Ethan Hawke (2:03)

Hated their jobs. You know, they would go to work and their life happened on the periphery of their employment. You know, my mom would take the train to New York, and so she wouldn't get home till 7:30, something. She would leave at dawn, and she was just miserable at work. I mean. And I went to this rehearsal and everyone was having. They were talking about whether or not God existed. They were talking about what they believed in. They would dress up in these crazy outfits. And then we did the play. And they got a standing ovation and it was. It was so much fun. And it was the first time I saw you could do this for a living. You know, a lot of the actors aren't people you've heard of or anything like that, but they were real actors and they loved their job. And the rehearsal room was so kind of thrilling watching them figure out where people should stand and what was important and what was the scene about and what was the theme of the play and how could this scene fit in with the larger context? And I just decided that's what I wanted to do. And. And a lot of kids want to act, so that doesn't mean very much. But through this other friend of mine, I started hearing about open casting calls in New York, and I asked my mom if I could go on some of these big auditions. And again, she said, is it going to cost me any money? She said if I paid for my own train fare, I could go to these auditions. So I took some Polaroids and.

Ethan Hawke (3:28)

Went on a few of these big auditions, and I got one of them. And it was for this big. In 1984, it was a $30 million movie directed by the guy who'd just done Gremlins, right, Joe Dante. And I thought I was a made man. I mean, it was just. It was. It was absolutely incredible to be sucked out of suburban America and brought to la. My first scene partner was River Phoenix. And all of a sudden I'm in la. And.

Ethan Hawke (3:58)

You know, my mom couldn't quit her job or anything, so my mom had a really turbulent relationship with her mother. But her mother. Her mother and she didn't really know each other, and so her mother said she'd be my guardian. And my mom designed this as a way to maybe have a family healing. But my grandmother was a piece of work, and we lived together in Koreatown. That's what they called it. And it was wild. And she. I remember we drove into Paramount Studios. You know, you can picture it, the image from the Godfather, and you had the big gates. And my grandmother had always wanted to be a movie star. Wow. You know, and she had. She was from here. She's from Austin, Texas. Well, really Fort Worth. But, you know, she would talk about going to see Gone with the Wind at the Paramount here in Austin, you know, and she would. She would watch Gone with the Wind, you know, three times a week. And she had dreamed of being a movie star. And I remember we were in a big van driving me to set the first day, and we went through the gates of Paramount opening up, and she Was smoking an Eve cigarette in the van. Of course, it's 1984, and she's just like, my first time in Hollywood as a guardian, you know, And. And so the whole child actor thing is. Was a trip. And I finished the movie. And there's a lot of drama involved in the five was to complete that story, but I finished it. The movie was a big turkey.

Joe Rogan (5:28)

How old were you at the time?

Ethan Hawke (5:29)

14. River and I were both 14. We.

Ethan Hawke (5:35)

See. We look so young in that picture, right? But you gotta understand, you know, when you're that age, you think you're dying to be 18, dying to be 16. We went off river and I stole a pack of Camel cigarettes because we both wanted to be like James Dean.

Ethan Hawke (5:52)

And we had a lot of fun. That's the truth. But the movie came out, and I remember river and I going to the bathroom at the premiere. And we'd grown a lot from the time we shot the movie to the time it came out. And nobody in the bathroom really recognized us. And they were all talking about what a turkey the movie was, how terrible it was. And I remember just looking in the eyes like it wasn't the narrative. We thought, you know, we. We had bought into the dream that, you know, we were going to be whatever teen icon we were thinking of at the time, and.

Ethan Hawke (6:29)

And it died a quick and salty death. My dream. And I went back to high school and put away my dream of being an actor. It seemed like it was this isolated almost like, choose your own adventure book or something, where I got to see what Hollywood was like, but then have it denied. And it kind of like putting your hand in a flame. It was not a good feeling when it was over. And.

Ethan Hawke (6:57)

Then, you know, four years or so went by, and I graduated high school and I was off at college. And I heard about these auditions for a movie called Dead Poets Society. And I hated college. I was miserable. And I thought, I'll take the bus in and I'll go on one of these open casting calls again. And. And if I get the part, this is what I decided. If I get the part, I'll do that. And if I don't get the part, I'll join the Merchant Marines and be like Jack London. That was my fantasy at the time. I remember. I remember calling my sister and saying, all right, there's seven parts. This is how dumb I was. I was like, there's seven parts. If I don't get one of those, I must suck. You know, so. Which is not true at all. But I ended up getting one of them and. And I dropped out of college and the. The success of Dead Poet Society sent me, you know, was like a trajectory of it shot me down a different course of water than I was on before.

Joe Rogan (7:55)

It's probably a much better path than the first film. Being successful and you become a child star.

Ethan Hawke (8:01)

I cannot tell you how grateful I am for that first experience. First of all, if for no other reason than in the success of Dead Poets Society, I didn't take it seriously at all. I didn't even realize that the movie was successful until a couple years later because I had so braced myself for failure, you know?

Joe Rogan (8:21)

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Ethan Hawke (9:03)

You.

Joe Rogan (9:03)

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Ethan Hawke (9:57)

Ooh.

Joe Rogan (9:58)

And if you're loyal to the white can. Cool. Just know that you've got options. Visit Monster Energy.com to learn more.

Ethan Hawke (10:05)

Option of failure.

Joe Rogan (10:06)

Anyway, because of the first experience.

Ethan Hawke (10:07)

Yeah. Because everybody's saying, oh, the movie's so great. I'm like, yeah, they said this last time doesn't mean anything, you know, and so it kind of taught me at a really young age about to ask yourself why you're doing something, you know, like, are you Doing it for the result of what happens, or are you doing it to do it? And I, by coming back to acting a few years later, I was just fully braced for it not to go well, and it was still going to be worth it. And so I think it gave me a slight bit of ballast to handle the success of death.

Joe Rogan (10:42)

You went into it for the enjoyment of doing it rather than thinking, I.

Ethan Hawke (10:45)

Just hadn't been a star. I had no expectations, but I was certain I wasn't going to be a star. I was positive of it. I saw it as a way to make some money and maybe learn about writing and learn about film and a way to get out of college. Now, what happened is, when I got there, I met all these other young men who were in love with acting and that I started watching movies with them and talking about movies with them and seeing the light in their eyes. And we'd go to set and there was Robin Williams. You know, we had Peter Weir, who had just directed Witness, one of my favorite movies of all time at that point. And he was a master. I mean, he was not a lightweight human being. He was a heavyweight human being. And he would lead rehearsals and he would talk about acting and performance in a way that I hadn't. Well, you know, I heard people talk about it that way when we were doing St. Joan, when I was doing the. Like, he talked about it like we were making art and like we were on a mission beyond success or failure. And it was. Was an invitation to a lifestyle, a life commitment. And what I didn't realize at the time, that's what that movie's about too, you know. So the movie itself is a guided meditation on carpe diem. Right. It's a meditation on gather ye rosebuds while ye may. I sound my barbaric yawp over the rooftops of the world. You know, this is kind of stuff that I was getting inundated with in rehearsal. And so that was. I didn't. I wouldn't have told you that on the day I wrapped Dead Poets Society that my life had changed when. But looking back, it had.

Joe Rogan (12:21)

It had planted the seeds.

Ethan Hawke (12:22)

Yeah.

Joe Rogan (12:23)

I was thinking, I. I've never met a person who became famous at 14 who came out of it okay. I've yet to her, Jody Foster School never met anybody that became famous very young.

Ethan Hawke (12:37)

I read every interview she does for exactly that reason.

Ethan Hawke (12:43)

I have. It's. It's so difficult. I tell parents all the time, like children, acting is a wonderful thing. Put them in the school play. It's so good for them. Get them singing lessons. It's so good for them. Singing, the church choir, it's so good for them.

Ethan Hawke (12:59)

But to be a professional actor at a young age is.

Ethan Hawke (13:05)

It's dangerous and in extremely insidious ways that are very, very hard to perceive when it's happening.

Joe Rogan (13:12)

That's a great way to put it. Yeah. I think it completely impedes your developmental process. The way I liken to is like concrete. When you make concrete, there's a bunch of very specific ingredients. You put them with very specific mixture. Like, you have to have this amount of water, that amount of sand, this amount of rocks, all the. If it's off, it's never fixed. You can't add water. After it's cured, it's done. It's fucked forever. This is bad concrete now. And this is what happens to a lot of young human beings that become famous, whether it's through acting or singing or.

Ethan Hawke (13:50)

Yeah. And it's not just fame. That analogy works for all walks of life, really. You know, if you have a really. Something really traumatic happens in childhood, it's very hard to recover. It's a tremendous amount of work to recover. And I agree with you. Like, I think celebrity is like. It's like a tiny drop of mercury or it's poison. It's poison for your brain. Now, if you're mature, you can handle it. And if you get it in slow, like, I got it in slow increments. Dead Poet Society happened. I had a little taste of fame, but I wasn't. Nobody knew my name. I was.

Joe Rogan (14:26)

You go to restaurants?

Ethan Hawke (14:27)

Yeah. I was that kid from Dead Poets Society. Oh, look at him. Yeah. Blah, blah, blah. And I got it in slow. I got to develop. What do you call it when you. You get a little bit of poison?

Joe Rogan (14:37)

Like a resistance.

Ethan Hawke (14:38)

Yeah, resistance to it. And it came so slowly for me. I even think about people. I remember the weekend Pretty Woman came out. Two days before, no one had ever heard of Julia Roberts. Two days afterwards, she's the most famous woman in America. I think that's a huge thing to absorb. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

Ethan Hawke (15:02)

And I know that my personality couldn't have handled it. I've. I've worked hard to handle it as poorly or well as I have, you know.

Joe Rogan (15:11)

Yeah, it's. I think you going back to school and living a normal life for, you know, five, six years or whatever it was before you left college, that's. I just think that's critical. That's the developmental process of the normal maturation of a person when they go through adolescence, teenage years, into college, adult. Then you can kind of handle things. And then maybe you're also fortunate that, like you said, dead Poet Society, not. You know, you didn't get too huge from it. You just got some. Some juice.

Ethan Hawke (15:45)

A little bit of juice, a little bit of confidence. That was a nice. You know, it's like something's happening. Something's happening. But then I had the years after that.

Ethan Hawke (15:53)

That, you know, I have to give some. A shout out to my mom, who was just so devastated that I dropped out of college. I mean, she just couldn't stop crying about it, you know, and it filled me with.

Ethan Hawke (16:10)

Desire to show her that I was taking responsibility for my own education, which is what I said I would do. And so I started a theater company. And I. I worked really hard at a lot of different things. Writing and reading and thinking. And mostly with this theater company where I met a lot of young people who were interested in what I was doing. But we weren't paid any money. And we worked our asses off and we built sets and we. You know, it was fun. I don't wanna lie. We had a great time. But it was a college experience that I gave myself through this theater company. And that changed me because I met a lot of people who were really excellent at what I do, that weren't making a lot of money. Met a lot of people who loved it as much as I do, who weren't getting their picture taken, who weren't being told they were special. I knew how gifted they were. I could understand. I had a little bit of bal. And a little bit of humility to go along with the superficial elements of. Of my chosen field.

Joe Rogan (17:10)

Do you ever think about, like, what would have happened if that guy didn't invite you to do that play when you were 12? It's kind of crazy how there's these pivotal moments in your life.

Ethan Hawke (17:19)

You know, he just died. Nagel Jackson was his name. And he's. He was a great theater director. I mean, the. I don't know if you feel this way. I don't know what. I have a sense often, and I know this sounds really dopey to say, but I sometimes have a sense of a guardian angel, of some kind of. Why did this guy talk to me in the parking lot? And why was he such a kind, decent human being?

Ethan Hawke (17:47)

Throughout my life, I have had opportunities presented to me. And I had enough intuition and enough intelligence maybe to follow it. But I do think about. I think about it all the Time.

Ethan Hawke (18:03)

All the ways that are imperceptible in the Tuesday and Wednesday and Thursday that they happen, but where your life is kind of guided and it doesn't really feel by your own doing.

Joe Rogan (18:16)

Yeah, I know it sounds wacky to say, but I believe it too. I mean, I don't publicly profess it as the definite reason why everything happens, but there's a bunch of. I think most people that have gotten anywhere in life, there's moments in their life, like, how did that happen? Like, what. Why did this feel like it was a. A destined path? Like, why. Why was I compelled to try this? What was the. What was the thought behind that? And what am I being guided? Is there. Is fate real?

Ethan Hawke (18:51)

I wonder how other people feel. But I do think one of the keys.

Ethan Hawke (18:58)

I think that probably everybody has a path that is there for them. And the trick about knowing yourself, the value and taking time to, like, be still with yourself and listen to yourself. You know that there's an expression, the voice of our spirit is extremely gentle. And it's difficult to hear it. It's quiet. But if you can hear it, that thing, intuition, that thing, the path idea of a guardian angel, whatever, you can see what's happening around you if you're in touch with yourself. And if you're not in touch with yourself, you keep tripping on the same. You're not seeing the angles and the roads that might be available to you. So I do think that part of the trick is taking time to. To actually get to know yourself so that you can see the light when it appears. Because I bet you everybody has him.

Joe Rogan (19:55)

I bet they do, too. I bet there's also.

Joe Rogan (20:00)

A real factor in recognizing the misery of your mother's life, what she was doing, where she didn't take these chances. She didn't. She had responsibility. She was.

Ethan Hawke (20:13)

Yeah. But can I tell you something funny about that?

Joe Rogan (20:14)

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Ethan Hawke (21:47)

So she was 18 when I was born. Right. So that's, that's tough. You don't really have a childhood. Right.

Joe Rogan (21:55)

Right.

Ethan Hawke (21:55)

And. But in her mid-40s, she took it, she joined the Peace corps in her mid-40s after, you know, once I was okay and it was right around the time my oldest, Maya, was born.

Joe Rogan (22:09)

Are you a single single child?

Ethan Hawke (22:11)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think I was a big part of her, on her brain a lot worrying. It was a big Is this kid going to be all right? Is this kid going to be all right? It makes a lot of noise in your head, you know.

Joe Rogan (22:24)

Sure.

Ethan Hawke (22:25)

And, and I was all right. And she looked around and I remember her saying that, you know, if an accident happened today, when they do happen and I died, I would be extremely disappointed in myself. She was probably, I don't know, 46 or something when she said this, younger than I am now.

Ethan Hawke (22:47)

And she said, I don't want to be disappointed in my life. So she joined the Peace Corps, which she wasn't all that impressed with. But they sent her to Romania and she fell in love with Romania and she fell in.

Ethan Hawke (23:03)

The people there. And she got obsessed with the racism against the gypsy culture, the Roma culture, I'm supposed to call it. And it reminded her a lot of growing up here in the 60s and the racism she saw as a young girl. And she just decided to do something about it. She spent 25 years there and she got thousands of kids into school who wouldn't have gone to school. She just recently retired back to Fort Worth. And it's, she's a different woman than the woman I grew up with, which is, I think, a remarkable story. I love both the women, the one, the woman now and the woman I grew up with, I don't want to paint some portrait that she was miserable. She had so much. She just was miserable at work.

Joe Rogan (23:45)

Right.

Ethan Hawke (23:46)

You know, she was not a miserable person to be with. The opposite. And she kept that fire in herself alive enough to. When the window presented itself, she took it and she took it hard. I mean, she disappeared for a quarter of a century to Romania as a young woman born in Fort Worth. Right. And that's a wild thing to do, and she made a huge impact, and I'm extremely proud of her and proud of the work that she's done, and so is everybody who knows her. And now she's in Fort Worth doing her thing and has a different sense of herself because she followed her own intuition and her own path.

