficiencies & Caffeine Science ([01:43]; [17:11])
• Workout Supplements, Creatine & the Gummy Debate ([21:00] – [24:02])
• Wild West Supplement Stories & PEDs in Sports ([26:12] – [33:43])
• PEDs/Transparency in Hollywood/Actors ([34:05] – [39:14])
• Hormone Replacement Therapy, Science, and Policy ([69:25] – [76:25])
• GLP-1 Drugs, Fat Loss, and Future “Smart” Stacks ([155:01] – [157:32])
• Social Media, Fame, and Mental Health ([117:41]; [119:01]; [127:30])
• Genetic Engineering, Limb Lengthening, Biohacking Extremes ([155:08]; [173:03])

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Tone & Style Notes

• Informal, candid, and often humorous with sporadic profanity.
• Joe alternates between storytelling, probing questions, and skeptical commentary.
• Derek is detailed, methodical, occasionally self-deprecating, and emphasizes evidence and firsthand experience.
• Both reveal a deep wariness of hype cycles — whether in supplements, exercise trends, or public narratives.

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For Listeners Who Missed It…

This episode is a goldmine for anyone interested in nutrition, cognition, performance hacks, and the ethical grey areas of biohacking and PEDs. Whether you're a fitness enthusiast, sports fan, or just curious about modern health debates (from hormone therapy to the impact of scrolling your phone), there’s a blend of science, personal anecdotes, and cultural commentary you won’t want to miss.

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[End of summary]

Transcript

[A]

Joe Rogan podcast.

[B]

Check it out. The Joe Rogan experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. Tell me about your new drink. Look at this here. Red gummy fish. I'm about to try it for the first time and this is a nootropic.

[A]

Yeah. So it's I think on the first episode maybe that I did with you. Oh, robust, eh?

[B]

That's good.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, that's delicious. You mean robust. You're saying it like it Potentially.

[A]

Oh, both flavor and I think it's great. Oh, right on.

[B]

Red gummy fish. It's delicious. I drink the out of this. A lot of stuff in here. What's in here?

[A]

So I think it was the first time I was on you asked me about Gorilla mind and the nootropic formula that I use before podcasts and you know, to get cognitively dialed and at the time it was a capsule based formula. It still is, it still exists. But taking what we could to suspend in a liquid format and getting it into something that's more like publicly and widely accepted that they would want to drink on a regular basis and it's something you could use daily. It's kind of what we did in this. So we included essentially like a daily use version of the gorilla mind formula, which includes the tyrosine precursor for dopamine as well as other neurotransmitters, catecholamines like adrenaline, noradrenaline, also alpha gpc. Most bioavailable form of choline. It crosses the blood brain barrier and is pretty efficacious and also just a good choline source in general, which most, most people are deficient in as a nutrient and I think completely unaware that it's actually important to be supplementing with potentially pretty hard to get an adequate amount of choline.

[B]

But where does it come from in food?

[A]

Liver is a good source. Eggs and in general it's just like the highly nutrition dense foods that you would get it from. A lot of people aren't focusing on specifically either because of caloric density or it's like an animal based like nose to tail thing or fill in the blank. It's not impossible to do it. A lot of people who focus on it could probably relatively easily, but it's still one of the things you have to focus on actually kind of like maneuvering into your diet typically. So. So in general most people are at least maybe like 50% of the way that are at best and that's even among people who I would say are relatively balanced diet individuals.

[B]

But interesting.

[A]

So I'm sure you're familiar with cholinergics and their impact on cognition and whatnot. Caffeine Tried and true.

[B]

How much you got in here?

[A]

200 milligrams.

[B]

Nice.

[A]

Very difficult decision trying to come up with what is the amount you're gonna stick with in perpetuity in this thing.

[B]

Everyone's addicted now. It's a real issue with caffeine.

[A]

So it's like the fine balance of not too much something that is still, you know, tolerable, sustainable, going to be widely accepted and widely impactful on a beneficial level, but not overdoing it. And 200 is kind of what we landed on. And then uridine monophosphate, pretty unique ingredient. I haven't seen anybody ever included a drink, let alone even in supplements typically.

[B]

What is it?

[A]

So it's also something that operates via the cholinergic system, but in a different way. Mainly it's utility is kind of enhancing your sensitivity to stimulants. So somebody who is otherwise desensitized from like heightened exposure to things that either desensitize them to caffeine or nicotine or things of this nature, even some like the ADHD medications, this can actually at least the literature suggests strongly that it enhances dopamine neurotransmission potential. So like almost restoring function and damaged dopamine producing neurons in the brain. So you can kind of get a heightened impact out of the same level of stimulant. So a caffeine dose that might otherwise be, you're used to it now, you start to feel it again more than you used to without having to increase your caffeine intake. Yeah, so it's a pretty cool ingredient and it seems to have some neuroprotective properties potentially as well and some interesting literature on like Alzheimer's and whatnot. But it's more like fringe and to be determined how impactful it is. And then on top of that we have L. Theanine. You're probably familiar with its effect. Stacked with caffeine increases alpha waves. Good for verbal fluency as well as just general attention, concentration, but keeping you a little bit more balanced and mellow while you have the heightened stimulatory activity from the caffeine and the other kind of like dopaminergic compounds and then also saffron extract, which is a totally unique inclusion in my opinion. Still don't really see it in nootropic formulas, let alone in drinks. And it's something that in literature is shown to be as efficacious as pharmaceutical SSRIs without inducing the same erectile dysfunction inducing effects of it and without causing the same anhedonia inducing effects which is kind of like the muting of like pleasure in the, in the brain. So Saffron, yeah, super interesting ingredient. It seems to be pretty impactful for depression, for anti anxiety. And it also operates through a seemingly different mechanism. Even though it's often stacked up against SSRIs for its comparisons and outperforms them or matches it with a relative lack of side effects. It is something that operates through seemingly antioxidant activity, some dopaminergic, some serotonergic, and it's just a little bit more of a benign way to achieve what is a similar outcome, but with a seemingly lower if not negligible to non existent side effect profile. I'm not saying that's what our drink does, I'm just saying that's what the literature on Saffron, anyone can go look that up and reference it. And then who pairs DNA, probably the most impactful acetylcholinesterase inhibitor that you can include alongside like choline precursors. So it inhibits the breakdown of acetylcholine as opposed to being the fuel, like the precursor, like choline, acetyl alpha, gpc, cdp, choline, these are things that provide the substrate to actually produce the acetylcholine. Preventing the breakdown of it too. Could otherwise get like a one, two punch where you get the heightened fuel substrate, but then also an inhibition of its breakdown. So you have just like a heightened level of cognitive capacity through both like the one, two punch.

[B]

How did you determine these like doses and what you were going to include and not include?

[A]

So a lot of it derived from the original capsule based formula. So back in, I don't know, 2021 I had already been using this thing daily use essentially. And it was something that was determined based upon years of experience, personal anecdotes. But digging through hordes of clinical literature, ultimately there's a lot of these compounds that have clinical studies on them for different applications. You can kind of sift through what are the efficacious dosages, where are they impactful or as a sustainable level, you could actually take this long term without it being negatively impactful on because sometimes if you overdo it in one area over time it might be problematic. So trying to find the fine balance of where is a dose that moves the needle but isn't going to kind of like push you in too far of a negative direction that it's unsustainable because sometimes that this stuff, it's like a hammer solution. You might see an energy drink that's like 300, 350 caffeine and it's like, okay, you know, you've essentially like singled out a lot of the customers who might otherwise benefit from it. Even if there was other good stuff in the drink. It's like only stem junkies can use it now, you know. So, yeah, this is kind of like the fine balance of what I thought to be the most sustainable version of balancing, you know, dopamine input, serotonergic activity, getting some of that, you know, anti anxiety support, and also getting a reasonable hit of caffeine.

[B]

And did you so in pill form. So did you start out by using each individual supplement and then trying to use them in combination to see if there's a synergistic effect? Like, how did you do it over time?

[A]

I guess maybe that's a bit more interesting than digging through literature, but when I was a university student, just like being a nerd, mixing stuff in my kitchen, like a chemist essentially, and just measuring raw powders back, you know, in the day, what we would do or at least, you know, like biohackers and what have you, we'd buy just like off of different websites, raw bulk ingredients. And then you'd measure out with little micro spoons in these laboratory increments to try and get, okay, the microgram equivalent of this. And you'd make some disgusting shake with a concoction of different unflavored powder outers and create what is your ultimate kind of combination through trial and error, ultimately.

[B]

And were you like doing a diary like today? I feel great.

[A]

Yeah, it's just keeping a log almost like, you know, working out, like how did you respond to fill in the.

[B]

Blank or did you take into account like sleep, all these different factors, diet.

[A]

As many variables at the time, obviously a bit more rudimentary and crude when you're like 21 years old and you're just trying to like get cognitively locked in to study for finals. But back then it was just what is the most impactful things that I've heard work? And then also digging further into literature, looking on the limited forums that existed back then online, because it's a lot more of a, like a niche community back then. It's not like this was widely discussed. 20 2009, 2008.

[B]

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[A]

Yeah, so like that's when I first.

[B]

Started fucking around with them. Oh yeah, Yeah. I first found out about Neuro1. That was the first one I found out about.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Did you ever try that one?

[A]

Neuro One?

[B]

It's Bill Romanowski's company, the football player. So he developed it because he was having cognitive problems after, you know, years and years of playing football. And so he came up with this Formulation. And I was doing this radio show, Alison no Name in San Francisco. And no names a dude. I forgot his name, unfortunately.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

So long ago. But he was working out with Romanowski. Romanowski was trying to get him in shape and he gave him this stuff. He said, hey, try it. And it was, you know, I do morning radio. When you promoting, Like, I was doing Cobbs Comedy Club. When you ever do in a comedy club, you'd show. This is back in the day when radio meant something. You'd show up in the morning and you do the morning drive. And they would go, oh, Joe Rogan's appearing at the comedy club this weekend. Come see him. And you'd be funny on the radio and have a good time with the people. And he gave it to me and I was like, hey, man, this stuff feels like something's going on. Like, this is legit. And that's what really got me. And that's how we developed alpha brain. We developed alpha brain after me trying out Neuro one saying, is there. Can we optimize this? Is there another way to do this? Is there, you know, other forms that we're missing? And. But your formulation seems like very comprehensive and also fucking delicious.

[A]

Yeah, it's one of the difficult things, too, is making it taste good while still being able to suspend the active ingredients because they could just fall out of suspension or. Myriad of different issues, coordination problems. Even exploding cans in transit that you're not predicting are going to react a certain way. Even the black lids, dude. Like, it's stuff you don't even think of, but absorbing heat, it's like, oh, it's gonna be more prone to blowing up now because of that.

[B]

Oh, because of a black lid. Did you want a black lid just for aesthetics?

[A]

Yeah. At the time it was like, this looks cool. Yeah, exactly.

[B]

And so what are you sweetening this stuff with?

[A]

Primarily sucralose, which obviously, you know, some people have their opinions on it and that's totally fine and good, but in general, based on clinical literature, seems to be well tolerated.

[B]

And what is the issue with it? That people.

[A]

I think some people think it depends on the person and, like, the kind of content they make. Typically. And typically, they have a bit of a bias. Yeah. But in general, it's, you know, going to irritate your gut or it could cause GI distress. And for some people with extremely sensitive gastrointestinal issues, it can for sure. But in general, at the dosages used and just having it even conservatively, which most people are gonna be, it's like, pretty benign, at least from the literature I've seen.

[B]

One of the things that we had noticed when we first came out with Alpha brain was for some people, it's a small amount, but for some people, they would get headaches and they felt terrible after taking it. I don't know what their dose. I don't know if they were taking the recommended dose or if they were saying, well, two's good, I'll take five. And there's a lot of folks like that out there.

[A]

But yeah, some of these, if you're not careful, it could be, you know, pushing you into like, we vetted this out beforehand, but one of the first formulations or prototypes of Gorilla Mind in the capsule form, we had something called velvet bean extract, which standardizes to L. Dopa. So like Levodopa is used for like Parkinson's patients because it's a direct precursor to dopamine without a rate limiting step that kind of like inhibits, regulates the conversion. So rather than using tyrosine, we were like, we thought, and we didn't end up releasing it because of this. We could just go, okay, let's get a straight precursor and see how impactful this thing is, because we really want it to hit. And oh my God, I, I had like dopamine overdose myself. Had my girlfriend at the time, also herself up and my parents themselves up. And somehow it didn't, it didn't occur until like, like three incidents later. I'm like, okay, this thing is unsustainable. And I guess my, my business partners didn't really even think worth mentioning, which was kind of crazy at the time because they just trusted me to do the formulations and whatnot. But they had the same experience and didn't bring it up. And I'm like, guys, like, we can't release this shit. It was just like way too intense.

[B]

What did it do to you?

[A]

Just like makes you extremely nauseous. You feel like you have to keel over on a couch and just lie there until you feel like you can actually regain composure and start moving around again.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah. Dopamine. A lot of people think more is better you're not. More motivation, more drive, more, you know, the more the better is what a lot of people think. But similar to probably even worse than stimulants, because at least stimulants, you have kind of like a direct biofeedback through. Your heart rate's going through the roof and you're getting the anxiety with dopamine if you overdo it with something that you can't, like, rate limit either. You just, like, get sick and you just end up having to lie down for hours.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

One thing I like about a drink versus a pill form is that you can just take a little.

[A]

Yeah. You can meter your dose.

[B]

Yeah. Because you take a pill, you're taking a pill. That's it. You can't, like, unless you want to cut pills in half or pour some of the capsule out. No one's doing that. But this is nice because you could just kind of sip a little bit of it. How many of these can you drink in a day?

[A]

I could drink a lot, personally. Like, you don't even want to know, dude.

[B]

How many do you drink a day?

[A]

On a typical day, probably 2 to 3, but I.

[B]

What's recommended?

[A]

Oh, check the warning label, bro.

[B]

What does the warning label say, bro?

[A]

It must say no more than two a day, but I would say on a podcast, not more than one is what I would recommend.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, especially with all that caffeine as well. Yeah.

[A]

You never know in general. 400 milligrams is even like the FDA stated, you know, everyone's going to be okay, probably dose. But in reality, it's kind of crazy. A lot of people don't realize the studies done for caffeine induced performance enhancement are all looking at like three to six milligrams a kilogram, which is like, unless you're a tiny woman. 400, 500, 600 milligrams are the doses that actually really move the needle when it comes to acute performance enhancement.

[B]

Chael Sonnen used to take it in pill form.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because he was saying that there's a level where they'll test you. Well, you'll pop. Where they'll say, okay, you're in a stimulant level. Like you took a stimulant before you fought.

[A]

Yeah. They have a. They had threshold concentrations that they would deem inappropriately high, perhaps for safety, perhaps because they thought it was an unfair advantage. It kind of.

[B]

I think that's what they were looking at it.

[A]

It kind of depends, though, because I think it was removed, and I don't think that threshold exists anymore, except in the ncaa. I'd have to revisit it, but I'm pretty sure caffeine is like, essentially you could go full bore at this point.

[B]

Interesting. So 5, 600 milligrams was what the efficacious dose was.

[A]

So you can get performance enhancement as low as I think some people was, like a milligram per kg. It depends on the person and tolerance of course. But in general the most tried and true studies when it comes to repeatable high impact with a proportional relative lack of side effects, but not none was like three to six milligrams a kilogram and some of the studies go even higher than that.

[B]

Interesting. And what, what are the benefits? Like what did they get?

[A]

Like acute strength enhancement offsetting like any sleep induced deprivation performance outcomes. Mentally you can pretty much offset like a shitty night of sleep and all the kind of detriments to your performance via a pretty solid dose of caffeine. Yeah, most of the stuff is kind of energy acutely offsetting performance decrement related but also in a context of strength high intensity activity, you can absolutely get a benefit from it. And there's a reason why, you know, sprinters will take you know, Modafinil or high dose caffeine or power lift. Power lifters will take you know, massive doses of you know, pre workout before lift or whatnot. Like it's all impactful for your cycle psychological state to get really like locked in in a hyper vigilant state to really max out on what you're trying to do, whatever it may be.

[B]

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[A]

Yeah, he's great.

[B]

Great. And we were talking about the impact of Creatine and you know, and they're trying to figure out like what, what is the correct dose. And a lot of people are going 20, 30, they're getting pretty high, you know, because recommended was like 5 milligrams, I think.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And now everyone's saying actually the real benefits are at 20 and you know, at least 10. But you're getting a lot of what, what happens when people have sleep deprivation. And I, I'll butcher the science so I won't try to repeat it. And I recommend anybody listen to the episode. But what he was essentially saying was it bypasses all the problems that occur and you could at least have a bridge to your performance would not be impeded by a lack of sleep. At least for a temporary. Yeah, for a day or whatever.

[A]

Yeah, definitely want to touch on that. But one thing to mention on the caffeine too is I think a lot of people when they hear the stuff like, you know, I heard you can go up to 20 grams of creatine or you know, the high, the highest impact dose in caffeine literature is, you know, three to six milligrams a kilogram. It's not like I or I imagine Chris is like blindly recommending anybody start there.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And it could easily get misconstrued that way in like a clippable format if people will just like hear the headline and then run with it. Like you should start as low as you can with caffeine and you could get a ergogenic effect as low as. I think the lowest dose was like 50 to 100 milligrams probably if you equate it to body weight. But it's all like tolerance dependent. It's just when you look at the studies like these are the repeatable high impact outcomes are typically in and especially in like trained athletes or you're trying to see how hard you can push them. It's kind of like, you know, for max stress resilience, max, you know, acute force production. These are the kind of dosages that are just used in the studies. So anyway, with that caveat and same with the creatine, you know, you might yourself, you go to 20 right away, you don't want to start there.

[B]

A lot of people do apparently.

[A]

Yeah. And I mean like, like Rhonda Patrick, amazing content and she tolerates 20 grams well, which is kind of like surprising because I know a lot of women who don't. I think she does a probably micro doses it throughout the day and is really regimented about making sure she's diligently spreading it out. But some people who they bomb 20 at a time, even guys who think they have iron stomachs, just shit all over their place.

[B]

It's like, so much powder, too. Yeah. Just the fact that. That you're consuming all this powder.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Speaking of which, are you still doing the, like, million gummies a day?

[B]

Of what?

[A]

Of creatine. No, you said you were gonna crank that shit up to get to 20 grams.

[B]

I stopped with the gummies and I went to powdered form. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

Because I felt like I'm tired of eating these fucking things.

[A]

You got up to like, what, like 10 plus a day or more?

[B]

I was eating like 15 a day. 15. 15 gummies a day. But the issue is, like, what else is in the gummies? You know? What, what are the other things?

[A]

Yeah, they're not gelatin and calories either. It's kind of just like if I'm going to eat candy, you know, kind of want it to be like, good candy.

[B]

Yeah. I don't even know what it's sweetened with. They taste good. But the point was, it's like, I didn't like eating them. I was eating. I'm, like, forcing myself to chew these things down. I'm like, what am I doing? I could just mix creatine in a glass of water, stir it up real quick, and just chug it in five seconds and we're done. I don't have to chew and swallow all these stupid fucking gummies.

[A]

I know.

[B]

But I do keep them. I keep them around because I think it's a great thing. Like, if I hadn't had enough lately, I'll just pop a few.

[A]

It's like the best gateway drug, if you can even call it. It's not like a drug, but to get people who otherwise would never try it to actually see the benefits of it.

[B]

Right?

