Podcast Summary: The Joe Rogan Experience #2432 – Derek Hamilton (Guest: Josh Dubin)
Date: December 30, 2025
Host: Joe Rogan
Guest: Derek Hamilton (Legal Advocate, Perlmutter Center for Legal Justice)
Note: Although the official guest is billed as Josh Dubin, this episode features Derek Hamilton in conversation with Rogan.
Episode Overview
This episode delves deep into the world of wrongful convictions, criminal justice reform, forensic science, and the complexities of clemency and the pardon process. Derek Hamilton, a seasoned legal advocate, shares harrowing stories from his career—ranging from bizarre forensic mishaps to systemic failures that ruin lives. The conversation also veers into immigration, the consequences of the war on drugs, drug policy, the psychological toll of the work, and moments of levity about controlled substances, addiction, and even boxing.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
1. The Nonlinear World of Wrongful Conviction Work
[00:30–01:36]
- Derek Hamilton explains that after years in post-conviction work, cases only get "more nutty and bizarre" rather than more routine.
- Quote: “You would start to see fact patterns and situations repeat. …the more you do it, the more nutty and bizarre it gets.” – Hamilton [00:30]
2. Admitting Fault and the Psychology of Denial
[01:24–05:32]
- Discussing Malcolm Gladwell's book on corporate denial—the opioid crisis as a case study.
- The legal system's frequent aversion to admitting mistakes, often driven by a need to avoid liability or public humiliation.
- Quote: “People don't like to admit they're wrong ever, especially when it comes to something as crazy as a pharmaceutical drug company releasing some opioid that's going to kill a million people.” – Rogan [03:31]
3. Perlmutter Case: Forensic Science and Legal Abuse
[05:56–20:54]
- A detailed account of the "Perlmutter DNA Theft" case, where DNA evidence was mishandled and misrepresented, leading to years of defamation.
- DNA (once seen as the “holy grail”) is subject to error and bias, especially when unqualified individuals are involved.
- Quote: “You can’t have private citizens running around trying to collect people’s DNA without knowing what they’re doing.” – Hamilton [17:38]
- The Perlmutter Center for Legal Justice was founded as a result of this ordeal (see [31:50]).
- The case resulted in a $50 million verdict for the victims.
Key Segment Timestamps
- DNA forensic error explained: [09:15–12:34]
- Case outcome and verdict: [14:26–32:54]
- The broader implications for science and privacy.
4. Wrongful Convictions, Systemic Corruption, and Psychological Toll
[35:47–53:09]
- Recounting egregious cases of wrongful imprisonment (e.g., Nelson Cruz, wrongly convicted due to corrupt detectives).
- Quote: “Some people have bad luck, shitty luck, or cataclysmic fucking apocalyptically bad luck. And Nelson Cruz just happens to have, you know, won that lottery.” – Hamilton [41:17]
- The psychological devastation for the wrongfully convicted, who often spend decades in prison (ex. Nelson Cruz: 26 years [51:40]).
5. Immigration, Clemency, and the "Human Mess"
[53:12–69:30]
- The case of an Albanian immigrant facing deportation after 51 years—a man with a violent but arguably justified conviction in his 20s, now a model citizen and grandfather.
- Quote: “Isn’t that the type of person we want who has contributed to this society for 51 years and built a family?” – Hamilton [59:41]
- The rigidity and opacity of immigration and clemency systems, and the seemingly arbitrary nature of who is “deserving” of relief or pardon.
- Discussion about the political influences on pardons, with Rogan and Hamilton noting the frustrating, opaque process (see [69:30–73:50]).
6. Racial Disparities, Clemency Failures, and Drug Sentences
[73:50–97:22]
- The story of Michael Giles, sentenced to 25 years after a clear-cut self-defense case, stymied clemency process by Governor Ron DeSantis.
- Quote: “For no fucking articulated reason, he said, you know what? I've changed my mind. That is brutal. It's evil, in my opinion.” – Hamilton [87:07]
- Exposing institutional racism through a whistleblower memo linking criminal history and ethnicity to harsher sentences. [93:30]
- Quote: “If no criminal history, diversion... If extensive criminal history and Or Hispanic adjudicated Guilty plus costs and. Or extensive criminal history. And. Or Hispanic. And Hispanic is in capital letters.” – Jamie reads memo [93:30]
- Onerous drug sentences, their disproportionate racial impact, and the broader injustice of aging inmates serving time for now-legal or minor drug offenses.