Joe Rogan (24:24)

It just. She had to deal with the responsibility of raising a child for a long time.

Ethan Hawke (24:28)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan (24:31)

Well, that. That develops a different kind of character too, you know, the character of a woman trying to raise a child and also a boy. You know, I have all daughters.

Ethan Hawke (24:44)

You do? Yeah, I have three daughters and one boy.

Joe Rogan (24:47)

Yeah, yeah. All my friends who have boys, like, dude, it is so much harder. It's just that you just. You're trying to keep them from burning the house down.

Ethan Hawke (24:55)

Yeah. It was a pain, of course, and.

Joe Rogan (24:58)

If you're a single child, you know, but I. She must have gotten some inspiration from your path, from your choices.

Ethan Hawke (25:08)

I wonder. You'd have to ask her. I think.

Ethan Hawke (25:13)

She had, in her own way, went for it because everybody told her not to have a baby. And she wanted to, and she didn't want to run with the pack now. She didn't. I don't think when you're 18, you don't understand the ramifications of the decision of having a child.

Joe Rogan (25:29)

Right.

Ethan Hawke (25:29)

You know, how, you know, permanent. You know, I remember she told me when Maya was born, well, congratulations. You know, you now have something to worry about the rest of your life.

Ethan Hawke (25:41)

You know?

Joe Rogan (25:43)

Yeah. I think it's a gift, though. I mean, I certainly think it changes you as a human being in.

Joe Rogan (25:50)

In my case, the most positive ways possible. I could imagine being a single mother, though, it's a much more difficult position to be in.

Ethan Hawke (26:02)

And there's a lot of pressure on women, you know?

Joe Rogan (26:06)

Sure.

Ethan Hawke (26:08)

You know, if. If you work, you're a bad mother. If you're just a stay at home mom, you're not a good, strong woman, you know, I mean, they're damned if they do. They're damned if they Don't. That's the position they get put in.

Joe Rogan (26:19)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, It's.

Ethan Hawke (26:22)

It.

Joe Rogan (26:23)

All those experiences when as an actor, I mean, one of the more fascinating things to me about watching people is how they can assume different identities. Like, and how critical is it to have had so many different people in your life and different life experiences to draw from, to try to understand things through their eyes? If you're a regular person running through. If you're a stockbroker, you're running through the world thinking like a stockbroker, you know, you're not thinking, what would it be like to be a janitor? What is it like to be this guy who's trying to raise a family and he's got a drug dealer in his neighborhood that's causing problems? And your life is this constant state of drama. Like, you're drawing from all these different experiences. So having had, like, not. I mean, I wouldn't say it's. Your life was complicated, but it sounds like you have a really good mom, but complicated, like, and not necessarily that stable in that way. You're young and you're, you know, you're trying this thing out and you're going off to Hollywood and then you're coming back and going to college. Like, having all these different bizarre interactions with people in life experiences. How much do you draw upon that when you're trying to, like, create a character?

Ethan Hawke (27:38)

Well, that's a really big question.

Joe Rogan (27:41)

Is.

Ethan Hawke (27:42)

Well, I. So I have to break it into parts.

Joe Rogan (27:44)

It started getting bigger as I was asking.

Ethan Hawke (27:45)

Yeah, yeah. Because it's kind of two parts, but the. The first part about drawing on a character is touching on my favorite aspect of my life and my job. Most people. If you're an actuary, you're an actuary. You think in numbers. You think in this. This is. And it's your job. You have to.

Joe Rogan (28:03)

Yeah.

Ethan Hawke (28:03)

You know, you. I have.

Ethan Hawke (28:06)

I got to play a World War II vet. Got taken out to basic training. I got to read World War II veterans journals over and over again. I got to wear the clothes they wore.

Ethan Hawke (28:17)

I was working that movie for a few months, reading all kinds of books, watching documentaries about that. Then that movie's over. Moving on. Now I'm gonna get cast as a LA cop. Gonna do ride arounds through Los Angeles in the backseat of a cop car right when the crash unit thing was happening. And I'm thinking like a cop. And I'm not. It's not. It's even. It's. It's different than being a journalist and writing about it. I'm really trying to imagine being them. And I'm not looking at it from a judgmental point of view. I don't have an agenda about whether they're a good person or a bad person or whether this army sergeant should have made that decision or that one. I'm thinking, why did he make it? Why did he make it? Why did he do that? Yeah, right. I play a jazz musician, a drug addict, right? I'm not sitting there judging him or what a bad person. You know, I'm thinking, why do you do it? You know, it's, it's a painkiller. Why is he taking it? Where's this music come from? Why is it so important to him? Why does he practice 12 hours a day? What is that about? You know, all these characters are these invitations to.

Ethan Hawke (29:32)

A. Expand your own sense of what it, what identity means. Like what is, who is Joe Rogan, right? And who Joe Rogan is with his mom is a little different than he's watching the super bowl with his best friends. Who Joe Rogan is at 40 is different than he is at 20. We, we have inside of us so many aspects to ourselves. You know, when you're, we're in, in love, you, you change when you see your child for the first time. You change your, your, your biology, your chemicals start to shift a little bit. If you're in a violent situation, you know, the, your molecular structure alters a little bit and you start to realize that that's not you and that's not you, and that's not you. They're all you. And that's what performing is like. And you start to.

Ethan Hawke (30:22)

See society and see yourself and see a continuity that is really kind of exciting. I've had.

Ethan Hawke (30:31)

If you don't get ruined by.

Ethan Hawke (30:34)

Oh, breaking your arm, patting yourself in the back or something like that. I've met a bunch of older actors who've lived really interesting lives that I've learned. It's like I once had dinner with Vanessa Redgrave. This old English actress. She spent her life doing Shakespeare and Chekhov and Beckett and Tennessee Williams. She spent her life with some of the greatest minds of the last 50 years. And she carries that with her. She's powerfully intelligent and powerfully humble woman. And it's, it's like.

Ethan Hawke (31:12)

Being next to somebody you really admire. You know, a master craftsman. Doesn't matter what the craft is. When they, when you take it to a high level, it has a lot to teach you. So anyway, that was a multi part question. The other thing that part of your question is how did I stay balanced? And a lot of it had to do with my father who.

Ethan Hawke (31:31)

Has. He doesn't care about celebrity. He doesn't particularly think it's very interesting and not in a judgmental way. Really cares about integrity and whether you're a good person and whether you tell the truth. And it doesn't. It's not interesting to him how much money you make. That's not where his value system is placed on whether he's naturally suspicious of people who want too much attention. Naturally suspicious of that in me, which was good for me.

Joe Rogan (32:01)

It's a good suspicion.

Ethan Hawke (32:02)

It's a healthy suspicion.

Joe Rogan (32:04)

Yeah.

Ethan Hawke (32:04)

He was very realistic about the chances I had of making a profession out of this. That's not a bad thing. You know, everybody says so great to tell people to follow your dreams. And it is important to follow your dreams. But it's also important to be realistic and have a plan and take care of yourself. And. And when you say you're going to do something, to do it, to show up when you're asked to tell the truth, all these things that. So.

Ethan Hawke (32:32)

Whenever things would start to go well, I had this person in my life that's very important to me who doesn't place a value on anything superficial. And when we talked about why it's so hard to meet young people in this profession who make it, what starts to happen regardless of how good or not good your parents are or something, your circle can get infiltrated with a lot of people trying to make money off you and. And that's dangerous because they don't care about you.

Joe Rogan (33:06)

Yeah, that is an issue. There's an issue of people trying to get you to take work that you really shouldn't take just because they're going to get a percentage of it or.

Ethan Hawke (33:13)

It'S going to be good for you in the next three years, but they don't have your long term.

Joe Rogan (33:17)

Right.

Ethan Hawke (33:18)

You know what is going to be good for the 65 year old version of you?

Joe Rogan (33:22)

Right.

Ethan Hawke (33:22)

You know, is this like you said. Yeah. If I could, if I could have decided my Life Explorers would been a huge hit, it would have been ET big. And you know what? I wouldn't be here on this talk show today. You know, so I don't want to be in charge of my whole life in that way.

Joe Rogan (33:36)

You know, maybe you would, but it would be different. You'd be coming out of rehab.

Ethan Hawke (33:39)

Oh, for sure.

Joe Rogan (33:39)

I'd be a Charlie Sheen story.

Ethan Hawke (33:41)

Yeah, dude. I'd be on marriage 18. Who by.

Joe Rogan (33:44)

The way was a fantastic guy to talk to.

Ethan Hawke (33:46)

I bet he was. Yeah. I listened to it. It was fantastic.

Joe Rogan (33:48)

Wonderful guy. Like a sweetheart of a guy. A guy who went through the exact opposite of what I'm saying is good for you.

Ethan Hawke (33:57)

If you survive.

Joe Rogan (33:58)

Yeah.

Ethan Hawke (33:59)

Anything is a learning tool.

Joe Rogan (34:00)

Right?

Ethan Hawke (34:01)

Right. I mean, some of you, you must have this. Some of the wisest people I know have been through the 12 step program.

Joe Rogan (34:09)

Yes.

Ethan Hawke (34:10)

And so addiction and misery can be an unbelievable teacher. If you can. If you pull yourself out of it.

Joe Rogan (34:20)

If you survive.

Ethan Hawke (34:20)

If you survive. It's not. I wouldn't wish it for my children. It's not a dare I want them to take. Oh, hey. One path to wis. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A lot of my friends died from it, but a couple of them are really wise from it. Read a book. Okay. It's right. I remember. It's funny, even as you said. I remember when I was about 24, starting to get successful, I met my friend Richard Linkletter, and we were hanging out in New York, and we met this really cool. This guy we really admired. Fancy pants writer, really badass. You know, you kind of just. And we were smoking cigarettes. Well, Rick wasn't, of course, but we're shooting pool, and this guy said to me, you know what? You're almost interesting. He said to me, you know what you gotta do is you go. Gotta. Gotta go down to Mexico and disappear for a couple years. You know, live life a little bit. Then you'll be somebody. And the guy, finally, when the night we're walking home with Rick, and Rick said, let me tell you what you don't need to do.

Ethan Hawke (35:18)

What do you do? Read some William Burroughs. That might be a good idea. Read some Hunter S. Thompson. Skip the addiction path.

Joe Rogan (35:25)

Yeah.

Ethan Hawke (35:25)

You know, learn what you don't have to. You don't have to do it. You know, you don't need to. That's. That's not the path to wisdom.

Joe Rogan (35:33)

Right.

Ethan Hawke (35:33)

You know, it has worked for a handful of people, but most of us. You know, I keep coming back in this conversation to Jody Foster, how much I'm. I read her interviews because I admire. Because I know what she survived.

Joe Rogan (35:44)

Right.

Ethan Hawke (35:45)

But. But she's wicked smart. Yes. You know, you don't want to. You don't want to place your bet that you're as smart as she is.

Joe Rogan (35:52)

Yeah, she's smart and also wise. That's the odd thing of someone who's in. Like. How old was she in Taxi driver?

Ethan Hawke (36:00)

You know, 12, 14.

Joe Rogan (36:02)

Crazy.

Ethan Hawke (36:02)

I know crazy.

Joe Rogan (36:04)

And it's a very bizarre movie for a young child to be sexualized and in this very weird, psychotic movie.

Ethan Hawke (36:11)

But what she took from it was this great mentor in Martin Scorsese, and she kind of understood she was making art. That's where the wisdom comes in. She's just naturally, precociously wise that way, that she didn't get hung up on the.

Joe Rogan (36:26)

The famous.

Ethan Hawke (36:28)

The seedy aspects, the sexuality aspects of it. She got hung up on, who's this guy Martin Scorsese? What is he doing? What is this movie saying? How could I be a part of that? You know? And That's.

Joe Rogan (36:40)

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Joe Rogan (36:46)

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Ethan Hawke (36:53)

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Joe Rogan (36:57)

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Ethan Hawke (37:07)

Rules and restrictions may apply. I think she survived, but I don't know the woman, so I shouldn't speak.

Joe Rogan (37:13)

Yeah, I don't know her either, but I do admire her when I hear her talk.

Ethan Hawke (37:17)

Yeah, me too.

Joe Rogan (37:17)

And that's why I always bring her up as the lone example that I've ever come across of someone who's been through childhood stardom that seems to be, like, very well and put together.

Ethan Hawke (37:26)

Yeah. And she's still really good at her job.

Joe Rogan (37:29)

Yeah, right, right.

Ethan Hawke (37:30)

It's like that didn't become a caricature. That, to me, is really exciting, you know? See, if you're me, you're like. I look at Jeff Bridges a lot too. See, like, when Dead Poet Society came out, I went. I remember I went on this long talk with myself. I was like. Like sunrise, and I'd been up all night, and it was New York. I was about 19 or something, and I was just thinking about who had gone through this that I actually admire when I look at them. And I admire. And Jeff Bridges had starred in the Last Picture show, which was one of my favorite movies, and he was amazing at it. And he just slowly got better and better and better and better. And I was like, all right, so it can be done. You know, this. You know, he's got an amazing wife. He's really super into Buddhism. I started getting like, what? What is it? He's really into photography. Like, he takes. I don't. I don't know him either. Right. So I'm just. I'm just. I'm talking like a fan here. It's not. I don't know these people, but I watched him from afar. It's like, okay, this race can be won.

Ethan Hawke (38:35)

And I'VE always thought. I remember I was so happy he won the Academy Award for True Grit, I guess it was. And I was like, damn, what a long, slow burn he had. And he just keeps getting better and more interesting. He comes out with these weird little books I love, and I read them.

Joe Rogan (38:51)

He writes books?

Ethan Hawke (38:52)

Yeah, he has this book with his. Like, he has a mentor in Buddhism, and they kind of wrote a book together about the dao of the dude or some. Something like that. But it's actually, you know, I don't know if you've read the Dow Willy. I love all these kind of.

Joe Rogan (39:07)

To.

Ethan Hawke (39:08)

The left versions of. Sometimes I find it hard to read the. I want to read what Willie thinks about the dumpada more than I want to read the dumpada myself. Yeah, there it is. Yeah. The dude and the Zen Master. It's a great book, by the way. He has a mantra in it that I just love, which is row, row, row your boat Gently down the stream, Merrily, merrily, merrily, life is but a dream. And he talks about how valuable that song has been to him. I'm probably misquoting, but it meant a lot to me. And it's just like, one step at a time, one step at a time. Keep. Keep a smile on your face, you know, don't forget it's all a dream. You know, it's like. It's a great mantra.

Joe Rogan (39:49)

It is. And it's. It's always great to have someone who has gone through it all and has come out fascinating, interesting, and wise. So you go, it can be done.

Ethan Hawke (40:02)

Did you ever meet Kris Kristofferson?

Joe Rogan (40:03)

No.

Ethan Hawke (40:05)

He was cool.

Joe Rogan (40:06)

Yeah.

Ethan Hawke (40:06)

Yeah. Well, my secret fantasy is your job. You know, I wrote a profile on Chris, I don't know, 15 years ago now for Rolling Stone magazine, and I made a documentary about Paul Newman and Joanne Woodward, and I just finished a documentary about Merle Haggard. And I really enjoy studying other people and. But Chris.

Ethan Hawke (40:32)

You know, his life stories. Do you know it all? I mean, he was in the military, and then he gave up everything and became a songwriter. And it's kind of like imagine if.

Ethan Hawke (40:45)

You know, the equivalent is, like, the point of height of his career. It's like imagining.