[A]

So, like, I know so many women who literally refuse to take the powder because.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Even though it's kind of tasteless, it's still a nuisance. Can be a little bit messy, depending on the scooper shape of it and everything, and how you're going to try to convince a chick like it. Trust me, it's really good for your health. If you like, you know, fudgeing, swig this thing dry and then chase it with water every day. It's not. It's not the easiest sell. Every time, they're like, fuck you, I don't care. So the gummies are good for that, in my opinion. And, yeah, I mean, we're going back to the 20 grams and the offsetting of, you know, performance deteriorations, I do think it's basically offsetting kind of the deficiencies in like ATP production, especially locally in the brain, and also kind of offsetting the pulling of resources away from like methylation support and whatnot in order to produce the endogenous creatine as well. These things can all be impactful to kind of like get you back to almost baseline. So if you're in a deteriorated state, being able to offset the performance decrements from an otherwise, you know, sleep deprived state or, you know, you're traveling or what have you, like, it can absolutely be super impactful. And the literature has shown that time and time again.

[B]

What's interesting is that creatine in the 1990s was thought of like steroids.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean it was really like frowned upon. Like, oh my God, someone's taking creatine, they're cheating. It was really, that's like how it was first introduced to the market.

[A]

You have to hide it from your parents when you're a teenager.

[B]

Really.

[A]

Yeah. Well, at least when I was a teenager, it was kind of like it had a taboo still. It was like, you know, kind of like steroids, light version.

[B]

Well, it's because it works.

[A]

Yeah. And parents. But they hear the stigma and the taboo associated, like I heard creatine, they're selling it at the gncs.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, better watch out for that one.

[B]

Meanwhile, they had real steroids at gnc.

[A]

Oh yeah. The irony too. Yeah, I mean like fucking M1Ts over the counter from you know, like some 19 year old kid who's just like manning the counter and doesn't care and like fuck your endocrine system up. To sell it to you 100%.

[B]

I took some stuff called Mag 10. Do you remember that?

[A]

If I saw the ingredient deck, I'm sure it's just like some fucking run in the mill M1T product or something.

[B]

Gained like 10 solid pounds of muscle in a month.

[A]

And I bet your liver markers, not that you did blood work back then, were destroyed. Yeah. Like worse than if you took like injectable tren even.

[B]

Right? Right.

[A]

Yeah, it's crazy.

[B]

Yeah, well, 100%. It killed my dick afterwards too. When I got off of it, I was like, what's going on? And I was like, oh, this is a real steroid.

[A]

Yeah. And that's like, you're not giving the PCT from the guy at the counter.

[B]

I felt like a fucking gorilla when.

[A]

I was taking it.

[B]

I Felt so strong when I was taking it. I literally gained. I think it was like I was on it for five or six weeks, and I gained 10 solid pounds of muscle.

[A]

The amount of people that have inadvertently gotten gynecomastia from those days when they were sold some irresponsible pro hormone over the counter without, like, any knowledge of what they were taking, and then had to just recover naturally with no support. It's a shame.

[B]

Yeah, well, there was so much of that stuff, like, werewolf blast. There was, like, dragon's dick. You could buy them. And they were just pills. They were just regular pills.

[A]

The stimulants are crazy, too. Like, ephedrine was over the counter and, like, so weird. In Canada, for relatively recently, even it was still available over the counter. Even though Canada is, like, super tight on regulation when it comes to the most weird stuff. Like, when it comes to caffeine, you can't even have a can with 200 milligrams. It has to be, like, 180 or lower. Why exactly? I don't know, but that is a thing. As well as limitations on basic amino acids. It's like tyrosine, if it's more than, like, 10 milligrams or something.

[B]

Amino acids, yeah. That's hilarious.

[A]

Yeah, it's great. Based on what nonsense.

[B]

Oh, God, nanny state.

[A]

But anyway, so ephedrine, for whatever reason, was still over the counter available in GNCS up until, like, a handful of years ago. And it was, you know, the best seller in GNCs and a lot of supplement stores. Not just because it worked as, you know, like a bronco dilator, but also because people were buying it in bulk to make meth.

[B]

I believe it. I took Rip Fuel once for Jiu Jitsu, right before Jiu Jitsu, and I had to stop in the middle of class. I was like, I gotta sit down. I pulled over to the side. I'm like, guys, my fucking heart is beating out of my chest.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I was explaining. I don't remember how many I took, but I took some Rip fuel. I was like, well, it's good to lift with. I'll try it for Jiu Jitsu. It's fucking. For something that, like, really taxes your cardiovascular system. It was horrendous.

[A]

Resting, horrid. Like, 120.

[B]

Right away, I was tired. Like, right away. Like, right away, like, we start rolling. I was like, God, I'm fucking exhausted. My heart's beating out of my chest.

[A]

But in your brain, you're like, feels good.

[B]

I knew I fucked up. I knew I did it once and I never did it again.

[A]

If you're. If you're doing that sport. But for a guy who's going to the gym and is told like, this is the shit, bro.

[B]

If you're just lifting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If you're just going for, like, Max.

[A]

Bench, that kind of shit, anybody watching will know you know the original. Have you heard of Jack 3D?

[B]

Yeah, I took that, too.

[A]

Yeah. She was nuts. And what's crazy, too, is back then it was proprietary blends on a lot of the products, and it was still the norm with no education available, no YouTube to really tell you what to look for.

[B]

So no oversight.

[A]

Yeah. So these companies would basically sell you for, you know, 50 bucks a tub of, like, a powder flavored tub of just, like, the stimulant. And then it was like, like, all the other ingredients for vasodilation, they're like, fudge. You. You're just getting dma.

[B]

Yeah. You were just getting, like, straight meth.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It was crazy. There was. So those were the Wild west days of, like, GNCs and, like, local vitamin shops.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because you could get stuff that really worked. Like, worked like something that's highly illegal.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they could buy with a credit card.

[A]

And the sales tactics were just, like, so ruthless, but you couldn't really prove them otherwise.

[B]

Right. Like, it was always like a pit bull with, like, giant muscles on the COVID of, like, lightning bolts.

[A]

Yeah. It's funny, too, because some of these companies, it's like, now we're in the mix, competing with them on shelves or whatever. But I remember being, like, convinced back when I was a teenager by them. Oh, you need, you know, Gakic, Luke kick and CRE kick and this combo that cost 250 bucks.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's like, you know, literally press tablets of, like, glutamine or something at a dose that doesn't even help. And they're telling me, like, this is what Jay Cutler used to fucking prep for the Olympia.

[B]

Sure. Yeah.

[A]

He's like, look at the before and after of Lee Priest. He lost, like, 50 pounds of pure fat and kept all his muscle from Celtec.

[B]

Oh, that's the dirty thing about those bodybuilders back in the day is they couldn't admit they were on gear. So they were all just telling you they were taking this stuff and then they would be spokespeople for it. And it's. God, it was so deceptive.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It was so creepy. And you'd have to know someone at the gym who would, you know. Oh, I would just want to be like Lee Haney. Like, no, that's not how he got that way. Yeah, you got to take the real stuff. He's, this is what he's actually taking. And so many people didn't think that those bodybuilders were on like hardcore steroids.

[A]

Yeah, a lot of. Yeah. It's a deception at a mass scale for sure. I don't.

[B]

The whole sport. Yeah, the whole sport was just a complete like three card money game.

[A]

Yeah. It's crazy because now it's almost full circle because, you know, I was back then, you know, convict, at least at the time when I didn't know any better. Oh, you know, I guess this guy must be natural because he told me so or whatever. And it's like I'm skeptical but like. And you know, in hindsight it's absolutely ridiculous. But now a lot of bodybuilders are pretty forthcoming because it's more normal to be transparent and also not mislead people and, you know, unethically sell things and just reality check people on the, what it's going to take to be at that level. And is it the risk you want to, you know, subject yourself to? Because back in the day too, it was like you didn't know if you had good genetics or not when it came to certain dosage responses. So you would like always think the next guy's just taking more than you. And it would result in guys unspokenly thinking this guy must just be taking 5x the amount of shit I'm on. So I need to go to like 5 to 10 grams of total gear per week now. And you would just like, that's what led to so many early deaths in bodybuilding too.

[B]

So I think there's another thing, another factor is that the consequences of lying and getting caught now are huge. Because if you lose all credibility and people know that you're just a artist.

[A]

Yeah, that too.

[B]

And then they'll never trust you again. Like you have one chance to tell the truth forever.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the moment you violate that, you're always a liar.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's, that's a giant issue with, with whether it's actors or anybody.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, like all these guys who prep for roles and they're talking about it now like, oh, I took Anavar, I took this like Mickey Rourke did when he was talking about that movie the Wrestler, you know, I remember they were asking him on whatever talk show he was on, he's like, I fucking took everything. What are you talking about? I took that Guy was a pioneer.

[A]

Of interviews for that kind of stuff.

[B]

Well, he's a wild dude. He'll tell the truth. Yeah. But you have one chance to tell the truth forever.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You violate that and you're always going to be a bullshit artist.

[A]

Yeah. A guy who's pretty good about that now is Frank Grillo.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah, he was doing some like men's health thing and I have never seen men's health talk about steroids forthcomingly.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

Yeah. So they had him on a sit down interview and they were like, so, you know, what's it take to be just recent? Yeah. So last year, within the last year.

[B]

Right.

[A]

If not months ago.

[B]

Is this when he was talking about Anavar?

[A]

Yeah, and he talked about his TRT protocol and kind of like the realities of how impactful it actually is and improving his performance and how it makes him feel. And he was just like pretty non sugar coated about it.

[B]

Well, he's a good example because he was clean for a long time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like he had like very low testosterone because he was just going on willpower. He was really just, just working out on willpower. Action star lifts the lid on fitness recovery and the reality behind the scenes physiques. Frank IL60 gets real about Hollywood steroid use. They all do it well, that is a fact. But he was not on anything for a long time, like deep into his 50s and he got his testosterone. He's good friends of Brian Callan and you know, he got his testosterone taken. It was nothing. He had like zero. But he was just very disciplined and working out hard. But he didn't look like he was on gear. He just looked like he was ripped. It was like shredded. He was like in really good shape because he trained every day and he was doing a lot of boxing. So a lot of like heavy caloric expenditure. A lot of like long rounds, hitting the bag, hitting mitts, doing sparring. You know you're going to burn off so much calories and also you're going to like your, your metabolism is going to be like completely jacked.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So then for him to talk about, okay, now I got on this and then I got on that and this is the improvements. My sleep, my mood, everything got better. Because you know he's talking your ambition just met its match with Robin Hood. You play for the win. Not just on game day, every day. Channel that drive into your money Trade stocks and ETFs, options and futures all on one platform. You expect more from yourself, expect more from your money. Get started [e-mail]. your money, your money. Your move. This episode is brought to you by blinds dot com. Listen. Nothing ruins game day like sun blasting through your windows and glare on the big screen. That is where blinds.com comes in. Clutch. Here's the deal. Forget the old school way of buying window treatments. No pushy sales guy coming into your house. No mystery pricing. With blinds.com, you're in control. Upfront pricing, zero pressure. Totally on your terms. Browse on your own and go full DIY if that's your thing or if you're like me and you don't want to deal with that stuff. Boom. White glove service license vetted. Pros show up, install everything. You sit back, turn the game on. Done. Not sure where to start. They've got design experts who will hop on a free consultation with you whenever you want. You tell them your vibe. They'll help you nail it. And get this. This is huge. Every order is backed by their 100% satisfaction guarantee. That is how confident they are. And right now, blinds.com is running black Friday deals all month long. So head over to see what they've got going on today. And as always, you can still get 40% off your purchase when you use my code, ROGAN40 at checkout. That's blinds.com promo code. ROGAN40. Limited time offer rules and restrictions apply. About. It was like his testosterone when he got a test, it was super low.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. It's probably one of the few examples actually still to this day, though, of somebody being, like, really transparent. I actually saw the Rock talking about peptide use recently, which is kind of like a.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Dipping his toes in the water. Yeah, exactly. Lost a ton of weight, man.

[A]

Oh, dude. Yeah.

[B]

He's kind of crazy.

[A]

Yeah. And there's a lot of speculation about if it's like a health thing or what, but I don't. That's tough to know because he just had the role where he gained the most eyes he ever has, too.

[B]

Right, right. But that I got. That had to be terrible for him.

[A]

Oh, for sure. But it's like, would you have subjected yourself to that if you knew? I don't know if he would have known. But you would have think proactively he would know how close he is to kind of like. Like an issue being probably pretty close.

[B]

50 years old and getting up to £300.

[A]

Yeah. I just mean, I think he probably had more preventative screening before that role to know he could even subject himself to it without dying because it's like a pretty risky endeavor to go become the biggest you've ever been at that age. So to then downsize after, the theory is that he was literally about to die, essentially. So that's why he lost so much weight now. And I'm thinking, I think maybe he's just, like, trying to take, like, a health phase and kind of, like, come down and wait for a bit, and he'll probably, like, crank it back up.

[B]

Honestly, I think just. This is pure speculation. I haven't talked to him about this. I think based on what he tried to do with the Smashing Machine, I think he's trying to win an Oscar and trying to be a real actor because he was really good in that movie. Did you see it?

[A]

Not yet. Planning on it, though.

[B]

It's the best mixed martial arts movie ever. That's not saying a lot because they all suck, but it is the. It's the most accurate in terms of historical matches. Like, they. They had all the matches, like, with the Igor of tension, all these different people that he fought, that Mark Kerr actually fought. And it's just a good movie. It's a really good movie. Like. Like Emily Blunt plays his crazy girlfriend, and she's out of her fucking mind and to the point where, like, they're arguing right before he fights and you're getting anxiety watching, like, oh, Jesus Christ. It's just such a crazy, toxic relationship. It is Emily Blunt, right? I didn't that up, did I? Yeah, there it is. She's great in it, too. It's just a really good movie that I think would have gotten a lot more credit if it wasn't a mixed martial arts movie, because I think, you know, mixed martial arts movies, like, oh, it's some meathead, like rah rah Rah, you know?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Movie. But it's. It's a very good movie. And he is Mark Kerr.

[A]

Oh, he's so accurate.

[B]

So good. Yeah, he just. And not just the fighting stuff, man. The fighting stuff was great. But the acting stuff, like, he played that guy. And I know Mark. I was like, fuck, that's Mark. That's nuts. It was so good. It was a really good movie. So I. What I think he's doing is the same thing Bautista's doing. Dave Bautista What?

[A]

Inverse?

[B]

Well, Dave Bautita lost a lot of weight, too.

[A]

I. Yeah, but I guess, I mean, like, typically when actors are trying to get taken more seriously for more impactful, like, artistic, creative roles, it's almost like the Jack Meathead guy downsizes to do something more, you know, like, I don't know, artsy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But like this is getting as yoked as possible in order to be the art.

[B]

Right, right, right.

[A]

Whereas Batista is like fully downsized, I think now.

[B]

Yeah, but I think what I'm saying is now what he's doing now, I think he's probably trying to get different kinds of roles. Roles where like, I mean, if you've ever met him. No, he was like a superhero. He looks like a superhero. Like we, we worked out together. He came to the gym and I brought a bunch of comedians. We worked out and hung out. Like Tony Hinchcliffe was in his glory because you know, he loves pro wrestling. We're all in the sauna together hanging out with.

[A]

It was the first time he. He probably still doesn't know that he uses gear.

[B]

What's that?

[A]

He probably still doesn't know that he uses gear.

[B]

What do you mean?

[A]

Hinchcliffe is just like, oh, Hinchcliffe doesn't know that.

[B]

Oh, he knows he uses gear.

[A]

I still remember the episode where he was dumbfounded that you and Chaub thought that he was doing anything.

[B]

He is locked into being a 12 year old pro wrestling fan for the rest of his life. It's like a religious thing for him. It's like, you know, Mary was a virgin, she gave birth to Jesus. Like, I'm not kidding. Like he, he fucking loves pro wrestling so much that he is completely locked in.

[A]

He's a good example though of like a reasonably in the know guy who has friends in the space too, like you and you know, Shaub know about this stuff.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And even he was like surprised that you guys thought that at the time.

[B]

It is funny. Yeah, it is funny when you think about.

[A]

So imagine just the average person, they probably, you know.

[B]

Right. And also he's, you know, been very coy about it and saying actually not really coy, probably deceptive, just like strategically.

[A]

Perfect in his tact when it comes to avoiding it.

[B]

Yes, that's, that's the best way to describe it. Instead of saying I've never taken anti steroids, he's kind of like, look over there.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

But everybody who knows knows, you know, it's one of those things. It's like you look at them and you're like, there's no way. There's, there's no way. There's just no way.

[A]

I think I, I can't imagine talking about peptides and putting the feelers out there. Would not eventually transition to life. Like, you know, it's. It was recommended to me by my doctor to be on, you know, hormone support or whatever.

[B]

100.

[A]

Yeah. Like, I mean, you're kind of in that realm talking about it at this point.

[B]

You know, just come out and say it. I've always just come out and said it. I don't, I don't see any problem with it, but I don't have that kind of a reputation. Like, the problem with like being the pro wrestling thing is like your, your role model for the youth. And you know, you have to. Especially a guy like that, he's a giant movie star. You don't want to be telling everybody you're on gear.

[A]

He probably wasn't like a big chunk of his early career in.

[B]

His early career, right? Yeah, his early career. I don't think he was.

[A]

But I guess the problem is when you're like, when I really became successful is when I just sauce my face off.

[B]

Yeah, that's the thing. When he became a superhero. I mean, the first time I met him, he had cowboy boots on, so he's even taller. And he just looked like a brick. I'm like, they're not even a real person. This isn't a real person. This is a superhero.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I, yeah, it's crazy, dude. But I think he's still jacked. It's just proportionally to, relative to what he was, you know, it's kind of like anybody who used to be a bodybuilder or had significant amounts of size, even me, like, people in my videos are like, where you're, you know, you've lost everything. It's like, okay, I'm not like non existent anymore. I'm just like not a bodybuilder anymore. You know what I mean?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So if with him, it's like he's still yoked. He's like 2:30, 240 or whatever.

[B]

Yeah. The thing is like, super gear heads will always criticize. Oh, you look like a chick now. They get crazy. They said that about Bautista too, but he's like 240.

[A]

I think he's just gonna stop wearing like the weird tapered Gucci suits. It just makes him look a little bit more slender than. It's not complementary to his physique. He's still Jack too.

[B]

Yeah, but it does. It is complimentary if you didn't know what he used to look like.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

That's what's crazy. Like, you look at him, the guy looks fucking great.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Objectively, if you just look at it with no baseline, like probably a photo.

[B]

Of Dave Bautista now.

[A]

And he's also just getting older. Like there's got to be some level where you get acceptance of. Like, okay, you're allowed to downsize so you don't die.

[B]

Yeah, you could die. That's the thing. Like, you're. If you're pushing gear at that age. So there's. Yeah. Like, look at Batista on the right. You wouldn't say that's a small guy. You know, that's not a small guy. He's a big dude, but he's just slimmer now. He looks like. Like, if you saw an em. Like Alex Pereira. You don't think Alex Pereira is small?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, but you know, he's £240.

[A]

Yeah. If he was bodybuilding for a while and then decided to convert to, you.

[B]

Know, mma, that's the thing. But he also got like. That's what he looks like now. Like, that's not a small guy.

[A]

Yeah. And he's like, I don't know how.

[B]

Old, but I mean, that's 20, 25. He's got to be 50. 56. 56. So that's. He's shredded. He looks gigantic.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I think he actually did a role recently where he bulked up. Now that I think about it. He went to like. Like, it was like, fat weight, too, which is crazy.

[B]

Yeah, that was that. Glass Onion. Was that what it was called? There was some. Some movie that he. It was a really good movie. It was a movie where, like, some billionaire had everybody come to his island for some crazy party and there was a murder. What was that called? I don't know if that was Glass Onion. He was huge for Glass Onion. He got gigantic. He got big for something else, too, but I think he was, like, playing. I don't remember what his role was, but playing some former athlete or something along those lines.