7. Drug Policy, Legalization, and Historical Context
[99:41–140:29]
- The debate around marijuana rescheduling and its cultural and legal history.
- Hamilton and Rogan discuss the economic and racist origins of marijuana prohibition (especially William Randolph Hearst’s lobbying).
- Quote: “William Randolph Hearst recognizes this as a threat to his industry because he owns paper mills… So he starts demonizing this plant called marijuana, this new drug.” – Rogan [110:03]
- Broader conversations about the failed war on drugs, the case for decriminalization/legalization, and unintended consequences (e.g., propping up cartels).
- Quote: "When you make things illegal, all you do is prop up illegal people to sell those things to people who want it." – Rogan [105:53]
8. The Human Side of the Justice System & Systemic Stubbornness
[141:03–150:19]
- The continued horror of wrongful convictions (the Ohio Four case), the lengths prosecutors go to avoid admitting error, and the potential for public action.
- Quote: “One thing that people don't like is to have the light on them… I'm going to bring people with me and we're gonna make as much noise.” – Hamilton [145:27]
- The corrupting influence of authority and power, and the need for conscience and self-reflection.
9. Mental Health, Psychedelics, and Alternative Therapy
[150:20–166:10]
- Discussion on psychedelics (mushrooms, ayahuasca, ketamine) as tools for trauma therapy and psychological healing, their legal and cultural hurdles, and experiential anecdotes.
- Hamilton describes his positive experience with supervised ketamine treatment and EMDR therapy for trauma.
- Quote: “I have to tell you, it was one of the most painful, agonizing things I had ever done. And it was the most religious experience I had ever had.” (on EMDR) – Hamilton [161:02]
10. Martial Arts, Sports, and Cultural Moments
[166:10–173:01]
- The show closes with a discussion of boxing (Jake Paul vs. Anthony Joshua), the spectacle of crossover fights, and the cultural moments surrounding big sporting events.
Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments
On Admitting Fault
- “Nothing at all. Good. It's actually a show of strength. And people that don't recognize that, they just believe that they're never wrong… So they just don't admit it.” – Rogan [05:08]
On Forensic Science
- “DNA is supposed to be the Holy grail. And you can't have private citizens running around trying to collect people's DNA without knowing what they're doing.” – Hamilton [17:38]
On Political Influence of Pardons
- "It's an amazing responsibility and it's kind of an awesome power to have. And how you go about exercising it becomes challenging." – Hamilton [69:46]
On Systemic Failures
- "Some people start to believe their own lies. I think some people start to believe their own theories. Human psychology is like... It's vast and abstract and so complicated." – Hamilton [34:01]
On Legal Immunity
- “One of the most frustrating things in the world is that most of the time qualified immunity applies.” – Hamilton [78:50]
On Drug Laws
- “I just feel like... like there's no... what's the right way to explain it? There's no rhyme or reason to why we're leaving old people that have not much left locked up.” – Hamilton [130:18]
On the Power of Conscience
- “I don't understand, I guess, the disconnect between having that realization and just saying it or actually taking, like, a pause.” – Hamilton [149:54]
Important Segment Timestamps
- Admitting Fault & Gladwell’s Insight: [00:30–05:32]
- Perlmutter DNA Case (Forensic Science): [05:56–20:54]
- Wrongful Convictions, Nelson Cruz Story: [35:47–53:09]
- Immigrant Facing Deportation: [53:12–69:30]
- Clemency & Pardons (Michael Giles, policy problems): [73:50–97:22]
- Drug Policy, History, Legalization: [99:41–140:29]
- Systemic Stubbornness in Justice: [141:03–150:19]
- Psychedelics & Therapy: [150:20–166:10]
- Boxing (Jake Paul vs. Anthony Joshua): [166:10–173:01]
Tone and Language
The conversation flows between intense, heartfelt testimonies and Rogan’s characteristic irreverence and humor. Both speakers are passionate, with Hamilton openly emotional about his work. The episode combines legal analysis, personal storytelling, policy critique, and relatable asides.
Takeaway for Listeners
If you care about criminal justice reform, legal science, or are curious about the human toll—and hope—within the American legal system, this episode is an insightful, at times heartbreaking, but ultimately human conversation. Derek Hamilton’s advocacy is illuminated with tangible case studies and the realities faced by those wrongfully caught in the web of law, while Rogan’s broad curiosity and willingness to discuss policy, psychology, and therapy keeps the episode dynamic and wide-ranging.
For more details, read the public records and support organizations fighting wrongful convictions.