Ethan Hawke (40:51)

If Brad Pitt had also written a number one single for Amy Winehouse. And, you know what I mean? I mean, I mean, you know, he wrote me and Bobby McGee for Janis Joplin.

Joe Rogan (41:04)

He did?

Ethan Hawke (41:04)

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Wow. And he was, you know, a helicopter pilot, and he wrote songs for Johnny Cash, and he was acting in Sam Peckinpah. Movies.

Joe Rogan (41:13)

He was in Blade.

Ethan Hawke (41:14)

Yeah, he was in Blade, but he was a real. He's a Rhodes scholar and a boxer. You would like this guy. He would be right up your alley. A real free thinker and didn't trap himself in any way of thinking and really fought for individual rights. And he was a great, great guy. I got to interview him and he, he actually starred in my first movie. I directed too. So I got to know what was that? So movie called Chelsea Walls. I don't necessarily recommend you watch it. You can if you want to. I learned a lot making it. I, I like it a lot. But I was learning, you know, I was learning a lot. But Chris, Chris was in it and he was amazing.

Joe Rogan (42:02)

Yeah. Having known people like that is so beneficial in your life. They, they're not just like inspirational. It's like a mental fuel, a type of, a type of nutrient almost. It's like having a person that you know, exists, that's been through something, has come out amazing and is so not tied down to any one specific identity, has varied interests, pursues them all with passion.

Ethan Hawke (42:30)

Having mentors.

Joe Rogan (42:32)

Yes.

Ethan Hawke (42:33)

It's like, you know, how are you going to be a samurai if you don't know a samurai?

Joe Rogan (42:36)

Right?

Ethan Hawke (42:37)

You know, you got to see the way they tie their shoes. You got to see the way they make dinner. You don't just get to see the fancy sword play. That stuff is hard earned. And so I'm not scared of that. You know, you don't have to hero worship people. You don't have to turn them into deities. They're human beings. But when you get to experience and see that people like, oh.

Ethan Hawke (43:00)

You don't have to lie. I knew a guy once who didn't lie. You know, you don't have to back down when somebody says that. I watched a person not back. You can be a good parent. You can have your children say, I love my dad. It's not going to come easy, but it can be done. And so I like heroes. I have no. I also like seeing older people. You know, there's not the fixation on the 23 year old James Dean, you know, but a fixation on, you know, the 72 year old Kris Kristofferson, you know, you know, pick whoever yours are. There's, yeah, you know, Muhammad Ali. I mean, there's so many amazing people that you can say like, wow, life was not always a picnic for them. How did they handle it? And then you cannot be, you know, too upset when life's not a picnic for you. You can just ask yourself, how did you handle it?

Joe Rogan (43:56)

Yeah. I don't think there's anything wrong with really appreciating people. That concern of hero worship is legitimate because I think there are some people that will take a person and change who they are and make them not just extraordinary, but not even human.

Ethan Hawke (44:12)

Yeah, that's a mistake.

Joe Rogan (44:13)

It is a mistake, but it doesn't mean you can't love and deeply appreciate who they actually are, flaws and all, because that's what we all are. And when someone is extraordinary and they have gone through so much or they have expressed so much and they do resonate with you so much, that's a valuable person, and you should treat them like they're a valuable person. It's not necessarily hero worship. It's just appreciation.

Ethan Hawke (44:37)

Yeah. Like I'll tell you. I don't know why I just flashed through my brain and when I was making this film, Chelsea Wallace, you have to understand, like, digital video. It just came out, this movie, the Celebrations. Danish film, amazing movie. Thomas Vinterberg directed it, and it just kind of changed the rules. The camera was cheap. Like, movies were always so expensive to make, and now you could just. I was like, all right, I want. I made this movie for $100,000 in 2000. And I was like, all right, we're just going to play with this new camera. And I talked Kris Kristofferson into being it. He was my hero, and he can't. He agreed to do it. I couldn't believe it. You know, he shows up on the set, and I had this elaborate shot I had planned. I'd found this apartment that was amazing. I hope this isn't boring, but I think it's. It's a funny story. So it's my first day with Chris, and I'm really trying to impress him. Like, I've. I've ripped this shot off from this French film I've seen. It's amazing. You're going to come into. You're going to. His character orders a bottle of whiskey, and the guy delivers a bottle of whiskey to the room. And in my idea, from this apartment, you. From the living room into the bedroom, and from the bedroom to the bathroom and then out of the bathroom into the kitchen, and the kitchen opened back up into the living room. It was one of those New York City Square apartments in the Chelsea Hotel. Right. And I showed him this path I wanted to take, and he was going to turn on the lights in this room, and he was going to put on a cowboy hat while he's Talking on the phone. He's going to look in the mirror and point the thing, and he's going to walk in the bathroom and flick that light on and then slam the mirror shut and then walk out and then sit down in the kitchen right where he was, pop open the whiskey and pour himself a glass right as he says the last line of the monologue. And he looks at me and he goes, are you an alcoholic?

Ethan Hawke (46:17)

And I was like, no, no, not really. No. He goes, I'm an alcoholic. I said, oh, okay. His character's name was Bud. He says, bud's an alcoholic? Yeah. He goes, so you mean to tell me I ordered a bottle of whiskey, I'm about to fall off the wagon, and I don't open the fucker until I walk through this room, turn on a light, try on a cowboy hat, flip on a light, slam a mirror, and then sit down. I was like, well, I think it would be a great shot. And he's like, ethan, there's no way in hell that I can remember all those lines and do all that. That you're asking me. That shot will never work. So what I think is Bud's an alcoholic, and he's gonna get his bottle, he's gonna open it. I'm gonna sit down, say my monologue and drink.

Ethan Hawke (47:08)

Okay, great. Let's do that.

Joe Rogan (47:13)

There's also the terror of someone you deeply admire not liking your idea.

Ethan Hawke (47:17)

Yeah. Which is your whole body just shrivels up, you know? You know, you know, you didn't see the guitar film. I don't give a. About the guitar film. There's no way I'm gonna remember those lines.

Ethan Hawke (47:30)

But then to. To finish it, I'll say. When he wrapped the movie.

Ethan Hawke (47:35)

He was getting. He, you know, said his goodbyes and everything. He was getting in the elevator to leave, and I ran out. I said to him, I said, hey, listen, you know, you've given so much this whole project, and I know that, but, you know, this whole crew's working for free, right? And.

Ethan Hawke (47:50)

Could I beg you, would you come in and sing one song for us? Just like. Just for the crew, if, for me? Is there any way you'd do that? And he said, yeah, you got a guitar? And I said, I do. I do. So he sat down and he proceeded to tell this elaborate story that I'm sure he's told a thousand times, but it was such a gift, the room. He sat and told his story about how he met Janis Joplin in the elevator of this very building. And we. And she fucked Me about four minutes later.

Ethan Hawke (48:21)

And I played her this song. And he's playing, you know, busted flat in Baton Rouge, Waiting for a train. I was feeling about his fate. The whole crew, everybody's crying. Everybody's so happy. I mean, he was just. He was that giving.

Ethan Hawke (48:38)

You know, to. To everybody and understood what it would mean to this group of young artists, you know, and so. But he wasn't perfect, you know, he was a real dude with real issues and, you know, and I loved him.

Joe Rogan (48:56)

Yeah, he was. I mean, you think about what he did and all the different songs that he performed and movies he was in and different things that he did. That's an extraordinary life.

Ethan Hawke (49:08)

Yeah, I'll stop in one second, but for some reason. Yeah, I think you'll love this. Apparently, the legend Johnny Cash used to say that. You know that song. Sunday morning coming down I woke up Sunday morning With no way to hold my head that didn't hurt. And the beer I had for breakfast wasn't bad, so I had one more for dessert. Great song. Okay, so Johnny Cash had a number one single out of this song. And Johnny Cash would tell the story how Chris was flying helicopters, offshore oil, and he landed in Johnny Cash's front yard with a beer in one hand and the song in the other on his helicopter and said, damn it, you got to listen to my song. And I listened to it and went straight to number one. That's the story that, you know, Cash would tell. And I asked Chris about it, and he said, have you ever flown a such and such chopper? And I said. I said, no, I haven't. He goes, there ain't no way in hell you can fly that thing with beer in one hand and a cassette in the other. That story. I don't know where he came up with that story. He's just trying to help out my career and make a legend out of me, too. But no, no, I just. I sent it to him via airmail.

Joe Rogan (50:13)

For a person that watches movies, I've done a small amount of acting, but. But I'm not good at it. For a person who watches movies, there's a thing that happens, like a hypnosis when someone is a really good actor, where they become that person. And even though I know it's Ethan Hawke, I know it's Fill in the Blank Daniel Day Lewis. I know. I know who it is, but it's not them at this moment, they're so good that they've convinced me that they're this other person.

Joe Rogan (50:49)

What is that? Because there's moments Where I see a good actor and I say, I don't believe them. I don't. I think they're phoning it in. They're saying it the right way, but there's just something in the air. There's a missing connection. And it is the key to a great movie. The key to a great movie is everybody has to be in that fucking weird zone. That weird zone where you become a different person.

Ethan Hawke (51:22)

You use the essential word in your first sentence, which is hypnosis. I mean, I've spent my life studying what you just talked about. And when you're acting with Denzel Washington, the power and strength and completeness of his imagination is hypnotizing. And it's an invitation to join him in a great film is a collective imaginative experience. When you watch the Godfather, you're not thinking about Al Pacino or James Connor. You think about Michael and Sonny and Tom and, you know, Vito. And I remember I watched Godfather, I felt like I'd see those guys at the Knick game tomorrow. That's how we. That's how much you're not thinking about the music, you're not thinking about the shots. You know, it's all one thing. All these disparate elements turn into one fist. You cannot do it alone. Right. But the best people I've worked with, it's like.

Ethan Hawke (52:29)

The easiest example to show, like, for anybody. When you go to a concert, every now and then, it happens. The performer hypnotizes you, and you disappear.

Joe Rogan (52:38)

Yeah.

Ethan Hawke (52:39)

You're inside those songs.

Joe Rogan (52:41)

Yeah.

Ethan Hawke (52:42)

You know, you're not talking about those songs. You're not looking at them. You're not listening. You are inside the song. You're inside a dream. And bad acting, for me, is glib. Bad acting is commenting on the song. Bad acting is slightly. The feeling you're talking about is when somebody's slightly outside of it. It's very, very do. And a lot of people.

Ethan Hawke (53:05)

Study it and work on it, and voice and speech is a huge. I mean, this stuff is very. It's. It's way more interesting to me than it would be to our audience here today. But it's like all these elements of what creates hypnosis. If I. If you were. If we're talking about the violin, there are ways to practice the violin, and I'm not going to make somebody a virtuoso, but I can, if I'm a expert violin pitch, help you be better. And I think the same is true for acting. Acting is an art form. It's beautiful. It's some Weird collage of where performance and writing and all these elements, music, it's all a part of it. And when it's happening, it's all effortless. And there's a lot of work you can do to inch it to being easier and to inch your scene partner into being easier. And there are ways that they can help you, and there's ways that they can ruin it. They can break the dream.

Ethan Hawke (54:06)

But when it's good, it is like diving into a dream. And it's a feeling that I got for the first time when I was 18 years old acting in Dead Poets Society. And it is a feeling. It was seconds long.

Ethan Hawke (54:24)

I mean, it was not much, but a feeling of disappearing. And that's the irony, I always feel about acting is that, you know, people think about actors and they see these pictures in the red carpet or something. They think that's what acting is. You know, what it really is. It's a life of. It's completely antithetical to that of trying to disappear. It feels like the celebration of the self, the celebration of the personality. But. But when you're doing a scene with Philip Seymour Hoffman, you know.

Ethan Hawke (54:56)

It'S not Phil that's talking to you. You know, it's. It's.

Ethan Hawke (55:02)

It's like, you know, in the cartoon when the eyes go all squirrely and like.

Ethan Hawke (55:09)

And then all of a sudden I'm not me. And if I've done my work right, all of a sudden I'm saying, what's coming out of my mouth is what I prepared. What's coming out of my pocket is what I prepared. The way I'm moving is what I'm prepared. And I'm not thinking about it. It's like watching the great athlete. When a great athlete makes a behind the back pass to the guy at the perfect second, he's not thinking, oh, I've got a cool idea. I'm gonna throw it behind my back and I'll catch him right as he's in stride. It's years of practice that have let them know that I know where he. He is. Because where else would he be, right? You know, and things that are at first difficult become easy.

Ethan Hawke (55:52)

And then you can even get better from there and get better from there. But that's the difference people talk about. You know, I love Daniel Day Lewis too. I think he's kind of the high water mark of my trade. And, you know, you hear these stories about what he does and people say, well, well, is that what you're supposed to do? And the thing about when people say method acting is, they really don't fundamentally understand what the method is. The method is an invitation to find out for yourself what will unlock your imagination. And that might be going hungry for two weeks. That might be sleeping in a jail cell. It might be reading 25 books about it. It might be wearing a weird headpiece. It's. It's not a rule. It's about how to unlock what's in here and bring it forward. That's what the greats do.

Joe Rogan (56:44)

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Ethan Hawke (58:03)

Yeah, exactly. Now that you said it, it went out of head too.

Joe Rogan (58:07)

It's a great movie. All the Tesla's. Crash.

Ethan Hawke (58:09)

Yeah. With Mahershal Ali. And I leave the world behind. Thank you. That's embarrassing for me. I'm supposed to know. But when. When you said you could remember it, then all of a sudden it went out of my.

Joe Rogan (58:18)

It's less embarrassing for me now that you didn't remember it because I was like, I gotta remember the name. The. The scene where you go up to the guy's house and he pulls a gun on you. Yeah, I'm right there with you. I'm like, oh, it was a great scene.

Ethan Hawke (58:32)

It was a Kevin Bacon. Yeah.

Joe Rogan (58:34)

Phenomenal performance because I believed you. I believed him. I believed you. I believed it was happening. And I was like, oh, it was. Oh, shit. Like it wasn't like these guys are acting.

Ethan Hawke (58:47)

That scene is exactly what I'm talking about.

Joe Rogan (58:49)

Yeah.

Ethan Hawke (58:49)

Because that's Mahershala Ali, Kevin Bacon and myself in a very well written scene. And those two guys are so easy to act with.

Joe Rogan (58:58)

With.

Ethan Hawke (58:59)

They are so, they are, is so easy to disappear with them. We did that scene over and over and over again 15,000 different ways and blah, blah. And it was always, I always loved it and you know, I did, I had a temper tantrum that day on set. But I, because.

Ethan Hawke (59:20)

Your body.

Ethan Hawke (59:24)

You, you, you, you're winding your body up in such a way that it's like a emotional currency or something. You, you have this thing you're going to spend, but you have. Your body doesn't know it's fake. And if you do it right.

Ethan Hawke (59:39)

You trick your body into believing that I'm begging for my child's life. I'm not acting, I'm begging Kevin Bacon for my child's life. And he's going to decide whether or not my child gets to live. Live, right? And if, if you can get that, that going.

Ethan Hawke (59:55)

Shit starts to happen to you, right? Things you don't plan. And, and if Kevin is good, which he is, Marshall is good, then they're doing the same thing.

Ethan Hawke (60:06)

Right? He's, if he gives me this thing that I need, he's putting his wife at risk. He's not going to do it. I don't care about your kid, you know, and then Mahershala's got his character in his head and then we, then all of a sudden people are actually behaving. They're not reciting lines, they're not. It's like I did one of my earlier movies with wolf, right? It was best acting teacher I ever had, this wolf. Because it was this movie called White Fang, right? Little Disney kids movie, right? But it was a great teacher because I had to do these scenes with this half, half breed wolf. And if I'm, if you're the wolf, all right, and we're doing a scene together and what I'm really thinking about is the camera, you know, the wolf turns around, looks at the camera.