[A]

Yeah, he was Housey. Dude.

[B]

It's weird when you get really big for a movie that sucks. You know what I mean? Or kill yourself for a movie that sucks.

[A]

Yeah. I hope it did well. Thanks. Jesus.

[B]

Christian Bale did that for the machinist. He almost died. 75 pounds he gained for knocking at the cabin. Oh, that's what. It is not. What was that movie? Show me what that looked like.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Screen knock at the cabin. What was that movie?

[A]

A horror movie on.

[B]

I did not watch it.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

A horror movie, huh?

[A]

Do you watch horror movies ever?

[B]

I love a good horror movie. He was 315. Jesus. So now he's 240. Yeah. It's much, much more sustainable. Yeah, but that's like a weird weight. That's like, like. What the. Did he eat to get that big? And again, he probably did that at, like, 52, which is dangerous. Yeah, you probably got sleep apnea. You're. You're all up. Yeah, yeah. Charlize Theron did that too, recently. She did it for Monster.

[A]

I know. No, again.

[B]

She did it again. Don't do that, Charlize. Oh, God, that's real. Yeah. What is it for?

[A]

I forget the movie. I just saw this photo the other day.

[B]

I think some women, they're probably like a lady like her. They're probably like Tully. I don't know what that is.

[A]

Might not be new. I just saw.

[B]

That's such a flex when you're a hot lady to get fat and gross. And like, when she did Monster, she shaved her eyebrows off.

[A]

Did you see the Sydney Sweeney? Like, boxing?

[B]

I didn't see that.

[A]

Not that she got fat and gross, but, like, she gained some weight.

[B]

Did she?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That movie got zero attention. The Christy Martin movie.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Because it was like, three decades past when anybody gave a. You know what I mean?

[A]

I. I at least got the impression I haven't watched it, so I could be way off base, that it was kind of like one of those artistic. Kind of like, probably look at my versatility in roles kind of thing.

[B]

Yeah. In that movie, did she gain weight they might have put her in?

[A]

Well, they said she gained, like 30 pounds of muscle or something, which is like the typical headline nonsense.

[B]

Yeah. Horseshit.

[A]

Yeah. But she definitely, like, you know, took it seriously and gained the weight that she needed to. To look, whatever the role was for sure.

[B]

That's such a weird, weird thing. The. The acting world. You have to change your. Like, Robert De Niro was the first guy to do it for Raging Bull.

[A]

You remember Tom Cruise in Tropic Thunder?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. But that was a fat suit.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, because they. They made his forearms fat. They shaved his head. He was great in that movie. Oh, what a movie. That was the last bang before Woke. Yeah, that was the last movie that you could ever do like that before Woke up, kicked in and essentially ruined great comedies because you couldn't go too far. You can't do that anymore. You just get in trouble.

[A]

Yeah. It's like back then, if you were to ask, okay, you know, have a hit list of just, like, ready to laugh your ass off movies that are just, like, low effort. You don't have to think too much. You can just sit down and enjoy. There's a bunch of bangers from back then. But it's like nowadays I don't even know what to go to.

[B]

They don't happen anymore. Yeah, like the Farrelly brothers movies like Kingpin. Great movie. You know, there's so much something about Mary. There's so many of those, like outrageous, hysterical movies that it was funny. I asked Robert Downey Jr. I was like, I go, you couldn't do blackface in a movie today. He goes, oh, you could do it. But what would happen afterwards is the big deal. He got it in like, like, it's like the scene in a movie where the elevator door closes right before the monster gets to you. He got there just time and like it was perfect timing where he didn't suffer from it.

[A]

No. Yeah. It's crazy to see the Delta and just like, I don't even know what to watch right. On Netflix now.

[B]

Well, with comedies it's really fucking hard. It's really hard. The only thing that's really wild and free is stand up comedy. Like to. To do a comedy movie and just go full tropic thunder is almost impossible today. But if somebody did it, if somebody just self financed it, oh my God, it would fucking kill. Who'd make so much money and then would open up the floodgates. Because people still want that, you know, they still like, it's. It's not that you agree with everything these people are saying and doing. It's comedy. Like, I don't agree with John Wick killing everybody. You know what I mean? Like, but he's not really killing everybody. Like it's a movie and it used to be that you knew that when you went into these movies before, everybody was like looking for everything to potentially be offended by. Yeah, it's just like ruined everything.

[A]

What do you watch now?

[B]

I don't watch comedies anymore.

[A]

But like, just in general, do you have any, like, kind of just like low barrier, just I sit down and turn my brain off.

[B]

Oh, there's a lot of great stuff. You know what I watched last night, Jamie, you recommended Pluribus. Is that what it's called? I only watched the first episode, but.

[A]

Holy, what a weird show, right?

[B]

Holy. Is it good up your alley? Holy. Is it good?

[A]

Good.

[B]

It's a new Apple show and I don't want to give away too much, but it, it has something to do with aliens. And aliens send a transmission to Earth and there's this like this insane impact on society, but it's like total left field movie. You don't see it coming. It's crazy or not. Movies, television show. And again, I Like, Jamie, I've only seen the first episode, but it's great. It's like, holy, he's giving you anxiety. It's so good.

[A]

Did you guys watch. What was that other Apple show? That was really good. It was like, in an office setting. I can't believe I'm forgetting severance. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Sevens was great. Especially the first episode or the first season. First season was great. After a while, they get a little weird because you're like, you're running this very strange game that you're doing. These people remember and don't remember and, like. And then you with the guy's head so he can remember. And then.

[A]

Yeah. What about Stranger Things and it. Those are two that my girlfriend has me watching right now.

[B]

I watched the first episode of Stranger Things last night as well. Or yesterday as well. That was great.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's. Dude, it's kind of crazy how much time is between these seasons now. It's like, you finish. I almost, like, can't. Oh. Don't want to commit to something because it's like, well, if I like it. Yeah, fuck you to me, you know, two years from now, three years for next season.

[B]

Game of Thrones. It's a great example of that.

[A]

Oh, dude. House of Dragon. Like, good luck seeing the next season, bro.

[B]

Well, not only that, like, unfortunately, with House of Dragons, it's got to follow Game of Thrones, which is, like, one of the best series of all time. And the characters just aren't as compelling for whatever reason. And so I don't know who the fuck anybody is. So the new season starts. I'm like, who's that?

[A]

Yeah. And maybe I just have a, like, monkey brain, but I watch him like, I didn't see a dragon the whole fucking episode. I feel. I feel ripped off.

[B]

Yeah. I need a dragon. I need that dragon. Dragon. To kill somebody, you need to burn somebody alive. Yeah, it's. There's a lot of great shows now, but. But again, it. You. You can. It's very hard to make a great comedy. You can make a great, like, mindless entertainment, like, fun show. Slow Horses. That's a great show. That's. Is that an Apple show? I believe it is. Yeah. That's another Apple show with Gary Oldman. It's a spy. MI M5 or MI. What is it? MI5. What do they call themselves? MI5. The numbers of the person. I think it's whatever.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

Whatever it is, it's a spy show. British spy show. That's a really good show. Yeah, I mean, there's. There's a lot of great shows to watch. Like, there's. I think it's probably the best time ever for content. If you just want to sit and be entertained. It's probably the best time ever. Because of screen streaming. Because streaming instead of, you know, one episode, you're watching a show and it takes place over an hour and then the next episode is totally different. A totally different subject line, different story. No, it's like the thing you get locked into these characters like Sopranos, I think was like the first one to really do that excellently and drag it out over many, many seasons where you have this running storyline.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, it's. I'm kind of just like, tuned out of TV at this point. I just watch what my girlfriend wants to watch and Stranger Things and it is the thing right now.

[B]

Yeah, I watched the new IT show. Yeah, I watched the first episode of that, too. That looks great.

[A]

It's like, oddly overlapping with the Stranger Things. I feel like I'm kind of watching the same show. Kind of like, obviously totally different overall stories, but, like, you know, you have kids and these kind of like an evil Things and. Yeah, I don't like, wreck an episode, but they mention it. Not specifically it, but a story about like an extraterrestrial evil being. Called it in a stranger episode. Stranger Things episode. I'm like, this is a weird reference for these being at the same time right now.

[B]

Yeah, well, they probably didn't plan that out, right.

[A]

Yeah, I don't. I don't know, man.

[B]

What is it called? Welcome to Derry. Is that what it's called? Yeah, the new one. But it's good. That's good too.

[A]

The release date scheduling makes absolutely no sense for Stranger Things too. It's like in batches, and the next batch is coming out on Christmas and.

[B]

Then the final one is New Year's.

[A]

It's like the exact times you, like, probably can't. Can't bang out all the episodes or like.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You're gonna have to force your family to sit there with you.

[B]

What's that?

[A]

High school kids can.

[B]

Yeah, high school kids can. Vacations. Well, I think Stranger Things is so big, they could make it so you can only watch it at 3 o' clock in the morning and it would still get 30 million views.

[A]

But, like, just such a weird choice. I don't know.

[B]

Well, it's just weird that it takes so long to make one of those damn things that you have to wait three years in between seasons and then you have these Kids. Kids that are playing 15 year olds now, they're 30.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's kind of weird.

[A]

You can tell some of them. It's like, how do we make you look as young as possible?

[B]

Yeah. You give them goofy haircuts and.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then there's also, like, spoiler alert. There's some computer generated imaging, so they're using some sort of an AI program to make scenes with the kids when they were young.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you kind of can tell, but you kind of can't tell. It's like, really good.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Nowadays it's like you feel like you just AI generate the whole thing, but.

[B]

Yeah. Well, it's getting close. You know, it's getting to the point where, you know, there's no excuse for waiting three years because you could have AI generate scripts and do it in an hour.

[A]

What about F1? You guys following it at all right now?

[B]

The show or the actual.

[A]

Actual racing?

[B]

I went to the F1. That was in Austin. It was amazing.

[A]

This year. Yeah. Okay.

[B]

It's awesome.

[A]

Awesome for. I think right now, it's the first time in the last 15 years they've had three drivers coming down to the final race to win the championship between them. And the final race is this weekend.

[B]

Oh, really?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like, where is it?

[A]

I think it's in. Is it in Abu Dhabi? I don't know. That might have been the race that just happened, but it was nuts, dude. It's because right now you had McLaren, who was like a shoe in to have. Have their main driver, or at least the guy who is in the lead, take it. But they're refusing to favor one over the other, which is a typical strategy for whoever's in the lead. You'll have the other one kind of like block people for them to make sure they win the driver's championship.

[B]

They're refusing to do that.

[A]

Yeah. They're, like, making sure they can have equal opportunities to win. But the net result might now be none of them win and a guy from Red Bull takes the thing.

[B]

Oh, that's crazy. Is it because the drivers aren't willing.

[A]

To do that, I guess. But also just lack of enforcement from the pit boss, like, team guy, who's, like, supposed to be enforcing team principles and whatnot.

[B]

It is kind of funky that that's how you win. You have someone. It's a team game.

[A]

I mean, like, there's a. There's team generated points between the two drivers, which can result in the, like, team championship. But the thing that most people actually care about is who's the best driver in the world.

[B]

Right?

[A]

And that will be coming down to one person. Even if it's a guy from a team that won the thing, they're still competing against each other. And sometimes they can get pretty reckless where they're, you know, one is not willing to compromise and he'll like blow the whole thing up to make sure that he has the best opportunity. Understandably. But it's also like you guys are getting paid tens of millions of dollars. Maybe you should listen to your fucking guy who's telling you what to do.

[B]

This is an ad for better help. The holidays come with a lot of traditions. Gathering with family, cooking those once a year recipes, and leaning into the little ritual that bring everyone together. That's something I always look forward to. But there's another tradition I think we should all start doing during the holidays and that's taking some time for ourselves this season. You do so many things for the other people in your life. You plan get togethers around everyone's schedule. You spend hours picking out the right gifts and cooking the right food. But you also deserve just as much attention, otherwise you'll burn yourself out. So do yourself a favor and take some me time. Go on a hunting trip. Have a quiet night with a book, maybe even schedule a session with a therapist. Therapy is an extremely effective way to make sure you're focusing on what you need. And BetterHelp can easily set you up. They have access to a wide network of fully qualified therapists and they do a lot of the work for you. Even if that first match isn't a good fit, you can easily switch to another therapist this December, Start a new tradition by taking care of you. Our listeners get 10% [e-mail] JRE that's better. H E L P.com JRE yeah, I get it. But then again, if you're on another team, you're like, well, this is kind of bullshit because this guy didn't really win the race. He won the race because his friends blocked everybody.

[A]

Yeah, fair enough. But I mean like part of it is kind of like that. That's like part of the strategy.

[B]

Oh, I get it, I get it. But maybe we should abandon that strategy because if, if, if it is a race.

[A]

Yeah, I guess it's just problematic because it's so bandwidth intensive too to manage the two drivers that if they're equally trying to win and only one is more likely to. What may very well happen on this weekend is they both, both don't win.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

Yeah, So I got a tour of.

[B]

The McLaren pit last year, and they. They showed me, like, all the different technology that's involved, and they gave me a. Like a rundown of how much engineering is involved in these things and explained everything. It's crazy. They're all just trying to shave tenths of seconds out of turns, and then it all accumulates over the course of the race.

[A]

Yeah, it's like, pretty psychotic. When you look at what the differential is and kind of like what really separates these guys, it's often just like, minuscule amounts and just like the littlest mistake, you know?

[B]

What are those guys on? That's what I want to know. Do they test them?

[A]

They are tested, but not to the rigor of like an Olympic.

[B]

Do they test them for Gorilla Mind?

[A]

I'm sure they're probably using it.

[B]

This is probably a good thing for.

[A]

Them to do, probably for something that's not banned. Yeah, but is any of this stuff.

[B]

Banned, do you think, in 21?

[A]

None of it. This is all, like, very straight edge, like, really tried and true nootropics that work through kind of like endogenous pathways or things that otherwise backfill neurotransmitters. Similar to, like, the creatine deficiency that we talked about. If you backfill it and you can otherwise, you know, have a readily available source of phosphocreatine to offset ATP deficits. It's L tyrosine, stuff like that. Similar just in regards to dopamine, for example.

[B]

An hour in and I feel it. It's legit. Yeah, it's very legit. And again, it's very delicious. So congratulations on that.

[A]

Oh, thank you.

[B]

Those guys lose a ton of weight, too, during those races.

[A]

Oh, dude, so much water loss.

[B]

Yeah. Because you're fucking hot as shit in those suits. So you don't burn alive if you crash.

[A]

Yeah. So new different strategies like hyper hydration, using things like liquid glycerol, could be impactful to retain more water.

[B]

Do they wear a diaper paper?

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

But how long is the race?

[A]

It could be. It kind of. I think it depends, but it's like upwards of an hour, an hour and a half. So.

[B]

Yeah, just piss yourself.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Sit in your own pee for an hour and a half. Yeah, I kind of. You would have to. Yeah, I would imagine with that kind of money on the line. Just let it go, baby.

[A]

Yeah. I don't even know if you'd have to, though. If you're just, like, perspiring like a. You Become a drench, right? Yeah. And they've lost like.

[B]

That's a good point.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But sometimes in the. In the sauna, I have to pee.

[A]

Oh, yeah?

[B]

Yeah. Sometimes I'm like 15 minutes into a sauna session. I'm like, God damn it. I can't hold it. So I gotta open the door and go out and piss outside, then climb back in again.

[A]

Have you ever tried glycerol for hyper hydration?

[B]

No. What is that?

[A]

It's just like straight up glycerol. It's like a sugar, but it also has a hyper hydrating effect that you can hold upwards of an extra pound of body water if you have it as a supplement. So some endurance athletes will use it before events in order to retain more water in a way that is not. It enhances like thermoregulation, your ability to tolerate stress. You don't lose as much, you don't dehydrate as fast. There's a lot of upsides for its kind of like unique application. Maybe even avoiding pissing at nighttime could be. Really potentially. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, that would help because I always have to pee. Yeah. One thing that st that helps me is sauna before bed, though. Sauna before bed. I can generally sleep through the night.

[A]

Oh, yeah?

[B]

Yeah. So I'll do like a session about an hour before I go to sleep and no water after that. Oh, yeah, that usually does it.

[A]

Yeah. If you do a water cut off, that's like pretty regimented. It's probably the best overall strategy as.

[B]

Long as you make sure you hydrate in the morning. So I'm pretty diligent about that, that first step in the morning. Amino acids with water, I do that 99 of the time. Like first thing before coffee, before anything.

[A]

Can you put electrolytes in it?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I take Gary Breaker stuff. It's called perfect aminos, Aminos and electrolytes. I get that in first thing in the morning, just, you know, get it out of the way. And I didn't used to for the longest time. I would just hit the gym right away and just drink water when I was in there. There. But I feel a difference.

[A]

What about. I thought step one was cold plunge.

[B]

Yeah, it depends. I haven't cold plunged in the last three weeks because I got some stem cells and I'm still saunaing. So it seems like there's a lot of controversy about this in terms of, like, what you should and shouldn't do. Post stem cell injection. I have a very minor Achilles tear. When I was elk hunting In September, I twisted my ankle pretty bad and I didn't think anything of it. I stopped limping after like 15 or 20 minutes and I was like, I think I'm okay. And I have. And I was wearing, at the time, I was wearing very light boots. They're like, you know, just a real light boot that you wouldn't do for heavy mountain trekking. And we did some, some steep elevation. And then the real problem is going down and you're, you know when you're going down like several thousand feet over the course of like an hour. Yeah, it's brutal. And I, I twisted one of my ankles. And then the next day I put on a much higher, more rigid boot with great ankle support and I was fine for the rest of the trip.

[A]

But then that's the worst, man. You just gotta like stare at the ground the entire time you're walking because the littlest off step, you just roll your ankle or not only that, you go down. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

You know, you could die. It's. We were in pretty steep country in Utah, but interestingly, I didn't notice anything was wrong until I'd get into a push up position, which is weird. So when, you know, I do 100 push ups every morning. 100 push ups, 100 body weight squats, that's my warm up before I do anything. And so when I got into like a high push up position with like my butt up in the air, it's, it's a lot of stretching on the Achilles. And my left Achilles was killing me, like sharp pain. I was like, fuck, this hurts. And I thought maybe I, maybe it needs to stretch out. So I did some like, Jump rope doesn't bother me. Jump rope doesn't bother me. Nothing else bothers me. But that position bothered me and it was bothering me for like five weeks. And I was like, all right, I got to get this looked at because it seems like it might be getting worse every time I do that. And so I got a, I got it scanned and there's a minor tear in my Achilles. And Achilles tears are a fucking nightmare. You know, if you, you blow out your Achilles, that's a nightmare. It's a long rehabilitation process.

[A]

Blood flow to the area, especially at 58.

[B]

Yeah, it's a fucking, it's, that's a long recovery. I was like, I'm looking at a year before I could do everything again. Then you lose all your gains, all your cardio, everything. You can't move right. You're fucked. So I got a stem cell shot in There. And, and there's a lot of debate about when you should be able to cold plunge after stem cells. And a lot of the literature seems to say three months. It doesn't seem to think sauna. There's more indication that sauna is probably therapeutically beneficial for the stem cells because the idea is that these stem cells are still in the area trying to heal the tissue. When you cold plunge, you kill them. But when you're doing sauna, you're increasing blood flow and it might help them. So what they said is like, I wouldn't do anything for a couple weeks. Nothing. And then after that, just sauna for a while. Yeah. So I haven't done a cold plunge in over a month.

[A]

Seems excessive.

[B]

Not that I'm scared to go back in.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I was so used to it.

[A]

Oh, you got to get over the hurdle again.

[B]

I'm so scared. Every time I do it, I almost don't do it. Every time I do it, I almost don't do it. So, like, for the past month, it's just been get up and just work out and then sauna afterwards.

[A]

What's the rehab stack? Is it any different than what you were already doing?

[B]

Or is it kind of like BBC 157TB 500. That's it. It's definitely improved.

[A]

BBC local in the.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Achilles.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, right there.

[A]

Or you just pinch the sub Q area and kind of like.

[B]

Okay, I shove it right in there. There. I think local is the way to go. I've done it subcutaneously, like in the side and love handles. It doesn't have the same effect.

[A]

Yeah. If you can get it to the area, it's like, why not?

[B]

You know? Yeah. I think, I think BPC157 locally is the way to go, but it's definitely getting a lot better. It doesn't. Doesn't hurt at all anymore.

[A]

I'm just.

[B]

I'm just making sure it fully heals up.

[A]

Yeah. Interesting note on kind of like these, the hormone support stuff. This past month, the FDA actually removed the most of the black box warnings off of women's hrt.

[B]

Yes. Yes.

[A]

Pretty amazing.

[B]

Yeah. Really amazing. Because so many women were lied to for so long. They were told that there's all these negative effects of supplementing your hormones. But my God, how many people just said lost quality of life for nothing, for no science at all. It's just complete horeshit. But there's so much bad science out there, man. Like, it's. It's a real problem. It's hot as in here. There's so much bad science out there.

[A]

Man, it almost gets to a point where you almost have to look at things through the lens of does this sound like nonsense?

[B]

Yeah, well, and then where do you go, like, who do you trust? You know, unless you. You're well versed in who the respectable online people are. Yeah.

[A]

Like, you might see test, you know, however many studies that say fill in the blank exotic compound is like totally ineffective. And it's like, who was it tested on, for how long, what was the dosage? You know, and like, it might be a completely useless interpretation for your specific nuance scenario. And if you hear hordes of anecdotes from everyone in your circle you trust who actually knows what they're talking about, has been in the trenches, knows their body well, you can't, you can't really ignore that.

[B]

What was the narrative about female hormones? And why did they, why did they do that for so long? Do you know?

[A]

So I think it was in the 90s, the Women's Health Initiative were assessing the viability and safety profile of hormone replacement therapy. And I might butcher this a little bit, but in general, the, you know, overall context is relatively accurate, I'm sure. And it was like of a thousand women or something that they tested hrt. When I say hrt, I put it and air quotes because like estrogen, not even like human bioidentical estrogen. It was like equine horse piss derived estrogens.

[B]

Horse piss?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

For real?

[A]

Yeah. So it was like literally the most synthetic, you know, animal derived shitty estrogen that is not bioidentical at all. And also a synthetic progestin that is not bioidentical to progesterone. It's just like a progesterone, an analog essentially that fulfills activity at the receptor, but is otherwise like, you know, the equivalent of putting you on like a microdose of nandrolone or a micro dose of, you know, fill in the blank, progestin derived compound or 19 nor derived compound that facilitates progestogenic activity but just is not progesterone. So it's like to try and say, you know, this horse piss derived estrogen formula and the synthetic progestin we apply to these women is the equivalent of you having been on what you would otherwise produce as a young, healthy, vibrant woman. From a bioidentical estradiol and progesterone perspective, simply not accurate. But that's like essentially the comparison that they made and, you know, presented it as such and the Result was a relative risk increase of breast cancer incidence, I believe to the tune of like one of a thousand women.

[B]

Women.

[A]

And the absolute number was like three of a thousand in the placebo arm had breast cancer incidents. And then I think four out of a thousand had breast cancer. So then the media ran with a 26% increase in risk.

[B]

And like everybody got panicky.

[A]

Yeah, and like, I might be misinterpreting one or two variables, but like high level, that's essentially what it was. And it caused mass hysteria and panic and basically dictated the facilitation of black box warnings being put on hormone therapy. So the most aggressive FDA warning that shows basically any clinician that's looking at it or anybody who's going to like take the risk of using it, this is the most dangerous drug you could use with the highest risk of like lethal side effect potential. And then on top of that, it just like wasn't representative of what is actual replacement therapy with what is the hormone you would be producing naturally. So for years, you know, we went thinking, oh, it's going to cause clotting issues, it's going to cause cancer, it's going to do this, it's going to do that. And only in the most nuanced edge case scenarios is it justified because, you know, that person just absolutely has a quality of life deterioration is so significant that it's worth it to take the risk to use hormone replacement therapy. And it's like now similar to some of the like, common sense interpretation of things like this doesn't make sense. Like look at all this literature showing the cardio protective effects, showing the neuroprotective effects, showing the bone support and integrity. Look at what you lose if you don't take these hormones. Like you are essentially giving yourself a worse quality of life inevitably and deterior, deteriorating your health unquestionably. Like with men, there is some semblance of residual activity you can maintain. And some men maintain vibrant, you know, reasonable testosterone production till old age. But with women, it's kind of like.

[B]

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[A]

Like right when the lights shut off. Yeah.

[B]

Like drops off a cliff.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's interesting how the initial narratives get stuck in the public zeitgeist forever. Like, the initial narrative for testosterone replacement was you can get testicular cancer, prostate cancer. And it was just so many people, like, I don't want to mess around with testosterone replacement because I could get cancer. And then Brigham Bueller explained that study.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And explained the real results of that study. And it's like it didn't show that anybody got prostate cancer from it. It's just not true.

[A]

Yeah. And it's like even the mechanism by which they argue it would cause it doesn't even make mechanistic sense because it's like the only way you're going to increase the prostate growth is via bringing. And it's like, of course, when you use hormones that are androgens, like, you're going to grow tissues that they're exposed to. But it doesn't mean it's a bad thing necessarily. And if you're a hypogonadal male who has low T and it goes up to just the threshold of barely acceptable, that's where the growth essentially stops. And if you go beyond that into like medium normal, high normal, even super physiologic territory, your prostate doesn't linearly grow in exposure. Otherwise bodybuilders would have massive prostate prostates like busting out of their bodies.

[B]

Giant dicks too.

[A]

We wish didn't have it.

[B]

Well, how come it grows enlarged clitorises in women?

[A]

Because the physiology is essentially interchangeable in that you could have gone in any direction dependent on your exposure to these hormones. So. Right. It's not. Yeah. So if, if a man exposes himself to significant amounts of estrogen and has no. Has hormone deprivation, there are some irreversible anatomical changes because they've already like matured. That will not go away. But like with women, it's like the inverse. And you could otherwise get closer to that like extreme scenario where you're. Once your voice box gets to a certain like, anatomical development, you can't necessarily go back to your high pitched, you know.

[B]

Yeah, that's a problem with detransitioners. They keep that voice forever. And the real problem is it never, never even becomes a man voice. It just becomes weird. You know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Trans men never develop a voice like, you know, Isaac Hayes.

[A]

Yeah, that's one of the. One of the tough things with HRT too is like, as much as I think it's so amazing that it's being educated about and there's widespread attention being brought to the importance of it. There's also the cowboy docs who almost go to the hyper extreme of optimization and are putting women on aggressive dosages of testosterone saying, you've been lied to, you know, this is actually what you need to feel good. And for a woman who's been, you know, asexual for years and feels, you know, has no energy and they are told this guy is, you know, the cutting edge doc who everyone sees, they will probably trust his guidance. And as early as before I started Marek Health, which is my company, my mom was getting hormone therapy guidance from a doc who was relatively well respected. And the dose he put her on of testosterone was so aggressive that her voice was changing within weeks. And I had to like cut the cord on and I was like, what the hell is this? And her testosterone levels were like in the like three hundreds plus. Whoa.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So like you're essentially low, low, normal, healthy male territory. Not like actually, but like on a clinical reference range and absolutely potential for masculinization.

[B]

Yeah. And also horny as potentially.

[A]

Yeah, but it's like you didn't need to go there probably to get to horny as fuck.

[B]

My wife has a friend who got on it and she's a British lady and she had a very funny. She goes, his stuff makes me feel like a bloke. She goes, I'm horny like a bloke. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And testosterone can be helpful in women for sure. And it's an overlooked booked hormone that is absolutely important in women just the same as it is in men. It's just like you gotta kind of know what you're getting yourself into too when it comes to like what is reasonable for a doctor to tell you you need and at what like concentrations you should expect, you know, blood level targets to be. Because if you just go in blind, you might end up with the most exotic, you know, like Beverly Hills doc who thinks you should be on like the craziest cocktail ever because he knows you're gonna feel it it right and respond really, really well immediately. But then also might just like you up permanently.

[B]

Well, this is also the problem with transitioners. When, when you're becoming a trans man, right. The initial impact is you alleviation of anxiety and euphoria. You start feeling great because that's what testosterone does for you. It doesn't mean you're supposed to have that. Your body's going, what the fuck is this? And now you're, you know, essentially you're. You're changing the whole cocktail of your body and you're, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you're gonna give permanent changes that if you make a decision when you're 14, 15 years old, they put you on this stuff. Those detransitioners are some of the saddest stories, man. Because they've become sterile, they'll never have children and you know, and they lose their tits because they go to a doctor that thinks you should have your mammary glands chopped off when you're 15. As as far we're in the weirdest of times with all this stuff because it's like what gets accepted and not accepted and what, you know, what become again. Like we were talking about the zeitgeist, when, when a thought gets out there and then it's very difficult to move away from that. It's like, oh, you're affirming your true self. Like really with, with synthetic hormones that didn't exist in your body before. That's. That's your true self. Yeah. Are you sure? It sounds like this might be a social contagion that is like sweeping through the land and one of the things that's really interesting is the, the drop off of kids identifying as trans is it coincides directly with Elon buying Twitter.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

Yeah. Like immediately when you. Because he used to not be able to talk about it, you still literally, if you, if you dead, name someone from Twitter. Meaning, like if you changed your name to Dominique and I called you Derek Work, I could get banned from Twitter for life forever just by using your old name. Like, if I called Bruce Caitlyn Jenner Bruce, I would get banned from Twitter for life.

[A]

Damn.

[B]

Because nuts.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, but it's like this very bizarre social contagion, this weird mind virus that went through the whole country and everybody just signed up for it. Like, and no one wanted to be a bigot. So I go, I don't want to be a bigot.

[A]

Yeah. I think as much as I think think access to drugs is super. Like, you should have the full liberty to do whatever you want. You should. That's where the importance of educating yourself is so critical because you really don't know what you're subjecting yourself to. If you have an immature brain too. You have not even had full like, frontal lobe development to try and think you're going to make a sound decision with how you're going to impact your lifelong physiology. It's like probably you can't even have a tattoo.

[B]

Tattoo. It's not even legal to get a tattoo. And you get your penis removed. It's crazy. It's crazy. Oh, they know. Some. Some people know as early as three. I've had conversations with people on this podcast. I have friends that have trans kids and they knew right away, like, are you sure they didn't have a insane mother and a gay child? Because that might be what was going on.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And now this gay child will never have an orgasm again because you've convinced them they're not a gay child that they're a woman and which is in fact completely homophobic.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Interesting extreme of the scenario, but maybe on the opposite is guys who are in their, in adolescence who are so hyper educated that they use the knowledge to biohack their developments into becoming as maximally tall and like infrastructurally sound as adults as possible.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

And that's a really interesting predicament because it's like any like, reasonably ethical doctor will be like, there's no way I'm touching that, like, case of any overseeing anybody's care who's doing that kind of thing.

[B]

I was watching a podcast about this where this Guy was talking about his son, and he's short, and his son is short. And his son's friends were also short. And their parents got the kid on growth when they were. And they grew, like, a lot bigger than the parents.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which is Alexander Carell. Do you know Corellin's story? They called him the Experiment. He's the freakiest wrestler that has ever.

[A]

I know who it is, but I didn't know that specifically. It was an adolescence that he was subjected.

[B]

Well, this is speculation on my part. Have you seen my photo that I have out in the gym? It's the photo that I put up to remind myself of what a I really am.

[A]

Is that when he's, like, about the hoisting that?

[B]

Got that picture, that one?

[A]

Yeah. Famous one.

[B]

That guy was 300 pounds and moved like a cat. Like, unbelievably mobile and flexible and had, like, an insane record. Yeah, I think it was like, 280 and 1 or 280 and 2. Like, insane. Like one of the most dominant wrestlers of all time. But there's. They call him. In Russia, they would call him the Experiment.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you see his parents. His parents, like, five, five, five, seven, like, small people, and he's this behemoth of a person. And of course, the Soviet doping program is legendary. The movie Icarus highlights that, you know, but everybody knew about that. The eastern block weightlifters, the females, they set records that were never broken again. These women completely became men. You know, like, there's. There's a lot of evidence that they were doing that to their athletes. The fact that they wouldn't do it to their most dominant wrestler in the history of the fucking sport, and the guy who was the absolute, absolute, biggest freak in the history of wrestling, there was nobody like that guy.

[A]

Yeah. We should talk about some of those Russian drugs. I heard you bring up trimetazidine with somebody the other day. But before that. Have you ever heard of the Lionel Messi story?

[B]

No.

[A]

Okay. So did you know that he was destined to be a dwarf if he didn't get on huge amounts of growth hormone?

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah. So he got supplied with pharmaceutical growth hormone by the team that was trying to get him to basically be with them.

[B]

Well, he's a small guy as it is. Right?

[A]

Yeah. So he grew to what is otherwise an acceptable adult height, but he otherwise was destined to be literally a dwarf, whatever the socially acceptable term is.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah. So they either paid for his pharmaceutical growth hormone and admitted, like, got it for him, paid for it, made sure he was taking it or he didn't become the greatest is some argue, you know, the football player of all time.

[B]

Well, it's also, you have to take into consideration, like, how much of effect did that have on his performance? I mean, that guy can do things that no one else can do.

[A]

Well, he definitely wouldn't have grown to the height he is.

[B]

And it's not just the height, it's the. The explosive movement, his ability to change direction, like, better than anybody.

[A]

The infrastructure is obviously supporting of it. I don't necessarily know. Yeah, it would be impossible to, like, really quantify that. There's no, like, you know, a B test of it, right? Yeah. Right.

[B]

There's no placebo controlled trial, but, you.

[A]

Know, if he didn't do it, he would not be even playing. Wow.

[B]

I did not know that.

[A]

Yeah. It's probably one of the most overlooked but wild cases of a professional athlete who, like, needed to go, like, full bore to the tits.

[B]

How old was he when they did that to him?

[A]

A young teen, if not a child.

[B]

Seeing 11 years old.

[A]

Yeah. Wow. Yeah. It was like, you either take this at the dose that is going to, like, push you to, you know, maximal IGF1 output territory and we get you to as high of maturation as possible, or you're not going to be a professional player.

[B]

How tall is Messi now? Five, seven. Wow.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's crazy. You know I told you the old Romero story, right?

[A]

Right. Probably.

[B]

Yo, Romero is the biggest athletic freak I've ever seen in my life. And I've seen a lot of athletic freaks like Yoel Romero. When he, I believe it was in Australia, he was fighting. And after the fight goes to a doctor to get checked up. He had a fractured orbital. He had a, you know, rough fight. The doctor examines him and then says to the ufc, where did you get this guy?

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

I tell you this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they go, hey, he's great, right? He goes, no, no. His tendons and his eyes are three times the size of a normal person. They said his orbital bone is already healing.

[A]

Crazy.

[B]

Like, what do they do to him? Because he was on the Cuban Olympic program.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and the way he talks about it, like, the program was like, so regimented. In fact, they had tiers of athletes, and the. The highest tier ate three times a day. The tier below that, eight, two times a day. So that motivated you literally to get more food.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

To compete. And you're competing with these guys that their entire life is wrestling. That is everything. And it literally can feed their family. It's A matter of whether or not their family gets food, whether it changes your social status. And he goes, and because of that, you become a machine. That's how you saying it. I could do a good yol. You become a. My chin. And he's the biggest freak of all time. In fact, everybody who fights him says, hitting him hurts. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What Robert Whitaker said is like hitting metal. He goes, dude, he's like. He hit the guy. He doesn't feel like a normal person. He goes, it's like you're hitting metal.

[A]

He's still competing, but in. Was it one.

[B]

Is it dirty boxing? His dirty boxing was his latest one he's doing. He's. He's almost 50. He's jacked as. Now he's a heavyweight, full six pack, almost 50 years old. Fucking gigantic. I mean, now he's got to be geared up. I mean, I would imagine because he's in these, like, fringe leagues that, you know, you'd think their drug test is a multiple choice. What do you want? I'm on Jesus. He had that famous speech, he was saying, don't forget about Jesus. Hey. Goes, don't forget Jesus. And everybody thought he was saying, no, gay Jesus is not gay.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

And so they thought he was homophobic. He's like, no, no, no, no, no, no. For gay Jesus. But he was saying, don't forget Jesus. Like, Jesus is important. And everybody's like, oh, my God. Yoel Romero used his platform to say homophobic things after a fight. Like, no, he can't speak English very well. You know, Know. And he's religious.

[A]

I feel, yeah, that guy, he. I always felt like if he just kind of like threw himself into the fire more, he could just like crush it.

[B]

The problem is cardio when you're carrying around that much weight. You know, first of all, wrestling, his wrestling was above and beyond anybody else.

[A]

But he was just like slug when he didn't need to.

[B]

Well, they get in love with knocking people out, first of all. And that guy's explosive capacity was. Was he knocked out Chris Weidman, one of the scariest flying knees I've ever seen in my life. It was a great fight up until the moment he put Chris Weidman into the shadow realm. But he hit him with this flying knee, just explode. He lulls you. So what is your.

[A]

Looks like he's tired or whatever.

[B]

Then he jumps on you. And his ability to close the distance is. So it's like. You think about wrestlers like, did you see Bo Nickels last knockout? He knocked out Adolfo Vieira with a head kick.

[A]

Dick. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

It was spectacular. But what Bo. Nick. Bo Nickel is an elite wrestler, like a top shelf blue chip wrestler. And one of the things that wrestlers have is this ability to close distance because they're, you know, they're on the outside and they could just shoot doubles. So that explosion naturally lends itself to closing the distance and striking, because, you know, it's the same kind of thing if you develop good striking. And Adolfo Vieira, who's, like, super jacked, but he's a Gi Jiu Jitsu guy. Gi Jiu Jitsu is all about strength and control, technique as well. But it's a tight game. It's not a game of, like, jumping, moving across distance quick. It's a game of their gripping each other. And then, you know, it's a lot about strength and it's a lot about technique, but it's not about closing distance. So Adolfo Vieira is, like, applauding, like, really super Jack guy. And Bo Nichols just lied on his feet, moving on the outside and just. Just closing distance, cracking them, getting out. And. And he hits him with this fucking bomb head kick and puts him to sleep. But it's that, that. That ability to close the distance. Nobody did that better than Yoel. Yoel was the best at that because he's just a unbelievable athlete. And with Izzy, he fought Ezreal Adesanya, and Izzy said, dude, I had to stay on the outside with that guy. I could not just go after him because the counters would come so fast.

[A]

He.

[B]

He. Yoel caught him with a big left hand early in the fight, and he was like, oh, well, fuck this. He's like, we're gonna make this a boring fight.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm just gonna win a decision on this motherfucker because it's just the consequences of being too close to him where he can do that. It's just you have to fight a technical fight with that guy. Stay on the outside, pick at him, move a lot. Don't set. Don't set your feet ever. Never be in a place where he can just, like. Because he can just launch on you and blast you.

[A]

Yeah. On the flip side of that, the leaping in the middleweight of Chimaev, ruthless to watch. That was, like, the most painful fight I've seen recently.