Ethan Hawke (60:51)

You know, you know when you meet somebody and you know they're self conscious, right. You know why she's so tense? You don't, you just. We're non verbal, we can communicate with each other. Animals pick up on it instantly. If I'm actually talking to the dog, the wolf, if I'm actually in, if I'm present with this animal, the animal interacts with me, you Know. And especially a wolf. Especially a wolf.

Ethan Hawke (61:19)

Damn thing bit me that day.

Joe Rogan (61:21)

Did it really?

Ethan Hawke (61:22)

Yeah.

Joe Rogan (61:22)

Hard? Yeah.

Ethan Hawke (61:23)

Why'd it bite you? All right. This is one of the best days of filming in my life. No kidding. All right. Which is that amazing animal trainer, Clint Rao was his name. And we wanted to. It was a scene where I'm getting the wolf to trust me. Me, and it's going to eat out of my hand for the first time. And so Clint had this amazing idea. It's like, what if you can see even from that shot, how far. That's a long lens. That thing put me on a little tiny island where two, you know, like some two rivers fork. And so there's a little island of land right there. And so we put. See this wolf surrounded by water, Right? And.

Ethan Hawke (62:06)

This is flame. This isn't the animal that I knew really well. But the way to get it to look like this, we have to not know each other. And I spent all day out there with this wolf. And whenever the cameras started thinking I might have a chance of getting to pet him, they would start rolling. And I just talked to the wolf and I'd walk around and play. And I just had to try to be real with him. And he started to like me. I'll. It. It's not boring. And this is. I'm getting close because he's starting to like me. We've been playing a lot. And he comes over and. Okay, you'll see. He. You'll see him bite me if you want. But. Amazing, amazing animal. But the point I'm trying to say is I. We sat out there for 11 hours with this starving wolf.

Ethan Hawke (62:53)

Right? Trying to get him to eat.

Ethan Hawke (62:57)

Ready? Ready. And.

Ethan Hawke (63:03)

Ouch. Okay.

Joe Rogan (63:05)

That wasn't that bad.

Ethan Hawke (63:06)

Wasn't that bad. Bled Joe.

Joe Rogan (63:08)

Did it really? Yeah, Sharp teeth. But it didn't. Look, he was trying to hurt you.

Ethan Hawke (63:11)

No, no, he wasn't. He wasn't. That's what I mean. He wasn't. He was.

Ethan Hawke (63:16)

And so. And by the end of the day. Check this out, man. I mean, it was one of the most incredible experiences of my life. I know it's a corny kids movie or whatever, but. But.

Joe Rogan (63:27)

But it's a real wolf. And he doesn't know he's acting.

Ethan Hawke (63:29)

Yeah. And he doesn't know he's acting. Yeah. Right. And so I gotta be real. And I mean, I wept when that dog died, you know, because. And I think about that scene if. When I'm doing anything.

Ethan Hawke (63:46)

You know, about being present.

Joe Rogan (63:49)

Right. And that's a.

Ethan Hawke (63:50)

If I'm trying to get the shot. The dog is not gonna eat out of my hand. If I actually want to say, hey, yo, you can trust me. Right. You know, I'd have to give up for hours, you know, and just sit there. And we didn't have a phone. I'd just sit there and whittle or something and walk over there, toss rocks for a little bit until he got. You know, it was. It was such a fascinating experience.

Joe Rogan (64:12)

Wow. Well, that's.

Ethan Hawke (64:14)

Yeah.

Joe Rogan (64:14)

You can't act right. Because.

Ethan Hawke (64:16)

And you never can. You never can.

Joe Rogan (64:19)

You never can.

Ethan Hawke (64:19)

You never can. And one of the things about, you know, there's a handful. Laurie Metcalf comes to the line. Denzel Washington, Sally Hawkins, Laura Linney. There's a handful. I mean, I could. A bunch of them. Philip Seymour. There's a lot of great actors I've worked with in my life. And what's so wonderful about them is if you start acting, what are you doing?

Ethan Hawke (64:44)

Kind of sense.

Joe Rogan (64:47)

Yeah.

Ethan Hawke (64:48)

Something smells weird, right? Phil was the best at it because it wouldn't just be about you. Phil was amazing. You'd sit down to do a scene with him, and he'd be running it and stuff, and he just.

Ethan Hawke (64:59)

What is it? Something smells bad. What is it? Is it you? Is it me? I don't know, man. Is the cup. Is the cup wrong? Maybe. Should I be sitting over there? What smells wrong? Something's fake. What is it? What's fake? Like, pace it up. Let's try pacing it up. No, that's not it. Still bad.

Ethan Hawke (65:24)

All right, let me. Let me try this. And then, boom. The next day, we'd scream at you or something, and everything would shift and, you know, the smell would change in the room. Yeah. And it was like he. It's like just shaking out. What is self conscious? Something is self conscious here. Somebody's posing. Is it me? Is it you? Is it the fucking prop? Is the table wrong? I don't believe this scene. And what it means is, when you're watching the movie, you, the paying audience aren't gonna be able to disappear something, you know? Haven't you ever seen you see a movie sometime? You're like, why is she wearing that red jacket? Who thought that was a good idea? All you're thinking about is a red jacket. It's just wrong. I don't know why it's wrong, but everybody knows it. It's like hitting the wrong note.

Joe Rogan (66:07)

I don't necessarily notice with clothes because I'm not very close conscious, but I do notice what you're saying about self consciousness and I don't understand what it is. It's like this untouchable, unweighable, unmeasurable element that just exists and we know it, we know it's real.

Ethan Hawke (66:25)

Don't you, don't you feel it in here?

Joe Rogan (66:28)

Yeah.

Ethan Hawke (66:28)

When somebody's being funny with you?

Joe Rogan (66:29)

Oh yeah.

Ethan Hawke (66:30)

Somebody has a big agenda about what they want to accomplish on your show or something like that.

Joe Rogan (66:34)

Oh, for sure. Especially political people or people that have some sort of a controversial technology that really probably should be regulated.

Joe Rogan (66:45)

I think what we're going to be able to do is amazing things for humanity.

Ethan Hawke (66:48)

And they get that tone in their voice, that Charlie Brown voice.

Joe Rogan (66:53)

There's just a air of bullshit and I don't know what that is. And.

Joe Rogan (66:58)

It exists in acting. It certainly exists in comedy too. I always say that when I watch a great comic on stage, they take me on a ride, I let them think for me. I'm sitting down. Think for me. You're thinking for me. And when someone's thinking for you, it's just like you're, you're. You're free to explore their mind. And it's. If they're self conscious, you'll feel it. Like, I see someone tense. Like I have a club and a comedy club in town and when new people audition there, perform there, you fucking feel the nerves. You feel the nerves. And I'm always like, just give him a few minutes, Let them shake it out. Just let him shake that. It's so hard when so much is on the line to not be self conscious, to be present.

Ethan Hawke (67:43)

But you're smart to give him space. That's always what I feel. Just give me space. Give me space. Give me space to be bad. Yeah, I need, I need space to be bad. And it's kind of like in basketball, you gotta touch the ball. Let me touch the ball, let me make.

Joe Rogan (67:57)

Well, we've all been bad, so it doesn't mean he can't be good. When I see someone on stage and they're self conscious and clunky, I'm like, like this is a process. This is not. This is not like a rocket that when you screw in the last rivets, you're ready to light the fuse.

Ethan Hawke (68:14)

I love watching an actor I admire be bad.

Ethan Hawke (68:19)

I love it. I love it because it's, it's not, it's not a science, right?

Joe Rogan (68:24)

It's not a science.

Ethan Hawke (68:25)

Sometimes you gotta take a shot and sometimes you miss.

Joe Rogan (68:27)

Well, then sometimes you're going through a divorce or you got a Fucking drug problem.

Ethan Hawke (68:32)

Or the director is an asshole, or they change a script the other day. Or.

Joe Rogan (68:37)

Or you hate the dp, producer's a douchebag.

Ethan Hawke (68:39)

And. But what I was. I always tell my kids who are really interested in my profession or any young actor is like, I call that permission to fail is. I don't. I don't give anybody.

Ethan Hawke (68:51)

My. I don't have permission to fail. You know, you. I don't care if you don't like the first ad. I don't care if you don't like this. Cannot give them that ability. I still fail. I'm not saying that. But I. I don't want to seed it, you know. Yeah. Then. And. But that takes time. I spent the first 15 years of my career saying, I didn't do a good job because that guy was a jerk, or I didn't do a good job because they changed the script. Or I didn't do a good job because of this, that and the other thing. And then you see people. Like, back to our hero thing, you know, Then you see people are really good and they don't. They don't. Robert De Niro doesn't give somebody the ability to screw up his workday. They don't have that power. He takes responsibility for that power.

Joe Rogan (69:37)

Is that a learned thing or is. You could certainly learn some of it from watching other people, but is that just an experience thing?

Ethan Hawke (69:46)

I think it's the right manifestation of confidence. Right. Young people have to fake confidence. They just have to. When you watch a young person in your club, they gotta fake it. Of course they're gonna have to go. Burn through their nerves. They're gonna have to. But once you have experience, you can have real confidence because you fought this battle before. I know I have a certain. If I'm overwhelmed with. If my nervous system is at war with myself, I have certain process. I can.

Ethan Hawke (70:18)

I've walked these woods before, you know, I. And I know why I'm lost and I know what I need to do.

Ethan Hawke (70:27)

And it doesn't mean I'll always work through it, but I'm much more likely to than I was 20 years ago.

Joe Rogan (70:33)

Yeah.

Joe Rogan (70:36)

It'S knowing that. It's this process. When you watch younger people do it, do you ever. Like, are you ever working with a young person and it's not. Not clicking somehow, and you're trying to figure out how to help them? Like, is there a thing you can say to them? Is there. Can you just do it by example only?

Ethan Hawke (70:59)

Well, examples. The best. The best teacher's example Unasked for advice is never heard from. The problem with young people is they don't often ask for advice.

Joe Rogan (71:09)

Right.

Ethan Hawke (71:09)

They think they're trying so hard to pretend like they know everything that they feel like to ask advice.

Joe Rogan (71:14)

I kind of feel like that's a generalization though, because I do know a lot of young people that do have ask advice.

Ethan Hawke (71:18)

All right, well, one of the. My, my thing is I can't. I cannot believe the amount of young people show up on set with their phone. Oh, yeah. And when you were saying about hypnosis, let me tell you what's a destroyer of collective imagination.

Joe Rogan (71:33)

Yeah.

Ethan Hawke (71:33)

Is. Is our phones.

Joe Rogan (71:35)

I was reading an article today and I think it was Psychology Today about a study that they've done recently on the impact of social media on cognitive function for children. And that it's just fucking nuking their brain. Nuking.

Ethan Hawke (71:51)

How old are your kids?

Joe Rogan (71:52)

I have a 15 year old and a 17 year old and a 28 year old.

Ethan Hawke (71:56)

So what is your like? Because my wife and I go through this all they want. It's so bad. And as a parent, you want them to be happy and all their friends have Instagram. I know. It destroys my brain. How could it not hurt theirs? I find my own powers of concentration are suffering. I'll be reading a book, which I used to do all the time, and every 10 pages I take a break to look at my phone. What's happening? Why am I doing this?

Joe Rogan (72:21)

Right.

Ethan Hawke (72:22)

You know what, What? So. But they want it so bad and I want them to be. How do you handle that?

Joe Rogan (72:30)

I do not put restrictions on my children's use of social media, but we do have discussions about it because I think it is an inexorable part of modern society. And I think there is a social ostracization that comes from eliminating social media. Your kid, they can't have a phone. I see it in other kids. I don't think that's the solution.

Ethan Hawke (72:51)

My daughter is loving you right now. She is just like, see, because she says, let me be. Teach me to be responsible for it myself. Yes, help me do that.

Joe Rogan (73:01)

That's what I believe.

Ethan Hawke (73:02)

And you know, when we were thinking about what restrictions we were going to do, we went on this walk with this really good friend of mine, Richard Linklater, who's an amazing person. And they tried that. My daughter's hit him up of what he thinks. He said, I don't know. All I know is that the most important thing is to be your own best friend and that this is a slight Obstacle to it, that boredom. Boredom. And sitting still with yourself is a membrane you kind of have to pass through. And if you can make best friends with yourself, then your best friend is always with you. And so that's been my solution, too, is to say, all right, right, let's all. There aren't limitations, but let's all sit down and look at. I'll show you how much I looked at it. How much did you look at it? How we doing? Do you feel? Is it helping? Is it hurting? Because what you're a thousand percent right about is it's part of the social structure of their lives. Yeah. And to isolate them from it is to.

Ethan Hawke (74:06)

Has. Has. You can't pretend that doesn't have negative side effects.

Joe Rogan (74:09)

Well, one of my children. Well, both of my children, my young children are very disciplined. And of them, just opted out. Just decided she's not going to get on social media anymore. And she got this app, and this is. Nobody forced her to do this. She got this app that locks you out, and it shows you how many days you've been off of Instagram. Sort of. Sort of incentivize you, you know, to stay off of it. You know, the last time she checked, she'd been off, like, 99 days or something like that. No Instagram, no nothing. But it is addictive, and. But there's a lot of things in life that are addictive. And so the question is, like, how addictive is it? Like, what. What is calling you to get nothing? Because that's what you get. You get nothing. You get these, like, tiny dopamine hits. Like, staring at something for a few seconds, like, that's provocative or that's crazy. Like, why is he saying that? Or, why is that happening? Oh, my God, they're gonna die. You know, like, I have this terrible text thread between me and my friend Tom Segura where we send each other the absolute worst things that we find online every day. Like, every day, it's, guy got run over by a train. Car accidents, gunshots, South American assassinations. It's just all. Every day, it's all the worst things you could possibly find on the Internet. There's no good in that. You know, we do that to fuck with each other. Because it's kind of funny because he's a comedian, too, and we just fuck with each other. It's just, like, silly. Like, oh, boy. Like, he sends me things and I send him things, but for the most part, I get nothing. It's mostly nothing. Occasionally I say it's like, as A. I make this excuse, like, as a comic, oh, I need to be up on the zeitgeist. I need to be paying attention to what people are paying attention to. But you kind of get it anyway. You kind of get it anyway just through life. And it's better that way because then you only get the real significant things. You don't get the, the, the. You don't have to sift through everything. It's like you have, you have a filter. Society acts as your filter to get you the most pertinent information.

Joe Rogan (76:10)

But I think leading by example with kids is the best way with everything. My kids are both very disciplined. They get a lot of things done and they work really hard, which I'm very proud of. They're also really nice, which I'm also very proud of. I think that's like the hardest thing to do is to, to just be nice, to be a kind person.

Joe Rogan (76:32)

The worst thing for kindness is social media. Children in particular are so mean to each other on social media. They're so mean to each other in comments and they talk about how one of their friends is getting bullied and this person is doing this, and they're leaving comments on this and from a rival high school and this and that. And it's like. But I also think that that process of understanding that this, there is this bizarre social interaction that's not real, that is a, a part of life, and that you have to develop a resilience to this.

Ethan Hawke (77:06)

Getting tough is important. Like, I think one of the, One of the things kids are experiencing now is what I experienced with the first blush of celebrity. I mean, you want to talk about negative comments? Try being an actor. Everybody's got an opinion about what a fake you are, what a phony you are. This sucks about you, or this is dumb. This is what you like. You know, it's. I have lost.