[B]

Oh, yeah. The trick is duplicity fight.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, that's just levels and levels above everyone else.

[A]

Just like closing distance even when you know it's about to come.

[B]

Can't stop. Yeah. Once he gets his hands on you. You're his. His. That. There's something about that. That kind of wrestle, wrestling from the Chechens and the Dagestanis, and maybe even him more than any of the other ones is. It's just so aggressive. And he chains things together so well. And if you're not training with guys like that, like, Shaub told me that he went to see Chimaev when Chimaev is in training camp for Drikus Duplicate. And he called me up, he goes, dude, listen to me. He goes like, shot was a top 10 UFC heavyweight. He's been around forever. You know, was in. He was in camp with George St. Pierre when George St. Pierre was in his prime. Nate Marquardt. Nate Marquardt was his prime. He's like, dude, I've never seen nothing like this. He goes, they were bringing in world class wrestlers. He's ragdolling them. He goes, he's a freak. He goes, he's going to drick us up. I go, really? He goes, dude, if he gets a hold of that guy, he's turned out to be 100 accurate.

[A]

Yeah, it was like the most obscene example I've seen.

[B]

His wrestling. It's obscene. That's a great way to put it. He said, his wrestling's obscene. And if you can't compete like this one thing that I said about Dricus after that fight, it was like, that gap is so wide, that's like jumping across the Grand Canyon. You're not going to make it. Like, you would have to start part. You'd have to get a time machine. Go back to the time when you're six and start wrestling in Dagestan. Like, you've. You've gotta, like, have those kind of skills to compete with that guy. Yeah, only an elite wrestler who can also strike is going to be able to with that guy. Unless he gets silly and decides to strike with. This episode is brought to you by Aura Frames. Look, I get it. This time of year, everything goes by so quickly, and the next thing you know, you got two days left to find the perfect gift. Well, let me tell you what you're not going to do do. You're not going to wait until the last minute panic, and then settle for gift cards. Instead, give them something thoughtful and personal. An Aura digital frame loaded with all their favorite pictures and videos. It comes with unlimited free storage, so you or anyone you know can upload as much as you want to it. All you need is the Aura app and a WI FI connection. Plus the frame can come preloaded like with last year's pic of you and your family all wearing matching Christmas pajamas. Us. The Aura frame is perfect for everyone. Your grandparents, your mom, your sister who lives across the country. Because the gift of togetherness beats out lame generic gift cards any day. For a limited time, save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com to get $35 off Aura's best selling Carver Matte frames named number one by wire cutter by using the promo code Rogan at checkout. That's a U R A frames and then promo code Rogan. This deal is exclusive to listeners and frames sell out fast, so order yours now to get it on time for the holidays. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. This episode is brought to you by Lifelock. Tis the season for identity theft. This time of year, most of us are checking off our holiday gift list. But guess what? Identity thieves have lists too. And your personal information might be on them. Protect your identity with Lifelock. Lifelock monitors hundreds of millions of data points every second and alerts you to threats you could miss by yourself. Even if you keep an eye on your bank and credit card statements. If your identity is stolen, your own US based restoration specialist will fix it, guaranteed or your money back. Plus, all plans are backed by the million dollar protection package. And you know that person in your life who is impossible to shop for. Maybe it's a grandparent or your mom or a close friend. Well, here's an idea. Give them the gift of peace of mind and get them Lifelock. The last thing you or anyone wants to do this holiday season is face drained accounts, fraudulent loans or other financial losses from identity theft all alone. Make this season about joy, not identity theft. With Lifelock, save up to 40% your first year here. Call 1-800-LIFELOCK and use the promo code JRE or go to lifelock.com jre for 40% off terms apply from when they KO them. Other than that, I just can't see anybody with that guy.

[A]

Yeah, I mean it's, I guess needs somebody stylistically to match up to. Really?

[B]

Bo Nickel. Yeah, but. But Bo has to grow as a fighter, you know, he has to. He has to grow as a fighter and he's doing that. I mean, he's a unbelievably dedicated and disciplined guy. And if anybody can do it, he can do it because he's got that elite wrestling that like if they had a wrestling match, it would be fantastic. But Chimaev is a much better striker right now. At least has Been up until this last fight with Viera, which was a huge knockout. But Viera was kind of a standing target for. For Bo.

[A]

What did you think of the Usman? Positive test result. Kind of interesting.

[B]

Oh, the bigger Usman?

[A]

Yeah, his older brother.

[B]

Yeah, Duh. That's a duh. He's huge.

[A]

I'm. Yeah, I mean, it's unfortunate, you know.

[B]

Because the heavyweight division is so devoid of talent.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Gable Stevenson is the guy. Yeah, that's the guy. That's the guy. He's not even in the UFC yet. I mean, that Olympic gold medalist freak athlete, 250 pounds, moves like a cat. That. That's the guy that he's every. I sent a text message to Dana White. I sent him a video of Gable's last fight. I said, everyone's. Everyone's. When this guy comes out, he KO'd this guy with a left hand. He KO'd this guy with a left hand and then took him down as he was knocked out. Watch this knockout because it's so crazy, the speed that this guy has. First of all, really good striking already. And he's only been striking for like a year here. But watch when he kos this guy. He hits him with a punch. Boom. And then takes him down. Jesus, dude, everyone's. And then just. I mean, that's just nuts, man. That kind of speed is nuts for a heavyweight. Yeah, look at that left hook. Boom. Takes him down. Smash.

[A]

And then that's like a video game combo.

[B]

Exactly. And he can do backflips. And when he fought in dirty boxing, he knocks the guy out and then he leaps over the top rope and lands on. On the ape apron. Just leaps over the top rope with like, effortless freak. Just a real freak. And again, just like, watch this KO when he kos this guy. Well, first of all, this guy has no business being in there with him. But this is just boxing. This is what they call dirty boxing. Boom. So you could ground and pound guys.

[A]

So is this like the modern day D.C. sort of.

[B]

Oh, he's. He's maybe even better and bigger. A lot bigger. So you see how he jumped over that rope. Watch that again.

[A]

Super athletic, but, like, doesn't. Kind of unassuming?

[B]

Exactly. Well, I mean, not really unassuming. He's a fucking house, man. He just doesn't have higher body fat. Yeah, but look how he jumped over that rope.

[A]

Oh, yeah. When you see that, of course.

[B]

Watch it. Show that again.

[A]

Yeah, that was insane.

[B]

Look how the effortless. Look at. Just effortless leaps over that fucking that's like five feet. He just jumps over like it's nothing.

[A]

And after fighting.

[B]

After fighting, but literally with no effort, just hops over it like it didn't exist. Lands perfectly. He's a freak, man.

[A]

And.

[B]

And. And he's training with Jon Jones, and, you know, he's training with, like, some of the best fighters, and he's training, and he's trying to fight every month. He's trying to get as much experience as he can before he gets into the ufc. And he's coming, and everybody's in trouble.

[A]

How old is he?

[B]

25.

[A]

Oh, geez.

[B]

They're all. Yeah, everyone's. I mean, everyone is, because there's no other than John. There's no one that can wrestle with that guy in that sport. And the thing about a guy who could wrestle like that is if he can strike like that. The problem with wrestling is you're always worried about the takedown, so that opens you up to strikes because you're always like, every feint, you're thinking he's going to shoot for your legs, but then, boom, he catches you with a left hook. And the speed that guy has, it's like a lethal combination of athleticism, speed, power, size, and an insane wrestling pedigree. I mean, Olympic gold medalist, as good as he gets with wrestling.

[A]

I think the last time I heard you talk about a guy like this, at least when I was on. Was Pereira before he came in.

[B]

Similar. Yeah, similar kind of thing where he's a specialist, you know, but you're like.

[A]

Watch out for this guy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, Yeah. I remember D.C. was like, come on, man. I'm like, dude, I'm telling you, this guy is different.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I had been a huge fan of Pereira when he was fighting in Glory, and, you know, you'd watch him hit guys, and they'd go flying across the ring. Yeah. Like, what the. Is that guy made out? And when you. Like when I interview him, like, I put my hand on him, it's like this table dude, he's, like, made out of oak. Like, he's dense, and there's something about the way he throws punches. Have you ever seen him punch that. That machine, you know, that machine that, like, generates, like, it shows you, but.

[A]

It'S like super high power.

[B]

He hit it with his right hand because his left hand had been bothering him. And he got 190. The pre. Like, Francis Ngannou got a 129. He got a 190 with a right hand. It's insane, dude. I got, like, 150 with a kick. This guy got 190 with a punch. 190s. Insane. And it's his right hand. I bet his left hand is probably 200. It's. See if you can find that video. It got deleted. The way it was being advertised, when.

[A]

You Google it broke the Internet.

[B]

People, like, hide it somewhere. Bro, Bro. He hit so hard that Mark Goddard, after he fought Khalil Roundtree, after he just beat Khalil Roundtree across the octagon. Be Mark Goddard. When they were announcing the KO and, you know, raising his hand, Mark comes up to me at the end of the fight. He goes, the sound. The sound it makes when that guy hits people is ungodly. He goes, I've been doing this for 20 years, mate. He goes, it's ungod. Watch this one. 70. Oh, my gosh.

[A]

Bro.

[B]

Yellow. Play that again. Play that. Just look at the force that this guy generates. There's something about. There's. It's the leverage because of his tech. That's us watching it. 170. Well, that's nuts. Yeah, that's nuts. He's got. His power is a weird thing, man. You're born with it like nothing else. Like, there's a lot of skills that you can acquire, but there's a threshold to how hard you're going to be able to hit. And I think it's based on body mechanics. It's based on the. The frame him. It's based on the size of your hand. He has massive hands. It's based on. There's just a lot of factors. Explosive, fast twitch, muscle fiber. Some people don't have a lot of it. Some people are more of an endurance fighter, and they don't hit as hard, but they could just get you with combinations, and they put you away eventually. But Pereira is different, man. It's like, in, like. He's like David. David Goggins always likes to say he's uncommon amongst uncommon men.

[A]

Yeah. It's interesting that his. His chin seems to be holding up really well. Yeah. And he, you know, has been knocked out before. He's getting older and, like, he seems fine.

[B]

Well, it's because he was not cutting weight anymore. There's nothing that your chin up more than dehydration. When he was losing weight, he was getting down to £185, and he was weighing in the day of the fight at 226. 226. Weighing in at 185. You cut weight and then rehydrating up to 226 a day later.

[A]

Damn.

[B]

Like you don't rehydrate your brain, man. And so you can't take shots. You can't take shots as well. And it's a, it's a common thread amongst fighters like Jack Hermanson. He got knocked out by Gregory Rodriguez at 185. And Gregory Rodriguez is another one. He's a freak. Just a giant 185. Like it doesn't even make sense. You're standing next to him. I weigh 200 pounds and I stand next to him. I'm a little short, maybe me. And I'm like, how, how the. Are you 15 pounds lighter than me? That's not even. It's not. This is science. Like it doesn't even make sense. And so Jack went down to 170 and just got KO'd the other day. Bad. Yeah, just bad.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I think that you're way more vulnerable like Frankie Edgar is a perfect example because Frankie, when he was in his prime at 155, didn't cut anyway. He was one of the rare guys that was a 155 pound champion that was actually 155 pounds when he fought. And just amazing durability because of that, because he didn't, he didn't dehydrate himself. So he was like optimal. And there's like this point of diminishing returns where you know you're physically bigger, you're stronger, but you can't take shots. And you also fatigue quicker because your body essentially almost dies. Died 24 hours ago.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, these guys get to death's door to make weight. Their whole face is sucked in, their eyeballs are pulled back in their head. Yeah, it's kind of crazy.

[A]

Yeah. I think more attention is going to come to how to actually ensure your brain stays safe in the sports for longevity purposes as people kind of realize how impactful like the weight cutting especially can be. But also like if you end up getting knocked out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You might not come back the same. And some of the strategies that should be employed after those fights as well to actually restore as quickly as possible and avoid permanent degradation.

[B]

Well, it's like there's, there's two schools of thought. There's one school of thought that I'm in which we need to expand the weight classes so we have more weight classes and we need to somehow or another institute some sort of hydration policy where you cannot dehydrate yourself and weigh in and pretend that you weigh 170 when really you weigh 210. Because there's. There's a lot of guys doing that. That. And the other school of thought is they should be able to hydrate with IVs, because they used to be able to hydrate with IVs. The blood, brain barrier, like, and the hydration of the brain. It takes much longer to rehydrate your brain than it does to rehydrate your muscle tissue.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so these guys are going in there, their muscles are full, but their brain is dehydrated and they're vulnerable to getting knocked out. And I think that's what happened with Pereira, particularly with the Izzy fight. But Izzy caught him with a picture perfect right hand, just right on the chin, and then followed it up with a left hook. But it was just. He didn't have the durability at 185 that he has at 205. At 205, he's been dropped like Khalil dropped him. Guys have dropped him and, you know, ankle, I have rocked him. But he can take it. He could take it at 205.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And now he's talking about going all the way up to heavyweight, which is kind of crazy.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, like, all power to him if he does. Who doesn't want to see.

[B]

Oh, yeah. I mean, I would love to see him fight Jon Jones at the White House.

[A]

And what's your ideal White House card look like?

[B]

Jon Jones versus Pereira, for sure. Conor McGregor versus Michael Chandler. That would be awesome. You know, you want to have some fun. Like, that's, that's a fun fight, you know, and then you'd probably want like, Islam Makachev versus Ilia Toria. That would be insane. You know, maybe even at 155. I don't know if Islam even wants to make 155 anymore, but Ilya said he would fight him at 170, which is crazy because Ilya is smaller than me. Like, that's, that's another walk around with I don't know. I don't know. But that's another guy that has the touch of death. There's guys that just have freaky power.

[A]

Hopefully he doesn't let his personal derail whatever is happening. I know, like, you're in your late 20s and it's like, not the time, bro.

[B]

I know, it's crazy. I don't know what happened with the wife.

[A]

I don't know if it's a coincidence, but, I mean, you can't. I'm sure the Internet has their speculation, but the timing is very odd. With like one of these interviews he did where somebody was almost seemed to plant in his head that, like, if you meet a. A wife in Miami, that she's probably like, not a, you know, good, you know.

[B]

Is that where he met her?

[A]

I think so, yeah. And it was like, but he lives in Spain. And somebody, I forget who it was, but somebody like jokingly said, oh, you met, like, it looks like you can meet quality women in Miami. Crazy. Like you would have never thought. And then he was like, visibly shook. He was like, what do you mean by that?

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

And the guy was like, did I just offend you and you're gonna fuck me up? Or like, what is happening right now? And he was just seemed to like almost internalize that, that, is there a reason I shouldn't trust Miami women? And I haven't considered it. And then it just like, you can't help but think with the timing, the fucking wheels are turning.

[B]

Oh, God, I didn't know that he met her in Miami. I don't know if that's even true.

[A]

Because he lives or if it even is like relevant at all. But it's just weird timing.

[B]

I would imagine it's relevant meeting a woman in Miami.

[A]

Like, I mean, the factors certainly support that. It's like a more likely chance that she's not the person she represented herself as potentially. But.

[B]

Well, not just that. It's the culture of Miami. I always say that if you want to starve to death up a bookstore in Miami, it's like people are just partiers. It's like, you should have a passport to go to Miami. It's barely America. Yeah, it's fun, it's great city, a lot of fun, but it doesn't really lend itself to like the kind of like sturdy, stay at home mom support for a world champion, because the discipline involved in being not just a world champion, but a world champion on Ilya's level, you know, like 2 Division. Dominator goes up, knocks out Charles Oliveira. Like it's nothing. Which is cr. Not only that. Had a celebration the night before the fight, celebrated victory.

[A]

That was almost like Gordon Ryan, like times two. Like times two. Yeah.

[B]

And even apologized to Charles. I'm sorry it has to be you, you know, I love you, you're a great guy. Sorry it has to be you. Like, super respectful of Charles. He's a legend, you know. And then flatlines him in the first round like he said he was going to. He said, like, he's like, trust me, I'm going to knock him out in the first round, one punch.

[A]

Boom.

[B]

Touch of death. It's like he's. There's guys that have. And for him, it's like not a big guy. Right? Like, not extremely muscular. Like, there's nothing. He's not massive, but it's mechanics. His mechanics are perfect. His timing is perfect. Belief in himself, technique, everything. It's like all the above, but is like, there's guys that you can't let hit you, and Ilya is one of them. And I. I think that probably carries all the way up to 170. I just don't. I mean, the difference between so 170. Look at him and then look at some of the big 170. He's like Jack Della Madeleina. He's a big guy. Like, there's like, big, like Michael Venom Page. He's huge. That would be a nightmare matchup for. For Ilya if he really did decide to go to 170. A guy like Venom, because you can't hit that guy. Like, if you can't hit that guy and he can hit you. And he's a Point Fighting champion. So that is the absolute best style of the blitz of, like, being able to close distance quickly. Nobody does that like that mvp. He's the best at it. The best at it, maybe of all time.

[A]

Yeah. I wonder if it'd be kind of like when Canelo tried to go up and then it was kind of like.

[B]

He fought B Val. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

I could see that sort of being the oakum where it's not as.

[B]

Yeah, could be. But Canelo, it's like later in his career, you know, but it's like, there's. It'll be a giant.

[A]

But also, you have, like, the disadvantage of it's actually MMA versus just boxing. But, like, yeah, the guy is one of the most exciting guys to watch. Has. Is a great representative, too, when he was on your show. Dude. Oh, he's amazing. Oh, my God. Dude. Could you have said more? Right? Things.

[B]

Things. Yeah, I know.

[A]

He's great. And then that just is unfortunate for any misalignment of your personal life at this time of your career. Somebody's got to get him a bad woman. He's got to get his boys in his corners, like, get his mind, you know, dialed, because he has children with this lady, too.

[B]

So it's like, oh, God.

[A]

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, it's like, you know, that's what it is, regardless of what he's saying. You know, when he's like, I gotta get my personal life in Order and the timing of everything. And I think there's actually, actually. Is it publicly media about the. There's like a divorce now or something?

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah, it's public. Yeah.

[A]

Jesus Christ.

[B]

Well, she's taking photos with rappers and. Yeah. Putting it on Instagram.

[A]

No. Yeah.

[B]

You know how they do it? They try to steal your soul, put a knife right in your spirit.

[A]

Dude, that's crazy.

[B]

Yeah, man. There's. Hell has no fury like a woman scorned. It's a.

[A]

Well, hopefully that helps him think. He made the right call then, I guess.

[B]

Buddy, does that help? This is the mother of your children. And this lady. Lady is a monster.

[A]

And there's nothing worse than feeling, like psychologically duped by somebody too.

[B]

Well, I don't know if it is psychologically duped or if it's like, once she's not on your side, you know, it's just. Burn the house down.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, maybe there's a lot of ladies like that because they feel like you. You hooked up with a guy who's an incredibly special human being. The rarest of rare. You have not just UFC world champion, but a two division world champion, champion superstar who the whole world wants to see. And you're his wife. So you. You like, oh, look at me, I'm married to the baddest alive. And then he doesn't want to be with you anymore. Like, oh, really? Well, I'm gonna take you down. And women, that's what they love is reputation destruction. That's what they're really. That's what they really are experts in when shit goes sideways.

[A]

What's the typical outcome of these cases where it's like, super famous person, wife claims that she is 50, responsible for their success, tries to take half. Is that like, if there's no prenup, that's kind of just what happens.

[B]

Depends on where they are. Right. So I don't know where they got married, you know, where they're getting divorced. I was like, is it in Spain? What kind of laws.

[A]

He seems like a super traditional guy who, like, probably didn't even get the right set up.

[B]

God, I hope not.

[A]

He seems really, like, innocent and, you.

[B]

Know, it looks like a perfect marriage. Yeah, that's. That's what's crazy. But this is the, the ugliness of social media, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is that everybody wants to put out this pretend image of perfection that everything's perfect. And so you have photos of you holding hands and walking together and kissing. I love you more than anything in life. And you post it out there for the world, and you're putting on a show for the world, but meanwhile, there's like, all sorts of internal bullshit that's going on you're trying to work through, and you're hoping it works out. And.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then when it falls apart, you're like. And then you got to go back in your Instagram and delete all those pictures.

[A]

Isn't it better to just, like, not talk about any of it publicly and just, like, keep your relationship, like, private?

[B]

I think most of your life you should keep. I think social media in general and that not just for famous people, just in general is way worse for people than it is good. Especially Instagram.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think many a person has ruined their life on Twitter. Many a person has said things on Twitter that's tanked their career, ruined their life. You know, it's just the motivation to get attention for your words and your images is very toxic. It's very dangerous, and you're playing with explosives. It's just not smart. It's just not a good thing to engage in. I am much happier when I rarely am on social media. Media. And so I, like, dip my toes in, see what everybody's mad about, then I get the out and move on with my day. And I never try to portray myself in any way other than who I actually am. I don't. I'm not interested in, like, some, you know, some video montage with music and inspirational quotes. If somebody else makes that, that's fine. I'm not involved. Involved. But I'm not putting anything like that up and checking the likes. Get the out of here. That's bad for you. I think it's bad for your. The good and the bad. The negatives. The people hating on you is bad for you. Like, oh, that's not me at all. Hey, why are you saying that? And then the good's not good for you either, because then you start believing your own and think your doesn't smell. It's crazy. It's bad for you. It's just. It's the opposite of mindfulness is the opposite of being in the moment.

[A]

Moment.

[B]

It's the opposite of that because you're, like, living for other people's attention that you don't even know. You don't even know these people. And you're allowing them to comment on, like, your wife and your family. You're holding her hand and you're renewing vows. You're on your knee, presenting her a ring in a video. What the are you doing? Yeah, like, why would you do that? That's a private thing. If it's real love to machine the two of you, and if it's like, if you're really working, work hard in silence. What is this? What are you doing? Like, what is all this about? But it's just for likes. Everybody is addicted to these likes. I want to see the numbers. Only 6,000 likes. This is crazy. I bared my soul for you. I just think it's really bad for people. And also, it's like most people don't know what fame really is. They think they do, and then they get it, and then they think they can manage it. And then the. The. The. The psychology behind it and the. The spinning that goes on in your mind when you're trying to go to bed and you're worried about all the mean things people are saying about you, it's like, it's just bad. It's just not good.

[A]

What's the strategy now for you? You have burner phone or, like, how do you. Do you just, like, divorce yourself from.

[B]

I just don't read it. I don't read anything and I don't.

[A]

You did a burner phone for a while?

[B]

Yeah, I. Well.

[A]

Or is just annoying.

[B]

I do have a burner phone. Well, I don't have a burner phone. I have a phone that I give to people that are just annoying or that I don't really want to like. I leave it at home and never check it. So there's. There's certain, like, business stuff. And I don't want business stuff to be entering into my life all the time. So I want to. I have, like, regimented times where I check things and respond to people. But I think my next phone number, which I'm changing soon, is going to be no social media at all. And then my other phone number, I'm just gonna do that with it. I'm just gonna do my social media posts, all the stuff that I have to do, like, hey, I got a show coming up, or, hey, this guy was great. It's podcast happening post and ghost is what I do. Post, then get out of there. But I'm not gonna have any social media on my new phone. I just generally think it's bad for you and it gets in the way of. It's. It's an abuse of precious resources. That's what I think.

[A]

So what do you have, like, podcasts and stuff on it? Or, like, how do you. Do you entertain yourself with actual social media or, like.

[B]

No, I'll Entertain myself with YouTube it's.

[A]

Hard to not, like, have this infiltrate when you have, like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

A taste of it. It's like before you know it, you're sitting on the toilet looking at social media. Yeah.

[B]

That's a night. Another nice thing that I like to do is not look at my phone when I'm on the toilet. Just go to the toilet and just leave it there. I've been leaving my phone on do not disturb too, which is also a nice thing. I like doing that. Put it on do not disturb and check it occasionally. Every now and then, check it and, you know, you could set up do not disturb where certain people can get through. Like, my wife can get through. My kids can get through. Best friends can get through. But it's just like, I think that for the most part what you're. What you're doing is you're using very valuable resources on things that aren't valuable at all.

[A]

Yeah. It's part of the reason I work best late at night. As much as I would love to have the perfect circadian rhythm and, you know, go to bed at the perfect time and align it with the sun going down, it's like the only time my phone and all the stuff is not blowing up is in the middle of the night. And I can just focus and not have to think about stuff, you know, blasting me.

[B]

Me too. Yeah. My best writing is always late at night when everyone's asleep.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And that's also. It's like there's something about late at night where the world seems a little bit more crazy that I think my mind is, like, a little more tuned to danger and chaos and just like, it seems like more hyper frightened because it's dark out. You know, it's dark out and everyone's asleep. I'm like, what is the world really made out of? Like, that's where I do my best thinking.

[A]

It's funny because when I look out, I just see, like, calm. There's no traffic.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm just like, this is nice.

[B]

That too. But I. I Night is when I worry about war. That's when I worry about.

[A]

Dude.

[B]

Yeah, that's. I know it's not good. Sometimes I let it get in my head. That's when I get my most anxiety about the future of the world is like, night. There's something about that.

[A]

Do you still smoke weed? A fair bit or.

[B]

Allegedly, yeah.

[A]

How's that?

[B]

It's great for writing. Oh, yeah. That's not good for paranoia.

[A]

That's what I was asking.

[B]

Yeah. Well, it makes you like hypersensitive to. To danger too and. Yeah, but it's really great for creativity. For creativity, there's nothing like it. And for comedy, it's a steroid. It's like the best, like, it is the best performance enhancing drug ever created for writing comedy.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

Yeah. There's nothing like it. Like, especially edibles. Like, you, you have thoughts that, like, you're like, okay, I don't know if I would ever have that thought without weed. Like, that thought is weed. Wrote that joke. I barely, barely had anything to do with that.

[A]

What's the ideal edible dose?

[B]

Depends on your tolerance. Talk to zero tolerance. Oh, 10, 10 milligrams. Might you up though? Maybe five. Maybe five is good. You know, that's like in the places where it's legal. Like if you go to New York or LA, they, they. I think LA has a 10 milligram threshold. I think you can only get 10. That's the highest you can get. 10's a lot for someone who doesn't do it. But you know, Joey Diaz will pop like a 252. He'll pop a 5. He'll pop two 250s. He's a fucking freak, though. Like, his tolerance is like nothing I've ever seen in my life. He used to dose people. He would take like a 25 milligram edible and he'd take the wrapper off and put a 250 milligram edible in and give it to his co host.

[A]

Oh, my God. Oh my God, dude. It's like, I think it's funny, but like, I'm not.

[B]

It's only funny because it's Joey. It was anybody that is in love, you'd be like, what the is wrong with you? But when Joey does it just like, oh my God.

[A]

So you just think you're dying, like, unreasonable.

[B]

You just know. And he's over there laughing.

[A]

And you're just sitting there spiraling, knowing how you you up?

[B]

Yeah, he just always says, I want to see the devil. He goes this microdosing. I want to see the devil. He likes seeing that. He likes getting freaked out. He likes it. But I mean, for creativity, I think it has a place.

[A]

That's the comedian juice right there.

[B]

Yeah, I think, you know, not for everybody. Some people don't like it at all. You know, I know some really great comics that are stone cold sober and for them it's just so they just like to sit and think. But a lot of the best ones that I know, they have switched over to either a flip Phone or a phone with nothing on it. No social media at all. I think eventually you realize, like, that time you're spending just scrolling mindlessly through things such. It's such precious resources, your time. You only have so much time in a day and you're spending time just looking at nonsense. But it, but also the other side of it is you do want to have. Have your finger on the pulse of society. You want to kind of know what's going on in the world.

[A]

Yeah. If you're a comedian, how do you even, like, talk about pop culture and stuff that's trending or whatever?

[B]

Well, interestingly enough, I get sent enough things.

[A]

Oh, it's like consolidated for you.

[B]

Yeah. I get sent enough things by my friends that are fucked up that I don't have to go looking. So I go, jesus, is that real? And then I'll maybe, you know, do a search and find out that it is real. Real. And then read about it and like, oh, what? But that I think is probably valuable because it's keeping you informed. It's the endless mindless scrolling that I think is the most detrimental and the one that robs you of the most time. Because, you know, you could be sitting down at the kitchen table and all of a sudden you have this plan for the day you're gonna get going. You're drinking a cup of coffee and then, you know, 45 minutes is gone.

[A]

Yeah, 45.

[B]

You get a brutal workout in 45 minutes. But you didn't do it. Anything.

[A]

There's nothing more guilty feeling than having wasted, like your six to eight really sharp mental hours. Any. Any part of that on something that dumb.

[B]

I feel so bad when I do it. Yeah. When. When I have done it in the past, I just feel.

[A]

It's like, how did I do it again? You know?

[B]

Yep. How did, how did I let it get me?

[A]

Yeah. It's like you feel like a, like an idiot or like a druggie or something. It's like, well, you are, you're.

[B]

You're a low level druggie. You know, it's a low drug. It's not even a good one. It's not even. Like, I feel great. This is amazing. Like, it doesn't even do that to you. Sean Sugar. Sean o' Malley had a great quote. He said, even when I'm just regular scrolling even has nothing to do with me. He goes, I get a low level anxiety. And I'm like, yeah, me too. Like, it's weird. And I think that low level anxiety is like a little bit of as you know, you're wasting your time, you know.

[A]

Yeah, for sure.

[B]

When he fought Merab the second time, he got totally off social media for, like, months and months.

[A]

Oh, probably the best strategy.

[B]

Yeah. It still didn't help, you know.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, at least he put in, like, did what he thought would work, though.

[B]

Did his best.

[A]

There's a lot of people that will succumb to the pressure at the max level and check the. You know, what people are saying about them. Who's gonna win.

[B]

That's the worst.

[A]

Watching your training footage you posted and seen if people like it, talking about whatever. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, some people thrive on it. They like haters.

[A]

Bodybuilding is the worst for it, too. I'm sure it's just as bad as an mma, but it's like your entire physique is like your social media brand. So it's like you post your physique and then the feedback you get, you kind of have to look at, I guess, because it's like what you compete with too. So you're literally taking judge feedback that's subjective and taking what they're telling you is wrong with your body to fix. And then you're just bombarded by people in the comments section are like, you lost because of this. You're lazy. How'd you not get in shape and say, even down to the lighting on stage can make you look much worse than you actually are? I'll be like, you showed up with soggy glutes, bitch. Like, I'm fucking shredded. Like, what are you talking about?

[B]

Soggy glutes is hilarious.

[A]

Yeah. And it's like back in the 90s. I don't know what it was, but it was like some of the lighting, too, was almost so bad that it gave this granular, sharp, sharp, kind of like pixelated, but, like, etchy look to the physiques. And it would look like they were more cut and defined and just better down lighting overall. And some of these shows, they're so washed out with the high resolution and, like, the perfect. I want to say perfect. It's like almost overexposed lighting to show what's going on on the stage that they look watery and fat, even when they're like. And I say watery and fat, like, you know, like the up perception of the fitness industry. It's like, proportional to what you're expected to look like, but it's like they could be shred out of their mind. And, like, having worked so hard to show up in shape and then just get, like, decimated online from Some keyboard warrior who's like, you're back. It's like too watery, bro. Go back to the elliptical, you know.

[B]

Well, it's also like bodybuilding is the sport sort of ego. Right. Because it's only about what you look like.

[A]

Yeah. It's crazy.

[B]

That's the whole thing. It's not about how fast you are. Like, look, look, Gable, I was like, he's not shredded.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, but he's ultimate freak, you know, look like BJ Penn in his prime. Like there's a lot of guys who are, they were never shredded. They, they were always just smooth and people up. David Benavidez, another one like elite world class boxer, light heavyweight champion. A little muffin top. Just. Did you see this last fight? Benavides fought Anthony Yard. Okay. Perfect contrast just happened last weekend.

[A]

Yeah, I missed that one. Yeah.

[B]

Yard is shredded. He is an Adonis. He is a Greek God. He is literally like, you look at him, there's no way. If you saw the two of them, you would say that guy on the left that has no abs and is smooth going to destroy the guy on the right. Nobody would believe it. See if you can find. Yeah. The two of them together. There's no way. There's no way. David Benavidez is one of the scariest guys alive because he's relentless. He's so skillful, he's so fast, is brutal combinations. But he's so unimpressive physically. Looking at him and yard looks like, like you would expect in a movie. Like the perfect, perfect. The perfect scary opponent. Like there's Benavidez. Oh, yeah, look at him. I mean, he looks like an athlete. Right? Looks in shape. But now where do you see yard? Look at yard. Oh, shredded. Yeah, like fitness shredded. And brutal. Power too. But it just couldn't with Benavidez, see, go way deep into the fight before he stops him. Yeah. I mean, Benavides was just putting it on him, just standing right in front. And yard. The thing about having that much musculature, there's just a reality of your, you know, the, the oxygen.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Just beat the out of them, man. Yard's really good, man. He's a really good boxer. But Benavidez, like, look at the difference in the physiques, man. His physique is perfect.

[A]

Yeah. I mean it's almost like a limitation for some people where you're just like sapping up so much oxygen carrying capacity to supply the tissue.

[B]

But it's, you know, it's also there's a skill gap. I mean, Benavidez is super fucking skillful and is. He's. This is the guy that people say Canelo has been avoiding. He kind of probably has because Benavidez is the up and coming Mexican champion that everybody loves and Canelo is, you know, the king. And everybody was like, this is the big fight at 168. And so Benavidez had to go up to 175 to get big fight fights because Canelo wouldn't fight him at 168.

[A]

Huh? Canelo is. Is he just kind of like picking and choosing this?

[B]

Look at this, bro. Come on, man. This guy's good. He's so good. How old is. Right? He's young, man. I think Benavides is. Is he 28? How old is David Benavidez? He's young.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Young and elite and going through his prime right now. Hold is 28. Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Yeah, in his prime, you know, he's even more unassuming, is like half the NHL players that play hockey.

[B]

Oh, really?

[A]

Oh, dude, like, have you ever seen somebody look more like a frat bro who does not play sports? NHL players.

[B]

Well, those guys have crazy cardio. Yeah, that's crazy.

[A]

But you would never think, like, I used to bounce downtown Vancouver and we'd have the teams come by that would play the Canucks and they would, would come party at the Champagne Lounge and the club that I was bouncing at, and he'd be like, this guy is like, you know, a professional athlete. It'd be the whole team and half them looked like, you know, some dude that's like, you do like a fucking keg stand with it, like, you know, a party. And that's like the max of his athletic capacity is being like held up to chug some beer or something.

[B]

Well, I bet those guys drink a lot over. Yeah, a bit of an out of all the athletes that drink, it's got to be hockey players at the top of the heap, right?

[A]

Yeah. And they're, they're super athletic or a good endurance. You know, it's like just so unassuming, physique wise. It's like it's all legs.

[B]

Yeah, it's got to be all legs. I bet they're shredded from the waist down.

[A]

Yeah, it's crazy seeing like the sport specific translation in actual, like physical, like physiology that's conducive to your sport. You see a sprinter and it's like, you know, he's a 100 meter sprinter and then you see, you know, another guy and it's like you might, might not even think he plays sports.

[B]

You know, I. I thought that when I went to the professional soccer team here in town, Austin fc. These guys have these quarter horse legs and then like real thin upper bodies. Like, they don't use their arms. They don't. It's literally, unless you're a goalie, you don't use them. Yeah. So they have like tiny little upper bodies, massive legs, and insane cardio video because they're constantly sprinting. They sprint for 90 minutes. I mean, they're just running around sprinting.

[A]

There's a. A couple outliers that do look up Adam Treori, I think it is. I might be totally butchering.

[B]

Well, Ronaldo. Ronaldo's.

[A]

Ronaldo's pretty jacked.

[B]

Yeah, he's. Yeah, he's jacked.

[A]

He's like the hyper optimizer too.

[B]

He really is. I mean, that guy. Remember there was a thing where they tried to give him a Coca Cola and he took it aside, said, no agua.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And Coca Cola lost like a billion dollars in stock. Whoa, look at that guy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, that guy's a freak. Yeah, well, there's always going to be freaks out there.

[A]

Yeah. But it's crazy to see a guy like that excel so well too, at a sport that you would think he'd kind of be like, barely chugging along.

[B]

Well, that's probably just because he's been doing it his whole life, you know, and he has unbelievable genetics. Yeah, genetics are a nutty thing, man. You can't outrun genetics. But they don't always help. Like, look at yard. Yard has perfect genetics, Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then a vidas you would look at them and you go, oh, that's not the best genetics. Like, if he was a bodybuilder, you, like, get the out of here.

[A]

Yeah. It's crazy too, because sometimes you might just have, like, nice looking round muscle bellies, but you don't actually have, like, mitochondrial density to support athletic endeavors. So you're kind of just like a show thing. You're just like a cosmetically pleasing athlete, but not actually able to translate it into anything thing.

[B]

Yeah, that's weird. I've always thought that was weird. I always thought that was weird and striking because there's a lot of guys that are just built like brick houses. And then you see him hit the bag and be like, this is nuts. Like, you have zero power.

[A]

It's weird. Yeah. And it's like, you would think objectively more muscle equals. But sometimes they're like, weak as even in lifts. It's just like the Development. The hypertrophy they get from it is just disproportionately better.

[B]

That's weird. Can that be optimized though, like close.

[A]

Your eyes, exhale, feel your body relax and let go of whatever you're carrying today? Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts in time for this class. I got them delivered free from 1-800-contacts.

[B]

Oh my gosh, they're so fast.

[A]

And breathe. Oh, sorry. I almost couldn't breathe when I saw.

[B]

The discount they gave me on my first order.

[A]

Oh, sorry.

[B]

Namaste.

[A]

Visit 1-800-contacts.com today to save on your first order.

[B]

1-800-Contacts. They have like unbelievable looking physiques. Is it just that they're not doing as much because they don't need to to look great?

[A]

I think there's definitely specific training for purposes that would be conducive to sport that maybe they, some might be neglecting for sure. And ways to optimize for like, like for example, you don't do hypertrophy work for bodybuilding because it's not conducive really to what you're.

[B]

To trying.

[A]

Trying to get. And I think some, some people, they want the best of both worlds and they want to like look the part and also perform. So they might be.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Sapping bandwidth that could be allocated towards more optimal things that don't make them, you know, as cosmetically pleasing. Yeah, there's definitely things you can do from a support standpoint when it comes to, you know, nutrition supplementation, etc. But like you are ultimately going to be capped to some extent by genetic coating when it comes to like density of certain receptors and like you can upregulate it to whatever capacity you can, but like you can only push it so far before you've kind of, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Chapped out.

[B]

It's interesting because like the really bulky guys, they just never have the same fluidity that the guys that are built like Benavidez have or the, the punches flow and this effortless combinations. Perfect technique. The really jack guys that look like they're destroyers.

[A]

Flexibility is so much more limited too when you're like that though. Oh yeah.

[B]

Unless you really work at it.

[A]

Yeah. Really work on it. Yeah. And you have to have a intentful approach to making sure you can maintain, you know, the flexibility that might otherwise just be innate to somebody who doesn't have to deal with a giant deltoid that like.