Ethan Hawke (77:34)

Unbelievable, ridiculous amount of hours to. My mother will send me a really nice review of something. Something positive about me, right? I'll look at it and my brain goes, what are the comments?

Ethan Hawke (77:46)

Nasty. I mean, just the nastiest things. And you can't believe that some. But I don't want to, you know, know, give it too much time. But I actually think it really makes you stronger to realize, of course people don't like you.

Joe Rogan (78:00)

Over time it will make you stronger.

Ethan Hawke (78:02)

It's fine. They don't like you. Guess what? Half the people, every party you went to didn't like you, okay? But they're also not thinking very much about you. They're thinking about themselves. And you start to realize that this is just people talking at the barbershop. People have been gossiping their whole throughout the history of mankind. Now, you can read it if you want, but it's. It has no venom in it. It's not real. And the sooner you learn that other people's opinions don't have to affect you, I think the better off you are. So in that way.

Ethan Hawke (78:35)

It hurt me. I've seen it happen to actors, especially if you're doing stage. I'm sure with comics, when you're doing a play and you have to do it every night and you start reading a lot of bad things that people say about you.

Ethan Hawke (78:50)

It is demolishing to your confidence, you know, I mean, I had this actor friend of mine, we shared a dressing room, and one day he came in and he was great in the show. And he came in and just his whole energy was dark. I was like, you already. I went down the rabbit hole last night. Just read what people are saying about me on the Internet. And everybody thinks I'm terrible in this place. And I'm like, they don't like your character. You know, like they're. People are not so brilliant, you know, it's not all geniuses out there chiming in on what a jerk you are at three in the morning.

Joe Rogan (79:27)

Right?

Ethan Hawke (79:27)

Okay. So you don't have to take it serious. But, you know, he. It took him weeks to get his mojo back because every. He would step out on stage just imagining this chorus of hate.

Joe Rogan (79:39)

I had the exact same conversation last night with a famous comedian friend of mine. Really, I won't say his name, but he went down a Reddit rabbit hole the other.

Ethan Hawke (79:48)

I don't do it anymore.

Joe Rogan (79:48)

I don't do it because I fucked up and I went down this rabbit.

Ethan Hawke (79:51)

Don't do it. Don't do it. No good comes from it.

Joe Rogan (79:54)

And he was like, they fucking hate me. I go, no, no, no. They hate themselves. They hate everything. There's no, like, Michael Jordan's not leaving Reddit comments. You know what I'm saying? Like, these aren't winners. These are fucking people that are not doing what they want to be doing. And they want to hate on everybody that's out there, that's out there in the public eye. And some of it is valid. You know, the really, the scary hate is when you get hate, like from Quentin Tarantino where he's going off on that guy from Paul Dano.

Ethan Hawke (80:23)

But, you know, here, that's a great lesson. It is, actually. There's A great lesson. You know what? I don't think Paul Dano ever knew that so many people loved him.

Joe Rogan (80:32)

Right?

Ethan Hawke (80:33)

Here's the thing. Out of nowhere, out of nowhere, Paul Dano's just going about his life. He's got to wake up one morning and find out this director's just went off on him and saying these hateful things. But, but anybody that knows Quentin knows he just talks, talks, talks, talks, talks, talks, right? Anybody that knows Paul knows he's a great world class human being. And, you know, and all this love for Paul's coming out. And it's a great lesson in that, that you don't have to worry about the negativity that people send your way. You don't have to worry about it at all.

Joe Rogan (80:59)

Even from one of the greatest actors or one of the greatest directors of all time.

Ethan Hawke (81:02)

Yeah, yeah, it's okay. And guess what? Every, you know, I'm positive. Positive. There are great directors that think I suck. I'm positive. Quinn at least says the, you know, he just says whatever comes into his mind. I'm, I remember once I met, I met some director, I won't say his name at a bar, it was a dive bar in New York. He's a really famous big shot director. He's sitting there and he'd just seen my most recent movie. He's like, you know.

Ethan Hawke (81:32)

You were pretty good in that one. And in the comment was the subtitle underneath it was, I have hated you for 27 years. That's. It was so clear, you know, the hypnosis came through. Yeah, I mean, it was so clear. I was like, wow, wow. Well, no wonder you've never offered me a movie. And directors have opinions, right? They have super strong opinions. What do they have strong opinions about? Acting. Right. And you know, he's talking about the movie he would have directed. Okay, that's. He's not talking about Paul Dano. He's talking about something else. He's like you said about the thing, they're talking about themselves. Obviously, whenever anybody says something hateful, they're talking about themselves 100%. That's not, that's who they're talking. And, and, and the punchline to this whole thing is, you know, I, I've worked with Paul a couple different times and I love the guy and I'm so happy for him immediately. Every other, every other comment, everywhere, somebody's saying something great about Paul Dano.

Joe Rogan (82:28)

The majority, the vast majority of comments were really positive about him. And I went and rewatched the scene because of It. And he was great in it.

Ethan Hawke (82:37)

Oh, he's a great.

Joe Rogan (82:38)

He played the. A great like that guy.

Ethan Hawke (82:41)

It's not up for debate. It's, you know, it's not up for debate. I'm sure if you were alone drinking with Steven Spielberg, he'd shock you with some opinion. He, you know, he hates Orson Welles or something like that. You know what I mean? I mean, we wouldn't be a good director if he wasn't a opinionated.

Joe Rogan (82:58)

Of course.

Ethan Hawke (82:59)

You know, it doesn't mean he's. The truth, of course.

Joe Rogan (83:01)

It's just the opening up your vulnerability to the masses in. In the most trivial and flippant ways of commenting, which is like leaving a comment on a YouTube video or something like that. It's just not wise. It's not. It's not good. Especially if you actually let it get into your psyche and you take it in as real. Because we are designed to recognize threats, danger, the negativity, because it's important. Like, that's.

Ethan Hawke (83:33)

Sorry to cut you off, but that. That's the truth. Yeah. The reason why it hurts me when it comes is exactly what you. I'm worried they're going to take my career away. I love what I do. If I do a big movie and I really work hard in the New York Times or the LA Times, it says he sucks.

Ethan Hawke (83:52)

I don't really care about that critic's opinion.

Joe Rogan (83:55)

Yeah, I care.

Ethan Hawke (83:56)

Is. Is this gonna stop me from doing what I love? Because I know it's fragile. I know that there are a million talented people. Right. I. I know that. I know that I'm lucky. I know that I'm fortunate. So it is scary. It is a threat. Right? I mean, but it is, but you got. You got to get tough. I'm sorry I cut you off and I didn't really have a good point. It's fine. You know what I mean?

Joe Rogan (84:20)

Yeah, you do. And I mean, I don't want to be cruel, but I also. This is how I feel. Critics in particular, I do not think they want to be critics. And I feel like most people who become critics become critics because they don't have anything to contribute. They're not great writers. They. Or they never developed the ability to be a great writer or they never pursued it or whatever it is. They don't. They're not great actors. They're not. They're just criticizing. Criticizing. Like criticizing from Quentin Tarantino is a very different thing than a criticism that comes from a person that's just a critic. And I remember I had this. There was this moment when Fear Factor came out. Like, Fear Factor is a fucking completely idiotic show. It's just. That's all it is, is just escapism. It's chaos. People doing stupid shit for money. This is crazy. This is nuts. Oh, my God. Are they really gonna do this? And maybe you get something out of the end, like, that guy pulled it out, or she did it. She didn't want to do it.

Ethan Hawke (85:21)

She faced the snakes.

Joe Rogan (85:22)

Yeah, but it's really usually like the end thing is like, something physical. But Fear Factor came out right after 9, 11. That's when it came out. And one of the criticisms was, do you really think America needs to be facing fear after we just experience September 11th terrorist attack.

Ethan Hawke (85:41)

Attack?

Joe Rogan (85:42)

And I got this question in an interview, and, you know, my. My perspective on Fear Factor in the beginning was I'm only doing this because I think it's going to get canceled. I'm like, I'll get some material out of this. I'm like, they're gonna sick dogs on people and make them eat animal dicks. I'm in. I'm like, this is gonna. This is gonna get canceled in, like, three weeks, and I'm gonna have a bit on how stupid this show was. And it wound up doing, like, 168 episodes. It was ridiculous. And I said. And I got upset in this interview. I go, that's ridiculous. Like, they were questioning me whether or not America needs to be scared after 9, 11. I'm like, it's not fucking scary. And I'm like, what are you talking. You're making something into something. It's not just so that you can write an article. This is nonsense. And I go, that kind of criticism is the type of criticism from a person where I'm not interested in your opinion. I don't think you're a particularly unique thinker. And you're saying something that's nonsense. It's nonsense. It's a stupid show. I'll tell you, it's a stupid show, and it's my fucking show. I don't care. It's just entertainment. That's all it is. And I think the people that write this are writing this in that way because you don't have anything to contribute. And I met that person at a party. There was one of those, you know, they have, like. If you're on a television show, they have those NBC things where you go. And it's like, there's all these different reporters, and all the actors from all the shows are there, and the guy Was like, you know, I got to tell you, that really pissed me off. I go, why? Because it's accurate. I go, what pissed you off? I go, you say horrible, hurtful things about all these different people, and the course of their career is dependent upon your opinions in to a certain extent, you could shape other people's narratives about who this actor is. Is about who this person is. And you just do it because you don't have anything else to contribute. And so when I said you don't have anything else to contribute, that hurt your feelings. That's why it pissed you off. It didn't pissed you off because I wasn't accurate. And we had this, like, weird moment, you know, where he was, like, taking into consideration what I was saying, and he was like, okay. And I go, look, I'm not a bad guy. I don't think you're a bad guy. But you have to realize this weight to your words. And I realize there's weight to my words, words. That's why I lashed out like that. I think this is stupid. I'll tell you, this show, stupid. It's a stupid show. We're not making Shakespeare in the park, bro. We're making people, like, line up, coffin filled with rats. It's. But it's okay. It's okay to have dumb. It's okay to have burgers. It's okay to have, you know, filet mignon at a fine restaurant.

Ethan Hawke (88:13)

Like, absolutely.

Joe Rogan (88:14)

All these things are okay. Like, but call it what it is. If you want to say it's a dumb show, I'm right there with you. With you. But if you want to say, like, this is bad for America because America just got attacked by. And it's called Fear Factor. Like, shut up. Just shut up. And I just think he didn't like the fact that I was.

Ethan Hawke (88:30)

That you were criticizing him.

Joe Rogan (88:31)

Yeah.

Ethan Hawke (88:31)

Yeah.

Joe Rogan (88:32)

Well, I was willing to do what he does to him without fear because I had already checked out of acting. I did five years on news radio, and I decided, I'm done acting. I was like, I don't want to do this anymore. I only did it for money in the first place. I never wanted to be an actor. The only reason why I ever got on a. I got on a sitcom with zero acting experience. Zero. I mean, I had none.

Ethan Hawke (88:51)

How did it go?

Joe Rogan (88:52)

I did. I did MTV half hour Comedy Hour, which was this comedy show that used to be on MTV. I did like a 10 minute set and I got a development deal. I was like, what? Like, all of a sudden they gave Me, Money. I was poor my whole life, and then all of a sudden, I had $150,000. I'm like, this is crazy. I have money. Like, it was nuts. And my manager actually thought I had a gambling problem because I was spending so much money. And he was like, what are you spending money? I'm like eating lobster every night. I was so dumb. I thought it was just gonna run out. And then I go back to being poor again. But all sudden, I'm on this show and I'm acting. And I realized at the end of five years, it was a wonderful job with an amazing, incredible group of talented people, but I don't want to do it again. It's not my thing. I don't like it. So when Fear Factor came up, I'm like, ooh, this is a way to make a lot of money without doing anything. That's acting. Okay, I'll do it. And so dealing with these people that. I'd seen the impact of their words on all the people that I worked with. Like, we used to. We used to sit around, you know, you have the table reads. And then people would start reading Variety and they'd start reading the Hollywood Reporter and all those different things, and. And they would all be super bummed out. And I. And I would call it the Devil's Rag. So I'd go there, oh, you guys are reading the Devil's Rag again. I go, fucking throw that away. It was like the early version versions of don't read the comments. I go, you guys are reading the Devil's Rag. Don't read that. Because then they would be all bummed out, like, oh, they think we suck. Like, no, they. They suck. We're trying to make a good sitcom. Let's just try harder. The best way to not make a good sitcom is to read shitty things about you.

Ethan Hawke (90:24)

Definitely. That's.

Joe Rogan (90:25)

You're going to go in and be really bummed out. And this constant process of dealing with other people's opinions and especially negative opinions from. From people that you don't really like in the first place. They're not happy people. It is Limu Emu.

Ethan Hawke (90:41)

And Doug. Here we have the Limu Emu in.

Joe Rogan (90:45)

Its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual.

Ethan Hawke (90:52)

Fascinating.

Joe Rogan (90:53)

It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug.

Ethan Hawke (90:57)

Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us. Cut the camera. They say, see us only pay for what you need@liberty mutual.com Liberty, Liberty, Liberty. Liberty Savings Ferry Unwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates Excludes Massachusetts. Close your eyes. Exhale. Feel your body relax. And let go of whatever you're carrying today. Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts in time for this class. I got them delivered free from 1-800-contacts. Oh, my gosh, they're so fast. And breathe. Oh, sorry. I almost couldn't breathe when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order. Oh, sorry. Namaste. Visit 1-800-contacts.com today to save on your first order. 1-800-contacts.

Joe Rogan (91:39)

It's such a. It's such a poison for your mind.

Ethan Hawke (91:44)

Well, and that's why we're talking. The same thing with the Internet is figuring out a way to give it no space in your mind because you know people are going to do what they're going to do, and you're not in charge of them. That's what I feel like. The. When you absorb too much of that hate and take it on yourself, you're forgetting that.

Ethan Hawke (92:03)

Somebody writes something hateful about somebody else, whether it's Quentin or whether it's this person or that person or whatever. Most people hear it and think, wow, I wonder why he said that. What's wrong with him? They don't think something. So when. A lot of times I might take really personally something that somebody hateful writes about me. But it's not like the world believes it, right? The world has people. Michael Jordan, who's not writing comments, might come across that and think, God, that writer's an asshole. That's what he's. He's not thinking you're an asshole or I. You know, if you're not saying something substantive, other people have a brain in their head and they know it. And so you can just ignore. I feel you can just ignore it. I've never gained anything, except perhaps the value of a thick skin from all the.

Joe Rogan (92:49)

That the value of a thick skin is important, though. And there's some. There's some value to. To being hurt, to taking it in and. And then realize it's dangerous to take it in.

Ethan Hawke (92:59)

And you must know, like, with your show, I imagine I don't really understand really how this works, but there's people who finance it and distribute it. There's people you have to work with, and they all have opinions. And like, I'm doing this show right now, the Lowdown, with fx, right? It's the first time I've ever done a television show, and I'm having a great experience with it. But you have to figure out you're Working with a lot of different people. You got. FX has got their opinions about how the show is and they're gonna be distributed on Hulu and they're owned by Disney and everybody. And you have to learn how to take criticism, go, all right. And also how to stand up for yourself when you know what you know your aim is true. And you have to be humble enough to tell the difference. Because anybody who thinks they're always right is an asshole. Right, Right. So sometimes you need their help.

Joe Rogan (93:50)

Yes.

Ethan Hawke (93:51)

And. And you have things to be taught. And sometimes you have to stand up for yourself and say, this is the kind of art I want to make and I'm living and dying on this. But actually what you're saying actually could help me do what I'm doing. And know the same thing with directors if you can't. When you were talking about advice for young people, the, the first thing that popped in my head is something.