[B]

Right, right, right. You know Jocko. You know, Jocko. You know, I've hunted with him before. And Jocko like a correct archery release. Correct archery release is you're supposed to get a surprise shot. So as the shot breaks, your arm kind of goes back like this. Jocko is so jacked and he has such limited motion that his archery release is like this. Like it doesn't. But he's doing it correctly. But his, it doesn't move the same way. It's all just choco smash. You know, he's just, his body is designed to choke the shit out of you. Like that's all it's for. His body. His body's designed to get a hold of you, you take you to the ground, snap your arm in half. That's what it's for. It's just force and, and strength and you know, and it's like, it's funny. I was like, like, does your arm not move that way? He's like, no, it doesn't, doesn't go back. I'm like, that's funny because I'm watching him watching his archery release. It's perfect. But there's, you know, you watch like a, like a Levi Morgan, a world champion pro archer. Like as the shot breaks, their arm just goes back like naturally, just like flows. His just goes, it just moves a little bit.

[A]

When I was at my peak of bodybuilding size, I was in the middle of a job as a lifeguard and teaching swimming lessons to kids. And part of the teaching swimming lessons would involve showing how to do the different strokes of, you know, back crawl, front crawl, breaststroke, all the different things. And when you're like a 265 pound bodybuilder, it gets pretty difficult because not only do you just sit, think harder because you're, you know, mostly muscle, but also like just even trying to get a straight arm past your head. It's impossible. So I actually had to stop teaching swimming.

[B]

Your ears, your shoulders are slamming in.

[A]

Like it would look like you couldn't even do what you're trying to teach, like a six year old or something.

[B]

Very few guys work on mobility. A great example of someone who does is Armand Sarukian. Arman Sarukian, who just wanted to beat Dan Hooker 2 weeks ago or a week ago ago. His mobility training is super impressive. Like Su, he is jacked. Have you seen Arman?

[A]

Yeah, he's pretty shredded.

[B]

He's a guy that like doesn't pass the smell test.

[A]

There's a way to improve mobility, by the way. It's just a lot of bodybuilders like do not care, right? And like there is some anatomical limitations ultimately if there is muscles literally in the way, but just want to put out there. Like. I'm sure I could have figured it out if I cared at the time, perhaps.

[B]

But a 265 with your frame?

[A]

Oh yeah. I would have been limited by like the actual anatomy, but like I had no care for optimizing mobility or anything. I was just like, what's my max.

[B]

Bench Show a photo of Derek when he was jacked. When he was super jacked. Because there's some photos of him out there that are just. You were preposterous.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Do you miss those days? You ever look at that physique? God damn, I look pretty good.

[A]

No, I mean, I feel like I've come to peace a while ago with not looking like that anymore. It's a lot of upkeep to dude to like.

[B]

Yeah, look at you then. Is that your height? I think you were a little bigger than that at one point.

[A]

Yeah, I think this is like a profile picture.

[B]

So.

[A]

Yeah, that. That was a more recent one. It was probably like how I lost £75 in the bottom left is probably. Yeah, right there. The fat. It may be one of those. That shot probably is one of the big bro.

[B]

You got big at one point in time. Was that how you were before you started lifting? Look at that old school BlackBerry. You have the dates, it just by the phone.

[A]

Oh yeah, yeah, it was. I was like trying to be a competitive bodybuilder and I just kind of realized that I could look good for, you know, like fitness industry, I guess, for kind of looking jacked for Instagram or whatever and like doing okay at like a regional level for, you know, a lower tier level of physiques but like bodybuilding, to take it to that next level. It was just like a level of stress I wouldn't be able to, one, be willing to sustain and then two, it just wouldn't have been worth it because it was like I had tried pushing drugs and like I just wasn't responding to a level I knew I needed to to continue and justify using that much.

[B]

Is it a genetic thing?

[A]

Yeah. So it's like your androgen receptor content is a. A largely predetermined. There are some things you can do similar to like mitochondrial density and things of that nature that you can do to upregulate and improve it and certain supplements you can use. But ultimately your number of muscle fibers are going to be limited. Like there's going to be people who are just at baseline, you know, Chihuahua looking humans that if you put them on gear, they just become bigger Chihuahua humans, essentially. But like, they're never going to be. Yeah, they're never gonna get, you know, Mr. Olympia caliber. And there's a certain like muscle belly that's more conducive to looking bigger. And also being able to support certain body weights is even like a health thing too. It's not just how well do you respond to drugs, it's also how long can you take them without dying, you know, so it's like some of the most highest performing and like excelling athletes are individuals who can tolerate this stuff and not go, you know, crazy from the. Some people mentally cannot handle these level of androgens and they, you know, it wrecks their sleep, it wrecks their blood work, it wreck. They get really early cardiovascular disease psychologically too. They go crazy. Yeah, yeah, I've seen deaths in, you know, late 20s, mid-30s.

[B]

And so there was a guy that was Vitor Belfort's trainer when Vitor first entered into the UFC. So Vitor, when he first fought in the UFC, weighed 200 pounds in his UFC debut when he fought Trey Teller ligman, that was UFC 12. And he was like a super athletic, fast, lethal black belt with vicious hands. And then when he fought Randy couture, he was 240 and his neck started at the top of his head.

[A]

It was.

[B]

He just looked.

[A]

Looked like a giant trap.

[B]

Yeah, it was just ridiculous. He was just ridiculous. And the guy who was working out with him, this guy Curtis, wound up dying very young. And we used to call him garden hose hoses because this guy's veins were. He was so vascular. It was ridiculous. We worked out next to him, like, bro, you got garden hoses for veins. These are insane. He was just insane. And he was so big, like so big. 300 plus 510, 300 plus pounds. Just. He was so big. And, you know, he had Vitor convinced that that was the way to go. Just hit the gas full speed.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, at its peak, he was one of the sauciest dudes, or at least, you know, he was like the perfect hybrid of athleticism meets like crazy looking physique, I would say, at least at the time for what I can recall.

[B]

Well, the TRT V V was vtor. So Vitor on the gear when he was younger and then no gear for a while, lull period. And then when they had TRT in the ufc where they allowed it when it was legal, which was a crazy few years that the people call it the Trt vtor. Yeah. Years where Vitor was just dominating everybody.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It was terrifying.

[A]

Him and Overeem are like poster childs.

[B]

Overeem was the. That is the poster child. See if you can find a video of Armand Sarukian's mobility workouts. Do you have it? Because he does really interesting stuff.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Like, stuff I've never seen UFC athletes do, but I would think would be really conducive, especially to, like, scrambles and weird grappling positions where you want to have strong strength and, like, odd. Like, odd positions of your body where you're stretched out and there's one on the side just showing.

[A]

Oh, yeah. I can't imagine.

[B]

So this. This kind of stuff. Like, this kind of stuff? Yeah, like, look at this. Like, look at all these things. So he's doing these kind of things all the time.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Just to maintain that kind of flexibility along with. With all that mass and all that power that he has, getting out of.

[A]

Some of those awkward positions. Like, you got to be able to get into weird spots comfortably. And.

[B]

Yeah, this is. Look at that. Like, that's crazy. That's crazy. Rotation of his back. Yeah. He's got amazing mobility, but I do have to say he also has back problems.

[A]

Ah.

[B]

And it might be one of the reasons why he does this. I mean.

[A]

Yeah. When you go exorcism on the Twister machine, I can imagine he probably end up with something.

[B]

I don't think that's what caused it, honestly. I think probably grappling. Like, he's a really elite grappler. There's a video of him grappling with Hamza, and he keeps up with Hamza, and they're two weight classes separated, and Hamza is fantastic. And, you know, they're scrambling, and it's like a very competitive grappling session.

[A]

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, it's. And circling back to some, like, you know, the sauce days and, like, the garden hose guy. I do think it's good that the education is out there, though, for people to be able to know how to not. Not die from this stuff now, because it's.

[B]

Whoa, that's Curtis. Yeah, yeah, that's him.

[A]

Because back then, it would just be like.

[B]

Go to that photo again in the upper left. That upper left photo. That's crazy. Guy was so vascular. Like, look at his bicep. Bananas, Right? Look at that. Right bicep. And his chest. He's got garden hoses on his chest.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Full chocolate, but chocolate face, too.

[A]

He had chocolate face or Milano tan. Not the Wazoo.

[B]

Well, you know the guys that do it now where they keep their face. Right. White because they don't want to be called out for having black face. Have you seen that? Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, that's funny.

[B]

It is funny.

[A]

Have you seen the. I think we looked at the melanotan people.

[B]

Is that a peptide?

[A]

Yeah, melanotan 2 is a.1 of the. I don't know if it's an obscure one, but I guess maybe proportional to some of the more widespread ones nowadays. But it's like a melan cortin receptor agonist. And actually an analog of it is used for women for hypoac attractive, like low sexual drive. So it actually enhances sexual drive too. So there's like a component. There's a version of the drug that doesn't tan you, that just like makes you hornier, that women are prescribed called violisi. And then men. There's no drug approved, but you could theoretically take it. But it gives you boners and also makes you tanned if you take them. The lino tan too, huh? Yeah. So it's like for bodybuilders. And it also suppresses appetite as well.

[B]

Whoa. It really does that.

[A]

That.

[B]

That's. Well, that's a weird. The. The lighting on that one, right.

[A]

Is weird from the day.

[B]

This. Yeah, it's right on the daily mail though it seems like they might have.

[A]

No, no, dude, this is actually possible.

[B]

I like how it says that too.

[A]

Yeah. You can literally manually become black with this drug.

[B]

Didn't some lady take that and she was on like one of them Sally Jesse Raphael shows?

[A]

Yeah. She claimed she was black. Yeah, yeah. And she's like, look at me. What are you gonna tell me? I'm not. Yeah. She started talking like you.

[B]

Oh, God.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How wild.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What if it did it to your hair too? Turn.

[A]

It does, cuz it's all pigment related. So it does make your hair blacker as well. It makes your facial hair darker.

[B]

What does it do? Is there something like that for guys that have gray hair?

[A]

Yeah, like it does it to.

[B]

Is this the. Yeah, this is the lady.

[A]

Forgot about this.

[B]

Look at her boobs too. Too. Oh my God. That lady might be insane. Like, I'm guessing. Yes.

[A]

And it's like you almost wouldn't even think it's real if you weren't told by somebody that you actually can go that far. Like, it's. It's literally you pick your dose and the exposure to the sun will dictate via the dosage, like how dark you get. And you can Go all the way.

[B]

Interesting. Yeah, like.

[A]

Like full chocolate body.

[B]

Is there any side effects?

[A]

Yeah, you get really nauseous if you overdo it. It's actually a really potent appetite suppressor. So it's like one of the. Back in the day, I. You could find my before and after type in Milanotan. Two more plates, more dates, you'll see mine before and after the last time I used it.

[B]

And did you use it for bodybuilding to try to.

[A]

Yeah, because I'm pale as. So like, for me the thought of having a tan, which was pretty awesome. There's me with my CPAP mask on.

[B]

If you take it with a CPAP.

[A]

Mask on, I was just like, I look kind of traded. I'll take a pic.

[B]

That's funny.

[A]

If you scroll down, you'll see my back before and after. If you keep going there, right there.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

Yeah. And that's like weeks apart.

[B]

Does tan you?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Dude, you had giant lats, man. That's nuts.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You could jump off a cliff and fly like a squirrel.

[A]

Yeah. What a weird pose. You just stand there like.

[B]

Yeah, well, bodybuilding is weird, period. Yeah, it is odd. It's just like the whole idea is not the function, it's not performance, it's just looking giant. Yeah.

[A]

It's like some of the exercises don't even translate the way you think they would too. Like, you do a. You get really good at the bench press, then you do something else that you think is like pushing related or like force production. It's like, oh, I'm weak as here for some reason. Even though you thought it would trans translate. But there's not like a. It's almost training neuronal patterns too, more than even just like the muscle and you get hypertrophy. But you're also kind of just like training yourself to get really good at specific movements in a way that has like no application to a lot of.

[B]

Sports, typically just to look jacked.

[A]

There are more like functional choices, obviously, but like the ones most conducive to bodybuilding and not getting injured are oftentimes times like, you know, the typical kind of like beachbody style things. But there are. They're more intelligent choices for sure. It's not all that.

[B]

But that's the thing though is like the, the guys who lift the heaviest and do it. That's. That's a very odd thing. Like. And then they wind up getting like Ronnie Coleman wound up really getting up from. Ronnie was like famously one of the heaviest lifters as a bodybuilder.

[A]

And for what it's worth, I'm absolutely not like above this style of training. This is like what I still kind of do, to be honest. So it's like I do, you know, I'm still a fan of bodybuilding. I don't want to like speak poorly on it or anything. And we oversee some of the best bodybuilders on the planet right now as well and make sure they can do it as safely as possible because it's still a dangerous sport and you know, you gotta take modern knowledge to not screw yourself up nowadays.

[B]

What do you ever tell a guy like, you just don't have the genetics to ever do that this at a professional level. Do you have ever have to have that conversation with people? Like you're, you're pushing the gear so hard and it's not responding.

[A]

Like if I had a friend, I guess maybe similar to your like heart to heart you had with Shop about MMA at the time when it was like not really worth continuing to expose danger wise. Yeah, it's, you know, often a lot of these kind of situations happen in bodybuilding where it's like you have a close friend who's taking exorbitant amounts of drugs and you know, it's just like, like killing him and you know that the, like you're not going to make it to the Olympia. So really like, what are we doing this for? Yeah, you have better opportunities elsewhere. Like I've had that conversation a couple times. But in general it's kind of like you kind of have to have the self awareness to know. And I think fortunately that's part of where the education comes in is back in the day you wouldn't know that you had the bad genetics. You just think everyone's taking more shit than, than you because you wouldn't really, you thought there was a secret that you didn't know there was some special drug that they sourced from Europe that you're not getting right. You know, they have the secret, you know, fill in the blank thing that the guru at the Olympia level who's coaching all the top bodybuilders has and you just need to get to the next level and get your ifbb pro card. And then maybe I'll get to work with that guru and then he'll give me access to that drug and then I can take it to the next level. And then before you know it, a lot of these guys are still grinding for really like low level shows or like to place poorly even at like the entry level of professional and their health is A wreck and they're not really gonna make it to where they think maybe they're on the path to. And so I don't know. I think the more, you know, transparent look into it has made a lot of people more self aware to check themselves and also to know if they're even even you have to respond. Well, from a health standpoint too, it's not just how good do I look in the mirror. If you have wrecked blood work or you have a abnormal anatomical structure of your heart before you start subjecting yourself to hormones, these are things that are all checkable now proactively and you could tell beforehand if you're a good candidate not just from a muscular response standpoint, but also from a health tolerance standpoint.

[B]

I wonder what if any, what factor genetic engineering is going to play into bodybuilding.

[A]

Myostatin inhibition. There is gene therapies that are being utilized now. They're just not that efficacious is myostatin inhibitors.

[B]

Are people using them now?

[A]

Pharmaceutical pipelines are trying to integrate them in order to offset muscle catabolism induced via GLP1 agonists like semaglutide. Interesting. Yeah. So it's kind of a unique time because not only do we have really aggressive fat loss agents that actually work now that are not simply stimming your brain to, you know, to high hell which a lot of the previous drugs worked like that. Now it's like we have these effective things but they make you eat so little that we. Now the next thing is there's all this attention on how to lose, lose healthy weight and not, you know, a bunch of muscle weight because there's more education around the importance of losing, you know, fat and not muscle which is metabolically active tissue health supporting. Whereas if you just end up skinny fat you might be no better off than when you started depending on the person. So some of the more refined current fully being developed drugs are like these fat loss appetite suppressing agents with concurrent like thermogenic properties for energy expenditure and then muscle preservation mechanisms built in that inhibit myostatin or act through other pathways to try and keep the muscle on you.

[B]

Yeah, Brigham from ways to well was explaining that they're using some people rather are using GLP1s in conjunction with IGF and they're, they're combining a bunch of different things to offset at the bone density and muscle loss and then also encouraging weightlifting while they're doing it because a lot of people are just taking them and then just shriveling because look, if you Starve yourself. You will lose weight, but you're going to lose bone density, you're going to lose tissue, you're going to lose everything.

[A]

Yeah, that's like one of the, I think most important components of the usage of them is especially with women who might be otherwise not even integrating it into their regular life. They just end up eating less. Less of what is already a nutrient poor or protein poor diet and aren't strength training as much as I guess proportionally to men. It's becoming more prevalent among women obviously, which is great. But like the bone loss and muscle loss is significant among anybody who is depriving themselves of nutrients like that. And then.

[B]

And heart tissue too.

[A]

Yeah, like I mean everything, you know, you're basically self inducing malnutrition. I just.

[B]

Can't you just diet? I mean is it, is it. It's really a discipline thing with. Not with people that are severely obese. Like I'm in favor of GLP1s for people like if you're £500, which by. But I do have to say Jelly roll did it on the natch. He did it on the natch. He did not take GLP1s. He's not, he's not taking nothing, man. That guy is just working out every day and he just cut all the. Out of his life. He got rid of his phone. He didn't have a phone for. He has one now, but he didn't have a phone for the longest time. Even his, his when you text him his, you know the little image that shows up when you go phone, It's a phone with a red line through it. Yeah.

[A]

What does that mean?

[B]

Like just not interested in phones, man. He decided not to have a phone for a long time because is. He realized it was negative for his mental health and he wanted to lose a bunch of weight. But he did it naturally. He really did. He did it just through hard work and discipline and just, you know. Have you seen the images of him now?

[A]

No, bro.

[B]

There's him on stage with Alexander Volkanovsky and he doesn't even look the same guy. He's lost 200 plus pounds.

[A]

Oh, nice.

[B]

He looks fucking great. I mean it's amazing.

[A]

One of the things that's tough when it comes to like the assertion that it's more a willpower thing than anything in many cases I do think it is, is there are a lot of people with unhealthy behaviors and psychological like tendencies to just be, you know, it's easier to be lazy than not and.

[B]

Just, you know, it's also the food addiction because you have to eat.

[A]

But there are some people who just. If you ultimately have a genetically higher baseline, perpetual level of appetite signaling, it's kind of hard to tell that person. Like, just, you know, wrench it out, bro. Like, you got this. And it's like, I know a lot of people in the fitness industry.

[B]

Look at him. Look how much weight he's lost. Isn't incredible.

[A]

Yeah, it's great.

[B]

He looks great. It's really amazing.

[A]

No. Especially impressive for individuals who are that obese to make that big of a change. It's like, it's the hardest to make that first step and get that big of a weight cut.

[B]

Yeah. And then it's momentum after that. I watched an incredible video yesterday, one of the most motivational videos I've ever, ever seen. I'll send it to you, Jamie. It's this kid, and this guy is. He's out of shape. He's. He's got high body fat. And the video is him saying that he wants to work out like David Goggins for a hundred days. He doesn't work out at all. And he goes from. I'll send it to you, Jimmy. He goes from being this guy who's like, completely out of shape, shape to. At the end of the video, he does a Iron Man. You found it. Yeah. So this is the guy. So in the beginning, in the beginning, he's like, kind of fat and like, that's what he looks like. And you know, he's like, motivated by Goggins. So the first day he runs, he gets up at 5:30 in the morning and he runs 13 miles the first day. I mean, he's never. He doesn't run at all. He doesn't work out at all. He eats junk food. Food. He's running. He's running past McDonald's and he's all fat by the end of it, he's doing an ultra. Well, he does an ultra marathon halfway into it, and then by the end of it, he does an Iron Man. And now he regularly runs 100 mile races.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

He got down to 140 pounds. He's shredded now. It's really, really impressive. That's awesome because it's just all discipline. Look at the difference. 145, 9% body fat. He started out at 184, 27% body fat. And look, he's all lean now and healthy and he. He's running 100 mile races now. It's really amazing because he just did it with sheer willpower and Documented the whole thing. He's in agony. His ankle's all fucked up from running. So he swims and he swims in the pool, and then he decides to swim with weights on. He like, really becomes obsessed.