Ethan Hawke (94:17)

One of my first directors said to me, which was. He said, What? I was 21, I was doing my first, I was making my Broadway debut. And this director said, what have you done? And I said, well, I did Explorers, you know, when I was a kid and I did this movie, Dead Poet Society, and I acted in this school play. I played Tom in Glass Menagerie my senior year. And, you know, and this director looked at me and said, so you've done nothing.

Ethan Hawke (94:43)

And I took offense at that, you know, so I have done some things. He said, I need you to say I've done nothing.

Ethan Hawke (94:53)

I need you to say, I don't know. And if you can say I don't know, I can teach you. And if you can't say I don't know, then I really can't teach you. And it was my 21 year old ego like was just buckling, you know, I do know what I do. I do know what I'm doing. And he said, you've never been on Broadway before, you've never done Chekhov before. And you can't say, I don't know what I'm doing. I said, I can't say that I don't know what I'm doing. See, it's not that hard.

Ethan Hawke (95:28)

Know, because if you can say that. I remember this like the first time going out surfing once, like my, somebody's trying to teach me how to surf. And I was like 16. I kept saying, I know how to do it. I know how to know. I know how to do it. I didn't know how to do it, but I couldn't. My Ego couldn't buck. And if you can get to that Zen, tabula rasa's no place, the beginner's mind. See, now, at 55, I always say, I don't know what I'm doing. It's so easy for me to say it.

Joe Rogan (95:55)

Yeah.

Ethan Hawke (95:56)

You know, it is so easy. You know, one lifetime is not enough to know what you're doing. There's so many more rooms. There's so many more layers, you know, and so that's the advice I have for young people starting, is to be humble and admit because you've done a handful of things doesn't mean you know what you're doing. And even though I might have even had some success, I didn't know why it was successful.

Joe Rogan (96:21)

Successful, right.

Ethan Hawke (96:23)

You know, that's a great.

Joe Rogan (96:25)

The beginner's mind is a great point to start. Because even if you're really good at something, like, say you're a good piano player and you want to learn how to play tennis, you start from a beginner's mind. You have to. And if you go into that tennis lesson going, do you know how good I am at piano? Like, don't talk to me like that. Like, no, you don't know how to play tennis. Let me show you how to play tennis. Like, everyone is a beginner at a thing they don't know. And to take on as many things as you don't know as possible to keep that beginner's mind is actually immensely beneficial for your ego, for your objectivity, for everything.

Ethan Hawke (97:02)

For everything. Could see with somebody like you, who's had a lot of transitions in your life about different career paths and different things that you're. That's always forcing you into a beginner's mind. And that's. I think I've done the same thing to myself. You know what? Like, what keeps me excited is, like, all right. God, I don't know. I'm gonna write a graphic novel. I'm gonna work with this guy, Greg Ruth. He's a brilliant illustrator. I'm gonna make a graphic novel now. I've never done that before. I have no idea how a graphic novel works. I know I've loved them my whole life, but I've never made one. Greg has, right? We work together. He teaches Sterling Hard Joe with the show the Lowdown. Boom. I've never done a show. He made Reservation Dogs. He's done this. I don't know, this landscape. And I love that feeling because I don't lose all the value of the things I do know. About it's all there for me. It's all there for me. I don't have to announce it over everybody. It's not going anywhere. But if I can orient myself into learning. I like making these documentaries because I'm not a professional documentarian. But what's weird about it is if I do that and I get in this real kind of open space and then I come back to acting, that beginner's mind channel is open and I'm available to learn something from somebody else that maybe I might. Because one of the things I thought when I was young is I thought there was a right way to be an actor and I was obsessed with somebody doing it wrong. This director is a fucking moron and he's ruining my work, you know. And then slowly I really realized it's just so obvious. Obvious there isn't a right way to make art. There are successful ways and unsuccessful ways. But I wanted everybody to be Peter Weir. That's what I wanted. Peter Weir had made that Poet Society and that's what rehearsal is supposed to be like. That's what the set is supposed to be like. That's you. That's how you're supposed to talk to other people. I didn't know I. My mentor was a card carrying, awesome human being and I was having unrealistic expectations about other people on their path. They haven't done all that Peter's done. They don't know it all. And I just, it would anger me that they weren't, you know. And then if you can get in a kind of a more open mind then you can really listen to people and absorb where they're at in their journey and you're not going to change them. You know, you're not. This idea that, you know, especially in a film shoot three, you're not going to change. Change the way they think. You know, you got to try to do your thing. Lead by example.

Joe Rogan (99:33)

Yeah.

Ethan Hawke (99:34)

You know, and. And try to let them not negatively impact you. But maybe you can be open and learn something from them and then that.

Joe Rogan (99:41)

Whole beginner's mindset is just immensely beneficial. Like you're saying how you carry it over to your acting. I would recommend that with anybody who does anything, find another thing that you're not good at all and get into that because that will help you with the thing that you're good at.

Ethan Hawke (99:57)

And haven't you ever noticed like I took. It's. It happens so often that it's funny. Like I take my son out to teach him how to shoot Right. First ski thing, you just blast it right out of the air. Second one, blast it right out of the air. Right. You know, you teach somebody to shoot a bow or something, first air, they fly, hits the target, then they don't the target again. You know, your body, you start thinking too much, you know, you hear. I hear. I don't know anything about golf, but I hear the same thing that's true with. With golf. Young people are often great actors. It's adolescence in life that makes it harder to get back to that childlike place, you know?

Joe Rogan (100:32)

Yeah.

Ethan Hawke (100:32)

And so I. I think I've even been talking to my wife a lot about. I want to start trying to take piano lessons just to do something I've never done. Because I know. I know. It rattles my brain.

Joe Rogan (100:43)

Yes.

Ethan Hawke (100:43)

And makes my brain see things different.

Joe Rogan (100:45)

Take a new language on. Learn how to play chess. Do something. Something. Yeah. It's. It's hugely beneficial to be a beginner, I think a person that only does one thing, there's something very valuable in that too. But do one thing, Immerse yourself in that one thing, and do it the best you can.

Ethan Hawke (101:00)

It's true.

Joe Rogan (101:00)

You know, the. The term kaizen, it's a Japanese term for refining something over and over and over and over again for decades until you absolutely have it perfected.

Ethan Hawke (101:13)

And I. I believe in that entirely. But I also believe. Believe that to master a craft, you have to apprentice three or four. That it's. It's good for, like, I. I'm an actor, and I'm gonna die an actor, and this is what I'm gonna do. And I have met older actors who are amazing, who I know I'm not as good as. And it kind of thrills me.

Ethan Hawke (101:39)

Thrills me how? To the. There's little nuances of conversation that I don't quite understand yet, but I know that they do, and I know that they're right. And I want to understand more deeply. And.

Ethan Hawke (101:53)

I just feel that. I don't know. I lost my train of thought about that. I don't know. I just totally. My computer just shut down. I forgot what I was talking about.

Joe Rogan (102:01)

It's okay. I think more people need. I think the problem is when you're really good at something, you find identity in it. Oh.

Ethan Hawke (102:09)

Oh. That's what I was saying is like. I know I want to excel at this one craft, but I know that when I direct something, when I write something, if I make a graphic novel, a documentary, I'm learning about things that are adjacent to my specialty. And by doing that, when I go to set and I'm talking to a writer, I know how hard he worked on the script.

Joe Rogan (102:33)

Yeah.

Ethan Hawke (102:34)

I'm not gonna willy nilly change his lines because I'm not in the mood or I don't like the way my hair looks or something like that. I'm not gonna do that. That I have respect for what he did. And because I have that respect, I can offer him my thoughts and we can probably get involved in a really mutually beneficial conversation. Because I've directed, I don't look at some director and think, well, like I did when I was younger, he's stopping me. I'm thinking, I know this guy. Sweat this. I know this guy picked this location for a reason. I know this guy has a tenuous relationship with a cinematographer. I know the producers are breathing down his neck. I know he's got a lot of headach. I'm gonna help him, and I'm gonna try to find an app, you know what I mean? So these ancillary. I do want to have a specialty, but I do think learning the piano might help me be a better actor. Like, I don't know why. I don't know the logic behind it.

Joe Rogan (103:26)

I think in particular in acting, that would be true because acting is you becoming someone else who's in love with life. And life involves a lot of different aspects. There's a lot of different things that go on in a human being's mind. The more you can introduce to your mind, the more that would help you become a variety of different people that you're performing as.

Ethan Hawke (103:53)

See, I mean, wouldn't it be phenomenal? Be very weird. But, like. So you and I have been talking, and I would venture to say we're doing pretty well. Three quarters of the time, we're completely immersed in what we're talking about. And then my brain, why my computer shut down as I start thinking about this actor that I love, Richard Easton, and I start thinking about how I'm still not as good as he is, and people. He's not even famous. Right. And then I couldn't remember what I was gonna say. Right. And you're talking to me about your kids or something. There's no way your mind doesn't drift to something going on in your life. Sure. And mine does too. Right. And.

Ethan Hawke (104:28)

So that's what real life is like. And the actor's job is to figure out the text, and the text be so clear and in there that then you can figure out all the other wavelengths, you know, when you're watching somebody great. There's all these other wavelengths that are happening. They have nothing. It's not that they have nothing to do with the script, but it's like, it's like the difference between a sketch and an oil painting. You know, the script is kind of a beautiful sketch and the actor's job, director's job, production designer, we're turning that into. To an oil painting. And, and so anyway, I'm just saying, wouldn't it if I could put a subtitle under everything we're really thinking while we're talking, how different would it be and how much more would I learn about you if I knew what, you know, what your guys relationship is really like? Does he get on your nerves? Do you hate it? You know that he wears a black cap? Do you wish he'd wear the red one? Just do, you know, you know, you know, you know what I'm saying? I got. There's so much about when I'm in your space, so much I don't know about what's going on today and what you guys are doing later today or how you cut the show or what's important to you about the show or.

Joe Rogan (105:33)

I forget about things I'm talking about all the time because I'm trying to lock into the other person's brain. And sometimes I forget what I want to say because I'm trying to like. I'm trying to think like you. I'm trying to like completely be in the moment and think like you. That's what I try to do, do when I'm doing. When I'm having a conversation with a person. I try to be as completely locked in as possible. So much so that sometimes I forget people's names that I know really well. I forget all kinds of things. That's cool because I'm not thinking about anything else other than the what that person's thinking and saying and trying to like decipher it and trying to like, trying to like, you know, guide the conversation in some sort of an interesting way. But I forget all kinds of things. I'll forget important people's phone numbers, birthdays. I don't remember anything. So many times I'll ask Jamie a question like, who is that fucking what? What is this fucking name? And then I can't believe I can't remember. It's because I'm not there. I'm lost in what this person is saying. So I have to like sit down and open up my file and go, oh, there's all the information again. But I'm not there, so I can't do that. So I gotta go. Let me go back to my desk and I'll open up my files. And now I have my information. But when I'm talking to you, I'm not at my desk.

Ethan Hawke (106:55)

That's what it's like for me to have a great role.

Ethan Hawke (107:00)

My brain disappears into that other psyche and I can kinda do some of the normal stuff of life. Driving my kids to school and. And do some things. But this part of me is floating over here imagining, was this the right way to. How should I wear the jacket? Would he drive a car? What kind of car would he drive? Is that the right car? Is that the right like, you know, and just my imagination, when it's really cooking.

Ethan Hawke (107:31)

Takes me away. My favorite things about it is I don't think about my phone. I don't think about the emails. I didn't return. I. I didn't think about whether I forgot so and so's birthday. For this period of time, this job is so important to me that I'm willing to say.

Ethan Hawke (107:50)

Nothing else matters. But I. But doing as good as I can in this moment. Obviously it's going to matter again when I leave the dressing room and when I do this. Obviously I'm trying to be a good adult and father and husband and citizen. All that stuff. Stuff. But it gives me a space where everything else can disappear. Everything else. And that's what's. What's so fun about a big, big ensemble. Like, I don't. People may like the movie or not like the movie, but I did this remake of Magnificent Seven, right. And when you have a big cast and everybody's in period costume, you know, and everybody's on their horse and your jackets from 1876 and they shirt is from, you know, from the Civil War or something like that. And it's all real and there's these old taverns built and there's dogs on the set and horses peeing and. You know what I mean? It all is so real and my life is gone.

Joe Rogan (108:49)

Yes.

Ethan Hawke (108:49)

And I'm just. Goodnight, Robichaux. Yeah. And you know, and I gotta worry about how many bullets I have left in my thing. And you know, and it's. It. You're. It's a. It's back to hypnosis and it's a wonderful relaxation. And that's the strange thing about it is it's like, you know when you're a kid and you first look at the stars or the ocean or something and you feel powerfully Your own insignificance. And your intellectual brain would think that that would feel bad. Oh, if somebody told you, hey, you're insignificant, that feels bad. But when you look at the stars, it feels great.

Joe Rogan (109:24)

Yeah.

Ethan Hawke (109:25)

And it's. It's the same feeling of the. Like, why would disappearing feel so good? I did. When I was young, I did this play with Steve Zahn. Great actor. Have you had Steve on your show?

Joe Rogan (109:37)

No.

Ethan Hawke (109:37)

Oh, he's a genius. And he's so funny. We were doing a play together and. And I would say to him, tonight's show went really good. Didn't you think it went well? Yeah, I thought it went really well. Yeah. And then the next night, I'd come back. Tonight sucked. Didn't it suck. Thought it went really well. You know, and you always think it goes really well. He goes, I never remember.

Ethan Hawke (110:04)

And the truth is, he's so Zen. He's so in the moment. What you're talking about when you do comedy or when you do your interviews, he is so in. He's so present that he honestly doesn't remember. And that's the trick is he doesn't have this huge opinion.

Joe Rogan (110:17)

Yeah.

Ethan Hawke (110:18)

Because the opinion gets in your way all the time. Time.

Joe Rogan (110:20)

Yes. It really can. Yeah. And I think the ultimate in the moment for a person that doesn't have a craft or a thing is staring at the stars because you realize you are a part of everything. And you are in this infinite soup of existence that all of your troubles and your. It seems so insignificant in comparison to the vastness of what's in front of you.

Ethan Hawke (110:49)

And that lets your shoulders lighten up.

Joe Rogan (110:50)

Yeah.

Ethan Hawke (110:51)

And then you can handle what you can handle.

Joe Rogan (110:53)

I've talked about this before, but I'll tell you. When I was younger, when my oldest daughter was. I think she was only like five or six, we went to the Keck Observatory in Hawaii. And I don't know if you ever been there. It's on the Big Island. But they told us it's like an hour and a half drive. They told us when you're driving up there.

Joe Rogan (111:13)

Go. You're. You know, you're gonna go to the top, and hopefully there won't be any clouds. So you get a clear vision of the sky. So as we're driving up, it's all these fucking clouds. I'm like, oh, this sucks. It's gonna suck. We're driving all this. We're not gonna see any stars. We drive through the clouds because it's really high. And you get up to the top and you're above the clouds. And we got out of the car and my fucking jaw dropped. It was. Was nuts. It was the craziest image. And I. I've been there three times since. Never recreated it. There's always been cloud cover that's higher up. I just caught it the first time I went there at the absolute perfect. It changed my life. It changed my perspective on the universe itself because it felt like I was. It felt psychedelic. It felt like it was in a spaceship, like a convertible spaceship and I was looking through the windshield and we were flying through the cosmos and there was an impossible amount of stars in the sky. There wasn't a spot in the sky that wasn't filled with stars. The Milky Way was clear as day. It was bananas. That's what it looked like.

Ethan Hawke (112:18)

You didn't feel no. Like you were on a spaceship. You are on one. You realize it.

Joe Rogan (112:25)

Yeah, yeah.

Ethan Hawke (112:26)

Look at that. That's it.

Joe Rogan (112:27)

That's. Well, that's what it kind of looks like. But it was actually even more profound than that.

Ethan Hawke (112:31)

You know.

Joe Rogan (112:31)

That is the Keck Observatory.

Ethan Hawke (112:33)

You know when I was telling you about White Fang, my experience with. So I was out there. So this is 1989, right? I'm in Haines, Alaska. It's about 100 miles north of Juneau. There's no Internet. The mail comes once a week on Monday. If it's bad weather, the mail doesn't come till the next week. Right. I'm there for six months.

Ethan Hawke (112:55)

19 years old. There's nobody to talk to. I mean there's no co star.

Joe Rogan (113:00)

The only 19 year old there.

Ethan Hawke (113:02)

Listen, this the guy who was the production, you know, the, the production manager or whatever, he was hyper aa, right? And there's one bar in town and he told the manager if I was seen in there, he would shut it down.

Ethan Hawke (113:19)

There was nowhere else to go.

Joe Rogan (113:20)

What a dick.

Ethan Hawke (113:21)

I was like, I told the guy, I said, look, I'm not gonna drink. I got it. Like the stuntmen are hanging in there, all the other actors are hanging out in there. And I had nothing to do because I couldn't go in the one frickin bar, right? And for the first three months I was there, it was always dark, right? And then the second three months it was always light and it was just. But anyway, the point is I went on this long walk and I saw the aurora borealis by myself, you know. And I'd see it night after night. I just see the sky rippling and it was like. What you're talking about? It was like it Actually made me laugh.

Joe Rogan (113:59)

Wow.

Ethan Hawke (114:00)

You know, it just seemed. It was funny. It was like the cosmos was teasing you, going, oh, you think all this is real?

Joe Rogan (114:07)

Yeah.

Ethan Hawke (114:08)

I was like, I do. I do think it matters whether White Fang is a good movie. And then I just giggle, you know, And I was like, oh, you have no idea what's going on. And it was like you taught something you don't unsee.

Joe Rogan (114:22)

Yes.

Ethan Hawke (114:22)

You know, I still have, over my desk, I have a little postcard from Haines, Alaska. And it still comes to me in my dreams all the time. I'm back there.

Joe Rogan (114:31)

Wow. I think we're being robbed of that because of cities. Light pollution has robbed us of what? I think all of our ancestors always inherently observed. When nighttime came around, everybody realized, well, you're. You're a part of the infinite cosmos and there's magic to the universe, which is why there were so many people, you know, hundreds if not thousands of years ago that had these whimsical tales and these ideas of the importance of life and existence when they're in the most brutal moments of history, they're in the most brutal moments of life. Life or death.

Ethan Hawke (115:09)

Death.

Joe Rogan (115:10)

Hunter gatherers, warring tribes. But yet at night, you're presented with this impossible majesty of the cosmos above your every night. Now, today we have social media. This is your son. This is your star. You're staring at a stupid screen, and when you look up, you just see nothing but blackness because there's all these cities, skyscrapers.

Ethan Hawke (115:33)

Trickier phone.

Joe Rogan (115:34)

Exactly. It's blinded out the one thing that is like one of the most important, humbling, like, grounding experiences appearing at the cosmos.

Ethan Hawke (115:44)

Isn't it weird? It's so hard to be in a bad mood when you're looking at the stars. It's so hard to be in a bad mood when you're riding a bicycle and you feel the wind in your. I mean, it's just. It's funny, such a simple little thing, a stupid little invention, this bicycle. But you get in your. Ride around. It's very hard to stay in a bad mood if you spend two hours on a bicycle. Yeah. And there's so many things like that that we rob ourselves of. You know, I. I don't know even like, I find when I'm in nature, exercise, when I run outside and I'm running through the trees and I see a hawk and I see the wind blowing through, and I pass a farm with sheep, and I. It's like I come back from a long run. Hi. And I feel like I like Myself, you know, and in, in the city, I go to the gym and I got on one thing, highlights of all my sports teams that I love and they're blinking up and down. And then I got. The world is ending on all the news channels blinking up and down. And I got guys who are in better shape than me walking by and girls who are super hot walking by that I'm trying not to look at and be a good person. And I walk out of the damn gym and I hate myself. Myself, you know, I mean, I mean, I got some exercise, but it wasn't. I long for the country and I long, like.

Joe Rogan (117:00)

But anyway, it's certainly a different experience. Yeah.

Ethan Hawke (117:04)

Doing it outside, is that too much information?

Joe Rogan (117:06)

No, that's us, that's me, that's everybody. And you know, and the, the thing is, like, the gym wants to keep you occupied because then you'll, you'll show up more often. It won't be incredibly boring. If you go to a dank dungeon of a gym with, with nothing on the walls other than a small mirror that's covered with other people's spit.

Ethan Hawke (117:23)

You know, I think that's what we all liked in Rocky when he like goes, goes out into the Rocky 4. That's the one I'm thinking. That's the one I'm thinking. In the barn, it's freezing out and.

Joe Rogan (117:34)

It'S just him and he's carrying the log.

Joe Rogan (117:37)

Yeah, it's hilarious. Yeah. Well, we like the idea when, and, and I was gonna bring that up earlier when you were talking about immersing yourself in a role and preparing for a thing is one of the more romantic things to me about fighting. When, when I know that like when, like this past weekend there was a big ufc when a fighter goes into a camp, they go off somewhere, they leave their family behind, often for like two months at a time, and they just completely immerse themselves in preparation for this one thing that's going to happen. And every little thing that distracts you, robs you away from the potential of that one possible majestic performance, that one career defining performance which they're all chasing after. And for a championship level fighter, it's like the immense pressure and then this thing, this.

Joe Rogan (118:37)

You call it romantic because it is kind of romantic, this romantic task.

Ethan Hawke (118:42)

Oh, it's dedication to excellence.

Joe Rogan (118:44)

Yes, it's full dedication.

Ethan Hawke (118:46)

Full, complete dedication. The way that you're even talking about trying to do your interviews or trying to do your comedy, you're trying to be inside, but to have something. So I mean, I envy that when I read about fighters and the dedication, I really kind of long for that experience, that idea of going away. And I think there's something about. I've always. I don't know if you think this, but whenever I pass by a monastery, a convent, or some of these people who are dedicated to their spiritual calling so completely that they've isolated out all the noise of life.

Joe Rogan (119:21)

Yes.

Ethan Hawke (119:22)

I find I'm like. I'm really glad they exist. I'm glad. In the same way I feel about fighters, I feel like. I mean, with the fighters, I really envy it because. Because we all would like to test ourselves. How much could I dedicate myself?

Ethan Hawke (119:38)

Could I go to the next level? How far could I go? And I think that.

Ethan Hawke (119:44)

Oh, just singularity of focus. It feels really good. And there is something. I think, I love stories about fighters for just that. Just in. In the fact that it all rests on these X amount of minutes.

Joe Rogan (119:59)

Yeah. And chaos. And just.

Ethan Hawke (120:02)

What was it like?

Joe Rogan (120:04)

Was it like watching fighting? No fighting. Terrifying. Yeah.

Ethan Hawke (120:09)

Did you ever. Would you ever get to a place of waste when you ever get to the place where you're walking into the ring and you weren't afraid?

Joe Rogan (120:15)

No. If I did, I didn't perform well. There was a few times where I was overconfident, and I didn't perform well because I tricked myself into not being scared. So. Because I wasn't. Because I didn't like being nervous, so I tricked myself into thinking, I'm so good, I don't have to be nervous. And then I'd fought so many times, like, the problem is complacency. So if I probably. When I was competing, I probably had.

Joe Rogan (120:40)

Somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 fights in martial arts. And so I did nothing but that from age 15 to 21, just traveling around the country. And there was times where I did it so much that I was not nervous. And then I would go there, and I wouldn't fight well. And then I would go, why is I. Why I missed opportunities? Even if I won, I was, like, hypercritical. Even if I won, I just didn't. Like, I got hit when I shouldn't have got hit. Like something was off. I didn't perform that well. And I realized somewhere along the line, I think right around I was, like, probably 19 or 20. When I really started to figure it out, I was like, oh, you have to be scared. That thing that you're. You don't like, that's critical. It's critical to your performance because it keeps you on edge. You have to be nervous. You have to be. Mike Tyson talked about it. There's a fantastic video of Mike Tyson from his documentary where he's talking about his mindset leading to him getting into the ring and that, you know, he. He talks about. See if you can find that, James.

Ethan Hawke (121:40)

Me.

Joe Rogan (121:41)

It's excellent because this was Mike Tyson when he was Mike Tyson when he was the most terrifying heavyweight boxer that ever walked the face of the earth. There was a period of time over like two or three years where I don't think anybody has ever come close to Mike Tyson.

Ethan Hawke (121:56)

Yeah, I know that's true.

Joe Rogan (121:57)

He was just supreme. He was so good and so different than anybody before him. But it was also his mindset. He's a great scholar of history. You know, I had a fantastic conversation with him about Genghis Khan, and when we started talking about it, he knew Genghis Khan's real name. His real name was Temujin. He knew his history that, you know.

Ethan Hawke (122:18)

Such an interesting person.

Joe Rogan (122:20)

All his interviews, he knew that Genghis Khan's mother had been kidnapped by. On her wedding day, been kidnapped by a rival man and taken away and impregnated. And the man that she was supposed to marry. Marry, she never saw again. And then the Genghis Khan was born with a blood clot in his hand. He was holding on to a blood clot as he. As he was a young boy. And it was like a sign that he was going to be a great conqueror and a warrior. But listen, listen to this. I'm gonna have supreme confidence, but I'm scared to death.

Ethan Hawke (122:51)

I'm totally afraid. I'm afraid of everything. I'm afraid of losing. I'm afraid of being humiliated. Closer I get to a ring, the.

Joe Rogan (122:57)

More confident I get. Closer, the more confident I get.

Ethan Hawke (123:00)

All during my training, I've been afraid of this man. But as close I get to the ring, I'm more confident. Once I'm in the ring, I'm a God. No one could beat me.

Joe Rogan (123:11)

That's a abbreviated version of it. It's different in the. In the film. It's like a little bit more drawn out. Somebody edited that down for Instagram. But it's this thing where you would think, how could that guy be afraid? How is he afraid? He's Mike Tyson, and this is Mike Tyson in his prime. But you have to be afraid. You've got to be nervous. If you're not nervous, you're not going to perform well.

Ethan Hawke (123:31)

Well, it makes me think about earlier in our conversation when I was talking about, oh, you know, when I think about when I was young and I'd be really nervous and pretending I wasn't nervous. And that was the problem. And that now I said to you, I still experience it. I just know what to do. Yeah, you remember, like that. We were talking like that. What I was. What I know what to do is not to pretend that I'm not nervous.

Joe Rogan (123:55)

Right.

Ethan Hawke (123:56)

It's as simple as that. When he's saying, I'm afraid, that's very powerful. It's kind of the same, a different spin on what I'm saying about. It's okay to say, I don't know. You know, I am afraid. And.

Ethan Hawke (124:11)

There'S a great Sarah Bernhardt story about this young actress comes up to Sarah Bernhardt. She's this great actress from the previous, you know, a long time ago, but this before Sarah Bernhardt was about to go on stage, this young actress asked her to sign her program. Sarah Bernhardt took it, and her hands were shaking. And this young actress said, why are your hands shaking? And she was, I'm nervous. And the young person said, I'm never nervous when I act. Sarah Barnhart, when you know what you're doing, you will be.

Joe Rogan (124:44)

That's great.

Ethan Hawke (124:44)

And it's a part of, like, what you're talking about with your fighting, knowing that there's nothing wrong with anxiety and with nerves. They can be your friend. They are there. They are here to warn you, prepare you, make you train a little harder, make you think a little sharper. Treating it like, I'm embarrassed. I'm ashamed of being nervous. You know, Bill Russell apparently would, like, be sick to his stomach before every game. This is the most winning basketball player in history. He was still. And that's why he won so much.

Joe Rogan (125:16)

Right.

Ethan Hawke (125:17)

You know, you have to care.

Joe Rogan (125:19)

You have to care.

Ethan Hawke (125:20)

You. And then, strangely, what that Tyson clip gets at, if you can say that the closer you get to game moment, now you're not pretending, and you realize, oh, for me, it's. It's just a scene. It's just a play. It's just. I can handle. This is. You remember that jaguar paw And Apocalypto, when he has a moment, he's running through the woods and he's so afraid, and he realizes, this is my forest. You know, he's like, I don't. I don't have to be afraid in my forest. You know, I'll fight these guys. I don't want to stop running. It's a great moment in that movie. And I feel that way. When before I'm doing something. This last movie I did Blue Moon. Really, really challenging part. I had so much confidence when we were talking about making the movie. Then all of a sudden it was green lit and sort of. But like when I flew to the location and I saw the set and was like, oh, it was the weekend before we started, I got so nervous, I got sick. You know, I woke up in the middle of the night just in pools of sweat and.

Ethan Hawke (126:28)

My body was just like going, ethan, this is gonna. Are you ready? Are you ready? You know, and I would wake up, I had to get up so early to go to work. I'd wake up an hour and a half before or I was supposed like, I gotta go over these lines again. I gotta go over this. How is this character walking? What is he doing? What is he saying? Is this part ready? Is this thing ready? Do they know what they're doing on that shot? Is the cigars ready? All the things. What are the things that are gonna be that screw today up? How much can I see the day so that none of these things that might screw it up are gonna screw it up? And so I kind of know what he means when it comes to. You've passed through the fire. So when it comes to fighting, well, he's either gonna win or lose. It's gonna be okay. Okay. But you know, there's something powerful that anxiety can be.

Joe Rogan (127:15)

A great friend, his mentor. Customato, who was also a hypnotist. Yes. He was a psychologist. Yeah, he's a completely fascinating guy. He started hypnotizing Mike when he was 13. One of the things that he told Mike, he said, fear is like a fire. It can cook your food or it can burn your house down. It depends on how you control it.

Ethan Hawke (127:41)

I feel the same way about money, feel the same way about ego. It can be the fuel of a healthy life, but it has to be garden managed. Has to be managed really well. And it's sadly. Daily.

Joe Rogan (127:57)

Yeah, daily.

Ethan Hawke (127:58)

It's not like, you sure, we're both old enough to know. It's not like you have some breakthrough when you're 33. I've had breakthroughs. I feel like, oh, I get it, I get it, I get it, get it.

Joe Rogan (128:06)

And then the next day you don't get it.

Ethan Hawke (128:07)

It's gone.

Ethan Hawke (128:09)

You know, and it happens to you over and over again. And, and I. That's life, I think.

Joe Rogan (128:15)

Yes, that is life. Yeah. And that's. That's great for young people to hear because they think that there's going to come a point in time where they made it, where there's no fear. And I'm, I'm here to tell you, you don't want that. You don't want it. It's never going to come. And even if it did come, you don't want it. It's, it'll rob you of the exciting part of life.

Ethan Hawke (128:33)

You ever hear that Jim Carrey bit? Always makes you laugh. He's like, he wins the Golden Globe and he goes to bed at night, he's like, gosh, I'm a Golden Globe winner. What if I could be a two time Golden Globe winner? What if I could be a three? You know, the brain.

Joe Rogan (128:48)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ethan Hawke (128:49)

Brain always wants more.

Joe Rogan (128:50)

Always.

Ethan Hawke (128:50)

It's just, it can't stop it.