[A]

Have you seen the guy who fasted for a year straight?

[B]

Yes. That's an old story, right?

[A]

Yeah, but I think that's still the record for like longest period of not eating and just like adhering to a diet.

[B]

And he got vitamin ivs. And the guy who did that, what's interesting is he also lost skin. So his skin shrank along with his body, which I thought was fascinating.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I would imagine that to some extent there's some elasticity depending on how long you've been fat. And also like, like, I don't know, maybe just the tissue itself. There is some level of 382 days. I'm sure your body's fiending for energy from anywhere it can find it. If there's some way to. I don't know.

[B]

But I think the interesting thing is he didn't come around, come out of it looking like a lot of these people do, where they have to get all their skin removed.

[A]

You know, I mean, I feel like there's got to be loose skin to some extent.

[B]

I don't know, there's. I don't know if there's a shirt, but that was part of the narrative, is that his. His skin actually shrank along with his body because he wasn't eating at all.

[A]

I want to see that.

[B]

Does that make sense?

[A]

I mean, I was trying to play along for a sec, but now I'm like, there's not a pick. I don't know, dude.

[B]

Well, it was also. It's 1960, whatever it was.

[A]

Sounds like a interesting tale that might have passed through the grapevine.

[B]

Yeah, I wouldn't recommend that, though.

[A]

No, that sounds crazy.

[B]

And then once you start eating again, how do you just keep the floodgate gates from.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, that's the interesting thing is some people, psychologically, it's easier to adhere to something when they're full bore. And then like, I know a lot of people who. They'll do commit to a competition because they know I'm accountable to step on stage. And I don't want to look like when I'm on stage and they do it, they get a bunch of photos done. And then after they go off the rails and they're like right back to where they started within, you know, a month or two.

[B]

That happens to a lot of fighters. They get done with fighting and then they get really fat. It's really common.

[A]

It's really common.

[B]

Cuz they also develop real eating disorders because you're cutting weight all the time and.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I mean for some of them it's like you're basically like doing bodybuilder, essentially.

[B]

Well, Patty Pimblet's the best example of a current active fighter.

[A]

That guy's crazy, dude.

[B]

He gets so big, dude.

[A]

His moon face is like the best in the league. From.

[B]

So Here it says 3382 days. From June 14, 1965 through June 30 of 1966, he consumed only vitamins, electrolytes, and unspecified amount of yeast, a source of essential amino acids, and zero calorie beverages such as tea, coffee and sparkling water. Although he occasionally added milk and or sugar to the beverages, especially during the final weeks of the fast. Barbieri began his treatment in the hospital, but for most of the 382 days, he lived at home. Home. Okay. It says stool samples were not taken, but he reportedly went up to 48 days between stools.

[A]

Wow. Which sounds crazy, but it's like what's. They're gonna.

[B]

Yeah. What will be coming out. His starting weight was 456 and he. The fast officially stopped. July 60, 1966, he reached his goal weight of 180 pounds. Wow.

[A]

Yeah, that's nuts.

[B]

The next 10 days, doctors placed him on a diet of salt and then sugar in preparation for solid food. Though some sources record the fast being 392 days instead of 382. Wow.

[A]

Now one of the things that's tough is it's like, even though maybe that case study exists and there's people who just brute force willpower their way through it, some of those people otherwise might have genetically been able to tolerate, you know, the hunger signaling better than somebody else who literally cannot focus on work or anything when they're there that hungry. And it almost sometimes doesn't even come down to the diet quality as much as somebody might tell them. Yeah, it does, it does to some extent, but. And it's certainly getting rid of the shitty processed foods and getting on a good exercise regimen and doing all the things to set yourself up in the best position will probably take care of most people. But there are some individuals who just like at baseline, even on the inverse side, I know a lot of people who simply aren't hungry and they have to force feed themselves to gain muscle because they're just perpetually shredded and they have like the opposite problem because their hunger signaling is so low. So it's like people look at them as an example in the fitness industry of like, oh, this guy has the best discipline. He's like so shredded all the time. And in reality, that guy's like, I hate food.

[B]

That's so weird.

[A]

There's one guy in particular. His name's David Laid, and he's like, I don't know, like a teenage. Well, he's like in his 20s now, but teenagers look up to him as kind of like a fitness industry icon of aesthetics. And he's perpetually had a shredded six pack. He's pretty jacked, he's tall, he's handsome. And he literally says on camera, I hate eating. And he's like, serious about it. He's like, I can't stand having to eat meals.

[B]

What?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

It's not even just like to be a bodybuilder. Like, he's just like, I don't know.

[B]

What is he eating? How is that possible?

[A]

Good, high quality food.

[B]

Best picture I can find. I can't tell. Hell, you can't tell. It looks. Yeah, it looks like he's got some fat there. Yeah, it looks like he's got a bunch of extra skin there.

[A]

I mean, it's just like, how could he not. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

How could he not find a picture of that other guy? Who's the guy that they call the most shredded guy alive?

[A]

There's. Oh, helmet shrub.

[B]

Yes, that guy.

[A]

That guy's crazy.

[B]

Yeah. Find that guy. That's ridiculous.

[A]

What is it? It's H E L M U T. It's been a while since I've looked at this guy and then S T R E B L and did it come out? Helmet shredded is coming up. That guy. Helmet struggle.

[B]

Is this him? Yeah. Oh, Jesus. That. That is insane.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, that guy's physique is the man with 0% body fat. That's hilarious. That's not possible, folks.

[A]

You want to see even more shredded?

[B]

Is that really possible that he's got more. There's someone more shredded.

[A]

Yeah. Type in Andreas Munzer.

[B]

Oh, I've seen that guy. But what is this guy's body fat? I mean, zero. Zero is not possible. What is that, six.

[A]

Five? Five or six maybe? No, no, that would be like stage super, stage ready beyond most bodybuilders, even after the best of the best in terms of conditioning. So I don't know, maybe like six, seven. And it's kind of tough though, dude, because it's like some of these Guys.

[B]

They have like, oh, Jesus Christ. Go back to that picture. That's nuts.

[A]

That's like, aggressive filtering and sharpening to whatever.

[B]

Whatever it is. That's his real body. That's insane.

[A]

Yeah, even.

[B]

I mean, it's obviously like, the best possible lighting for that effect.

[A]

There's distribution of fat and water that some people. It just looks more shredder than another person who might otherwise store any excess fat on, like, their ass or, like, their love handles or, like, whatever. For a guy like that, not only is he diced and, like, obviously he's. He's just diced, but he has, like, a dry look to the skin that enhances the kind of perceived leanness. And it's like, I forgot what it is. It's not dick skin lean. I forgot what the. I forget what the terminology is, but it's like, yeah, it's like white guy something. And it's just like, if you're certain white physiques are known to look more like, you're almost so pale and dry that it, like, enhances the perceived leanness, if that makes, like, any sense whatsoever.

[B]

Well, that's the weirdest thing about bodybuilding, right? You have to be super dehydrated to look great, and you're almost dead.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And then you have to, you know, go chocolate body and stuff.

[B]

But those guys, they're like. They black out sometimes backstage, don't they?

[A]

Yeah. That's crazy.

[B]

Which guy's that?

[A]

That's helmet.

[B]

That's him.

[A]

4% body. I might be 4%. I might be totally butchering his name, by the way. So if I'm. I hope, bro Helmet. I hope I'm saying it right.

[B]

I would never wear a shirt. Why would I wear.

[A]

But it's like, you would not.

[B]

He's 47. Wow.

[A]

In this article, too, which is probably, like 5 to 10 years old.

[B]

What does it look like now? I wonder. I wonder if he keeps it up, because, I mean, I would be so hungry. Yeah, I, I.

[A]

Unless you're on a glp.

[B]

Oh, this is him. This is him now. Wow, that's crazy.

[A]

No, that's not. That's got to be the same photo someone else was.

[B]

Oh, somebody else put it up there. He has an ig.

[A]

It doesn't seem like that's one of the weird things when you're such an OG of the industry that you just have, like, weird residual fan pages and you don't even know if it's the guy or not.

[B]

What's that old guy? He was bald. The old days. He had like, the hair on the side.

[A]

Scooby.

[B]

Was that his name? I don't know, maybe white guy. He was like, famous Shredded guy back in the early days of bodybuilding. He was not big, he was thin, but he was like, super ripped. God, I can't remember his name.

[A]

Was he.

[B]

But he had, like, the hair on the side, like, weird. Like, old man bald. You know what didn't have a full shaved head?

[A]

Old man bald.

[B]

Yeah. Look like when people went Bald in the 50s and they didn't shave the side of their head.

[A]

Yeah, I, I, I'm sure if I saw it, I would know who you're talking.

[B]

He was famous for teaching. You got him.

[A]

I feel like you have enough.

[B]

What's his name? I don't get a name yet, but is this him? No, no, that's not him. That's, it's older, I bet you from a long time ago.

[A]

Who's the, what's your preferred AI? Try search tool. Use that and type in what you just said.

[B]

Yeah, put that into perplexity.

[A]

Old man bald. OG Fitness influencer. You have to give me a better.

[B]

Search for a time period. Like 90s. Yeah, yeah, 90s. Yeah, 90s.

[A]

90S.

[B]

Oh, God. His name is at the tip of my tongue. Oh, this is driving me crazy. Shredded. Yeah, he would teach people how to be shredded. He had like this protocol for how to lose weight, but his whole thing was being shredded. Shredded. He wasn't that big. I mean, he was, you know, fit, but not, not like, you know, bodybuilder jacked.

[A]

And he was Caucasian.

[B]

Yes. Yeah, it's telling me.

[A]

Billy Blanks.

[B]

No, no, no, no, no, no. White guy.

[A]

I was gonna say Athlean X, but there's no way that's who you're talking about. No, no, no, no. He's got great hair.

[B]

It's a long time ago. No, Athlean X has got wonderful hair. It's Tony Little. It's not right either. Speaking of hair, there's that new thing that is the study out of UCLA where they're gonna be able to grow hair. Hair back.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Isn't that wild? Are you pumped? You don't believe it or not?

[A]

Dude, it's like every week it's some new thing, like rodent regrew hair after being shaved bald using UCLA mediated broccoli extract or whatever the. And it's like, now every Reddit scientist is dumping fucking broccoli juice on their head or whatever. It's just like, never really pans out ultimately. And it's pretty Shocking. I think I even mentioned this at one point that we have all these, you know, refined AI tools and drugs and some of the most developed and refined side. Nearly side effect free drugs for some things that are pretty significant, you know, roots of disease. But like hair loss, like no one has a clue right. How to fix it with those.

[B]

Or dick size. Hair loss and dick size, two big.

[A]

Ones we know to max out your genetic capacity for dick size though.

[B]

Well, the nuttiest thing that I've been paying attention lately is so many guys that are getting their legs broken to get taller.

[A]

I got an update on that guy if you wanted to.

[B]

Oh, the Sasquatch guy?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How's he doing?

[A]

Doing well. I mean he's walking, but it's like not perfect.

[B]

But it's been a few years, right?

[A]

Yeah, but he's also like the most extreme edge case example of. It's almost if. If it was unfair to use a guy as a reference point. It's like this is the heaviest, tallest example. So it's like if anyone.

[B]

Cuz he was 6ft when he started and he got to 6, 6 and he was not walking like a year later.

[A]

Yeah. So he didn't crutch. He said, let's see, I could send this to you if you want to put it up on the screen. Or I could just show you here.

[B]

Yeah, just text it to me. What is he. Is he okay?

[A]

I mean, he got sued by the company that did his surgery.

[B]

He got sued?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Why did he get sued?

[A]

Because he was talking about all like the mishaps that happened when he got. Because it's kind of like there are good clinics and bad clinics in terms of quality. And he kind of was, I guess too forthcoming about like I did a podcast with them and they didn't like it.

[B]

They're suing him?

[A]

Yeah, literally. Well, they. They did sue him. Yeah.

[B]

How can you sue someone for telling the truth about a procedure that didn't work out so great?

[A]

I mean, great question. That's what I said.

[B]

How could you win? Maybe you could sue.

[A]

Maybe it's just like bury them in fees or something.

[B]

I don't know. Yeah, probably.

[A]

All right, check see if this came through. Hopefully my LTE is good.

[B]

Nope, not yet.

[A]

You can airdrop it to my computer.

[B]

If it pops up. Yeah, there you go. All right, so he's still.

[A]

Yeah, one sec.

[B]

God damn, man. Yeah, it's. I was watching this guy yesterday on Instagram, this fairly thin kid. He wasn't. Wasn't big, but he, he gained five inches, you know, he was like five, five. Now he's five, 10. And yeah, real happy with it. But I was like, Jesus Christ. And a year later, again in crutches one year later. Took him a year and a half before he could walk normally.

[A]

I mean, some people, that's still worth it to not have to.

[B]

Yeah, I guess.

[A]

Guess.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, if you're five feet tall and then all of a sudden you're five, seven, I guess.

[A]

Here, see if it. Did it come through for you.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I was trying to figure out what, what to play.

[A]

I air dropped it. Oh, I got it. I got, I got on the screen.

[B]

Okay, so. So this is 20, 23. Oh, wow. He did it way back then.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, my God, look how skinny his legs are. That's crazy. How skinny his legs were to have that much mass up top. That's crazy. Yeah, that's probably the problem, right?

[A]

Well, it definitely is the, like I said, the most extreme of circumstances to impose for what was seemingly a poor quality clinic. And then also trying to go from a height that's objectively tall to a height that's objectively extremely tall with the most heavy guy that's probably ever done the procedure. You would think, yeah.

[B]

So he's £300.

[A]

I think he was way more than that.

[B]

You would say, like, hey, man, if you're going to do this, lose upper body weight and then gain it back. Back so you can give your legs a chance to grow. Oh, my God. That's so crazy. It just, it makes me freak out because I'm getting anxiety. They're just going to snap and he's going to fall over.

[A]

Yeah. There definitely is something a little bit unnatural about watching even like the strikes on the ground.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It makes you feel like something's just.

[B]

Going to, like, snap.

[A]

Yeah. But to his credit, I mean, like, the guy literally couldn't even walk before and he's. He's optimistic about it still and he thinks he's going to make a full recovery.

[B]

So there is now November 2025. So that's two years later. Two years later, he can walk there if he has to run from a fire. You know what I mean?

[A]

He's fucked for sure. Yeah.

[B]

Well, also the mechanics, like, your body's used to moving legs that are 6 inches shorter, and now, like, the knee has different pressure and, you know, it's got to be really fucking strange.

[A]

He said. Let's see, bones are mostly healed, just have a lot of weakness. As legs strengthen, the pain decreases and the spasms also he's got to be.

[B]

On the sauce too, right?

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

So even that's not helping.

[A]

I mean if anything it would be, it would help in some of the recovery for bone but it would also keep him yolked and like more pressure on that too. So like maybe it's. Yeah, it's a bit of a double edged sword there. He says major hurdles cleared infection, knee tendinopathy will probably walk normal within a couple months. I can hide hop but we'll need to strengthen much more in order to really jump, jog and run. Applying to have a US doctor fully fix any remaining issues but for now legs are good.

[B]

Where'd he get his, his surgery done?

[A]

It was. I did a podcast with them last year and I think it was Thailand clinic where it's like a bargain.

[B]

He got a bargain. Did he do a Groupon?

[A]

It. It definitely wasn't the best choice.

[B]

This guy got it. He's nine years post surgery. Nine. They were doing this nine years ago.

[A]

So this guy, as far as I know he is a bit of a unique case in that he was actually correcting an asymmetry. So he had. I'm almost positive, I don't want to misspeak. I'm sure he'll correct it if he sees this, but I'm pretty sure he had one leg was like unusually asymmetrically shorter than the other one and then he was kind of evening it out to what would otherwise be his is you know like genetic symmetrical match.

[B]

Oh, interesting.

[A]

So there's different applications to which people do this and it's not always just like pure vanity. I want to get you know, really tall. It's sometimes like to correct a functional like asymmetry. It's just, you know, a lot of people you hear about the cases of I want to get really tall for superficial reasons.

[B]

It's just a matter of time before they're just genetically engineering everybody to look like Thor. You know, this is a matter of time.

[A]

I think there's a lot of people that don't want this to work though too because it's like if it's almost too easy or like, you know, doable. It's just like some people. I see a lot of people unreasonably on these people and it's just like, you know, just take the content for what it is, you know.

[B]

Yeah, no, that's true but, but I'm saying about with the genetic engineering there's a lot of people that are not want that to work either but tough. You're not going to hold back some science because you don't like the fact that if, like, especially if someone has poor genetics and they just look gross and their whole life they've looked gross. And then all of a sudden, something comes along. It's like, and now you're a supermodel and you're six foot six, and like, Mike, it's you. What the happened? I went to this clinic in Turkey, and look what they did.

[A]

Yeah, that was like. You were asking about what? We talk about this before.

[B]

Bone smashing.

[A]

What? I just saw a video about this.

[B]

Then thought it was fake, but this seems like a place to find out if it's real.

[A]

Oh, yeah. So people are like. They're like, yeah, what? Whatever they can do. I'm pretty sure this is not like an. It's like a clickbaity thing among the people that do this stuff.

[B]

Wait a minute, wait a minute. He's hitting himself with a hammer. A kid was just using, like, a trophy, just banging his face all day.

[A]

He's like, I've been doing this for years. So they, like, think that they can induce acute, like, bone remodeling in the area to kind of like. Like, enhance, like, I don't know, zygoma development or what have you and get better, you know, whatever asymmetry or deficiency they deem to have cosmetically corrected. And some of them, they're just punching their face essentially before they go out at night time to get, like, a temporary pump in their cheeks. So, like, think about back in the day when you went to the club and you're like, I want to hit push ups first. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

So it's like you're. You're laughing and they're probably like, bro, it's the same thing.

[B]

You're punching your cheekbones to get them stick out more. Oh, God, it's so dumb. There's so much out there, man.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Listen, man, this is great. Congratulations on this. So for everybody that wants to buy it, Gorilla Mind. I've been drinking it for two hours now. Three almost. It's great. Works.

[A]

Oh, thank you.

[B]

I feel like I haven't had a cup of coffee the entire podcast. That's. That's unusual for me, but it tastes good, too. How many flavors you got?

[A]

A lot, man. 15 plus 15. We got to narrow it down to the heavy to the best ones, though, to really dial in the catalog.

[B]

But if somebody wants to buy this, order it. Where's it at?

[A]

Gorilla mind.com. we're in GNC's vitamin shops. Across the country. We're going to be in circle case soon and soon to be more spots, hopefully.

[B]

Congratulations on that and for everything else that you do. Gorilla mind dot com.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And Merrick health dot com if you want to get preventative medicine expert oversight when it comes to diagnostics optimization etc.

[B]

All right, brother. Well, it's always good to hang out with you.

[A]

Very fun. Thanks for having me, man.

[B]

My pleasure, my pleasure. And again, congratulations. This is legit.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

I'm gonna buy it. All right. Bye, everybody. See you.

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

Doug. Here we have the Limu Emu in its natural habitat helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual.

[A]

Fascinating.

[B]

It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug. Limu is that guy with the binoculars what watching us?

[A]

Cut the camera.

[B]

They see us. Only pay for what you [e-mail] Liberty Liberty Savings.

[A]

Very underwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company.

[B]

And affiliates excludes Massachusetts.