Joe Rogan (128:52)

That's why billionaires still work.

Ethan Hawke (128:54)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Why are they so miserable?

Joe Rogan (128:57)

Because it's just chasing numbers. You're chasing numbers.

Ethan Hawke (129:01)

One of the thing about, in the rooms that I've been in, in with a lot of money.

Ethan Hawke (129:07)

Compared to the rooms I've been in where there isn't a lot of money. If you compare the laughter.

Joe Rogan (129:12)

Right. Yeah.

Ethan Hawke (129:14)

It's no contest.

Joe Rogan (129:15)

Well, there's so much pressure involved in that, kind of.

Ethan Hawke (129:18)

So why would you want a house with no laughter? You know, I don't think they have.

Joe Rogan (129:23)

Options at that point. I think they're so locked into what.

Ethan Hawke (129:26)

They do and it's, it gets so competitive. Yeah, they get, I've seen guys like that who get so happy about a deal gone wrong. Right? Yeah, that, that's what, it's fascinating to me. I mean, it's like, I, I, wow, I didn't, I didn't. But because, because the inverse is true. If that makes you so happy, what happens if you lose that?

Joe Rogan (129:47)

Right.

Ethan Hawke (129:48)

Million bucks or whatever, 20 million.

Joe Rogan (129:50)

And it makes you happy for a brief amount of time. Because the reality is once you're wealthy, everything else is. My friend Brian said something to me a long time ago goes, oh, the only amount of money you want want is where you can go to a restaurant and not worry what the bill costs. Everything else is bullshit.

Ethan Hawke (130:04)

Well, I liken it to what happens if you get an offender bender. You know, I don't want to get in a fender bender and have a lot of trouble.

Joe Rogan (130:13)

Right.

Ethan Hawke (130:13)

Like, I want that to be taken care of. You don't, you don't want to not be able to pay your rent because you got a fender bender. You don't want your kid not to get their medicine because you got a fender bender. You know, like you need to have room, a little padding to, like. I've never. There's no expense. Vacation. An expensive vacation with my kids is not better than any vacation with my kids.

Joe Rogan (130:39)

Right, right, right, right.

Ethan Hawke (130:41)

Romance. Same thing.

Joe Rogan (130:43)

Yeah.

Ethan Hawke (130:44)

You know, you can spend a fortune on a romantic weekend. It's not as great as it is to get stuck in a car when it's a blizzard out and you listen to a great record and. And she looks beautiful and says something funny, and you both left. That's. You can't buy that.

Ethan Hawke (131:02)

But there's this feeling like you could.

Joe Rogan (131:04)

Well, our society puts so much emphasis on ultimate success. Like, who's the richest man in the world? Well, do you think the richest man in the world is happier than the 30th richest man in the world? They're all rich as fuck. Everything is available to them. It's all nonsense after that.

Ethan Hawke (131:21)

That.

Joe Rogan (131:21)

After a certain point, like, what are you doing? Why are you still working? Why are you still chasing zeros and ones? Like, what is the point? And what are you chasing? Me?

Ethan Hawke (131:31)

Yeah.

Joe Rogan (131:32)

I don't. I don't think I'm chasing anything. I. I try not to be. I just enjoy what I do. I try to.

Ethan Hawke (131:37)

That's. I don't relate to it because that's. That's what led me to the question is, like, I'm. Like, what am I chasing? You know, what I'm chasing.

Ethan Hawke (131:46)

What I said earlier, like, I.

Ethan Hawke (131:50)

The last thing I shot, we had a couple moments of grace, you know, just weird. Like, I can tell the crew's losing their lunch, and everybody's so happy with the take that we got. And it's kind of moving and, oh, it was perfect. And the light came through the window at the right time. And then Peter Dinklage said this hysterical thing, and he wasn't supposed to say it, but it worked out perfect. Cause then the other actress, then she responded in that way, and then my hat fell off, and everybody's. And it's just. It's high. And I drive home and I want to tell everybody, and I can't wait for the world to see it. You know, I am chasing that. Like, could that happen again? Yeah. You know, but it's not something I control. It's not something.

Ethan Hawke (132:33)

That it's a feeling I'm chasing.

Joe Rogan (132:36)

But it's a tangible thing. It's not status or money. It's. You're chasing. You're doing, you know, for lack of a better word, art. You know, and art has a sort of a pretentious air. To it. A lot of people, you know, there's. There's certain words that have been sort of co opted, but the art of.

Ethan Hawke (132:55)

Creation, the art doing something you would never. I mean, I know you're exactly right. And it happens to me all the time. And it bothers me that what. What people think is pretentious and what people. If I say to you, you know, I really want to make $100 million, nobody says I'm pretentious. Right, right. If I say, you know, I really like to make something. To make something beautiful that really moves people, what a pretentious ass.

Joe Rogan (133:18)

Right, right.

Ethan Hawke (133:18)

Why is it. What I was going to say was, well, you go first.

Joe Rogan (133:21)

It's sincerity. Because some people say that and they don't mean it. And that's most of the people that say that.

Ethan Hawke (133:26)

And that's the problem. But what I was going to say is, like if you're. You say 15, 14, your daughter, your youngest 15. Yeah. If you came home, said, and she had made this crazy collage, and it was combining pictures of her friends from high school and this beautiful watercolor that she did around it. And she sprinkled glue on it and dropped sparkles on it and put it in a weird wood frame that her mother had given her that she liked. And she said, isn't it beautiful, dad?

Ethan Hawke (133:57)

Would you ever say that's pretentious?

Joe Rogan (134:00)

Of course not.

Ethan Hawke (134:01)

Of course not. But the goal. When somebody says the word art to me, I don't hear pretend pretentious. I hear the solar system.

Joe Rogan (134:10)

Yeah.

Ethan Hawke (134:10)

I hear, like human creativity inside of us, man. It is inside me and it's inside you. And when I see a great movie or when I hear Jimi Hendrix rip a killer solo.

Joe Rogan (134:22)

Yeah.

Ethan Hawke (134:23)

Then my whole body vibrates. Oh, hey, we're alive.

Joe Rogan (134:25)

Yes.

Ethan Hawke (134:26)

You know when Johnny Cash comes out with a sound you've never heard before, when it's a great rap song, you're like, I got to hear that again. I feel my heartbeat with that. That's art. It's not pretentious. It's real. And so I feel that way very strongly. And that makes me want to go to set. And that makes me not care whether the movie makes a billion dollars, it makes 2 cents. There's a great one of the great old English actor Paul Schofield. I'm gonna destroy this quote, but it was in his obituary. And he was in this great movie when I was a kid, man for All Seasons. And he was in Red Quiz show. And he was a great English actor. And when he died, in his obituary, there was an interview with him. He said, you were performing King Lear at your local church. At the end, why weren't you doing it on the West End? You know, because you were. You were healthy enough. They were asking, why are you doing. He was doing a play at a local church near him. He said, I really like walking to work. And I've realized that I really have always only performed for whoever it is that made me. And I can do that anywhere. I can do it on Broadway. I can do it in a Robert Redford movie, and I can do it in my local theater. It's the same action. And it's taken me a lifetime to realize that it doesn't. I just love to do it. And he's like, and I'd like to walk to work, so I'm not going to West End. And. And I thought, I love this guy. Yeah.

Joe Rogan (135:53)

You know, well, that is real, pure security. Yeah. When you're. You're not chasing any prestige.

Ethan Hawke (135:59)

You're.

Joe Rogan (135:59)

You're only doing it for the thing.

Ethan Hawke (136:01)

And I bet there are people that he loved there, of course. Other people you're doing it for.

Joe Rogan (136:07)

Yeah, of course.

Ethan Hawke (136:09)

Yeah.

Joe Rogan (136:09)

And it's probably more purity to it, knowing that it's not going to be reviewed in the New York Times. It's like you're doing something that you're only doing it for the love of it.

Ethan Hawke (136:19)

And if you want to be. Be. If you want to play pro ball, you know, there's certain things, you know, if you're, you know, the Augie the Great. He used to coach for UT baseball. His great thing. That he'd say that why he didn't coach the Yankees or the Red Sox, because he won five NCAA championships. See, the problem is with pro ball, the object of the game is to win. And in college sports.

Ethan Hawke (136:49)

My job is to develop young men. And if I do that right, we will win. But it's. I like the priority. And I feel like if the priority is my own development, you know.

Joe Rogan (137:03)

Yeah.

Ethan Hawke (137:03)

Then more times than not, something good will happen. If my priority is to win, make cash, be a big shot, blah, blah, blah. I've kind of lost. Why you should play this game. Yeah. You know, 100%. And the trick for me is, well, I do want to be a professional actor. I like. I like being relevant. I like making relevant art. I like talking to people and communicating with people. So you have to figure out that balance of, like, all right, this is how I pay my bills. This is, you know, what facilitates all my whole life So I have to.

Ethan Hawke (137:39)

Be a little attentive to the professional part of my brain and not let it diminish the kid in me.

Joe Rogan (137:45)

Yes.

Ethan Hawke (137:45)

You know, and to keep them both in some kind of balance.

Joe Rogan (137:50)

Yes.

Ethan Hawke (137:50)

And that's. For me, been my adult life, the.

Joe Rogan (137:53)

Term developing men or developing people, developing young people. My martial arts instructor, when I was a young boy, he. There was like a pamphlet that they had released explaining what the classes were all about. And in it, one of the quotes that always stuck with me forever is, martial arts are a vehicle for developing your human potential.

Ethan Hawke (138:15)

So is acting.

Joe Rogan (138:16)

Yeah. Surprise. So is anything. So is playing chess.

Ethan Hawke (138:18)

Yeah.

Joe Rogan (138:19)

So is playing music.

Ethan Hawke (138:20)

So is Carpenter.

Joe Rogan (138:21)

If you do it right, Everything.

Ethan Hawke (138:22)

Everything. Yeah.

Joe Rogan (138:23)

Miyamoto Musashi, the famous samurai, had a great quote once you understand the way broadly, you can see it in all things.

Joe Rogan (138:31)

Yeah.

Ethan Hawke (138:32)

I carry that Zen in the art of motorcycle maintenance. That's the same idea.

Joe Rogan (138:36)

Yeah. There's. It's the. The real. The real beauty of it all is concentrating on the development of the thing. And in that thing, you will grow as a human.

Ethan Hawke (138:47)

And that's the thing. When we're talking about boxing or fighting or acting or whatever, the thing about the 100% focus is.

Ethan Hawke (138:56)

It'S kind of.

Ethan Hawke (139:00)

By shedding everything. There's a discipline to that. About seeing all the little details. I find, for example, in acting, they always talk about this. Is he a good listener? Like one of the things, like, are you responding naturally like a human being? Can you listen in the art of teaching myself about acting, about how to be present with my scene partner. I've learned how to be present with you with my kids when I'm at a baseball game with my friends.

Joe Rogan (139:30)

Right, right.

Ethan Hawke (139:31)

It actually, like, it's meaning. I'm taking the same idea that if you train to do a fight well and you really feel what excellence at that level is like, you can feel it in other things. It can translate. You know what sloppy thinking is. If you've been relaxed while you're doing something hard, you know what it's like when you're tense because you're not having that feeling that you had in that fight where you were really great. That's the same with my. I've done performances where it goes up all by itself, and it's an amazing feeling. A lot of work and preparation is to go into that feeling of disappearing. But now I know when it's not happening, and it doesn't mean I can make it happen, but at least an awareness that it's not happening is A great starting place to go. Why is it not happening right?

Joe Rogan (140:21)

Something smells.

Ethan Hawke (140:22)

Something smells like Phil would say.

Joe Rogan (140:24)

Yeah, yeah. I wanted to talk to you about, because Jamie brought this up yesterday. Denzel Washington, when you're doing Training Day, like, so much. Apparently, Jamie was saying of the dialogue that you guys had was completely improvised by Denzel.

Ethan Hawke (140:40)

He is an astonishing. I mean, it's like.

Ethan Hawke (140:47)

Yes. The short answer to your question is it was.

Ethan Hawke (140:51)

We would be doing ride around, you know, in the back of these cop cars, watching these arrests, or talking to some of these people who really lived the life that we were doing. And they would say something really funny, you know, And I would just see Denzel, like, glance at me, and I realized, oh, that just went in the computer, you know, and then it would come out, you know, in a scene two months later. That line that that guy said. Exactly. It would come out.

Ethan Hawke (141:20)

It was a great script. I don't want to. David Ayer wrote the script. It's a phenomenal script. I mean, when I read that script.

Ethan Hawke (141:26)

I wanted that part so badly. Denzel's one of my favorite actors. He is probably my favorite actor. I think, you know, Malcolm X and Raging Bull are two towering. Maybe Nicholson, One Flew the Cuckoo's Nest. Like, Liv is like the three great performances of my lifetime.

Ethan Hawke (141:48)

But.

Ethan Hawke (141:50)

He'S always listening, always listening, talking, asking, thinking, curious, so present, so commanding. And if you take responsibility for your own work.

Ethan Hawke (142:08)

You can have a great experience. And if you don't, he'll run you over.

Joe Rogan (142:14)

Like, I heard, like, king Kong ain't got shit on me. That was all just completely improvised.

Ethan Hawke (142:19)

So it's like towards the last day of the shoot, and I had been. When people say improvised, they think, oh, just some magic lightning bolt happened. It's months of work. It was improvised. He's just supposed to yell fuck you, or something as I'm walking away. And this monologue flew out of his mouth. You know, y' all gonna be playing for the Pelican Bay All Stars. This is my neighborhood. Y' all just live here. King Kong ain't got nothing on me. Just all this stuff was. And it was. It was the last day of shooting or third to last day or something. It was all his prep. Just, this is. Here's. Here's a line that didn't make the movie. Here's another line that didn't make the movie. Here's another thing I wanted to say. Here's another thing. And he just started throwing them all out there. And I. I shit you not, man. I'm the shots, it's on me. I'm walking out of the. You know, walking away from me, screaming all this stuff. And that's when I say I'm chasing a feeling. Like that's one of the. I mean, to just be there that day, you know, to watch a. You know, a great. Somebody's working on a different level than everybody else. You know, he's. He. You know, he makes all of us look like we're mastering checkers, you know, and. And he's. And to. But to be there and be part of the magic. And I knew where I. I'd heard him audition some of those lines. Other places, you know, we'd run lines together and he'd try this. He was. He was amazing. Amazing. That's what I mean about the power of his imagination. He was Alonzo. And anything that he would pick up or hear would go into the computer and then it would. He would look for the ways that it could help the script look. Look for ways. You know, he wasn't.

Ethan Hawke (144:04)

You know, he wasn't putting. Selfishly tearing the sale up to make it about him. He was always looking to help. I even remember he came to the set the day I have this scene that he's not in with the Cholo Gang, you know, and they're. We're playing cards and, you know, you read your shit pushed in that scene, you know, where they put me in the bathtub. And Denzel came to set and he watched the scene. He was like, damn. I'm like, what? This is gonna be the best scene in the movie. And I'm not in it. Hate this scene. It was funny. He walked away.

Ethan Hawke (144:39)

It was very gracious. I mean, he was all in that movie.

Joe Rogan (144:42)

Yeah. That's awesome. That's awesome. Ethan. Thank you very much, man. This is a really fun conversation. I really enjoyed it.

Ethan Hawke (144:48)

I'm really glad you had me.

Joe Rogan (144:50)

Thank you. And thank you for all the movies, man.

Ethan Hawke (144:52)

Enjoy the out. If you can't tell. It's been my pleasure.

Joe Rogan (144:55)

Thank you. It's been mine as well. Thank you. Bye, everybody.